xBeater wrote:

Liiraye wrote:

If they do good but make a miss or two I really don't see how that makes them bad or unable to fc insanes. I have insanes with like 98-99% acc and a miss which gave pp, would you say I'm worse than those who got 96% fc?

If you're getting pp from A-B ranks then those maps are by definition hard. Care to link the maps you're talking about at least?

I'm not talking about one or two misses, seriously though. And I don't care about how 'good' a player is. My problem is just that according to these principles this system should be based on, these players definitely shouldn't rank that high in the overall pp ranking. In my opinion this can't be fair.
And maps I'm referring to are for example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/209576?m=0 and https://osu.ppy.sh/b/221898?m=0 (cba to look for more).
I guess I just have to deal with this system for now.

Well right now the pp system is under heavy recalculations. I for example (I'm rank 3k~) got pp for getting rank 4k and even rank 12k(!) on a map (miss in the middle with dt)

The combo system should be revamped as well imo. Since ppv2 apparently favors accuracy and speed above all, I don't see the point in using combo as the factor to determine the global rank in a specific map. If someone fc's with hidden and get like rank 400 while I miss in the middle, get rank 6k and only I get pp, the rankings doesn't matter, now do they?

Is this a step to turning mods into individual rankings, Tom? I heard peppy talk about that before.

xBeater wrote:

Liiraye wrote:

If they do good but make a miss or two I really don't see how that makes them bad or unable to fc insanes. I have insanes with like 98-99% acc and a miss which gave pp, would you say I'm worse than those who got 96% fc?

If you're getting pp from A-B ranks then those maps are by definition hard. Care to link the maps you're talking about at least?

I'm not talking about one or two misses, seriously though. And I don't care about how 'good' a player is. My problem is just that according to these principles this system should be based on, these players definitely shouldn't rank that high in the overall pp ranking. In my opinion this can't be fair.
And maps I'm referring to are for example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/209576?m=0 and https://osu.ppy.sh/b/221898?m=0 (cba to look for more).
I guess I just have to deal with this system for now.

So you consider an S on a hard diff better than an A on an insane diff?
The system calculates difficulties within the beatmap, like big jumps, fast motions, streams and difficult patterns! << These are very common in insane difficulties, in hard or normals difficulties the maps are much much easier, hard diffs almost never have big jumps or streams so I don't see why they should give a lot of ranks?

tldr; would you be more impressed by a DT hard score, or an A insane score on a fairly difficult insane

Could This Be wrote:

tldr; would you be more impressed by a DT hard score, or an A insane score on a fairly difficult insane

I would be more impressed by a DT hard score.
But whatever, I don't see a point in farther discussions about this. Guess I just have to take it as it is.

Defacer wrote:

Just a quick question.

Is the system currently real-time?I can only guess it's manually updated for the time being.

Actually since it's my first post in this thread, I am just gonna say that the system so far is doing really well and it's close to the best system osu! can have, thanks for all the work that's been done.I personally think HD scores in general are worth less than they should.Waiting for pattern difficulty calculation too.

The system is real-time in the sense of: When you get a score it directly gives pp.
There has been a little down-time in the system today (which led to Dalvoid's complaint) which has been resolved. In general, if a new score makes a map disappear from your best performance list or doesn't appear there, despite you thinking it should, then give it a day to appear before complaining, please - just to make sure.

Liiraye wrote:

The combo system should be revamped as well imo. Since ppv2 apparently favors accuracy and speed above all, I don't see the point in using combo as the factor to determine the global rank in a specific map. If someone fc's with hidden and get like rank 400 while I miss in the middle, get rank 6k and only I get pp, the rankings doesn't matter, now do they?

Combo is still heavily weighted. Under the circumstances you described you would get far less pp than "someone".

xBeater you are just mad because you can't brag about your rank to your friend anymore, deal with it.

Wishy wrote:

xBeater you are just mad because you can't brag about your rank to your friend anymore, deal with it.

LOL, so true, I used to be rank 7k++ and have drop to 10k++.Well, cant brag anymore, but for some reason my tp is still high, 7.3k+ so well, time to brag about my tp then, while climbing back the pp ladder

By the way, tom, ummm...Is the ppv2 system now final? Or is there still tweaks and stuff?

Wishy wrote:

xBeater you are just mad because you can't brag about your rank to your friend anymore, deal with it.

Wow, I didn't expect such a retarded reply.
And I never was someone who bragged about ranks. It's just that kind of inequity I feel. But that might only be my very own opinion.
As well, you seem to miss the point of my original post so keep out of this if you don't have any meaningful comments.

xBeater wrote:

Wishy wrote:

xBeater you are just mad because you can't brag about your rank to your friend anymore, deal with it.

Wow, I didn't expect such a retarded reply.
And I never was someone who bragged about ranks. It's just that kind of inequity I feel. But that might only be my very own opinion.
As well, you seem to miss the point of my original post so keep out of this if you don't have any meaningful comments.

I know it's not quite the same, but as long as you don't provide any examples of scores that are rated wrongly in your opinion, there is not much meaning to your complaint either. I don't understand what the "obvious" reasons are to not mention them, as you stated earlier.

Anyway, since this system is far from final and will likely always keep changing slightly I hope it'll get more satisfying for you in the future.

Tom94 wrote:

I know it's not quite the same, but as long as you don't provide any examples of scores that are rated wrongly in your opinion, there is not much meaning to your complaint either. I don't understand what the "obvious" reasons are to not mention them, as you stated earlier.

Whatever, doesn't really matter anymore since you guys more or less proved that I was wrong.

Tom94 wrote:

Anyway, since this system is far from final and will likely always keep changing slightly I hope it'll get more satisfying for you in the future.

And thanks for your efforts. :3

The fact that you don't want to provide specific examples is because you are afraid that some of your "friends" might check out this thread and see how you are whining about something that makes you look inferior compared to them on the ranking system. I don't know if you brag or anything but your problem here is that you feel your e-penis got smaller.

Wishy wrote:

Nyzashi...

The argument you formed which made you say pp doesn't make sense to you was that your pp was decreasing after getting some FC on some random map, Tom told you it didn't and that what was dropping was your rank. After that you still say it doesn't make any sense without any argument.

