As long as it is unranked, I'll support this.
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[added] Make CS/HP/AR/OD toggle-able in Mods
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I too would love this only if it was unranked. Would make practicing a whole lot easier.Mithost wrote:
As long as it is unranked, I'll support this.
Topic Starter
Bump! >w<
I first came to the forums today to request something like the OP, then I found this thread and the linked-to threads within, and learned about all the issues involved, lots of discussion has taken place already.
But I still have a relevant question:
Is there any harm in giving incremental multiplier increase for a user selected increase in OD and CS?
AR increase can make a map easier, is a thing that was said. I don't think OD increase can make a map easier in any way, and CS increase might make a deliberately clustered map easier to read, but maps aren't supposed to be deliberately hard to read, so it won't make any correctly made map easier.
I ask because the case of myself specifically, I'd love to be playing everything set to CS7 and OD9 for ranked play without playing harder maps, I like to aim and I like to time accurately, but HR sets any map harder than normal to AR10, which is unplayable at my skill level. There aren't a lot of HR scores compared to the other mods - and my guess is because once someone can do AR10 they just go to higher level maps(which usually still don't have a high CS). And when I save as new diff just to have a thing that's undeniably the same but a little harder, I can't help but wonder why my scores are landing in the realm of "Doesn't count".
My question is if this "customization" is only allowed on CS and OD and they're only allowed to be increased and no option for anything to be decreased, would that be an acceptable feature?
But I still have a relevant question:
Is there any harm in giving incremental multiplier increase for a user selected increase in OD and CS?
AR increase can make a map easier, is a thing that was said. I don't think OD increase can make a map easier in any way, and CS increase might make a deliberately clustered map easier to read, but maps aren't supposed to be deliberately hard to read, so it won't make any correctly made map easier.
I ask because the case of myself specifically, I'd love to be playing everything set to CS7 and OD9 for ranked play without playing harder maps, I like to aim and I like to time accurately, but HR sets any map harder than normal to AR10, which is unplayable at my skill level. There aren't a lot of HR scores compared to the other mods - and my guess is because once someone can do AR10 they just go to higher level maps(which usually still don't have a high CS). And when I save as new diff just to have a thing that's undeniably the same but a little harder, I can't help but wonder why my scores are landing in the realm of "Doesn't count".
My question is if this "customization" is only allowed on CS and OD and they're only allowed to be increased and no option for anything to be decreased, would that be an acceptable feature?
Big issue here is that a map with say od6 being upped to od8 changes pretty much nothing for a lot of good players and they would simply be getting free points. CS again suffers from the exact same issue, on some maps it simply won't make a difference at all.vantheman wrote:
I first came to the forums today to request something like the OP, then I found this thread and the linked-to threads within, and learned about all the issues involved, lots of discussion has taken place already.
But I still have a relevant question:
Is there any harm in giving incremental multiplier increase for a user selected increase in OD and CS?
AR increase can make a map easier, is a thing that was said. I don't think OD increase can make a map easier in any way, and CS increase might make a deliberately clustered map easier to read, but maps aren't supposed to be deliberately hard to read, so it won't make any correctly made map easier.
I ask because the case of myself specifically, I'd love to be playing everything set to CS7 and OD9 for ranked play without playing harder maps, I like to aim and I like to time accurately, but HR sets any map harder than normal to AR10, which is unplayable at my skill level. There aren't a lot of HR scores compared to the other mods - and my guess is because once someone can do AR10 they just go to higher level maps(which usually still don't have a high CS). And when I save as new diff just to have a thing that's undeniably the same but a little harder, I can't help but wonder why my scores are landing in the realm of "Doesn't count".
My question is if this "customization" is only allowed on CS and OD and they're only allowed to be increased and no option for anything to be decreased, would that be an acceptable feature?
Sorry, but I don't believe "free points" to be true at all.
It's the same thing to a better player because the better player is better. So yes they should be able to earn a little more, because they can do something a little tougher. With ease or not doesn't matter. DT is worthlessly easy to me on an easy map, a completely negligible increase in challenge, but it's still given credit for being DT.
It's the same thing to a better player because the better player is better. So yes they should be able to earn a little more, because they can do something a little tougher. With ease or not doesn't matter. DT is worthlessly easy to me on an easy map, a completely negligible increase in challenge, but it's still given credit for being DT.
I support this as an unranked mod. To use for practicing different AR/OD/HP etc.
This would be nice as unranked. It would be convenient for people who want to practice certain settings. Definitely don't want this as a score multiplier though.
This is one of those things that should have been here for ages, you can already do it by editing the map yet people can't spectate you/you got to update the map later/can't use it on multiplayer/etc.
I feel the need to bump this, guys. I hate having to change beatmaps with the editor. I wouldn't mind if this was unranked or ranked either.
This is a good point that was made, please notice this!vantheman wrote:
Sorry, but I don't believe "free points" to be true at all.
It's the same thing to a better player because the better player is better. So yes they should be able to earn a little more, because they can do something a little tougher. With ease or not doesn't matter. DT is worthlessly easy to me on an easy map, a completely negligible increase in challenge, but it's still given credit for being DT.
Please don't, the player gives the same performance they always would have no mod and gets more points? Absurd. If they want more points use HR.Bites wrote:
This is a good point that was made, please notice this!vantheman wrote:
Sorry, but I don't believe "free points" to be true at all.
It's the same thing to a better player because the better player is better. So yes they should be able to earn a little more, because they can do something a little tougher. With ease or not doesn't matter. DT is worthlessly easy to me on an easy map, a completely negligible increase in challenge, but it's still given credit for being DT.
Bump and 2 stars and here is my addition:
Akai Kyoko wrote:
For example, AR9 is a very important level for all CtB players. When I need to practise AR9, I have to search AR9 maps, but the easier maps, even AR8-insanes are not enough. So I should edit them, change to AR9, flip the notes and play them.
Also, AR10s are too hard to play ><
Otherwise, 'osu!' top players like change hard maps to AR10 but keep other property, such as CS and HP. Some map were uploaded to server but can never be ranked.
I wish there can be a custom unranked mod.
it can change the map difficulties, flip notes (horizentally or vertically) freely.
Also, in MP, it can be used like DT and HT to control global difficulty.
I believe it can make the game more fun.
I guess it could work. You can edit the CS/HP/AR/OD in the edit mode, but I'm too lazy to go to edit mode.
It'll be cool if it was an unranked mod.
It'll be cool if it was an unranked mod.
I don't see why this would be in any way harmful as long as it's in an unranked mode, unless Tom wants to weight it somehow in ppv2.
Honestly reworking DT and HR to allow for smaller increments doesn't seem like a bad idea (think stepmania). This would be a good first step, though.
Honestly reworking DT and HR to allow for smaller increments doesn't seem like a bad idea (think stepmania). This would be a good first step, though.
My opinion is still supreme. Unranked or go home and we all know how much peppy loves unranked mods.
Since you repeated yourself last time I figured I'd play for a while and think about it rather than repeat myself back at you. Seemed like decent etiquette. I realized I can't really speak about high level play since I can't do it, so I'll infer you're right about what you said before, so to restart my argument,
I think us casual players need something to make [hard] maps more interesting besides hard rock(as it exists right now), since AR10 is way beyond me even when I can do AR9. I'll play the whole way down my sort-by-difficulty on nofail, but the maps I can actually clear bore me so much that I've dropped the idea of playing for rank at all, let alone make anything like "meaningful progress" on the pp system. If "ranked small circle play" is the thing that interests me, I shouldn't have to push the difficulty off a 200 foot cliff via an unrelated setting to get it.
Maybe there's a better solution to the dilemma I describe then the one proposed in this thread. If you could point me there, it'd be helpful.
If you feel that people who aren't after the top margin of ranks don't matter at all in this community, or rather, shouldn't take any concern with the player ranking system, then I've got no further argument with you about this particular issue, since we disagree at the root of it.
I think us casual players need something to make [hard] maps more interesting besides hard rock(as it exists right now), since AR10 is way beyond me even when I can do AR9. I'll play the whole way down my sort-by-difficulty on nofail, but the maps I can actually clear bore me so much that I've dropped the idea of playing for rank at all, let alone make anything like "meaningful progress" on the pp system. If "ranked small circle play" is the thing that interests me, I shouldn't have to push the difficulty off a 200 foot cliff via an unrelated setting to get it.
Maybe there's a better solution to the dilemma I describe then the one proposed in this thread. If you could point me there, it'd be helpful.
If you feel that people who aren't after the top margin of ranks don't matter at all in this community, or rather, shouldn't take any concern with the player ranking system, then I've got no further argument with you about this particular issue, since we disagree at the root of it.
Problem with this mod is that you can pick which stats to increase. So people that can aim well but have terrible accuracy can just raise CS but not OD, the accuracy players who have very small error can just raise OD up until it becomes a problem, etc. It doesn't affect how they play at all but still gives them bonus.vantheman wrote:
Since you repeated yourself last time I figured I'd play for a while and think about it rather than repeat myself back at you. Seemed like decent etiquette. I realized I can't really speak about high level play since I can't do it, so I'll infer you're right about what you said before, so to restart my argument,
I think us casual players need something to make [hard] maps more interesting besides hard rock(as it exists right now), since AR10 is way beyond me even when I can do AR9. I'll play the whole way down my sort-by-difficulty on nofail, but the maps I can actually clear bore me so much that I've dropped the idea of playing for rank at all, let alone make anything like "meaningful progress" on the pp system. If "ranked small circle play" is the thing that interests me, I shouldn't have to push the difficulty off a 200 foot cliff via an unrelated setting to get it.
Maybe there's a better solution to the dilemma I describe then the one proposed in this thread. If you could point me there, it'd be helpful.
If you feel that people who aren't after the top margin of ranks don't matter at all in this community, or rather, shouldn't take any concern with the player ranking system, then I've got no further argument with you about this particular issue, since we disagree at the root of it.
