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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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kurufu
72 posts
Joined February 2012
kurufu
A suggestion that probably wouldn't be able to be implemented any time soon (if at all, who knows how much space and processing power peppy has for scores), based on this quote.

The new system does not just multiply the value of map when adding mods, it calculates a whole new difficulty with the mods. For example, if you're playing a map with DoubleTime, then the algorithm will calculate a new difficulty value of the map, considering it to be 1.5x as fast.
Since these are calculated as a whole new difficulty, why not save each mod combination's score on its own for performance purposes? Everyone can still vie for top ranks with the current score multipliers but they will still get Speed fro their DT play, and Acc from their HR play, etc, etc. Then everyone is happy and if later you get to see what pp/Speed/Acc/Aim you got from a rank you can see what each mod combination gave you.

Other things people suggested that can possibly replace this is displaying the computed difficulty stats of a map in the client. That way people trying to find the best gains (or looking to improve their acc/aim/speed) can see what the best mods to use are (kind of an analog to those looking for points being able see the multipliers for their score with different mods turned on).

--edit to remove "farm"--

Overall I'm loving the new pp system, I gained 24k ranks woo~
Last edited by kurufu , edited 1 time in total.
peppy
19,374 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Please stop using the term "farm". It's shocking and wrong and has such a bad connotation.
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2

snosey wrote:

the new pp system heavily weighted on jumps that makes tablet user's easier to get pp D:
Just no @ the tablet part, but I've found that the new system definitely favours jumps. I've been looking at peoples profiles who are a similar rank of my own and trying to copy their scores (got 900 ranks on the day of release doing this hehe) and I've found that after looking at 15~ maps, pretty much all of them are maps with more jumps than your average insane.
Nines
392 posts
Joined May 2013
Nines
Maybe a pros and cons list from me :)

Pros:
-Now that pp calculates based on difficulty and EVERY score you get counts, you can play a song whenever, and if you beat your score, and/or you play a new song and pass, that score affects your rank.
-Ranking is a LOT more casual now and LESS STRESSFUL :D
-Ranks reflect your skill.
-A story a friend on Osu told me: This friend is good at this game. He plays a lot of INSANE maps. Sometime ago (or recently, idk) someone was looking down on him for being bad at osu. This person went from top 500 to 11k because he only played tons of Hard maps for his rank. My friend's Insane map ranks beat the other guy's ample Hard ranks. This proves the "skill" base for ranking.
-I feel like I am deserving of my rank and that it reflects my skill level.
-Better scores, but poor accuracy=lower skill. I AGREE with this, no matter how much it saddens me that my lucky passes no longer count as much.

Cons:
-The maps displayed under the Top Ranks bar in my profile, are probably based off of my score and accuracy compared to the difficulty of the map.
Now, I have a question.
Does the Top Ranks list maps that I may have gotten B's or C's on there because the map was really difficult? Or is it because I ranked in the top 1000 for that difficulty, and there weren't any maps that I had better scores on that were HARDER than the B or C I got?

Rewben2 wrote:

snosey wrote:

the new pp system heavily weighted on jumps that makes tablet user's easier to get pp D:
Just no @ the tablet part, but I've found that the new system definitely favours jumps. I've been looking at peoples profiles who are a similar rank of my own and trying to copy their scores (got 900 ranks on the day of release doing this hehe) and I've found that after looking at 15~ maps, pretty much all of them are maps with more jumps than your average insane.
To my understanding, the reason the Star system is flawed is solely because of things like jumps. Based on just observation, it looks like star difficulty will skyrocket if you refrain from following the guidelines of Distance Spacing when mapping (of course, that's not the ONLY factor).
Last edited by Nines , edited 2 times in total.
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2

Tsuchimikado wrote:

Does the Top Ranks list maps that I may have gotten B's or C's on there because the map was really difficult? Or is it because I ranked in the top 1000 for that difficulty, and there weren't any maps that I had better scores on that were HARDER than the B or C I got?
It calculates how well you did on the map and the difficulty of the map in a similar way that tp does, and if the system calculates that getting a B/C on a very hard map is worth more than some of your other scores, then the ones you got B/C's on will be in your top performance. So yes, you could say it was because you didn't have any other better scores. You don't need to rank sub-1000 in a song for it to be in your top rankings, majority of my maps in top rankings aren't. As far as I know, it has nothing to do with how well you stack up against other people, it's all calculated based on the difficulty of the map, mods and how well you did.


Also,

GoldenWolf wrote:

I think it'd be cool to have bigger values, so we could see the minor changes after playing a map
Even if we earn 1pp over 52'873, it's better than not seeing the 0.1pp over 5'287 imo
I've read that pp is whole, but I could be wrong. I would also prefer if it was like this.
Last edited by Rewben2 , edited 1 time in total.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

peppy wrote:

Please stop using the term "farm". It's shocking and wrong and has such a bad connotation.
as a Finnish farmer who grows potatoes I'm appalled by the misuse of this term

no potatoes for osu! players
Nines
392 posts
Joined May 2013
Nines

Rewben2 wrote:

You don't need to rank sub-1000 in a song for it to be in your top rankings, majority of my maps in top rankings aren't.
Hehe. Maybe I'm just bad.

Rewben2 wrote:

As far as I know, it has nothing to do with how well you stack up against other people, it's all calculated based on the difficulty of the map, mods and how well you did.
Figured as much as this. Last thing though, you know those arrows next to ranks now? They list the amount of time from present to when you got that score. I have only seen arrows that point up. Can they point down, indicating that it negatively affects your rank (also, does that mean the arrow pointing up means that it positively influences your rank)?
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
yes the arrow signifies Heaven and is a call for all of us players to thank the all-mighty God for having allowed us to loiter around and click circles
if the arrow is pointing downwards it means you've made Jehovah mad.
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2

Tsuchimikado wrote:

Rewben2 wrote:

You don't need to rank sub-1000 in a song for it to be in your top rankings, majority of my maps in top rankings aren't.
Hehe. Maybe I'm just bad.