Have you thought about the fact that you check your rank AFTER PLAYING A MAP AND GETTING A SCORE THAT COULD AFFECT YOUR RANK which means you will ONLY NOTICE CHANGES ON YOUR RANK AFTER PLAYING A MAP SINCE THAT'S WHEN YOU CHECK IT? Also, the system itself probably takes time to update stuff so it might happen that changes are shown suddenly after some specific period of time.

Oh gawd get that capslock away. It just makes you look like an aggressive scum.
Well, ya it still doesn't make any sense to me. And dude, I checked my score and all of this stuff several times. Can you please just use your brain? ;_;
It's fact that my pp increases when I'm playing old maps with a good accuracy and FC. That's okay so far. But everytime I play a new beatmap and FC it my ranks drop down. My pp doesn't change in any way. And that's confusing me. But it has absolutely nothing to do with my pp. I don't think that I need some arguments for that kinda stuff.

I am aggressive and the post is meant to be aggressive.

If your rank drops it means someone raised his pp and got over you, what doesn't make sense about that? It doesn't really happen when it matters or when you check it, the facts remain the same. The only way your rank can drop is if someone raises their pp from something lower compared to yours to something higher.

Wishy wrote:

The fact that you don't want to provide specific examples is because you are afraid that some of your "friends" might check out this thread and see how you are whining about something that makes you look inferior compared to them on the ranking system. I don't know if you brag or anything but your problem here is that you feel your e-penis got smaller.

No, it's just that I don't want to insult my friends but still I want to point that kinda inequity out that I'm feeling.
But discussions with guys like you are always meaningless, I don't really have to get myself down to that level.

Please stop spamming this topic and let the people who actually have questions have their questions answered. I guess my question was just completely spammed out, so I guess I'll write a short version of it here (since half of it was answered already from buny's post), no need to flip back.

How does the HD mod affect pp - I know it's the easiest mod, so it's reasonable that it'd add very little (or none) pp for a score. My question is, just how small is this amount? Is it worth dropping a regular SS/99+% to a silver 98~%, or would that just decrease PP? I understand accuracy plays a huge role in the new system (I like it that way ), so would the 1% out-weigh the HD mod, since accuracy affects PP exponentially close to SS?

Some maps are more difficult with HD, but imo getting 96% with HD on almost any map is a walk in the park compared to a 99+%/SS no-mod (yes I know there are exceptions, hence the almost), and the SS is easily out-scored by a mile. I know pp is not score-based, I'm just trying to say if the HD turns out to give more score and less PP it's almost impossible to go back unless you match the no-mod's accuracy with HD, which usually turns out to be a pain.

My apologies if this has been answered already, you can point me to a page/quote if it has been.

xBeater wrote:

No, it's just that I don't want to insult my friends but still I want to point that kinda inequity out that I'm feeling.
But discussions with guys like you are always meaningless, I don't really have to get myself down to that level.

If you had worded your example differently, it would be easy to mention your friends' names and no harm would be done.

Also if your "friends" do check out this thread, they'll no doubt guess that it's them you are talking about. It's not much of a secret and mentioning names isn't really going to put them in a negative light either, since you are avoiding the situation so strongly, it makes you look like the one out to do harm. All previous examples in this thread have not been "insulted," if anything they were justified. Please, provide real examples when making claims.

Fight elsewhere.

@Wishy just for you: FIGHT ELSEWHERE. consider this as a warning. And you know me. Take it serious.

Keep this topic clean or I make you incapable to say anything for a while.

Yes Milord.

The reason your rank always drops right after you get a good score is that your ranking is always updated after gaining pp. Now you might say that you aren't gaining any, but you have to remember that you can gain even 0.01 pp, and that, while not really showing in your total pp count, will update your score and your ranking as a consequence. So instead of making posts rambling about how you think something is unfair and giving off that kind of image of yourself, stop to think for a while, search available information on this topic, and, if you can't find anything ask in a fashion that doesn't make you look like you're whining. Wishy might have been a bit harsh, but I don't blame him after seeing so many people just whine about something that they don't like.

nooblet wrote:

How does the HD mod affect pp - I know it's the easiest mod, so it's reasonable that it'd add very little (or none) pp for a score. My question is, just how small is this amount? Is it worth dropping a regular SS/99+% to a silver 98~%, or would that just decrease PP? I understand accuracy plays a huge role in the new system (I like it that way ), so would the 1% out-weigh the HD mod, since accuracy affects PP exponentially close to SS?

Some maps are more difficult with HD, but imo getting 96% with HD on almost any map is a walk in the park compared to a 99+%/SS no-mod (yes I know there are exceptions, hence the almost), and the SS is easily out-scored by a mile. I know pp is not score-based, I'm just trying to say if the HD turns out to give more score and less PP it's almost impossible to go back unless you match the no-mod's accuracy with HD, which usually turns out to be a pain.

I don't know exactly how it's been done here, but I assume it's the same treatment as on tp (aim/speed/acc score attributes).

HD affects your aim score, not your accuracy score, and will give you more bonus on maps with higher aim requirements. This can outweigh accuracy loss on maps which are easy to get accuracy, or alternatively very hard to aim on (aim > acc), getting away with a few % less. However, maps with a higher accuracy requirement than aim, will be negatively affected by losing any accuracy, even with HD's aim bonus (which will be very small in comparison to accuracy). In this case, 1% is enough to knock a Silver S below a nomod S.

RaneFire wrote:

I don't know exactly how it's been done here, but I assume it's the same treatment as on tp (aim/speed/acc score attributes).

HD affects your aim score, not your accuracy score, and will give you more bonus on maps with higher aim requirements. This can outweigh accuracy loss on maps which are easy to get accuracy, or alternatively very hard to aim on (aim > acc), getting away with a few % less. However, maps with a higher accuracy requirement than aim, will be negatively affected by losing any accuracy, even with HD's aim bonus (which will be very small in comparison to accuracy). In this case, 1% is enough to knock a Silver S below a nomod S.

