nooblet wrote:

How does the HD mod affect pp - I know it's the easiest mod, so it's reasonable that it'd add very little (or none) pp for a score. My question is, just how small is this amount? Is it worth dropping a regular SS/99+% to a silver 98~%, or would that just decrease PP? I understand accuracy plays a huge role in the new system (I like it that way ), so would the 1% out-weigh the HD mod, since accuracy affects PP exponentially close to SS?

Some maps are more difficult with HD, but imo getting 96% with HD on almost any map is a walk in the park compared to a 99+%/SS no-mod (yes I know there are exceptions, hence the almost), and the SS is easily out-scored by a mile. I know pp is not score-based, I'm just trying to say if the HD turns out to give more score and less PP it's almost impossible to go back unless you match the no-mod's accuracy with HD, which usually turns out to be a pain.

I don't know exactly how it's been done here, but I assume it's the same treatment as on tp (aim/speed/acc score attributes).

HD affects your aim score, not your accuracy score, and will give you more bonus on maps with higher aim requirements. This can outweigh accuracy loss on maps which are easy to get accuracy, or alternatively very hard to aim on (aim > acc), getting away with a few % less. However, maps with a higher accuracy requirement than aim, will be negatively affected by losing any accuracy, even with HD's aim bonus (which will be very small in comparison to accuracy). In this case, 1% is enough to knock a Silver S below a nomod S.

RaneFire wrote:

I don't know exactly how it's been done here, but I assume it's the same treatment as on tp (aim/speed/acc score attributes).

HD affects your aim score, not your accuracy score, and will give you more bonus on maps with higher aim requirements. This can outweigh accuracy loss on maps which are easy to get accuracy, or alternatively very hard to aim on (aim > acc), getting away with a few % less. However, maps with a higher accuracy requirement than aim, will be negatively affected by losing any accuracy, even with HD's aim bonus (which will be very small in comparison to accuracy). In this case, 1% is enough to knock a Silver S below a nomod S.

Thanks, that seems to be the case. I just tested it out, 94% S'd Remote Control (95 aim according to tp) compared to my previous 96% and got 9 PP

Are there any plans to include tp's difficulty calculator into the pp system? (Miiight be the wrong thread to ask this in, if so sorry)

RaneFire wrote:

nooblet wrote:

How does the HD mod affect pp - I know it's the easiest mod, so it's reasonable that it'd add very little (or none) pp for a score. My question is, just how small is this amount? Is it worth dropping a regular SS/99+% to a silver 98~%, or would that just decrease PP? I understand accuracy plays a huge role in the new system (I like it that way ), so would the 1% out-weigh the HD mod, since accuracy affects PP exponentially close to SS?

Some maps are more difficult with HD, but imo getting 96% with HD on almost any map is a walk in the park compared to a 99+%/SS no-mod (yes I know there are exceptions, hence the almost), and the SS is easily out-scored by a mile. I know pp is not score-based, I'm just trying to say if the HD turns out to give more score and less PP it's almost impossible to go back unless you match the no-mod's accuracy with HD, which usually turns out to be a pain.

I don't know exactly how it's been done here, but I assume it's the same treatment as on tp (aim/speed/acc score attributes).

HD affects your aim score, not your accuracy score, and will give you more bonus on maps with higher aim requirements. This can outweigh accuracy loss on maps which are easy to get accuracy, or alternatively very hard to aim on (aim > acc), getting away with a few % less. However, maps with a higher accuracy requirement than aim, will be negatively affected by losing any accuracy, even with HD's aim bonus (which will be very small in comparison to accuracy). In this case, 1% is enough to knock a Silver S below a nomod S.

Actually HD does affect accuracy a tiny bit on tp but it's only really noticeable if you get the same accuracy with and without HD.

Almost wrote:

Actually HD does affect accuracy a tiny bit on tp but it's only really noticeable if you get the same accuracy with and without HD.

I've read the tp info and it says that "non-map-changing mods, Hidden and FlashLight, add a flat percentage bonus to the aim difficulty." I also went to find a map with an HD SS and a no-mod SS and the accuracy scores are the same. http://osutp.net/scores?bid=223397

Mathsma wrote:

Almost wrote:

Actually HD does affect accuracy a tiny bit on tp but it's only really noticeable if you get the same accuracy with and without HD.

I've read the tp info and it says that "non-map-changing mods, Hidden and FlashLight, add a flat percentage bonus to the aim difficulty." I also went to find a map with an HD SS and a no-mod SS and the accuracy scores are the same. http://osutp.net/scores?bid=223397

Depends on the map probably because I found a few maps where the accuracy was increased because of HD such as http://osutp.net/scores?bid=66105

silmarilen wrote:

Dalvoid wrote:

As a player with not that high a ranking I just want to say: it feels downright depressing to beat a score in your top 10 (I've done this 4 times today) and then not only not gain pp for it, but also have it drop from your top 10. it seems like this is happening because of accuracy being worse, but the fact that we cant choose which score is considered combined with the fact that higherscore=/= most pp anymore is INCREDIBLY frustrating. I feel like there's no point trying to fc things i haven't before or using mods because even if I manage a better score (the point of a rhythm game?) I might not necessarily see any gain from it. It feels like I'm being punished for trying to beat my score not rewarded.
EDIT: I just checked one of the situations where a rank dropped from my top 10. I played https://osu.ppy.sh/b/281672 and had an A rank 300ish combo FC being 584. This popped into my top 10 today for some reason (the score was old so i assumed from reshuffling of how the maps are measured). Anyway, i then proceeded to FC the map with a HIGHER accuracy, and now it is GONE from my top 10. No mods were used in either playthrough. Please someone explain this makes no sense to me.

it's still there man, what the hell are you smoking?

yeah seems i was being impatient with the updates, BUT, it DID dissapear for about 2 hours before suddenly reappearing which i find very strange. i shoulda screenshotted i spose, but i dont see how that can be due to a delayed update. Obviously the system updated, because it was removed from my top 10, then updated again later and put it back

EDIT Tom94 already covered this, caused by server downtime or something last night.

