It's more like also considering playing the same map over & over again such as trying to FC something over a long period of time. Repetitive playing also counts as wrong nuturing because intended action from a normal player would to be moving on & playing a different map, only to come back to the map that has troubled them before.

RaneFire wrote:

loseri wrote:

Also wrong nurturing can bring down the skill cap.
I forgot to mention this.

How to define this?

Like spamming impossible stuff since the start.
Doing stuff that gives you bad habits.

8 pages wow.. I'm kinda late but still want to share my opinion.
There're kinda three aspects which makes people "different" in any kind of competition (let's say things like settings and stuff are already in ideal point):

Intelligence capacities
Determines the effectiveness of your learning process. Can be practiced by learning new things and doing math.
Physical capacities
Determines your physical limits. Obviously, can be practiced. do u even lift?
Mental capacities
Determines your goals and the amount of effort you put to achieve them. Can be changed by reprioritizing.

Why are some people better than others from the beginning?
-because the actual beginning begins not when you made an Osu! account or started lifting everyday but from your birth. You gain any kind of experience and having practice the whole life in many "not direct" ways. You train reaction playing ping-pong, sense of rhytm - playing musical instruments, fingers agility and speed - pressing keys in another games, coordination - juggling balls etc. you can even train your patience just being patient. Learning new things requires different skills some of which you already could own at pretty high level from learning another things. African people are physically stronger others because they have different living conditions that forces them to be strong, means they've just had more physical practice than others.

That's why everyone has a different starting point and learning speed. And that means if the skill cap is exist it's the same for everyone.
So the person you call talented simpy had more practice in any of those 3 aspects mentioned above.

Yes, animals and even humans doing same things for ages can evolute to do it even better (like again african people) but is veeery unnoticeable because it takes like thousands of years and evolving group must be fully isolated from other people.

tl;dr: Nurture, totally agree with Aqo.
sry for poor engrish ;_;

enik wrote:

8 pages wow.. I'm kinda late but still want to share my opinion.
There're kinda three aspects which makes people "different" in any kind of competition (let's say things like settings and stuff are already in ideal point):

Intelligence capacities
Determines the effectiveness of your learning process. Can be practiced by learning new things and doing math.
Physical capacities
Determines your physical limits. Obviously, can be practiced. do u even lift?
Mental capacities
Determines your goals and the amount of effort you put to achieve them. Can be changed by reprioritizing.

Why are some people better than others from the beginning?
-because the actual beginning begins not when you made an Osu! account or started lifting everyday but from your birth. You gain any kind of experience and having practice the whole life in many "not direct" ways. You train reaction playing ping-pong, sense of rhytm - playing musical instruments, fingers agility and speed - pressing keys in another games, coordination - juggling balls etc. you can even train your patience just being patient. Learning new things requires different skills some of which you already could own at pretty high level from learning another things. African people are physically stronger others because they have different living conditions that forces them to be strong, means they've just had more physical practice than others.

That's why everyone has a different starting point and learning speed. And that means if the skill cap is exist it's the same for everyone.
So the person you call talented simpy had more practice in any of those 3 aspects mentioned above.

Yes, animals and even humans doing same things for ages can evolute to do it even better (like again african people) but is veeery unnoticeable because it takes like thousands of years and evolving group must be fully isolated from other people.

tl;dr: Nurture, totally agree with Aqo.
sry for poor engrish ;_;

yes Yes YES, I absolutely agree, this thread was lacking a post like this one!

Hika wrote:

It's more like also considering playing the same map over & over again such as trying to FC something over a long period of time. Repetitive playing also counts as wrong nuturing because intended action from a normal player would to be moving on & playing a different map, only to come back to the map that has troubled them before.

I disagree. Sometimes I play a map 100 times in a row for whatever reason and I really dont mind retrying and replaying and in the end I only noticed positive things from it (that I could notice, because noticing when you get better is really damn hard after a certain point). I guess it comes down to the mindset and I am a very patient person.

lolcubes wrote:

Hika wrote:

It's more like also considering playing the same map over & over again such as trying to FC something over a long period of time. Repetitive playing also counts as wrong nuturing because intended action from a normal player would to be moving on & playing a different map, only to come back to the map that has troubled them before.