Thanks, that seems to be the case. I just tested it out, 94% S'd Remote Control (95 aim according to tp) compared to my previous 96% and got 9 PP

Are there any plans to include tp's difficulty calculator into the pp system? (Miiight be the wrong thread to ask this in, if so sorry)

RaneFire wrote:

nooblet wrote:

How does the HD mod affect pp - I know it's the easiest mod, so it's reasonable that it'd add very little (or none) pp for a score. My question is, just how small is this amount? Is it worth dropping a regular SS/99+% to a silver 98~%, or would that just decrease PP? I understand accuracy plays a huge role in the new system (I like it that way ), so would the 1% out-weigh the HD mod, since accuracy affects PP exponentially close to SS?

Some maps are more difficult with HD, but imo getting 96% with HD on almost any map is a walk in the park compared to a 99+%/SS no-mod (yes I know there are exceptions, hence the almost), and the SS is easily out-scored by a mile. I know pp is not score-based, I'm just trying to say if the HD turns out to give more score and less PP it's almost impossible to go back unless you match the no-mod's accuracy with HD, which usually turns out to be a pain.

I don't know exactly how it's been done here, but I assume it's the same treatment as on tp (aim/speed/acc score attributes).

HD affects your aim score, not your accuracy score, and will give you more bonus on maps with higher aim requirements. This can outweigh accuracy loss on maps which are easy to get accuracy, or alternatively very hard to aim on (aim > acc), getting away with a few % less. However, maps with a higher accuracy requirement than aim, will be negatively affected by losing any accuracy, even with HD's aim bonus (which will be very small in comparison to accuracy). In this case, 1% is enough to knock a Silver S below a nomod S.

Actually HD does affect accuracy a tiny bit on tp but it's only really noticeable if you get the same accuracy with and without HD.

Almost wrote:

Actually HD does affect accuracy a tiny bit on tp but it's only really noticeable if you get the same accuracy with and without HD.

I've read the tp info and it says that "non-map-changing mods, Hidden and FlashLight, add a flat percentage bonus to the aim difficulty." I also went to find a map with an HD SS and a no-mod SS and the accuracy scores are the same. http://osutp.net/scores?bid=223397

Mathsma wrote:

Almost wrote:

Actually HD does affect accuracy a tiny bit on tp but it's only really noticeable if you get the same accuracy with and without HD.

I've read the tp info and it says that "non-map-changing mods, Hidden and FlashLight, add a flat percentage bonus to the aim difficulty." I also went to find a map with an HD SS and a no-mod SS and the accuracy scores are the same. http://osutp.net/scores?bid=223397

Depends on the map probably because I found a few maps where the accuracy was increased because of HD such as http://osutp.net/scores?bid=66105

silmarilen wrote:

Dalvoid wrote:

As a player with not that high a ranking I just want to say: it feels downright depressing to beat a score in your top 10 (I've done this 4 times today) and then not only not gain pp for it, but also have it drop from your top 10. it seems like this is happening because of accuracy being worse, but the fact that we cant choose which score is considered combined with the fact that higherscore=/= most pp anymore is INCREDIBLY frustrating. I feel like there's no point trying to fc things i haven't before or using mods because even if I manage a better score (the point of a rhythm game?) I might not necessarily see any gain from it. It feels like I'm being punished for trying to beat my score not rewarded.
EDIT: I just checked one of the situations where a rank dropped from my top 10. I played https://osu.ppy.sh/b/281672 and had an A rank 300ish combo FC being 584. This popped into my top 10 today for some reason (the score was old so i assumed from reshuffling of how the maps are measured). Anyway, i then proceeded to FC the map with a HIGHER accuracy, and now it is GONE from my top 10. No mods were used in either playthrough. Please someone explain this makes no sense to me.

it's still there man, what the hell are you smoking?

yeah seems i was being impatient with the updates, BUT, it DID dissapear for about 2 hours before suddenly reappearing which i find very strange. i shoulda screenshotted i spose, but i dont see how that can be due to a delayed update. Obviously the system updated, because it was removed from my top 10, then updated again later and put it back

EDIT Tom94 already covered this, caused by server downtime or something last night.

It's an odd case, but Winshley's SSH on paraparaMAX I seems a little underrated (at least on osu!tp), given the length and all. I suppose it's also hard to programmatically identify the occasional map where HD is harder than HR.

RaneFire wrote:

nooblet wrote:

How does the HD mod affect pp - I know it's the easiest mod, so it's reasonable that it'd add very little (or none) pp for a score. My question is, just how small is this amount? Is it worth dropping a regular SS/99+% to a silver 98~%, or would that just decrease PP? I understand accuracy plays a huge role in the new system (I like it that way ), so would the 1% out-weigh the HD mod, since accuracy affects PP exponentially close to SS?

Some maps are more difficult with HD, but imo getting 96% with HD on almost any map is a walk in the park compared to a 99+%/SS no-mod (yes I know there are exceptions, hence the almost), and the SS is easily out-scored by a mile. I know pp is not score-based, I'm just trying to say if the HD turns out to give more score and less PP it's almost impossible to go back unless you match the no-mod's accuracy with HD, which usually turns out to be a pain.

I don't know exactly how it's been done here, but I assume it's the same treatment as on tp (aim/speed/acc score attributes).

HD affects your aim score, not your accuracy score, and will give you more bonus on maps with higher aim requirements. This can outweigh accuracy loss on maps which are easy to get accuracy, or alternatively very hard to aim on (aim > acc), getting away with a few % less. However, maps with a higher accuracy requirement than aim, will be negatively affected by losing any accuracy, even with HD's aim bonus (which will be very small in comparison to accuracy). In this case, 1% is enough to knock a Silver S below a nomod S.

not sure where the changes are, but seems like ppv2 calculates HD slightly higher than tp does: http://puu.sh/6Ezcq.png

this game suddenly got a lot more fun when i turned off mouse acceleration. (no more frustrating overshoots)

The new pp system makes me feel so accomplished for no reason. LOL good jobs

Well, this isn't really feedback and i have no obligations on the new PP update, i'm just wondering because I had PP:5 (yeah I suck) but now i have 118.
How does that work?

kamiyo-sama wrote:

not sure where the changes are, but seems like ppv2 calculates HD slightly higher than tp does: http://puu.sh/6Ezcq.png

May not be due to tp's implementation, but rather the pp side of things. We'll have to wait for the wiki and see, but I'm guessing that there's still mod-weightings. Your HD,DT score is probably higher because there are less DT's in general on "Rainbow after snow" than there are on "Magic Girl". Although "Magic Girl" is a way more popular and contested map, I wonder how much of this is a factor.

