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Stacking the Deck - (Game Over - Town Win)

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Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
It is the year 20XX, you are a group of survivors among the space ship NST-4510, however, you are aware that some criminals are on board and plan on taking control over the ship, it is up to you to find and eliminate those guys before they can become a threat to the ship

This game will be using the "Stacking the Deck" setup, there will be 3 scum, one of them is a Traitor and they don't know who it is, yet, Mafia may choose up to 3 of the following powers that they want, Town will be given the same ammount of powers as PRs that the mafia chooses and 2 additional PRs regardless.
  1. Change a goon into a bulletproof (Cannot be killed by night actions)
  2. Change a goon into a rolecop (Can scan a person for their role every night)
  3. Change a goon into a Ninja (If they submit the kill, they will appear as targetting no one to trackers and watchers)
  4. Change a goon into a JOAT (1-shot of all the above)
  5. Enable Daychat
  6. Recruit the Traitor into a Goon.
The traitor will appear as innocent to all alignment cop scans unless it's recruited, if the traitor is the only remaining mafia player then they'll take over the factional kill.

Players: * = Prod
fartownik
CalignoBot (Irreversible)
Jinxy
NoHitter
Tanzklaue
pieguy1372 (Hika)
DakeDekaane
Raging Bull
Haneii
rEdo
BRBP (Konei)
Rantai

Vote Count 5.0

Not Voting (3) - DakeDekaane, Tanzklaue, Rantai
Night 4 will end on July 21st 11:02 GMT-5
Alive
Tanzklaue
DakeDekaane
Rantai
Dead
NoHitter - Vanilla Towny lynched D1
rEdo - Vanilla Towny shot N1
BRBP - Town Mason & Cop shot N1
Haneii - Vanilla Townie Lynched D2
Raging Bull - Town Vigilante Asphyxiated N2
Jinxy - Mafia Traitor Lynched D3
CalignoBot - Town Vanilla Shot N3
fartownik - Mafia Role Cop - Shot in the head D4
pieguy1372 - Town Jailkeeper - Gone Missing N4
Mod killed
Hopefully no one

Events:
Day 1 Start
BRBP replaces Konei
pieguy1372 replaces Hika
Day 2 start
CalignoBot replaces Irreversible
Day 3 start
Day 4 start
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
General Rules:
- Do not Edit or Delete any of your posts.
- You may ask me to fix your forum tags if necessary.
- Do not quote anything from the PMs given to you by the mod.
- Do not communicate outside of this thread unless your role PM allows you to.
- Do not use any form of provable randomness, saying that you flipped a coin and acted on that is fine, proving that you flipped said coin is not.
- I am human, and I may make mistakes, if I make a mistake send me a PM or state it in bold.

Deadlines:
- Day times consist of 1 week, if by the time of the deadline no majority has been reached, the person with the most votes will be lynched, in the event of a tie, No-Lynch will happen.
- During LyLo if there's a tie in the votes at deadline, the player who reached the tying ammount of votes first will be lynched.
- Night times consist of 24 hours, during this event you may send your actions to me via PM, you may change your action afterwards and i will count the latest action sent to me, if no action is received by deadline it will result in No Action.
- Deadlines may be extended upon request of the players but they will only be extended at my discression based on activity and/or replacements.
- Replacements during the night will always extend the deadline regardless of who requested replacement.

Voting and Lynching:
- You may vote a player by stating in bold Vote: Player Name, an Unvote is not required to change your vote but it helps. When a player has reached 50% + 1 of the living players votes, a lynch will happen and the day will end.
- Acronyms and Shortened names are fine as long as I can clearly understand who is being voted.
- You may alternatively vote for a day to end without a lynch by stating Vote: No Lynch.
- No Lynch votes are banned during LyLo (they wont count)
- When a Lynch has ocurred before the end of the day, the game enters twilight zone, during this time all players including the lynchee may continue to post until I post the lynch scene and end the day, from then on the Lynchee is considered dead and cannot post.
- Dead players cannot post.

Activity
- Any player may request the mod to prod a player as long as they haven't posted for 24 hours or more.
- Prods must be responded to in the game thread.
- If a player is going to be absent for 24 hours or more they may state that they'll be on V/LA for said time, no more than 4 days V/LA will be accepted and you should consider replacing out if you're going to be gone that long.
- Night times dont count into prod time.
- Saturday and Sunday count as 24 hours for prods.
- Failing to pick up your prod within 24 hours will end in you getting replaced, you still have time to pick up your prod until a replacement is found.

