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[added] Make CS/HP/AR/OD toggle-able in Mods

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +4,126
Topic Starter
Maiz94

Blaze it


I got this idea when I play this beatmap, http://osu.ppy.sh/s/35375.

So, what I mean is, make CS/HP/AR/OD selected in numbers in mod selection, eg. :

Since the beatmap that I played is Insane diff which is ;
CS : 2/3/4/5/6/7
HP : 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10
AR : 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10
OD : 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10

So, I would like to pass it by following my suit style in ;
Since AR makes me always failed on trying to pass the beatmap.
CS : 2/3/4/5/6/7
HP : 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10
AR : 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10
OD : 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10

It's just like when clicking the Special Mod in osu!mania game mode which is 4K, 5K, 6K, 7K, 8K. So, it's the same way as the Special Mod in standard mode if it's implemented.

Of course, the other players can choose other numbers besides than mine to follow their suit style to pass on a certain beatmaps.

Also, about the Score Multiplier, if more numbers are picked in CS/HP/AR/OD respectively than the original CS/HP/AR/OD, Score Multiplier > 1.00x and if less numbers are picked in CS/HP/AR/OD respectively than the original CS/HP/AR/OD, Score Multiplier < 1.00x.
Luvdic
I believe that I have read somewhere that they had plans on making the easy mod that way.

That was very long ago though, not sure if they still intent to do so.
Oinari-sama

Xanandra wrote:

I believe that I have read somewhere that they had plans on making the easy mod that way.

That was very long ago though, not sure if they still intent to do so.
t/56606
winber1
o!m can't be compared to this as 4K, 5K, 6K, 7K, 8K all change the gameplay (using different fingers and different patterns etc.), while changing osu standard settings doesn't change gameplay, but rather just making it harder or easier. All patterns and shapes and stuff are the exact same. Furthermore, sometimes increasing AR will help he player read the map better, thus you cannot firmly say that if you increase the numbers, you should get a difficulty increase multiplier. This will make the score multiplier very hard to be used accurately for all maps.

Having a toggle like this where increasing the number increase the multiplier and decreasing the number decreases the multiplier also runs into the problem where if you put HP drain and AR really high and lower the OD a ton (and maybe CS as well), and then you put on hard rock, it completely screws around with the mod because HP drain and AR are already maxed, and the OD increase is insubstantial because OD is already so low and thus if done correctly, you can get the 1.06x multiplier while making Hardrock easier.

Secondly, the mapper has decided the map is to be played like that. Mods are a different story and they are a set difficulty increase or decrease multiplier, and are made for diffculty increase or decrease, while your toggle is basically just for your personal desires.

Third, use editor, it's not hard to change map settings. If you don't like the current settings because they make it hard, change the settings in editor to practice. It's not hard to do.

This has also been requested in a similar fashion iirc somewhere else and got denied.
-Sapphire_old
winber1 : That was harsh, but true. Have seen similar requests elsewhere which got denied as winber1 said.
Jawing
You are talking about my idea (which is very similar)... t/139647
Star it!
Kaeru
Extra points for higher numbers doesn't always make sense (some maps are way easier with higher AR). Also, everyone would have to go set new highscores with everything set to 10.

I don't mind being able to reduce these settings from the mods menu, though I firmly believe that these plays should be unranked.
DJKero
Making AR Custom by user should be REALLY USEFUL... CS HP and OD don't need to be touched to don't bullshit the difficulty of the game though...
Mithos
As long as it is unranked, I'll support this.
Bauxe

Mithost wrote:

As long as it is unranked, I'll support this.
I too would love this only if it was unranked. Would make practicing a whole lot easier.
Topic Starter
Maiz94
Bump! >w<
deadbeat
t/52873 just gonna leave this here
vantheman
I first came to the forums today to request something like the OP, then I found this thread and the linked-to threads within, and learned about all the issues involved, lots of discussion has taken place already.

But I still have a relevant question:

Is there any harm in giving incremental multiplier increase for a user selected increase in OD and CS?
AR increase can make a map easier, is a thing that was said. I don't think OD increase can make a map easier in any way, and CS increase might make a deliberately clustered map easier to read, but maps aren't supposed to be deliberately hard to read, so it won't make any correctly made map easier.

I ask because the case of myself specifically, I'd love to be playing everything set to CS7 and OD9 for ranked play without playing harder maps, I like to aim and I like to time accurately, but HR sets any map harder than normal to AR10, which is unplayable at my skill level. There aren't a lot of HR scores compared to the other mods - and my guess is because once someone can do AR10 they just go to higher level maps(which usually still don't have a high CS). And when I save as new diff just to have a thing that's undeniably the same but a little harder, I can't help but wonder why my scores are landing in the realm of "Doesn't count".

