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Stacking the Deck - (Game Over - Town Win)
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@Mod: when Mafia picks a role out of the possible ones, will Town get the exact same one for themselves?
Topic Starter
Not necessarily, in fact town is more likely to get roles like vig or alignment cop.fartownik wrote:
@Mod: when Mafia picks a role out of the possible ones, will Town get the exact same one for themselves?
Will you reveal the list of potential PRs for town then?
Interesting setup, will be sitting out due to research etc
Topic Starter
Then it would be semi-closed and not closed setupfartownik wrote:
Will you reveal the list of potential PRs for town then?
If you all prefer it that way then yes I'll reveal all potential roles for Town.In
Oh well, nvm it then. If the setup's intended to be a closed one then let's stick to it.Sakura wrote:
Then it would be semi-closed and not closed setupfartownik wrote:
Will you reveal the list of potential PRs for town then?
/in
Trying
Vote: Sakura
Topic Starter
Sure, when the game opens up and i create the QTs, why don't you participate tho :<Lincolm wrote:
Sakura, give me dead QT
Naw, I prefer have <2 games (one in MS) (even though I can play more than 2, I prefer focus). And with same persons, that's going to affect my mind / play.
And,stalking spectating is better way to improve myself.
And, maybe you need to put the wiki page in front page. 
Edit : You edited the town roles. Going to be interesting.
Edit again : I think this Ninja is different from wiki page. More interesting.
And,
Edit : You edited the town roles. Going to be interesting.
Edit again : I think this Ninja is different from wiki page. More interesting.
Topic Starter
Yes im going to use other town roles, tho that doesnt mean some in the wiki page may not appear, Ninja is the same as usual, if they submit the kill they cannot be tracked.
I have a question, in the scenario where there are 2 maf, 1 unrecruited traitor and 3 towns with no vote-manipulating abilities (doublevoter, etc), is Mafia considered to have 50% of the votes?
Topic Starter
Yes, because they are still part of the mafia faction. Even if they don't know each other, technically they are still controlling the majority of the votes.
Argh, 12th pls.
double in.
/late in
Got tied up with beta =.=
Got tied up with beta =.=
Topic Starter
All role PMS have been sent out.
You notice that suddenly there's a blackout on the ship, apparently someone has cut down the energy cables, for what purpose?
It is now Night 0 until June 23rd 10:30 GMT-5
You got until the end of Night 0 to confirm in thread.
You notice that suddenly there's a blackout on the ship, apparently someone has cut down the energy cables, for what purpose?
It is now Night 0 until June 23rd 10:30 GMT-5
You got until the end of Night 0 to confirm in thread.
always online.
confirm
confirm
Confirm.
Confirm
confirm
Confirm.
Hi.
Confirming~
confirming.
Confirming
Confirmed.
cnfirming
Topic Starter
Good everyone has confirmed, now just wait until Night 0 is over.
Topic Starter
You all hear a loud bang, and then the lights come back on, you all hurry to the location of the sound only to notice that the Captain of the ship has been shot in the head, everyone looks at each other suspiciously...
Sakura Ship Commander has been shot Night 0
Night 0 ended shorter than expected because all decissions have been made.
It is now Day 1, A majority must be reached before June 28th 19:07 GMT-5 or No Lynch will hapen
If you didnt receive a new Role PM then you will stay the same as before.
Sakura Ship Commander has been shot Night 0
Vote Count 1.0
Not Voting (12) - fartownik, Irreversible, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Hika, DakeDekaane, Raging Bull, Haneii, rEdo, Konei, Rantai
With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Not Voting (12) - fartownik, Irreversible, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Hika, DakeDekaane, Raging Bull, Haneii, rEdo, Konei, Rantai
With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Night 0 ended shorter than expected because all decissions have been made.
It is now Day 1, A majority must be reached before June 28th 19:07 GMT-5 or No Lynch will hapen
If you didnt receive a new Role PM then you will stay the same as before.
Vote fartownik
He wanted to be scum, perhaps he is this game!
He wanted to be scum, perhaps he is this game!
Raging Bully
WHAT IF YOU GOT SCUM THIS GAME
WHAT IF YOU GOT SCUM THIS GAME
wow didn't put the vote
Vote: RB plz
Vote: RB plz
i'm fuckign myself over here with my inability to type
Vote: RB
there :3
Vote: RB
there :3
Vote: Hika
Scum nervousness is obvious.
Scum nervousness is obvious.
I do believe that is going to hurt town more than scum. Unless you want to justify to me.
Scum can easily skew numbers, every town that admits to being PR is an easy pot shot.
Scum can easily skew numbers, every town that admits to being PR is an easy pot shot.
Isn't that also the reason why he usually dies N1?
12 players, 3 scum, 9 town
We have two mislynches possible;
Every town that admits to being a PR is just a pot shot -> True, but its a risk we should be willing to take. From the fact that a Ninja may be a choice of scum there, we can be sure that there is most likely a Tracker as well.