If any rule is broken you will be modkilled and become a Neutral Survivor, hence automatically lose.
Modkills may or may not end the day early.
Pretending to break a rule will count as breaking the rule.
Questions > Modkills, if you have doubts whether you're about to break the rules feel free to PM me to make sure.
If you have any questions towards me State it in bold
I'll try to have a vote count at least once every 2 pages, unless i'm sleeping or something.
Last but not least, have fun <3

In the case i've missed anything, refer to these lovely rules by Lybydose: p/1062608
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Phase 1 Sample Role PMs

Mafia Goon
Hi and Welcome to Stacking the Deck Player
You are a Mafia Goon, along with your partner Reyalp

You are aware there's a traitor among the crowd, you may choose to recruit this player during Night 0, otherwise be wary as you may kill him by mistake.

During the night phases, except Night 0, one of you may choose a target to kill, if the action is succesful your target will die.

You may talk during the pre-game and all night phases in this quicktopic

You win when all Town aligned players are dead or nothing can prevent this from happening

Mafia Traitor
Hi and Welcome to Stacking the Deck Player
You are a Mafia Traitor but you don't know who your partners are.

If your partners are all dead you will take over the factional kill each night.

If a cop scans you and you aren't recruited they will get an Innocent result.

You win when all Town aligned players are dead or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Vanilla Townie
Welcome to Stacking the Deck Player
You are a Vanilla Townie

You got no other weapon than your vote, use it wisely.

You may or may not receive an additional power after Night 0 ends.

You win when all threats to town are eliminated.

Town Mason
Welcome to Stacking the Deck Player
You are a Town Mason along with your partner Reyalp

You and your partner are both confirmed town to each other.

During the night phases you and your partner may talk in this quicktopic

Despite being already Mason you may or may not receive an additional power after Night 0 ends.

You win when all threats to town are eliminated.
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik
Obviously up.
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,317 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
up o/
Jinxy
2,777 posts
Joined February 2009
Jinxy
Why not

in
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
finally /in

Edit: Also how many players will this be?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura

NoHitter wrote:

finally /in

Edit: Also how many players will this be?
12, it's been there in the title
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
I'm in
Hika
1,553 posts
Joined February 2010
Hika
/in
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
/in because it looks fun.
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik
@Mod: when Mafia picks a role out of the possible ones, will Town get the exact same one for themselves?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura

fartownik wrote:

@Mod: when Mafia picks a role out of the possible ones, will Town get the exact same one for themselves?
Not necessarily, in fact town is more likely to get roles like vig or alignment cop.
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik
Will you reveal the list of potential PRs for town then?
Kanye West
2,222 posts
Joined July 2011
Kanye West
Interesting setup, will be sitting out due to research etc
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura

fartownik wrote:

Will you reveal the list of potential PRs for town then?
Then it would be semi-closed and not closed setup :P If you all prefer it that way then yes I'll reveal all potential roles for Town.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
In
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik

Sakura wrote:

fartownik wrote:

Will you reveal the list of potential PRs for town then?
Then it would be semi-closed and not closed setup :P If you all prefer it that way then yes I'll reveal all potential roles for Town.
Oh well, nvm it then. If the setup's intended to be a closed one then let's stick to it.
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii
/in
rEdo
809 posts
Joined November 2008
rEdo
let's give it a try
Konei
2,959 posts
Joined March 2012
Konei
Trying
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,317 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
Vote: Sakura
Lincolm
258 posts
Joined November 2011
Lincolm
Sakura, give me dead QT :)
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura

Lincolm wrote:

Sakura, give me dead QT :)
Sure, when the game opens up and i create the QTs, why don't you participate tho :<
Lincolm
258 posts
Joined November 2011
Lincolm
Naw, I prefer have <2 games (one in MS) (even though I can play more than 2, I prefer focus). And with same persons, that's going to affect my mind / play.

And, stalking spectating is better way to improve myself.