Rewben2 wrote:

As far as I know, it has nothing to do with how well you stack up against other people, it's all calculated based on the difficulty of the map, mods and how well you did.
Figured as much as this. Last thing though, you know those arrows next to ranks now? They list the amount of time from present to when you got that score. I have only seen arrows that point up. Can they point down, indicating that it negatively affects your rank (also, does that mean the arrow pointing up means that it positively influences your rank)?
I'm pretty sure you can't lose ranks from doing badly and the arrow direction doesn't mean anything, I think it's just there. I might be completely wrong though.

thelewa pls
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

Salvage wrote:

I really think that having the speed, acc and aim thing here as well will help every player to know what they lack and how to improve, since tp and pp now are really like each other whenever i want to farm pp i'd go to tp and see what gives me points and the most important thing, WHY it gives me points (high speed, aim etc) and that way i'm recognizing the 'training' i'm doing to increase my ranking. (And with this i mean we should be able to see that here too, it's not a big deal but since maps are calculated in another way here, there is a difference from what we're seeing on osutp.net and what we would be seeing here)
Just to elaborate on this.

We currently have "difficulty information" presented on the beatmap page in terms of Circle Size, HP Drain, Accuracy, Star Difficulty, etc. These aspects are not relevant to a map's difficulty so much anymore, and I would like to see more technical stats like TP's aim/speed/acc there as well. (Ok so we HAD a new bar) The new bar was useful to a certain degree, but it doesn't contain any information. What I mean is: I don't know where my skill sits on that bar... that bar needs to be related back to our pp in some way, so that players can determine maps around their skill level or slightly higher.

Now that <Insert shocking word here> is done with, new players need to be given a direction in which to improve their rank, otherwise they will continue to play as normal and never understand why they aren't ranking up, leading to more forum posts. Yes we should play for fun, but results are also important and many people play for both. This is a new system. The way of ranking up is different too.

Unfortunately the star system makes it difficult to find any appropriate maps for these players to play slightly above their level, and many just dive into the deep-end of streaming and jumping, hoping to eventually improve, even after a year. People have been doing this for a long time already... it's bad and direction is needed. The popularity of my gdoc lists is an example of how hard it is to find appropriate maps for improving.
ARRACHEZ VOUS
99 posts
Joined July 2008
ARRACHEZ VOUS
I can't tell if the new ranking is working fine for everyone, my previous rank was 9k, now I'm 8k (my tp rank is 11k).
I don't deserve all of them tbh.

Something is pretty frustrating with this ranking... I mean, my #10 Best Performance are so bad.
One of them is old like 8 month ago.
8 month ago is exactly when I got my tablet (my mechanical 2 month later) and I started to play the game " seriously " .
I'm feeling like I have not improving my play that much. What I did during those 8 month ?

I have to work harder ! ヽ(*≧ω≦)ﾉ

(And the game don't want to upload any of my plays since 48h.)

/mylife
Last edited by ARRACHEZ VOUS , edited 3 times in total.
Kinji
11 posts
Joined June 2013
Kinji
How do you gain pp now?
nooblet
630 posts
Joined December 2011
nooblet

Kinji wrote:

How do you gain pp now?
Just like before, play more and get better
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2

Kinji wrote:

How do you gain pp now?
In a similar way you gain tp, you get good ranks.

If you want an actual method, look at profiles of people ranked similar to yourself and try and beat their scores, or get a similar score. This is all I've been doing and I gained 900 ranks yesterday and 600 today, and my "top performance" is pretty much filled with maps from this time. I'm not even trying hard, I've beaten some scores in 3 or less tries and gained 150 ranks for the map. Easy.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94
Just wanted to let you all know, that future changes to the system are now documented in the changelog.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
rly gud
969363565
34 posts
Joined May 2010
969363565
I just don't like the ranking system.
Of course, it is impossible to create a system that makes everyone satisfied.
It's reasonable to lower the weight of flashlight, and I accept that.
My rank dropped from #999 to #6030. I'm not surprised because I actually don't have the ability of #999.

However, being a flashlight player, I can't stand that in my best performance, there are no flashlight scores but a lot of strange none records even without fullcombo. I can't stand this kind of treatment.
It is a popular system to measure players' skill, like TP, but it frustrates me.

Playing with flashlight is not only memorizing the map like a robot.
Also, no matter if the system will be changed, I'll keep playing with flashlight because I love it.
I just want to complain.
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2

969363565 wrote:

I just don't like the ranking system.
Of course, it is impossible to create a system that makes everyone satisfied.
It's reasonable to lower the weight of flashlight, and I accept that.
My rank dropped from #999 to #6030. I'm not surprised because I actually don't have the ability of #999.

However, being a flashlight player, I can't stand that in my best performance, there are no flashlight scores but a lot of strange none records even without fullcombo. I can't stand this kind of treatment.
It is a popular system to measure players' skill, like TP, but it frustrates me.

Playing with flashlight is not only memorizing the map like a robot.
Also, no matter if the system will be changed, I'll keep playing with flashlight because I love it.
I just want to complain.

