^jesus1412 wrote:
Cookiezi is nature. People with crazy as shit accuracy are nature. Everything else can be learnt.
That's what I think.
I think it should be nature
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I think it should be nature
"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"
EDIT: I love you aqo, just something to think about.
GOD DAMNIT LEWA STOP POSTING RIGHT AFTER I HIT EDIT OMG YOU'RE DOING THIS ON PURPOSE meh
Also, to simplify matters for Aqo, talent is not some sort of magical voodoo thing that makes a person better at something. Think about how every person is different from each other (their bodies are different, their minds are different) and think about how they are better or worse at something because of this. Take it up to 11 and you have found what talent is.
That's a really simplified explanation, though.
and being talented in osu means:
-superior sense of rhythm
-easy adapting to spacing
-faster learning of speed
-mindsetting to never give up
edit: also it would be SOOOOO great to hear what Cookiezi thinks about this , sadly his not talented for speaking english
Also, this was intended to be a debate. I know some of you struggle to accept that other people think in a different manner from you but please try to keep the discussion constructive as opposed to the usual "you're stupid for saying that" and "wow you idiot". Respect each other's opinions.
While I agree with what you are saying... I don't know "which way the scale tips." - Probably both ways.
sure some people have "genetic advantages" over others, but that just means more effort will have to be put in. you'll never get anywhere in anything putting the blame on genetics, construing hindrance as unbreakable barriers. and hey you might not see improvement right away, or you might fail despite putting in all that effort, but the moment when it does pay off gives one of the best feelings in the world
Nobody.
So there is a skill cap, but how high is it? It depends, some people have higher skill caps, just because they have natural talents, they are better at some things, Cookiezi is a living proof of this, he is not the only one that has practiced a lot, I mean, there are at least 20 players that have practiced as much or even more than him (probably even more than 20), but he's still the best, he's the best osu player, and everyone agrees on that because he can show how good he is. He's naturally good.
My assumptions are that you can improve indefinetly, but the improvement becomes smaller every time, it's like limits on math, I guess, and the limit varies from one person to the other.
Did the laws of physics suddenly change over the years or something.
Then let's wait 2 years and then we will be able to watch either cookiezi or someone else play 270bpm maps on DT+HR.
Don't know if serious or just trolling.
Even the laws of physics have limitations on certain aspects, as for example speed, you can't go faster than the speed of light.
The hard limits right now (based on player performance) are:
250bpm stream
240bpm jump
The light limits (based on player inconsistent performance):
300bpm stream
275bpm jump
High skilled players are coming closer and closer to their respective skill caps, and that is determined by a "genetic" level, if I might say so, although skill caps are probably not too distant from one to another, they are not exactly the same.
Yes, high skilled players can still improve, but the more they improve, the less the will be able to improve later, until the only thing that is left is retrying a map 2000 times until you FC it, even though you have been able to do it almost FCing it with 99.99% accuracy over and over, but you failed to FC it because a single miss.
Sure they can even memorize that map and play it with FL, being this an improvement on a mental way (memorizing a huge map, or something like that).
I can be wrong, I'm not saying that I'm the one who dictates the rules of this and that, it's just that this is how I see this.
EDIT: It's amazing how fast one can "stream" using only two feet, though.
880 keyboard strokes per minute per key (1760/2)
14,66666 keyboard strokes per second per key.
I've read somewhere that I can't find now that the world record was 16 keystrokes per second, so...
16*60 = 960. (960 keyboard strokes per minute, single key)
960*2 = 1920. (1920 keyboard strokes per minute, 2 keys)
That would theoretically be 480 bpm 1/4ths. World record.
So in theory, an osu player could play Syrsa - Mad Machine on DT, and even FC SS it, if he had perfect response time and aiming.
No person on earth would be able to stream 1000bpm, therefore skill cap exists because of physical limitations.
Btw, 300 bpm streams would probably be pro's standard in a couple of years, people can fc Mad Machine right now, which is 270 bpm.
But that's not the point, the point is that we could establish a skill limit or cap, so, nurturing will only make you achieve that skill cap, but, is it the same for everyone? I don't think so, the way I see it, talented people can achieve better results and have a higher skill cap, so in a way, once everyone is "done" practicing, the "high level play" would be determined by nature and genetics, keep in mind that it is a theoretically way of seeing this, you can always memorize a map by playing it a billion times and get a better score that someone that is better than you because of flashlight, but if we give a new "limit pusher" map to a talented player, and a normal player that achieve their skill cap then on it's first try, the talented one will theoretically speaking achieve better results/score.
What I did was a kind of "extrapolation".
It was done to clarify that there is a skill limit, and that players are getting closer and closer to that limit, probably the closer they get, the less they will improve on the same amount of time "x".
Point is: nature doesn't limit you in any practical way. Maybe some cap exists somewhere but nobody can claim to be restricted by nature because so far there is not a single player anywhere close to a cap.
In fact, "natural talent" is everywhere, there are talented mathematicians, talented actors, why can't there be talented osu players? it's not that they were born to play osu, but they were born with better "things" like reflexes, control over their hands, focus, etcetera, just as talented mathematicians or talented chess players are more intelligent, they aren't born to play chess, but they have higher "intelligence" that makes them better at those things.
*Edit*: there would probably be a more clear line between high level "talented" players and high level "normal" players in a couple years in the future.
That's my thought about this.
Skill cap is like Asymptote in math; you can improve forever, but you'll never reach that skill cap.
When you first start osu!, you do progress quickly, and in like 1-2 months for the common people you start FCing easier insanes without much problems, but over the time, even if you still doing progress, it become smaller and smaller.
Some people have the skill cap higher than others, that's unfair, but life is unfair.
I know I'll never be as good as the top players are, (mainly because of my carpal tunnel >.>) but it doesn't mean I'll never be good at this game.
And of course we're somehow limited in Osu! because after all it's just a game about clicking circles and some of us might take it too serious (and that's logical with the amount of time we put into it). We can't dedicate all our lifes playing it, but it's not the reason to quit now. Life itself is pointless so just have fun while you can.