And, maybe you need to put the wiki page in front page. :)

Edit : You edited the town roles. Going to be interesting. :)

Edit again : I think this Ninja is different from wiki page. More interesting.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Yes im going to use other town roles, tho that doesnt mean some in the wiki page may not appear, Ninja is the same as usual, if they submit the kill they cannot be tracked.
Jinxy
2,777 posts
Joined February 2009
Jinxy
I have a question, in the scenario where there are 2 maf, 1 unrecruited traitor and 3 towns with no vote-manipulating abilities (doublevoter, etc), is Mafia considered to have 50% of the votes?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Yes, because they are still part of the mafia faction. Even if they don't know each other, technically they are still controlling the majority of the votes.
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik
Argh, 12th pls.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
double in.
Rantai
1,000 posts
Joined July 2010
Rantai
/late in

Got tied up with beta =.=
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
All role PMS have been sent out.

You notice that suddenly there's a blackout on the ship, apparently someone has cut down the energy cables, for what purpose?

It is now Night 0 until June 23rd 10:30 GMT-5

You got until the end of Night 0 to confirm in thread.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
always online.

confirm
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
Confirm.
Jinxy
2,777 posts
Joined February 2009
Jinxy
Confirm
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
confirm
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik
Confirm.
Rantai
1,000 posts
Joined July 2010
Rantai
Hi.
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
Confirming~
rEdo
809 posts
Joined November 2008
rEdo
confirmin'
Konei
2,959 posts
Joined March 2012
Konei
confirming.
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii
Confirming
Hika
1,553 posts
Joined February 2010
Hika
Confirmed.
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,317 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
cnfirming
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Good everyone has confirmed, now just wait until Night 0 is over.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
You all hear a loud bang, and then the lights come back on, you all hurry to the location of the sound only to notice that the Captain of the ship has been shot in the head, everyone looks at each other suspiciously...

Sakura Ship Commander has been shot Night 0

Vote Count 1.0

Not Voting (12) - fartownik, Irreversible, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Hika, DakeDekaane, Raging Bull, Haneii, rEdo, Konei, Rantai

With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Night 0 ended shorter than expected because all decissions have been made.

It is now Day 1, A majority must be reached before June 28th 19:07 GMT-5 or No Lynch will hapen

If you didnt receive a new Role PM then you will stay the same as before.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
Vote fartownik

He wanted to be scum, perhaps he is this game!
Hika
1,553 posts
Joined February 2010
Hika
Raging Bully

WHAT IF YOU GOT SCUM THIS GAME
Hika
1,553 posts
Joined February 2010
Hika
wow didn't put the vote

Vote: RB plz
Hika
1,553 posts
Joined February 2010
Hika
i'm fuckign myself over here with my inability to type
Vote: RB

there :3
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
Vote: Hika
Scum nervousness is obvious.
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
OK guys everyone massclaim whether you're PR or not now.
We're doing this Two style. (If you're new and don't get it, then go read other games where Two participated.)

I am not a PR.
Rantai
1,000 posts
Joined July 2010
Rantai
I do believe that is going to hurt town more than scum. Unless you want to justify to me.

Scum can easily skew numbers, every town that admits to being PR is an easy pot shot.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
Isn't that also the reason why he usually dies N1?
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
12 players, 3 scum, 9 town
We have two mislynches possible;

Every town that admits to being a PR is just a pot shot -> True, but its a risk we should be willing to take. From the fact that a Ninja may be a choice of scum there, we can be sure that there is most likely a Tracker as well.

Scum that skews numbers will just be a target when they don't die after all PRs die. Incidentally scum can only INCREASE the number of "confirmed" PRs which will make us play more cautiously.
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
EBWOP:

tl;dr, We gain more information by massclaiming roles than scum does. The PR's dying is just a risk we have to take.

Assuming we got the maximum of five PRs, I think that there will be one Tracker among them. I definitely think that a Doctor is present as well.
N1, There's a 1/5 chance the Doctor is killed, but that also means that our four other PRs are alive and have role information.
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
EBWOP 2:

There may be also a Vigilante I think because of the Bulletproof choice of Mafia.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
Isn't it random? If scum chooses ninja, would town really get tracker?
rEdo
809 posts
Joined November 2008
rEdo
HI HIKA SING ME A SONG
Hika
1,553 posts
Joined February 2010
Hika
YOU GOT IT REDO

brb singing for redo before game gets serious
Jinxy
2,777 posts
Joined February 2009
Jinxy
So let's assume information is classified as Amount of PRs, Type of PRs, and Who the PRs are.

