WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT WHAT YOU CAN DO IN THE BEGINNINGAqo wrote:
I couldn't pass almost any [Normal]s when I started playing this game.thelewa wrote:
Middle School math isn't hard and everyone can do it. It's like [Normal] difficulties in osu!
I also don't think you were born knowing the multiplication table or how to solve algebra equations.
/threadPettanko wrote:
It's just ten percent luck
Twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure
Fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name
noPettanko wrote:
It's just ten percent luck
Twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure
Fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name
You're right. Still, this doesn't mean an untalented person cannot surpass a talented one with enough work. he/she just to work/practice even morethelewa wrote:
The point is that some people improve faster than others. That's the "talent" part. Are you really this stupid or are you just pretending?
I think you're the one not getting the point here.thelewa wrote:
WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT WHAT YOU CAN DO IN THE BEGINNING
THAT'S NOT THE POINT
The point is that some people improve faster than others. That's the "talent" part. Are you really this stupid or are you just pretending?
True, a talentless person can surpass a person with talent. But a talentless person CAN'T surpass a talented person who practices hard.Zarerion wrote:
You're right. Still, this doesn't mean an untalented person cannot surpass a talented one with enough work. he/she just to work/practice even morethelewa wrote:
The point is that some people improve faster than others. That's the "talent" part. Are you really this stupid or are you just pretending?
This statement is the main reason I support nurture 100% even tho I do think deep down that there's some % spread between nature and nurture.thelewa wrote:
But a talentless person CAN'T surpass a talented person who practices hard.
Aqo wrote:
If anybody claims to have tried as hard as somebody else and has achieved worse results, then he simply overestimates how hard he tried and underestimates how hard the other person tried.
Is the abiliity to play osu! determined by nature or nurture?If we talk about ability to play at high level, then nurture.
I told you exactly what I think. That "talent" is synonymous to patience and if you don't just fool yourself to think you tried as hard as somebody else and instead ACTUALLY try as hard as they did, you'll get to the same point as them, and even pass them if you try harder.thelewa wrote:
So you're basically saying that there is some sort of talent, but you deny it to give people false hope?
Don't forget that despite lower playcount, Cookiezi has more notes hits in his count, and they probably came from harder more spaced maps too, so it's not like Rizzo practiced harder and got less far; he actually did practice less overall, even if you ignore retries and unranked plays.GoldenWolf wrote:
@lolcubes : That's true, but from what I could see by speccing both of them, my example is accurate enough :p
Cookiezi has less total score than Rizzo (I mean, way less) and still has more total hits. How to explain that ? => Cookiezi retried more often at the beggining of a map than Rizzo. Rizzo played more the maps entierely, getting higher combo and so higher score, aka played moreAqo wrote:
Don't forget that despite lower playcount, Cookiezi has more notes hits in his count, and they probably came from harder more spaced maps too, so it's not like Rizzo practiced harder and got less far; he actually did practice less overall, even if you ignore retries and unranked plays.GoldenWolf wrote:
@lolcubes : That's true, but from what I could see by speccing both of them, my example is accurate enough :p
I'm surprised he played Shotgun Symphony+ so much then, most of the maps he can't FC he'll just get a really good score or even #1 on it and then just never play it again. This was the case with shotgun too, but it took waaaay more plays than most of the other scores he set did.thelewa wrote:
He likes maps that he can FC, and he has pretty much always played maps that he can FC.
jesus1412 wrote:
Cookiezi is nature. People with crazy as shit accuracy are nature. Everything else can be learnt.
Apparently some people just don't want to accept it.Sorun wrote:
Genetic advantages are a fact of life.
ur bst pro <З33зЗ3ззЗЗ3ЗэЭэЭbuny wrote:
Nature because I naturally suck
Read my mind.Pettanko wrote:
It's just ten percent luck
Twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure
Fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name
But eventually being able to fc insanes with DT or HR or even both of the mods combined becomes worthless due to the need of accuracy, I can fc most insanes with hr and sometimes dt, but getting low accuracy like 85% makes it so inferior compared to a nomod SS.hinaskye wrote:
Well it is true some people have a better rhythm sense than others, but that doesnt mean the ones that don't can't FC a insane map, it just means they have better accuracy. Out of most of my friends, i prob have a better rhythm sense which may have came from playing other music games beforehand. I totally suck at streams but i feel im getting the hang of getting 300s short streams and still working on it.