Another example of nature over nurture is Usain Bolt, now that I think about it, his body is perfect for running, and because of that he gets a nature advantage over others in for example, the olympic games, and his advanteges didn't make a great difference until he had developed his skill high enough, reaching his physical limit, or skill cap.
The "forget" factor is something that happens, for example, players get used to playing AR10, then they don't play as good as they would expect on lower AR (9/8/7), but they can re-learn how to play on those AR's faster than they did learn it the first time, so it shouldn't be a limit.
Pretty sure this is possible at 1.1x
In 7 seconds he pressed 100 times a single key
In 1 second he pressed X times a single key.
1x100 = 100
100/7 = X = 14,285 approx, we can say it's between 14 and 14,5 but not much more than that, just because youtube time system doesn't show miliseconds.
And he's doing that "shivering" method that I described earlier.
So he basically can do:
14,285 x 60 = 857
857 / 4 = 214,275 bpm 1/4ths stream by singletapping.
It's really fun to calculate all this
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I think it should be nature
DeletedUser_910779
Obviously it's all genetics and background. You just have to work with what you've got. There are different areas to excel at in osu:
- Snapping/movement/cursor dancing (in the end it doesn't matter how you move, but hey it adds your unique signature to your replays)
- Accuracy (getting that perfect hit within the millisecond)
- Focus (allowing your mind to focus solely on playing)
- Reading (confusing patterns and overlapping notes, fast or slow AR)
- Spinning (clockwise/anti clockwise, consistently under stressful areas of a map)
- Endurance (maintaining focus for extended periods, playing for several hours a day without getting bored)
- Stamina (how consistent you are under stressful play)
- Aim (tiny circles, difficult angles, wide distances)
- Reaction speed (how fast you respond to sudden activity, can be overcome with memory or predicting the next note(reading))
- Streaming (consistency, speed, alternating, single tapping)
- Memory (how fast you can memorize something in the least amount of plays possible, how many things stay permanently stored in your memory eg. a difficult section of a map)
- Adapting (to sudden changes, a new input device)
There are probably a few others aswell. Most likely how you first start playing the game has an effect on how you will turn out. Training may help with your weak areas, but you won't be better than somebody who excels in certain areas no matter how much you "nurture" it. Also your input device will obviously help with the physical side of things, I won't even go into how many areas there are regarding input device.
Then you've got things like posture, ergonomics EG (A player sitting up straight will do better than a player who is slouching). The way you grip your input device, height of the desk you play on. How far away you sit from the desk, Computers fps and specs, your monitors refresh rate, how tired you are. The length of your fingers (may affect streaming speed), whether you sweat alot (grip). What type of headphones you have. How well your right brain co-exists with your left brain during play (this will have an obvious affect on confusing stream notes such as dj pops streams) etc etc etc
tl;dr: Nature.
- Snapping/movement/cursor dancing (in the end it doesn't matter how you move, but hey it adds your unique signature to your replays)
- Accuracy (getting that perfect hit within the millisecond)
- Focus (allowing your mind to focus solely on playing)
- Reading (confusing patterns and overlapping notes, fast or slow AR)
- Spinning (clockwise/anti clockwise, consistently under stressful areas of a map)
- Endurance (maintaining focus for extended periods, playing for several hours a day without getting bored)
- Stamina (how consistent you are under stressful play)
- Aim (tiny circles, difficult angles, wide distances)
- Reaction speed (how fast you respond to sudden activity, can be overcome with memory or predicting the next note(reading))
- Streaming (consistency, speed, alternating, single tapping)
- Memory (how fast you can memorize something in the least amount of plays possible, how many things stay permanently stored in your memory eg. a difficult section of a map)
- Adapting (to sudden changes, a new input device)
There are probably a few others aswell. Most likely how you first start playing the game has an effect on how you will turn out. Training may help with your weak areas, but you won't be better than somebody who excels in certain areas no matter how much you "nurture" it. Also your input device will obviously help with the physical side of things, I won't even go into how many areas there are regarding input device.
Then you've got things like posture, ergonomics EG (A player sitting up straight will do better than a player who is slouching). The way you grip your input device, height of the desk you play on. How far away you sit from the desk, Computers fps and specs, your monitors refresh rate, how tired you are. The length of your fingers (may affect streaming speed), whether you sweat alot (grip). What type of headphones you have. How well your right brain co-exists with your left brain during play (this will have an obvious affect on confusing stream notes such as dj pops streams) etc etc etc
tl;dr: Nature.
Nature.
If it was nurture then many people would have outskilled cookiezi.
Cookiezi is "that special player". Every game has 1
If it was nurture then many people would have outskilled cookiezi.
Cookiezi is "that special player". Every game has 1
Nurture plays a huge role but nature will always be the limiting factor, always.
Nurturing you nature skill, reaching nature skill limit.Then ? Transcending nature limit by tons of nurturing, just to get 0.01% more ? Don't know if there is someone has just only discovered new innert nature on very late stages, or altered or created new nature.
I agree.Maneuver wrote:
Nurturing you nature skill, reaching nature skill limit.Then ? Transcending nature limit by tons of nurturing, just to get 0.01% more ? Don't know if there is someone has just only discovered new innert nature on very late stages, or altered or created new nature.
Same, also for the "put 2 people, make them train 2 months and see the results" there are too many factors influencing that in the game, like FPS in game (low fps = cursor lag) playing devices, mood, physical conditions ecc...Kanye West wrote:
20% nature, 80% nurture
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
what a stupid thing to say.Aqo wrote:
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"
What a stupid thing to say. That doesn't even make sense. Everybody who trains at something gets better at it with no exceptions.Tanzklaue wrote:
"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"
DeletedUser_910779
What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?Aqo wrote:
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
EDIT: I love you aqo, just something to think about.
What does any of this have to do with your ability to click on circlesSoly wrote:
What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?
GOD DAMNIT LEWA STOP POSTING RIGHT AFTER I HIT EDIT OMG YOU'RE DOING THIS ON PURPOSE meh
That's ingenious.Soly wrote:
What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?Aqo wrote:
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
Also, to simplify matters for Aqo, talent is not some sort of magical voodoo thing that makes a person better at something. Think about how every person is different from each other (their bodies are different, their minds are different) and think about how they are better or worse at something because of this. Take it up to 11 and you have found what talent is.