It's an odd case, but Winshley's SSH on paraparaMAX I seems a little underrated (at least on osu!tp), given the length and all. I suppose it's also hard to programmatically identify the occasional map where HD is harder than HR.

RaneFire wrote:

nooblet wrote:

How does the HD mod affect pp - I know it's the easiest mod, so it's reasonable that it'd add very little (or none) pp for a score. My question is, just how small is this amount? Is it worth dropping a regular SS/99+% to a silver 98~%, or would that just decrease PP? I understand accuracy plays a huge role in the new system (I like it that way ), so would the 1% out-weigh the HD mod, since accuracy affects PP exponentially close to SS?

Some maps are more difficult with HD, but imo getting 96% with HD on almost any map is a walk in the park compared to a 99+%/SS no-mod (yes I know there are exceptions, hence the almost), and the SS is easily out-scored by a mile. I know pp is not score-based, I'm just trying to say if the HD turns out to give more score and less PP it's almost impossible to go back unless you match the no-mod's accuracy with HD, which usually turns out to be a pain.

I don't know exactly how it's been done here, but I assume it's the same treatment as on tp (aim/speed/acc score attributes).

HD affects your aim score, not your accuracy score, and will give you more bonus on maps with higher aim requirements. This can outweigh accuracy loss on maps which are easy to get accuracy, or alternatively very hard to aim on (aim > acc), getting away with a few % less. However, maps with a higher accuracy requirement than aim, will be negatively affected by losing any accuracy, even with HD's aim bonus (which will be very small in comparison to accuracy). In this case, 1% is enough to knock a Silver S below a nomod S.

not sure where the changes are, but seems like ppv2 calculates HD slightly higher than tp does: http://puu.sh/6Ezcq.png

this game suddenly got a lot more fun when i turned off mouse acceleration. (no more frustrating overshoots)

The new pp system makes me feel so accomplished for no reason. LOL good jobs

Well, this isn't really feedback and i have no obligations on the new PP update, i'm just wondering because I had PP:5 (yeah I suck) but now i have 118.
How does that work?

kamiyo-sama wrote:

not sure where the changes are, but seems like ppv2 calculates HD slightly higher than tp does: http://puu.sh/6Ezcq.png

May not be due to tp's implementation, but rather the pp side of things. We'll have to wait for the wiki and see, but I'm guessing that there's still mod-weightings. Your HD,DT score is probably higher because there are less DT's in general on "Rainbow after snow" than there are on "Magic Girl". Although "Magic Girl" is a way more popular and contested map, I wonder how much of this is a factor.

On another note:

If you browse the "beatmap difficulty" page here, there are a lot of maps that should not be there, but for some reason they are considered difficult... It's weird; "Molella" map, "Wonderland", "Tori no Uta" feature on the 9th page sorted by difficulty with maps like "VALLIS-NERIA", "Jiyuu no Tsubasa", "Ningen Shikkaku", "Intersect Thunderbolt", which are obviously way harder than the former 3. (Haven't checked them all)

There's something weird going on, because this opens up farming by difficulty when there are maps that shouldn't be in that position. And they do give a considerable amount of pp, since I played them myself.

Almost wrote:

Mathsma wrote:

I've read the tp info and it says that "non-map-changing mods, Hidden and FlashLight, add a flat percentage bonus to the aim difficulty." I also went to find a map with an HD SS and a no-mod SS and the accuracy scores are the same. http://osutp.net/scores?bid=223397

Depends on the map probably because I found a few maps where the accuracy was increased because of HD such as http://osutp.net/scores?bid=66105

The bonus to accuracy that HD gives is only a few percent. Unless the map gives a lot of accuracy tp already, you won't see any difference and even if it gives a lot of acc tp the difference is going to be like 2tp. http://osutp.net/scores?bid=98496 compare Mercurius and Gokuri

accuracy players suffer a lot from the new system

yes I've suffered so much

being #3 instead of #2 is injustice

thelewa wrote:

yes I've suffered so much

being #3 instead of #2 is injustice

pls

thelewa wrote:

yes I've suffered so much

being #3 instead of #2 is injustice

petition pls

After seeing a few score examples on HD in the last posts I definitely feel like the accuracy bonus is way too small. On most maps the difference between a no HD and a HD score with the same Acc value is less than 0.5%.

thelewa wrote:

http://osutp.net/scores?bid=98496 compare Mercurius and Gokuri

It's even more astounding that Gokuris 99.38% HR score gives more Acc value than ShadowSouls 99.28% HDHR score. I don't know how much HD should boost accuracy, but as it is in osutp (don't know if it's the same in pp right now) seems disproportional.

Yes, please weigh hidden a lot more, because obviously you have to re-learn rhythm and accuracy when playing hidden. nomod od and hidden od are like 2 different worlds.

Playing with hidden is as if the od has been doubled.

not a lot more, but it should be weighed a bit more to at least be noticeable for less skilled players

Well, that system seems to work much better than previous one, but it's still far from perfect.
So i have a few complaints there:
1)Top score ranks on maps doesn't give anything at all, even 1's is worthless. You should definitely add pp boost for highscores,so we will see more competition for high ranks especially on hard maps.
For example:
Top 50 - 2% pp boost
Top 10 - 5% pp boost
Top 1 - 15% pp boost
2)Hidden should affect accuracy much more.
3)Short maps and fullscreen jumps - OP.
4)If anyone can farm pp without even getting in top50, how you will ever been able to track down cheaters?
5)Waiting for pattern difficulty recognition.

Somehow some good scores (on rather difficult maps) I did yesterday are simply not showing up in my history. I'm not sure whether or not they are simply not showing up but are still counted or if those scores did actually disappear.

