Yes.ks- wrote:
Current system seems like a relatively fun and fair one.
However, I don't quite understand how I got a big load of PP from https://osu.ppy.sh/b/136649?m=0 (Insane) by getting rank #2573, 96,02% acc and 379 combo (out of the possible 777). Does the system consider that map difficult enough to give a rank 19k a lot of PP even if the performance is really not that good? I'm very confused.
HD was used to give cheap n' easy PP for pretty much no work on most maps. It is treated as such in ppv2, because this is a rating of skill, not freebies.dennischan wrote:
SPOILERI still think that HD weighted too lightly...
It can be hard for HD in maps
i) have both 1/2 , 1/3 , 1/4 music spacing (the change half a beat and a third of a beat throws people off)
ii) maps that have poor flow
iii) maps with jumps
iv) old maps (before 2010) (they've got strange spacing and strange beats)
IN those cases, HD should be weighted a lot more because it's significantly harder to play those maps with HD
Even in normal cases, HD is weighted far too lightly. A bonus of about 3% is just too small for most maps.
I think that HD should be weighted to about 5-6%, as a bonus for people who play HD
Also, the EZ mod should be rewarded, not punished, because it's actually harder to play with EZ than without...
(IN maps with high AR, it is impossible to play EZ)
What's more is that FL mod should also be rewarded more as in most cases it's incredibly hard to play FL
(if you don't use multiscreens)
That's all for now, thanks for listening
p.s. A great thanks to Tom for the new ppv2!
What.StormR1d3r wrote:
Airman is only hard if you can't aim it, so why not weight it lightly?
I see. Thank you for the clarification.RaneFire wrote:
Yes.ks- wrote:
Current system seems like a relatively fun and fair one.
However, I don't quite understand how I got a big load of PP from https://osu.ppy.sh/b/136649?m=0 (Insane) by getting rank #2573, 96,02% acc and 379 combo (out of the possible 777). Does the system consider that map difficult enough to give a rank 19k a lot of PP even if the performance is really not that good? I'm very confused.
Rank (insert #2573 here) is not considered. It gauges your performance on an individual basis using the map difficulty algorithm. If that was a good play, you'll get rewarded, whether the map is highly contested and putting you down 2500 ranks or not.
StormR1d3r wrote:
2nooblet
Make a map full of jumps on AR6 and a speed on which you can hit 200-300 notes nomod in a combo before it becomes too hard to maintain it, then try to see if you can get the same amount of hits with HD and give us results. You'll see that HD makes jumps harder.
What Wishy said, or you're talking about [easy] or [normal] diffs if you're saying AR6. In that case, the specifics in PP probably don't affect them as much anyways, so just play harder maps if you want PP. There's no real point for doing a difficult AR6 map...Wishy wrote:
Learning to play HD is easy.
HD is hard on ultra low AR maps which are non-existent, and on most of them you just add HR.
I'd like to see someone play Chocobo with HR.Wishy wrote:
Learning to play HD is easy.
HD is hard on ultra low AR maps which are non-existent, and on most of them you just add HR.
I've been doing it for several months and it's worked out for me just fine.nooblet wrote:
but who seriously sight reads with HD all the time?
Because some people find HD easier you want to nerf the bonus for everyone? Make sense.pielak213 wrote:
Hidden is also easier for some people.
Thanks for pointing that one out. Mods aren't getting any special treatment - they are simply applied to the map and then a new difficulty is calculated with the exact same algorithm that also runs on nomod maps. The revolution deathsquad vs 'Sayonara Goodbye' thingie is definitely something I need to address, though. It mostly is connected to the insanely high map-length, since the map itself would be as easy, if not easier than 'Sayonara Goodbye' if it had only a 717 max-combo.GladiOol wrote:
I haven't really examined my scores when I did some TP farming 2 months ago, but from what I can tell is that mods give a huge bonus compared to no mod. And what I mean is that a 'no mod' map gives far less PP than it should compared to a random map with DT. I see a lot of maps with only a few FCs and it gives far less PP than a random DT map where the entire top 50 is DT.
I mean, a pretty easy 'Sayonara Goodbye' DT map is worth as much as an FC on Revolution Deathsquad. That's insanity to say the least. Nearly nobody is capable of FCing that map yet Sayonara Goodbye is completely filled with DT scores in the top 50.
It's a bit like strain values on attention span and nerves, isn't it? That and also all the spaced streams in dragonforce maps makes messing up your combo really easy because there's so much movement, the chance of being 1 note ahead/behind at some point is quite high.Tom94 wrote:
Thanks for pointing that one out. Mods aren't getting any special treatment - they are simply applied to the map and then a new difficulty is calculated with the exact same algorithm that also runs on nomod maps. The revolution deathsquad vs 'Sayonara Goodbye' thingie is definitely something I need to address, though. It mostly is connected to the insanely high map-length, since the map itself would be as easy, if not easier than 'Sayonara Goodbye' if it had only a 717 max-combo.