Scum that skews numbers will just be a target when they don't die after all PRs die. Incidentally scum can only INCREASE the number of "confirmed" PRs which will make us play more cautiously.
We have two mislynches possible;
Every town that admits to being a PR is just a pot shot -> True, but its a risk we should be willing to take. From the fact that a Ninja may be a choice of scum there, we can be sure that there is most likely a Tracker as well.
Scum that skews numbers will just be a target when they don't die after all PRs die. Incidentally scum can only INCREASE the number of "confirmed" PRs which will make us play more cautiously.
EBWOP:
tl;dr, We gain more information by massclaiming roles than scum does. The PR's dying is just a risk we have to take.
Assuming we got the maximum of five PRs, I think that there will be one Tracker among them. I definitely think that a Doctor is present as well.
N1, There's a 1/5 chance the Doctor is killed, but that also means that our four other PRs are alive and have role information.
tl;dr, We gain more information by massclaiming roles than scum does. The PR's dying is just a risk we have to take.
Assuming we got the maximum of five PRs, I think that there will be one Tracker among them. I definitely think that a Doctor is present as well.
N1, There's a 1/5 chance the Doctor is killed, but that also means that our four other PRs are alive and have role information.
EBWOP 2:
There may be also a Vigilante I think because of the Bulletproof choice of Mafia.
There may be also a Vigilante I think because of the Bulletproof choice of Mafia.
Isn't it random? If scum chooses ninja, would town really get tracker?
YOU GOT IT REDO
brb singing for redo before game gets serious
brb singing for redo before game gets serious
So let's assume information is classified as Amount of PRs, Type of PRs, and Who the PRs are.
Without claiming,
Mafia knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Type of Mafia PRs
3. Who the Mafia PRs are
4. Amount of Town PRs
Town knows nothing.
___________________________________________________________________________
With claiming,
Mafia knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Type of Mafia PRs
3. Who the Mafia PRs are
4. Amount of Town PRs
5. Who the Town PRs are
Town knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Amount of Town PRs
3. Who the Town PRs are
___________________________________________________________________________
Well, Town gets 3x the information compared to Mafia and the thing they don't know (exact mafia PRs) doesn't affect them too much, so yeah, I think that's a good tradeoff, personally.
Without claiming,
Mafia knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Type of Mafia PRs
3. Who the Mafia PRs are
4. Amount of Town PRs
Town knows nothing.
___________________________________________________________________________
With claiming,
Mafia knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Type of Mafia PRs
3. Who the Mafia PRs are
4. Amount of Town PRs
5. Who the Town PRs are
Town knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Amount of Town PRs
3. Who the Town PRs are
___________________________________________________________________________
Well, Town gets 3x the information compared to Mafia and the thing they don't know (exact mafia PRs) doesn't affect them too much, so yeah, I think that's a good tradeoff, personally.
Topic Starter
Vote Count 1.0
fartownik (1) - Raging Bull
Raging Bull (1) - Hika
Hika (1) - DakeDekaane
Not Voting (9) - fartownik, Irreversible, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Haneii, rEdo, Konei, Rantai
With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.
fartownik (1) - Raging Bull
Raging Bull (1) - Hika
Hika (1) - DakeDekaane
Not Voting (9) - fartownik, Irreversible, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Haneii, rEdo, Konei, Rantai
With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Please let me know if you see any mistakes.
Oh, right, and I'm not a PR.
I'm reluctant, but I suppose the way I'm typing gives it away.
I'm a PR.
I'm a PR.
Eh whatever then;
I am a PR.
I am a PR.
well I had more luck than pizzicato in his first game \:D/
though I would argue that the information "who are the town PRs?" is much much more valuable for scum than the information town gets.
scum, wih their knowledge of how many PRs there are in the game, could easily screw us over if we don't have the maximum amount of PRs, they could easily fakeclaim PR and get away with it. all in all, scum has the tactical advantage here, especially if they didn't chose 3 additional advantages and town really only has 2-4 PRs.
of course, if scume plays dumb and we somehow reach more than 5 PRs, then it would help us. but how likely is that in all honesty?
though I would argue that the information "who are the town PRs?" is much much more valuable for scum than the information town gets.
scum, wih their knowledge of how many PRs there are in the game, could easily screw us over if we don't have the maximum amount of PRs, they could easily fakeclaim PR and get away with it. all in all, scum has the tactical advantage here, especially if they didn't chose 3 additional advantages and town really only has 2-4 PRs.
of course, if scume plays dumb and we somehow reach more than 5 PRs, then it would help us. but how likely is that in all honesty?
EBWOP: going by my train of thought, we actually don't gain any sure information, while mafia does. so this really is a dumb idea.
Tanzklaue wrote:
wscum, wih their knowledge of how many PRs there are in the game, could easily screw us over if we don't have the maximum amount of PRs, they could easily fakeclaim PR and get away with it.