In a general sense, i really believe to be a more higher skilled player, its all about practise and how much time they spend on osu!, although not eveyone will start off from the same level and grow at the same rate. I can't say anything about playing HR or DT on insane maps, cause at present that seems totally impossible to me, but i think i will get there eventually.
^jesus1412 wrote:
Cookiezi is nature. People with crazy as shit accuracy are nature. Everything else can be learnt.
That's what I think.
I agree.Maneuver wrote:
Nurturing you nature skill, reaching nature skill limit.Then ? Transcending nature limit by tons of nurturing, just to get 0.01% more ? Don't know if there is someone has just only discovered new innert nature on very late stages, or altered or created new nature.
Same, also for the "put 2 people, make them train 2 months and see the results" there are too many factors influencing that in the game, like FPS in game (low fps = cursor lag) playing devices, mood, physical conditions ecc...Kanye West wrote:
20% nature, 80% nurture
what a stupid thing to say.Aqo wrote:
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
What a stupid thing to say. That doesn't even make sense. Everybody who trains at something gets better at it with no exceptions.Tanzklaue wrote:
"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"
What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?Aqo wrote:
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
What does any of this have to do with your ability to click on circlesSoly wrote:
What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?
That's ingenious.Soly wrote:
What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?Aqo wrote:
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
For everyone else it takes longer.Aeidxst wrote:
Ability is just a shortcut.
I think it's more to do with your mind than your physical strength.Aqo wrote:
Yes lewa I understand perfectly well what you mean.
However being talented in osu would mean what, being born with better... wrists? Better eyesight?
As long as your body is capable of moving a finger up and down and perceiving the difference between a circle and the background you have all the tools you need to train and get as good as cookiezi or better.
I put in quotas because it's stupid, I don't think that way myself. I just wanted to show you that your statement is on a similar level of stupidity. I think that I suck, and that it is clearly because of lack of practice and motivation, and everytime I play I have the feeling I should be much better at this than I am. but this game jsut doesn't do it for me anymore, so I don't think I will ever get my full potential released; whereever it might have been.Aqo wrote:
What a stupid thing to say. That doesn't even make sense. Everybody who trains at something gets better at it with no exceptions.Tanzklaue wrote:
"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"
one day an african will come and take Cookiezi place, one day.Soly wrote:
What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting?EDIT: I love you aqo, just something to think about
I'm still trying to find a real "African" who plays osu!Liutprando wrote:
one day an african will come and take Cookiezi place, one day.Soly wrote:
What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting?EDIT: I love you aqo, just something to think about
edit: also it would be SOOOOO great to hear what Cookiezi thinks about this , sadly his not talented for speaking english
Tanzklaue wrote:
and being talented in osu means:
-superior sense of rhythm
-easy adapting to spacing
-faster learning of speed
-mindsetting to never give up
Wouldn't you say that a player's mindset, motivation and mental approach to the game can only be nurtured?thelewa wrote:
I think it's more to do with your mind than your physical strength.
Some people can naturally comprehend more things at a time than others, and do it faster. This can be trained to a certain degree, but there's no making a genius out of a person who wasn't born one. Trust me, I know this better than anyone else since my parents tried to make me one.LaVolpe024 wrote:
Wouldn't you say that a player's mindset, motivation and mental approach to the game can only be nurtured?thelewa wrote:
I think it's more to do with your mind than your physical strength.
I dun understand this, by knowing you are not as talented as others, you know/acknowledge you have to train more harder than the talented person to be at the same level or surpass him.Tanzklaue wrote:
what a stupid thing to say.Aqo wrote:
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"
How to define this? Playing Easy/Normals for too long could get you too used to playing these difficulties. Playing Insanes off-the-bat, or difficulties that are too hard for you on a regular basis could also be counter-productive.loseri wrote:
Also wrong nurturing can bring down the skill cap.
I forgot to mention this.
yes Yes YES, I absolutely agree, this thread was lacking a post like this one!enik wrote:
8 pages wow.. I'm kinda late but still want to share my opinion.