RaneFire wrote:

If you browse the "beatmap difficulty" page here, there are a lot of maps that should not be there, but for some reason they are considered difficult... It's weird; "Molella" map, "Wonderland", "Tori no Uta" feature on the 9th page sorted by difficulty with maps like "VALLIS-NERIA", "Jiyuu no Tsubasa", "Ningen Shikkaku", "Intersect Thunderbolt", which are obviously way harder than the former 3. (Haven't checked them all)

There's something weird going on, because this opens up farming by difficulty when there are maps that shouldn't be in that position. And they do give a considerable amount of pp, since I played them myself.

The difficulty calculations are far from perfect, and they will continue to get tweaked in the future. Keep in mind, that a lot of this is very subjective, though, and you might find maps easier, that others find harder. Gotta agree with you on most of the examples, that you called, though.

electrolytes wrote:

It's an odd case, but Winshley's SSH on paraparaMAX I seems a little underrated (at least on osu!tp), given the length and all. I suppose it's also hard to programmatically identify the occasional map where HD is harder than HR.

I'm not exactly sure how fair it'd be to further increase the map-length bonuses cap. Will consider it for the future.

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

Are there any plans to include tp's difficulty calculator into the pp system? (Miiight be the wrong thread to ask this in, if so sorry)

It is included to a very high degree.

anticlone111 wrote:

Well, that system seems to work much better than previous one, but it's still far from perfect.
So i have a few complaints there:
1)Top score ranks on maps doesn't give anything at all, even 1's is worthless. You should definitely add pp boost for highscores,so we will see more competition for high ranks especially on hard maps.
For example:
Top 50 - 2% pp boost
Top 10 - 5% pp boost
Top 1 - 15% pp boost
2)Hidden should affect accuracy much more.
3)Short maps and fullscreen jumps - OP.
4)If anyone can farm pp without even getting in top50, how you will ever been able to track down cheaters?
5)Waiting for pattern difficulty recognition.

1) That would add way more complexity to the algorithm, making it a lot harder to consider every score (since then every score has to be periodically checked for which rank it is). In addition to that - as mentioned multiple times - contest on maps is different. For instance way more good players play [Insane] maps than [Hard] maps and thus what you suggest would boost [Hard] maps without any solid reason.
2) Also answering all the other people who gave feedback on this: I disagree, that hidden should affect accuracy more. Playing with the rhythm of the map is not very connected to reading the map. The small bonus is gives to accuracy is only there to make up for rare pattern misreads, that might occur while playing with it.
3) Many long maps are worth more than short maps of equivalent difficulty. See chipscape or fallen world. The reason why you see mostly top-pp scores on short maps, is because there exist more short maps. On top of that many players seem to prefer to rank on those, since it's also easier. :p
4) I think it should be common sense, that if the pp algorithm can look at sub-top50 scores, then other things can do, too.
5) Planned, but it might take a while to arrive. This has a lower priority than getting the other gamemodes implemented.

Why on earth would this take my rank down by 1, obviously it isn't about accuracy since the accuracy was about 5% above my average and it is a rather difficult map... Is there such a thing implemented now as raking pp down o.0

What probably happened is, you didn't gain pp for your play, so you stayed where you were before. However, in the time it took you to finish the map, a different player surpassed your pp, thus dropping you by a rank.
Finishing the map was not the cause for your rank drop, activity by other players was.

Tom94 wrote:

1) That would add way more complexity to the algorithm, making it a lot harder to consider every score (since then every score has to be periodically checked for which rank it is). In addition to that - as mentioned multiple times - contest on maps is different. For instance way more good players play [Insane] maps than [Hard] maps and thus what you suggest would boost [Hard] maps without any solid reason.

You still can add pp bonus only for 1'st places, that doesn't seems to add too much complexity.Why would it would boost hard maps, if hard maps already weighted lower and i am talking about percentage pp boost.
And doesn't many cheaters get caught only because of user reports?

anticlone111 wrote:

You still can add pp bonus only for 1'st places, that doesn't seems to add too much complexity.Why would it would boost hard maps, if hard maps already weighted lower and i am talking about percentage pp boost.
And doesn't many cheaters get caught only because of user reports?

Even a bonus for 1st places only would make it easier to get pp on hard maps compared to how it is right now - by a bigger ratio than it would benefit insanes. You can verify the maths if you want, I don't want to dip into specifics.
Regarding your second point - you don't have to worry about it. There won't be more specific answers to that.

anticlone111 wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

1) That would add way more complexity to the algorithm, making it a lot harder to consider every score (since then every score has to be periodically checked for which rank it is). In addition to that - as mentioned multiple times - contest on maps is different. For instance way more good players play [Insane] maps than [Hard] maps and thus what you suggest would boost [Hard] maps without any solid reason.

You still can add pp bonus only for 1'st places, that doesn't seems to add too much complexity.Why would it would boost hard maps, if hard maps already weighted lower and i am talking about percentage pp boost.
And doesn't many cheaters get caught only because of user reports?

Giving a pp bonus while taking rank into consideration is just illogical with the score system.
You might have a lower acc but still have a higher score, so you get a pp bonus for being worse. (both are fcs)

..Why would you do that.

rank on maps has nothing to do with contest anyway
it's not like if you get #1 on a certain map you're the #1 player in the world who can play that map better than everybody else, it just means rrtyui didn't play it yet

high rank on maps does not equal "you played this map better than many other players".
high rank on maps equals "players who are good enough to play this map way better than you find it boring and don't bother wasting time on it".

a good ranking system simply rates people high based on random plays they do without forcing people to have to play maps they don't like just to get a higher rank (which is also known as farming)

Aqo wrote:

rank on maps has nothing to do with contest anyway
it's not like if you get #1 on a certain map you're the #1 player in the world who can play that map better than everybody else, it just means rrtyui didn't play it yet

I laughed. That's a good point though. generally I think it's been pretty frustrating to gain a good score on a map that's highly contested and you gained nothing for it because it depended too much on rank. In reverse, I felt pretty bad when I played a map that was barely contested. I've had the feeling that my pp was undeserved. So rank shouldn't correlate with pp at all, I totally agree.

