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Nature or nurture?

posted
Total Posts
197

Is the abiliity to play osu! determined by nature or nurture?

Nature
72
46.75%
Nurture
82
53.25%
Total votes: 154
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thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Aqo wrote:

thelewa wrote:

Middle School math isn't hard and everyone can do it. It's like [Normal] difficulties in osu!
I couldn't pass almost any [Normal]s when I started playing this game.

I also don't think you were born knowing the multiplication table or how to solve algebra equations.
WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT WHAT YOU CAN DO IN THE BEGINNING

THAT'S NOT THE POINT

The point is that some people improve faster than others. That's the "talent" part. Are you really this stupid or are you just pretending?
Kaona
494 posts
Joined August 2010
Kaona

Pettanko wrote:

It's just ten percent luck
Twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure
Fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name
/thread
Hika
1,553 posts
Joined February 2010
Hika

Pettanko wrote:

It's just ten percent luck
Twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure
Fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name
no

you learn how to do things, because when you were a baby, you totally weren't badass & walked out of your mom's womb
edit: with sunglasses 8-)
Last edited by Hika , edited 1 time in total.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

thelewa wrote:

The point is that some people improve faster than others. That's the "talent" part. Are you really this stupid or are you just pretending?
You're right. Still, this doesn't mean an untalented person cannot surpass a talented one with enough work. he/she just to work/practice even more
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

thelewa wrote:

WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT WHAT YOU CAN DO IN THE BEGINNING

THAT'S NOT THE POINT

The point is that some people improve faster than others. That's the "talent" part. Are you really this stupid or are you just pretending?
I think you're the one not getting the point here.

Walking in the path to get from the beginning to an end is something that takes some effort. While this level of effort might seem trivial to you since you had the patience for it, someone else might not have had the patience to walk it, and thus was still stuck in the beginning.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Zarerion wrote:

thelewa wrote:

The point is that some people improve faster than others. That's the "talent" part. Are you really this stupid or are you just pretending?
You're right. Still, this doesn't mean an untalented person cannot surpass a talented one with enough work. he/she just to work/practice even more
True, a talentless person can surpass a person with talent. But a talentless person CAN'T surpass a talented person who practices hard.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

thelewa wrote:

But a talentless person CAN'T surpass a talented person who practices hard.
This statement is the main reason I support nurture 100% even tho I do think deep down that there's some % spread between nature and nurture.
The more people are using a defeatist mentality, the less they are able to nurture themselves and have the patience to go far with it. You're basically giving up before trying.

and let me repeat:

Aqo wrote:

If anybody claims to have tried as hard as somebody else and has achieved worse results, then he simply overestimates how hard he tried and underestimates how hard the other person tried.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
So you're basically saying that there is some sort of talent, but you deny it to give people false hope?

Bastard.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
Is the abiliity to play osu! determined by nature or nurture?
If we talk about ability to play at high level, then nurture.

Even Cookiezi couldn't do the insane stuff he does now from the beginning, he had to practice a lot. BUT; less than other people for doing the same stuff.

As exemple, look at his playcount, it's around 3'000 plays per month. Now look at his playcount, he clearly have more patience and practiced more than cookiezi, and even if he's really good at this game, he's not even close to cookiezi's skill.
That proves that talent exist. All people are not equally good at everything. Some are better than other from the beginning, but you still have to practice for being good.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Playcount doesn't matter much because people would retry for whatever reason instead of play. It's not an accurate way of measuring how much a person spent on the game.
Also playcount is not always correct because people can spend time playing unranked maps which don't give playcount. I am such a person and my 15k~ playcount should be doubled to give a rough estimate of my real playcount (includes the spunout days too).
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

thelewa wrote:

So you're basically saying that there is some sort of talent, but you deny it to give people false hope?
I told you exactly what I think. That "talent" is synonymous to patience and if you don't just fool yourself to think you tried as hard as somebody else and instead ACTUALLY try as hard as they did, you'll get to the same point as them, and even pass them if you try harder.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
@lolcubes : That's true, but from what I could see by speccing both of them, my example is accurate enough :p
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
Nature because I naturally suck
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Kert
In my point of view every skill can be improved in this game
But yeah, it depends on how you are trying to improve
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

GoldenWolf wrote:

@lolcubes : That's true, but from what I could see by speccing both of them, my example is accurate enough :p
Don't forget that despite lower playcount, Cookiezi has more notes hits in his count, and they probably came from harder more spaced maps too, so it's not like Rizzo practiced harder and got less far; he actually did practice less overall, even if you ignore retries and unranked plays.
yoshh
6 posts
Joined September 2010
yoshh
Nature/Talent at the highest level of play 8-)
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

Aqo wrote:

GoldenWolf wrote:

@lolcubes : That's true, but from what I could see by speccing both of them, my example is accurate enough :p
Don't forget that despite lower playcount, Cookiezi has more notes hits in his count, and they probably came from harder more spaced maps too, so it's not like Rizzo practiced harder and got less far; he actually did practice less overall, even if you ignore retries and unranked plays.
Cookiezi has less total score than Rizzo (I mean, way less) and still has more total hits. How to explain that ? => Cookiezi retried more often at the beggining of a map than Rizzo. Rizzo played more the maps entierely, getting higher combo and so higher score, aka played more
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
You can also explain it like this:
Rizzo plays easy maps where he can get a high combo and thus high score, and he trains very slowly by doing so
Cookiezi plays maps that are very hard for him and where he can barely keep a consistent combo, and this pushes his limits harder
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
But actually, Cookiezi doesn't play maps that are very hard for him that often. He plays crazy AR9+DT maps, but even those aren't hard for him. He doesn't even like maps like Big Money. He likes maps that he can FC, and he has pretty much always played maps that he can FC.

That was solely based on just spectating him for 2 years
Last edited by thelewa , edited 1 time in total.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
Okay, let's take my exemple so :

I played maps that were hard and very hard for me, but I improved less than a friend who just played maps at his level (aka getting FC/SS in one try) and even if he's not playing that much (like 1 time per week or so) he's still better than me at many aspect of the game (consistency, streams, accu, jumps/aim, singletap).
The only thing I'm better than him is stamina.
I played like 40k plays (at least) if we count unranked maps, and 30k (maximum) for him.

By your theory I should be better than him, but it's not the case.

small edit : That's called "Talent". Some people are just better from the beginning and improves faster than others.
Saint_old
112 posts
Joined May 2012
Saint_old
I think there are some skill caps... but there's always room for improvement. I am a fast learner myself, but I don't think I could ever be as good as cookiezi or rrtyui or some other players. I don't know what to pick here.
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF

thelewa wrote:

He likes maps that he can FC, and he has pretty much always played maps that he can FC.
I'm surprised he played Shotgun Symphony+ so much then, most of the maps he can't FC he'll just get a really good score or even #1 on it and then just never play it again. This was the case with shotgun too, but it took waaaay more plays than most of the other scores he set did.
Farex_old
40 posts
Joined February 2011
Farex_old

jesus1412 wrote:

Cookiezi is nature. People with crazy as shit accuracy are nature. Everything else can be learnt.
she_old
she_old
Holy shit 5 pages already.

Anyway I think a bit of both, but mainly nature.
I have a lack of focus and am hyper, and whenever I see a lot of different things I get headaches.
This also applies irl when in big crowds, however not paying attention at all helps a lot.
I think I can use this as an excuse for being unable to read ar9 without hidden or below that.
Whenever I play easymod for like 10 songs I get those headaches again so I wonder if I'll manage on easymod one day.
There was a period where I tried training easymod a lot, but nothing good came out of it and the headaches didn't become less.