CookChefSteak wrote:
The new system feels really accurate overall, although it does have several flaws as people mentioned here. I will try to list some of them:
1. Accuracy is overrated - I've noticed a lot of times that clearing really hard maps with accuracy lower than ~95% but with a pretty good score will not give you any performance points. For example, over 15m points on Adult's Toy(which is not easy to get a good score on) but with 88% accuracy will be counted as a bad play, and the same goes for getting over 20m on Dragonforce maps with less than 90% accuracy and similar other situations. It's like the algorithm automatically ignores every play under 90% which is just silly, imho.
2. Penalties - "There are no penalties for a bad performance" yeah right.. If you improve your score on a map(even if by a lot) but have like 2% less in terms of accuracy you WILL lose pp if you got pp for the previous score(accuracy overrated, anyone?). How stupid is that? I can recall a few times I lost between 5 to 10 pp after improving a score(from 3-4 mistakes to fc) but having 2-4% less. PP should not be reducible, especially if those said plays happen within 2 hours from each other. Not to mention this system heavily discourages trying to improve scores and FCing on maps that gave you pp because of the fear of losing your points if you don't manage to get the same accuracy or higher. If the new system has no problems giving you a second chance when you randomly miss and break your FC, why does it penalize you so hard if you randomly mess up a stream(happens to everyone) and get a few 50s?
3. FL is severely underrated - Just look at BluOxy and worst fl player. Need I say more?
Suggestions:
1. Give more weight to FL especially when it's FLDT or FLHD, it's a really hard mod
2. Weigh performance on maps using other things than accuracy. What I mean by that is don't automatically toss a play just because it's not a 95% accuracy play. I don't know if you're working on it already or something like that, but some maps are really hard to keep a combo on, and in those maps you should give a lot more weight to combo and less to accuracy. Combo:Accuracy rating ratio should NOT be global as it feels right now. It should change with each map.
3. Disable pp penalties. There is really no sense in reducing someone's pp because his accuracy got slightly lower, since if he managed to get his accuracy to make such a difference, there is no doubt he'll be able to do it again. And if you call on the "lucky play" card, well I can just as validly pull the "unlucky play" card, so it's really meaningless.
1. If a certain map requires X amount of skills to get a decent score at and that X correlates to a certain pp range, then should pp gain not be expected when you are below that pp range and acquire such a score?Tom94 wrote:
CookChefSteak wrote:
The new system feels really accurate overall, although it does have several flaws as people mentioned here. I will try to list some of them:
1. Accuracy is overrated - I've noticed a lot of times that clearing really hard maps with accuracy lower than ~95% but with a pretty good score will not give you any performance points. For example, over 15m points on Adult's Toy(which is not easy to get a good score on) but with 88% accuracy will be counted as a bad play, and the same goes for getting over 20m on Dragonforce maps with less than 90% accuracy and similar other situations. It's like the algorithm automatically ignores every play under 90% which is just silly, imho.
2. Penalties - "There are no penalties for a bad performance" yeah right.. If you improve your score on a map(even if by a lot) but have like 2% less in terms of accuracy you WILL lose pp if you got pp for the previous score(accuracy overrated, anyone?). How stupid is that? I can recall a few times I lost between 5 to 10 pp after improving a score(from 3-4 mistakes to fc) but having 2-4% less. PP should not be reducible, especially if those said plays happen within 2 hours from each other. Not to mention this system heavily discourages trying to improve scores and FCing on maps that gave you pp because of the fear of losing your points if you don't manage to get the same accuracy or higher. If the new system has no problems giving you a second chance when you randomly miss and break your FC, why does it penalize you so hard if you randomly mess up a stream(happens to everyone) and get a few 50s?
3. FL is severely underrated - Just look at BluOxy and worst fl player. Need I say more?
Suggestions:
1. Give more weight to FL especially when it's FLDT or FLHD, it's a really hard mod
2. Weigh performance on maps using other things than accuracy. What I mean by that is don't automatically toss a play just because it's not a 95% accuracy play. I don't know if you're working on it already or something like that, but some maps are really hard to keep a combo on, and in those maps you should give a lot more weight to combo and less to accuracy. Combo:Accuracy rating ratio should NOT be global as it feels right now. It should change with each map.
3. Disable pp penalties. There is really no sense in reducing someone's pp because his accuracy got slightly lower, since if he managed to get his accuracy to make such a difference, there is no doubt he'll be able to do it again. And if you call on the "lucky play" card, well I can just as validly pull the "unlucky play" card, so it's really meaningless.