On another note:

If you browse the "beatmap difficulty" page here, there are a lot of maps that should not be there, but for some reason they are considered difficult... It's weird; "Molella" map, "Wonderland", "Tori no Uta" feature on the 9th page sorted by difficulty with maps like "VALLIS-NERIA", "Jiyuu no Tsubasa", "Ningen Shikkaku", "Intersect Thunderbolt", which are obviously way harder than the former 3. (Haven't checked them all)

There's something weird going on, because this opens up farming by difficulty when there are maps that shouldn't be in that position. And they do give a considerable amount of pp, since I played them myself.

Almost wrote:

Mathsma wrote:

I've read the tp info and it says that "non-map-changing mods, Hidden and FlashLight, add a flat percentage bonus to the aim difficulty." I also went to find a map with an HD SS and a no-mod SS and the accuracy scores are the same. http://osutp.net/scores?bid=223397

Depends on the map probably because I found a few maps where the accuracy was increased because of HD such as http://osutp.net/scores?bid=66105

The bonus to accuracy that HD gives is only a few percent. Unless the map gives a lot of accuracy tp already, you won't see any difference and even if it gives a lot of acc tp the difference is going to be like 2tp. http://osutp.net/scores?bid=98496 compare Mercurius and Gokuri

accuracy players suffer a lot from the new system

yes I've suffered so much

being #3 instead of #2 is injustice

thelewa wrote:

yes I've suffered so much

being #3 instead of #2 is injustice

pls

thelewa wrote:

yes I've suffered so much

being #3 instead of #2 is injustice

petition pls

After seeing a few score examples on HD in the last posts I definitely feel like the accuracy bonus is way too small. On most maps the difference between a no HD and a HD score with the same Acc value is less than 0.5%.

thelewa wrote:

http://osutp.net/scores?bid=98496 compare Mercurius and Gokuri

It's even more astounding that Gokuris 99.38% HR score gives more Acc value than ShadowSouls 99.28% HDHR score. I don't know how much HD should boost accuracy, but as it is in osutp (don't know if it's the same in pp right now) seems disproportional.

Yes, please weigh hidden a lot more, because obviously you have to re-learn rhythm and accuracy when playing hidden. nomod od and hidden od are like 2 different worlds.

Playing with hidden is as if the od has been doubled.

not a lot more, but it should be weighed a bit more to at least be noticeable for less skilled players

Well, that system seems to work much better than previous one, but it's still far from perfect.
So i have a few complaints there:
1)Top score ranks on maps doesn't give anything at all, even 1's is worthless. You should definitely add pp boost for highscores,so we will see more competition for high ranks especially on hard maps.
For example:
Top 50 - 2% pp boost
Top 10 - 5% pp boost
Top 1 - 15% pp boost
2)Hidden should affect accuracy much more.
3)Short maps and fullscreen jumps - OP.
4)If anyone can farm pp without even getting in top50, how you will ever been able to track down cheaters?
5)Waiting for pattern difficulty recognition.

Somehow some good scores (on rather difficult maps) I did yesterday are simply not showing up in my history. I'm not sure whether or not they are simply not showing up but are still counted or if those scores did actually disappear.

RaneFire wrote:

If you browse the "beatmap difficulty" page here, there are a lot of maps that should not be there, but for some reason they are considered difficult... It's weird; "Molella" map, "Wonderland", "Tori no Uta" feature on the 9th page sorted by difficulty with maps like "VALLIS-NERIA", "Jiyuu no Tsubasa", "Ningen Shikkaku", "Intersect Thunderbolt", which are obviously way harder than the former 3. (Haven't checked them all)

There's something weird going on, because this opens up farming by difficulty when there are maps that shouldn't be in that position. And they do give a considerable amount of pp, since I played them myself.

The difficulty calculations are far from perfect, and they will continue to get tweaked in the future. Keep in mind, that a lot of this is very subjective, though, and you might find maps easier, that others find harder. Gotta agree with you on most of the examples, that you called, though.

electrolytes wrote:

It's an odd case, but Winshley's SSH on paraparaMAX I seems a little underrated (at least on osu!tp), given the length and all. I suppose it's also hard to programmatically identify the occasional map where HD is harder than HR.

I'm not exactly sure how fair it'd be to further increase the map-length bonuses cap. Will consider it for the future.

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

Are there any plans to include tp's difficulty calculator into the pp system? (Miiight be the wrong thread to ask this in, if so sorry)

It is included to a very high degree.

anticlone111 wrote:

Well, that system seems to work much better than previous one, but it's still far from perfect.
So i have a few complaints there:
1)Top score ranks on maps doesn't give anything at all, even 1's is worthless. You should definitely add pp boost for highscores,so we will see more competition for high ranks especially on hard maps.
For example:
Top 50 - 2% pp boost
Top 10 - 5% pp boost
Top 1 - 15% pp boost
2)Hidden should affect accuracy much more.
3)Short maps and fullscreen jumps - OP.
4)If anyone can farm pp without even getting in top50, how you will ever been able to track down cheaters?
5)Waiting for pattern difficulty recognition.

1) That would add way more complexity to the algorithm, making it a lot harder to consider every score (since then every score has to be periodically checked for which rank it is). In addition to that - as mentioned multiple times - contest on maps is different. For instance way more good players play [Insane] maps than [Hard] maps and thus what you suggest would boost [Hard] maps without any solid reason.
2) Also answering all the other people who gave feedback on this: I disagree, that hidden should affect accuracy more. Playing with the rhythm of the map is not very connected to reading the map. The small bonus is gives to accuracy is only there to make up for rare pattern misreads, that might occur while playing with it.
3) Many long maps are worth more than short maps of equivalent difficulty. See chipscape or fallen world. The reason why you see mostly top-pp scores on short maps, is because there exist more short maps. On top of that many players seem to prefer to rank on those, since it's also easier. :p
4) I think it should be common sense, that if the pp algorithm can look at sub-top50 scores, then other things can do, too.
5) Planned, but it might take a while to arrive. This has a lower priority than getting the other gamemodes implemented.