And casual players don't even need any score boosts; competitive players do. I don't understand why the score boosts should be considered just for casual players and break the top 50 scoreboards where the scores actually matter.
certainly the math the OP mentioned breaks things, but you just need to apply some non-linear scaling as things get further away from the map settings so that there's no making things stupidly easy for huge bonuses. I think the OPs math is too simplistic but also pretty irrelevant, it's the concept of adjust-ability that's important. Bumped this thread specifically because he seemed to word the concept best. For the numbers, just work things so that the current best multipliers are the best that the settings can reach anyway, and only through settings that match the current ones, and the top 50s won't break or come to represent anything false.
It's also about, aside from adding more texture to the landscape, mixing things up day-to-day without having the records ignore the play. Ranked play has benefit over unranked even if you aren't in it for the ranks, that being the statistical tracking for a stronger competition with self.
What? I don't understand why you said that. When I play a map with 40k scores on it, and a tiny difference throws me ahead several thousand ranks, the more variety there can be in the scores(such as through the incremental changes proposed) the better. Do you think scores below the top 50 don't matter? If so then the game shouldn't even give any rank at the end unless you get one of those. There's your 50 rungs on a ladder, but I play for the altitude on a mountain.-[Koinuri] wrote:
And casual players don't even need any score boosts; competitive players do.
It's also about, aside from adding more texture to the landscape, mixing things up day-to-day without having the records ignore the play. Ranked play has benefit over unranked even if you aren't in it for the ranks, that being the statistical tracking for a stronger competition with self.
It would be nice to play some insanes and hards in ar 11 without dt required :p
I meant casual players don't need boosts as much as competitive players. Bad wording >.>
Someone going from 1000th place to 900th on a map means significantly less than someone going from 50th to 49th, so it's natural to favor competitive players over casual players for score boosts.
The non-linear scaling would still break scoreboards. You have to realize that people going for score aren't looking for ways to make map difficult, but just ways to increase their score. HP, for example, means almost nothing when fcing with high accuracy (unless the spinner is too long), so people going for high score would favor HP 10 with this mod over HR despite the fact that the difficulty didn't increase from no mod in terms of fcing with high accuracy. Eventually the scoreboard becomes how much difficulty they can raise without making maps difficult, and people playing no mod will be forced to use this mod to do absolutely nothing in order to get more points to be on scoreboards. It'll be treated like HD, they just put it on because they give more points even though it doesn't necessarily make the map difficult.
Someone going from 1000th place to 900th on a map means significantly less than someone going from 50th to 49th, so it's natural to favor competitive players over casual players for score boosts.
The non-linear scaling would still break scoreboards. You have to realize that people going for score aren't looking for ways to make map difficult, but just ways to increase their score. HP, for example, means almost nothing when fcing with high accuracy (unless the spinner is too long), so people going for high score would favor HP 10 with this mod over HR despite the fact that the difficulty didn't increase from no mod in terms of fcing with high accuracy. Eventually the scoreboard becomes how much difficulty they can raise without making maps difficult, and people playing no mod will be forced to use this mod to do absolutely nothing in order to get more points to be on scoreboards. It'll be treated like HD, they just put it on because they give more points even though it doesn't necessarily make the map difficult.
ugh, HP drain as it relates to score
don't even get me started
why does nofail give less points when if you're using it you're probably getting less points anyway? why does it give less points when sudden death doesn't give more? why does the game have hp drain at all?
But anyway, the issue you stated, my opinion would be, no increase for increased HP drain, but decrease for decreasing it, seems to be consistent with the game's current scoring treatment of hp drain changes.
I acknowledge it'd be a really nuanced thing to make it fit in the game, but I think allowing players to tweak things to their preferences without losing benefits of ranked play, even if the only fair way to do it is give flat 1.0 for most changes making it harder and big multiplier decreases for changes making it easier, would be a really great addition.
don't even get me started
why does nofail give less points when if you're using it you're probably getting less points anyway? why does it give less points when sudden death doesn't give more? why does the game have hp drain at all?
But anyway, the issue you stated, my opinion would be, no increase for increased HP drain, but decrease for decreasing it, seems to be consistent with the game's current scoring treatment of hp drain changes.
I acknowledge it'd be a really nuanced thing to make it fit in the game, but I think allowing players to tweak things to their preferences without losing benefits of ranked play, even if the only fair way to do it is give flat 1.0 for most changes making it harder and big multiplier decreases for changes making it easier, would be a really great addition.
I believe CS, AR and OD should be the only factors affecting score. Ideally to me, this feature request should be viewed in the angle of splitting the HR and EZ mod up into smaller segments. As HP provides no hindrance to players who are going for high accuracy FCs, however can make the map much easier than intended to be, HP should instead be an unranked change. OD, AR and CS make the map more difficult; OD making it much harder to have a high accuracy, AR reducing the amount of time provided to react to the circles and CS making it harder to aim the circles.-[Koinuri] wrote:
I meant casual players don't need boosts as much as competitive players. Bad wording >.>
Someone going from 1000th place to 900th on a map means significantly less than someone going from 50th to 49th, so it's natural to favor competitive players over casual players for score boosts.
The non-linear scaling would still break scoreboards. You have to realize that people going for score aren't looking for ways to make map difficult, but just ways to increase their score. HP, for example, means almost nothing when fcing with high accuracy (unless the spinner is too long), so people going for high score would favor HP 10 with this mod over HR despite the fact that the difficulty didn't increase from no mod in terms of fcing with high accuracy. Eventually the scoreboard becomes how much difficulty they can raise without making maps difficult, and people playing no mod will be forced to use this mod to do absolutely nothing in order to get more points to be on scoreboards. It'll be treated like HD, they just put it on because they give more points even though it doesn't necessarily make the map difficult.
Although I do not have specific values for the score multipliers, using HR, where the score multiplier is 1.06x for an increase of HP, CS, AR and OD, the OD increase would theoretically be worth 1.03x, CS worth 1.02x and AR worth 1.01x.
When using the "EZ" mod as an example, where the score multiplier is 0.5x, the multiplier ratio would be in the proportions stated above.
TL;DR: Should be worth OD > CS > AR. HP should be unranked.
Well now that we have some idea about how to balance the mod from competitive perspective, we can now look at things from casual player's point of view, since the point of this mod getting ranked score was more to benefit the casual players (for vantheman at least) than competitive players getting more mod to get free points.
First, the HP getting unranked will upset many casual players because no matter how difficult the map is, raising its HP and passing it will give no boost at all. Then the value of OD also becomes a problem. Accuracy only starts to matter when you can fc the map since the multiplier from combo gives way more points than getting high accuracy, so in casual player's point of view, assuming they're only passing and not comboing much, OD is more of a free point. Balancing this mod for both group of players require more work than it's worth imo.
Another thing to note is that AR is more of a preference thing and the difficulty can vary depending on the BPM of the map. Higher BPM means more notes per second, which makes higher AR easier to play since the amount of notes on screen decrease and you don't have to read as much notes. It's a preference because people have different idea about the ideal amount of notes on screen. So putting static multiplier on AR isn't a good idea, and I'm sure peppy would agree since he implemented adjustable scroll speed on osu!mania which is equivalent to AR on standard.
If the setting is adjustable with practically zero benefit/disadvantage, then we might as well remove the difficulty setting on editor and put it in this mod so people can do whatever they want with it, which doesn't really make much sense.
Someone made a program that create new difficulty with adjust difficulty of your entire library (though it'll be unranked obviously) so if you're just looking for quick way to make map a bit more difficult you can use this: t/201768
First, the HP getting unranked will upset many casual players because no matter how difficult the map is, raising its HP and passing it will give no boost at all. Then the value of OD also becomes a problem. Accuracy only starts to matter when you can fc the map since the multiplier from combo gives way more points than getting high accuracy, so in casual player's point of view, assuming they're only passing and not comboing much, OD is more of a free point. Balancing this mod for both group of players require more work than it's worth imo.
Another thing to note is that AR is more of a preference thing and the difficulty can vary depending on the BPM of the map. Higher BPM means more notes per second, which makes higher AR easier to play since the amount of notes on screen decrease and you don't have to read as much notes. It's a preference because people have different idea about the ideal amount of notes on screen. So putting static multiplier on AR isn't a good idea, and I'm sure peppy would agree since he implemented adjustable scroll speed on osu!mania which is equivalent to AR on standard.
If the setting is adjustable with practically zero benefit/disadvantage, then we might as well remove the difficulty setting on editor and put it in this mod so people can do whatever they want with it, which doesn't really make much sense.
Someone made a program that create new difficulty with adjust difficulty of your entire library (though it'll be unranked obviously) so if you're just looking for quick way to make map a bit more difficult you can use this: t/201768
Would love this as an unranked mod. Would be terrible as a ranked mod (and even worse now that we have decimal map settings, but it was terrible before that).
This can never work as a ranked mod.
yep. too many variables to consider unlike mania where it simply changes the amount of buttons you can pressjesus1412 wrote:
This can never work as a ranked mod.
I'd love a mod like this rather than having to go to editor or pollute my song library with remakes of a map in different settings, and having spectators that can't even spectate because it becomes a different map.
Increasing HP drain without point increase is already in the game. Sudden Death, Perfect.-[Koinuri] wrote:
First, the HP getting unranked will upset many casual players because no matter how difficult the map is, raising its HP and passing it will give no boost at all. Then the value of OD also becomes a problem.
HP Drain is an extremely meaningless aspect of the game, imo, could we not talk about it? The concept of "passing" a song is just an arbitrary performance milestone, separate from either total accuracy or combo length, I think the change would be negligible if passing/failing songs was removed tomorrow.
A performance meter and a graph on the score screen showing your weak spots does make sense, but I feel that "dying" in a game is something a majority of games implement but whole genres of them don't need it to function.
Accuracy only starts to matter when you can fc the map since the multiplier from combo gives way more points than getting high accuracy, so in casual player's point of view, assuming they're only passing and not comboing much, OD is more of a free point.I don't think I understand this sentence, the way you've phrased it. A casual player sees getting a higher multiplier for making the hit timing stricter as free? That doesn't make sense. Since that's what OD does, it makes FC harder, it makes passing harder, it makes any score at all harder.
