My opinion is still supreme. Unranked or go home and we all know how much peppy loves unranked mods.
Problem with this mod is that you can pick which stats to increase. So people that can aim well but have terrible accuracy can just raise CS but not OD, the accuracy players who have very small error can just raise OD up until it becomes a problem, etc. It doesn't affect how they play at all but still gives them bonus.vantheman wrote:
Since you repeated yourself last time I figured I'd play for a while and think about it rather than repeat myself back at you. Seemed like decent etiquette. I realized I can't really speak about high level play since I can't do it, so I'll infer you're right about what you said before, so to restart my argument,
I think us casual players need something to make [hard] maps more interesting besides hard rock(as it exists right now), since AR10 is way beyond me even when I can do AR9. I'll play the whole way down my sort-by-difficulty on nofail, but the maps I can actually clear bore me so much that I've dropped the idea of playing for rank at all, let alone make anything like "meaningful progress" on the pp system. If "ranked small circle play" is the thing that interests me, I shouldn't have to push the difficulty off a 200 foot cliff via an unrelated setting to get it.
Maybe there's a better solution to the dilemma I describe then the one proposed in this thread. If you could point me there, it'd be helpful.
If you feel that people who aren't after the top margin of ranks don't matter at all in this community, or rather, shouldn't take any concern with the player ranking system, then I've got no further argument with you about this particular issue, since we disagree at the root of it.
What? I don't understand why you said that. When I play a map with 40k scores on it, and a tiny difference throws me ahead several thousand ranks, the more variety there can be in the scores(such as through the incremental changes proposed) the better. Do you think scores below the top 50 don't matter? If so then the game shouldn't even give any rank at the end unless you get one of those. There's your 50 rungs on a ladder, but I play for the altitude on a mountain.-[Koinuri] wrote:
And casual players don't even need any score boosts; competitive players do.
I believe CS, AR and OD should be the only factors affecting score. Ideally to me, this feature request should be viewed in the angle of splitting the HR and EZ mod up into smaller segments. As HP provides no hindrance to players who are going for high accuracy FCs, however can make the map much easier than intended to be, HP should instead be an unranked change. OD, AR and CS make the map more difficult; OD making it much harder to have a high accuracy, AR reducing the amount of time provided to react to the circles and CS making it harder to aim the circles.-[Koinuri] wrote:
I meant casual players don't need boosts as much as competitive players. Bad wording >.>
Someone going from 1000th place to 900th on a map means significantly less than someone going from 50th to 49th, so it's natural to favor competitive players over casual players for score boosts.
The non-linear scaling would still break scoreboards. You have to realize that people going for score aren't looking for ways to make map difficult, but just ways to increase their score. HP, for example, means almost nothing when fcing with high accuracy (unless the spinner is too long), so people going for high score would favor HP 10 with this mod over HR despite the fact that the difficulty didn't increase from no mod in terms of fcing with high accuracy. Eventually the scoreboard becomes how much difficulty they can raise without making maps difficult, and people playing no mod will be forced to use this mod to do absolutely nothing in order to get more points to be on scoreboards. It'll be treated like HD, they just put it on because they give more points even though it doesn't necessarily make the map difficult.
yep. too many variables to consider unlike mania where it simply changes the amount of buttons you can pressjesus1412 wrote:
This can never work as a ranked mod.
Increasing HP drain without point increase is already in the game. Sudden Death, Perfect.-[Koinuri] wrote:
First, the HP getting unranked will upset many casual players because no matter how difficult the map is, raising its HP and passing it will give no boost at all. Then the value of OD also becomes a problem.
Accuracy only starts to matter when you can fc the map since the multiplier from combo gives way more points than getting high accuracy, so in casual player's point of view, assuming they're only passing and not comboing much, OD is more of a free point.I don't think I understand this sentence, the way you've phrased it. A casual player sees getting a higher multiplier for making the hit timing stricter as free? That doesn't make sense. Since that's what OD does, it makes FC harder, it makes passing harder, it makes any score at all harder.
Those are used mostly to make restart process easier for people that want to fc/ss the map, completely different purpose from HP increase which is to make the map more difficult.vantheman wrote:
Increasing HP drain without point increase is already in the game. Sudden Death, Perfect.
HP Drain is an extremely meaningless aspect of the game, imo, could we not talk about it? The concept of "passing" a song is just an arbitrary performance milestone, separate from either total accuracy or combo length, I think the change would be negligible if passing/failing songs was removed tomorrow.