NoHitter wrote:
Scum that skews numbers will just be a target when they don't die after all PRs die. Incidentally scum can only INCREASE the number of "confirmed" PRs which will make us play more cautiously.
if all PRs are dead, it's probably to late for town to win anyway.
like I said, I don't think that this plan is healthy for anybody except scum.
like I said, I don't think that this plan is healthy for anybody except scum.
I have faith in town to get scum before all PRs die!
keep in mind that the scum themselves could be suggesting this in order to receive information, and that whole "let's claim who has them PRs" thing could be just a bait for us to bite. I wouldn't share such information with everybody else while we've got threats in.
Would you mind sending an example of the game where Two used it? Not willing to dig in threads containing 80~ pages looking for a single post.NoHitter wrote:
OK guys everyone massclaim whether you're PR or not now.
We're doing this Two style. (If you're new and don't get it, then go read other games where Two participated.)
I'm not exactly sure about this, but some already posted their role so it can't be undone.
I'm a PR.
Most game with Two, he asks for mass roleclaim immediately.
rEdo wrote:
keep in mind that the scum themselves could be suggesting this in order to receive information, and that whole "let's claim who has them PRs" thing could be just a bait for us to bite. I wouldn't share such information with everybody else while we've got threats in.
The thing is that, if we claim if we are PR or not, it gives us an idea of what scum might have chosen for their roles and tells us if they chose any extra power. What Jinxyjem convinced me. We can either play with information by revealing us. Or play with no information. Scum has advantage in both scenarios, but I think telling the information early on gives us a bit of a better chance against scum.
Well, it will be most effective when everyone says the truth, which I doubt would happen. Mafia might lie to manipulate the game, but the more important is whether everyone from Town says the truth. If not then we will be playing a 'closed cards' game in the next days with unfull information. However, liars can be found in the next days, but it will be a bit of a tough task.
- I agree!Tanzklaue wrote:
don't think that this plan is healthy for anybody except scum.
I can't see how information like how many PR's are in town and who they might be would be helpful to town...or at least in this moment of time. How would this info help us make a decision for D1? However, for mafia, it's full of advantages. They can plan out their Nights more effectively by targeting Power Roles (and ,assuming the possibility of a role cop, get even more info on roles, putting town at even more of a disadvantage).
In comparison, town seems to get nothing! Like fartowink just mentioned, everyone might not tell the truth and who really believes mafia's going to tell truth? The information from this kind of mass claims doesn't give us info to better spot mafia, won't tell us how many mafia PR are in this game (unless everyone including mafia tells the truth), and doesn't help in making our decision to lynch for D1. I think we would have been better off with using the info from the events of the N1, for now.
So why mass claim if you have PR or not? Someone please show me how this helps town (Especially on D1 because I sure can't see it).
How does the way you're typing give anything away?Raging Bull wrote:
I'm reluctant, but I suppose the way I'm typing gives it away.
Either you want to claim or not - and your reason "oh it's obvious from the way I'm typing that I have a PR so I should claim now" is suspicious.
If all the PRs die who's going to target them? They'll be in the majority with the most power left D:NoHitter wrote:
Scum that skews numbers will just be a target when they don't die after all PRs die..
Topic Starter
Vote Count 1.02
fartownik (1) - Raging Bull
Raging Bull (1) - Hika
Hika (1) - DakeDekaane
Not Voting (9) - fartownik, Irreversible, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Haneii, rEdo, Konei, Rantai
With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.
fartownik (1) - Raging Bull
Raging Bull (1) - Hika
Hika (1) - DakeDekaane
Not Voting (9) - fartownik, Irreversible, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Haneii, rEdo, Konei, Rantai
With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Please let me know if you see any mistakes.
Moderator's Notes: I didnt count the Town Masons in the 2+X possible PRs that I rolled, I added them to spice things up, sorry if that confused you.
@ Haneii, Tanz and rEdo
JInxyjem already summarized the possible gains Town will have from massclaiming.
JInxyjem already summarized the possible gains Town will have from massclaiming.
Mod: Can Masons get town PR abilities?JInxyjem wrote:
So let's assume information is classified as Amount of PRs, Type of PRs, and Who the PRs are.
Without claiming,
Mafia knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Type of Mafia PRs
3. Who the Mafia PRs are
4. Amount of Town PRs
Town knows nothing.
___________________________________________________________________________
With claiming,
Mafia knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Type of Mafia PRs
3. Who the Mafia PRs are
4. Amount of Town PRs
5. Who the Town PRs are
Town knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Amount of Town PRs
3. Who the Town PRs are
___________________________________________________________________________
Well, Town gets 3x the information compared to Mafia and the thing they don't know (exact mafia PRs) doesn't affect them too much, so yeah, I think that's a good tradeoff, personally.
Emm, so it means we have 7 possible PRs for town (including Masons)?Sakura wrote:
Moderator's Notes: I didnt count the Town Masons in the 2+X possible PRs that I rolled, I added them to spice things up, sorry if that confused you.