That's a really simplified explanation, though.
Yes lewa I understand perfectly well what you mean.
However being talented in osu would mean what, being born with better... wrists? Better eyesight?
As long as your body is capable of moving a finger up and down and perceiving the difference between a circle and the background you have all the tools you need to train and get as good as cookiezi or better.
However being talented in osu would mean what, being born with better... wrists? Better eyesight?
As long as your body is capable of moving a finger up and down and perceiving the difference between a circle and the background you have all the tools you need to train and get as good as cookiezi or better.
Why wrists?
Because a stronger wrist allows to aim more consistently and hit buttons consistently for longer without getting tired.
Except wrist strength is trainable and it's not something people are born with particularly significant different levels on.
Except wrist strength is trainable and it's not something people are born with particularly significant different levels on.
It's a matter of both. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Have you heard of "squandered talent" ?
Having talent still requires practice.
Have you heard of "squandered talent" ?
Having talent still requires practice.
For everyone else it takes longer.Aeidxst wrote:
Ability is just a shortcut.
I think it's more to do with your mind than your physical strength.Aqo wrote:
Yes lewa I understand perfectly well what you mean.
However being talented in osu would mean what, being born with better... wrists? Better eyesight?
As long as your body is capable of moving a finger up and down and perceiving the difference between a circle and the background you have all the tools you need to train and get as good as cookiezi or better.
I put in quotas because it's stupid, I don't think that way myself. I just wanted to show you that your statement is on a similar level of stupidity. I think that I suck, and that it is clearly because of lack of practice and motivation, and everytime I play I have the feeling I should be much better at this than I am. but this game jsut doesn't do it for me anymore, so I don't think I will ever get my full potential released; whereever it might have been.Aqo wrote:
What a stupid thing to say. That doesn't even make sense. Everybody who trains at something gets better at it with no exceptions.Tanzklaue wrote:
"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"
and being talented in osu means:
-superior sense of rhythm
-easy adapting to spacing
-faster learning of speed
-mindsetting to never give up
one day an african will come and take Cookiezi place, one day.Soly wrote:
What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting?EDIT: I love you aqo, just something to think about
edit: also it would be SOOOOO great to hear what Cookiezi thinks about this , sadly his not talented for speaking english
I'm still trying to find a real "African" who plays osu!Liutprando wrote:
one day an african will come and take Cookiezi place, one day.Soly wrote:
What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting?EDIT: I love you aqo, just something to think about
edit: also it would be SOOOOO great to hear what Cookiezi thinks about this , sadly his not talented for speaking english
Just deal with it, if you compare two people that play osu! under the same hardware to avoid FPS difference, cursor lag and such, with the same keyboard and tablet, and both have the exact same playstyle, if one has better reflexes and stamina, their skill cap WILL be higher, cause he can react faster and last longer than the other one. The way I see it is like comparing two different PCs that share the exact same software (being the software the comparison to having the same input devices on players, tablet, keyboard and also PC.), one has better hardware than the other (because of their "talent"), they both have the same software, the one with better hardware will win EVERY test, simple as that.
Achieven high level play CAN be done by practicing, and even if you are talented you need to practice, but the skill cap on every player is different, and talented ones WILL have a higher skill cap, because their body has more potential.
I hope that explained my point of view.
Achieven high level play CAN be done by practicing, and even if you are talented you need to practice, but the skill cap on every player is different, and talented ones WILL have a higher skill cap, because their body has more potential.
I hope that explained my point of view.
Topic Starter
Tanzklaue wrote:
and being talented in osu means:
-superior sense of rhythm
-easy adapting to spacing
-faster learning of speed
-mindsetting to never give up
Wouldn't you say that a player's mindset, motivation and mental approach to the game can only be nurtured?thelewa wrote:
I think it's more to do with your mind than your physical strength.
Also, this was intended to be a debate. I know some of you struggle to accept that other people think in a different manner from you but please try to keep the discussion constructive as opposed to the usual "you're stupid for saying that" and "wow you idiot". Respect each other's opinions.
Some people can naturally comprehend more things at a time than others, and do it faster. This can be trained to a certain degree, but there's no making a genius out of a person who wasn't born one. Trust me, I know this better than anyone else since my parents tried to make me one.LaVolpe024 wrote:
Wouldn't you say that a player's mindset, motivation and mental approach to the game can only be nurtured?thelewa wrote:
I think it's more to do with your mind than your physical strength.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
― Albert Einstein
Nature determines how high your skill cap is.
Nurture only determines how close to it you will get.
It is naive to assume that everyone is on equal footing in osu! or any other thing for that matter.
Nurture only determines how close to it you will get.
It is naive to assume that everyone is on equal footing in osu! or any other thing for that matter.
I dun understand this, by knowing you are not as talented as others, you know/acknowledge you have to train more harder than the talented person to be at the same level or surpass him.Tanzklaue wrote:
what a stupid thing to say.Aqo wrote:
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"
How to define this? Playing Easy/Normals for too long could get you too used to playing these difficulties. Playing Insanes off-the-bat, or difficulties that are too hard for you on a regular basis could also be counter-productive.loseri wrote:
Also wrong nurturing can bring down the skill cap.
I forgot to mention this.
While I agree with what you are saying... I don't know "which way the scale tips." - Probably both ways.
It's more like also considering playing the same map over & over again such as trying to FC something over a long period of time. Repetitive playing also counts as wrong nuturing because intended action from a normal player would to be moving on & playing a different map, only to come back to the map that has troubled them before.
she_old
8 pages wow.. I'm kinda late but still want to share my opinion.
There're kinda three aspects which makes people "different" in any kind of competition (let's say things like settings and stuff are already in ideal point):
Intelligence capacities
Determines the effectiveness of your learning process. Can be practiced by learning new things and doing math.
Physical capacities
Determines your physical limits. Obviously, can be practiced. do u even lift?