My question is if this "customization" is only allowed on CS and OD and they're only allowed to be increased and no option for anything to be decreased, would that be an acceptable feature?
jesse1412

vantheman wrote:

I first came to the forums today to request something like the OP, then I found this thread and the linked-to threads within, and learned about all the issues involved, lots of discussion has taken place already.

But I still have a relevant question:

Is there any harm in giving incremental multiplier increase for a user selected increase in OD and CS?
AR increase can make a map easier, is a thing that was said. I don't think OD increase can make a map easier in any way, and CS increase might make a deliberately clustered map easier to read, but maps aren't supposed to be deliberately hard to read, so it won't make any correctly made map easier.

I ask because the case of myself specifically, I'd love to be playing everything set to CS7 and OD9 for ranked play without playing harder maps, I like to aim and I like to time accurately, but HR sets any map harder than normal to AR10, which is unplayable at my skill level. There aren't a lot of HR scores compared to the other mods - and my guess is because once someone can do AR10 they just go to higher level maps(which usually still don't have a high CS). And when I save as new diff just to have a thing that's undeniably the same but a little harder, I can't help but wonder why my scores are landing in the realm of "Doesn't count".

My question is if this "customization" is only allowed on CS and OD and they're only allowed to be increased and no option for anything to be decreased, would that be an acceptable feature?
Big issue here is that a map with say od6 being upped to od8 changes pretty much nothing for a lot of good players and they would simply be getting free points. CS again suffers from the exact same issue, on some maps it simply won't make a difference at all.
vantheman
Sorry, but I don't believe "free points" to be true at all.
It's the same thing to a better player because the better player is better. So yes they should be able to earn a little more, because they can do something a little tougher. With ease or not doesn't matter. DT is worthlessly easy to me on an easy map, a completely negligible increase in challenge, but it's still given credit for being DT.
MMzz
I support this as an unranked mod. To use for practicing different AR/OD/HP etc.
Moway
This would be nice as unranked. It would be convenient for people who want to practice certain settings. Definitely don't want this as a score multiplier though.
Wishy
This is one of those things that should have been here for ages, you can already do it by editing the map yet people can't spectate you/you got to update the map later/can't use it on multiplayer/etc.
Poligen
I feel the need to bump this, guys. I hate having to change beatmaps with the editor. I wouldn't mind if this was unranked or ranked either.
Friggles
This would be amazing as an unranked mod.
Bites

vantheman wrote:

Sorry, but I don't believe "free points" to be true at all.
It's the same thing to a better player because the better player is better. So yes they should be able to earn a little more, because they can do something a little tougher. With ease or not doesn't matter. DT is worthlessly easy to me on an easy map, a completely negligible increase in challenge, but it's still given credit for being DT.
This is a good point that was made, please notice this!
jesse1412

Bites wrote:

vantheman wrote:

Sorry, but I don't believe "free points" to be true at all.
It's the same thing to a better player because the better player is better. So yes they should be able to earn a little more, because they can do something a little tougher. With ease or not doesn't matter. DT is worthlessly easy to me on an easy map, a completely negligible increase in challenge, but it's still given credit for being DT.
This is a good point that was made, please notice this!
Please don't, the player gives the same performance they always would have no mod and gets more points? Absurd. If they want more points use HR.
shiori_old2
Bump and 2 stars and here is my addition:

Akai Kyoko wrote:

For example, AR9 is a very important level for all CtB players. When I need to practise AR9, I have to search AR9 maps, but the easier maps, even AR8-insanes are not enough. So I should edit them, change to AR9, flip the notes and play them.
Also, AR10s are too hard to play ><

Otherwise, 'osu!' top players like change hard maps to AR10 but keep other property, such as CS and HP. Some map were uploaded to server but can never be ranked.

I wish there can be a custom unranked mod.
it can change the map difficulties, flip notes (horizentally or vertically) freely.
Also, in MP, it can be used like DT and HT to control global difficulty.
I believe it can make the game more fun.
sheela
I guess it could work. You can edit the CS/HP/AR/OD in the edit mode, but I'm too lazy to go to edit mode.
It'll be cool if it was an unranked mod.
vape
I don't see why this would be in any way harmful as long as it's in an unranked mode, unless Tom wants to weight it somehow in ppv2.