I'm no mod, but it states in the Mason's description.NoHitter wrote:
Mod: Can Masons get town PR abilities?
Welcome to Stacking the Deck Player
You are a Town Mason along with your partner Reyalp
You and your partner are both confirmed town to each other.
During the night phases you and your partner may talk in this quicktopic
Despite being already Mason you may or may not receive an additional power after Night 0 ends.
You win when all threats to town are eliminated.
What is PR again? i can't fins anything about it.. -feels stupid- xD
and we already clarified that the advantages for scum are a lot bigger than the possible ones for town.NoHitter wrote:
@ Haneii, Tanz and rEdo
JInxyjem already summarized the possible gains Town will have from massclaiming.Mod: Can Masons get town PR abilities?JInxyjem wrote:
So let's assume information is classified as Amount of PRs, Type of PRs, and Who the PRs are.
Without claiming,
Mafia knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Type of Mafia PRs
3. Who the Mafia PRs are
4. Amount of Town PRs
Town knows nothing.
___________________________________________________________________________
With claiming,
Mafia knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Type of Mafia PRs
3. Who the Mafia PRs are
4. Amount of Town PRs
5. Who the Town PRs are
Town knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Amount of Town PRs
3. Who the Town PRs are
___________________________________________________________________________
Well, Town gets 3x the information compared to Mafia and the thing they don't know (exact mafia PRs) doesn't affect them too much, so yeah, I think that's a good tradeoff, personally.
we really get no information out of this, while scum gets a perfect set up for WIFOM and other mindgames. also town doesn't need to know who the PRs are, the only thing we need to know is who is town and who isn't. on the other hand, scum really could and will use the information who the town PRs are.
the possible gains would only be in effect if nobody lies. scum will probably lie, so we can assume that none of the gains for town are actually existent.
this is so antitown, sadly a few already fell for it :/
JInxyjem wrote:
With claiming
Town knows
1. Amount of Mafia PRs
2. Amount of Town PRs
3. Who the Town PRs are
This is assuming everyone including mafia claims + tells the truth. If not, we won't have the right amount of mafia RPS, Town RPs, and who the Town RPs are! This case (where some town lie, mafia lie, or both) also hurts town more than mafia because the mafia already have quite a bit of info to go by to begin with. They can use what they already have to deduce fake claims, which will get easier for them to do as the game goes on (Town could do this too but with skewed info, a possible traitor, and the possibility of our tracker being killed off because of this role claim, the odds aren't in our favour :/).
Risk>Benefits
Typos in my earlier post: I wrote RP's instead of PR. Sorry
I'm not a PR
I still don't think it's okay for PR's to be revealing themselves.
I still don't think it's okay for PR's to be revealing themselves.
then you shouldn't go with the claim. all the people who haven't claimed until now shouldn't claim, so we can reduce the possible damage.Hika wrote:
I'm not a PR
I still don't think it's okay for PR's to be revealing themselves.
Omg so sorry! I accidentally edited my post instead of making a new one D:
Sorry D:
what it was before
*cries*
Sorry D:
what it was before
*cries*
Why do you think those points are town gains, NoHitter?NoHitter wrote:
JInxyjem already summarized the possible gains Town will have from massclaiming.
Not PR
NoHitter
JInxy
Hika
PR
Raging Bull
Rantai
fartownik
If scum doesn't choose to hide behind the PR list, we have essentially a list of confirmed townies and we can lynch off the people who claimed non-PR (i.e. the SAFE choice for scum.)
Incidentally since the amount of town PRs is essentially proportional to the amount of scum powers, we can also determine how much power scum has.
NoHitter
JInxy
Hika
PR
Raging Bull
Rantai
fartownik
Well that sucks. If Masons were also a separate entity, we could essentially have 2 more claimed roles. Actually I have an idea regarding that.fartownik wrote:
I'm no mod, but it states in the Mason's description.NoHitter wrote:
Mod: Can Masons get town PR abilities?Welcome to Stacking the Deck Player
You are a Town Mason along with your partner Reyalp
You and your partner are both confirmed town to each other.
During the night phases you and your partner may talk in this quicktopic
Despite being already Mason you may or may not receive an additional power after Night 0 ends.
You win when all threats to town are eliminated.
Like I said before, scum can only lie by adding more "claimed PRs" to the list. If any case scum tries to hide behind being a PR, we let the PRs all massclaim their roles and lynch between any doubles or suspicious roles.Tanz wrote:
and we already clarified that the advantages for scum are a lot bigger than the possible ones for town.
we really get no information out of this, while scum gets a perfect set up for WIFOM and other mindgames. also town doesn't need to know who the PRs are, the only thing we need to know is who is town and who isn't. on the other hand, scum really could and will use the information who the town PRs are.
the possible gains would only be in effect if nobody lies. scum will probably lie, so we can assume that none of the gains for town are actually existent.
this is so antitown, sadly a few already fell for it :/
If scum doesn't choose to hide behind the PR list, we have essentially a list of confirmed townies and we can lynch off the people who claimed non-PR (i.e. the SAFE choice for scum.)