Why on earth would this take my rank down by 1, obviously it isn't about accuracy since the accuracy was about 5% above my average and it is a rather difficult map... Is there such a thing implemented now as raking pp down o.0

What probably happened is, you didn't gain pp for your play, so you stayed where you were before. However, in the time it took you to finish the map, a different player surpassed your pp, thus dropping you by a rank.
Finishing the map was not the cause for your rank drop, activity by other players was.

Tom94 wrote:

1) That would add way more complexity to the algorithm, making it a lot harder to consider every score (since then every score has to be periodically checked for which rank it is). In addition to that - as mentioned multiple times - contest on maps is different. For instance way more good players play [Insane] maps than [Hard] maps and thus what you suggest would boost [Hard] maps without any solid reason.

You still can add pp bonus only for 1'st places, that doesn't seems to add too much complexity.Why would it would boost hard maps, if hard maps already weighted lower and i am talking about percentage pp boost.
And doesn't many cheaters get caught only because of user reports?

anticlone111 wrote:

You still can add pp bonus only for 1'st places, that doesn't seems to add too much complexity.Why would it would boost hard maps, if hard maps already weighted lower and i am talking about percentage pp boost.
And doesn't many cheaters get caught only because of user reports?

Even a bonus for 1st places only would make it easier to get pp on hard maps compared to how it is right now - by a bigger ratio than it would benefit insanes. You can verify the maths if you want, I don't want to dip into specifics.
Regarding your second point - you don't have to worry about it. There won't be more specific answers to that.

anticlone111 wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

1) That would add way more complexity to the algorithm, making it a lot harder to consider every score (since then every score has to be periodically checked for which rank it is). In addition to that - as mentioned multiple times - contest on maps is different. For instance way more good players play [Insane] maps than [Hard] maps and thus what you suggest would boost [Hard] maps without any solid reason.

You still can add pp bonus only for 1'st places, that doesn't seems to add too much complexity.Why would it would boost hard maps, if hard maps already weighted lower and i am talking about percentage pp boost.
And doesn't many cheaters get caught only because of user reports?

Giving a pp bonus while taking rank into consideration is just illogical with the score system.
You might have a lower acc but still have a higher score, so you get a pp bonus for being worse. (both are fcs)

..Why would you do that.

rank on maps has nothing to do with contest anyway
it's not like if you get #1 on a certain map you're the #1 player in the world who can play that map better than everybody else, it just means rrtyui didn't play it yet

high rank on maps does not equal "you played this map better than many other players".
high rank on maps equals "players who are good enough to play this map way better than you find it boring and don't bother wasting time on it".

a good ranking system simply rates people high based on random plays they do without forcing people to have to play maps they don't like just to get a higher rank (which is also known as farming)

Aqo wrote:

rank on maps has nothing to do with contest anyway
it's not like if you get #1 on a certain map you're the #1 player in the world who can play that map better than everybody else, it just means rrtyui didn't play it yet

I laughed. That's a good point though. generally I think it's been pretty frustrating to gain a good score on a map that's highly contested and you gained nothing for it because it depended too much on rank. In reverse, I felt pretty bad when I played a map that was barely contested. I've had the feeling that my pp was undeserved. So rank shouldn't correlate with pp at all, I totally agree.

Overall:
I really like the new system. It's always been pretty irritating to see people above me in rank that have only played Easy and Normal maps while I bothered to learn playing Insanes (well ofc it was much more fun). My "Best Performances" are pretty accurate, too. Some of those were rather lucky FC's or high combos I definitely couldn't do every day. While there are some minor points to improve (like difficulty calculating on some maps, but that's what you're gonna take care of), I'm very satisfied.

And by the way, did you recently change that you don't have to get a top score to gain pp? I've recently had a try which resulted in 98% accu whereas my FC try had only about 94-95% and I gained pp and accu incrase even though it was neither an FC nor a top score.

pp doesn't take score into consideration because all ranks count towards pp now

Kert wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/269963?m=0 - random DT gives more points than
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/96095?m=0 with HR

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/49067?m=0 gives way too much points, cosnsidering it's a lot easier than any of the above

In general I feel that DT gives qute a lot more than it should and HR on really small circles isn't as rewarding

And also FL?
FL is not favoured at all?
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/18156 - this must be one of my top plays, yet it's nowhere close
(my assumption is results are ordered almost in the same way as in tp)

This

buny wrote:

pp doesn't take score into consideration because all ranks count towards pp now

Maybe I wasn't clear enough or maybe I didn't quite understand just now, dunno. I meant the local top score. Some days ago I've read about complaints that you need a local top score to gain pp even though you might do something that is more impressive but it doesn't give any pp since it's not your personal top score or you might even lose pp because of a higher score. For example you have:

10 million pts., 800 combo, 94%, afterwards you have a try with
8 million pts., 700 combo, 98%.
The second try gave no pp, even though you were actually better on the map.

Or you have:
8.5 million pts., 700 combo, 93%, DT, afterwards you'll have
12 million pts., 900 combo, 99%, nomod.
And you lose a bunch of pp.

Those kinds of things were complained about. And I recently experienced that things didn't happen like that.
So I wondered if that's been changed.

Omgforz wrote:

Yes, please weigh hidden a lot more, because obviously you have to re-learn rhythm and accuracy when playing hidden. nomod od and hidden od are like 2 different worlds.

Playing with hidden is as if the od has been doubled.

I agree but hidden is pretty easy if you train it. Not doubled but something like 0.8 maybe

Ziggo wrote:

It's even more astounding that Gokuris 99.38% HR score gives more Acc value than ShadowSouls 99.28% HDHR score. I don't know how much HD should boost accuracy, but as it is in osutp (don't know if it's the same in pp right now) seems disproportional.

About the acc value:

RaneFire wrote:

HD affects your aim score, not your accuracy score, and will give you more bonus on maps with higher aim requirements. This can outweigh accuracy loss on maps which are easy to get accuracy, or alternatively very hard to aim on (aim > acc), getting away with a few % less. However, maps with a higher accuracy requirement than aim, will be negatively affected by losing any accuracy, even with HD's aim bonus (which will be very small in comparison to accuracy). In this case, 1% is enough to knock a Silver S below a nomod S.

Illus wrote:

[...] And I recently experienced that things didn't happen like that.
So I wondered if that's been changed.