I disagree. Sometimes I play a map 100 times in a row for whatever reason and I really dont mind retrying and replaying and in the end I only noticed positive things from it (that I could notice, because noticing when you get better is really damn hard after a certain point). I guess it comes down to the mindset and I am a very patient person.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Some people are capable of that, which I forgot to point out in my earlier post. I'm one of those people where playing a map over & over again isn't helpful & it permanently damages my ability to play it ever again.

SteRRuM wrote:

enik wrote:

8 pages wow.. I'm kinda late but still want to share my opinion.
There're kinda three aspects which makes people "different" in any kind of competition (let's say things like settings and stuff are already in ideal point):

Intelligence capacities
Determines the effectiveness of your learning process. Can be practiced by learning new things and doing math.
Physical capacities
Determines your physical limits. Obviously, can be practiced. do u even lift?
Mental capacities
Determines your goals and the amount of effort you put to achieve them. Can be changed by reprioritizing.

Why are some people better than others from the beginning?
-because the actual beginning begins not when you made an Osu! account or started lifting everyday but from your birth. You gain any kind of experience and having practice the whole life in many "not direct" ways. You train reaction playing ping-pong, sense of rhytm - playing musical instruments, fingers agility and speed - pressing keys in another games, coordination - juggling balls etc. you can even train your patience just being patient. Learning new things requires different skills some of which you already could own at pretty high level from learning another things. African people are physically stronger others because they have different living conditions that forces them to be strong, means they've just had more physical practice than others.

That's why everyone has a different starting point and learning speed. And that means if the skill cap is exist it's the same for everyone.
So the person you call talented simpy had more practice in any of those 3 aspects mentioned above.

Yes, animals and even humans doing same things for ages can evolute to do it even better (like again african people) but is veeery unnoticeable because it takes like thousands of years and evolving group must be fully isolated from other people.

tl;dr: Nurture, totally agree with Aqo.
sry for poor engrish ;_;

yes Yes YES, I absolutely agree, this thread was lacking a post like this one!

also agree

sure some people have "genetic advantages" over others, but that just means more effort will have to be put in. you'll never get anywhere in anything putting the blame on genetics, construing hindrance as unbreakable barriers. and hey you might not see improvement right away, or you might fail despite putting in all that effort, but the moment when it does pay off gives one of the best feelings in the world

I sure do hate the feeling of having to maintain a pace daily to not lose any skill and barely gain any while playing.
I hate the feeling even more of losing the ability to play the less I play at like a 50x the rate I gain any skill.

I'm glad that I gave up playing to improve and went to 100% playing for fun.

I have no skill to lose in the first place

ew huge-ass name pls
ew bany wai

There is a lot of thought being put into this when I think it's rather simple. If you have natural talents, as the top players do, you will automatically be above average players. You can practice to try to make yourself as good as the top players (such as what I try to do ;_;), but in the end you will be expending a lot more time and effort to come even close to their level (or to be well below it such as I am).

tl;dr Practice is good and all, but those at the top of the totem pole will always be there.

loseri wrote:

ew huge-ass name pls
ew bany wai

i disliek peple jacking my avatar all the time lol

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.

That's not even an argument. It's a simplified point of view that fits your opinion, which you're trying to defend. It's just naive to think that everyone has the same skill cap from the start. Nobody disagrees that nurturing helps to improve thou.

Goodbye Shin wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.

That's not even an argument. It's a simplified point of view that fits your opinion, which you're trying to defend. It's just naive to think that everyone has the same skill cap from the start. Nobody disagrees that nurturing helps to improve thou.

It's naive to think there's a skill cap at all, because nobody has hit a skill cap yet.

Nobody.

Dudes

what if everyone has actually hit their skillcap

and the game is just being made easier every day

what a conspiracy

idk Aqo, jesse has sucked pretty bad for the entire last half of this year

In response to lewa: Yeah Scarlet Rose suddenly because easier in the last year, that's why Cookiezi was able to HR it now.

And Jappy jesse said doukoku was too fast than to be fun and that it's impossible to singletap like a few months ago when it was just submitted and now in the last week he singletapped it.