Overall:
I really like the new system. It's always been pretty irritating to see people above me in rank that have only played Easy and Normal maps while I bothered to learn playing Insanes (well ofc it was much more fun). My "Best Performances" are pretty accurate, too. Some of those were rather lucky FC's or high combos I definitely couldn't do every day. While there are some minor points to improve (like difficulty calculating on some maps, but that's what you're gonna take care of), I'm very satisfied.

And by the way, did you recently change that you don't have to get a top score to gain pp? I've recently had a try which resulted in 98% accu whereas my FC try had only about 94-95% and I gained pp and accu incrase even though it was neither an FC nor a top score.

pp doesn't take score into consideration because all ranks count towards pp now

Kert wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/269963?m=0 - random DT gives more points than
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/96095?m=0 with HR

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/49067?m=0 gives way too much points, cosnsidering it's a lot easier than any of the above

In general I feel that DT gives qute a lot more than it should and HR on really small circles isn't as rewarding

And also FL?
FL is not favoured at all?
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/18156 - this must be one of my top plays, yet it's nowhere close
(my assumption is results are ordered almost in the same way as in tp)

This

buny wrote:

pp doesn't take score into consideration because all ranks count towards pp now

Maybe I wasn't clear enough or maybe I didn't quite understand just now, dunno. I meant the local top score. Some days ago I've read about complaints that you need a local top score to gain pp even though you might do something that is more impressive but it doesn't give any pp since it's not your personal top score or you might even lose pp because of a higher score. For example you have:

10 million pts., 800 combo, 94%, afterwards you have a try with
8 million pts., 700 combo, 98%.
The second try gave no pp, even though you were actually better on the map.

Or you have:
8.5 million pts., 700 combo, 93%, DT, afterwards you'll have
12 million pts., 900 combo, 99%, nomod.
And you lose a bunch of pp.

Those kinds of things were complained about. And I recently experienced that things didn't happen like that.
So I wondered if that's been changed.

Omgforz wrote:

Yes, please weigh hidden a lot more, because obviously you have to re-learn rhythm and accuracy when playing hidden. nomod od and hidden od are like 2 different worlds.

Playing with hidden is as if the od has been doubled.

I agree but hidden is pretty easy if you train it. Not doubled but something like 0.8 maybe

Ziggo wrote:

It's even more astounding that Gokuris 99.38% HR score gives more Acc value than ShadowSouls 99.28% HDHR score. I don't know how much HD should boost accuracy, but as it is in osutp (don't know if it's the same in pp right now) seems disproportional.

About the acc value:

RaneFire wrote:

HD affects your aim score, not your accuracy score, and will give you more bonus on maps with higher aim requirements. This can outweigh accuracy loss on maps which are easy to get accuracy, or alternatively very hard to aim on (aim > acc), getting away with a few % less. However, maps with a higher accuracy requirement than aim, will be negatively affected by losing any accuracy, even with HD's aim bonus (which will be very small in comparison to accuracy). In this case, 1% is enough to knock a Silver S below a nomod S.

Illus wrote:

[...] And I recently experienced that things didn't happen like that.
So I wondered if that's been changed.

What you experienced was probably connected to another score you made previously. Your online top-score in a particular map is still the only score that counts towards your pp on that map.

make hidden weight like this -> if a score is less 1% of the other score with hidden with will give less pp like this :
no mod 98 > with hidden 97 < worst
or this hr 98 < hr with hd 97,50 < better

tell me what you think of this pls

Illus wrote:

buny wrote:

pp doesn't take score into consideration because all ranks count towards pp now

Maybe I wasn't clear enough or maybe I didn't quite understand just now, dunno. I meant the local top score. Some days ago I've read about complaints that you need a local top score to gain pp even though you might do something that is more impressive but it doesn't give any pp since it's not your personal top score or you might even lose pp because of a higher score. For example you have:

10 million pts., 800 combo, 94%, afterwards you have a try with
8 million pts., 700 combo, 98%.
The second try gave no pp, even though you were actually better on the map.

Or you have:
8.5 million pts., 700 combo, 93%, DT, afterwards you'll have
12 million pts., 900 combo, 99%, nomod.
And you lose a bunch of pp.

Those kinds of things were complained about. And I recently experienced that things didn't happen like that.
So I wondered if that's been changed.

sorry i missed a bit of your previous post

but yeah you're correct. it'll only change if peppy added a system that would calculate the amount of pp that a score would gain and sort by that or if we could pick the score that we want to submit online

i like the suggestion someone had where we have the ability to delete completely a score of ours if we chose.

Tom94 wrote:

2) Also answering all the other people who gave feedback on this: I disagree, that hidden should affect accuracy more. Playing with the rhythm of the map is not very connected to reading the map. The small bonus is gives to accuracy is only there to make up for rare pattern misreads, that might occur while playing with it.

I guess what you're saying might be true for high level players, I can't tell. For low level players this might be different, though. Let me give you an example on that.

When I manage to get 98% no mod on a certain map, I will probably get about 96% with HD. With 95% no mod, I will get about 91% with HD. With 90% no mod, I will get about 83% with HD. So the lower my initial accuracy is, the more HD will lower my accuracy. To counter this, HD should maybe give a relative bonus according to the achieved accuracy, instead of a static multiplication bonus. That way high level plays with high accuracy will not be influenced, but HD keeps being viable on lower levels. What do you guys think about that?

Just order the rankings according to the amount of pp obtained instead of score. It would solve the main issues i have with the current pp.

Performance shouldn't be upped with HD when you can't play it anyway, so let the HD players have a reasonable bonus for doing well, not badly. It's just a different way of reading, as opposed to approach circles.

Many players argue that HD is just as easy as nomod once you learn to play it (trap notes aside). So how do you rate skill? The bonus was given to aim, but I still don't know if that's the right place. It seems like a patch-solution.