What you experienced was probably connected to another score you made previously. Your online top-score in a particular map is still the only score that counts towards your pp on that map.

make hidden weight like this -> if a score is less 1% of the other score with hidden with will give less pp like this :
no mod 98 > with hidden 97 < worst
or this hr 98 < hr with hd 97,50 < better

tell me what you think of this pls

Illus wrote:

buny wrote:

pp doesn't take score into consideration because all ranks count towards pp now

Maybe I wasn't clear enough or maybe I didn't quite understand just now, dunno. I meant the local top score. Some days ago I've read about complaints that you need a local top score to gain pp even though you might do something that is more impressive but it doesn't give any pp since it's not your personal top score or you might even lose pp because of a higher score. For example you have:

10 million pts., 800 combo, 94%, afterwards you have a try with
8 million pts., 700 combo, 98%.
The second try gave no pp, even though you were actually better on the map.

Or you have:
8.5 million pts., 700 combo, 93%, DT, afterwards you'll have
12 million pts., 900 combo, 99%, nomod.
And you lose a bunch of pp.

Those kinds of things were complained about. And I recently experienced that things didn't happen like that.
So I wondered if that's been changed.

sorry i missed a bit of your previous post

but yeah you're correct. it'll only change if peppy added a system that would calculate the amount of pp that a score would gain and sort by that or if we could pick the score that we want to submit online

i like the suggestion someone had where we have the ability to delete completely a score of ours if we chose.

Tom94 wrote:

2) Also answering all the other people who gave feedback on this: I disagree, that hidden should affect accuracy more. Playing with the rhythm of the map is not very connected to reading the map. The small bonus is gives to accuracy is only there to make up for rare pattern misreads, that might occur while playing with it.

I guess what you're saying might be true for high level players, I can't tell. For low level players this might be different, though. Let me give you an example on that.

When I manage to get 98% no mod on a certain map, I will probably get about 96% with HD. With 95% no mod, I will get about 91% with HD. With 90% no mod, I will get about 83% with HD. So the lower my initial accuracy is, the more HD will lower my accuracy. To counter this, HD should maybe give a relative bonus according to the achieved accuracy, instead of a static multiplication bonus. That way high level plays with high accuracy will not be influenced, but HD keeps being viable on lower levels. What do you guys think about that?

Just order the rankings according to the amount of pp obtained instead of score. It would solve the main issues i have with the current pp.

Performance shouldn't be upped with HD when you can't play it anyway, so let the HD players have a reasonable bonus for doing well, not badly. It's just a different way of reading, as opposed to approach circles.

Many players argue that HD is just as easy as nomod once you learn to play it (trap notes aside). So how do you rate skill? The bonus was given to aim, but I still don't know if that's the right place. It seems like a patch-solution.

There is also the problem that some people play a map nomod and move on, setting hundreds of nomod ranks. But you also get people who use HD all the time and do the same. This is almost as bad as Hards vs Insanes, where different people play HD, compared to those who play nomod, and is almost impossible to compare the two other than to say the non-HD players have less skill because they can't play a mod, but by how much? Surely once they learn to play HD, they will be just as good if not better, but they're not interested.

I'm one of these people who never really delved into HD because it's not the challenge I'm looking for. When I mess up, it's not like my rhythm was bad, or my aim was bad, it's because I didn't fucking see the circle there, or saw it a bit late, putting my timing off, and that just annoys me so I don't play it much. I know I can get better at it, but why bother. I'm fine with a few less ranks, but if I learned to play HD really well, what then? I gained no mechanical skills by doing so, I just learned to read it, like AR10 doesn't give any bonus compared to AR9/8, because it's subjective. You just need to learn to read it. It is hard to rate something by it's obfuscation, which is HD and FL (memorisation).

Ziggo wrote:

With 95% no mod, I will get about 91% with HD. With 90% no mod, I will get about 83% with HD. So the lower my initial accuracy is, the more HD will lower my accuracy.

This translates to: the less you can read the map, the more HD would expose the fact that you can't read it as you will no longer be able to catch stuff you couldn't read ahead by their approach circles. The system is supposed to rate you for how well you can play, and not compensate you for stuff you can't play.

Aqo wrote:

Ziggo wrote:

With 95% no mod, I will get about 91% with HD. With 90% no mod, I will get about 83% with HD. So the lower my initial accuracy is, the more HD will lower my accuracy.

This translates to: the less you can read the map, the more HD would expose the fact that you can't read it as you will no longer be able to catch stuff you couldn't read ahead by their approach circles. The system is supposed to rate you for how well you can play, and not compensate you for stuff you can't play.

Uhm, no? This happens even if I can read 100% of the map. It's just that hitting accurately without approach circles is way harder when you are barely able to play a certain OD.

If you are "barely able to play" it then you're not in a state you can say you can read the map 100%.

Aqo wrote:

If you are "barely able to play" it then you're not in a state you can say you can read the map 100%.

I was only talking about the OD right there. Anyway, if it's a reading problem, then this would just support my proposal even more. Like Tom said, the current Acc bonus for HD is to compensate reading errors. So on scores with more reading errors the Acc bonus should be higher as well.

RaneFire wrote:

[...]

This is why I don't understand why HR and HD have the same rate score.
And I can said the same for DT and FL.

Mods have to be balanced imo, because they aren't.

Ziggo, you're supposed to read accuracy by the music, not by looking at approach circles. If you play correctly HD has no impact on acc reading difficulty ;v only on the positions where you land, which is why aim makes sense.

Aqo wrote:

Ziggo, you're supposed to read accuracy by the music, not by looking at approach circles. If you play correctly HD has no impact on acc reading difficulty ;v only on the positions where you land, which is why aim makes sense.

100% agree. I have absolutely no problem with hd accuracy. Aim is more of a problem

Omgforz wrote:

Yes, please weigh hidden a lot more, because obviously you have to re-learn rhythm and accuracy when playing hidden. nomod od and hidden od are like 2 different worlds.

Playing with hidden is as if the od has been doubled.

are you for real

Just a little suggestion here

It would be cool and useful if you added some details on the Top Performance, like the mods




the algorithm seems working very well (btw, when will it be open?)

Sephibro wrote:

SPOILER

Just a little suggestion here

It would be cool and useful if you added some details on the Top Performance, like the mods




the algorithm seems working very well (btw, when will it be open?)