Honestly reworking DT and HR to allow for smaller increments doesn't seem like a bad idea (think stepmania). This would be a good first step, though.
jesse1412
My opinion is still supreme. Unranked or go home and we all know how much peppy loves unranked mods.
vantheman
Since you repeated yourself last time I figured I'd play for a while and think about it rather than repeat myself back at you. Seemed like decent etiquette. I realized I can't really speak about high level play since I can't do it, so I'll infer you're right about what you said before, so to restart my argument,

I think us casual players need something to make [hard] maps more interesting besides hard rock(as it exists right now), since AR10 is way beyond me even when I can do AR9. I'll play the whole way down my sort-by-difficulty on nofail, but the maps I can actually clear bore me so much that I've dropped the idea of playing for rank at all, let alone make anything like "meaningful progress" on the pp system. If "ranked small circle play" is the thing that interests me, I shouldn't have to push the difficulty off a 200 foot cliff via an unrelated setting to get it.
Maybe there's a better solution to the dilemma I describe then the one proposed in this thread. If you could point me there, it'd be helpful.

If you feel that people who aren't after the top margin of ranks don't matter at all in this community, or rather, shouldn't take any concern with the player ranking system, then I've got no further argument with you about this particular issue, since we disagree at the root of it.
_koinuri

vantheman wrote:

Since you repeated yourself last time I figured I'd play for a while and think about it rather than repeat myself back at you. Seemed like decent etiquette. I realized I can't really speak about high level play since I can't do it, so I'll infer you're right about what you said before, so to restart my argument,

I think us casual players need something to make [hard] maps more interesting besides hard rock(as it exists right now), since AR10 is way beyond me even when I can do AR9. I'll play the whole way down my sort-by-difficulty on nofail, but the maps I can actually clear bore me so much that I've dropped the idea of playing for rank at all, let alone make anything like "meaningful progress" on the pp system. If "ranked small circle play" is the thing that interests me, I shouldn't have to push the difficulty off a 200 foot cliff via an unrelated setting to get it.
Maybe there's a better solution to the dilemma I describe then the one proposed in this thread. If you could point me there, it'd be helpful.

If you feel that people who aren't after the top margin of ranks don't matter at all in this community, or rather, shouldn't take any concern with the player ranking system, then I've got no further argument with you about this particular issue, since we disagree at the root of it.
Problem with this mod is that you can pick which stats to increase. So people that can aim well but have terrible accuracy can just raise CS but not OD, the accuracy players who have very small error can just raise OD up until it becomes a problem, etc. It doesn't affect how they play at all but still gives them bonus.

And casual players don't even need any score boosts; competitive players do. I don't understand why the score boosts should be considered just for casual players and break the top 50 scoreboards where the scores actually matter.
vantheman
certainly the math the OP mentioned breaks things, but you just need to apply some non-linear scaling as things get further away from the map settings so that there's no making things stupidly easy for huge bonuses. I think the OPs math is too simplistic but also pretty irrelevant, it's the concept of adjust-ability that's important. Bumped this thread specifically because he seemed to word the concept best. For the numbers, just work things so that the current best multipliers are the best that the settings can reach anyway, and only through settings that match the current ones, and the top 50s won't break or come to represent anything false.

-[Koinuri] wrote:

And casual players don't even need any score boosts; competitive players do.
What? I don't understand why you said that. When I play a map with 40k scores on it, and a tiny difference throws me ahead several thousand ranks, the more variety there can be in the scores(such as through the incremental changes proposed) the better. Do you think scores below the top 50 don't matter? If so then the game shouldn't even give any rank at the end unless you get one of those. There's your 50 rungs on a ladder, but I play for the altitude on a mountain.
It's also about, aside from adding more texture to the landscape, mixing things up day-to-day without having the records ignore the play. Ranked play has benefit over unranked even if you aren't in it for the ranks, that being the statistical tracking for a stronger competition with self.
secretly asian
It would be nice to play some insanes and hards in ar 11 without dt required :p
_koinuri
I meant casual players don't need boosts as much as competitive players. Bad wording >.>
Someone going from 1000th place to 900th on a map means significantly less than someone going from 50th to 49th, so it's natural to favor competitive players over casual players for score boosts.

The non-linear scaling would still break scoreboards. You have to realize that people going for score aren't looking for ways to make map difficult, but just ways to increase their score. HP, for example, means almost nothing when fcing with high accuracy (unless the spinner is too long), so people going for high score would favor HP 10 with this mod over HR despite the fact that the difficulty didn't increase from no mod in terms of fcing with high accuracy. Eventually the scoreboard becomes how much difficulty they can raise without making maps difficult, and people playing no mod will be forced to use this mod to do absolutely nothing in order to get more points to be on scoreboards. It'll be treated like HD, they just put it on because they give more points even though it doesn't necessarily make the map difficult.
vantheman
ugh, HP drain as it relates to score
don't even get me started

why does nofail give less points when if you're using it you're probably getting less points anyway? why does it give less points when sudden death doesn't give more? why does the game have hp drain at all?