There're kinda three aspects which makes people "different" in any kind of competition (let's say things like settings and stuff are already in ideal point):
Intelligence capacities
Determines the effectiveness of your learning process. Can be practiced by learning new things and doing math.
Physical capacities
Determines your physical limits. Obviously, can be practiced. do u even lift?
Mental capacities
Determines your goals and the amount of effort you put to achieve them. Can be changed by reprioritizing.
Why are some people better than others from the beginning?
-because the actual beginning begins not when you made an Osu! account or started lifting everyday but from your birth. You gain any kind of experience and having practice the whole life in many "not direct" ways. You train reaction playing ping-pong, sense of rhytm - playing musical instruments, fingers agility and speed - pressing keys in another games, coordination - juggling balls etc. you can even train your patience just being patient. Learning new things requires different skills some of which you already could own at pretty high level from learning another things. African people are physically stronger others because they have different living conditions that forces them to be strong, means they've just had more physical practice than others.
That's why everyone has a different starting point and learning speed. And that means if the skill cap is exist it's the same for everyone.
So the person you call talented simpy had more practice in any of those 3 aspects mentioned above.
Yes, animals and even humans doing same things for ages can evolute to do it even better (like again african people) but is veeery unnoticeable because it takes like thousands of years and evolving group must be fully isolated from other people.
tl;dr: Nurture, totally agree with Aqo.
sry for poor engrish ;_;
I disagree. Sometimes I play a map 100 times in a row for whatever reason and I really dont mind retrying and replaying and in the end I only noticed positive things from it (that I could notice, because noticing when you get better is really damn hard after a certain point). I guess it comes down to the mindset and I am a very patient person.Hika wrote:
It's more like also considering playing the same map over & over again such as trying to FC something over a long period of time. Repetitive playing also counts as wrong nuturing because intended action from a normal player would to be moving on & playing a different map, only to come back to the map that has troubled them before.
Yeah, I know what you mean. Some people are capable of that, which I forgot to point out in my earlier post. I'm one of those people where playing a map over & over again isn't helpful & it permanently damages my ability to play it ever again.lolcubes wrote:
I disagree. Sometimes I play a map 100 times in a row for whatever reason and I really dont mind retrying and replaying and in the end I only noticed positive things from it (that I could notice, because noticing when you get better is really damn hard after a certain point). I guess it comes down to the mindset and I am a very patient person.Hika wrote:
It's more like also considering playing the same map over & over again such as trying to FC something over a long period of time. Repetitive playing also counts as wrong nuturing because intended action from a normal player would to be moving on & playing a different map, only to come back to the map that has troubled them before.
also agreeSteRRuM wrote:
yes Yes YES, I absolutely agree, this thread was lacking a post like this one!enik wrote:
8 pages wow.. I'm kinda late but still want to share my opinion.
There're kinda three aspects which makes people "different" in any kind of competition (let's say things like settings and stuff are already in ideal point):
Intelligence capacities
Determines the effectiveness of your learning process. Can be practiced by learning new things and doing math.
Physical capacities
Determines your physical limits. Obviously, can be practiced. do u even lift?
Mental capacities
Determines your goals and the amount of effort you put to achieve them. Can be changed by reprioritizing.
Why are some people better than others from the beginning?
-because the actual beginning begins not when you made an Osu! account or started lifting everyday but from your birth. You gain any kind of experience and having practice the whole life in many "not direct" ways. You train reaction playing ping-pong, sense of rhytm - playing musical instruments, fingers agility and speed - pressing keys in another games, coordination - juggling balls etc. you can even train your patience just being patient. Learning new things requires different skills some of which you already could own at pretty high level from learning another things. African people are physically stronger others because they have different living conditions that forces them to be strong, means they've just had more physical practice than others.
That's why everyone has a different starting point and learning speed. And that means if the skill cap is exist it's the same for everyone.
So the person you call talented simpy had more practice in any of those 3 aspects mentioned above.