Mental capacities
Determines your goals and the amount of effort you put to achieve them. Can be changed by reprioritizing.
Why are some people better than others from the beginning?
-because the actual beginning begins not when you made an Osu! account or started lifting everyday but from your birth. You gain any kind of experience and having practice the whole life in many "not direct" ways. You train reaction playing ping-pong, sense of rhytm - playing musical instruments, fingers agility and speed - pressing keys in another games, coordination - juggling balls etc. you can even train your patience just being patient. Learning new things requires different skills some of which you already could own at pretty high level from learning another things. African people are physically stronger others because they have different living conditions that forces them to be strong, means they've just had more physical practice than others.
That's why everyone has a different starting point and learning speed. And that means if the skill cap is exist it's the same for everyone.
So the person you call talented simpy had more practice in any of those 3 aspects mentioned above.
Yes, animals and even humans doing same things for ages can evolute to do it even better (like again african people) but is veeery unnoticeable because it takes like thousands of years and evolving group must be fully isolated from other people.
tl;dr: Nurture, totally agree with Aqo.
sry for poor engrish ;_;
There're kinda three aspects which makes people "different" in any kind of competition (let's say things like settings and stuff are already in ideal point):
Intelligence capacities
Determines the effectiveness of your learning process. Can be practiced by learning new things and doing math.
Physical capacities
Determines your physical limits. Obviously, can be practiced. do u even lift?
Mental capacities
Determines your goals and the amount of effort you put to achieve them. Can be changed by reprioritizing.
Why are some people better than others from the beginning?
-because the actual beginning begins not when you made an Osu! account or started lifting everyday but from your birth. You gain any kind of experience and having practice the whole life in many "not direct" ways. You train reaction playing ping-pong, sense of rhytm - playing musical instruments, fingers agility and speed - pressing keys in another games, coordination - juggling balls etc. you can even train your patience just being patient. Learning new things requires different skills some of which you already could own at pretty high level from learning another things. African people are physically stronger others because they have different living conditions that forces them to be strong, means they've just had more physical practice than others.
That's why everyone has a different starting point and learning speed. And that means if the skill cap is exist it's the same for everyone.
So the person you call talented simpy had more practice in any of those 3 aspects mentioned above.
Yes, animals and even humans doing same things for ages can evolute to do it even better (like again african people) but is veeery unnoticeable because it takes like thousands of years and evolving group must be fully isolated from other people.
tl;dr: Nurture, totally agree with Aqo.
sry for poor engrish ;_;
yes Yes YES, I absolutely agree, this thread was lacking a post like this one!enik wrote:
8 pages wow.. I'm kinda late but still want to share my opinion.
There're kinda three aspects which makes people "different" in any kind of competition (let's say things like settings and stuff are already in ideal point):
Intelligence capacities
Determines the effectiveness of your learning process. Can be practiced by learning new things and doing math.
Physical capacities
Determines your physical limits. Obviously, can be practiced. do u even lift?
Mental capacities
Determines your goals and the amount of effort you put to achieve them. Can be changed by reprioritizing.
Why are some people better than others from the beginning?
-because the actual beginning begins not when you made an Osu! account or started lifting everyday but from your birth. You gain any kind of experience and having practice the whole life in many "not direct" ways. You train reaction playing ping-pong, sense of rhytm - playing musical instruments, fingers agility and speed - pressing keys in another games, coordination - juggling balls etc. you can even train your patience just being patient. Learning new things requires different skills some of which you already could own at pretty high level from learning another things. African people are physically stronger others because they have different living conditions that forces them to be strong, means they've just had more physical practice than others.
That's why everyone has a different starting point and learning speed. And that means if the skill cap is exist it's the same for everyone.
So the person you call talented simpy had more practice in any of those 3 aspects mentioned above.
Yes, animals and even humans doing same things for ages can evolute to do it even better (like again african people) but is veeery unnoticeable because it takes like thousands of years and evolving group must be fully isolated from other people.
tl;dr: Nurture, totally agree with Aqo.
sry for poor engrish ;_;
I disagree. Sometimes I play a map 100 times in a row for whatever reason and I really dont mind retrying and replaying and in the end I only noticed positive things from it (that I could notice, because noticing when you get better is really damn hard after a certain point). I guess it comes down to the mindset and I am a very patient person.Hika wrote:
It's more like also considering playing the same map over & over again such as trying to FC something over a long period of time. Repetitive playing also counts as wrong nuturing because intended action from a normal player would to be moving on & playing a different map, only to come back to the map that has troubled them before.
Yeah, I know what you mean. Some people are capable of that, which I forgot to point out in my earlier post. I'm one of those people where playing a map over & over again isn't helpful & it permanently damages my ability to play it ever again.lolcubes wrote:
I disagree. Sometimes I play a map 100 times in a row for whatever reason and I really dont mind retrying and replaying and in the end I only noticed positive things from it (that I could notice, because noticing when you get better is really damn hard after a certain point). I guess it comes down to the mindset and I am a very patient person.Hika wrote:
It's more like also considering playing the same map over & over again such as trying to FC something over a long period of time. Repetitive playing also counts as wrong nuturing because intended action from a normal player would to be moving on & playing a different map, only to come back to the map that has troubled them before.
also agreeSteRRuM wrote:
yes Yes YES, I absolutely agree, this thread was lacking a post like this one!enik wrote:
8 pages wow.. I'm kinda late but still want to share my opinion.
There're kinda three aspects which makes people "different" in any kind of competition (let's say things like settings and stuff are already in ideal point):
Intelligence capacities
Determines the effectiveness of your learning process. Can be practiced by learning new things and doing math.
Physical capacities
Determines your physical limits. Obviously, can be practiced. do u even lift?
Mental capacities
Determines your goals and the amount of effort you put to achieve them. Can be changed by reprioritizing.
Why are some people better than others from the beginning?