Tom94 wrote:

FL gives a huge bonus on maps which are hard to aim. I am tallking about a 36% increase. However if the movement of the map you played is not that complicated, then even FL won't be able to pull it up by much. I've already been considering to increase FL's bonus even further in the past, since it makes aiming so much harder.
FreshMint
29 posts
Joined June 2013
FreshMint
<3 it
hinamizawan
868 posts
Joined May 2010
hinamizawan
I like it more than the original pp but still there are some confusing delay of scores... I was #1112 this morning, went to get a #2 in an Insane diff no mod then I drop to 1118... shortly after I get a no mod #4 at a Hard diff and suddenly went to 1090.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

makkura wrote:

I like it more than the original pp but still there are some confusing delay of scores... I was #1112 this morning, went to get a #2 in an Insane diff no mod then I drop to 1118... shortly after I get a no mod #4 at a Hard diff and suddenly went to 1090.
There are still initial bug-fixes and fine-tuning things happening. Please be patient for the next few days / weeks for it to stabilize a bit more.
Gigo
266 posts
Joined March 2013
Gigo
Nice ranking system Tom! I have 0 (zero (null)) complaints about it. In ppv1 I was rank 10k... when ppv2 was implemented I dropped to rank 17k, which was ok since I know I didn't deserve rank 10k. Then I played >>> https://osu.ppy.sh/s/57950 <<< on Lunatic, finished it with a decent combo (873) and although my accuracy was really bad (95%), I skyrocketed to rank 13k... just from playing one song! So, yeah, keep up the good work!
Horolynn
47 posts
Joined August 2010
Horolynn

969363565 wrote:

[...]
I just want to complain.
Most, if not all of your flashlight scores are apparently normal and easy maps, while the ones in top performance are insane and hard. System working as planned?
Fabi
1,130 posts
Joined September 2009
Fabi
WHY WOULD YOU DELETE MY AWESOME SCORE?????????



:(
vioLinAngel
23 posts
Joined February 2013
vioLinAngel
i like it
Symqn
8 posts
Joined June 2013
Symqn
Just got random +20pp and then random -10pp and -0,10 acc after finishing a hard map that i was playing for fun is there a penalty for playing easyer maps now?
dedaloodak
27 posts
Joined December 2012
dedaloodak
4k# >> 12k#
gg peppy and crew -.-
uzzi
786 posts
Joined September 2012
uzzi

Symqn wrote:

Just got random +20pp and then random -10pp and -0,10 acc after finishing a hard map that i was playing for fun is there a penalty for playing easyer maps now?
Not sure, but I gained some pp and lost some accuracy as well from playing.
TheBigA
6 posts
Joined March 2009
TheBigA
I would be interested in how sliderbreaks are treated (combo breaking ones and just -1 combo ones).
XGeneral2000
86 posts
Joined April 2011
XGeneral2000

Symqn wrote:

Just got random +20pp and then random -10pp and -0,10 acc after finishing a hard map that i was playing for fun is there a penalty for playing easyer maps now?
I think there's a lot of tweaking/adding/updating going on right now, my pp increased this morning despite me not having even opened the client for over 24 hours. My "Top Performances" changed as well. I'm guessing we should give it some time to finish processing and stabilize.

With regards to the highest-performance vs highest-score problem, would it be possible to run a pp-value check after every play (regardless of score) and compare it to the pp-value of the current high score? And if the new play is a higher value, to update the pp accordingly even if high score doesn't change?

I admittedly don't know much about what calculations are done client-side vs server-side, or whether pp is calculated from scratch after every play, or anything like that (I'd be very interested to know, actually, if you have time and if that's disclosable), so I can't suggest much in terms of efficiency. My guess is that there's a table of high scores for every player on the server, and that pp is recalculated each time this table is updated...in this case, the only way to implement this higher-pp vs higher-score idea would be to store a new table of highest-pp scores for every player, which would be very memory-expensive (as I think you mentioned somewhere earlier). The only way I can see to get around this would be to migrate the pp calculations to the client-side, but I don't know how feasible that would be.
Natteke
6,540 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke
I've tried to see if I can get any pp at all. Played a bunch of maps, mostly newly ranked with streams and jumps. Got decent acc and ranks, ended up with 0pp. Can someone explain what I'm doing wrong? Is it not real time? I'm confused.
Ippikiryu
28 posts
Joined July 2010
Ippikiryu
Are all the older maps calculated into the current scores? Or are they still updating? Or do you have to replay some to get them reincluded?
Pettanko
246 posts
Joined September 2012
Pettanko

Natteke wrote:

I've tried to see if I can get any pp at all. Played a bunch of maps, mostly newly ranked with streams and jumps. Got decent acc and ranks, ended up with 0pp. Can someone explain what I'm doing wrong? Is it not real time? I'm confused.
I think it takes time before your pp updates because when I got a top performance a few days ago it took some time before it showed in my performace history. I'm guessing it updates every few hours or so?
969363565
34 posts
Joined May 2010
969363565

Draxuss wrote:

Most, if not all of your flashlight scores are apparently normal and easy maps, while the ones in top performance are insane and hard. System working as planned?
I don't know how it works and what should working as planned be like. I'm sure that I have scores that are insane +FL and hard +DTFL, but they are still defeated by the none scores.

Rewben2 wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

FL gives a huge bonus on maps which are hard to aim. I am tallking about a 36% increase. However if the movement of the map you played is not that complicated, then even FL won't be able to pull it up by much. I've already been considering to increase FL's bonus even further in the past, since it makes aiming so much harder.
Thanks a lot. I hadn't read the early replies. :lol:
However, if flashlight can only get a huge bonus on maps which are hard to aim, should DT get a huge bonus only in maps which have high BPM? I don't think DT is much harder than FL, especially in some slow and long maps.


By the way, how about the maps which don't have that many streams and jumps but are hard to read? Is this kind of difficulty considered?
XGeneral2000
86 posts
Joined April 2011
XGeneral2000

969363565 wrote:

However, if flashlight can only get a huge bonus on maps which are hard to aim, should DT get a huge bonus only in maps which have high BPM? I don't think DT is much harder than FL, especially in some slow and long maps.
Theoretically, DT should already only give huge bonus in maps which are harder to begin with. It doesn't add a % multiplier - the difficulty is recalculated from scratch with DT in effect - the same as if you were playing a version mapped at 1.5x speed with no mods. So if a map is slow to begin with, the difficulty won't be that high even with DT.
Metro
693 posts
Joined April 2010
Metro
Shouldn't country rankings be ordered by average performance?
Full Tablet
2,544 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Metro wrote:

Shouldn't country rankings be ordered by average performance?