I can't give any answers regarding your first suggestion yet. The algorithm will be openly described in a wiki artivle, which I will write as soon as I have the time. I am currently very busy with personal things and the wiki article has the highest priority directly followed by pp for the other gamemodes of what I will be doing afterwards. ETA for the wiki article is in a bit over a week.

MiniTokki wrote:

RaneFire wrote:

[...]

This is why I don't understand why HR and HD have the same rate score.
And I can said the same for DT and FL.

Mods have to be balanced imo, because they aren't.

Those bonuses don't really mean anything in terms of rank any more. The only reason why they aren't changed is because it's too late to change them.

Ziggo wrote:

When I manage to get 98% no mod on a certain map, I will probably get about 96% with HD. With 95% no mod, I will get about 91% with HD. With 90% no mod, I will get about 83% with HD. So the lower my initial accuracy is, the more HD will lower my accuracy. To counter this, HD should maybe give a relative bonus according to the achieved accuracy, instead of a static multiplication bonus. That way high level plays with high accuracy will not be influenced, but HD keeps being viable on lower levels. What do you guys think about that?

Some players can get better accuracy on HD than they can without it so it would more likely unbalance the system.

Wait a second, so only your best score would get recorded for pp?

WubWoofWolf got about a 500 combo on Remote Control with HD and DT, but getting full combo on no mod would get him a higher score but less pp. So if he max combo'd with no mod FIRST (hypothetically) and then got about a 500 on HD and DT, would that not count for pp? Because on his profile even that low score counted for a ton.

Shenanigans wrote:

Wait a second, so only your best score would get recorded for pp?

WubWoofWolf got about a 500 combo on Remote Control with HD and DT, but getting full combo on no mod would get him a higher score but less pp. So if he max combo'd with no mod FIRST (hypothetically) and then got about a 500 on HD and DT, would that not count for pp? Because on his profile even that low score counted for a ton.

He would lose pp if he beats the score without DT. If he had a non-DT score the DT score wouldn't count.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/33695?m=0
Gives toooooo much pp. It has beaten all my best pp scores which is funny

Full Tablet wrote:

Shenanigans wrote:

Wait a second, so only your best score would get recorded for pp?

WubWoofWolf got about a 500 combo on Remote Control with HD and DT, but getting full combo on no mod would get him a higher score but less pp. So if he max combo'd with no mod FIRST (hypothetically) and then got about a 500 on HD and DT, would that not count for pp? Because on his profile even that low score counted for a ton.

He would lose pp if he beats the score without DT. If he had a non-DT score the DT score wouldn't count.

That seems like a slightly flawed system. I noticed the same thing before ppv2 with high accuracy and no mod vs low accuracy and DT

Soarezi wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Ziggo, you're supposed to read accuracy by the music, not by looking at approach circles. If you play correctly HD has no impact on acc reading difficulty ;v only on the positions where you land, which is why aim makes sense.

100% agree. I have absolutely no problem with hd accuracy. Aim is more of a problem

Why would it influence your aim but not your accuracy? If your timing is the same and the position of the circles is the same... I don't get it, guess I'm just weird or something.

HoboEater wrote:

That seems like a slightly flawed system. I noticed the same thing before ppv2 with high accuracy and no mod vs low accuracy and DT

This has been discussed multiple times in this thread already. It's a known issue which I wish could be resolve, but it's not as easy as it seems, dealing wiith the huge amount of scores that exist.
Only keeping your best pp scores is also not a good option, because pp is an ever-changing system, where changes might often make a previous score worth more suddenly.

The system feels like it weighs high accuracy too heavily over actual map difficulty.

Mickiemoemoe wrote:

The system feels like it weighs high accuracy too heavily over actual map difficulty.

It's the exact opposite for me, so I guess it depends on your personal strengths.

Mickiemoemoe wrote:

The system feels like it weighs high accuracy too heavily over actual map difficulty.

that was the issue of peppy's ppv2

that system was like get SS or take a cancer
1x100 was worth nothing, SS was lightyears more rewarding, that was just COMPLETELY RETARDED.. it also was one of the flaws ppv1 had (ppv1 didn't have so many flaws btw), but it was much much less silly than peppy's ppv2

it's clear that this system has been thought by a good player who knows what's the real "hard" in this game

Ziggo wrote:

Why would it influence your aim but not your accuracy? If your timing is the same and the position of the circles is the same... I don't get it, guess I'm just weird or something.

Hidden forces you to "remember" where circles are so you aren't all accurate in positioning your cursor with it. It's also a lot harder to play things that are difficult for you to read with hidden on and a large part of aim is being able to read. Accuracy on the other hand doesn't really get affected at all since OD is unaffected. The only more difficult to accuracy things are the ones with poor flow and sections that require a large amount of guess work (and it's only really harder on sight reading most of the time).

Sephibro wrote:

(ppv1 didn't have so many flaws btw)

ppv1 had so many flaws...

Kind of enjoying a nice consistent rise in ranks but what I'm not so sure about is how I can spend ages working on a really hard beatmap and when I finally complete it it doesn't count anything towards my pp at all. But if I go and find the easiest beatmap I have, wack on a few mods and get a good score really easily, that gives me loads of pp. Don't quite understand that at all :/

[ Zetka ] wrote:

Kind of enjoying a nice consistent rise in ranks but what I'm not so sure about is how I can spend ages working on a really hard beatmap and when I finally complete it it doesn't count anything towards my pp at all. But if I go and find the easiest beatmap I have, wack on a few mods and get a good score really easily, that gives me loads of pp. Don't quite understand that at all :/

Barely passing a hard beatmap might not reward you as much pp as getting a good score on an easier one.

Brian OA wrote:

Barely passing a hard beatmap might not reward you as much pp as getting a good score on an easier one.

Yes that is what I've found, what I mean is it when it takes a really tough performance to complete a hard beatmap you get 0 pp but when it takes 0 effort to get a good score on an easy beatmapyou get loads of pp, so the fact they're called performance points isn't making much sense to me

[ Zetka ] wrote:

Brian OA wrote:

Barely passing a hard beatmap might not reward you as much pp as getting a good score on an easier one.