Regarding streams I used to lift for 6 years and think I got pretty quickly into streaming fast, however I've been doing hard high BPM spamming daily back then without injuring my hands or anything and I used to be fast and able to maintain long combos.
And as of now with quite some long break done and a some violent behavior done I find it hard to stream speeds nonstop, however I still manage to reach high speeds, I just can't maintain anything anymore.

Pretty much the reason why I chose for both.
Sorun
234 posts
Joined October 2010
Sorun
Genetic advantages are a fact of life.
hinaskye
19 posts
Joined October 2010
hinaskye
Well it is true some people have a better rhythm sense than others, but that doesnt mean the ones that don't can't FC a insane map, it just means they have better accuracy. Out of most of my friends, i prob have a better rhythm sense which may have came from playing other music games beforehand. I totally suck at streams but i feel im getting the hang of getting 300s short streams and still working on it.

In a general sense, i really believe to be a more higher skilled player, its all about practise and how much time they spend on osu!, although not eveyone will start off from the same level and grow at the same rate. I can't say anything about playing HR or DT on insane maps, cause at present that seems totally impossible to me, but i think i will get there eventually.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Sorun wrote:

Genetic advantages are a fact of life.
Apparently some people just don't want to accept it.
winber1
4,520 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1
both
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
To echo some sentiments said in this thread:

A normal person who tries hard can beat a talented person who doesn't.
A normal person absolutely cannot beat a talented person who tries their hardest.
At equal levels of effort and practice, a talented person will always beat a normal person.

This applies to both physical and mental capacities. Obviously, practice is required to get good at something (nurture), but a talented person can improve faster and reach a higher maximum potential (nature). Having one is better than having none, and having both is best. The only difference is that practice can be acquired at any time while talent can't.
she_old
she_old

buny wrote:

Nature because I naturally suck
ur bst pro <З33зЗ3ззЗЗ3ЗэЭэЭ

Pettanko wrote:

It's just ten percent luck
Twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure
Fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name
Read my mind. 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

hinaskye wrote:

Well it is true some people have a better rhythm sense than others, but that doesnt mean the ones that don't can't FC a insane map, it just means they have better accuracy. Out of most of my friends, i prob have a better rhythm sense which may have came from playing other music games beforehand. I totally suck at streams but i feel im getting the hang of getting 300s short streams and still working on it.

In a general sense, i really believe to be a more higher skilled player, its all about practise and how much time they spend on osu!, although not eveyone will start off from the same level and grow at the same rate. I can't say anything about playing HR or DT on insane maps, cause at present that seems totally impossible to me, but i think i will get there eventually.
But eventually being able to fc insanes with DT or HR or even both of the mods combined becomes worthless due to the need of accuracy, I can fc most insanes with hr and sometimes dt, but getting low accuracy like 85% makes it so inferior compared to a nomod SS.
Hika
1,553 posts
Joined February 2010
Hika
Just think of this as survival of the fittest.
we would die compared to top 100
gg no re
Goodbye Shin
312 posts
Joined August 2012
Goodbye Shin
I'd say Nature. Because talented people improve faster in many things (not just clicking circles). Of course, you'll need a TON of practice and patience to develop your talent, but the theory that EVERY person CAN achieve everything is wrong from the very beginning. It's an utopia, which has nothing to do with reality. A talented person which invests the same amount of time in practice will always end up higher than the less talented one. That's life.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
tru pros r ones touchd by loser and cookiezi
druidxd
170 posts
Joined May 2011
druidxd
Going for nature, I mean, yes you can improve by playing a lot, but some people have better reflexes (response time), some have better control over their body, better rhythm. Overall if a "talented" player plays exactly the same as a normal player, odds are that the talented one will be way better than the normal one, simply because he get better faster because he doesn't need to train his reflexes, rhythm, or get used to hovering for example as much as a normal player.