-because the actual beginning begins not when you made an Osu! account or started lifting everyday but from your birth. You gain any kind of experience and having practice the whole life in many "not direct" ways. You train reaction playing ping-pong, sense of rhytm - playing musical instruments, fingers agility and speed - pressing keys in another games, coordination - juggling balls etc. you can even train your patience just being patient. Learning new things requires different skills some of which you already could own at pretty high level from learning another things. African people are physically stronger others because they have different living conditions that forces them to be strong, means they've just had more physical practice than others.
That's why everyone has a different starting point and learning speed. And that means if the skill cap is exist it's the same for everyone.
So the person you call talented simpy had more practice in any of those 3 aspects mentioned above.
Yes, animals and even humans doing same things for ages can evolute to do it even better (like again african people) but is veeery unnoticeable because it takes like thousands of years and evolving group must be fully isolated from other people.
tl;dr: Nurture, totally agree with Aqo.
sry for poor engrish ;_;
sure some people have "genetic advantages" over others, but that just means more effort will have to be put in. you'll never get anywhere in anything putting the blame on genetics, construing hindrance as unbreakable barriers. and hey you might not see improvement right away, or you might fail despite putting in all that effort, but the moment when it does pay off gives one of the best feelings in the world
she_old
I sure do hate the feeling of having to maintain a pace daily to not lose any skill and barely gain any while playing.
I hate the feeling even more of losing the ability to play the less I play at like a 50x the rate I gain any skill.
I'm glad that I gave up playing to improve and went to 100% playing for fun.
I hate the feeling even more of losing the ability to play the less I play at like a 50x the rate I gain any skill.
I'm glad that I gave up playing to improve and went to 100% playing for fun.
I have no skill to lose in the first place 
There is a lot of thought being put into this when I think it's rather simple. If you have natural talents, as the top players do, you will automatically be above average players. You can practice to try to make yourself as good as the top players (such as what I try to do ;_;), but in the end you will be expending a lot more time and effort to come even close to their level (or to be well below it such as I am).
tl;dr Practice is good and all, but those at the top of the totem pole will always be there.
tl;dr Practice is good and all, but those at the top of the totem pole will always be there.
i disliek peple jacking my avatar all the time lolloseri wrote:
ew huge-ass name pls
ew bany wai
That's not even an argument. It's a simplified point of view that fits your opinion, which you're trying to defend. It's just naive to think that everyone has the same skill cap from the start. Nobody disagrees that nurturing helps to improve thou.Aqo wrote:
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
It's naive to think there's a skill cap at all, because nobody has hit a skill cap yet.Goodbye Shin wrote:
That's not even an argument. It's a simplified point of view that fits your opinion, which you're trying to defend. It's just naive to think that everyone has the same skill cap from the start. Nobody disagrees that nurturing helps to improve thou.Aqo wrote:
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
Nobody.
Dudes
what if everyone has actually hit their skillcap
and the game is just being made easier every day
what a conspiracy
what if everyone has actually hit their skillcap
and the game is just being made easier every day
what a conspiracy
idk Aqo, jesse has sucked pretty bad for the entire last half of this year
In response to lewa: Yeah Scarlet Rose suddenly because easier in the last year, that's why Cookiezi was able to HR it now.
And Jappy jesse said doukoku was too fast than to be fun and that it's impossible to singletap like a few months ago when it was just submitted and now in the last week he singletapped it.
You don't improve overnight unless you practice correctly and focus on specific things one at a time but it happens over time and eventually you go back to old maps that used to be hard for you and suddenly realize they feel normal or even too easy.
And Jappy jesse said doukoku was too fast than to be fun and that it's impossible to singletap like a few months ago when it was just submitted and now in the last week he singletapped it.
You don't improve overnight unless you practice correctly and focus on specific things one at a time but it happens over time and eventually you go back to old maps that used to be hard for you and suddenly realize they feel normal or even too easy.
I wish I was touched by jesus, I'm getting sick of having to retry everything a 100 times before I manage to FC it once
both
There is a skill cap, if there wouldn't be a skill cap then people could theoretically train to react faster than 10ms, and move their fingers fast enough to be able to play 1000bpm 1/4 streams flawlessly, but that's absurd, because you have PHYSICAL and MENTAL limitations, those limitations are not even for all of us.Aqo wrote:
It's naive to think there's a skill cap at all, because nobody has hit a skill cap yet.
Nobody.
I don't think that makes much sense, no one has ever come even light years close to what you can define "physics and mental limitations".druidxd wrote:
There is a skill cap, if there wouldn't be a skill cap then people could theoretically train to react faster than 10ms, and move their fingers fast enough to be able to play 1000bpm 1/4 streams flawlessly, but that's absurd, because you have PHYSICAL and MENTAL limitations, those limitations are not even for all of us.Aqo wrote:
It's naive to think there's a skill cap at all, because nobody has hit a skill cap yet.
Nobody.
That's the point, you can easily make something sound absurd, but if you think about it, if skill cap is non-existant, as Aqo said, just because nobody has hit it yet, then you can think of absurd things, such as streaming 1000 bpm, or reacting almost instantly, but as we know, that's just impossible, physically impossible, it's a limitation that our human body gives us.Jordan wrote:
I don't think that makes much sense, no one has ever come even light years close to what you can define "physics and mental limitations".
So there is a skill cap, but how high is it? It depends, some people have higher skill caps, just because they have natural talents, they are better at some things, Cookiezi is a living proof of this, he is not the only one that has practiced a lot, I mean, there are at least 20 players that have practiced as much or even more than him (probably even more than 20), but he's still the best, he's the best osu player, and everyone agrees on that because he can show how good he is. He's naturally good.
My assumptions are that you can improve indefinetly, but the improvement becomes smaller every time, it's like limits on math, I guess, and the limit varies from one person to the other.
The idea of streaming over 240bpm was absurd and beyond impossible at 2009. If you told somebody then that people can learn to do 270bpm streams he'll be like "pfft that's impossible".druidxd wrote:
then you can think of absurd things, such as streaming 1000 bpm, or reacting almost instantly, but as we know, that's just impossible, physically impossible, it's a limitation that our human body gives us.
Did the laws of physics suddenly change over the years or something.