But anyway, the issue you stated, my opinion would be, no increase for increased HP drain, but decrease for decreasing it, seems to be consistent with the game's current scoring treatment of hp drain changes.

I acknowledge it'd be a really nuanced thing to make it fit in the game, but I think allowing players to tweak things to their preferences without losing benefits of ranked play, even if the only fair way to do it is give flat 1.0 for most changes making it harder and big multiplier decreases for changes making it easier, would be a really great addition.
Dumii

-[Koinuri] wrote:

I meant casual players don't need boosts as much as competitive players. Bad wording >.>
Someone going from 1000th place to 900th on a map means significantly less than someone going from 50th to 49th, so it's natural to favor competitive players over casual players for score boosts.

The non-linear scaling would still break scoreboards. You have to realize that people going for score aren't looking for ways to make map difficult, but just ways to increase their score. HP, for example, means almost nothing when fcing with high accuracy (unless the spinner is too long), so people going for high score would favor HP 10 with this mod over HR despite the fact that the difficulty didn't increase from no mod in terms of fcing with high accuracy. Eventually the scoreboard becomes how much difficulty they can raise without making maps difficult, and people playing no mod will be forced to use this mod to do absolutely nothing in order to get more points to be on scoreboards. It'll be treated like HD, they just put it on because they give more points even though it doesn't necessarily make the map difficult.
I believe CS, AR and OD should be the only factors affecting score. Ideally to me, this feature request should be viewed in the angle of splitting the HR and EZ mod up into smaller segments. As HP provides no hindrance to players who are going for high accuracy FCs, however can make the map much easier than intended to be, HP should instead be an unranked change. OD, AR and CS make the map more difficult; OD making it much harder to have a high accuracy, AR reducing the amount of time provided to react to the circles and CS making it harder to aim the circles.

Although I do not have specific values for the score multipliers, using HR, where the score multiplier is 1.06x for an increase of HP, CS, AR and OD, the OD increase would theoretically be worth 1.03x, CS worth 1.02x and AR worth 1.01x.

When using the "EZ" mod as an example, where the score multiplier is 0.5x, the multiplier ratio would be in the proportions stated above.

TL;DR: Should be worth OD > CS > AR. HP should be unranked.
_koinuri
Well now that we have some idea about how to balance the mod from competitive perspective, we can now look at things from casual player's point of view, since the point of this mod getting ranked score was more to benefit the casual players (for vantheman at least) than competitive players getting more mod to get free points.

First, the HP getting unranked will upset many casual players because no matter how difficult the map is, raising its HP and passing it will give no boost at all. Then the value of OD also becomes a problem. Accuracy only starts to matter when you can fc the map since the multiplier from combo gives way more points than getting high accuracy, so in casual player's point of view, assuming they're only passing and not comboing much, OD is more of a free point. Balancing this mod for both group of players require more work than it's worth imo.

Another thing to note is that AR is more of a preference thing and the difficulty can vary depending on the BPM of the map. Higher BPM means more notes per second, which makes higher AR easier to play since the amount of notes on screen decrease and you don't have to read as much notes. It's a preference because people have different idea about the ideal amount of notes on screen. So putting static multiplier on AR isn't a good idea, and I'm sure peppy would agree since he implemented adjustable scroll speed on osu!mania which is equivalent to AR on standard.

If the setting is adjustable with practically zero benefit/disadvantage, then we might as well remove the difficulty setting on editor and put it in this mod so people can do whatever they want with it, which doesn't really make much sense.

Someone made a program that create new difficulty with adjust difficulty of your entire library (though it'll be unranked obviously) so if you're just looking for quick way to make map a bit more difficult you can use this: t/201768
GhostFrog
Would love this as an unranked mod. Would be terrible as a ranked mod (and even worse now that we have decimal map settings, but it was terrible before that).
jesse1412
This can never work as a ranked mod.
buny

jesus1412 wrote:

This can never work as a ranked mod.
yep. too many variables to consider unlike mania where it simply changes the amount of buttons you can press

I'd love a mod like this rather than having to go to editor or pollute my song library with remakes of a map in different settings, and having spectators that can't even spectate because it becomes a different map.
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