You don't improve overnight unless you practice correctly and focus on specific things one at a time but it happens over time and eventually you go back to old maps that used to be hard for you and suddenly realize they feel normal or even too easy.

jesse used to be such a noob like 6-8 months ago, now he's touched by jesus.

I wish I was touched by jesus, I'm getting sick of having to retry everything a 100 times before I manage to FC it once

both

Aqo wrote:

It's naive to think there's a skill cap at all, because nobody has hit a skill cap yet.

Nobody.

There is a skill cap, if there wouldn't be a skill cap then people could theoretically train to react faster than 10ms, and move their fingers fast enough to be able to play 1000bpm 1/4 streams flawlessly, but that's absurd, because you have PHYSICAL and MENTAL limitations, those limitations are not even for all of us.

druidxd wrote:

Aqo wrote:

It's naive to think there's a skill cap at all, because nobody has hit a skill cap yet.

Nobody.

There is a skill cap, if there wouldn't be a skill cap then people could theoretically train to react faster than 10ms, and move their fingers fast enough to be able to play 1000bpm 1/4 streams flawlessly, but that's absurd, because you have PHYSICAL and MENTAL limitations, those limitations are not even for all of us.

I don't think that makes much sense, no one has ever come even light years close to what you can define "physics and mental limitations".

Jordan wrote:

I don't think that makes much sense, no one has ever come even light years close to what you can define "physics and mental limitations".

That's the point, you can easily make something sound absurd, but if you think about it, if skill cap is non-existant, as Aqo said, just because nobody has hit it yet, then you can think of absurd things, such as streaming 1000 bpm, or reacting almost instantly, but as we know, that's just impossible, physically impossible, it's a limitation that our human body gives us.
So there is a skill cap, but how high is it? It depends, some people have higher skill caps, just because they have natural talents, they are better at some things, Cookiezi is a living proof of this, he is not the only one that has practiced a lot, I mean, there are at least 20 players that have practiced as much or even more than him (probably even more than 20), but he's still the best, he's the best osu player, and everyone agrees on that because he can show how good he is. He's naturally good.

My assumptions are that you can improve indefinetly, but the improvement becomes smaller every time, it's like limits on math, I guess, and the limit varies from one person to the other.

druidxd wrote:

then you can think of absurd things, such as streaming 1000 bpm, or reacting almost instantly, but as we know, that's just impossible, physically impossible, it's a limitation that our human body gives us.

The idea of streaming over 240bpm was absurd and beyond impossible at 2009. If you told somebody then that people can learn to do 270bpm streams he'll be like "pfft that's impossible".

Did the laws of physics suddenly change over the years or something.

Maps changed

Aqo wrote:

druidxd wrote:

then you can think of absurd things, such as streaming 1000 bpm, or reacting almost instantly, but as we know, that's just impossible, physically impossible, it's a limitation that our human body gives us.

The idea of streaming over 240bpm was absurd and beyond impossible at 2009. If you told somebody then that people can learn to do 270bpm streams he'll be like "pfft that's impossible".

Did the laws of physics suddenly change over the years or something.

Then let's wait 2 years and then we will be able to watch either cookiezi or someone else play 270bpm maps on DT+HR.

Don't know if serious or just trolling.

Even the laws of physics have limitations on certain aspects, as for example speed, you can't go faster than the speed of light.

genetics exist

Also, if you think about it, if you could develop a high enough skill, you will be bottlenecked by your hardware, such as your keyboard, you need to press keys on it, and you need to let it go for a fraction of a second to re-press it, you can't press it faster than that, it's not like you could press keys so fast to achieve 1000bpm streams, although I still have no mathematical facts on it, I should know how long does it take to the key to be able to press it again, but it should be calculated.

No matter what you say, people haven't come close to limits yet.
Things that look impossible to you now will become standard once players who play seriously will play more and improve more.
Trying to blame your inability to do stuff on nature is basically looking for excuses to not having nurtured enough.

300bpm streams seems impossible to me now, does it mean it will be the standard in 2 years ? C'mon aqo.

GoldenWolf wrote:

300bpm streams seems impossible to me now, does it mean it will be the standard in 2 years ? C'mon aqo.