Specifically the third one: Who the town PRs are. See my explanation above.Haneii wrote:
Why do you think those points are town gains, NoHitter?
Incidentally since the amount of town PRs is essentially proportional to the amount of scum powers, we can also determine how much power scum has.
EBWOP:
Here's the plan I thought of:
1) Massclaim PR or not PR (up to 5 PR)
2) Massclaim Masonship (up to 2 confirmed)
3) Massclaim PR roles themselves and lynch between doubles or suspicious roles (out of place PRs, or very "convenient" PRs)
4) Lynch the rest of the non-PRs
The way I see it chances are, the Masons won't all have the power roles town gains, so there is the fact that Mafia will have to choose between the PRs or confirmed Masons. If Mafia choose to kill off PRs instead of the Masons, we have confirmed town. If it's the other way around, they risk being targeted by the abilities and outed.
Here's the plan I thought of:
1) Massclaim PR or not PR (up to 5 PR)
2) Massclaim Masonship (up to 2 confirmed)
3) Massclaim PR roles themselves and lynch between doubles or suspicious roles (out of place PRs, or very "convenient" PRs)
4) Lynch the rest of the non-PRs
The way I see it chances are, the Masons won't all have the power roles town gains, so there is the fact that Mafia will have to choose between the PRs or confirmed Masons. If Mafia choose to kill off PRs instead of the Masons, we have confirmed town. If it's the other way around, they risk being targeted by the abilities and outed.
nohitter, could you tell us how we should manage to find out if scum skewed the claim or not?
I mean, we can't know if scum skewed it. as long as we don't know this, mass claiming the actual PR is even worse, since then scum could pick out all the roles they want to have out of the way. basically, our PRs would've to check each other to look for possible scum. important night actions get wasted by this. and scum doesn't even have to kill the PRs at all. they could take out vanilla townies as long as the PRs try to find out if there is a liar amongst them.
in any possible scenario that I can see atm, scum just gets a huge advantage by doing this. one of the actual advantages of town is that the mafia doesn't know who out PRs are, so they have to find that out through deduction. with mass claiming all the PRs, mafia doesn't have to do that.
I really don't see any reason for town to do this, aside from hoping that everyone is honest, even scum, and that scenario is the least likely. having only that small of a chance of getting town an actual advantage, but giving scum basically something ranging from 1-2 guaranteed snipes to straight up a free win in reverse, this is just unjustifiable.
this is day one, of course, and not everyone posted their opinion. but at this point, you and jinxyjem are really suspicious.
I mean, we can't know if scum skewed it. as long as we don't know this, mass claiming the actual PR is even worse, since then scum could pick out all the roles they want to have out of the way. basically, our PRs would've to check each other to look for possible scum. important night actions get wasted by this. and scum doesn't even have to kill the PRs at all. they could take out vanilla townies as long as the PRs try to find out if there is a liar amongst them.
in any possible scenario that I can see atm, scum just gets a huge advantage by doing this. one of the actual advantages of town is that the mafia doesn't know who out PRs are, so they have to find that out through deduction. with mass claiming all the PRs, mafia doesn't have to do that.
I really don't see any reason for town to do this, aside from hoping that everyone is honest, even scum, and that scenario is the least likely. having only that small of a chance of getting town an actual advantage, but giving scum basically something ranging from 1-2 guaranteed snipes to straight up a free win in reverse, this is just unjustifiable.
this is day one, of course, and not everyone posted their opinion. but at this point, you and jinxyjem are really suspicious.
That isn't the only lie they can make. They can say they don't have a power role when they do.NoHitter wrote:
Like I said before, scum can only lie by adding more "claimed PRs" to the list.
Why would that be a safe choice for scum? (I ask the question in the assumption you mean it's safe for scum to hide by claiming non-PR. I don't know if it's just me or the sentence was ambiguous but I first read that as you addressing scum directly and letting them know that lynching non-PR during the day is their safest choice)NoHitter wrote:
we can lynch off the people who claimed non-PR (i.e. the SAFE choice for scum.)
Also, you claimed non-PR. If you're town why do you think it would be a good idea to start lynching non-PR?
Please explain how each plan will help? Also are you suggesting we do all 4 (it seems like that but 3 makes it sound like they're all separate options).NoHitter wrote:
Here's the plan I thought of:
1) Massclaim PR or not PR (up to 5 PR)
2) Massclaim Masonship (up to 2 confirmed)
3) Massclaim PR roles themselves and lynch between doubles or suspicious roles (out of place PRs, or very "convenient" PRs)
4) Lynch the rest of the non-PRs
How do you know both Mason's won't have PRs?NoHitter wrote:
The way I see it chances are, the Masons won't all have the power roles town gains, so there is the fact that Mafia will have to choose between the PRs or confirmed Masons. If Mafia choose to kill off PRs instead of the Masons, we have confirmed town. If it's the other way around, they risk being targeted by the abilities and outed.