Yes, animals and even humans doing same things for ages can evolute to do it even better (like again african people) but is veeery unnoticeable because it takes like thousands of years and evolving group must be fully isolated from other people.
tl;dr: Nurture, totally agree with Aqo.
sry for poor engrish ;_;
i disliek peple jacking my avatar all the time lolloseri wrote:
ew huge-ass name pls
ew bany wai
That's not even an argument. It's a simplified point of view that fits your opinion, which you're trying to defend. It's just naive to think that everyone has the same skill cap from the start. Nobody disagrees that nurturing helps to improve thou.Aqo wrote:
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
It's naive to think there's a skill cap at all, because nobody has hit a skill cap yet.Goodbye Shin wrote:
That's not even an argument. It's a simplified point of view that fits your opinion, which you're trying to defend. It's just naive to think that everyone has the same skill cap from the start. Nobody disagrees that nurturing helps to improve thou.Aqo wrote:
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
There is a skill cap, if there wouldn't be a skill cap then people could theoretically train to react faster than 10ms, and move their fingers fast enough to be able to play 1000bpm 1/4 streams flawlessly, but that's absurd, because you have PHYSICAL and MENTAL limitations, those limitations are not even for all of us.Aqo wrote:
It's naive to think there's a skill cap at all, because nobody has hit a skill cap yet.
Nobody.
I don't think that makes much sense, no one has ever come even light years close to what you can define "physics and mental limitations".druidxd wrote:
There is a skill cap, if there wouldn't be a skill cap then people could theoretically train to react faster than 10ms, and move their fingers fast enough to be able to play 1000bpm 1/4 streams flawlessly, but that's absurd, because you have PHYSICAL and MENTAL limitations, those limitations are not even for all of us.Aqo wrote:
It's naive to think there's a skill cap at all, because nobody has hit a skill cap yet.
Nobody.
That's the point, you can easily make something sound absurd, but if you think about it, if skill cap is non-existant, as Aqo said, just because nobody has hit it yet, then you can think of absurd things, such as streaming 1000 bpm, or reacting almost instantly, but as we know, that's just impossible, physically impossible, it's a limitation that our human body gives us.Jordan wrote:
I don't think that makes much sense, no one has ever come even light years close to what you can define "physics and mental limitations".
The idea of streaming over 240bpm was absurd and beyond impossible at 2009. If you told somebody then that people can learn to do 270bpm streams he'll be like "pfft that's impossible".druidxd wrote:
then you can think of absurd things, such as streaming 1000 bpm, or reacting almost instantly, but as we know, that's just impossible, physically impossible, it's a limitation that our human body gives us.
Aqo wrote:
The idea of streaming over 240bpm was absurd and beyond impossible at 2009. If you told somebody then that people can learn to do 270bpm streams he'll be like "pfft that's impossible".druidxd wrote:
then you can think of absurd things, such as streaming 1000 bpm, or reacting almost instantly, but as we know, that's just impossible, physically impossible, it's a limitation that our human body gives us.
Did the laws of physics suddenly change over the years or something.
300bpm streams don't even seem impossible to me right now D:GoldenWolf wrote:
300bpm streams seems impossible to me now, does it mean it will be the standard in 2 years ? C'mon aqo.
Humans are able to innovate in many different ways. 4000 bpm is a bit out there, but I imagine with 4 fingers and a little programming it would be easy to do. Someone would probably call that cheating though.Jordan wrote:
There is a skill cap, if there wouldn't be a skill cap then people could theoretically train to react faster than 10ms, and move their fingers fast enough to be able to play 1000bpm 1/4 streams flawlessly, but that's absurd, because you have PHYSICAL and MENTAL limitations, those limitations are not even for all of us.
I'm not looking for excuses, and i'm even probably soon retireing from osu because I'm going to start playing competitive dota 2, and other games, but saying that there isn't a skill cap and justifying it by saying that players back in 200X couldn't stream is just using a flawed argument.Aqo wrote:
No matter what you say, people haven't come close to limits yet.
Things that look impossible to you now will become standard once players who play seriously will play more and improve more.
Trying to blame your inability to do stuff on nature is basically looking for excuses to not having nurtured enough.
1760 (440bpm 1/4ths) keyboard strokes per minute using only 2 keys on a keyboard is not far fetched according to other rhythm games.Aqo wrote:
300bpm streams don't even seem impossible to me right now D:
The hard limits right now (based on player performance) are:
250bpm stream
240bpm jump
The light limits (based on player inconsistent performance):
300bpm stream
275bpm jump