300bpm streams don't even seem impossible to me right now D:

The hard limits right now (based on player performance) are:
250bpm stream
240bpm jump

The light limits (based on player inconsistent performance):
300bpm stream
275bpm jump

Nature affects nurture
Nurture can't affect nature
Thus Nature is the only thing that affects anything.

I will never be a top level player because I wasn't born with the ability to practice mundane tasks for hours on end. I have natural talent for music which has been nurtured over my life, however, which makes me above average at all rhythm games.

Jordan wrote:

There is a skill cap, if there wouldn't be a skill cap then people could theoretically train to react faster than 10ms, and move their fingers fast enough to be able to play 1000bpm 1/4 streams flawlessly, but that's absurd, because you have PHYSICAL and MENTAL limitations, those limitations are not even for all of us.

Humans are able to innovate in many different ways. 4000 bpm is a bit out there, but I imagine with 4 fingers and a little programming it would be easy to do. Someone would probably call that cheating though.

Also, reaction time can be completely negated through memorization.

Aqo wrote:

No matter what you say, people haven't come close to limits yet.
Things that look impossible to you now will become standard once players who play seriously will play more and improve more.
Trying to blame your inability to do stuff on nature is basically looking for excuses to not having nurtured enough.

I'm not looking for excuses, and i'm even probably soon retireing from osu because I'm going to start playing competitive dota 2, and other games, but saying that there isn't a skill cap and justifying it by saying that players back in 200X couldn't stream is just using a flawed argument.

High skilled players are coming closer and closer to their respective skill caps, and that is determined by a "genetic" level, if I might say so, although skill caps are probably not too distant from one to another, they are not exactly the same.

Yes, high skilled players can still improve, but the more they improve, the less the will be able to improve later, until the only thing that is left is retrying a map 2000 times until you FC it, even though you have been able to do it almost FCing it with 99.99% accuracy over and over, but you failed to FC it because a single miss.
Sure they can even memorize that map and play it with FL, being this an improvement on a mental way (memorizing a huge map, or something like that).

I can be wrong, I'm not saying that I'm the one who dictates the rules of this and that, it's just that this is how I see this.

Aqo wrote:

300bpm streams don't even seem impossible to me right now D:

The hard limits right now (based on player performance) are:
250bpm stream
240bpm jump

The light limits (based on player inconsistent performance):
300bpm stream
275bpm jump

1760 (440bpm 1/4ths) keyboard strokes per minute using only 2 keys on a keyboard is not far fetched according to other rhythm games.

ziin wrote:

1760 (440bpm 1/4ths) keyboard strokes per minute using only 2 keys on a keyboard is not far fetched according to other rhythm games.

I want those people's fingers and keyboards. ;_;

EDIT: It's amazing how fast one can "stream" using only two feet, though.

microsoft comfort curve 2000 is like $20.

EDIT: Heel and toe!

ziin wrote:

1760 (440bpm 1/4ths) keyboard strokes per minute using only 2 keys on a keyboard is not far fetched according to other rhythm games.

1760 keyboard strokes per minute using 2 keys.
880 keyboard strokes per minute per key (1760/2)
14,66666 keyboard strokes per second per key.
I've read somewhere that I can't find now that the world record was 16 keystrokes per second, so...

16*60 = 960. (960 keyboard strokes per minute, single key)
960*2 = 1920. (1920 keyboard strokes per minute, 2 keys)

That would theoretically be 480 bpm 1/4ths. World record.

So in theory, an osu player could play Syrsa - Mad Machine on DT, and even FC SS it, if he had perfect response time and aiming.

No person on earth would be able to stream 1000bpm, therefore skill cap exists because of physical limitations.

Btw, 300 bpm streams would probably be pro's standard in a couple of years, people can fc Mad Machine right now, which is 270 bpm.

The game is becoming easier not cause the skill of the player is raising but only cause there are more and more players...

If the world record is streaming 480bpm then we're still far off from being anywhere near the limit yo.
Come on guys step it up. Practice harder.
Do you even lift.

Well, that's not streaming 480bpm, that's singletapping 240 bpm. I can singletap 110 bpm for ages but can't stream 220 bpm for very long at all, so there's some difference.