Without claiming,

Mafia knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Type of Mafia PRs
3. Who the Mafia PRs are
4. Amount of Town PRs

Town knows nothing.
___________________________________________________________________________

With claiming,

Mafia knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Type of Mafia PRs
3. Who the Mafia PRs are
4. Amount of Town PRs
5. Who the Town PRs are

Town knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Amount of Town PRs
3. Who the Town PRs are
___________________________________________________________________________

Well, Town gets 3x the information compared to Mafia and the thing they don't know (exact mafia PRs) doesn't affect them too much, so yeah, I think that's a good tradeoff, personally.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Vote Count 1.0

fartownik (1) - Raging Bull
Raging Bull (1) - Hika
Hika (1) - DakeDekaane

Not Voting (9) - fartownik, Irreversible, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Haneii, rEdo, Konei, Rantai

With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Please let me know if you see any mistakes.
Jinxy
2,777 posts
Joined February 2009
Jinxy
Oh, right, and I'm not a PR.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
I'm reluctant, but I suppose the way I'm typing gives it away.


I'm a PR.
Rantai
1,000 posts
Joined July 2010
Rantai
Eh whatever then;

I am a PR.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
well I had more luck than pizzicato in his first game \:D/

though I would argue that the information "who are the town PRs?" is much much more valuable for scum than the information town gets.

scum, wih their knowledge of how many PRs there are in the game, could easily screw us over if we don't have the maximum amount of PRs, they could easily fakeclaim PR and get away with it. all in all, scum has the tactical advantage here, especially if they didn't chose 3 additional advantages and town really only has 2-4 PRs.

of course, if scume plays dumb and we somehow reach more than 5 PRs, then it would help us. but how likely is that in all honesty?
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
EBWOP: going by my train of thought, we actually don't gain any sure information, while mafia does. so this really is a dumb idea.
Jinxy
2,777 posts
Joined February 2009
Jinxy

Tanzklaue wrote:

wscum, wih their knowledge of how many PRs there are in the game, could easily screw us over if we don't have the maximum amount of PRs, they could easily fakeclaim PR and get away with it.

NoHitter wrote:

Scum that skews numbers will just be a target when they don't die after all PRs die. Incidentally scum can only INCREASE the number of "confirmed" PRs which will make us play more cautiously.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
if all PRs are dead, it's probably to late for town to win anyway.

like I said, I don't think that this plan is healthy for anybody except scum.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
I have faith in town to get scum before all PRs die!
rEdo
809 posts
Joined November 2008
rEdo
keep in mind that the scum themselves could be suggesting this in order to receive information, and that whole "let's claim who has them PRs" thing could be just a bait for us to bite. I wouldn't share such information with everybody else while we've got threats in.
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik

NoHitter wrote:

OK guys everyone massclaim whether you're PR or not now.
We're doing this Two style. (If you're new and don't get it, then go read other games where Two participated.)
Would you mind sending an example of the game where Two used it? Not willing to dig in threads containing 80~ pages looking for a single post.

I'm not exactly sure about this, but some already posted their role so it can't be undone.

I'm a PR.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
Most game with Two, he asks for mass roleclaim immediately.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull

rEdo wrote:

keep in mind that the scum themselves could be suggesting this in order to receive information, and that whole "let's claim who has them PRs" thing could be just a bait for us to bite. I wouldn't share such information with everybody else while we've got threats in.

The thing is that, if we claim if we are PR or not, it gives us an idea of what scum might have chosen for their roles and tells us if they chose any extra power. What Jinxyjem convinced me. We can either play with information by revealing us. Or play with no information. Scum has advantage in both scenarios, but I think telling the information early on gives us a bit of a better chance against scum.
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik
Well, it will be most effective when everyone says the truth, which I doubt would happen. Mafia might lie to manipulate the game, but the more important is whether everyone from Town says the truth. If not then we will be playing a 'closed cards' game in the next days with unfull information. However, liars can be found in the next days, but it will be a bit of a tough task.
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii

Tanzklaue wrote:

don't think that this plan is healthy for anybody except scum.
- I agree!

I can't see how information like how many PR's are in town and who they might be would be helpful to town...or at least in this moment of time. How would this info help us make a decision for D1? However, for mafia, it's full of advantages. They can plan out their Nights more effectively by targeting Power Roles (and ,assuming the possibility of a role cop, get even more info on roles, putting town at even more of a disadvantage).

In comparison, town seems to get nothing! Like fartowink just mentioned, everyone might not tell the truth and who really believes mafia's going to tell truth? The information from this kind of mass claims doesn't give us info to better spot mafia, won't tell us how many mafia PR are in this game (unless everyone including mafia tells the truth), and doesn't help in making our decision to lynch for D1. I think we would have been better off with using the info from the events of the N1, for now.