There is also the problem that some people play a map nomod and move on, setting hundreds of nomod ranks. But you also get people who use HD all the time and do the same. This is almost as bad as Hards vs Insanes, where different people play HD, compared to those who play nomod, and is almost impossible to compare the two other than to say the non-HD players have less skill because they can't play a mod, but by how much? Surely once they learn to play HD, they will be just as good if not better, but they're not interested.

I'm one of these people who never really delved into HD because it's not the challenge I'm looking for. When I mess up, it's not like my rhythm was bad, or my aim was bad, it's because I didn't fucking see the circle there, or saw it a bit late, putting my timing off, and that just annoys me so I don't play it much. I know I can get better at it, but why bother. I'm fine with a few less ranks, but if I learned to play HD really well, what then? I gained no mechanical skills by doing so, I just learned to read it, like AR10 doesn't give any bonus compared to AR9/8, because it's subjective. You just need to learn to read it. It is hard to rate something by it's obfuscation, which is HD and FL (memorisation).

Ziggo wrote:

With 95% no mod, I will get about 91% with HD. With 90% no mod, I will get about 83% with HD. So the lower my initial accuracy is, the more HD will lower my accuracy.

This translates to: the less you can read the map, the more HD would expose the fact that you can't read it as you will no longer be able to catch stuff you couldn't read ahead by their approach circles. The system is supposed to rate you for how well you can play, and not compensate you for stuff you can't play.

Aqo wrote:

Ziggo wrote:

With 95% no mod, I will get about 91% with HD. With 90% no mod, I will get about 83% with HD. So the lower my initial accuracy is, the more HD will lower my accuracy.

This translates to: the less you can read the map, the more HD would expose the fact that you can't read it as you will no longer be able to catch stuff you couldn't read ahead by their approach circles. The system is supposed to rate you for how well you can play, and not compensate you for stuff you can't play.

Uhm, no? This happens even if I can read 100% of the map. It's just that hitting accurately without approach circles is way harder when you are barely able to play a certain OD.

If you are "barely able to play" it then you're not in a state you can say you can read the map 100%.

Aqo wrote:

If you are "barely able to play" it then you're not in a state you can say you can read the map 100%.

I was only talking about the OD right there. Anyway, if it's a reading problem, then this would just support my proposal even more. Like Tom said, the current Acc bonus for HD is to compensate reading errors. So on scores with more reading errors the Acc bonus should be higher as well.

RaneFire wrote:

[...]

This is why I don't understand why HR and HD have the same rate score.
And I can said the same for DT and FL.

Mods have to be balanced imo, because they aren't.

Ziggo, you're supposed to read accuracy by the music, not by looking at approach circles. If you play correctly HD has no impact on acc reading difficulty ;v only on the positions where you land, which is why aim makes sense.

Aqo wrote:

Ziggo, you're supposed to read accuracy by the music, not by looking at approach circles. If you play correctly HD has no impact on acc reading difficulty ;v only on the positions where you land, which is why aim makes sense.

100% agree. I have absolutely no problem with hd accuracy. Aim is more of a problem

Omgforz wrote:

Yes, please weigh hidden a lot more, because obviously you have to re-learn rhythm and accuracy when playing hidden. nomod od and hidden od are like 2 different worlds.

Playing with hidden is as if the od has been doubled.

are you for real

Just a little suggestion here

It would be cool and useful if you added some details on the Top Performance, like the mods




the algorithm seems working very well (btw, when will it be open?)

Sephibro wrote:

SPOILER

Just a little suggestion here

It would be cool and useful if you added some details on the Top Performance, like the mods




the algorithm seems working very well (btw, when will it be open?)

I can't give any answers regarding your first suggestion yet. The algorithm will be openly described in a wiki artivle, which I will write as soon as I have the time. I am currently very busy with personal things and the wiki article has the highest priority directly followed by pp for the other gamemodes of what I will be doing afterwards. ETA for the wiki article is in a bit over a week.

MiniTokki wrote:

RaneFire wrote:

[...]

This is why I don't understand why HR and HD have the same rate score.
And I can said the same for DT and FL.

Mods have to be balanced imo, because they aren't.

Those bonuses don't really mean anything in terms of rank any more. The only reason why they aren't changed is because it's too late to change them.

Ziggo wrote:

When I manage to get 98% no mod on a certain map, I will probably get about 96% with HD. With 95% no mod, I will get about 91% with HD. With 90% no mod, I will get about 83% with HD. So the lower my initial accuracy is, the more HD will lower my accuracy. To counter this, HD should maybe give a relative bonus according to the achieved accuracy, instead of a static multiplication bonus. That way high level plays with high accuracy will not be influenced, but HD keeps being viable on lower levels. What do you guys think about that?

Some players can get better accuracy on HD than they can without it so it would more likely unbalance the system.

Wait a second, so only your best score would get recorded for pp?

WubWoofWolf got about a 500 combo on Remote Control with HD and DT, but getting full combo on no mod would get him a higher score but less pp. So if he max combo'd with no mod FIRST (hypothetically) and then got about a 500 on HD and DT, would that not count for pp? Because on his profile even that low score counted for a ton.

Shenanigans wrote:

Wait a second, so only your best score would get recorded for pp?

WubWoofWolf got about a 500 combo on Remote Control with HD and DT, but getting full combo on no mod would get him a higher score but less pp. So if he max combo'd with no mod FIRST (hypothetically) and then got about a 500 on HD and DT, would that not count for pp? Because on his profile even that low score counted for a ton.

He would lose pp if he beats the score without DT. If he had a non-DT score the DT score wouldn't count.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/33695?m=0
Gives toooooo much pp. It has beaten all my best pp scores which is funny

Full Tablet wrote:

Shenanigans wrote:

Wait a second, so only your best score would get recorded for pp?

WubWoofWolf got about a 500 combo on Remote Control with HD and DT, but getting full combo on no mod would get him a higher score but less pp. So if he max combo'd with no mod FIRST (hypothetically) and then got about a 500 on HD and DT, would that not count for pp? Because on his profile even that low score counted for a ton.