1. See point 2 below. I also want to remark, that the score itself, that you get on a particular play is not relevant. Your combo and your miss/50/100/300 are what is important. I also want to note, that having far-below FC is heavily punished by the system. You shouldn't expect to gain a lot of pp from maps that you can't get decent scores on just by them being hard (see adult's toy, dragonforce and such).
2. see below
3. see below
Your suggestions:
1. Is planned, will likely happen.
2. Accuracy is worth less than a third of your play in the general case. Could you provide specific cases where you believe it is overrated? Otherwise I'll have a hard time debugging. By the way, accuracy doesn't simply give you a factor. You can theoretically get 50% accuracy and if you FC a hard map you can still get a very huge amount of points. I'm not quite sure how to feel about this, since many other people claim accuracy to be worth too little. Combo:Accuracy never was global and it does scale (a lot) with maps.
3. This is not something that can be just "disabled". It's also not specific to pp. The scoring system simply works by only storing your highest score on a particular map. I'd love to see this limitation get lifted at some point, but even only having the highest scores is already an extremely huge amount of data to work with.
1. Of course. This is not exactly how the algorithm works but should yield a sufficient approximation. That being said, correctly judging X is the problem here.CookChefSteak wrote:
1. If a certain map requires X amount of skills to get a decent score at and that X correlates to a certain pp range, then should pp gain not be expected when you are below that pp range and acquire such a score?
2. As far as I've noticed, accuracy is weighed too heavily on any map below 1.5 minutes(or >1 minute with DT). Try looking at maps like Eggman's Theme on DT. I lost around 6 pp(out of overall 8) because I improved a score but had 2% less. Note the score I improved had 3-4 mistakes and the improvement was an FC, so it really makes no sense to me. That map shouldn't give that much pp anyways imho, it's too easy to fc on DT.
3. Wouldn't checking whether or not the newly calculated pp would be less or more than the old one be enough? I mean, the servers already store everybody's pp so you have all the data you need available for comparison. But then again, I don't know how the scoring system is programmed so I don't want to assume things.
this is the mapSaberBB wrote:
I want to ask that why I played a hard level map
with HD,HR, full combo
but no pp is added?
I played the map 32mins ago
OK....Tom94 wrote:
If you don't get pp then the system doesn't consider your score good enough. You can also get less than 1pp and not directly see it because of rounding. I won't be answering any "Why didn't get pp for X?" questions anymore for now.
Tom94 wrote:
1. Of course. This is not exactly how the algorithm works but should yield a sufficient approximation. That being said, correctly judging X is the problem here.CookChefSteak wrote:
1. If a certain map requires X amount of skills to get a decent score at and that X correlates to a certain pp range, then should pp gain not be expected when you are below that pp range and acquire such a score?
2. As far as I've noticed, accuracy is weighed too heavily on any map below 1.5 minutes(or >1 minute with DT). Try looking at maps like Eggman's Theme on DT. I lost around 6 pp(out of overall 8) because I improved a score but had 2% less. Note the score I improved had 3-4 mistakes and the improvement was an FC, so it really makes no sense to me. That map shouldn't give that much pp anyways imho, it's too easy to fc on DT.
3. Wouldn't checking whether or not the newly calculated pp would be less or more than the old one be enough? I mean, the servers already store everybody's pp so you have all the data you need available for comparison. But then again, I don't know how the scoring system is programmed so I don't want to assume things.
2. "2%" accuracy is usually a huge margin. Most people see "accuracy goes from 0% to 100%, therefore 2% is not a big difference" which is a completely wrong assumption. First of all, it greatly depends on where you've been previously. 96% and 98% are a 2% difference, but you have twice as many 100s in a 96% score than in a 98% score. That's a 100% relative difference! In your case you went down from around 95% to 92%. While not doubling your 100 count it still increased by a lot. Judging by how short the map is, you shouldn't expect to get too much of a bump for full-comboing it. Imho the decrease of pp is justified on that map.
3. No. The system needs to sort all your current scores to determine your user-pp, so it needs to be able to access your highest pp on a per-map basis for what you suggest to work. That'd force us to store 2 high-scores per map per player. Another problem is, that the pp algorithm will be tweaked frequently, so plays that previously were not deemed good enough and discarded might end up deserving the top spot in the future.
That works only for the first new score coming in. Imagine a new (higher) pp value gets chosen and updated while the score which caused the pp increase doesn't get saved, since there is a higher score lying around already.CookChefSteak wrote:
But since every player's current pp is stored as an integer on the server, why is it not possible or plausible to store newly calculated pp as a temporary variable before calling on the server's pp-update method, and compare it with the stored[old] pp value? It looks like a simple if statement in my head. It just seems like something like that should be very possible in a well-modulated algorithm. I'll say it again though, I don't know how you programmed it so it might not be that simple. Maybe if you could shed some light on the technical aspects of the algorithm I'll understand better.