I used to like this
But now I strongly disagree
Just go to editor, save as new diff and modify stats
The closest thing I think might be okay, is a extra menu, where you can set all stats, but, unless it's the normal values, it will NOT be ranked
But now I strongly disagree
Just go to editor, save as new diff and modify stats
The closest thing I think might be okay, is a extra menu, where you can set all stats, but, unless it's the normal values, it will NOT be ranked
Those are used mostly to make restart process easier for people that want to fc/ss the map, completely different purpose from HP increase which is to make the map more difficult.vantheman wrote:
Increasing HP drain without point increase is already in the game. Sudden Death, Perfect.
HP Drain is an extremely meaningless aspect of the game, imo, could we not talk about it? The concept of "passing" a song is just an arbitrary performance milestone, separate from either total accuracy or combo length, I think the change would be negligible if passing/failing songs was removed tomorrow.
A performance meter and a graph on the score screen showing your weak spots does make sense, but I feel that "dying" in a game is something a majority of games implement but whole genres of them don't need it to function.
But majority of players actually prefer passing difficult maps over scoring on maps they know they can do, and it wouldn't be fair to those people to not experience some bonus for their achievement. Have to consider players from every aspect if you want to add this to the public build.
vantheman wrote:
I don't think I understand this sentence, the way you've phrased it. A casual player sees getting a higher multiplier for making the hit timing stricter as free? That doesn't make sense. Since that's what OD does, it makes FC harder, it makes passing harder, it makes any score at all harder.
stuff
Aqo wrote:
You do realize that in other rhythm games you literally get nothing for non-perfect hits.
For instance the beatmania standard is
Glowing Great (called PGreat in short)
Great
Good
Bad
Poor (a miss)
You get 2 points for PGreat, which is OD11, 1 point for Great, which is OD10, and zero points for Good, which is OD8, anything below is also zero points.
Osu is lenient as hell in accuracy.
Raising OD will make getting accuracy more difficult, but not fc. You literally have to try to miss notes by pressing too early/late because of how lenient osu is compared to other rhythm games around. It doesn't affect passing of maps that much because HP is usually set very low in most maps (6-7 for most insane), getting couple more 100s is not enough to fail you.
In osu!, combo is worth a lot more than accuracy. It basically multiplies combo and the points you received, + a bit more complicated stuff. A person getting all 100s on 400x combos get more point than people getting all 300s on 100x combos for example. So this just boosts points without affecting the scoring difficulty as much as it would on the competitive level. This creates some balancing problem, if the bonus is too low, then competitive players will get upset, if the bonus is too high, then casual players get more points than they should.
First thanks for taking the time to explain all that to me, it's more complicated than it initially seems, and it becomes sort of obvious that while not impossible, it'd be asking the developer for a lot of their time trying to make it happen. While it'd be nice, "more" points isn't the exact thing that I want or care about or even the reason I come to this thread, it's being able to play things at higher OD and CS(separate from AR, it's why I can't use hardrock) to challenge myself on those specific points on the maps I enjoy, without losing the benefits of ranked play
So new idea, if all we want to do is incrementally move up OD and CS (or HP for the people who are into that) to custom values, is there a reason to unrank the play? Deliberately leaving AR away from the idea because higher AR is easier for some and that's a good reason to unrank it.
But I don't know why anybody would say a higher OD and/or a higher CS was an easier score so there'd be no reason to unrank it for increasing those in any amount,
so is there a problem with such a mod that only allows increase, doesn't unrank and doesn't affect the multiplier?
Only thing I can imagine is that maybe there's some finer technical point of mapping I'm not getting
Since this is now a different thing, a new thread might be in order, to re-align discussion and let this part of the debate sink, since I consider the "more points" part of it resolved and that's a big part of this thread
So new idea, if all we want to do is incrementally move up OD and CS (or HP for the people who are into that) to custom values, is there a reason to unrank the play? Deliberately leaving AR away from the idea because higher AR is easier for some and that's a good reason to unrank it.
But I don't know why anybody would say a higher OD and/or a higher CS was an easier score so there'd be no reason to unrank it for increasing those in any amount,
so is there a problem with such a mod that only allows increase, doesn't unrank and doesn't affect the multiplier?
Only thing I can imagine is that maybe there's some finer technical point of mapping I'm not getting
Since this is now a different thing, a new thread might be in order, to re-align discussion and let this part of the debate sink, since I consider the "more points" part of it resolved and that's a big part of this thread
Then I would change everything to AR10.
*throws my 24 stars*
Yes as unranked mod please.
makes it faster then creating a whole new map diff.
Also, would love to use this in multi.
ranked? not an option.
makes it faster then creating a whole new map diff.
Also, would love to use this in multi.
ranked? not an option.
What I would really love is the ability to raise approach rate on any map, but not lower it (not talking about ones you create yourself).
Example:
- A beatmap at AR6:
- Ability to raise it to AR7, AR8, AR9, AR10
- NO ability to lower the AR.
- NO change in points by changing AR.
Example:
- A beatmap at AR6:
- Ability to raise it to AR7, AR8, AR9, AR10
- NO ability to lower the AR.
- NO change in points by changing AR.
So what you're saying is that you want the ability to make maps easier with no penalty.Ash Marley wrote:
What I would really love is the ability to raise approach rate on any map, but not lower it (not talking about ones you create yourself).
Example:
- A beatmap at AR6:
- Ability to raise it to AR7, AR8, AR9, AR10
- NO ability to lower the AR.
- NO change in points by changing AR.
As far as I'm concerned, any changes to these outside the HR/EZ mods should be unranked. It would make no sense to do something like trying to adjust a multiplier based on the specific changes you make (or anything similar). You can argue that we can already do this by saving a new difficulty with altered settings, but nobody wants to have to do that for every difficulty they feel like playing with modified settings. It breaks the flow since you have to enter the editor, make changes, save it, and then go back into play mode. Adding them to the mod menu does nothing more than make this process easier and mean you don't need to add unranked difficulties directly to the beatmap.
Assuming that adjusting these settings makes your score unranked, this shouldn't even be seen as having anything to do with gameplay in the first place. It's really more of a user experience issue. It's already entirely possible within the game, it's just more time consuming and annoying than it needs to be.
Assuming that adjusting these settings makes your score unranked, this shouldn't even be seen as having anything to do with gameplay in the first place. It's really more of a user experience issue. It's already entirely possible within the game, it's just more time consuming and annoying than it needs to be.
Though I can't really see myself using this personally, I can understand that a lot of players may like the implementation of this feature.
However, if something like this is implemented, I would have to agree with Bobbias:
So long as everything remains unranked I wouldn't have an issue and I believe that it could (and would) be a useful feature for many players to have, both for recreational and learning purposes.
However, if something like this is implemented, I would have to agree with Bobbias:
In my opinion, this would create too many variables in the ranked statistics and the scores could become skewed because of it. If you want to make the map easier or harder in a ranked fashion then the mods available already provide that.Bobbias wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, any changes to these outside the HR/EZ mods should be unranked.
So long as everything remains unranked I wouldn't have an issue and I believe that it could (and would) be a useful feature for many players to have, both for recreational and learning purposes.
Bumping?
Just mentioning that now the pp system takes AR (although, needs to be 10.3 or higher) to grant extra pp but not for most of common ARs.
CS and OD directly effects map's pp reward but AR doesn't effect PP in pretty much every case other than DTing 9AR maps, and for HP, adding a nofail mod will grant you 10% less pp (which isn't too much to be honest imo).
So here's the question : while pp being the primary ranking system (and the pp system pretty much disregards every AR between 0~10.2), why don't we make AR customizable?
Just give it a same amount of penalty when the AR goes below 10.3 because of this feature.
I honestly think ARs are now more like preferences. While I do have to agree that AR10 somehow requires "reading" ability, I don't think AR7.5~AR9.7 requires actual "skill".
setting a ironed AR value for a "Extra" difficulty map makes it harder for players to fully enjoy the map. Especially between AR 8.5~9.7, it's more like preference (some like higher, some likes lower.)
For some old extremely hard maps with AR9, they feel too slow. However AR10 on some maps(talking about the material, big black, fd, etc) seems to be too much, while they still fit better than AR9, but I'm pretty sure that maps would had AR9.1~AR9.9 if the option was available at the moment.
This will not only help players to enjoy the game more by using AR of their preference, but it will also increase the value of old maps with AR7(which most of people do not like these days) and maps that didn't have decimal AR values as option(like i mentioned above).
although I called it "preference" there definitely are lots of maps that doesnt not have their best AR due to various reason(like AR7 being mainstream, AR 8 being mainstream, mapper choosing AR of his/her own preference, decimal ARs not being available).
Just mentioning that now the pp system takes AR (although, needs to be 10.3 or higher) to grant extra pp but not for most of common ARs.
CS and OD directly effects map's pp reward but AR doesn't effect PP in pretty much every case other than DTing 9AR maps, and for HP, adding a nofail mod will grant you 10% less pp (which isn't too much to be honest imo).
So here's the question : while pp being the primary ranking system (and the pp system pretty much disregards every AR between 0~10.2), why don't we make AR customizable?
Just give it a same amount of penalty when the AR goes below 10.3 because of this feature.
I honestly think ARs are now more like preferences. While I do have to agree that AR10 somehow requires "reading" ability, I don't think AR7.5~AR9.7 requires actual "skill".
setting a ironed AR value for a "Extra" difficulty map makes it harder for players to fully enjoy the map. Especially between AR 8.5~9.7, it's more like preference (some like higher, some likes lower.)
For some old extremely hard maps with AR9, they feel too slow. However AR10 on some maps(talking about the material, big black, fd, etc) seems to be too much, while they still fit better than AR9, but I'm pretty sure that maps would had AR9.1~AR9.9 if the option was available at the moment.
This will not only help players to enjoy the game more by using AR of their preference, but it will also increase the value of old maps with AR7(which most of people do not like these days) and maps that didn't have decimal AR values as option(like i mentioned above).
although I called it "preference" there definitely are lots of maps that doesnt not have their best AR due to various reason(like AR7 being mainstream, AR 8 being mainstream, mapper choosing AR of his/her own preference, decimal ARs not being available).