He would lose pp if he beats the score without DT. If he had a non-DT score the DT score wouldn't count.

That seems like a slightly flawed system. I noticed the same thing before ppv2 with high accuracy and no mod vs low accuracy and DT

Soarezi wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Ziggo, you're supposed to read accuracy by the music, not by looking at approach circles. If you play correctly HD has no impact on acc reading difficulty ;v only on the positions where you land, which is why aim makes sense.

100% agree. I have absolutely no problem with hd accuracy. Aim is more of a problem

Why would it influence your aim but not your accuracy? If your timing is the same and the position of the circles is the same... I don't get it, guess I'm just weird or something.

HoboEater wrote:

That seems like a slightly flawed system. I noticed the same thing before ppv2 with high accuracy and no mod vs low accuracy and DT

This has been discussed multiple times in this thread already. It's a known issue which I wish could be resolve, but it's not as easy as it seems, dealing wiith the huge amount of scores that exist.
Only keeping your best pp scores is also not a good option, because pp is an ever-changing system, where changes might often make a previous score worth more suddenly.

The system feels like it weighs high accuracy too heavily over actual map difficulty.

Mickiemoemoe wrote:

The system feels like it weighs high accuracy too heavily over actual map difficulty.

It's the exact opposite for me, so I guess it depends on your personal strengths.

Mickiemoemoe wrote:

The system feels like it weighs high accuracy too heavily over actual map difficulty.

that was the issue of peppy's ppv2

that system was like get SS or take a cancer
1x100 was worth nothing, SS was lightyears more rewarding, that was just COMPLETELY RETARDED.. it also was one of the flaws ppv1 had (ppv1 didn't have so many flaws btw), but it was much much less silly than peppy's ppv2

it's clear that this system has been thought by a good player who knows what's the real "hard" in this game

Ziggo wrote:

Why would it influence your aim but not your accuracy? If your timing is the same and the position of the circles is the same... I don't get it, guess I'm just weird or something.

Hidden forces you to "remember" where circles are so you aren't all accurate in positioning your cursor with it. It's also a lot harder to play things that are difficult for you to read with hidden on and a large part of aim is being able to read. Accuracy on the other hand doesn't really get affected at all since OD is unaffected. The only more difficult to accuracy things are the ones with poor flow and sections that require a large amount of guess work (and it's only really harder on sight reading most of the time).

Sephibro wrote:

(ppv1 didn't have so many flaws btw)

ppv1 had so many flaws...

Kind of enjoying a nice consistent rise in ranks but what I'm not so sure about is how I can spend ages working on a really hard beatmap and when I finally complete it it doesn't count anything towards my pp at all. But if I go and find the easiest beatmap I have, wack on a few mods and get a good score really easily, that gives me loads of pp. Don't quite understand that at all :/

[ Zetka ] wrote:

Kind of enjoying a nice consistent rise in ranks but what I'm not so sure about is how I can spend ages working on a really hard beatmap and when I finally complete it it doesn't count anything towards my pp at all. But if I go and find the easiest beatmap I have, wack on a few mods and get a good score really easily, that gives me loads of pp. Don't quite understand that at all :/

Barely passing a hard beatmap might not reward you as much pp as getting a good score on an easier one.

Brian OA wrote:

Barely passing a hard beatmap might not reward you as much pp as getting a good score on an easier one.

Yes that is what I've found, what I mean is it when it takes a really tough performance to complete a hard beatmap you get 0 pp but when it takes 0 effort to get a good score on an easy beatmapyou get loads of pp, so the fact they're called performance points isn't making much sense to me

[ Zetka ] wrote:

Brian OA wrote:

Barely passing a hard beatmap might not reward you as much pp as getting a good score on an easier one.

Yes that is what I've found, what I mean is it when it takes a really tough performance to complete a hard beatmap you get 0 pp but when it takes 0 effort to get a good score on an easy beatmapyou get loads of pp, so the fact they're called performance points isn't making much sense to me

Yet when you get a good score on the hard beatmap you'll get much more than the easy one.

Look at it this way: the system rewards good performance, and your performance on both maps aren't the same. You did poorly on the hard beatmap, so there'd be no sense in rewarding you for it. However, you did well on the easy one, so there's a reward for you. You've effectively gotten every pp that score was worth. The thing is the same can't be said of the hard map.

When will Flashlight and the other mods change their points?

didn't recive a single point for that. ty tom and peppy -.-

Well, #962 doesn't look like a particularly good performance

Luna wrote:

Well, #962 doesn't look like a particularly good performance

but for 12k noob like me... and its pluto dude.

pp is designed to reward good performance on maps. While it might be harder, to just pass a very hard map compared to full-comboing an easy map, you still perform badly on that particular hard map when just barely passing.

If you want to gain more pp, then go for full combos and high accuracy on the maps where you can barely achieve those.

Edit: Seems like I overlooked Brian OA's previously reply. He formulated it pretty well:

Brian OA wrote:

Look at it this way: the system rewards good performance, and your performance on both maps aren't the same. You did poorly on the hard beatmap, so there'd be no sense in rewarding you for it. However, you did well on the easy one, so there's a reward for you. You've effectively gotten every pp that score was worth. The thing is the same can't be said of the hard map.

Current system seems like a relatively fun and fair one.
However, I don't quite understand how I got a big load of PP from https://osu.ppy.sh/b/136649?m=0 (Insane) by getting rank #2573, 96,02% acc and 379 combo (out of the possible 777). Does the system consider that map difficult enough to give a rank 19k a lot of PP even if the performance is really not that good? I'm very confused.

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ks- wrote:

Current system seems like a relatively fun and fair one.
However, I don't quite understand how I got a big load of PP from https://osu.ppy.sh/b/136649?m=0 (Insane) by getting rank #2573, 96,02% acc and 379 combo (out of the possible 777). Does the system consider that map difficult enough to give a rank 19k a lot of PP even if the performance is really not that good? I'm very confused.