Maps changed
Aqo wrote:
The idea of streaming over 240bpm was absurd and beyond impossible at 2009. If you told somebody then that people can learn to do 270bpm streams he'll be like "pfft that's impossible".druidxd wrote:
then you can think of absurd things, such as streaming 1000 bpm, or reacting almost instantly, but as we know, that's just impossible, physically impossible, it's a limitation that our human body gives us.
Did the laws of physics suddenly change over the years or something.
Then let's wait 2 years and then we will be able to watch either cookiezi or someone else play 270bpm maps on DT+HR.
Don't know if serious or just trolling.
Even the laws of physics have limitations on certain aspects, as for example speed, you can't go faster than the speed of light.
genetics exist
Also, if you think about it, if you could develop a high enough skill, you will be bottlenecked by your hardware, such as your keyboard, you need to press keys on it, and you need to let it go for a fraction of a second to re-press it, you can't press it faster than that, it's not like you could press keys so fast to achieve 1000bpm streams, although I still have no mathematical facts on it, I should know how long does it take to the key to be able to press it again, but it should be calculated.
No matter what you say, people haven't come close to limits yet.
Things that look impossible to you now will become standard once players who play seriously will play more and improve more.
Trying to blame your inability to do stuff on nature is basically looking for excuses to not having nurtured enough.
Things that look impossible to you now will become standard once players who play seriously will play more and improve more.
Trying to blame your inability to do stuff on nature is basically looking for excuses to not having nurtured enough.
300bpm streams seems impossible to me now, does it mean it will be the standard in 2 years ? C'mon aqo.
300bpm streams don't even seem impossible to me right now D:GoldenWolf wrote:
300bpm streams seems impossible to me now, does it mean it will be the standard in 2 years ? C'mon aqo.
The hard limits right now (based on player performance) are:
250bpm stream
240bpm jump
The light limits (based on player inconsistent performance):
300bpm stream
275bpm jump
Nature affects nurture
Nurture can't affect nature
Thus Nature is the only thing that affects anything.
I will never be a top level player because I wasn't born with the ability to practice mundane tasks for hours on end. I have natural talent for music which has been nurtured over my life, however, which makes me above average at all rhythm games.
Also, reaction time can be completely negated through memorization.
Nurture can't affect nature
Thus Nature is the only thing that affects anything.
I will never be a top level player because I wasn't born with the ability to practice mundane tasks for hours on end. I have natural talent for music which has been nurtured over my life, however, which makes me above average at all rhythm games.
Humans are able to innovate in many different ways. 4000 bpm is a bit out there, but I imagine with 4 fingers and a little programming it would be easy to do. Someone would probably call that cheating though.Jordan wrote:
There is a skill cap, if there wouldn't be a skill cap then people could theoretically train to react faster than 10ms, and move their fingers fast enough to be able to play 1000bpm 1/4 streams flawlessly, but that's absurd, because you have PHYSICAL and MENTAL limitations, those limitations are not even for all of us.
Also, reaction time can be completely negated through memorization.
I'm not looking for excuses, and i'm even probably soon retireing from osu because I'm going to start playing competitive dota 2, and other games, but saying that there isn't a skill cap and justifying it by saying that players back in 200X couldn't stream is just using a flawed argument.Aqo wrote:
No matter what you say, people haven't come close to limits yet.
Things that look impossible to you now will become standard once players who play seriously will play more and improve more.
Trying to blame your inability to do stuff on nature is basically looking for excuses to not having nurtured enough.
High skilled players are coming closer and closer to their respective skill caps, and that is determined by a "genetic" level, if I might say so, although skill caps are probably not too distant from one to another, they are not exactly the same.
Yes, high skilled players can still improve, but the more they improve, the less the will be able to improve later, until the only thing that is left is retrying a map 2000 times until you FC it, even though you have been able to do it almost FCing it with 99.99% accuracy over and over, but you failed to FC it because a single miss.
Sure they can even memorize that map and play it with FL, being this an improvement on a mental way (memorizing a huge map, or something like that).
I can be wrong, I'm not saying that I'm the one who dictates the rules of this and that, it's just that this is how I see this.
1760 (440bpm 1/4ths) keyboard strokes per minute using only 2 keys on a keyboard is not far fetched according to other rhythm games.Aqo wrote:
300bpm streams don't even seem impossible to me right now D:
The hard limits right now (based on player performance) are:
250bpm stream
240bpm jump
The light limits (based on player inconsistent performance):
300bpm stream
275bpm jump
I want those people's fingers and keyboards. ;_;ziin wrote:
1760 (440bpm 1/4ths) keyboard strokes per minute using only 2 keys on a keyboard is not far fetched according to other rhythm games.
EDIT: It's amazing how fast one can "stream" using only two feet, though.
microsoft comfort curve 2000 is like $20.
EDIT: Heel and toe!
EDIT: Heel and toe!
1760 keyboard strokes per minute using 2 keys.ziin wrote:
1760 (440bpm 1/4ths) keyboard strokes per minute using only 2 keys on a keyboard is not far fetched according to other rhythm games.
880 keyboard strokes per minute per key (1760/2)
14,66666 keyboard strokes per second per key.
I've read somewhere that I can't find now that the world record was 16 keystrokes per second, so...
16*60 = 960. (960 keyboard strokes per minute, single key)
960*2 = 1920. (1920 keyboard strokes per minute, 2 keys)
That would theoretically be 480 bpm 1/4ths. World record.
So in theory, an osu player could play Syrsa - Mad Machine on DT, and even FC SS it, if he had perfect response time and aiming.
No person on earth would be able to stream 1000bpm, therefore skill cap exists because of physical limitations.
Btw, 300 bpm streams would probably be pro's standard in a couple of years, people can fc Mad Machine right now, which is 270 bpm.
The game is becoming easier not cause the skill of the player is raising but only cause there are more and more players...
If the world record is streaming 480bpm then we're still far off from being anywhere near the limit yo.
Come on guys step it up. Practice harder.
Do you even lift.
Come on guys step it up. Practice harder.
Do you even lift.
Well, that's not streaming 480bpm, that's singletapping 240 bpm. I can singletap 110 bpm for ages but can't stream 220 bpm for very long at all, so there's some difference.