You used to get bonus pp for AR greater than 10 or AR less than 8. The recent change made it so you need AR greater than 10.3 or less than 8 in order to get bonus pp.haha5957 wrote:
Just mentioning that now the pp system takes AR (although, needs to be 10.3 or higher) to grant extra pp but not for most of common ARs.
why don't we make AR customizable?Most rhythm games do allow you to choose your own value for their equivalent of approach rate, but I think it makes sense for osu! to be different. osu! is only 50% rhythm game. The aim component of the game is what makes it unique and the aim is influenced pretty heavily by AR in a way that doesn't factor into other rhythm games. Choosing an AR for a map is essentially placing a pivot point to balance out two different types of reading ability. On one side (lower AR), you have a type of reading that's more or less specific to aim. On the other, you have ability to identify notes fast/to react quickly (high AR). When rhythm games allow players to choose their AR-equivalent, players end up choosing the highest value they can read and the same would be true in osu! (for sufficiently difficult maps, anyway) because it makes playing the map easier. You say that you don't think that AR7.5 to 9.7 require 'actual "skill" ', but do you realize just how arbitrary those numbers are? To someone who can read AR10.3 fluently and never plays anything much lower, reading AR10 might not require actual skill, whereas anything below 9 will be horrifyingly difficult. Reading any map, regardless of AR or object density, requires some amount of skill, with the amount of skill varying depending on the AR and the map and with there being some balance between the two types of reading skill required. It can be said that AR adds "artificial difficulty" to a map and I think that might have been what you wanted to say. If so, that's a fair opinion, but I disagree with it. The ability to play a map at a certain AR is so closely tied into aim that reading different ARs is a real measure of difficulty in osu! imo. At the values we normally see for the maps we normally play (for example, between 7.5 and 9.7 for you), this is a little less obvious, though I think you'll really start to notice it around the lower end of that range.
I would love to have a mod that changes map settings and I really hope this gets implemented at some point, but it absolutely has to be unranked (or partly ranked with a large penalty). You can't just change the AR and still be playing the same map - and you certainly can't change OD or CS and still be playing the same map either. On a related note, HR is a mess of a mod that does too many things but that's not important to this thread.
TL;DR Changing any values to bend to your whim is ridiculous unless you receive 100% penalization for it.haha5957 wrote:
Bumping?
Just mentioning that now the pp system takes AR (although, needs to be 10.3 or higher) to grant extra pp but not for most of common ARs. Bonuses to pp for AR are for AR>10.33 and AR<8 (not inclusive).
CS and OD directly effects map's pp reward but AR doesn't effect PP in pretty much every case other than DTing 9AR maps, and for HP, adding a nofail mod will grant you 10% less pp (which isn't too much to be honest imo). CS affects pp the way it does because it directly increases the difficult, aiming is harder so keeping combo is harder, hence higher CS results in more pp. OD effects pp the way it does because it makes timing a perfect hit genuinely so much harder (and hence it rewards the player for managing to hit the notes correctly, rather than for just holding combo). The only reason AR doesn't effect pp as drastically as the others is because figuring out why lower/higher AR would be difficult on a map and determining the caliber of the reward deserved is very hard (if possible), not just because the difficulty of AR is so subjective but also because understanding why anything to do with reading is difficult is beyond what we currently know how to do.
So here's the question : while pp being the primary ranking system (and the pp system pretty much disregards every AR between 0~10.2), why don't we make AR customizable? We understand the effects of higher/lower cs a lot better than we understand the effects of AR numerically on difficulty, if we can have different approach rates on songs then we should also be able to have select other values. AR is the LEST UNDERSTOOD difficulty modifier, it's difficulty can be very subjective from person to person BUT there is a huge general consensus on certain ARs that are harder than others on given maps. If popular opinion says that something is hard then pp should say that that thing is hard.
Just give it a same amount of penalty when the AR goes below 10.3 because of this feature. "Just give the same penalty when you change the CS."
I honestly think ARs are now more like preferences. While I do have to agree that AR10 somehow requires "reading" ability, I don't think AR7.5~AR9.7 requires actual "skill". See here we again have another diverging opinion, AR10 in my opinion requires absolutely 0 reading ability to me while AR<=9 require godly understanding of the map. CLEARY we can see that high and low ARs require different skills, why should someone who has mastered all of the approach rates over multiple years of playing have their ability essentially made irrelevant just because some other people don't want to take the time to learn a variety of approach rates?
setting a ironed AR value for a "Extra" difficulty map makes it harder for players to fully enjoy the map. Especially between AR 8.5~9.7, it's more like preference (some like higher, some likes lower.) If the map has lower AR and you don't like it that's completely YOUR fault for not being capable, PLAY MORE just like everyone else did to get comfortable at low AR. The mapper made the map with a given approach rate in mind, just like they selected the CS and the drain and the placement of notes, it is part of the experience, changing the AR of the map can completely change the intensity of it.
For some old extremely hard maps with AR9, they feel too slow. However AR10 on some maps(talking about the material, big black, fd, etc) seems to be too much, while they still fit better than AR9, but I'm pretty sure that maps would had AR9.1~AR9.9. If the option was available at the moment. I can almost guarantee the majority of people can play those maps properly would want ar10 on them, it just makes reading them easier. If they prefer the lower AR? Great they have a skill that's beyond all of the other top players, let's not take their skill and tell them that because no one else wants to learn it we're going to make it an avoidable skill to learn.
This will not only help players to enjoy the game more by using AR of their preference, but it will also increase the value of old maps with AR7(which most of people do not like these days) and maps that didn't have decimal AR values as option(like i mentioned above). People may prefer having the ability to change AR yes, but they would also like the ability to slow down the map or shrink jumps. People want to change the AR because it feels easier to them, that's not okay. People should not be given the luxury of making the map easier at will with no penalties when other people struggle through on the more difficult settings and get no rewards.
although I called it "preference" there definitely are lots of maps that doesnt not have their best AR due to various reason(like AR7 being mainstream, AR 8 being mainstream, mapper choosing AR of his/her own preference, decimal ARs not being available). "Best AR" is just the AR that you personally find easiest, I guarantee there are maps you play now and you think "wow I'd like a lower AR on that" but in a few months you will think you were crazy. There is no "best" AR on a map, there is the set AR and it's an obstacle you have to tackle.
^ maybe unranked mods? :O
ok my bad on not knowing about getting extra pp for AR8 or lower lol
~ "Best AR" is just the AR that you personally find easiest
~ If the map has lower AR and you don't like it that's completely YOUR fault for not being capable,
Ok than I should start using AR1.0 on my extra difficulty map and call it "ITS UR FAULT MASTER UR LOWER AR SKILLz" right?
When you map something, people wants to set AR to where you can read it easily.. Try to use AR8 on extreme hard map and let's see what kind of response you get. Have you ever thought why mappers get AR mods? if it's all about ability there should have been tons of AR4 and AR2 maps and there is not. No extra difficulty with AR5 will be ranked because it just does not make sense to most of people.
Now that you called "Best AR is just the AR that you personally find easiest"... of course. And the map's AR is also supposed to be the "Best AR" for most of people.
~ "Best AR" is just the AR that you personally find easiest
~ If the map has lower AR and you don't like it that's completely YOUR fault for not being capable,
Ok than I should start using AR1.0 on my extra difficulty map and call it "ITS UR FAULT MASTER UR LOWER AR SKILLz" right?
When you map something, people wants to set AR to where you can read it easily.. Try to use AR8 on extreme hard map and let's see what kind of response you get. Have you ever thought why mappers get AR mods? if it's all about ability there should have been tons of AR4 and AR2 maps and there is not. No extra difficulty with AR5 will be ranked because it just does not make sense to most of people.
Now that you called "Best AR is just the AR that you personally find easiest"... of course. And the map's AR is also supposed to be the "Best AR" for most of people.
sorry for the double post but i somehow do not see the edit button even i hovered over post.
w/e
You are completely wrong if you think mappers set AR to give players challenge. ARs are there for the best fit, not to challenge players. if a mapper tries to troll with AR? the map will not be ranked.
However players are getting unintentionally trolled(when they aren't supposed to be in point of "mapper's view") because old maps tend to have AR7 or lower.
w/e
You are completely wrong if you think mappers set AR to give players challenge. ARs are there for the best fit, not to challenge players. if a mapper tries to troll with AR? the map will not be ranked.
However players are getting unintentionally trolled(when they aren't supposed to be in point of "mapper's view") because old maps tend to have AR7 or lower.
why can't you just accept that mappers want you to play the map this way, you're the player, you shouldn't be able to edit it in any way
some may argue that in guitar hero/ddr/stepmania you can change the speed which notes come
but osu! is a different game and you should deal with it
respect the mappers' choice
also, don't ruin old maps, please.
some may argue that in guitar hero/ddr/stepmania you can change the speed which notes come
but osu! is a different game and you should deal with it
respect the mappers' choice
also, don't ruin old maps, please.
Because HR already gives me a choice and I like my small-ass circles.Blue Dragon wrote:
why can't you just accept that mappers want you to play the map this way
If this gets implemented mappers can start mapping with crazy values since the player will use his/her own values.
^ this kind of reasoning is really stupid. What osu!'s mappers do is to grant a good standard for beatmaps. With this feature they will lose some of their merits, which I find really unfair, beacuse mapping isn't easy (try it and you'll see)
I completely disagree with this, sorry
^ this kind of reasoning is really stupid. What osu!'s mappers do is to grant a good standard for beatmaps. With this feature they will lose some of their merits, which I find really unfair, beacuse mapping isn't easy (try it and you'll see)
I completely disagree with this, sorry
That's only true for changeable ARs, because it wouldn't be clear how to give it a score multiplier, and I don't support that.[-MrSergio-] wrote:
If this gets implemented mappers can start mapping with crazy values since the player will use his/her own values.
^ this kind of reasoning is really stupid. What osu!'s mappers do is to grant a good standard for beatmaps. With this feature they will lose some of their merits, which I find really unfair, beacuse mapping isn't easy (try it and you'll see)
I completely disagree with this, sorry
But changeable CS and OD harm no one, give them a higher score multiplier if they're higher than the mapper's default choice, a lower score multiplier if not. There's literally no more encouragement or discouragement of crazy values than there are right now.
Mappers can do whatever they want right now anyway, but you don't see them mapping AR6 CS3 OD5 5* maps and saying "lol just HR it if you want reasonable CS, AR and OD".