Yes.

Rank (insert #2573 here) is not considered. It gauges your performance on an individual basis using the map difficulty algorithm. If that was a good play, you'll get rewarded, whether the map is highly contested and putting you down 2500 ranks or not.

I still think that HD weighted too lightly...
It can be hard for HD in maps
i) have both 1/2 , 1/3 , 1/4 music spacing (the change half a beat and a third of a beat throws people off)
ii) maps that have poor flow
iii) maps with jumps
iv) old maps (before 2010) (they've got strange spacing and strange beats)
IN those cases, HD should be weighted a lot more because it's significantly harder to play those maps with HD
Even in normal cases, HD is weighted far too lightly. A bonus of about 3% is just too small for most maps.
I think that HD should be weighted to about 5-6%, as a bonus for people who play HD

Also, the EZ mod should be rewarded, not punished, because it's actually harder to play with EZ than without...
(IN maps with high AR, it is impossible to play EZ)

What's more is that FL mod should also be rewarded more as in most cases it's incredibly hard to play FL
(if you don't use multiscreens)

That's all for now, thanks for listening
p.s. A great thanks to Tom for the new ppv2!

It's significantly harder to play those maps with HD only if you can't play HD

HD doesn't change anything, it's the same map, with the same OD AR CS and HP drain, if you play by listening the music it won't change much, except for stacks that are harder to read

2GoldenWolf

Airman is only hard if you can't aim it, so why not weight it lightly?
HD removes quite a lot of visual information which makes it very hard on lower AR, so it should influence aiming quite a lot on old maps.
Oh wait, I forgot, if someone finds it easy due to training then it doesn't matter.

Except learning HD is QUITE easier than learning how to aim airman's jumps


HD doesn't make things much harder if at all, the actual bonus seems enough

dennischan wrote:

SPOILER

I still think that HD weighted too lightly...
It can be hard for HD in maps
i) have both 1/2 , 1/3 , 1/4 music spacing (the change half a beat and a third of a beat throws people off)
ii) maps that have poor flow
iii) maps with jumps
iv) old maps (before 2010) (they've got strange spacing and strange beats)
IN those cases, HD should be weighted a lot more because it's significantly harder to play those maps with HD
Even in normal cases, HD is weighted far too lightly. A bonus of about 3% is just too small for most maps.
I think that HD should be weighted to about 5-6%, as a bonus for people who play HD

Also, the EZ mod should be rewarded, not punished, because it's actually harder to play with EZ than without...
(IN maps with high AR, it is impossible to play EZ)

What's more is that FL mod should also be rewarded more as in most cases it's incredibly hard to play FL
(if you don't use multiscreens)

That's all for now, thanks for listening
p.s. A great thanks to Tom for the new ppv2!

HD was used to give cheap n' easy PP for pretty much no work on most maps. It is treated as such in ppv2, because this is a rating of skill, not freebies.
As for your "hard in HD maps"...
i) Pretty much all maps have 1/2 and 1/4, and an occasional 1/3 where you just have to LISTEN and REMEMBER where it is in the music. Probably can't do it the first time, but who seriously sight reads with HD all the time? Maybe for fun or on easy maps, but seriously, it's not that hard to remember a few parts.
ii) Poor flow as in... Can't keep up, too many jumps?
iii) Lol
iv) ppv2 is designed for newer maps and they even TELL you to play the newer maps, why complain about it when they already mentioned it?

The hard parts in HD, are maps with a ridiculous amount of stacks, back-and-forth jumping (Even something easy like Ha-tenya becomes ridiculously annoying) or hidden circles under/after/between sliders (Heaven's Race Guitar Style?)

FL is rewarded where fit. As Tom previously said, FL gives a whopping 36% bonus when it's hard to play. Most maps with FL records are ones that are easy, hence the low reward value.

StormR1d3r wrote:

Airman is only hard if you can't aim it, so why not weight it lightly?

What.

2nooblet

Make a map full of jumps on AR6 and a speed on which you can hit 200-300 notes nomod in a combo before it becomes too hard to maintain it, then try to see if you can get the same amount of hits with HD and give us results. You'll see that HD makes jumps harder.

Yes, of course HD increases difficulty if you haven't learned to read HD.
That doesn't mean its bonus should be increased; it already gives a fair amount in a jumpy map (I mean I played a beatmap I had previously fc'd without pp gain with HD added on and got a nice amount from it...)

Learning to play HD is easy.

HD is hard on ultra low AR maps which are non-existent, and on most of them you just add HR.

HD already gets a huge bonus for lower ARs starting small at 8 and going big as you approach 0 and even the below-0 ones possibly with HalfTime.

Without the AR-bonus HD already gives 18% more aim pp! That's quite a lot and I don't see any reason to increase it any further. Of course Hidden won't give you a lot of pp if you have to sacrifice a lot of accuracy for it or if the map you are playing doesn't require much aim.

ok, thanks for explaining

RaneFire wrote:

ks- wrote:

Current system seems like a relatively fun and fair one.
However, I don't quite understand how I got a big load of PP from https://osu.ppy.sh/b/136649?m=0 (Insane) by getting rank #2573, 96,02% acc and 379 combo (out of the possible 777). Does the system consider that map difficult enough to give a rank 19k a lot of PP even if the performance is really not that good? I'm very confused.

Yes.

Rank (insert #2573 here) is not considered. It gauges your performance on an individual basis using the map difficulty algorithm. If that was a good play, you'll get rewarded, whether the map is highly contested and putting you down 2500 ranks or not.

I see. Thank you for the clarification.

StormR1d3r wrote:

2nooblet

Make a map full of jumps on AR6 and a speed on which you can hit 200-300 notes nomod in a combo before it becomes too hard to maintain it, then try to see if you can get the same amount of hits with HD and give us results. You'll see that HD makes jumps harder.

Wishy wrote:

Learning to play HD is easy.

