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Nature or nurture?

posted
Total Posts
197

Is the abiliity to play osu! determined by nature or nurture?

Nature
72
46.75%
Nurture
82
53.25%
Total votes: 154
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druidxd
170 posts
Joined May 2011
druidxd

Aqo wrote:

If the world record is streaming 480bpm then we're still far off from being anywhere near the limit yo.
Come on guys step it up. Practice harder.
Do you even lift.
That's the world record of keystrokes per second on a SINGLE key, and that's probably done the same way we see people upload single tapping videos to youtube where they stream at about 180bpm/190bpm single tapping, they don't really press it the same way we do, they do something as "shivering" to achieve this. I doubt that people could "shiver" double tapping, too unlikely, and probably impossible, unless it's done with the taiko big circle method, but that means poor accuracy. So no, I don't think anyone would be able to stream 480bpm, probably 300-350bpm 1/4ths, but it's already really a lot, more than that's it's too unlikely.

But that's not the point, the point is that we could establish a skill limit or cap, so, nurturing will only make you achieve that skill cap, but, is it the same for everyone? I don't think so, the way I see it, talented people can achieve better results and have a higher skill cap, so in a way, once everyone is "done" practicing, the "high level play" would be determined by nature and genetics, keep in mind that it is a theoretically way of seeing this, you can always memorize a map by playing it a billion times and get a better score that someone that is better than you because of flashlight, but if we give a new "limit pusher" map to a talented player, and a normal player that achieve their skill cap then on it's first try, the talented one will theoretically speaking achieve better results/score.

MillhioreF wrote:

Well, that's not streaming 480bpm, that's singletapping 240 bpm. I can singletap 110 bpm for ages but can't stream 220 bpm for very long at all, so there's some difference.
Do you single tap 240bpm 1/4ths streams? (the math was done counting every note on a Xbpm 1/4ths stream)
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
You can't just double single tap speed and call it stream speed


Otherwise I'd be dt'ing chipscape
druidxd
170 posts
Joined May 2011
druidxd

buny wrote:

You can't just double single tap speed and call it stream speed


Otherwise I'd be dt'ing chipscape
I know, It was just a calculation done theoretically, there are other factors involved in osu!, pratically I would say that a stream "skill cap" would be around achieve 300-350bpm 1/4ths, talking about pro's.

What I did was a kind of "extrapolation".

It was done to clarify that there is a skill limit, and that players are getting closer and closer to that limit, probably the closer they get, the less they will improve on the same amount of time "x".
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

druidxd wrote:

I know, It was just a calculation done theoretically, there are other factors involved in osu!, pratically I would say that a stream "skill cap" would be around achieve 300-350bpm 1/4ths, talking about pro's.
You're just making up numbers and, had somebody made up those numbers with the same mindset you're using right now, 3 years ago, they'd come up with lower numbers.

Point is: nature doesn't limit you in any practical way. Maybe some cap exists somewhere but nobody can claim to be restricted by nature because so far there is not a single player anywhere close to a cap.
druidxd
170 posts
Joined May 2011
druidxd

Aqo wrote:

druidxd wrote:

I know, It was just a calculation done theoretically, there are other factors involved in osu!, pratically I would say that a stream "skill cap" would be around achieve 300-350bpm 1/4ths, talking about pro's.
You're just making up numbers and, had somebody made up those numbers with the same mindset you're using right now, 3 years ago, they'd come up with lower numbers.

Point is: nature doesn't limit you in any practical way. Maybe some cap exists somewhere but nobody can claim to be restricted by nature because so far there is not a single player anywhere close to a cap.
That IS true right now, but in a couple years it will be more evident that nature limits you, as you said, we will be impressed by people streaming 325bpm, and we would probably say that this was unthinkable 2 years in the past, probably cookiezi will still be a "god" of osu, but also probably other players will shine with their talent.

In fact, "natural talent" is everywhere, there are talented mathematicians, talented actors, why can't there be talented osu players? it's not that they were born to play osu, but they were born with better "things" like reflexes, control over their hands, focus, etcetera, just as talented mathematicians or talented chess players are more intelligent, they aren't born to play chess, but they have higher "intelligence" that makes them better at those things.