And honestly I'm tired of 6* maps locked to OD7/8 for literally no reason, I hate that if I want to play a map "the way the mapper intended it" without ruining the song with DT, I have to downgrade to a non-rhythm game.
I would like to see something like this very bad... But UNRANKED. In this way, you can make it very simple without thinking about balance.
Actually, I like to play in AR10, but this is annoying to edit my maps one by one. Same thing if I want to play them with CS at 3.4 or/with OD at 10, for exemple.
Basically, what you can do while editing a map but as unranked mods (4 mods = CS/HP/AR/OD), and being able to mix them like you want.
With that, you can play your maps like you want without editing them.
This is interesting for practice too.
I don't think it would be difficult to make.
Actually, I like to play in AR10, but this is annoying to edit my maps one by one. Same thing if I want to play them with CS at 3.4 or/with OD at 10, for exemple.
Basically, what you can do while editing a map but as unranked mods (4 mods = CS/HP/AR/OD), and being able to mix them like you want.
With that, you can play your maps like you want without editing them.
This is interesting for practice too.
I don't think it would be difficult to make.
+2, make it unranked, I don't like having to go in to editor and make separate diffs :u
If this is made, AR should not modify score at all.
HP can change your score, but it only by decreasing it. Increasing HP shouldn't increase your score.
CS should change your score if you're increasing CS, and decreasing it if you're lowering CS.
OD should increase your score if you're increasing OD, and decreasing it if you're lowering OD.
Since people often argue that higher AR is easier to read, we shouldn't reward that.
For HP, the map difficulty isn't really being increased, you're just punished more for mistakes, so it shouldn't increase score either.
CS can increase difficulty, so it should modify score.
OD can increase difficulty as well, so likewise, it should increase score.
HP can change your score, but it only by decreasing it. Increasing HP shouldn't increase your score.
CS should change your score if you're increasing CS, and decreasing it if you're lowering CS.
OD should increase your score if you're increasing OD, and decreasing it if you're lowering OD.
Since people often argue that higher AR is easier to read, we shouldn't reward that.
For HP, the map difficulty isn't really being increased, you're just punished more for mistakes, so it shouldn't increase score either.
CS can increase difficulty, so it should modify score.
OD can increase difficulty as well, so likewise, it should increase score.
And how do you think OD would be increased in mania for example? Do you think peppy will magically create something that would let the game add LNs AND make them logical and playable?[Aibou] wrote:
If this is made, AR should not modify score at all.
HP can change your score, but it only by decreasing it. Increasing HP shouldn't increase your score.
CS should change your score if you're increasing CS, and decreasing it if you're lowering CS.
OD should increase your score if you're increasing OD, and decreasing it if you're lowering OD.
Since people often argue that higher AR is easier to read, we shouldn't reward that.
For HP, the map difficulty isn't really being increased, you're just punished more for mistakes, so it shouldn't increase score either.
CS can increase difficulty, so it should modify score.
OD can increase difficulty as well, so likewise, it should increase score.
LNs? I don't play osumania, so I could be completely oblivious when saying this, but we could just make it more difficult to hit 300s.Transformau5 wrote:
And how do you think OD would be increased in mania for example? Do you think peppy will magically create something that would let the game add LNs AND make them logical and playable?
[Aibou] wrote:
If this is made, AR should not modify score at all.
HP can change your score, but it only by decreasing it. Increasing HP shouldn't increase your score.
CS should change your score if you're increasing CS, and decreasing it if you're lowering CS.
OD should increase your score if you're increasing OD, and decreasing it if you're lowering OD.
Since people often argue that higher AR is easier to read, we shouldn't reward that.
For HP, the map difficulty isn't really being increased, you're just punished more for mistakes, so it shouldn't increase score either.
CS can increase difficulty, so it should modify score.
OD can increase difficulty as well, so likewise, it should increase score.
Modifying AR should definitely unrank, else it would make DT so much easier.
LNS= long notes.[Aibou] wrote:
LNs? I don't play osumania, so I could be completely oblivious when saying this, but we could just make it more difficult to hit 300s.Transformau5 wrote:
And how do you think OD would be increased in mania for example? Do you think peppy will magically create something that would let the game add LNs AND make them logical and playable?
Never thought about this, this is definitely something we'll need to factor in. Maybe when DT and AR mods are used in combination, score is decreased?Gunsillie wrote:
Modifying AR should definitely unrank, else it would make DT so much easier.
Oh, alright. Care to elaborate as to how it's impossible to implement though? Aren't LNs already in the game? If LNs are the same as sliders in osu, make it so holding the notes have a tighter release time.Transformau5 wrote:
LNS= long notes.
it sounds really great and I want this system to practice AR10
LNs are in the game, the game can't create them itself, though. Osu! doesn't have a magical sound recognition system, it doesn't know whether adding a long note here or there makes any sense, it can't tell the difference before making a jackhammer on spacebar or a trill on 2 rightmost columns OR a long note beginning in the same point another one finishes. That's a thing that was screwed up on autoconverts and would likely be screwed up here too.[Aibou] wrote:
Never thought about this, this is definitely something we'll need to factor in. Maybe when DT and AR mods are used in combination, score is decreased?Gunsillie wrote:
Modifying AR should definitely unrank, else it would make DT so much easier.Oh, alright. Care to elaborate as to how it's impossible to implement though? Aren't LNs already in the game? If LNs are the same as sliders in osu, make it so holding the notes have a tighter release time.Transformau5 wrote:
LNS= long notes.
trash aim_old
How can you respect the mappers' choice when you use 100% dim? Stop being a hypocrite. Visual settings killed mappers' choice.Blue Dragon wrote:
why can't you just accept that mappers want you to play the map this way, you're the player, you shouldn't be able to edit it in any way
some may argue that in guitar hero/ddr/stepmania you can change the speed which notes come
but osu! is a different game and you should deal with it
respect the mappers' choice
also, don't ruin old maps, please.
I see no problem with this as a ranked mod. 0.3x score, plus/minus any gains from difficulty change and 10% PP, plus/minus any PP gains from the change in difficulty. Players who do not care about ranking (a small minority) will abuse this mod to enjoy the game and they will not affect any rankings other than having a ridiculously deflated rank. Players who do care about ranking (pretty much everyone else) will use this mod to practice/fix stupid problems with maps.
to fix stupid problems with maps? How can you seriously say that? If you're not good enough to hit a tricky spaced single pattern in a map and use bigger circles to allow you to play it in a straight line, are you fixing stupid problems with the map? If you're completely incapable of playing squares and need to raise the AR in order to see the individual circles, are you fixing stupid problems with the map? If you can't pass a map because your accuracy sucks and you need to lower the OD, are you fixing stupid problems with the map? No, you're entirely changing how the map plays. While it's honestly probably a good thing that HR exists, it's an awful mod. The increased OD is good. It helps to separate people who can SS the map normally because osu! hit windows are pretty damn huge. Smaller circles are a mixed bag. It makes some patterns fucking impossible and barely changes some others, but people can just avoid using it on maps that have hellish patterns so it's okay. Increased drain is kinda stupid for HR to have with the way drain works in osu!, but meh. Increased AR on it is awful. It gives a non-map-dependent you-must-be-this-tall sign for any insane or above map (aka AR10 reading) that makes the map easier if you can read it. Flipping the map vertically is similarly awful. It doesn't make the map any more difficult objectively, while in some cases it can make difficult parts of a map easier for players. Flipping the map vertically switches the clockwise/counterclockwise orientation of patterns, which is a horrible thing for a difficulty-increasing mod to do when players have varying strengths and weaknesses in each direction.ziin wrote:
How can you respect the mappers' choice when you use 100% dim? Stop being a hypocrite. Visual settings killed mappers' choice.Blue Dragon wrote:
why can't you just accept that mappers want you to play the map this way, you're the player, you shouldn't be able to edit it in any way
some may argue that in guitar hero/ddr/stepmania you can change the speed which notes come
but osu! is a different game and you should deal with it
respect the mappers' choice
also, don't ruin old maps, please.
I see no problem with this as a ranked mod. 0.3x score, plus/minus any gains from difficulty change and 10% PP, plus/minus any PP gains from the change in difficulty. Players who do not care about ranking (a small minority) will abuse this mod to enjoy the game and they will not affect any rankings other than having a ridiculously deflated rank. Players who do care about ranking (pretty much everyone else) will use this mod to practice/fix stupid problems with maps.
So why did I just post so many words bashing HR? Because this mod is worse. You want to give people the option to selectively modify those settings in order to make maps easier/harder? No thank you. HR kinda sorta works because it's standardized. This mod would not be. We don't want a ranked mod that encourages people to edit maps to CS4.7 to just barely ruin patterns that would be MUCH harder to play on CS4.8 (yes, that is actually possible). We don't want a ranked mod that encourages people to throw AR10 (or AR9 on higher AR maps for people who can't read above AR9) on any map that they're not good enough to read - yes, reading a map at different ARs is a skill that 100% must be a part of osu! simply because of what aim is (if you disagree with this, think for a while about it and you'll realize why). This mod is (almost) everything wrong with HR but without the standardization that makes HR okay. The ability to change just the OD and keep the map ranked would be nice in theory, but is almost completely incompatible with how the scoring system works. Allowing for any of the other settings to be changed without making the play unranked is just flat-out wrong...except maybe hp but that couldn't be allowed to increase score anyway and should just give the same multiplier as NF.
Oh, and your thing about 100% dim is a red herring. If it were the mapper's choice to have fully white hit circles on a fully white background, for example, there would be nothing wrong with fully dimming the background because when you have a map in which it is literally impossible to see any of the hitobjects, you are no longer playing the same game. Yep, that's a ridiculous and extreme example, but what if instead of a white background, it was a very light grey that you could kinda sorta see the hit circles on? A very slightly darker shade than that? Very slightly darker than that even? At what point can you see the objects well enough to still be playing a game about moving your cursor to circles and pressing a button? There is no answer to that. While it's probably nice to play a map at least once with background/storyboard/video/skin/hitsounds chosen by the mapper, they're not part of what makes the map what it is. They're things that detract from the game for artistic purposes. Map settings, however, do determine what the map is. If you want to fix stupid problems with maps, feel free to do that with unranked plays rather than trying to get an abomination of a ranked mod to cover your inadequacy.