That would give too much ranking to some countries with only 1 player
NixXSkate
785 posts
Joined February 2011
NixXSkate

Tom94 wrote:

Kert wrote:

And also FL?
FL is not favoured at all?
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/18156 - this must be one of my top plays, yet it's nowhere close
(my assumption is results are ordered almost in the same way as in tp)
FL gives a huge bonus on maps which are hard to aim. I am tallking about a 36% increase. However if the movement of the map you played is not that complicated, then even FL won't be able to pull it up by much. I've already been considering to increase FL's bonus even further in the past, since it makes aiming so much harder.
I think the speed of the map (1/2 notes) with how jumpy it is should play a big part in the FL's bonus system.
http://osutp.net/scores?bid=154889
This is one of the most impressive FL scores yet due to the speed of the map along with its jumps (normally FL scores are on fairly slow maps), but we can see that the system didn't treat Dungeon kindly in comparison to the competition.

Sorry if it was mentioned before, the thread grew quite a bit and didn't want to look through all 17 pages. :o
Metro
693 posts
Joined April 2010
Metro

Full Tablet wrote:

Metro wrote:

Shouldn't country rankings be ordered by average performance?

That would give too much ranking to some countries with only 1 player
True. But the country rankings are much different than in osu!tp, that's why I'm asking.
wyedwardchan
2 posts
Joined February 2013
wyedwardchan

dedaloodak wrote:

4k# >> 12k#
gg peppy and crew -.-
I know that feel bro
Mine 5k#>>>>18k#

Just fun playing is now not an option, just keep retrying your insane maps dude :roll: :roll:
UNIFO
5 posts
Joined April 2011
UNIFO
I have some concerns regarding Performance Points and tying it to difficulty of the map.

Most notably.... songs that involve 5.00 difficulty.

There are some songs at 5.00 difficulty that are not as difficult as some of the insane 5.00 difficulty maps, yet I believe they are treated the same for calculations for PP purposes. (I'll provide examples if needed).

This can be "set up for some level of exploit of getting PP" at around the 1k to 2k PP range, in my opinion. Ie... they can effectively raise their PP by playing and doing really well at the easy 5.00 difficulty maps.


Maybe we need to start ranking maps with 6.00 difficulty to really differentiate the hard and really hard maps... because there is a huge saturation of maps at the 4.75 - 5.00 difficulty range?
Wishy
2,972 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Lol@people crying because they went from 4k to 600k. If you play for fun then you shouldn't care about your rank.

UNIFO, there is another difficulty calculation system, just ignore the stars, nobody cares about them, pp uses another system to evaluate maps, stars are there just because.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

Wishy wrote:

Lol@people crying because they went from 4k to 600k. If you play for fun then you shouldn't care about your rank.

UNIFO, there is another difficulty calculation system, just ignore the stars, nobody cares about them, pp uses another system to evaluate maps, stars are there just because.
i still have scores that took 1 pc in my best performance though
Wishy
2,972 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Most of the scores I got on my best performance came from score that took me one play, your point? Some examples would be helpful.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
my point is that the weighings can still be improved
Wishy
2,972 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Certainly.
UNIFO
5 posts
Joined April 2011
UNIFO

Wishy wrote:

Lol@people crying because they went from 4k to 600k. If you play for fun then you shouldn't care about your rank.

UNIFO, there is another difficulty calculation system, just ignore the stars, nobody cares about them, pp uses another system to evaluate maps, stars are there just because.
Here is some definitive evidence/example that will leave anybody baffled on how the PP system would work.

Example 1:

Before improving the score of this map (https://osu.ppy.sh/b/183511), I had a score of like 700k on it, and it was considered one of my top performing songs.

Now compare that to the score of this map (https://osu.ppy.sh/b/312770) which still is at 1.5 Mil. I think this map is harder than the previous map, yet this was not one of my top performing song.

Note that both songs are at 5.00 difficulty. The 2nd one is the more difficult song. DESPITE this fact, my 700k score was a top performer (as of yesterday, now has improved). Now how does that make any sense what so ever?

Example 2:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/169090?m=0 -> my top score is 1.4 Mil, 79% accuracy, max combo 170, and difficulty of 4.94. This song is in my top performer.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/309501 -> my top score is 4.6 Mil, 87% accuracy, max combo 460, and difficulty of 5.00. This song NOT my top performer.

Again the 2nd one I feel is much more difficult. Yet somehow the first one is part of my top 10 performance, and the 2nd isn't.

----

I'm aware there are other factors that involve PP, such as how competitive the song could be. However, these two examples does show that something is kinda fishy occurring with 5.00 difficulty songs, and can be set up for exploit with specific songs.
Wishy
2,972 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
I'm too lazy to check out the maps, but just by looking at the scoreboard I can say what you usually consider to be easier is actually harder.