So why mass claim if you have PR or not? Someone please show me how this helps town (Especially on D1 because I sure can't see it).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Raging Bull wrote:

I'm reluctant, but I suppose the way I'm typing gives it away.
How does the way you're typing give anything away? :roll:
Either you want to claim or not - and your reason "oh it's obvious from the way I'm typing that I have a PR so I should claim now" is suspicious.


NoHitter wrote:

Scum that skews numbers will just be a target when they don't die after all PRs die..
If all the PRs die who's going to target them? They'll be in the majority with the most power left D:
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Vote Count 1.02

fartownik (1) - Raging Bull
Raging Bull (1) - Hika
Hika (1) - DakeDekaane

Not Voting (9) - fartownik, Irreversible, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Haneii, rEdo, Konei, Rantai

With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Please let me know if you see any mistakes.

Moderator's Notes: I didnt count the Town Masons in the 2+X possible PRs that I rolled, I added them to spice things up, sorry if that confused you.
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
@ Haneii, Tanz and rEdo

JInxyjem already summarized the possible gains Town will have from massclaiming.

JInxyjem wrote:

So let's assume information is classified as Amount of PRs, Type of PRs, and Who the PRs are.

Without claiming,

Mafia knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Type of Mafia PRs
3. Who the Mafia PRs are
4. Amount of Town PRs

Town knows nothing.
___________________________________________________________________________

With claiming,

Mafia knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Type of Mafia PRs
3. Who the Mafia PRs are
4. Amount of Town PRs
5. Who the Town PRs are

Town knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Amount of Town PRs
3. Who the Town PRs are
___________________________________________________________________________

Well, Town gets 3x the information compared to Mafia and the thing they don't know (exact mafia PRs) doesn't affect them too much, so yeah, I think that's a good tradeoff, personally.
Mod: Can Masons get town PR abilities?
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik

Sakura wrote:

Moderator's Notes: I didnt count the Town Masons in the 2+X possible PRs that I rolled, I added them to spice things up, sorry if that confused you.
Emm, so it means we have 7 possible PRs for town (including Masons)?
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik

NoHitter wrote:

Mod: Can Masons get town PR abilities?
I'm no mod, but it states in the Mason's description.
Welcome to Stacking the Deck Player
You are a Town Mason along with your partner Reyalp

You and your partner are both confirmed town to each other.

During the night phases you and your partner may talk in this quicktopic

Despite being already Mason you may or may not receive an additional power after Night 0 ends.

You win when all threats to town are eliminated.
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,317 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
What is PR again? i can't fins anything about it.. -feels stupid- xD
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

NoHitter wrote:

@ Haneii, Tanz and rEdo

JInxyjem already summarized the possible gains Town will have from massclaiming.

JInxyjem wrote:

So let's assume information is classified as Amount of PRs, Type of PRs, and Who the PRs are.

Without claiming,

Mafia knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Type of Mafia PRs
3. Who the Mafia PRs are
4. Amount of Town PRs

Town knows nothing.
___________________________________________________________________________

With claiming,

Mafia knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Type of Mafia PRs
3. Who the Mafia PRs are
4. Amount of Town PRs
5. Who the Town PRs are

Town knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Amount of Town PRs
3. Who the Town PRs are
___________________________________________________________________________

Well, Town gets 3x the information compared to Mafia and the thing they don't know (exact mafia PRs) doesn't affect them too much, so yeah, I think that's a good tradeoff, personally.
Mod: Can Masons get town PR abilities?
and we already clarified that the advantages for scum are a lot bigger than the possible ones for town.

we really get no information out of this, while scum gets a perfect set up for WIFOM and other mindgames. also town doesn't need to know who the PRs are, the only thing we need to know is who is town and who isn't. on the other hand, scum really could and will use the information who the town PRs are.

the possible gains would only be in effect if nobody lies. scum will probably lie, so we can assume that none of the gains for town are actually existent.

this is so antitown, sadly a few already fell for it :/
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii

JInxyjem wrote:

With claiming

Town knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Amount of Town PRs
3. Who the Town PRs are

This is assuming everyone including mafia claims + tells the truth. If not, we won't have the right amount of mafia RPS, Town RPs, and who the Town RPs are! This case (where some town lie, mafia lie, or both) also hurts town more than mafia because the mafia already have quite a bit of info to go by to begin with. They can use what they already have to deduce fake claims, which will get easier for them to do as the game goes on (Town could do this too but with skewed info, a possible traitor, and the possibility of our tracker being killed off because of this role claim, the odds aren't in our favour :/).