@ Your second scenario: Yeah, mafia risk being targeted by the abilities and outed but it still might take us time to out them, and by that time they'll have enough info and power to wipe the rest of us out...
This is just it. Yes, town get's info but in return we give mafia an easy win? It's like the people pushing this plan don't want to acknowledge just how much mafia will gain from this decision...Tanzklaue wrote:
I really don't see any reason for town to do this, aside from hoping that everyone is honest, even scum, and that scenario is the least likely. having only that small of a chance of getting town an actual advantage, but giving scum basically something ranging from 1-2 guaranteed snipes to straight up a free win in reverse, this is just unjustifiable.
You guys are overexaggerating power roles vs the amount of information we get. Keeping power roles alive is a good thing, yes, but if we can manage to out mafia through traditional scumhunting all the same, it doesn't make any difference.
If scum tries to lie and try claiming another role, there's also a good chance that they will pick either a double or have to risk with an "odd one out" or "very convenient" role. Those claims are also suspicious and warrants a vote.
2) Massclaim Masonship -> Allows for two confirmed townies. If we're lucky these two masons or at least one of them will NOT be power roles. That way mafia will have to choose between hitting power roles or confirmed townies. (Those who claim mason are HIGHLY likely to be town)
3) Massclaim PR roles.... -> I explained this earlier.
4) Lynch the rest of non-PRs -> That's because the remaining Mafia are hiding amongst the non-PRs.
The thing is here is that I assume that scum does not know what PRs town has in the first place. Assuming scum claims PR: Even if you consider the ones I said were probable i.e. Tracker and Vig, it would be suspicious if we suddenly get doubles of every role, wouldn't it? Chances are one of those are scum.Tanz wrote:
nohitter, could you tell us how we should manage to find out if scum skewed the claim or not?
If scum tries to lie and try claiming another role, there's also a good chance that they will pick either a double or have to risk with an "odd one out" or "very convenient" role. Those claims are also suspicious and warrants a vote.
Even if you give Mafia free "snipes" at our PRs, if we lynch them in return, it will still be in our benefit.Tanz wrote:
I really don't see any reason for town to do this, aside from hoping that everyone is honest, even scum, and that scenario is the least likely. having only that small of a chance of getting town an actual advantage, but giving scum basically something ranging from 1-2 guaranteed snipes to straight up a free win in reverse, this is just unjustifiable.
That's why we only lynch suspicious PRs. After we lynch them, we lynch the non-PRs based on how scummy they are.Haneii wrote:
That isn't the only lie they can make. They can say they don't have a power role when they do.NoHitter wrote:
Like I said before, scum can only lie by adding more "claimed PRs" to the list.
Ahh excuse me for my ambiguous wording. I meant that the "safe choice" for scum would usually be claiming non-PR. From my experience as a player, whenever the massclaim comes, scum does either of two things: claim a PR and risk it, OR claim Vanilla Townie (aka non-PR) and hide amongst the majority of the VTs since there are more VTs. The less riskier and safer choice then would be hiding amongst the VTs.Haneii wrote:
Why would that be a safe choice for scum? (I ask the question in the assumption you mean it's safe for scum to hide by claiming non-PR. I don't know if it's just me or the sentence was ambiguous but I first read that as you addressing scum directly and letting them know that lynching non-PR during the day is their safest choice)NoHitter wrote:
we can lynch off the people who claimed non-PR (i.e. the SAFE choice for scum.)
I explained it above. After you lynch of the suspicious PRs, the remaining mafia will have to be amongst the non-PRs.Haneii wrote:
Also, you claimed non-PR. If you're town why do you think it would be a good idea to start lynching non-PR?
1) Massclaim PR or not PR -> The moment scum claims PR, they can't chicken out of it. It was supposed to be some sort of trap until you had me explain it all.Haneii wrote:
Please explain how each plan will help? Also are you suggesting we do all 4 (it seems like that but 3 makes it sound like they're all separate options).NoHitter wrote:
Here's the plan I thought of:
1) Massclaim PR or not PR (up to 5 PR)
2) Massclaim Masonship (up to 2 confirmed)
3) Massclaim PR roles themselves and lynch between doubles or suspicious roles (out of place PRs, or very "convenient" PRs)
4) Lynch the rest of the non-PRs
2) Massclaim Masonship -> Allows for two confirmed townies. If we're lucky these two masons or at least one of them will NOT be power roles. That way mafia will have to choose between hitting power roles or confirmed townies. (Those who claim mason are HIGHLY likely to be town)
3) Massclaim PR roles.... -> I explained this earlier.
4) Lynch the rest of non-PRs -> That's because the remaining Mafia are hiding amongst the non-PRs.