A performance meter and a graph on the score screen showing your weak spots does make sense, but I feel that "dying" in a game is something a majority of games implement but whole genres of them don't need it to function.
vantheman wrote:
I don't think I understand this sentence, the way you've phrased it. A casual player sees getting a higher multiplier for making the hit timing stricter as free? That doesn't make sense. Since that's what OD does, it makes FC harder, it makes passing harder, it makes any score at all harder.
Aqo wrote:
You do realize that in other rhythm games you literally get nothing for non-perfect hits.
For instance the beatmania standard is
Glowing Great (called PGreat in short)
Great
Good
Bad
Poor (a miss)
You get 2 points for PGreat, which is OD11, 1 point for Great, which is OD10, and zero points for Good, which is OD8, anything below is also zero points.
Osu is lenient as hell in accuracy.
So what you're saying is that you want the ability to make maps easier with no penalty.Ash Marley wrote:
What I would really love is the ability to raise approach rate on any map, but not lower it (not talking about ones you create yourself).
Example:
- A beatmap at AR6:
- Ability to raise it to AR7, AR8, AR9, AR10
- NO ability to lower the AR.
- NO change in points by changing AR.
In my opinion, this would create too many variables in the ranked statistics and the scores could become skewed because of it. If you want to make the map easier or harder in a ranked fashion then the mods available already provide that.Bobbias wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, any changes to these outside the HR/EZ mods should be unranked.
You used to get bonus pp for AR greater than 10 or AR less than 8. The recent change made it so you need AR greater than 10.3 or less than 8 in order to get bonus pp.haha5957 wrote:
Just mentioning that now the pp system takes AR (although, needs to be 10.3 or higher) to grant extra pp but not for most of common ARs.
why don't we make AR customizable?Most rhythm games do allow you to choose your own value for their equivalent of approach rate, but I think it makes sense for osu! to be different. osu! is only 50% rhythm game. The aim component of the game is what makes it unique and the aim is influenced pretty heavily by AR in a way that doesn't factor into other rhythm games. Choosing an AR for a map is essentially placing a pivot point to balance out two different types of reading ability. On one side (lower AR), you have a type of reading that's more or less specific to aim. On the other, you have ability to identify notes fast/to react quickly (high AR). When rhythm games allow players to choose their AR-equivalent, players end up choosing the highest value they can read and the same would be true in osu! (for sufficiently difficult maps, anyway) because it makes playing the map easier. You say that you don't think that AR7.5 to 9.7 require 'actual "skill" ', but do you realize just how arbitrary those numbers are? To someone who can read AR10.3 fluently and never plays anything much lower, reading AR10 might not require actual skill, whereas anything below 9 will be horrifyingly difficult. Reading any map, regardless of AR or object density, requires some amount of skill, with the amount of skill varying depending on the AR and the map and with there being some balance between the two types of reading skill required. It can be said that AR adds "artificial difficulty" to a map and I think that might have been what you wanted to say. If so, that's a fair opinion, but I disagree with it. The ability to play a map at a certain AR is so closely tied into aim that reading different ARs is a real measure of difficulty in osu! imo. At the values we normally see for the maps we normally play (for example, between 7.5 and 9.7 for you), this is a little less obvious, though I think you'll really start to notice it around the lower end of that range.
TL;DR Changing any values to bend to your whim is ridiculous unless you receive 100% penalization for it.haha5957 wrote:
Bumping?
Just mentioning that now the pp system takes AR (although, needs to be 10.3 or higher) to grant extra pp but not for most of common ARs. Bonuses to pp for AR are for AR>10.33 and AR<8 (not inclusive).
CS and OD directly effects map's pp reward but AR doesn't effect PP in pretty much every case other than DTing 9AR maps, and for HP, adding a nofail mod will grant you 10% less pp (which isn't too much to be honest imo). CS affects pp the way it does because it directly increases the difficult, aiming is harder so keeping combo is harder, hence higher CS results in more pp. OD effects pp the way it does because it makes timing a perfect hit genuinely so much harder (and hence it rewards the player for managing to hit the notes correctly, rather than for just holding combo). The only reason AR doesn't effect pp as drastically as the others is because figuring out why lower/higher AR would be difficult on a map and determining the caliber of the reward deserved is very hard (if possible), not just because the difficulty of AR is so subjective but also because understanding why anything to do with reading is difficult is beyond what we currently know how to do.
