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Nature or nurture?

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197

Is the abiliity to play osu! determined by nature or nurture?

Nature
72
46.75%
Nurture
82
53.25%
Total votes: 154
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Tanzklaue

Pettanko wrote:

There is no "talented" person in the world who got to where he/she is simply by being born that way.
nobody said that. what we're saying is that a talented person has to üut much less effort into getting a master of something than an untalented person.
Hika
Truthfully, only some things are easier for people if they're born with it. I agree with nurture being a big part but at the same time, you have to have the mental capabilities to play & improve because simply getting mad at the world that you're not good enough isn't going to change anything (this is being considered as 'nature'). Sure, I can't stream slow but if I actually practiced, maybe I could do it.

I can't seem to pick which one is more important but now I'm going to have to side with nurture.
thelewa

Aqo wrote:

thelewa wrote:

Mastering just one of those things takes a lifetime for a normal person.
because a normal person does it 2 hours per week and not 12 hours every day
12 hours a day. Bullshit. You seriously live in some sort of weird fantasy world where you believe that everything is dictated by shounen anime logic.

Grow up.

since you edited your post, I'm editing mine. Your example of 2 people studying the same subject for 8 hours excludes one scenario. What if both people study for 8 hours in the exact same way? Will they be just as good as each other? The answer is: no.

That is because people are different.
Aqo

thelewa wrote:

since you edited your post, I'm editing mine. Your example of 2 people studying the same subject for 8 hours excludes one scenario. What if both people study for 8 hours in the exact same way? Will they be just as good as each other?
During Highschool I had a side job as a private maths teacher for kids at middle school who had terrible grades. a few were even diagnosed with stuff like ADD or other "reasons" that they can't perform well.

You know what I learned in that time?
That those are not "reasons", they're fucking excuses for lazy people. I managed to bring their grades up by simply making them care more about getting good grades and giving them motivation to actually invest more time in it.

YES I do believe people achieve the same results as others if they really try equally hard. I have multiple life experiences that prove it. If anybody claims to have tried as hard as somebody else and has achieved worse results, then he simply overestimates how hard he tried and underestimates how hard the other person tried.

and my edits are mostly fixing typos after re-reading the post.

and YES people are different, not everybody is the same; but the little differences like the color of your eyes or your skin won't make you better at clicking on circles.
Tanzklaue

Aqo wrote:

thelewa wrote:

Mastering just one of those things takes a lifetime for a normal person.
because a normal person does it 2 hours per week and not 12 hours every day

~two people are studying maths for 8 hours.
one of them stares at the study book a little, gets bored, goes watch some tv instead, play around, call some friends and talk around, in the end barely using this time effectively.
the other person takes the patience to study and ONLY focus on studying, and take very little breaks, trying to aim for his goal of getting it asap.

they both studied for "the same amount of time" but one of them got way better at it. Was he more talented due to some birthright? Hell no, the dude just hard the patience to work his ass off to reap the rewards of his hard work later.
it's funny, I never really studied math, and I mean never, and I'm tons better than many others who study all day long.

guess I'm a black magician then.
SteRRuM
Nurture all the way.
thelewa
Middle School math isn't hard and everyone can do it. It's like [Normal] difficulties in osu!
XPJ38
Nature. Otherwise I would already be able to easily stream more than 180 BPM :(
Zare
I think, everyone CAN achieve pretty much everything and can get at good as osu! as they want.
Therefore, I DO believe that EVERY person can, IN THEORY, surpass Cookiezi.
In praxis, that won't happen too soon. Because Cookiezi is the most talented person. Therefore, in order to get to his skill level, he didn't need as many plays, he didn't need as many years of practice as other people would.

The more talented you are, the less you have to practice to achieve a goal. Everyone can stream 250 BPM or higher. But some people will need twice as much plays than others to do so. If you're an untalented person, you need to practice more than a talented one.
Still, if you have enough patience and enough will power (and enough time, since you'll have to spent a lot of it), you can be better than a talented person as an untalented.

voted nurture
Tanzklaue

thelewa wrote:

Middle School math isn't hard and everyone can do it. It's like [Normal] difficulties in osu!
if you look around, then you will see that not everyone can.
Kanye West
20% nature, 80% nurture
Aqo

thelewa wrote:

Middle School math isn't hard and everyone can do it. It's like [Normal] difficulties in osu!
I couldn't pass almost any [Normal]s when I started playing this game.