*Edit*: there would probably be a more clear line between high level "talented" players and high level "normal" players in a couple years in the future.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
Nobody streamed fast in the older days because no map required a fast stream speed



People learn to stream faster because of the faster tempo songs that are made in this day of age. That doesn't mean that it is a linear improvement.
druidxd
170 posts
Joined May 2011
druidxd

buny wrote:

Nobody streamed fast in the older days because no map required a fast stream speed



People learn to stream faster because of the faster tempo songs that are made in this day of age. That doesn't mean that it is a linear improvement.
It's not linear, in fact I didn't even said it was linear, I did said that improvement had a limit, and the closer you get to that limit the less improvement you will see in an "x" period of time.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
I think it's nurture

So I'm wrong.
Last edited by jesse1412 , edited 1 time in total.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
Jordan
1,037 posts
Joined December 2010
Jordan
wat.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
I am sexy and I think it's nature
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
So since obviously no one has hit their skill cap and all people have the same genetic starting point, does that mean I can be Einstein?

Brb I'll be Einsteining over here.

Edit: god writing on my phone takes so much time ;_;
Last edited by CXu , edited 1 time in total.
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos
I can say that if there is a limit, we are not even close to it. Some people generally develop faster in these games than others, but I don't believe people who are determined and willed enough to improve to the current "top-level" can hit a point where there is nothing left they can do to improve. This is especially true when the "top level" bar gets higher and higher and people get better and better spite already being at the top. Sure it's not easy to become top level, but it's never impossible.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
About the conversation you people had in the previous pages, I think it's pretty clear that streaming 300bpm with a keyboard is pretty much impossible for long periods of time.

I mean seriously
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

thelewa wrote:

About the conversation you people had in the previous pages, I think it's pretty clear that streaming 300bpm with a keyboard is pretty much impossible for long periods of time.

I mean seriously
I think ur stupid. I can stream 340bpm for at least 40 notes. I think it's both because I was born an idiot but I lift.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
I have to change my views on this matter a bit.

Lifting does indeed help.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

thelewa wrote:

I have to change my views on this matter a bit.

Lifting does indeed help.
Yes that is why we need to "both" option. This thread is biased in either direction like a compass.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
It should actually be "nurturing your talent" instead of just "nurture" or "nature".
druidxd
170 posts
Joined May 2011
druidxd

Mithost wrote:

I can say that if there is a limit, we are not even close to it. Some people generally develop faster in these games than others, but I don't believe people who are determined and willed enough to improve to the current "top-level" can hit a point where there is nothing left they can do to improve. This is especially true when the "top level" bar gets higher and higher and people get better and better spite already being at the top. Sure it's not easy to become top level, but it's never impossible.
Theoretically, you could keep improving for ever, but you will never be able to surpass that skill cap, so it's like let's say, your skill cap is 3. at first you improve a lot, like you start with 0, then you improve 1.5, then 0.9, then 0.4, then 0.01, then 0.0001, you start improving less, because what you improve at first is the basics, how to jump, how to stream, then you improve large aspects of that, faster and more precise jumping, faster streaming, then you keep on improving on details, and then it's just polishing details, so improvement is less everytime, and you will never reach 3.

That's my thought about this.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

druidxd wrote:

Theoretically, you could keep improving for ever, but you will never be able to surpass that skill cap, so it's like let's say, your skill cap is 3. at first you improve a lot, like you start with 0, then you improve 1.5, then 0.9, then 0.4, then 0.01, then 0.0001, you start improving less, because what you improve at first is the basics, how to jump, how to stream, then you improve large aspects of that, faster and more precise jumping, faster streaming, then you keep on improving on details, and then it's just polishing details, so improvement is less everytime, and you will never reach 3.

That's my thought about this.
Exactly what I think, thanks for putting words on this lol

Skill cap is like Asymptote in math; you can improve forever, but you'll never reach that skill cap.
When you first start osu!, you do progress quickly, and in like 1-2 months for the common people you start FCing easier insanes without much problems, but over the time, even if you still doing progress, it become smaller and smaller.
Some people have the skill cap higher than others, that's unfair, but life is unfair.

I know I'll never be as good as the top players are, (mainly because of my carpal tunnel >.>) but it doesn't mean I'll never be good at this game.
silmarilen
5,581 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
1-2 months for easier insanes? i guess im not a common person
enik
276 posts
Joined December 2011
enik

GoldenWolf wrote:

but over the time, even if you still doing progress, it become smaller and smaller.
It's not like the progress become smaller, but the amount of effort needed to progress greatly increases. For example between passing some crazy song 95% and SSing (just compare rrtyu and cookie) is a huge skill difference and it's about equal to moving from [Easy] to those 95%. Same as leveling 100-101 > 1-100.