Didn't check any of the maps tho so I may be wrong. Star system has nothing to do anyways, trust me, just ignore it. You won't get a lot of pp from a random 5* map compared to hard 5* maps.
HoriKyoko
7 posts
Joined July 2012
HoriKyoko
This feels a little stupid but, is the top 10 best performance in order of amount of pp awarded?
Lach
1,118 posts
Joined November 2012
Lach

lucari386 wrote:

This feels a little stupid but, is the top 10 best performance in order of amount of pp awarded?
Yes. The higher ones are more valuable.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

dedaloodak wrote:

4k# >> 12k#
gg peppy and crew -.-
#2 -> #4 as you can see 4 is double the amount of 2 meaning that at a percentual level my rank dropped almost as much as yours did

GG NO RE THIS SYSTEM IS DOOMED




on a more serious note people who are complaining about their rank dropping should consider the possibility that there might be players better than them getting better scores than what they're getting

just saying that it is an almost certain possibility
Kinji
11 posts
Joined June 2013
Kinji
what i dun get is, how does player which has worse scores than me, performance is also not as good( not to brag), but have higher pp than me...
Rewben2
996 posts
Joined November 2012
Rewben2

Kinji wrote:

what i dun get is, how does player which has worse scores than me, performance is also not as good( not to brag), but have higher pp than me...
Example? The system calculates their scores are worth more.
darkmiz
407 posts
Joined August 2011
darkmiz

Kinji wrote:

what i dun get is, how does player which has worse scores than me, performance is also not as good( not to brag), but have higher pp than me...
check their best performance scores, and beat them because you think you're better. free pp
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Kinji wrote:

what i dun get is, how does player which has worse scores than me, performance is also not as good( not to brag), but have higher pp than me...
instead of asking about it you should provide names and examples of the scores

I also think that I should be #1 but because I'm not this system is bad
Kinji
11 posts
Joined June 2013
Kinji
click on my userpage, and this userpage. http://osu.ppy.sh/u/2621067, i have been 'stalking' his userpage to compare scores, and get btr, but my pp is always lower than him....
plaatinum
84 posts
Joined October 2013
plaatinum

Kinji wrote:

click on my userpage, and this userpage. http://osu.ppy.sh/u/2621067, i have been 'stalking' his userpage to compare scores, and get btr, but my pp is always lower than him....
You have to get a better score than him on these maps.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/226839?m=0
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/169450?m=0
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/252000?m=0
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/136400?m=0
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/169090?m=0
Kinji
11 posts
Joined June 2013
Kinji

Plaatinum wrote:

You have to get a better score than him on these maps.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/226839?m=0
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/169450?m=0
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/252000?m=0
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/136400?m=0
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/169090?m=0
so basically i get btr score in this few maps, my pp will increase to the same as him? and how do i know that I have a btr score in that song than him? Thank you very much for answering my question. :D
AmaiHachimitsu
1,639 posts
Joined May 2011
AmaiHachimitsu
Just don't think "better score" means "being higher in scoreboard" only in this case. You need to use the same mods (or add some) and get better accuracy.

i.e. Your score won't be "better" if you beat DT score with FL
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
also less misses
Lach
1,118 posts
Joined November 2012
Lach
This guy also has 5k more playcount than you, Kinji, and probably has numerous other scores that obviously didn't make it into the list, but are of similar value.
Kinji
11 posts
Joined June 2013
Kinji
I see....thank you all for your comments, hardcore osu now xD
Wishy
2,972 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
I've seen how the system actually appreciates good scores with a random dumb miss (a few of my top performances are like that), therefore I can assume the system doesn't punish not-FCing that much. Now, the question, what would happen if you manage to clear something impossible, let's say you clear Airman on DT with a B, how much would that be worth? I mean that certainly requires an insane amount of skill and is probably harder than getting some random few misses score on the same map without any mod.

I know Airman is not a very good example because of low drain, but the point is quite clear.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

Tom94 wrote:

Misses are penalized very strongly if you have more than just a few. Your combo relative to the maximum possible combo also plays a huge role. But you can indeed get a huge amount of pp for lower scores. A prime example would be jesus1412's C score on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/124501?m=0 . It is a 86% 500 combo with DoubleTime in case you are curious. That's an insane score on such a map, you are free to look at Auto-mode play it with DoubleTime.

SS does not have a huge bonus by itself, but due to the high accuracy required to get one (100% is quite high, eh? :p) it indirectly is worth a lot.

Accuracy is still very relevant, however not as much as in ppv1 anymore.
Wishy
2,972 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Thanks. So the more misses you get the harsher it gets (1 miss takes x pp, 2 misses takes 3x pp, 3 misses take 8x pp, etc) and the closer your maximum combo is to the maximum map's combo the better.

Damn I was hoping to fill my top performances with Cs.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
technically you can, but the amount of speed and aim that is needed to carry the overall pp anchored by the accuracy factor is probably either on par or higher than rrtyui

since pp uses only the end results, perhaps tom could make a program that can calculate pp gained from arbitrary input values
Symqn
8 posts
Joined June 2013
Symqn
19k>40k yea i guess kinda pp farm when i think about it after i raged about the drop this system is good only needs to fix bugs and real time update's.I have a suggestion it would be cool to be somewhere written how much pp and acc you gain or lose for a song,lets say under historical tab there would be
<song name> +9pp +0,03 acc or +2pp -0,01 acc.
Kytoxid
osu! Alumni
1,369 posts
Joined April 2009
Kytoxid
It would be neat if we had a way to submit a pending map to the difficulty calculator and get a difficulty value/set of values.

1) It'll allow the players to provide more accurate feedback in fine-tuning the weightings of components of the calculator, and
2) It provides a slightly more objective measure of difficulty to discuss creating an even spread of difficulties, or if a Normal is "too hard", prior to ranking.
HeShu
194 posts
Joined February 2013
HeShu
Since I got a 2200# in my top ranking, can we say that the "top 900 to be ranked" is over and we just need to perform the best we can ? That would be a huge relief for the new insaners :D
BerserQ
28 posts
Joined June 2012
BerserQ
I wasted so much time on this game and I play so much time.. From 6k rank I'm already 18k rank. Guys I hope that ppv2 will change algorithm
Horolynn
47 posts
Joined August 2010
Horolynn

BerserQ wrote:

I wasted so much time on this game and I play so much time.. From 6k rank I'm already 18k rank. Guys I hope that ppv2 will change algorithm
You wasted time farming hards and got what you deserved. Sounds pretty good.
kurufu
72 posts
Joined February 2012
kurufu

buny wrote:

technically you can, but the amount of speed and aim that is needed to carry the overall pp anchored by the accuracy factor is probably either on par or higher than rrtyui

since pp uses only the end results, perhaps tom could make a program that can calculate pp gained from arbitrary input values
it is still very possible to still get pp from C ranks. In my user profile you can see a map that i got a C on is one of my top scores (and I'm rank 9k) because its just that difficult.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
well, I was speaking relatively to wishy's scores
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
:lol: some food for thought

unlike accuracy plays where you retry a map until you get good accuracy on that map, for speed plays you usually train externally. whether it's on streamy maps like ascension to heaven that you like to play or those stream practice maps that many people uploaded, and whether it's spending a month playing with HR or simply playing a lot of jumpy maps -

in the end, when you get that "1 random play that went into my top performance. wtf. I didn't work hard for it", you did work for it and for quite some time. it's not a play you were capable of doing from your first day of playing osu, and it's not a play that the people you suddenly pass with this rank can do even if they retry it 20 times.

getting rewarded for single tries on a map doesn't mean the map is too easy and doesn't deserve its points and something-p being broken, it just means you are good enough to collect the points this map gives. If you still think a map is imbalanced in the system, call all your friends to try it too.

don't forget that each player has different strengths. a player practicing only streams all day might FC a deathstream maps and then go and say "wtf, this isn't hard took me like 2-3 tries, meanwhile pudding is crazy hard for me and doesn't give much more".
and then another player who spends most of his time on playing jumpy maps literally all day long might eventually get some high combo on a difficult jump map and go "huh, I'm getting points from this random shitty play, but this stream map is completely impossible for me even after many tries and doesn't seem to give as much points wtf?", but in the end you're just getting rewarded for what you're good at.

try to put things into perspective before writing suggestions for this system, maybe ask several other people to play the same maps as you and see how they do on them. you might be surprised at how difficult some things are to other people that look super easy to you, and how stuff you feel is impossible other people can accomplish quickly and relatively effortlessly.
Liiraye
1,354 posts
Joined December 2011
Liiraye

Aqo wrote:

:lol: some food for thought

unlike accuracy plays where you retry a map until you get good accuracy on that map, for speed plays you usually train externally. whether it's on streamy maps like ascension to heaven that you like to play or those stream practice maps that many people uploaded, and whether it's spending a month playing with HR or simply playing a lot of jumpy maps -

in the end, when you get that "1 random play that went into my top performance. wtf. I didn't work hard for it", you did work for it and for quite some time. it's not a play you were capable of doing from your first day of playing osu, and it's not a play that the people you suddenly pass with this rank can do even if they retry it 20 times.

getting rewarded for single tries on a map doesn't mean the map is too easy and doesn't deserve its points and something-p being broken, it just means you are good enough to collect the points this map gives. If you still think a map is imbalanced in the system, call all your friends to try it too.

don't forget that each player has different strengths. a player practicing only streams all day might FC a deathstream maps and then go and say "wtf, this isn't hard took me like 2-3 tries, meanwhile pudding is crazy hard for me and doesn't give much more".
and then another player who spends most of his time on playing jumpy maps literally all day long might eventually get some high combo on a difficult jump map and go "huh, I'm getting points from this random shitty play, but this stream map is completely impossible for me even after many tries and doesn't seem to give as much points wtf?", but in the end you're just getting rewarded for what you're good at.

try to put things into perspective before writing suggestions for this system, maybe ask several other people to play the same maps as you and see how they do on them. you might be surprised at how difficult some things are to other people that look super easy to you, and how stuff you feel is impossible other people can accomplish quickly and relatively effortlessly.
Zero pp

On the other hand, I gave him 3~ TV Sizes and two average lenghty maps for hr (both of which gave the least pp) and he went from rank 700 to 600 in about an hour.

On these issues I feel conflicted. Sometimes it feels like I've found a plausable theory as to how the system works and then this tags along, destroying my theory about bpm, speed, lenght and difficulty.
Wishy
2,972 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
I guess high BPM 1/2 maps still are not being properly judged by the system. This happened on osu!tp too.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

Wishy wrote:

I guess high BPM 1/2 maps still are not being properly judged by the system. This happened on osu!tp too.
ah yeah, that's why
[Tums]
2 posts
Joined July 2013
[Tums]
I wish that there was not only a list of your best performences, but also one for your worst. That way you aren't taken down in rank by plays that are months old that you forgot about, instead of just taking a shot at a play that looks bad, that may not be considered bad at all. (also got a new best performance ang gained 0pp. I'll just assume its a bug)
Almost
2,154 posts
Joined May 2012
Almost

[Tums] wrote:

I wish that there was not only a list of your best performences, but also one for your worst. That way you aren't taken down in rank by plays that are months old that you forgot about, instead of just taking a shot at a play that looks bad, that may not be considered bad at all. (also got a new best performance ang gained 0pp. I'll just assume its a bug)
You don't lose pp for a bad play unless you just did a worse play that had higher score.
Syaro
219 posts
Joined May 2010
Syaro

Kytoxid wrote:

It would be neat if we had a way to submit a pending map to the difficulty calculator and get a difficulty value/set of values.

1) It'll allow the players to provide more accurate feedback in fine-tuning the weightings of components of the calculator, and
2) It provides a slightly more objective measure of difficulty to discuss creating an even spread of difficulties, or if a Normal is "too hard", prior to ranking.
t/164057

you can

the algorithm may have changed since this was 3 months ago, but if you get this set up and press ctrl shift A in map edit, it gives you a set of values which you can convert to tp for both aim and speed

OT: new pp is amazing, only tweak i would suggest is making FL's aim bonus scale with map length instead of being a flat bonus (i don't even like FL players but this only seems fair)
Kinji
11 posts
Joined June 2013
Kinji
well, the most unexpected thing in this new ppv2 system is that its algorithm is totally different than osu!tp....look at my profile to see the difference between my tp and pp TT^TT
Mayoi Hachikuji
179 posts
Joined November 2012
Mayoi Hachikuji
Mine shows a completely different picture.. All my Top TP scores = Top PP exacly!