So yeah, let's get this as an unranked mod please.
Fixing stupid problems with maps is exactly that: making the beatmap enjoyable to the player by removing the aspects of the game they don't like.
you may see 100% dim as a red herring, but there are plenty of maps designed to blend in with the background, and I certainly didn't intend it to be a red herring since I see no moral difference in dimming backgrounds/removing storyboards and changing difficulty settings. Backgrounds and difficulty settings add artificial difficulty to a map.
This can absolutely NOT go for unranked because it encourages players to play maps without it affecting their score at all. This is what spun out used to do and why peppy made it ranked. If you have a valid reason why having this as a ranked mod is such an abomination (who does it hurt? who does it help?) then I'll listen to you.
As far as AR/aim: I disagree and I still haven't realized why so please enlighten me. Last time I checked, osu's motto wasn't [b]aim[b] is just a click away.
you may see 100% dim as a red herring, but there are plenty of maps designed to blend in with the background, and I certainly didn't intend it to be a red herring since I see no moral difference in dimming backgrounds/removing storyboards and changing difficulty settings. Backgrounds and difficulty settings add artificial difficulty to a map.
This can absolutely NOT go for unranked because it encourages players to play maps without it affecting their score at all. This is what spun out used to do and why peppy made it ranked. If you have a valid reason why having this as a ranked mod is such an abomination (who does it hurt? who does it help?) then I'll listen to you.
As far as AR/aim: I disagree and I still haven't realized why so please enlighten me. Last time I checked, osu's motto wasn't [b]aim[b] is just a click away.
I already said why it's an abomination.ziin wrote:
Fixing stupid problems with maps is exactly that: making the beatmap enjoyable to the player by removing the aspects of the game they don't like.
you may see 100% dim as a red herring, but there are plenty of maps designed to blend in with the background, and I certainly didn't intend it to be a red herring since I see no moral difference in dimming backgrounds/removing storyboards and changing difficulty settings. Backgrounds and difficulty settings add artificial difficulty to a map.
This can absolutely NOT go for unranked because it encourages players to play maps without it affecting their score at all. This is what spun out used to do and why peppy made it ranked. If you have a valid reason why having this as a ranked mod is such an abomination (who does it hurt? who does it help?) then I'll listen to you.
As far as AR/aim: I disagree and I still haven't realized why so please enlighten me. Last time I checked, osu's motto wasn't [b]aim[b] is just a click away.
Relax is unranked but adds to your playcount (I just checked to make sure) and I assume this would do the same thing - and if it didn't, would that be a problem? To use your words, who does it hurt? This would actually encourage the opposite of what you're saying though - using this mod would be easier than making a diff with altered difficulty settings, so people would have more of their plays count towards their playcount rather than less.
"Artificial difficulty" is a fun little buzzword that people like to use to handwave away parts of a game they don't like, so let's break this down a bit using real words. Backgrounds/storyboards? That's artificial difficulty. A distracting background/storyboard is like giving someone special glasses to wear while playing that are actually just a really dirty pair of glasses with the wrong prescription. It has nothing to do with gameplay, it's just there to make the game more difficult. Difficulty settings? Not artificial difficulty with the exception of hp drain. HP drain doesn't make the game harder, it just decides (at times almost arbitrarily) that you're not doing well enough and causes you to fail. Mendes+HR, happy30 spinner maps nomod, etc. I fail to see how any other difficulty settings are artificial difficulty. CS is very obviously not artificial difficulty. OD is only artificial difficulty if you discount rhythm/timing as a part of osu! (which your final paragraph indicates is not the case). AR....this one's more complicated and ties in with what exactly aim is, so it deserves its own paragraph.
Let's get on the same page first though. Your "aim is just a click away" thing seems to indicate that you don't think osu! is about aim, but I hope we can agree that it's a legitimate component of osu!. In fact, it's pretty much the only thing that sets osu! apart from other rhythm games, so I'm going to assume that we can agree on this. Aim has a physical component and a mental component. The physical component is muscle memory. It's knowing by feel that going a certain distance across the screen requires moving your mouse or pen a certain amount or that reaching a certain spot on the screen requires moving your pen to a certain spot on your tablet. The mental component is everything else and it's exactly what we normally refer to as reading, but it's more than just "can you read this AR??". It's the obvious things like being able to figure out which note is next on low AR and being able to see notes in time on high AR, but there's also a component of reading that is 100% specific to aim - determining exactly where an object is relative to previous objects and/or relative to the rest of the playing field. THAT is the type of reading that makes people hate low AR. Having objects on the screen for longer and having more objects on screen makes it much harder to determine exactly where notes are, which makes it much harder to aim. However, this kind of difficulty is affected by....well, kind of a lot of things. It's affected by object density because the more objects there are on screen at once, the harder it is to focus on the specific one you want and to switch to the correct new object after. It's affected directly by AR in a way that has nothing to do with note density because holding an object in working memory longer before needing to use makes it more difficult to use previously-gathered information about the object to help your reading (this is why DT sometimes doesn't make aim as much harder as you'd expect despite having the same patterns and the same visual density of notes at 1.5x speed). However, it's also affected by things other than AR. High SV causes the same exact type of reading issues. Certain patterns (mostly ones containing wider angles with larger spacing) cause the exact same type of reading issues. The same type of reading that goes into being able to play a map at slightly lower AR is present everywhere and to discount it as a part of osu! is to reduce "aim" to "muscle memory". Sure, the purpose of increasing AR (in theory) is to bring the amount of this type of reading required for a map to approximately the same level as the amount of high AR reading required, but being allowed to do so as part of a mod that you want to get ranked as a way of removing "artificial difficulty" is utter nonsense. It's not artificial difficulty if it's half of the real difficulty of what sets the game apart from other games in the genre. Ultimately, most maps that get ranked have AR overtuned if the purpose of choosing an AR is to balance out the reading required across the two types. That's fine for individual maps if mappers want to do that, but that's exactly it - it's something the mapper chooses. If the mapper chooses to put a lower AR on a map, it's putting a form of real aim difficulty into the map that you would allow people to eliminate with this mod.
You're right that people should be able to remove aspects of the game that they don't like - but they shouldn't be able to do it and still have their plays be ranked. Calling it "fixing stupid problems with maps" is attempting to shift the blame from player skill to poor mapping decisions ("help help the circles are too small and I can't aim, this map has a stupid problem!!!"). If a map highlights your weaknesses and you don't like it, just don't play it.
/words
I would love to have this as an unranked mod, or one that halves the total score in a similar way to NF. It would be a nice thing to have to practice higher CS or higher/lower AR and being able to do so in multiplayer.
because AR and backgrounds affect the gameplay in the same way :^)ziin wrote:
How can you respect the mappers' choice when you use 100% dim? Stop being a hypocrite. Visual settings killed mappers' choice.Blue Dragon wrote:
why can't you just accept that mappers want you to play the map this way, you're the player, you shouldn't be able to edit it in any way
some may argue that in guitar hero/ddr/stepmania you can change the speed which notes come
but osu! is a different game and you should deal with it
respect the mappers' choice
also, don't ruin old maps, please.
I see no problem with this as a ranked mod. 0.3x score, plus/minus any gains from difficulty change and 10% PP, plus/minus any PP gains from the change in difficulty. Players who do not care about ranking (a small minority) will abuse this mod to enjoy the game and they will not affect any rankings other than having a ridiculously deflated rank. Players who do care about ranking (pretty much everyone else) will use this mod to practice/fix stupid problems with maps.
Calls me an hypocrite then proceeds to make one of the... least intelligent posts I've seen.
Let's fix all the stupid things in ranked maps by changing OD/CS/AR! it's not like AR reading has to be a skill at all! It's not like maps with high CS should be properly played, fuck that, let's just make everything easier for the player because this is what a game is about, right?
I guess I want an answer in one or two sentences. You write a story explaining why a ranked mod sucks but didn't explain why the ranked mod is OK (you just said it's OK because it's consistent). It's also a bit strange that you want a mod that is an abomination in your opinion added to the game.GhostFrog wrote:
I already said why it's an abomination.
I don't understand this point at all, sorry. Can you be more specific? For example: Ranked Difficulty Mod would ensure that players' accuracies, play counts, and score are accurately recorded. It discourages players from playing unranked which will generally cause skill level to increase without increasing recorded stats, resulting in inaccurate scores. It will not affect the majority of the top 100000 players rankings due to severe PP cuts. Unranked Difficulty Mod (which you support) would promote players to play without adding to their stats. It would essentially bring back spun out as an unranked mod, which was removed for a purpose. Personally I think relax should add to your accuracy, playcount, and total score.GhostFrog wrote:
Relax is unranked but adds to your playcount (I just checked to make sure) and I assume this would do the same thing - and if it didn't, would that be a problem? To use your words, who does it hurt? This would actually encourage the opposite of what you're saying though - using this mod would be easier than making a diff with altered difficulty settings, so people would have more of their plays count towards their playcount rather than less.
Real difficulty is Aim and Rhythm. Everything else is artificial difficulty in my opinion. I think we fundamentally disagree here so it's useless to continue this line of discussion.GhostFrog wrote:
"Artificial difficulty" is a fun little buzzword.
Yeah, that was a red herring. Aim to me is the ability to move your mouse to the position of the next note. It is strictly 2 dimensional and entirely physical. When your "mental" component affects the ability of a player to see the next note it is made more difficult by a non-physical difficulty, and thus is artificial.GhostFrog wrote:
Let's get on the same page first though. Your "aim is just a click away" thing seems to indicate that you don't think osu! is about aim, but I hope we can agree that it's a legitimate component of osu!.
Please don't use sarcasm (I'm assuming), especially when citing intelligence. That's not an intelligent way to debate.Blue Dragon wrote:
because AR and backgrounds affect the gameplay in the same way :^)
Calls me an hypocrite then proceeds to make one of the... least intelligent posts I've seen.
I can say in all seriousness that AR and backgrounds affect gameplay in the same way: they affect the ability of the player to determine where and when the next note is supposed to be hit. If you disagree with the underlined statement please explain why. This is why I think you are a hypocrite.