HD is hard on ultra low AR maps which are non-existent, and on most of them you just add HR.

What Wishy said, or you're talking about [easy] or [normal] diffs if you're saying AR6. In that case, the specifics in PP probably don't affect them as much anyways, so just play harder maps if you want PP. There's no real point for doing a difficult AR6 map...

Wishy wrote:

Learning to play HD is easy.

HD is hard on ultra low AR maps which are non-existent, and on most of them you just add HR.

I'd like to see someone play Chocobo with HR.

I find chocobo is easier with HR. I can get further into the map with HR and with better acc/combo, than with nomod.

Give us a "Best performance" score list on the web pages in addition to the score ranking, please.

Nerf HD aim. Buff aim for higher BPMs. 18% aim bonus seems way too generous, especially when it starts beating out scores that are clearly far more difficult. More often than not it doesn't even feel like adding HD was *that* much harder.

nooblet wrote:

but who seriously sight reads with HD all the time?

I've been doing it for several months and it's worked out for me just fine.

imo, hidden is only really hard when you get circles underneath sliders, or tricky patterns. It makes them a LOT harder to read.
Here's the worst example of this I've ever seen: Hatsuki Yura - Intense Desire [Lunatic]. It's do-able on regular DT, but it's ridiculous on hidden DT, seriously.
It really depends on the map, because it could be a nightmare or it could be "free points". If there was a way to tell what maps are harder on hidden than others, that'd be brilliant.

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pielak213 wrote:

Hidden is also easier for some people.

Because some people find HD easier you want to nerf the bonus for everyone? Make sense.

I haven't really examined my scores when I did some TP farming 2 months ago, but from what I can tell is that mods give a huge bonus compared to no mod. And what I mean is that a 'no mod' map gives far less PP than it should compared to a random map with DT. I see a lot of maps with only a few FCs and it gives far less PP than a random DT map where the entire top 50 is DT.

I mean, a pretty easy 'Sayonara Goodbye' DT map is worth as much as an FC on Revolution Deathsquad. That's insanity to say the least. Nearly nobody is capable of FCing that map yet Sayonara Goodbye is completely filled with DT scores in the top 50.

GladiOol wrote:

I haven't really examined my scores when I did some TP farming 2 months ago, but from what I can tell is that mods give a huge bonus compared to no mod. And what I mean is that a 'no mod' map gives far less PP than it should compared to a random map with DT. I see a lot of maps with only a few FCs and it gives far less PP than a random DT map where the entire top 50 is DT.

I mean, a pretty easy 'Sayonara Goodbye' DT map is worth as much as an FC on Revolution Deathsquad. That's insanity to say the least. Nearly nobody is capable of FCing that map yet Sayonara Goodbye is completely filled with DT scores in the top 50.

Thanks for pointing that one out. Mods aren't getting any special treatment - they are simply applied to the map and then a new difficulty is calculated with the exact same algorithm that also runs on nomod maps. The revolution deathsquad vs 'Sayonara Goodbye' thingie is definitely something I need to address, though. It mostly is connected to the insanely high map-length, since the map itself would be as easy, if not easier than 'Sayonara Goodbye' if it had only a 717 max-combo.

Tom94 wrote:

Thanks for pointing that one out. Mods aren't getting any special treatment - they are simply applied to the map and then a new difficulty is calculated with the exact same algorithm that also runs on nomod maps. The revolution deathsquad vs 'Sayonara Goodbye' thingie is definitely something I need to address, though. It mostly is connected to the insanely high map-length, since the map itself would be as easy, if not easier than 'Sayonara Goodbye' if it had only a 717 max-combo.

It's a bit like strain values on attention span and nerves, isn't it? That and also all the spaced streams in dragonforce maps makes messing up your combo really easy because there's so much movement, the chance of being 1 note ahead/behind at some point is quite high.

The new system feels really accurate overall, although it does have several flaws as people mentioned here. I will try to list some of them:

1. Accuracy is overrated - I've noticed a lot of times that clearing really hard maps with accuracy lower than ~95% but with a pretty good score will not give you any performance points. For example, over 15m points on Adult's Toy(which is not easy to get a good score on) but with 88% accuracy will be counted as a bad play, and the same goes for getting over 20m on Dragonforce maps with less than 90% accuracy and similar other situations. It's like the algorithm automatically ignores every play under 90% which is just silly, imho.

2. Penalties - "There are no penalties for a bad performance" yeah right.. If you improve your score on a map(even if by a lot) but have like 2% less in terms of accuracy you WILL lose pp if you got pp for the previous score(accuracy overrated, anyone?). How stupid is that? I can recall a few times I lost between 5 to 10 pp after improving a score(from 3-4 mistakes to fc) but having 2-4% less. PP should not be reducible, especially if those said plays happen within 2 hours from each other. Not to mention this system heavily discourages trying to improve scores and FCing on maps that gave you pp because of the fear of losing your points if you don't manage to get the same accuracy or higher. If the new system has no problems giving you a second chance when you randomly miss and break your FC, why does it penalize you so hard if you randomly mess up a stream(happens to everyone) and get a few 50s?

3. FL is severely underrated - Just look at BluOxy and worst fl player. Need I say more?

Suggestions:
1. Give more weight to FL especially when it's FLDT or FLHD, it's a really hard mod
2. Weigh performance on maps using other things than accuracy. What I mean by that is don't automatically toss a play just because it's not a 95% accuracy play. I don't know if you're working on it already or something like that, but some maps are really hard to keep a combo on, and in those maps you should give a lot more weight to combo and less to accuracy. Combo:Accuracy rating ratio should NOT be global as it feels right now. It should change with each map.
3. Disable pp penalties. There is really no sense in reducing someone's pp because his accuracy got slightly lower, since if he managed to get his accuracy to make such a difference, there is no doubt he'll be able to do it again. And if you call on the "lucky play" card, well I can just as validly pull the "unlucky play" card, so it's really meaningless.

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