Yes that is what I've found, what I mean is it when it takes a really tough performance to complete a hard beatmap you get 0 pp but when it takes 0 effort to get a good score on an easy beatmapyou get loads of pp, so the fact they're called performance points isn't making much sense to me

Yet when you get a good score on the hard beatmap you'll get much more than the easy one.

Look at it this way: the system rewards good performance, and your performance on both maps aren't the same. You did poorly on the hard beatmap, so there'd be no sense in rewarding you for it. However, you did well on the easy one, so there's a reward for you. You've effectively gotten every pp that score was worth. The thing is the same can't be said of the hard map.

When will Flashlight and the other mods change their points?

didn't recive a single point for that. ty tom and peppy -.-

Well, #962 doesn't look like a particularly good performance

Luna wrote:

Well, #962 doesn't look like a particularly good performance

but for 12k noob like me... and its pluto dude.

pp is designed to reward good performance on maps. While it might be harder, to just pass a very hard map compared to full-comboing an easy map, you still perform badly on that particular hard map when just barely passing.

If you want to gain more pp, then go for full combos and high accuracy on the maps where you can barely achieve those.

Edit: Seems like I overlooked Brian OA's previously reply. He formulated it pretty well:

Brian OA wrote:

Look at it this way: the system rewards good performance, and your performance on both maps aren't the same. You did poorly on the hard beatmap, so there'd be no sense in rewarding you for it. However, you did well on the easy one, so there's a reward for you. You've effectively gotten every pp that score was worth. The thing is the same can't be said of the hard map.

Current system seems like a relatively fun and fair one.
However, I don't quite understand how I got a big load of PP from https://osu.ppy.sh/b/136649?m=0 (Insane) by getting rank #2573, 96,02% acc and 379 combo (out of the possible 777). Does the system consider that map difficult enough to give a rank 19k a lot of PP even if the performance is really not that good? I'm very confused.

­

ks- wrote:

Current system seems like a relatively fun and fair one.
However, I don't quite understand how I got a big load of PP from https://osu.ppy.sh/b/136649?m=0 (Insane) by getting rank #2573, 96,02% acc and 379 combo (out of the possible 777). Does the system consider that map difficult enough to give a rank 19k a lot of PP even if the performance is really not that good? I'm very confused.

Yes.

Rank (insert #2573 here) is not considered. It gauges your performance on an individual basis using the map difficulty algorithm. If that was a good play, you'll get rewarded, whether the map is highly contested and putting you down 2500 ranks or not.

I still think that HD weighted too lightly...
It can be hard for HD in maps
i) have both 1/2 , 1/3 , 1/4 music spacing (the change half a beat and a third of a beat throws people off)
ii) maps that have poor flow
iii) maps with jumps
iv) old maps (before 2010) (they've got strange spacing and strange beats)
IN those cases, HD should be weighted a lot more because it's significantly harder to play those maps with HD
Even in normal cases, HD is weighted far too lightly. A bonus of about 3% is just too small for most maps.
I think that HD should be weighted to about 5-6%, as a bonus for people who play HD

Also, the EZ mod should be rewarded, not punished, because it's actually harder to play with EZ than without...
(IN maps with high AR, it is impossible to play EZ)

What's more is that FL mod should also be rewarded more as in most cases it's incredibly hard to play FL
(if you don't use multiscreens)

That's all for now, thanks for listening
p.s. A great thanks to Tom for the new ppv2!

It's significantly harder to play those maps with HD only if you can't play HD

HD doesn't change anything, it's the same map, with the same OD AR CS and HP drain, if you play by listening the music it won't change much, except for stacks that are harder to read

2GoldenWolf

Airman is only hard if you can't aim it, so why not weight it lightly?
HD removes quite a lot of visual information which makes it very hard on lower AR, so it should influence aiming quite a lot on old maps.
Oh wait, I forgot, if someone finds it easy due to training then it doesn't matter.

Except learning HD is QUITE easier than learning how to aim airman's jumps


HD doesn't make things much harder if at all, the actual bonus seems enough

dennischan wrote:

SPOILER

I still think that HD weighted too lightly...
It can be hard for HD in maps
i) have both 1/2 , 1/3 , 1/4 music spacing (the change half a beat and a third of a beat throws people off)
ii) maps that have poor flow
iii) maps with jumps
iv) old maps (before 2010) (they've got strange spacing and strange beats)
IN those cases, HD should be weighted a lot more because it's significantly harder to play those maps with HD
Even in normal cases, HD is weighted far too lightly. A bonus of about 3% is just too small for most maps.
I think that HD should be weighted to about 5-6%, as a bonus for people who play HD

Also, the EZ mod should be rewarded, not punished, because it's actually harder to play with EZ than without...
(IN maps with high AR, it is impossible to play EZ)

What's more is that FL mod should also be rewarded more as in most cases it's incredibly hard to play FL
(if you don't use multiscreens)

That's all for now, thanks for listening
p.s. A great thanks to Tom for the new ppv2!

HD was used to give cheap n' easy PP for pretty much no work on most maps. It is treated as such in ppv2, because this is a rating of skill, not freebies.
As for your "hard in HD maps"...
i) Pretty much all maps have 1/2 and 1/4, and an occasional 1/3 where you just have to LISTEN and REMEMBER where it is in the music. Probably can't do it the first time, but who seriously sight reads with HD all the time? Maybe for fun or on easy maps, but seriously, it's not that hard to remember a few parts.
ii) Poor flow as in... Can't keep up, too many jumps?
iii) Lol
iv) ppv2 is designed for newer maps and they even TELL you to play the newer maps, why complain about it when they already mentioned it?

The hard parts in HD, are maps with a ridiculous amount of stacks, back-and-forth jumping (Even something easy like Ha-tenya becomes ridiculously annoying) or hidden circles under/after/between sliders (Heaven's Race Guitar Style?)

FL is rewarded where fit. As Tom previously said, FL gives a whopping 36% bonus when it's hard to play. Most maps with FL records are ones that are easy, hence the low reward value.

StormR1d3r wrote:

Airman is only hard if you can't aim it, so why not weight it lightly?

What.

2nooblet

Make a map full of jumps on AR6 and a speed on which you can hit 200-300 notes nomod in a combo before it becomes too hard to maintain it, then try to see if you can get the same amount of hits with HD and give us results. You'll see that HD makes jumps harder.