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Nature or nurture?

posted
Total Posts
197

Is the abiliity to play osu! determined by nature or nurture?

Nature
72
46.75%
Nurture
82
53.25%
Total votes: 154
Vish024
2,640 posts
Joined December 2010
Topic Starter
Vish024
This thread idea came to me because of thelewa and the Aqo kid having a squabble.

Many people genuinely believe that the ability to play osu! at a high level is a gift, not something that can be developed. They feel inclined to accept the idea that being a skilled player has more to do with genetics and raw talent than anything else. With this belief comes the notion that every player has a physical limit to their skill and capacity to play the game.

On the other hand there are players who believe that the skill can be developed through adequate practice and that it is not necessarily something you are born with. With this belief comes the notion that every player has a seemingly limitless capacity to play the game.

Nature or nurture? Discuss.
Last edited by Vish024 , edited 1 time in total.
Hika
1,553 posts
Joined February 2010
Hika
I think this game calls for nature because not all the time is practicing going to help you stream a lot faster or have faster reflexes.

I'm just going to wait until someone tries to change my opinion on things in order for me to continue.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
Nature

because I have had amazing rhythm talent ever since I was born, same as my father. My accuracy is good because of said talent, and accuracy is a part of this game so this way I can prove that some form of born talent made me better at the game.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
Cookiezi is nature. People with crazy as shit accuracy are nature. Everything else can be learnt.

That's what I think.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
When I started playing this game

- AR7 looked too fast
- 160bpm streams were like impossible due to too high speed

I did not improve in any of those aspect due to some magical fairy dust. I practiced a fuck ton for it.

There are people that I've been spectating for over 4 months now. Their skill levels and abilities have improved drastically over time. Maps they used to say that are "impossible" are now their normal play level.

I don't know of a single person who was good at this game from the start. Everybody had different starting points, due to previous experiences in videogames and other factors, but in the end how far you got from that starting point depended solely on how much each person was willing to invest into practicing.

People say Cookiezi was good from the start. What a load of nonsense. Maybe he had a higher starting point than others since he plays videogames a lot (he clearly plays more videogames competitively than just osu) but wherever he got with this was gained with practice.

Is there anybody in here who can seriously say that there's anything they're good at, and it's not a thing they've done A TON by now?
You get better at things by doing them - i.e. practicing. Nobody is born good at clicking on circles.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
nature means you get really good really fast. and I think for most people there are barriers they simply can't overcome no matter how hard they try. but also I think most people are not even close to pushing their limits.

though having the potential to be as good as cookiezi is unlikely, I think most people could be really damn good if they had the motivation to do it.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
In response to that -
how fast you improve depends on how you train. Mentally as well.
Two people can play for the same amount of time, but one of them will try to get really good at accuracy and another one will try to get really good at aim. In the end, each one will be good at the thing he chose to invest in.
You don't improve faster than somebody else thanks to black magic. You improve by trying to improve, and by doing the things that are needed to improve while trying to.

I still think the best advice I ever heard from anyone for how to get better is from Niko, which was "play more".
Yuzeyun
7,622 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
When I first joined osu!, I had 5 years of StepMania behind me, that's where comes from my insane accuracy on some maps.
Else was just learning. Before Feb. 2011, I couldn't FC a single Taiko Oni. Now, I can FC almost all the maps that are at least good with DT and sometimes HR.

Don't tell me this is nature, I can play up to 270 BPM. 8 months ago, I couldn't do 225.
Last edited by Yuzeyun , edited 1 time in total.
Vish024
2,640 posts
Joined December 2010
Topic Starter
Vish024
Well it had to be done. Re-voting allowed for people who may change their minds, seeing as this is a debate.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
biology is black magic
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Aqo wrote:

In response to that -
how fast you improve depends on how you train. Mentally as well.
Two people can play for the same amount of time, but one of them will try to get really good at accuracy and another one will try to get really good at aim. In the end, each one will be good at the thing he chose to invest in.
You don't improve faster than somebody else thanks to black magic. You improve by trying to improve, and by doing the things that are needed to improve while trying to.

I still think the best advice I ever heard from anyone for how to get better is from Niko, which was "play more".
there is a talent factor, it is always there, some people are better at doing certain things than others, they have to work much less to get good at what they have a talent for.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

LaVolpe024 wrote:

Well it had to be done. Re-voting allowed for people who may change their minds, seeing as this is a debate.
Where is the both option?
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
the thing you call "talent" is really just "patience".

People who have the patience to sit down and really invest in training improve a lot faster than people who get bored and frustrated by it. This is just a mental thing that's related to how you set goals for yourself. Talent is just patience.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
It seems that Aqo has misunderstood the meaning of "talent". "talent" is not something that will make you automatically good at something. It means that you will grasp it better, improve faster and that your skill wall is higher than other people.