Risk>Benefits
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii
Typos in my earlier post: I wrote RP's instead of PR. Sorry :P
Last edited by Haneii , edited 1 time in total.
Hika
1,553 posts
Joined February 2010
Hika
I'm not a PR

I still don't think it's okay for PR's to be revealing themselves.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Hika wrote:

I'm not a PR

I still don't think it's okay for PR's to be revealing themselves.
then you shouldn't go with the claim. all the people who haven't claimed until now shouldn't claim, so we can reduce the possible damage.
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii
Omg so sorry! I accidentally edited my post instead of making a new one D:

Sorry D:



what it was before




*cries*
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii

NoHitter wrote:

JInxyjem already summarized the possible gains Town will have from massclaiming.
Why do you think those points are town gains, NoHitter?
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
Not PR
NoHitter
JInxy
Hika

PR
Raging Bull
Rantai
fartownik

fartownik wrote:

NoHitter wrote:

Mod: Can Masons get town PR abilities?
I'm no mod, but it states in the Mason's description.
Welcome to Stacking the Deck Player
You are a Town Mason along with your partner Reyalp

You and your partner are both confirmed town to each other.

During the night phases you and your partner may talk in this quicktopic

Despite being already Mason you may or may not receive an additional power after Night 0 ends.

You win when all threats to town are eliminated.
Well that sucks. If Masons were also a separate entity, we could essentially have 2 more claimed roles. Actually I have an idea regarding that.

Tanz wrote:

and we already clarified that the advantages for scum are a lot bigger than the possible ones for town.

we really get no information out of this, while scum gets a perfect set up for WIFOM and other mindgames. also town doesn't need to know who the PRs are, the only thing we need to know is who is town and who isn't. on the other hand, scum really could and will use the information who the town PRs are.

the possible gains would only be in effect if nobody lies. scum will probably lie, so we can assume that none of the gains for town are actually existent.

this is so antitown, sadly a few already fell for it :/
Like I said before, scum can only lie by adding more "claimed PRs" to the list. If any case scum tries to hide behind being a PR, we let the PRs all massclaim their roles and lynch between any doubles or suspicious roles.

If scum doesn't choose to hide behind the PR list, we have essentially a list of confirmed townies and we can lynch off the people who claimed non-PR (i.e. the SAFE choice for scum.)

Haneii wrote:

Why do you think those points are town gains, NoHitter?
Specifically the third one: Who the town PRs are. See my explanation above.
Incidentally since the amount of town PRs is essentially proportional to the amount of scum powers, we can also determine how much power scum has.
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
EBWOP:
Here's the plan I thought of:
1) Massclaim PR or not PR (up to 5 PR)
2) Massclaim Masonship (up to 2 confirmed)
3) Massclaim PR roles themselves and lynch between doubles or suspicious roles (out of place PRs, or very "convenient" PRs)
4) Lynch the rest of the non-PRs

The way I see it chances are, the Masons won't all have the power roles town gains, so there is the fact that Mafia will have to choose between the PRs or confirmed Masons. If Mafia choose to kill off PRs instead of the Masons, we have confirmed town. If it's the other way around, they risk being targeted by the abilities and outed.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
nohitter, could you tell us how we should manage to find out if scum skewed the claim or not?

I mean, we can't know if scum skewed it. as long as we don't know this, mass claiming the actual PR is even worse, since then scum could pick out all the roles they want to have out of the way. basically, our PRs would've to check each other to look for possible scum. important night actions get wasted by this. and scum doesn't even have to kill the PRs at all. they could take out vanilla townies as long as the PRs try to find out if there is a liar amongst them.

in any possible scenario that I can see atm, scum just gets a huge advantage by doing this. one of the actual advantages of town is that the mafia doesn't know who out PRs are, so they have to find that out through deduction. with mass claiming all the PRs, mafia doesn't have to do that.

I really don't see any reason for town to do this, aside from hoping that everyone is honest, even scum, and that scenario is the least likely. having only that small of a chance of getting town an actual advantage, but giving scum basically something ranging from 1-2 guaranteed snipes to straight up a free win in reverse, this is just unjustifiable.

this is day one, of course, and not everyone posted their opinion. but at this point, you and jinxyjem are really suspicious.
Haneii
1,203 posts
Joined November 2009
Haneii

NoHitter wrote:

Like I said before, scum can only lie by adding more "claimed PRs" to the list.
That isn't the only lie they can make. They can say they don't have a power role when they do.