The tl;dr version of why this would be an abomination as a ranked mod is that changing map settings changes the map in ways that mean you're no longer playing the same map. Well, that's true in the case of CS and AR anyway. OD, as I said in my previous post, could in theory be something that gets modified fairly by a mod, but assigning a value to it with the current scoring system would be awkward. HP increase couldn't give you bonus points and still be fair, HP decrease would need to be treated as NF in order to be fair. The reason HR is okay (and I don't think it's well-designed at all, but I don't think it's bad that it exists) is because it's consistent. Either you play the map nomod or you play it flipped with circles at a set size, OD set to a specific number, AR set to a specific number, and HP set to a specific number. Having this as a ranked mod would be a mess of choosing just the right difficulty settings to take advantage of exactly where difficulty spikes either objectively or for that specific person. It would not be possible to make it fair because of how different it would make maps. I want this as an unranked mod because it would be fun and there's no reason not to let people play whatever they want if it's unranked.
There is no such thing as aim that is purely physical and that's the point you're missing about real vs artificial difficulty of AR. If you wanted to minimize the reading difficulty of aim, you would need to set literally every map to AR10 and I can pretty much guarantee you that would not be comfortable to play. The ideal AR for a map for a certain person will balance out the skills required, not minimize either one. If the reading component of aim is "artificial difficulty", then maps you find comfortable to play are comfortable because of "artificial difficulty". You're hiding behind that term and it doesn't mean what you want it to mean. The reading component of aim is necessarily a real part of aim.
There is no such thing as aim that is purely physical and that's the point you're missing about real vs artificial difficulty of AR. If you wanted to minimize the reading difficulty of aim, you would need to set literally every map to AR10 and I can pretty much guarantee you that would not be comfortable to play. The ideal AR for a map for a certain person will balance out the skills required, not minimize either one. If the reading component of aim is "artificial difficulty", then maps you find comfortable to play are comfortable because of "artificial difficulty". You're hiding behind that term and it doesn't mean what you want it to mean. The reading component of aim is necessarily a real part of aim.
Fushimi Rio
Let's take Banned Forever to annoy BD:GhostFrog wrote:
Having this as a ranked mod would be a mess of choosing just the right difficulty settings to take advantage of exactly where difficulty spikes either objectively or for that specific person
It's worth ~200 pp nomod, AR8. Today this map wouldn't be ranked due to the low AR.
If I FC this with a ranked AR9 mod on, I would get 20 pp and 10 million ranked score. Anyone with the ability to actually FC this doesn't deserve full credit, just like spun out, nofail, or easy. If a player is this good already, they would get 0 pp as 20 pp is nothing when you can FC 200 pp maps. On the 1% chance they do get pp, it will be a good thing because they're obviously under ranked.
So if this is unranked, it will not affect accuracy or ranked score or PP, but will affect total score and play count. If this is ranked, it will affect accuracy and ranked score (not top 50), total score, and playcount, but not pp. Without this mod, the play will not affect anything and you can't play the map in multiplayer easily. People don't do this much because the process of changing these values is tedious. I agree with you that if it affected PP and top 50 it would be an issue.
I would prefer to not have this mod in the game if it were unranked as it would turn into the old spunout.
>unranks AR7/8 map because it doesn't make sense
>calls AR a skill thus should not be toggle-able
good contradiction going on in this community.....
idk, either don't force mappers to use high ARs on hard maps OR make ARs toggle-able? I don't care which way you go(well i honestly prefer to have adjustable ARs but not too much)
Either let Extra diff map have AR7 or make AR adjustable. What is a decent AR? that mapper chooses it to be? maybe. But this mapping community obviously dislike AR9▽ on extra diff(even unqualifies it!) and at the same time you are calling AR part of reading skill.........
if AR is also a skill why is AR7 extra diff not rankable?
if AR is just matter of personnel taste why is it not toggle-able?
can anyone answer both at the same time?
>calls AR a skill thus should not be toggle-able
good contradiction going on in this community.....
idk, either don't force mappers to use high ARs on hard maps OR make ARs toggle-able? I don't care which way you go(well i honestly prefer to have adjustable ARs but not too much)
Either let Extra diff map have AR7 or make AR adjustable. What is a decent AR? that mapper chooses it to be? maybe. But this mapping community obviously dislike AR9▽ on extra diff(even unqualifies it!) and at the same time you are calling AR part of reading skill.........
if AR is also a skill why is AR7 extra diff not rankable?
if AR is just matter of personnel taste why is it not toggle-able?
can anyone answer both at the same time?
1) It skews the difficulty curve towards reading moreso than rhythm and accuracy. AR7 extra is not a balanced difficulty, just like easy mod is not a balanced mod.haha5957 wrote:
if AR is also a skill why is AR7 extra diff not rankable?
if AR is just matter of personnel taste why is it not toggle-able?
2) It's not just a matter of personal taste. The powers that be want to assign a score to AR which they can change based on how well the community reads said AR. Any outliers are rewarded.
You're talking about 2 entirely different groups of people. You will find almost no one who realizes that reading is an actual osu! skill and yet doesn't want ranked maps to be allowed a wider variety of approach rates.haha5957 wrote:
>unranks AR7/8 map because it doesn't make sense
>calls AR a skill thus should not be toggle-able
good contradiction going on in this community.....
Guess we should just unrank all aim-heavy maps since they skew the difficulty curve towards reading moreso than rhythm and accuracy.ziin wrote:
1) It skews the difficulty curve towards reading moreso than rhythm and accuracy. AR7 extra is not a balanced difficulty, just like easy mod is not a balanced mod.
A map with lower AR still requires rhythm and accuracy unless you're using EZ mod because it halves the OD. You just, y'know, need to be good enough to play the map in order for rhythm and accuracy to matter just like with any other form of difficulty. "Not a balanced difficulty" is such a bs excuse for anything. I assume you also never play any stream-heavy maps because they don't have "balanced difficulty" - your stream speed/stamina needs to be so much better than your aim needs to be in order to play them! But that's okay, right? You're just looking for any excuse to never have to play low AR, but I'll let you in on a little secret: you already don't have to and no one gives a fuck if you don't as long as you shut up about it. Now if you could be rational enough to stop insisting that you be given tools to get points for never playing anything below AR15, it would be greatly appreciated.
lol I'm one of those peopleGhostFrog wrote:
You're talking about 2 entirely different groups of people. You will find almost no one who realizes that reading is an actual osu! skill and yet doesn't want ranked maps to be allowed a wider variety of approach rates.
Only the qualified ones. Ranked ones have to stay, but the acceptable difficulty of AR is much lower than the acceptable difficuty of rhythm/aim. Rather than tell me why I'm wrong you could explain why ar7 extra isn't rankable. Remember that you don't rank any maps.GhostFrog wrote:
Guess we should just unrank all aim-heavy maps since they skew the difficulty curve towards reading moreso than rhythm and accuracy.
Don't put words into my mouth. We don't disagree that this mod should exist.GhostFrog wrote:
Now if you could be rational enough to stop insisting that you be given tools to get points for never playing anything below AR15, it would be greatly appreciated.
The more I think rationally about this the more I think it doesn't matter. Ranked score doesn't matter at all (and would be barely affected). PP matters, but wouldn't be affected 99% of the time. I have no idea how accuracy is affected, but it's probably weighted with PP, which wouldn't be affected 99% of the time.
Literally the only thing that matters is that unranked mods are bad, and that topic has been beaten to death with spun out.
Unranked mods can add to playcount now. Check your playcount, play a map with relax, check it again. I thought playcount was the issue with spun out back when it was unranked.ziin wrote:
GhostFrog wrote:
Literally the only thing that matters is that unranked mods are bad, and that topic has been beaten to death with spun out.
It was play count and accuracy. Since Accuracy is based on pp, then it only affects ranked score if ranked and would only be in the top 50 on maps people don't want to play because of the difficulty settings.
I don't care anymore as it doesn't matter. I just know that in the past unranked mods were requested and always denied.
I don't care anymore as it doesn't matter. I just know that in the past unranked mods were requested and always denied.
Lower AR on insane+ diff means hard to read. right? Bascially, AR is there to help you play if you see AR as just a tool to balance the difficulty out. like, extreme hard maps should have at least 9.0AR or even 9.5AR, and lower diffs should have low ARs. Correct?ziin wrote:
1) It skews the difficulty curve towards reading moreso than rhythm and accuracy. AR7 extra is not a balanced difficulty, just like easy mod is not a balanced mod.haha5957 wrote:
if AR is also a skill why is AR7 extra diff not rankable?
if AR is just matter of personnel taste why is it not toggle-able?
2) It's not just a matter of personal taste. The powers that be want to assign a score to AR which they can change based on how well the community reads said AR. Any outliers are rewarded.
Extremely hard AR8 maps looks little weird these days. Insane diffs should have high AR, easy diffs should have lower AR because AR is to balance difficulty out, pretty much to help people. (I mean, AR9 on easy map is hard and AR6 on insane map is even harder!)
If you agree on this you should definitely agree on making AR both adjustable and rankable. Remember that AR6 is extremely hard on insane diff but makes sense on easy/normal diffs. AR is just a balancing tool here.
Now however, AR8 on extra maps makes it harder to read, and AR10 is just little too hard for some people who are not used to it. Thus, ARs are skills. Even though myself can play 7.0☆+ maps pretty ok with AR 9, most of them are AR10(can't play at all with it). so I need to improve my skill so i can read AR10!
People like me asking for adjustable AR is just a noob who can't read AR10! I should stop crying and get used to high ARs.
If you agree on this you should definitely agree on making AR7 extra diff rankable. Don't even say reading high AR is skill but low AR isn't here.
What are you?
your 2 options are not mutually exclusive, so I think that most people in osu say neither. Also your logic that if I agree with A, I should agree with B is flawed.haha5957 wrote:
What are you?
I don't agree that lower AR on insane+ means hard to read in all cases. Most cases involve gobs of overlaps and strange patterns that only make sense on high AR, but I can play at least one approved AR3 insane map on hidden, and another AR0 Hard (unranked). They would be harder for me to play on higher ARs.