I don't know if both Masons don't have PR's, but it's a risk I'm willing to take to win.Haneii wrote:
How do you know both Mason's won't have PRs?NoHitter wrote:
The way I see it chances are, the Masons won't all have the power roles town gains, so there is the fact that Mafia will have to choose between the PRs or confirmed Masons. If Mafia choose to kill off PRs instead of the Masons, we have confirmed town. If it's the other way around, they risk being targeted by the abilities and outed.
I disagree. Like I said earlier, you're betting too much on the importance of PRs as opposed to how the plan can out mafia. It doesn't matter if the PRs die if we win.Haneii wrote:
@ Your second scenario: Yeah, mafia risk being targeted by the abilities and outed but it still might take us time to out them, and by that time they'll have enough info and power to wipe the rest of us out...
Topic Starter
Vote Count 1.03
fartownik (1) - Raging Bull
Raging Bull (1) - Hika
Hika (1) - DakeDekaane
Not Voting (9) - fartownik, Irreversible, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Haneii, rEdo, Konei, Rantai
With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.
fartownik (1) - Raging Bull
Raging Bull (1) - Hika
Hika (1) - DakeDekaane
Not Voting (9) - fartownik, Irreversible, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Haneii, rEdo, Konei, Rantai
With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Please let me know if you see any mistakes
But in the worst case? what if we have a very few PR, like the 3 that have claimed? it could be easy for scum shoot any of them and basically we can't afford that risk, implying that there are basic and essential roles like Doc/Cop there. That's what I'd suggest not to do the third point in your plan NH, it's true we can get scum liars there, but at the same time, we'd be giving scum a huge advantage, they won't stop themselves if they can take down any dangerous PR for them, what do we get in return?
It's true that scum will be likely hidden as "non-PR", but still we could have town PRs protecting themselves from scum eyes by claiming they're not PR.
btw, sadly, but I'm not a PR.
And
Unvote
Keeping our RVs is not good when we get into the serious stuff.
It's true that scum will be likely hidden as "non-PR", but still we could have town PRs protecting themselves from scum eyes by claiming they're not PR.
btw, sadly, but I'm not a PR.
And
Unvote
Keeping our RVs is not good when we get into the serious stuff.
you misunderstood my question. I wanted to know how we would know if the claim is skewed without claiming PRs. because that's impossible, and claiming PRs just to find out if something is skewed is just dumb.NoHitter wrote:
The thing is here is that I assume that scum does not know what PRs town has in the first place. Assuming scum claims PR: Even if you consider the ones I said were probable i.e. Tracker and Vig, it would be suspicious if we suddenly get doubles of every role, wouldn't it? Chances are one of those are scum.Tanz wrote:
nohitter, could you tell us how we should manage to find out if scum skewed the claim or not?
If scum tries to lie and try claiming another role, there's also a good chance that they will pick either a double or have to risk with an "odd one out" or "very convenient" role. Those claims are also suspicious and warrants a vote.
you suggest doing something super risky, on day one, without any reason to directly bit everything on one card. this is just ridiculous, your reasoning of they-shoot-us-to-death-but-in-the-optimum-case-we-can-lynch-them-faster-than-they-kill-us sounds like a really bad justification for this.
also, town needs PRs more than mafia does. mafia can win a game easily without PRs. town normally can't. so losing PRs for town is something major, while for mafia it isn't too much of a deal.
all in all, your reasoning just doesn't make sense, and there is nothing that justifies such risks this early in the game.
I have no PR. just wanted to throw that in since i didn't know it until now orz
You can't know if the claim is skewed with "I am a PR or I am not a PR" alone unless more than five people claim PR, but THAT'S NOT THE POINT:Tanz wrote:
you misunderstood my question. I wanted to know how we would know if the claim is skewed without claiming PRs. because that's impossible, and claiming PRs just to find out if something is skewed is just dumb.
You SHOULD have the PRs specifically claim their role to find skewed claims to lynch.
A skewed claim = potential mafia to lynch. Essentially by rooting out the skewed claims, you lynch mafia.
You're forgetting that Town will also get something from this: CONFIRMED TOWNIES aka people who are sure to be not mafia.Tanz wrote:
also, town needs PRs more than mafia does. mafia can win a game easily without PRs. town normally can't. so losing PRs for town is something major, while for mafia it isn't too much of a deal.
Among the confirmed town and PRs, we have enough information such that chances are, we lynch the right people.
At the very least we have three PRs. In that case, the Masons should claim.Dake wrote:
But in the worst case? what if we have a very few PR, like the 3 that have claimed? it could be easy for scum shoot any of them and basically we can't afford that risk, implying that there are basic and essential roles like Doc/Cop there. That's what I'd suggest not to do the third point in your plan NH, it's true we can get scum liars there, but at the same time, we'd be giving scum a huge advantage, they won't stop themselves if they can take down any dangerous PR for them, what do we get in return?