I also don't think you were born knowing the multiplication table or how to solve algebra equations.
Tanzklaue

Aqo wrote:

thelewa wrote:

Middle School math isn't hard and everyone can do it. It's like [Normal] difficulties in osu!
I couldn't pass almost any [Normal]s when I started playing this game.

I also don't think you were born knowing the multiplication table or how to solve algebra equations.
no, but I heard it one time and then knew how it worked. others don't understand it after the 100th time you explain it to them.
Pettanko
It's just ten percent luck
Twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure
Fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name
thelewa

Aqo wrote:

thelewa wrote:

Middle School math isn't hard and everyone can do it. It's like [Normal] difficulties in osu!
I couldn't pass almost any [Normal]s when I started playing this game.

I also don't think you were born knowing the multiplication table or how to solve algebra equations.
WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT WHAT YOU CAN DO IN THE BEGINNING

THAT'S NOT THE POINT

The point is that some people improve faster than others. That's the "talent" part. Are you really this stupid or are you just pretending?
Kaona

Pettanko wrote:

It's just ten percent luck
Twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure
Fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name
/thread
Hika

Pettanko wrote:

It's just ten percent luck
Twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure
Fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name
no

you learn how to do things, because when you were a baby, you totally weren't badass & walked out of your mom's womb
edit: with sunglasses 8-)
Zare

thelewa wrote:

The point is that some people improve faster than others. That's the "talent" part. Are you really this stupid or are you just pretending?
You're right. Still, this doesn't mean an untalented person cannot surpass a talented one with enough work. he/she just to work/practice even more
Aqo

thelewa wrote:

WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT WHAT YOU CAN DO IN THE BEGINNING

THAT'S NOT THE POINT

The point is that some people improve faster than others. That's the "talent" part. Are you really this stupid or are you just pretending?
I think you're the one not getting the point here.

Walking in the path to get from the beginning to an end is something that takes some effort. While this level of effort might seem trivial to you since you had the patience for it, someone else might not have had the patience to walk it, and thus was still stuck in the beginning.
thelewa

Zarerion wrote:

thelewa wrote:

The point is that some people improve faster than others. That's the "talent" part. Are you really this stupid or are you just pretending?
You're right. Still, this doesn't mean an untalented person cannot surpass a talented one with enough work. he/she just to work/practice even more
True, a talentless person can surpass a person with talent. But a talentless person CAN'T surpass a talented person who practices hard.
Aqo

thelewa wrote:

But a talentless person CAN'T surpass a talented person who practices hard.
This statement is the main reason I support nurture 100% even tho I do think deep down that there's some % spread between nature and nurture.
The more people are using a defeatist mentality, the less they are able to nurture themselves and have the patience to go far with it. You're basically giving up before trying.

and let me repeat:

Aqo wrote:

If anybody claims to have tried as hard as somebody else and has achieved worse results, then he simply overestimates how hard he tried and underestimates how hard the other person tried.
thelewa
So you're basically saying that there is some sort of talent, but you deny it to give people false hope?

Bastard.
GoldenWolf
Is the abiliity to play osu! determined by nature or nurture?
If we talk about ability to play at high level, then nurture.

Even Cookiezi couldn't do the insane stuff he does now from the beginning, he had to practice a lot. BUT; less than other people for doing the same stuff.

As exemple, look at his playcount, it's around 3'000 plays per month. Now look at his playcount, he clearly have more patience and practiced more than cookiezi, and even if he's really good at this game, he's not even close to cookiezi's skill.
That proves that talent exist. All people are not equally good at everything. Some are better than other from the beginning, but you still have to practice for being good.
lolcubes
Playcount doesn't matter much because people would retry for whatever reason instead of play. It's not an accurate way of measuring how much a person spent on the game.
Also playcount is not always correct because people can spend time playing unranked maps which don't give playcount. I am such a person and my 15k~ playcount should be doubled to give a rough estimate of my real playcount (includes the spunout days too).
Aqo

thelewa wrote:

So you're basically saying that there is some sort of talent, but you deny it to give people false hope?
I told you exactly what I think. That "talent" is synonymous to patience and if you don't just fool yourself to think you tried as hard as somebody else and instead ACTUALLY try as hard as they did, you'll get to the same point as them, and even pass them if you try harder.
GoldenWolf
@lolcubes : That's true, but from what I could see by speccing both of them, my example is accurate enough :p
buny
Nature because I naturally suck
Kert
In my point of view every skill can be improved in this game
But yeah, it depends on how you are trying to improve
Aqo