And of course we're somehow limited in Osu! because after all it's just a game about clicking circles and some of us might take it too serious (and that's logical with the amount of time we put into it). We can't dedicate all our lifes playing it, but it's not the reason to quit now. Life itself is pointless so just have fun while you can.
Maneuver
112 posts
Joined October 2010
Maneuver
What ? I can jump to the moon if i train 100,000 years ? Oh wait, maybe i will live until 100 years old, or my bone break first. << Isn't this the limit ?. Sure you will learn something new, don't forget you will forget something. The skills you learned over time will also slowly be 'deleted' from your brain. So, if you improve slower den the deletion, it is limit right ?
druidxd
170 posts
Joined May 2011
druidxd

Maneuver wrote:

What ? I can jump to the moon if i train 100,000 years ? Oh wait, maybe i will live until 100 years old, or my bone break first. << Isn't this the limit ?. Sure you will learn something new, don't forget you will forget something. The skills you learned over time will also slowly be 'deleted' from your brain. So, if you improve slower den the deletion, it is limit right ?
You can't train to jump to the moon because you, in your current human body state, won't be able to reach the force needed to defeat gravity, also you will need a constant force that negates the gravitational acceleration and pushes you "up", there is no way that your body can provide such an amount of force for that, that's your limit, but you can train to jump higher or longer than other people, that's what some olympics games are about, pushing yourself to your physical limit.

Another example of nature over nurture is Usain Bolt, now that I think about it, his body is perfect for running, and because of that he gets a nature advantage over others in for example, the olympic games, and his advanteges didn't make a great difference until he had developed his skill high enough, reaching his physical limit, or skill cap.

The "forget" factor is something that happens, for example, players get used to playing AR10, then they don't play as good as they would expect on lower AR (9/8/7), but they can re-learn how to play on those AR's faster than they did learn it the first time, so it shouldn't be a limit.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Pretty sure this is possible at 1.1x
druidxd
170 posts
Joined May 2011
druidxd

ziin wrote:


Pretty sure this is possible at 1.1x
I've measured approximately how much time does it take for him to press 100 times a single key by that method, he started at 0:46, and ended at 0:53, that's 7 seconds, so:

In 7 seconds he pressed 100 times a single key
In 1 second he pressed X times a single key.

1x100 = 100
100/7 = X = 14,285 approx, we can say it's between 14 and 14,5 but not much more than that, just because youtube time system doesn't show miliseconds.

And he's doing that "shivering" method that I described earlier.

So he basically can do:

14,285 x 60 = 857
857 / 4 = 214,275 bpm 1/4ths stream by singletapping.

It's really fun to calculate all this :D
DeletedUser_910779
DeletedUser_910779

druidxd wrote:

I've measured approximately how much time does it take for him to press 100 times a single key by that method, he started at 0:46, and ended at 0:53, that's 7 seconds, so:

In 7 seconds he pressed 100 times a single key
In 1 second he pressed X times a single key.

1x100 = 100
100/7 = X = 14,285 approx, we can say it's between 14 and 14,5 but not much more than that, just because youtube time system doesn't show miliseconds.

And he's doing that "shivering" method that I described earlier.

So he basically can do:

14,285 x 60 = 857
857 / 4 = 214,275 bpm 1/4ths stream by singletapping.

It's really fun to calculate all this :D
druidxd
170 posts
Joined May 2011
druidxd

Soly wrote:

druidxd wrote:

I've measured approximately how much time does it take for him to press 100 times a single key by that method, he started at 0:46, and ended at 0:53, that's 7 seconds, so:

In 7 seconds he pressed 100 times a single key
In 1 second he pressed X times a single key.

1x100 = 100
100/7 = X = 14,285 approx, we can say it's between 14 and 14,5 but not much more than that, just because youtube time system doesn't show miliseconds.

And he's doing that "shivering" method that I described earlier.

So he basically can do:

14,285 x 60 = 857
857 / 4 = 214,275 bpm 1/4ths stream by singletapping.