Both can be pro, but the talented one will probably be better if they both play the same amount of time/songs.
Mythras
255 posts
Joined February 2010
Mythras
osu! skill breakdown:

10% natural skill
10% settings/tweaks being optimal
80% practice (can compensate for lack of natural skill)

What puts cookiezi past WW and other top players? Probably the natural skill. Some people are born with more patience and the ability to focus harder. These people are usually asian. =P

I'll use myself as an example. At first I started playing osu! with my Korean friend, we both played a normal map till we passed it, took me like 100 tries, took him 30-35, it wasn't an easy normal (lol). We did lots of MP and I noticed him SSing some of our maps in the next week, I was like OMG YOU SS'd THAT! etc. Took me ages to SS anything (I got much better with practice though). He naturally just destroyed me in skill. But with a tremendous effort I got near his level but his accuracy is still crazy.

I also played with a Japanese friend, he was able to do things on flashlight with 1/10th the amount of tries as me with 5x the amount of plays.

For reference, I'm very good at FPS games, like instantly dominate games i've never played before, top frags etc, and my korean friend is amazing at puzzle games, rpgs, and fighting games. Japanese friend was okay at fps.

Thinking back, i've always been good at fps, and my friend has always been good at fighters, he probably had innate rhythm talent too.
Naikaze
2,401 posts
Joined July 2011
Naikaze

jesus1412 wrote:

Cookiezi is nature. People with crazy as shit accuracy are nature. Everything else can be learnt.

That's what I think.
^

I think it should be nature
Last edited by Naikaze , edited 1 time in total.
Soly
343 posts
Joined June 2011
Soly
Obviously it's all genetics and background. You just have to work with what you've got. There are different areas to excel at in osu:

- Snapping/movement/cursor dancing (in the end it doesn't matter how you move, but hey it adds your unique signature to your replays)
- Accuracy (getting that perfect hit within the millisecond)
- Focus (allowing your mind to focus solely on playing)
- Reading (confusing patterns and overlapping notes, fast or slow AR)
- Spinning (clockwise/anti clockwise, consistently under stressful areas of a map)
- Endurance (maintaining focus for extended periods, playing for several hours a day without getting bored)
- Stamina (how consistent you are under stressful play)
- Aim (tiny circles, difficult angles, wide distances)
- Reaction speed (how fast you respond to sudden activity, can be overcome with memory or predicting the next note(reading))
- Streaming (consistency, speed, alternating, single tapping)
- Memory (how fast you can memorize something in the least amount of plays possible, how many things stay permanently stored in your memory eg. a difficult section of a map)
- Adapting (to sudden changes, a new input device)

There are probably a few others aswell. Most likely how you first start playing the game has an effect on how you will turn out. Training may help with your weak areas, but you won't be better than somebody who excels in certain areas no matter how much you "nurture" it. Also your input device will obviously help with the physical side of things, I won't even go into how many areas there are regarding input device.

Then you've got things like posture, ergonomics EG (A player sitting up straight will do better than a player who is slouching). The way you grip your input device, height of the desk you play on. How far away you sit from the desk, Computers fps and specs, your monitors refresh rate, how tired you are. The length of your fingers (may affect streaming speed), whether you sweat alot (grip). What type of headphones you have. How well your right brain co-exists with your left brain during play (this will have an obvious affect on confusing stream notes such as dj pops streams) etc etc etc



tl;dr: Nature.
Antero
31 posts
Joined November 2012
Antero
Nature.

If it was nurture then many people would have outskilled cookiezi.

Cookiezi is "that special player". Every game has 1
xsrsbsns
1,936 posts
Joined July 2010
xsrsbsns
Nurture plays a huge role but nature will always be the limiting factor, always.
Maneuver
112 posts
Joined October 2010
Maneuver
Nurturing you nature skill, reaching nature skill limit.Then ? Transcending nature limit by tons of nurturing, just to get 0.01% more ? Don't know if there is someone has just only discovered new innert nature on very late stages, or altered or created new nature.
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