Now Aqo says that practice is the key to everything, but what about people like Leonardo Da Vinci? The motherfucker knew how to paint masterpieces with very little training. He didn't even paint that much (in comparison to other people). That is what "talent" is. That is what "nature" is in this context.
Last edited by thelewa , edited 1 time in total.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Nurture imo.

Tanzklaue wrote:

nature means you get really good really fast.
^I think the same. It all comes down to dedication and how good your ability to learn fast actually is. And I am not talking about studying, I am talking about mastering the control over your body.

It's probably that both are connected though, and required to make an insanely good player such as Cookiezi, cause nobody is that close to him in skill (inb4 skill debate).
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Aqo wrote:

the thing you call "talent" is really just "patience".

People who have the patience to sit down and really invest in training improve a lot faster than people who get bored and frustrated by it. This is just a mental thing that's related to how you set goals for yourself. Talent is just patience.
the thing I call talent is the reason I can easily do math equations and science stuff others can't even grasp. the thing called talent is the reason why some people are really good with just a playcount of 14k, while others are still struggling to pass insanes with a 25k playcount.

you can't deny the existence of talent.
Vish024
2,640 posts
Joined December 2010
Topic Starter
Vish024

jesus1412 wrote:

LaVolpe024 wrote:

Well it had to be done. Re-voting allowed for people who may change their minds, seeing as this is a debate.
Where is the both option?
No sitting on the fence. If you feel both then decide which one is a greater factor in determining skill.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

thelewa wrote:

Now Aqo says that practice is the key to everything, but what about people like Leonardo Da Vinci? The motherfucker knew how to paint masterpieces with very little training. He didn't even paint that much (in comparison to other people). That is what "talent" is. That is what "nature" is in this context.
what are you serious

da vinci was famous for doing a TON of things, not only drawing. he was clearly a person who enjoyed this stuff and was doing it 24/7. he wasn't "good from the start". he was good because he did it like 100x more than others.
Last edited by Aqo , edited 1 time in total.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
are you serious

you obviously don't know anything about the guy and only said that because it fits the view that you're defending
Kaona
494 posts
Joined August 2010
Kaona
I think that you can get better at osu! by practicing - by a massive amount, in fact. Practice is key to achieving.

However, without some sort of talent (nature) behind that there is only such an amount of progress you can make. I can't see anybody beating Cookiezi by sheer practice and I don't believe that Cookiezi was born without a talent for this game of clicking circles.

So I chose nature.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_da_Vinci

painter, sculptor, architect, musician, scientist, mathematician, engineer, inventor, anatomist, geologist, cartographer, botanist, and writer

this guy wasn't born good at this shit. he fucking loved it and did it all day
Last edited by Aqo , edited 1 time in total.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Aqo wrote:

what are you serious

da vinci was famous for doing a TON of things, not only drawing. he was clearly a person who enjoyed this and was doing this 24/7. he wasn't "good from the start". he was good because he did it like 100x more than others.
mozart was one of the greatest pianists of his time. at the age of five.
I wonder how much practice he could put into pianoplaying during that time
silmarilen
5,581 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
there may be some things which are determined by nature, but in the end i think 90% is nurture, you can train your fingers/arm to become faster, you can train your reflexes, you can train your accuracy.
i pick nurture
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Aqo wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_da_Vinci

painter, sculptor, architect, musician, scientist, mathematician, engineer, inventor, anatomist, geologist, cartographer, botanist, and writer

this guy wasn't born good at this shit. he fucking loved it and did it all day
Are you saying that he seriously had the time to MASTER all of those things

Mastering just one of those things takes a lifetime for a normal person.
Pettanko
246 posts
Joined September 2012
Pettanko
There is no "talented" person in the world who got to where he/she is simply by being born that way. Prodigies get a huge head start because of genetics, but even then they still need to practice.
Last edited by Pettanko , edited 1 time in total.
creampuff
438 posts
Joined August 2012
creampuff
im going to have to go for nurture on this one
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

thelewa wrote:

Mastering just one of those things takes a lifetime for a normal person.
because a normal person does it 2 hours per week and not 12 hours every day

~two people are studying maths for 8 hours.
one of them stares at the study book a little, gets bored, goes watch some tv instead, play around, call some friends and talk around, in the end barely using this time effectively.
the other person takes the patience to study and ONLY focus on studying, and take very little breaks, trying to aim for his goal of getting it asap.

they both studied for "the same amount of time" but one of them got way better at it. Was he more talented due to some birthright? Hell no, the dude just hard the patience to work his ass off to reap the rewards of his hard work later.
Last edited by Aqo , edited 3 times in total.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Pettanko wrote:

There is no "talented" person in the world who got to where he/she is simply by being born that way.
nobody said that. what we're saying is that a talented person has to üut much less effort into getting a master of something than an untalented person.
Hika
1,553 posts
Joined February 2010
Hika
Truthfully, only some things are easier for people if they're born with it. I agree with nurture being a big part but at the same time, you have to have the mental capabilities to play & improve because simply getting mad at the world that you're not good enough isn't going to change anything (this is being considered as 'nature'). Sure, I can't stream slow but if I actually practiced, maybe I could do it.