Even my ranks on both systems are close to each other.
Horolynn
47 posts
Joined August 2010
Horolynn

Kinji wrote:

well, the most unexpected thing in this new ppv2 system is that its algorithm is totally different than osu!tp....look at my profile to see the difference between my tp and pp TT^TT
It was never supposed to be tp, peppy bringing Tom into this is something we had no idea about. Where did you get the idea that ppv2 was going to be identical, or even similar to tp?
Kinji
11 posts
Joined June 2013
Kinji

Draxuss wrote:

It was never supposed to be tp, peppy bringing Tom into this is something we had no idea about. Where did you get the idea that ppv2 was going to be identical, or even similar to tp?
Well, because when peppy says that ppv2 is going to measure the player skills, and unable to farm easily, I thought it should be something like the tp system, since it measures the speed, aim and accuracy of the player....which is closest to measuring a player skills....
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Akari- wrote:

Kytoxid wrote:

[...] only tweak i would suggest is making FL's aim bonus scale with map length instead of being a flat bonus (i don't even like FL players but this only seems fair)
pp already scales with map length and thus a flat multiplier on your aim points indirectly has map length scaling inside it, too.
[UsaMi] Reisen
13 posts
Joined January 2012
[UsaMi] Reisen
I got None S on Tsukasa - Accelerator [Maximum]. It was my 5th Best Perfomance List.

and I got Hidden S on that beatmap today. but It deleted my Best Perfomance List.

What's going on?
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

[UsaMi] Reisen wrote:

I got None S on Tsukasa - Accelerator [Maximum]. It was my 5th Best Perfomance List.

and I got Hidden S on that beatmap today. but It deleted my Best Perfomance List.

What's going on?
Your accuracy went worse.
Pastella
27 posts
Joined December 2013
Pastella
Well, at the first look the ppv2 made a really good impression for me.. But at the second look.. Kaykay, it's basically based on skill and stuff. Perfect so far. But... Everytime I reach a highscore on any map, including mods and stuff, my pp just DROPS down. My accuracy never is worse than 98,5%.

Playing new insane maps w/ DT and HD (rank #6) - my pp drops.
Playing new hard maps WITHOUT any mods - nothing happens.

Are you serious?.. I don't have any pleasure to play Osu! anymore, just because I feel tricked with this new system..
Even some friends of me who actually are much worse than me overtake my rank.

Conclusion: Are you serious dude? ;_;
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Nyzashi wrote:

Well, at the first look the ppv2 made a really good impression for me.. But at the second look.. Kaykay, it's basically based on skill and stuff. Perfect so far. But... Everytime I reach a highscore on any map, including mods and stuff, my pp just DROPS down. My accuracy never is worse than 98,5%.

Playing new insane maps w/ DT and HD (rank #6) - my pp drops.
Playing new hard maps WITHOUT any mods - nothing happens.

Are you serious?.. I don't have any pleasure to play Osu! anymore, just because I feel tricked with this new system..
Even some friends of me who actually are much worse than me overtake my rank.

Conclusion: Are you serious dude? ;_;
Your pp literally can not drop unless you're beating old scores of yourself with scores that pp considers worse. Which rank you get on a specific map is irrelevant - the system only looks at the quality of your score and the map.
Pastella
27 posts
Joined December 2013
Pastella

Tom94 wrote:

Your pp literally can not drop unless you're beating old scores of yourself with scores that pp considers worse. Which rank you get on a specific map is irrelevant - the system only looks at the quality of your score and the map.
Mkay.. Anyways. It doesn't make sense at all. It happens to me at EVERY map. I was also beating some old scores. My pp just drops down more and more. And i've just no loss anymore. I won't even try to top old scores, or download new beatmaps. Because i don't want my pp to be too scrappy e.e
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Nyzashi wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Your pp literally can not drop unless you're beating old scores of yourself with scores that pp considers worse. Which rank you get on a specific map is irrelevant - the system only looks at the quality of your score and the map.
Mkay.. Anyways. It doesn't make sense at all. It happens to me at EVERY map. I was also beating some old scores. My pp just drops down more and more. And i've just no loss anymore. I won't even try to top old scores, or download new beatmaps. Because i don't want my pp to be too scrappy e.e
Your best performance scores consist of Insane full-combo scores. Don't expect to top them off with the [Hard] scores you've been doing recently. What you are most likely seeing dropping is your rank, not your pp. That one is not dropping because you are playing other maps, but because other people simply rise higher while you stay where you are.

Try playing and full-comboing harder maps if you want to gain more pp. ;)
Pastella
27 posts
Joined December 2013
Pastella

Tom94 wrote:

Your best performance scores consist of Insane full-combo scores. Don't expect to top them off with the [Hard] scores you've been doing recently. What you are most likely seeing dropping is your rank, not your pp. That one is not dropping because you are playing other maps, but because other people simply rise higher while you stay where you are.

Try playing and full-comboing harder maps if you want to gain more pp. ;)
Okay I feel really dumb now.. But it STILL doesn't make very much sense to me ._. The scores change as soon as I play an Insane map with a full combo. (Including mods). I also reach a high rank score very often. It seems correct to me that my rank is changing basing on the other players activity. But it always happens AFTER I hit a new highscore on any insane map. When I'm playing hard maps, just to gain another S / SS, not to gain more pp, nothing happens.

It's still weird in my eyes and I just don't understand that.. :?