It's really fun to calculate all this :D
lol, made my day.
JayO_old
5 posts
Joined December 2012
JayO_old
Question was about one's ability to play osu not be a god at osu... Anyone can do anything with practice even if limits are different. Nurture hands down.
druidxd
170 posts
Joined May 2011
druidxd

JayO wrote:

Question was about one's ability to play osu not be a god at osu... Anyone can do anything with practice even if limits are different. Nurture hands down.
No, it was to play osu! at high level

LaVolpe024 wrote:

This thread idea came to me because of thelewa and the Aqo kid having a squabble.

Many people genuinely believe that the ability to play osu! at a high level is a gift, not something that can be developed. They feel inclined to accept the idea that being a skilled player has more to do with genetics and raw talent than anything else. With this belief comes the notion that every player has a physical limit to their skill and capacity to play the game.

On the other hand there are players who believe that the skill can be developed through adequate practice and that it is not necessarily something you are born with. With this belief comes the notion that every player has a seemingly limitless capacity to play the game.

Nature or nurture? Discuss.
That last two things that I underlined was basically the big discussion that I had on this thread.

I consider high level play what others call "pro", so high level play would include players like Cookiezi, Niko, rrtyui, SapphireGhost, WhiteWolf, thelewa, and a lot of others high level players, excluding of course, most of us, average players.
Goodbye Shin
312 posts
Joined August 2012
Goodbye Shin

druidxd wrote:

excluding of course, most of us, average players.
And that is why we can only "discuss". You'll never be even close to understanding your limits, until you actually hit "dat top-lvl play". Which is close to impossible for most of players, cause they just don't lift train hard.

Aqo wrote:

No matter what you say, people haven't come close to limits yet.
Things that look impossible to you now will become standard once players who play seriously will play more and improve more.
Trying to blame your inability to do stuff on nature is basically looking for excuses to not having nurtured enough.
Wake up, dude. Not everyone blames nature for doing badly. Higher % of plays usually shows a high motivation to improve, it shows one's patience and will to progress faster than others. It might also show that you're a fking nerd and have lots of free time :D
JayO_old
5 posts
Joined December 2012
JayO_old

druidxd wrote:

JayO wrote:

Question was about one's ability to play osu not be a god at osu... Anyone can do anything with practice even if limits are different. Nurture hands down.
No, it was to play osu! at high level

LaVolpe024 wrote:

This thread idea came to me because of thelewa and the Aqo kid having a squabble.

Many people genuinely believe that the ability to play osu! at a high level is a gift, not something that can be developed. They feel inclined to accept the idea that being a skilled player has more to do with genetics and raw talent than anything else. With this belief comes the notion that every player has a physical limit to their skill and capacity to play the game.

On the other hand there are players who believe that the skill can be developed through adequate practice and that it is not necessarily something you are born with. With this belief comes the notion that every player has a seemingly limitless capacity to play the game.

Nature or nurture? Discuss.
Oh, my mistake didn't read it fully x.x Guess I would have to swing with nature then...
Maneuver
112 posts
Joined October 2010
Maneuver

druidxd wrote:

Another example of nature over nurture is Usain Bolt, now that I think about it, his body is perfect for running, and because of that he gets a nature advantage over others in for example, the olympic games, and his advanteges didn't make a great difference until he had developed his skill high enough, reaching his physical limit, or skill cap.
I remember watching national geographic (if not wrong on tv) about athlete and doing research on Usain Bolt (on genetic). The other world pro runner said: We can't seem to improve anymore on our speed. But man, look at Usain Bolt, he runs much faster than us and there is still much more room for improvement. (Something Close to this). The other runner also train like hell everyday but not even close to Usain. Nature wins.

That series also says, the genetic of athlete is becoming pro-er and pro-er over the decade. There is more and more equipment helping to train athlete but genetic is still the one calling the shot who will be better or not.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
So what's the point of this thread again?

There should be a both option.
JesusYamato
247 posts
Joined April 2012
JesusYamato
Your lifestyle, diet, physical activities outside of osu, your perception of the world, etc all influences the way you improve in osu!. It's not hereditary, it's physiology.
Some call it talents.

tl;dr: your past experience will influence the way you improve in osu, some call it talents.
Sorun
234 posts
Joined October 2010
Sorun

Maneuver wrote:

druidxd wrote:

Another example of nature over nurture is Usain Bolt, now that I think about it, his body is perfect for running, and because of that he gets a nature advantage over others in for example, the olympic games, and his advanteges didn't make a great difference until he had developed his skill high enough, reaching his physical limit, or skill cap.