GoldenWolf wrote:

@lolcubes : That's true, but from what I could see by speccing both of them, my example is accurate enough :p
Don't forget that despite lower playcount, Cookiezi has more notes hits in his count, and they probably came from harder more spaced maps too, so it's not like Rizzo practiced harder and got less far; he actually did practice less overall, even if you ignore retries and unranked plays.
yoshh
Nature/Talent at the highest level of play 8-)
GoldenWolf

Aqo wrote:

GoldenWolf wrote:

@lolcubes : That's true, but from what I could see by speccing both of them, my example is accurate enough :p
Don't forget that despite lower playcount, Cookiezi has more notes hits in his count, and they probably came from harder more spaced maps too, so it's not like Rizzo practiced harder and got less far; he actually did practice less overall, even if you ignore retries and unranked plays.
Cookiezi has less total score than Rizzo (I mean, way less) and still has more total hits. How to explain that ? => Cookiezi retried more often at the beggining of a map than Rizzo. Rizzo played more the maps entierely, getting higher combo and so higher score, aka played more
Aqo
You can also explain it like this:
Rizzo plays easy maps where he can get a high combo and thus high score, and he trains very slowly by doing so
Cookiezi plays maps that are very hard for him and where he can barely keep a consistent combo, and this pushes his limits harder
thelewa
But actually, Cookiezi doesn't play maps that are very hard for him that often. He plays crazy AR9+DT maps, but even those aren't hard for him. He doesn't even like maps like Big Money. He likes maps that he can FC, and he has pretty much always played maps that he can FC.

That was solely based on just spectating him for 2 years
GoldenWolf
Okay, let's take my exemple so :

I played maps that were hard and very hard for me, but I improved less than a friend who just played maps at his level (aka getting FC/SS in one try) and even if he's not playing that much (like 1 time per week or so) he's still better than me at many aspect of the game (consistency, streams, accu, jumps/aim, singletap).
The only thing I'm better than him is stamina.
I played like 40k plays (at least) if we count unranked maps, and 30k (maximum) for him.

By your theory I should be better than him, but it's not the case.

small edit : That's called "Talent". Some people are just better from the beginning and improves faster than others.
Saint_old
I think there are some skill caps... but there's always room for improvement. I am a fast learner myself, but I don't think I could ever be as good as cookiezi or rrtyui or some other players. I don't know what to pick here.
MillhioreF

thelewa wrote:

He likes maps that he can FC, and he has pretty much always played maps that he can FC.
I'm surprised he played Shotgun Symphony+ so much then, most of the maps he can't FC he'll just get a really good score or even #1 on it and then just never play it again. This was the case with shotgun too, but it took waaaay more plays than most of the other scores he set did.
Farex_old

jesus1412 wrote:

Cookiezi is nature. People with crazy as shit accuracy are nature. Everything else can be learnt.
she_old
Holy shit 5 pages already.

Anyway I think a bit of both, but mainly nature.
I have a lack of focus and am hyper, and whenever I see a lot of different things I get headaches.
This also applies irl when in big crowds, however not paying attention at all helps a lot.
I think I can use this as an excuse for being unable to read ar9 without hidden or below that.
Whenever I play easymod for like 10 songs I get those headaches again so I wonder if I'll manage on easymod one day.
There was a period where I tried training easymod a lot, but nothing good came out of it and the headaches didn't become less.

Regarding streams I used to lift for 6 years and think I got pretty quickly into streaming fast, however I've been doing hard high BPM spamming daily back then without injuring my hands or anything and I used to be fast and able to maintain long combos.
And as of now with quite some long break done and a some violent behavior done I find it hard to stream speeds nonstop, however I still manage to reach high speeds, I just can't maintain anything anymore.

Pretty much the reason why I chose for both.
Sorun
Genetic advantages are a fact of life.
hinaskye
Well it is true some people have a better rhythm sense than others, but that doesnt mean the ones that don't can't FC a insane map, it just means they have better accuracy. Out of most of my friends, i prob have a better rhythm sense which may have came from playing other music games beforehand. I totally suck at streams but i feel im getting the hang of getting 300s short streams and still working on it.

In a general sense, i really believe to be a more higher skilled player, its all about practise and how much time they spend on osu!, although not eveyone will start off from the same level and grow at the same rate. I can't say anything about playing HR or DT on insane maps, cause at present that seems totally impossible to me, but i think i will get there eventually.
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