Kk. Thank you anyways ._. :D
Dalvoid
7 posts
Joined March 2013
Dalvoid
As a player with not that high a ranking I just want to say: it feels downright depressing to beat a score in your top 10 (I've done this 4 times today) and then not only not gain pp for it, but also have it drop from your top 10. it seems like this is happening because of accuracy being worse, but the fact that we cant choose which score is considered combined with the fact that higherscore=/= most pp anymore is INCREDIBLY frustrating. I feel like there's no point trying to fc things i haven't before or using mods because even if I manage a better score (the point of a rhythm game?) I might not necessarily see any gain from it. It feels like I'm being punished for trying to beat my score not rewarded.
EDIT: I just checked one of the situations where a rank dropped from my top 10. I played https://osu.ppy.sh/b/281672 and had an A rank 300ish combo FC being 584. This popped into my top 10 today for some reason (the score was old so i assumed from reshuffling of how the maps are measured). Anyway, i then proceeded to FC the map with a HIGHER accuracy, and now it is GONE from my top 10. No mods were used in either playthrough. Please someone explain this makes no sense to me.
IceYoshi
58 posts
Joined August 2011
IceYoshi
It seems like accuracy is much more valuated than before. I had a DT score with 1x100, then "improved" it by using HD in addition to DT and got 6x100 FC. By overwriting this score I even lost some pp. Afterwards I improved the score again, making this time 1x100 (with DT+HD) and got over 15 pp for that.

I also noticed the same behaviour for a HD SS score which got replaced by a 97.44% HD+HR. As it is right now, it seems that it is only worth playing with HD+HR if you actually can archive 98%+ accuracy with it.
Wishy
2,972 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Nyzashi...

The argument you formed which made you say pp doesn't make sense to you was that your pp was decreasing after getting some FC on some random map, Tom told you it didn't and that what was dropping was your rank. After that you still say it doesn't make any sense without any argument.

Have you thought about the fact that you check your rank AFTER PLAYING A MAP AND GETTING A SCORE THAT COULD AFFECT YOUR RANK which means you will ONLY NOTICE CHANGES ON YOUR RANK AFTER PLAYING A MAP SINCE THAT'S WHEN YOU CHECK IT? Also, the system itself probably takes time to update stuff so it might happen that changes are shown suddenly after some specific period of time.
xBeater_old
15 posts
Joined March 2012
xBeater_old
To be honest, I really dislike that new ranking system. And I'm not saying this, because it dropped me by 10k ranks.
It just ranks those with little skill way too high. Some friends of mine occasionally rank somewhere in the thousands of an insane map. (Usually not even with a full combo.) What sucks is, that these guys rank way too high by just performing shitty on maps which are just too hard for them.
This system doesn't evaluate the performance according to the skill as promised, else these guys wouldn't rank in the mid 2k's now.
It's not fun to see unskilled people cruising around in the front while being thrown behind by some pointless logic. The way it is now, the game is really not fun to play anymore. I just hope we can get some fairer ranking system.
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna

xBeater wrote:

To be honest, I really dislike that new ranking system. And I'm not saying this, because it dropped me by 10k ranks.
It just ranks those with little skill way too high. Some friends of mine occasionally rank somewhere in the thousands of an insane map. (Usually not even with a full combo.) What sucks is, that these guys rank way too high by just performing shitty on maps which are just too hard for them.
This system doesn't evaluate the performance according to the skill as promised, else these guys wouldn't rank in the mid 2k's now.
It's not fun to see unskilled people cruising around in the front while being thrown behind by some pointless logic. The way it is now, the game is really not fun to play anymore. I just hope we can get some fairer ranking system.
Could you give specific examples? I highly doubt that players who "can't even FC Insanes" are ranked "in the 2000s".
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Dalvoid wrote:

As a player with not that high a ranking I just want to say: it feels downright depressing to beat a score in your top 10 (I've done this 4 times today) and then not only not gain pp for it, but also have it drop from your top 10. it seems like this is happening because of accuracy being worse, but the fact that we cant choose which score is considered combined with the fact that higherscore=/= most pp anymore is INCREDIBLY frustrating. I feel like there's no point trying to fc things i haven't before or using mods because even if I manage a better score (the point of a rhythm game?) I might not necessarily see any gain from it. It feels like I'm being punished for trying to beat my score not rewarded.
EDIT: I just checked one of the situations where a rank dropped from my top 10. I played https://osu.ppy.sh/b/281672 and had an A rank 300ish combo FC being 584. This popped into my top 10 today for some reason (the score was old so i assumed from reshuffling of how the maps are measured). Anyway, i then proceeded to FC the map with a HIGHER accuracy, and now it is GONE from my top 10. No mods were used in either playthrough. Please someone explain this makes no sense to me.


it's still there man, what the hell are you smoking?
xBeater_old
15 posts
Joined March 2012
xBeater_old

Luna wrote:

Could you give specific examples? I highly doubt that players who "can't even FC Insanes" are ranked "in the 2000s".
I'm not going to name these people here, for obvious reasons.
But what I mean is practically: they finish the map with an A or B and are like #~1-2k in the overall map ranking, but get an insane amount of points.
I won't deny that they did some really good scores but never enough to rank that high. Most of the time it's just like the case I described above.
Liiraye
1,354 posts
Joined December 2011
Liiraye

xBeater wrote:

Luna wrote:

Could you give specific examples? I highly doubt that players who "can't even FC Insanes" are ranked "in the 2000s".
I'm not going to name these people here, for obvious reasons.
But what I mean is practically: they finish the map with an A or B and are like #~1-2k in the overall map ranking, but get an insane amount of points.
I won't deny that they did some really good scores but never enough to rank that high. Most of the time it's just like the case I described above.
If they do good but make a miss or two I really don't see how that makes them bad or unable to fc insanes. I have insanes with like 98-99% acc and a miss which gave pp, would you say I'm worse than those who got 96% fc?

If you're getting pp from A-B ranks then those maps are by definition hard. Care to link the maps you're talking about at least?
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