I remember watching national geographic (if not wrong on tv) about athlete and doing research on Usain Bolt (on genetic). The other world pro runner said: We can't seem to improve anymore on our speed. But man, look at Usain Bolt, he runs much faster than us and there is still much more room for improvement. (Something Close to this). The other runner also train like hell everyday but not even close to Usain. Nature wins.

That series also says, the genetic of athlete is becoming pro-er and pro-er over the decade. There is more and more equipment helping to train athlete but genetic is still the one calling the shot who will be better or not.
Just adding on to what you said.

Usain Bolt probably has a genetic advantage of having more fast twitch muscle fibers, similar to Manny paquaio (sorry if I spelt that wrong). How else do you think that little guy can through such fast punches. Of course training is involved so both Nature and Nurture take part here, but just wanted to get my point across that genetics are critical.
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
I'd add a "Both" option to the poll, but apparently doing so would reset the votes already on it. Considering there's already over 100 votes, that doesn't exactly seem like a wise course of action!
Vish024
2,640 posts
Joined December 2010
Topic Starter
Vish024
This has already been settled. Yeah that'd be nice for a debate wouldn't it, if everybody just agreed with both sides.

LaVolpe024 wrote:

No sitting on the fence. If you feel both then decide which one is a greater factor in determining skill.
Also, please don't edit anything. I know you derive some strange form of pleasure out of having the rights to do that but please don't.
druidxd
170 posts
Joined May 2011
druidxd
The point is, training is crucial for developing to become a great player, but the best players, the highest level play will be defined by "genetic advantages", you can go closer to them, but if they keep on training you won't be able to achieve what they can, but you still can achieve awesome things.

So yes, high level play can be achieve by both nurture and nature (although being naturally good still requires you to practice), but the highest level play is defined by nature over nurture (knowing that practicing is still required).

*Edit*: I say this because high level play can be considered to, for example, include people that aren't as talented as the best players (Niko, Cookiezi, rrtyui), but still are at the top 1000 or 500 (like me for example, I guess I can be considered high level player for some people, or at least above average idk, although I don't consider myself a high level player)

My vote still goes to Nature
Last edited by druidxd , edited 2 times in total.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

LaVolpe024 wrote:

No sitting on the fence. If you feel both then decide which one is a greater factor in determining skill.
None of them are independent factors so my vote is for both.
Vish024
2,640 posts
Joined December 2010
Topic Starter
Vish024
Then which one would you say has a greater influence over the other?
Maneuver
112 posts
Joined October 2010
Maneuver

LaVolpe024 wrote:

Then which one would you say has a greater influence over the other?
Haha, greater influence is still nurture, because it is something we can control =S
she_old
she_old

Maneuver wrote:

LaVolpe024 wrote:

Then which one would you say has a greater influence over the other?
Haha, greater influence is still nurture, because it is something we can control =S
Unless you need little nurture to reach your nature's limit.
druidxd
170 posts
Joined May 2011
druidxd

she wrote:

Unless you need little nurture to reach your nature's limit.
You need a lot of practice to reach your limit, but nature still defines your limit. We still can achieve really high level play by practicing a lot, but the top will always be talented ones.
Maneuver
112 posts
Joined October 2010
Maneuver
I just tot of natural talent in nurturing.... wha........t ?
enik
276 posts
Joined December 2011
enik
"Nature" vote is exactly both. No one says you can achieve anything without practice even if you were born Cookiezi. "Nurture" vote implies there's no talent/genetic factor at all.
druidxd
170 posts
Joined May 2011
druidxd

enik wrote:

"Nature" vote is exactly both. No one says you can achieve anything without practice even if you were born Cookiezi. "Nurture" vote implies there's no talent/genetic factor at all.
^this
Vish024
2,640 posts
Joined December 2010
Topic Starter
Vish024
Seems like this thread died down as fast as it began. I'd like this locked please, *snap**snap* Millhiore.
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
I'm not sure I should just lock threads on request, but then again the discussion here HAS been going in circles for quite a while... might as well. Someone PM me if you have a good reason I should re-open this thread, and I will.
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