Let's assume all mafia claimed non-PR, worst case scenario we have only 3 confirmed townies in the form of the PRs (if all PR = Mason); best scenario we have 5 confirmed townies; 3 PR, 2 mason.
Given our 9 - 3 setup and worst case scenario, the three confirmed town will allow us a 33 - 66 chance to lynch scum. (3 confirmed, 3 scum, 6 unknown) 1/3 is pretty good odds considering a cop will only have a 1/10 chance of finding mafia.
If we mislynch and assuming scum kills one of the confirmed, that will give us (2 confirmed, 3 scum, 5 unknown) or 3/8 chance of finding mafia.
IMO increasing the chance to lynch Mafia instead of relying on PRs is better.
This plan needs the cooperation of the town and will have them have to tell the truth.Dake wrote:
It's true that scum will be likely hidden as "non-PR", but still we could have town PRs protecting themselves from scum eyes by claiming they're not PR.
Why should town lie to get suspicious or what? I don't get that actually, ..NoHitter wrote:
This plan needs the cooperation of the town and will have them have to tell the truth.Dake wrote:
It's true that scum will be likely hidden as "non-PR", but still we could have town PRs protecting themselves from scum eyes by claiming they're not PR.
Will read/post at work.
I don't like to rely on probability too much ;~; but I agree that there's a pretty high number for D1, I hope we can discuss enough to reach an agreement with everybody.
To escape the mafia's eyes I think.Irreversible wrote:
Why should town lie to get suspicious or what? I don't get that actually, ..
God damn, I cannot read anyone in this discussion right here. Both of you guys bring up good point, but I do like what NoHitter says. We can narrow down the list from potential lynches each day depending on what mafia claimed and who is still alive. I think with how much people already claimed, it's perhaps best to just tell what you guys are. Perhaps you think I'm scummy for this, but more than half already risked our roles, best to have everyone do it so we can get a better list of people.
Add ISO too
Unvote
Add ISO too
Unvote
Well, NH basically answered everything, so I don't really have much to add, but there's one part I think NH didn't really answer, so:
Also, I agree with RB's post above. Stopping the massclaim halfway does not "reduce the possible damage" as said by Tanz. By stopping, we don't get the information we set out to get from the massclaim (Amount of Town and Scum PRs), while mafia has partially received information on who the Town PRs are, already.
For the second lie, it does not affect anything because we're using the amount of Town power roles to infer the amount of Scum power roles. (Scum PRs = Town - 2).Haneii wrote:
That isn't the only lie they can make. They can say they don't have a power role when they do.NoHitter wrote:
Like I said before, scum can only lie by adding more "claimed PRs" to the list.
Also, I agree with RB's post above. Stopping the massclaim halfway does not "reduce the possible damage" as said by Tanz. By stopping, we don't get the information we set out to get from the massclaim (Amount of Town and Scum PRs), while mafia has partially received information on who the Town PRs are, already.
Four days before the deadline.
I think everyone should claim now as we need to build up the specifics of the plan soon.
Not PR
NoHitter
JInxyjem
Hika
DakeDekaane
Irreversible
PR
Raging Bull
Rantai
fartownik
I think everyone should claim now as we need to build up the specifics of the plan soon.
Not PR
NoHitter
JInxyjem
Hika
DakeDekaane
Irreversible
PR
Raging Bull
Rantai
fartownik
I agree with RB and JInx here. If we stop claiming right now it will only cause confusion and more WIFOM in the next days, basically harming town even more. NH already explained a lot here and I will trust him for this one. I don't see a reason (a pro-town one) for the remaining people not to claim in this very moment.
fine.
I have no PR
I have no PR
I still think that the mass claim is super anti town, though. but by now the damage is already too big and not claiming would be like lynching yourself.
Konei, rEdo, Haneii. Your turn.
Topic Starter
Vote Count 1.04
Raging Bull (1) - Hika
Not Voting (11) - fartownik, Irreversible, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Haneii, rEdo, Konei, Rantai, DakeDekaane, Raging Bull
With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Raging Bull (1) - Hika
Not Voting (11) - fartownik, Irreversible, JInxyjem, NoHitter, Tanzklaue, Haneii, rEdo, Konei, Rantai, DakeDekaane, Raging Bull
With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Please let me know if you see any mistakes.
Moderator's Notes: The ISOs for this game have been added
You just described the game of mafia. He suggested we use the info from the claims towards traditional scumhunting and you call it ridiculous because it'll play out like a mafia game?Tanzklaue wrote:
this is just ridiculous, your reasoning of they-shoot-us-to-death-but-in-the-optimum-case-we-can-lynch-them-faster-than-they-kill-us sounds like a really bad justification for this.
*looks through thread to see which post might have given you this idea/made you feel threatened*Tanzklaue wrote:
I still think that the mass claim is super anti town, though. but by now the damage is already too big and not claiming would be like lynching yourself.
*comes up empty*
Okay.
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Thank you for answering all my questions, NoHitter
As for me: I am not a PR