NoHitter wrote:

we can lynch off the people who claimed non-PR (i.e. the SAFE choice for scum.)
Why would that be a safe choice for scum? (I ask the question in the assumption you mean it's safe for scum to hide by claiming non-PR. I don't know if it's just me or the sentence was ambiguous but I first read that as you addressing scum directly and letting them know that lynching non-PR during the day is their safest choice)


Also, you claimed non-PR. If you're town why do you think it would be a good idea to start lynching non-PR?


NoHitter wrote:

Here's the plan I thought of:
1) Massclaim PR or not PR (up to 5 PR)
2) Massclaim Masonship (up to 2 confirmed)
3) Massclaim PR roles themselves and lynch between doubles or suspicious roles (out of place PRs, or very "convenient" PRs)
4) Lynch the rest of the non-PRs
Please explain how each plan will help? Also are you suggesting we do all 4 (it seems like that but 3 makes it sound like they're all separate options).


NoHitter wrote:

The way I see it chances are, the Masons won't all have the power roles town gains, so there is the fact that Mafia will have to choose between the PRs or confirmed Masons. If Mafia choose to kill off PRs instead of the Masons, we have confirmed town. If it's the other way around, they risk being targeted by the abilities and outed.
How do you know both Mason's won't have PRs?
@ Your second scenario: Yeah, mafia risk being targeted by the abilities and outed but it still might take us time to out them, and by that time they'll have enough info and power to wipe the rest of us out...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Tanzklaue wrote:

I really don't see any reason for town to do this, aside from hoping that everyone is honest, even scum, and that scenario is the least likely. having only that small of a chance of getting town an actual advantage, but giving scum basically something ranging from 1-2 guaranteed snipes to straight up a free win in reverse, this is just unjustifiable.
This is just it. Yes, town get's info but in return we give mafia an easy win? It's like the people pushing this plan don't want to acknowledge just how much mafia will gain from this decision...
NoHitter
osu! Alumni
3,785 posts
Joined June 2009
NoHitter
You guys are overexaggerating power roles vs the amount of information we get. Keeping power roles alive is a good thing, yes, but if we can manage to out mafia through traditional scumhunting all the same, it doesn't make any difference.

Tanz wrote:

nohitter, could you tell us how we should manage to find out if scum skewed the claim or not?
The thing is here is that I assume that scum does not know what PRs town has in the first place. Assuming scum claims PR: Even if you consider the ones I said were probable i.e. Tracker and Vig, it would be suspicious if we suddenly get doubles of every role, wouldn't it? Chances are one of those are scum.

If scum tries to lie and try claiming another role, there's also a good chance that they will pick either a double or have to risk with an "odd one out" or "very convenient" role. Those claims are also suspicious and warrants a vote.

Tanz wrote:

I really don't see any reason for town to do this, aside from hoping that everyone is honest, even scum, and that scenario is the least likely. having only that small of a chance of getting town an actual advantage, but giving scum basically something ranging from 1-2 guaranteed snipes to straight up a free win in reverse, this is just unjustifiable.
Even if you give Mafia free "snipes" at our PRs, if we lynch them in return, it will still be in our benefit.

Haneii wrote:

NoHitter wrote:

Like I said before, scum can only lie by adding more "claimed PRs" to the list.
That isn't the only lie they can make. They can say they don't have a power role when they do.
That's why we only lynch suspicious PRs. After we lynch them, we lynch the non-PRs based on how scummy they are.


Haneii wrote:

NoHitter wrote:

we can lynch off the people who claimed non-PR (i.e. the SAFE choice for scum.)
Why would that be a safe choice for scum? (I ask the question in the assumption you mean it's safe for scum to hide by claiming non-PR. I don't know if it's just me or the sentence was ambiguous but I first read that as you addressing scum directly and letting them know that lynching non-PR during the day is their safest choice)
Ahh excuse me for my ambiguous wording. I meant that the "safe choice" for scum would usually be claiming non-PR. From my experience as a player, whenever the massclaim comes, scum does either of two things: claim a PR and risk it, OR claim Vanilla Townie (aka non-PR) and hide amongst the majority of the VTs since there are more VTs. The less riskier and safer choice then would be hiding amongst the VTs.