Usually when something is deemed "too hard" it is not rankable. AR7 Extra is usually too hard. You also have to take into consideration that when something has too low AR, it stops being fun for a lot of people. I think this mod would make the game more fun for more people, but the people who have something and have worked hard for it don't want it to go to waste (I suppose).
I thought I explained that well when I answered your questions, but I guess not.
ziin, what would you suggest as the score multiplier for this mod if it were ranked? You mentioned a flat .3x multiplier, but that seems pretty unfair when you can, for example, use this mod exactly the same as EZ which has a .5x multiplier (but of course setting it to .5x would be bad because you can easily choose settings that would make the map easier than EZ mod). Probably some sort of scaling depending on how much you change map settings? What do you think?
I say 0.3 because Ez is 0.5. Ideally easy should just let you choose difficulty settings with the defaults set as the current Ez mod.GhostFrog wrote:
ziin, what would you suggest as the score multiplier for this mod if it were ranked? You mentioned a flat .3x multiplier, but that seems pretty unfair when you can, for example, use this mod exactly the same as EZ which has a .5x multiplier (but of course setting it to .5x would be bad because you can easily choose settings that would make the map easier than EZ mod). Probably some sort of scaling depending on how much you change map settings? What do you think?
However, since ranking has significantly changed since this discussion first started, it matters less. You said that hr is okay only because it sets everything as a standard and I agree with that. The same goes for easy,so if this is a separate mod, Ez needs to grant more.
I like where you're headed with the scaling idea, but I really think it shouldn't affect top 50 scores. And that sounds like it would allow people to set everything to 10 except cs while making top 50. As I said before, I don't care if it's ranked or unranked anymore as neither will affect accuracy play count or pp, which are the important stats.
(Who cares about accuracy and play count wtf.)
Just make it unranked.
Just make it unranked.
Am I the only one who lost track of that arguement above lol
Just to clarify, if this was ranked then the player would get MORE pp for increasing od/cs/ar. Some of these things may in fact be making the map easier for the player. I don't know if you follow pp much or the ideology behind it, but it's intention is to be absolute (as in any set of circles will always give the same pp regardless of the mods applied). This mod would make abuse of the pp system relatively easy. Alternatively you want a new sub par mod that receives huge incursions for it's use for pretty much no reason other than "it's breaking ranking"; in which case it might as well be unranked, arguing that accuracy from having it be unranked matters is wrong because to make this mod fit in there would have to be pp reduction for it's use, in the case that the reduction is so adequte then the mod will never provide enough pp to significantly alter people's accuracy.ziin wrote:
It was play count and accuracy. Since Accuracy is based on pp, then it only affects ranked score if ranked and would only be in the top 50 on maps people don't want to play because of the difficulty settings.
I don't care anymore as it doesn't matter. I just know that in the past unranked mods were requested and always denied.
Making this ranked is AWFUL for pp, it DOESN'T effect accuracy in ANY case unless you create a mod where pp scales normally from map difficulty (sadly pp isn't perfect, there are map settings that can inflate pp to far beyond what it should be.
To argue that SBs and BGs effects the map as much as AR just makes me feel like you're joking. I can't even think of a reply to that.
Extremely hard AR8 maps looks little weird these days. Insane diffs should have high AR, easy diffs should have lower AR because AR is to balance difficulty out, pretty much to help people. (I mean, AR9 on easy map is hard and AR6 on insane map is even harder!)AR shouldn't be adjustable BECAUSE ranked maps are already fitted to the players. Can't play the meta maps? YOUR fault, it's META, it's not like it's a "weird skill". For the maps with challenging approach rates, now you need that reading skill that oh so want to ignore. Stop playing out of your comfort zone and use hr if you can't handle low AR, use easy mod if you can't handle high AR. Your hand should NOT be held, this isn't hello kitty online circle clicker. You make this out to be a black and white situation, as mentioned by ziin it's not so clear.
If you agree on this you should definitely agree on making AR both adjustable and rankable. Remember that AR6 is extremely hard on insane diff but makes sense on easy/normal diffs. AR is just a balancing tool here.
I'll be honest here, the fact that you want to have this mod appear on the ranking boards (potentially beating more impressive nomod scores) is the only reason I don't want it ranked. 0.3* guarantees nothing, this mod would only effect the hardest of maps in the game (which are already screwed up enough from halftime). I appreciate that you want to balance the mod but mods that make maps genuinely easier are VERY hard to balance with the way score in this game works.ziin wrote:
I say 0.3 because Ez is 0.5. Ideally easy should just let you choose difficulty settings with the defaults set as the current Ez mod.GhostFrog wrote:
ziin, what would you suggest as the score multiplier for this mod if it were ranked? You mentioned a flat .3x multiplier, but that seems pretty unfair when you can, for example, use this mod exactly the same as EZ which has a .5x multiplier (but of course setting it to .5x would be bad because you can easily choose settings that would make the map easier than EZ mod). Probably some sort of scaling depending on how much you change map settings? What do you think?
However, since ranking has significantly changed since this discussion first started, it matters less. You said that hr is okay only because it sets everything as a standard and I agree with that. The same goes for easy,so if this is a separate mod, Ez needs to grant more.
I like where you're headed with the scaling idea, but I really think it shouldn't affect top 50 scores. And that sounds like it would allow people to set everything to 10 except cs while making top 50. As I said before, I don't care if it's ranked or unranked anymore as neither will affect accuracy play count or pp, which are the important stats.
A lot of this is subjective so here are the objective parts: This can't be implemented as a ranked mod without either harming pp or by being so useless that it's essentially an unranked mod (that plagues the top50's of hard maps with little FC's). This CAN be implemented while taking into account playcount, regardless of ranked status. This CAN'T really effect accuracy regardless of ranked status.
I never argued that they affect the map to the same degree, just that they affect the map in the same way: they limit the players ability to know when and where the next note is. If they didn't then everyone would be playing with background on and skins that included 300 hits.jesus1412 wrote:
To argue that SBs and BGs effects the map as much as AR just makes me feel like you're joking. I can't even think of a reply to that.
Everything else I agree with more or less except for the use of the verb "to effect". Hooray English.
Just considering further, maybe ranked with a 0x multiplier could work, that way people can submit visible scores with it for mod specific leaderboards.ziin wrote:
I never argued that they affect the map to the same degree, just that they affect the map in the same way: they limit the players ability to know when and where the next note is. If they didn't then everyone would be playing with background on and skins that included 300 hits.jesus1412 wrote:
To argue that SBs and BGs effects the map as much as AR just makes me feel like you're joking. I can't even think of a reply to that.
Everything else I agree with more or less except for the use of the verb "to effect". Hooray English.
The open source proyect (opsu!) have that option on all the elements (Ar/Od/Cs/Hp).
If osu! have that option, can be a perfect way to practise a map if you have problems with something from a song.
Obiously, if you modify something, the play need to be unranked
If osu! have that option, can be a perfect way to practise a map if you have problems with something from a song.
Obiously, if you modify something, the play need to be unranked
Discussed already, read through earlier posts.Dephix wrote:
why not ranked like in Hexis?
actually it wasn't. It works in hexis because the game was designed that way. osu! only recently started allowing people to change/customize things. The community is fairly heavily entrenched in its methods and osu! is much more competitive than hexis.jesus1412 wrote:
Discussed already, read through earlier posts.Dephix wrote:
why not ranked like in Hexis?
Hexis is also accuracy based, whereas osu! is almost entirely combo based.
Free AR should absolutely be a thing
I don't know if AR is involved in PP calculation, but anyway:
If it isn't, why shouldn't we be able to play in whichever AR we like?
If it is, why is it? High AR isn't necessarily harder and low AR isn't necessarily easier
I don't know if AR is involved in PP calculation, but anyway:
If it isn't, why shouldn't we be able to play in whichever AR we like?
If it is, why is it? High AR isn't necessarily harder and low AR isn't necessarily easier
Some posts discussing this are on this page. I'll argue further but I'd rather not repeat myself more.agubelu wrote:
Free AR should absolutely be a thing
I don't know if AR is involved in PP calculation, but anyway:
If it isn't, why shouldn't we be able to play in whichever AR we like?
If it is, why is it? High AR isn't necessarily harder and low AR isn't necessarily easier
Adjustable has been requested before
HP means nothing in terms of difficulty/pp
CS only makes maps harder/easier (so it's fine if implemented)
OD can give HUGE amounts of pp if set to 10 due to INSANELY high part of accuracy
Oh, to those people saying it'll be UNranked, why can't you just use editor?
I'm fine with it being ranked, but I'm scared for the OD
HP means nothing in terms of difficulty/pp
CS only makes maps harder/easier (so it's fine if implemented)
OD can give HUGE amounts of pp if set to 10 due to INSANELY high part of accuracy
Oh, to those people saying it'll be UNranked, why can't you just use editor?
I'm fine with it being ranked, but I'm scared for the OD
Why can't they just make a mod ?baraatje123 wrote:
Oh, to those people saying it'll be UNranked, why can't you just use editor?
Using the editor for each maps is pretty annoying and you have to update them when you want the changes back.
Lowering HP allows passing unpassable maps on HR.baraatje123 wrote:
HP means nothing in terms of difficulty/pp
CS is the OD of aiming difficultybaraatje123 wrote:
CS only makes maps harder/easier (so it's fine if implemented)
Multiplayerbaraatje123 wrote:
Oh, to those people saying it'll be UNranked, why can't you just use editor?
OD is just a judge distance and has a miserable effect on HP. Ideally every map would be played on the highest OD you can pass with decent accuracy/survival.baraatje123 wrote:
I'm fine with it being ranked, but I'm scared for the OD
If this is ranked, it will be fair because it's added to everyone. The only thing it detrimentally affects are the mapmakers, who have already been detrimentally affected by the addition of display properties.
It would be interesting if you could easily storyboard a custom AR quickly. The only real isssue would be sliders showing up over approach/hitcircles.
It's just boring.Mayu Watanabe wrote:
Why can't they just make a mod ?baraatje123 wrote:
Oh, to those people saying it'll be UNranked, why can't you just use editor?
Using the editor for each maps is pretty annoying