That's the world record of keystrokes per second on a SINGLE key, and that's probably done the same way we see people upload single tapping videos to youtube where they stream at about 180bpm/190bpm single tapping, they don't really press it the same way we do, they do something as "shivering" to achieve this. I doubt that people could "shiver" double tapping, too unlikely, and probably impossible, unless it's done with the taiko big circle method, but that means poor accuracy. So no, I don't think anyone would be able to stream 480bpm, probably 300-350bpm 1/4ths, but it's already really a lot, more than that's it's too unlikely.Aqo wrote:
If the world record is streaming 480bpm then we're still far off from being anywhere near the limit yo.
Come on guys step it up. Practice harder.
Do you even lift.
But that's not the point, the point is that we could establish a skill limit or cap, so, nurturing will only make you achieve that skill cap, but, is it the same for everyone? I don't think so, the way I see it, talented people can achieve better results and have a higher skill cap, so in a way, once everyone is "done" practicing, the "high level play" would be determined by nature and genetics, keep in mind that it is a theoretically way of seeing this, you can always memorize a map by playing it a billion times and get a better score that someone that is better than you because of flashlight, but if we give a new "limit pusher" map to a talented player, and a normal player that achieve their skill cap then on it's first try, the talented one will theoretically speaking achieve better results/score.
Do you single tap 240bpm 1/4ths streams? (the math was done counting every note on a Xbpm 1/4ths stream)MillhioreF wrote:
Well, that's not streaming 480bpm, that's singletapping 240 bpm. I can singletap 110 bpm for ages but can't stream 220 bpm for very long at all, so there's some difference.
You can't just double single tap speed and call it stream speed
Otherwise I'd be dt'ing chipscape
Otherwise I'd be dt'ing chipscape
I know, It was just a calculation done theoretically, there are other factors involved in osu!, pratically I would say that a stream "skill cap" would be around achieve 300-350bpm 1/4ths, talking about pro's.buny wrote:
You can't just double single tap speed and call it stream speed
Otherwise I'd be dt'ing chipscape
What I did was a kind of "extrapolation".
It was done to clarify that there is a skill limit, and that players are getting closer and closer to that limit, probably the closer they get, the less they will improve on the same amount of time "x".
You're just making up numbers and, had somebody made up those numbers with the same mindset you're using right now, 3 years ago, they'd come up with lower numbers.druidxd wrote:
I know, It was just a calculation done theoretically, there are other factors involved in osu!, pratically I would say that a stream "skill cap" would be around achieve 300-350bpm 1/4ths, talking about pro's.
Point is: nature doesn't limit you in any practical way. Maybe some cap exists somewhere but nobody can claim to be restricted by nature because so far there is not a single player anywhere close to a cap.
That IS true right now, but in a couple years it will be more evident that nature limits you, as you said, we will be impressed by people streaming 325bpm, and we would probably say that this was unthinkable 2 years in the past, probably cookiezi will still be a "god" of osu, but also probably other players will shine with their talent.Aqo wrote:
You're just making up numbers and, had somebody made up those numbers with the same mindset you're using right now, 3 years ago, they'd come up with lower numbers.druidxd wrote:
I know, It was just a calculation done theoretically, there are other factors involved in osu!, pratically I would say that a stream "skill cap" would be around achieve 300-350bpm 1/4ths, talking about pro's.
Point is: nature doesn't limit you in any practical way. Maybe some cap exists somewhere but nobody can claim to be restricted by nature because so far there is not a single player anywhere close to a cap.
In fact, "natural talent" is everywhere, there are talented mathematicians, talented actors, why can't there be talented osu players? it's not that they were born to play osu, but they were born with better "things" like reflexes, control over their hands, focus, etcetera, just as talented mathematicians or talented chess players are more intelligent, they aren't born to play chess, but they have higher "intelligence" that makes them better at those things.
*Edit*: there would probably be a more clear line between high level "talented" players and high level "normal" players in a couple years in the future.
Nobody streamed fast in the older days because no map required a fast stream speed
People learn to stream faster because of the faster tempo songs that are made in this day of age. That doesn't mean that it is a linear improvement.
People learn to stream faster because of the faster tempo songs that are made in this day of age. That doesn't mean that it is a linear improvement.
It's not linear, in fact I didn't even said it was linear, I did said that improvement had a limit, and the closer you get to that limit the less improvement you will see in an "x" period of time.buny wrote:
Nobody streamed fast in the older days because no map required a fast stream speed
People learn to stream faster because of the faster tempo songs that are made in this day of age. That doesn't mean that it is a linear improvement.
I think it's nurture
So I'm wrong.
So I'm wrong.
wat.
I am sexy and I think it's nature
So since obviously no one has hit their skill cap and all people have the same genetic starting point, does that mean I can be Einstein?
Brb I'll be Einsteining over here.
Edit: god writing on my phone takes so much time ;_;
Brb I'll be Einsteining over here.
Edit: god writing on my phone takes so much time ;_;
I can say that if there is a limit, we are not even close to it. Some people generally develop faster in these games than others, but I don't believe people who are determined and willed enough to improve to the current "top-level" can hit a point where there is nothing left they can do to improve. This is especially true when the "top level" bar gets higher and higher and people get better and better spite already being at the top. Sure it's not easy to become top level, but it's never impossible.
About the conversation you people had in the previous pages, I think it's pretty clear that streaming 300bpm with a keyboard is pretty much impossible for long periods of time.
I mean seriously
I mean seriously
I think ur stupid. I can stream 340bpm for at least 40 notes. I think it's both because I was born an idiot but I lift.thelewa wrote:
About the conversation you people had in the previous pages, I think it's pretty clear that streaming 300bpm with a keyboard is pretty much impossible for long periods of time.
I mean seriously
I have to change my views on this matter a bit.
Lifting does indeed help.
Lifting does indeed help.
Yes that is why we need to "both" option. This thread is biased in either direction like a compass.thelewa wrote:
I have to change my views on this matter a bit.
Lifting does indeed help.
It should actually be "nurturing your talent" instead of just "nurture" or "nature".