Haneii wrote:

Also, you claimed non-PR. If you're town why do you think it would be a good idea to start lynching non-PR?
I explained it above. After you lynch of the suspicious PRs, the remaining mafia will have to be amongst the non-PRs.

Haneii wrote:

NoHitter wrote:

Here's the plan I thought of:
1) Massclaim PR or not PR (up to 5 PR)
2) Massclaim Masonship (up to 2 confirmed)
3) Massclaim PR roles themselves and lynch between doubles or suspicious roles (out of place PRs, or very "convenient" PRs)
4) Lynch the rest of the non-PRs
Please explain how each plan will help? Also are you suggesting we do all 4 (it seems like that but 3 makes it sound like they're all separate options).
1) Massclaim PR or not PR -> The moment scum claims PR, they can't chicken out of it. It was supposed to be some sort of trap until you had me explain it all.
2) Massclaim Masonship -> Allows for two confirmed townies. If we're lucky these two masons or at least one of them will NOT be power roles. That way mafia will have to choose between hitting power roles or confirmed townies. (Those who claim mason are HIGHLY likely to be town)
3) Massclaim PR roles.... -> I explained this earlier.
4) Lynch the rest of non-PRs -> That's because the remaining Mafia are hiding amongst the non-PRs.

Haneii wrote:

NoHitter wrote:

The way I see it chances are, the Masons won't all have the power roles town gains, so there is the fact that Mafia will have to choose between the PRs or confirmed Masons. If Mafia choose to kill off PRs instead of the Masons, we have confirmed town. If it's the other way around, they risk being targeted by the abilities and outed.
How do you know both Mason's won't have PRs?
I don't know if both Masons don't have PR's, but it's a risk I'm willing to take to win.

Haneii wrote:

@ Your second scenario: Yeah, mafia risk being targeted by the abilities and outed but it still might take us time to out them, and by that time they'll have enough info and power to wipe the rest of us out...
I disagree. Like I said earlier, you're betting too much on the importance of PRs as opposed to how the plan can out mafia. It doesn't matter if the PRs die if we win.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Vote Count 1.03

fartownik (1) - Raging Bull
Raging Bull (1) - Hika
Hika (1) - DakeDekaane

Not Voting (9) - fartownik, Irreversible, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Haneii, rEdo, Konei, Rantai

With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Please let me know if you see any mistakes
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
But in the worst case? what if we have a very few PR, like the 3 that have claimed? it could be easy for scum shoot any of them and basically we can't afford that risk, implying that there are basic and essential roles like Doc/Cop there. That's what I'd suggest not to do the third point in your plan NH, it's true we can get scum liars there, but at the same time, we'd be giving scum a huge advantage, they won't stop themselves if they can take down any dangerous PR for them, what do we get in return?

It's true that scum will be likely hidden as "non-PR", but still we could have town PRs protecting themselves from scum eyes by claiming they're not PR.

btw, sadly, but I'm not a PR.

And
Unvote
Keeping our RVs is not good when we get into the serious stuff.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

NoHitter wrote:

:?

Tanz wrote:

nohitter, could you tell us how we should manage to find out if scum skewed the claim or not?
The thing is here is that I assume that scum does not know what PRs town has in the first place. Assuming scum claims PR: Even if you consider the ones I said were probable i.e. Tracker and Vig, it would be suspicious if we suddenly get doubles of every role, wouldn't it? Chances are one of those are scum.

If scum tries to lie and try claiming another role, there's also a good chance that they will pick either a double or have to risk with an "odd one out" or "very convenient" role. Those claims are also suspicious and warrants a vote.
you misunderstood my question. I wanted to know how we would know if the claim is skewed without claiming PRs. because that's impossible, and claiming PRs just to find out if something is skewed is just dumb.

you suggest doing something super risky, on day one, without any reason to directly bit everything on one card. this is just ridiculous, your reasoning of they-shoot-us-to-death-but-in-the-optimum-case-we-can-lynch-them-faster-than-they-kill-us sounds like a really bad justification for this.

also, town needs PRs more than mafia does. mafia can win a game easily without PRs. town normally can't. so losing PRs for town is something major, while for mafia it isn't too much of a deal.

all in all, your reasoning just doesn't make sense, and there is nothing that justifies such risks this early in the game.
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,317 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
I have no PR. just wanted to throw that in since i didn't know it until now orz
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