So here's the question : while pp being the primary ranking system (and the pp system pretty much disregards every AR between 0~10.2), why don't we make AR customizable? We understand the effects of higher/lower cs a lot better than we understand the effects of AR numerically on difficulty, if we can have different approach rates on songs then we should also be able to have select other values. AR is the LEST UNDERSTOOD difficulty modifier, it's difficulty can be very subjective from person to person BUT there is a huge general consensus on certain ARs that are harder than others on given maps. If popular opinion says that something is hard then pp should say that that thing is hard.
Just give it a same amount of penalty when the AR goes below 10.3 because of this feature. "Just give the same penalty when you change the CS."
I honestly think ARs are now more like preferences. While I do have to agree that AR10 somehow requires "reading" ability, I don't think AR7.5~AR9.7 requires actual "skill". See here we again have another diverging opinion, AR10 in my opinion requires absolutely 0 reading ability to me while AR<=9 require godly understanding of the map. CLEARY we can see that high and low ARs require different skills, why should someone who has mastered all of the approach rates over multiple years of playing have their ability essentially made irrelevant just because some other people don't want to take the time to learn a variety of approach rates?
setting a ironed AR value for a "Extra" difficulty map makes it harder for players to fully enjoy the map. Especially between AR 8.5~9.7, it's more like preference (some like higher, some likes lower.) If the map has lower AR and you don't like it that's completely YOUR fault for not being capable, PLAY MORE just like everyone else did to get comfortable at low AR. The mapper made the map with a given approach rate in mind, just like they selected the CS and the drain and the placement of notes, it is part of the experience, changing the AR of the map can completely change the intensity of it.
For some old extremely hard maps with AR9, they feel too slow. However AR10 on some maps(talking about the material, big black, fd, etc) seems to be too much, while they still fit better than AR9, but I'm pretty sure that maps would had AR9.1~AR9.9. If the option was available at the moment. I can almost guarantee the majority of people can play those maps properly would want ar10 on them, it just makes reading them easier. If they prefer the lower AR? Great they have a skill that's beyond all of the other top players, let's not take their skill and tell them that because no one else wants to learn it we're going to make it an avoidable skill to learn.
This will not only help players to enjoy the game more by using AR of their preference, but it will also increase the value of old maps with AR7(which most of people do not like these days) and maps that didn't have decimal AR values as option(like i mentioned above). People may prefer having the ability to change AR yes, but they would also like the ability to slow down the map or shrink jumps. People want to change the AR because it feels easier to them, that's not okay. People should not be given the luxury of making the map easier at will with no penalties when other people struggle through on the more difficult settings and get no rewards.
although I called it "preference" there definitely are lots of maps that doesnt not have their best AR due to various reason(like AR7 being mainstream, AR 8 being mainstream, mapper choosing AR of his/her own preference, decimal ARs not being available). "Best AR" is just the AR that you personally find easiest, I guarantee there are maps you play now and you think "wow I'd like a lower AR on that" but in a few months you will think you were crazy. There is no "best" AR on a map, there is the set AR and it's an obstacle you have to tackle.
Because HR already gives me a choice and I like my small-ass circles.Blue Dragon wrote:
why can't you just accept that mappers want you to play the map this way
That's only true for changeable ARs, because it wouldn't be clear how to give it a score multiplier, and I don't support that.[-MrSergio-] wrote:
If this gets implemented mappers can start mapping with crazy values since the player will use his/her own values.
^ this kind of reasoning is really stupid. What osu!'s mappers do is to grant a good standard for beatmaps. With this feature they will lose some of their merits, which I find really unfair, beacuse mapping isn't easy (try it and you'll see)
I completely disagree with this, sorry
And how do you think OD would be increased in mania for example? Do you think peppy will magically create something that would let the game add LNs AND make them logical and playable?[Aibou] wrote:
If this is made, AR should not modify score at all.
HP can change your score, but it only by decreasing it. Increasing HP shouldn't increase your score.
CS should change your score if you're increasing CS, and decreasing it if you're lowering CS.
OD should increase your score if you're increasing OD, and decreasing it if you're lowering OD.
Since people often argue that higher AR is easier to read, we shouldn't reward that.
For HP, the map difficulty isn't really being increased, you're just punished more for mistakes, so it shouldn't increase score either.
CS can increase difficulty, so it should modify score.
OD can increase difficulty as well, so likewise, it should increase score.