Theoretically, you could keep improving for ever, but you will never be able to surpass that skill cap, so it's like let's say, your skill cap is 3. at first you improve a lot, like you start with 0, then you improve 1.5, then 0.9, then 0.4, then 0.01, then 0.0001, you start improving less, because what you improve at first is the basics, how to jump, how to stream, then you improve large aspects of that, faster and more precise jumping, faster streaming, then you keep on improving on details, and then it's just polishing details, so improvement is less everytime, and you will never reach 3.Mithost wrote:
I can say that if there is a limit, we are not even close to it. Some people generally develop faster in these games than others, but I don't believe people who are determined and willed enough to improve to the current "top-level" can hit a point where there is nothing left they can do to improve. This is especially true when the "top level" bar gets higher and higher and people get better and better spite already being at the top. Sure it's not easy to become top level, but it's never impossible.
That's my thought about this.
Exactly what I think, thanks for putting words on this loldruidxd wrote:
Theoretically, you could keep improving for ever, but you will never be able to surpass that skill cap, so it's like let's say, your skill cap is 3. at first you improve a lot, like you start with 0, then you improve 1.5, then 0.9, then 0.4, then 0.01, then 0.0001, you start improving less, because what you improve at first is the basics, how to jump, how to stream, then you improve large aspects of that, faster and more precise jumping, faster streaming, then you keep on improving on details, and then it's just polishing details, so improvement is less everytime, and you will never reach 3.
That's my thought about this.
Skill cap is like Asymptote in math; you can improve forever, but you'll never reach that skill cap.
When you first start osu!, you do progress quickly, and in like 1-2 months for the common people you start FCing easier insanes without much problems, but over the time, even if you still doing progress, it become smaller and smaller.
Some people have the skill cap higher than others, that's unfair, but life is unfair.
I know I'll never be as good as the top players are, (mainly because of my carpal tunnel >.>) but it doesn't mean I'll never be good at this game.
1-2 months for easier insanes? i guess im not a common person
It's not like the progress become smaller, but the amount of effort needed to progress greatly increases. For example between passing some crazy song 95% and SSing (just compare rrtyu and cookie) is a huge skill difference and it's about equal to moving from [Easy] to those 95%. Same as leveling 100-101 > 1-100.GoldenWolf wrote:
but over the time, even if you still doing progress, it become smaller and smaller.
And of course we're somehow limited in Osu! because after all it's just a game about clicking circles and some of us might take it too serious (and that's logical with the amount of time we put into it). We can't dedicate all our lifes playing it, but it's not the reason to quit now. Life itself is pointless so just have fun while you can.
What ? I can jump to the moon if i train 100,000 years ? Oh wait, maybe i will live until 100 years old, or my bone break first. << Isn't this the limit ?. Sure you will learn something new, don't forget you will forget something. The skills you learned over time will also slowly be 'deleted' from your brain. So, if you improve slower den the deletion, it is limit right ?
You can't train to jump to the moon because you, in your current human body state, won't be able to reach the force needed to defeat gravity, also you will need a constant force that negates the gravitational acceleration and pushes you "up", there is no way that your body can provide such an amount of force for that, that's your limit, but you can train to jump higher or longer than other people, that's what some olympics games are about, pushing yourself to your physical limit.Maneuver wrote:
What ? I can jump to the moon if i train 100,000 years ? Oh wait, maybe i will live until 100 years old, or my bone break first. << Isn't this the limit ?. Sure you will learn something new, don't forget you will forget something. The skills you learned over time will also slowly be 'deleted' from your brain. So, if you improve slower den the deletion, it is limit right ?
Another example of nature over nurture is Usain Bolt, now that I think about it, his body is perfect for running, and because of that he gets a nature advantage over others in for example, the olympic games, and his advanteges didn't make a great difference until he had developed his skill high enough, reaching his physical limit, or skill cap.
The "forget" factor is something that happens, for example, players get used to playing AR10, then they don't play as good as they would expect on lower AR (9/8/7), but they can re-learn how to play on those AR's faster than they did learn it the first time, so it shouldn't be a limit.
Pretty sure this is possible at 1.1x
I've measured approximately how much time does it take for him to press 100 times a single key by that method, he started at 0:46, and ended at 0:53, that's 7 seconds, so:ziin wrote:
Pretty sure this is possible at 1.1x
In 7 seconds he pressed 100 times a single key
In 1 second he pressed X times a single key.
1x100 = 100
100/7 = X = 14,285 approx, we can say it's between 14 and 14,5 but not much more than that, just because youtube time system doesn't show miliseconds.
And he's doing that "shivering" method that I described earlier.
So he basically can do:
14,285 x 60 = 857
857 / 4 = 214,275 bpm 1/4ths stream by singletapping.
It's really fun to calculate all this
DeletedUser_910779
druidxd wrote:
I've measured approximately how much time does it take for him to press 100 times a single key by that method, he started at 0:46, and ended at 0:53, that's 7 seconds, so:
In 7 seconds he pressed 100 times a single key
In 1 second he pressed X times a single key.
1x100 = 100
100/7 = X = 14,285 approx, we can say it's between 14 and 14,5 but not much more than that, just because youtube time system doesn't show miliseconds.
And he's doing that "shivering" method that I described earlier.
So he basically can do:
14,285 x 60 = 857
857 / 4 = 214,275 bpm 1/4ths stream by singletapping.
It's really fun to calculate all this
lol, made my day.Soly wrote:
druidxd wrote:
I've measured approximately how much time does it take for him to press 100 times a single key by that method, he started at 0:46, and ended at 0:53, that's 7 seconds, so:
In 7 seconds he pressed 100 times a single key
In 1 second he pressed X times a single key.
1x100 = 100
100/7 = X = 14,285 approx, we can say it's between 14 and 14,5 but not much more than that, just because youtube time system doesn't show miliseconds.
And he's doing that "shivering" method that I described earlier.
So he basically can do:
14,285 x 60 = 857
857 / 4 = 214,275 bpm 1/4ths stream by singletapping.
It's really fun to calculate all this