I can't seem to pick which one is more important but now I'm going to have to side with nurture.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Aqo wrote:

thelewa wrote:

Mastering just one of those things takes a lifetime for a normal person.
because a normal person does it 2 hours per week and not 12 hours every day
12 hours a day. Bullshit. You seriously live in some sort of weird fantasy world where you believe that everything is dictated by shounen anime logic.

Grow up.

since you edited your post, I'm editing mine. Your example of 2 people studying the same subject for 8 hours excludes one scenario. What if both people study for 8 hours in the exact same way? Will they be just as good as each other? The answer is: no.

That is because people are different.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

thelewa wrote:

since you edited your post, I'm editing mine. Your example of 2 people studying the same subject for 8 hours excludes one scenario. What if both people study for 8 hours in the exact same way? Will they be just as good as each other?
During Highschool I had a side job as a private maths teacher for kids at middle school who had terrible grades. a few were even diagnosed with stuff like ADD or other "reasons" that they can't perform well.

You know what I learned in that time?
That those are not "reasons", they're fucking excuses for lazy people. I managed to bring their grades up by simply making them care more about getting good grades and giving them motivation to actually invest more time in it.

YES I do believe people achieve the same results as others if they really try equally hard. I have multiple life experiences that prove it. If anybody claims to have tried as hard as somebody else and has achieved worse results, then he simply overestimates how hard he tried and underestimates how hard the other person tried.

and my edits are mostly fixing typos after re-reading the post.

and YES people are different, not everybody is the same; but the little differences like the color of your eyes or your skin won't make you better at clicking on circles.
Last edited by Aqo , edited 1 time in total.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Aqo wrote:

thelewa wrote:

Mastering just one of those things takes a lifetime for a normal person.
because a normal person does it 2 hours per week and not 12 hours every day

~two people are studying maths for 8 hours.
one of them stares at the study book a little, gets bored, goes watch some tv instead, play around, call some friends and talk around, in the end barely using this time effectively.
the other person takes the patience to study and ONLY focus on studying, and take very little breaks, trying to aim for his goal of getting it asap.

they both studied for "the same amount of time" but one of them got way better at it. Was he more talented due to some birthright? Hell no, the dude just hard the patience to work his ass off to reap the rewards of his hard work later.
it's funny, I never really studied math, and I mean never, and I'm tons better than many others who study all day long.

guess I'm a black magician then.
SteRRuM
678 posts
Joined October 2008
SteRRuM
Nurture all the way.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
Middle School math isn't hard and everyone can do it. It's like [Normal] difficulties in osu!
XPJ38
osu! Alumni
3,570 posts
Joined February 2010
XPJ38
Nature. Otherwise I would already be able to easily stream more than 180 BPM :(
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
I think, everyone CAN achieve pretty much everything and can get at good as osu! as they want.
Therefore, I DO believe that EVERY person can, IN THEORY, surpass Cookiezi.
In praxis, that won't happen too soon. Because Cookiezi is the most talented person. Therefore, in order to get to his skill level, he didn't need as many plays, he didn't need as many years of practice as other people would.

The more talented you are, the less you have to practice to achieve a goal. Everyone can stream 250 BPM or higher. But some people will need twice as much plays than others to do so. If you're an untalented person, you need to practice more than a talented one.
Still, if you have enough patience and enough will power (and enough time, since you'll have to spent a lot of it), you can be better than a talented person as an untalented.

voted nurture
Last edited by Zare , edited 1 time in total.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

thelewa wrote:

Middle School math isn't hard and everyone can do it. It's like [Normal] difficulties in osu!
if you look around, then you will see that not everyone can.
Kanye West
2,222 posts
Joined July 2011
Kanye West
20% nature, 80% nurture
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

thelewa wrote:

Middle School math isn't hard and everyone can do it. It's like [Normal] difficulties in osu!
I couldn't pass almost any [Normal]s when I started playing this game.

I also don't think you were born knowing the multiplication table or how to solve algebra equations.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Aqo wrote:

thelewa wrote:

Middle School math isn't hard and everyone can do it. It's like [Normal] difficulties in osu!
I couldn't pass almost any [Normal]s when I started playing this game.

I also don't think you were born knowing the multiplication table or how to solve algebra equations.
no, but I heard it one time and then knew how it worked. others don't understand it after the 100th time you explain it to them.
Pettanko
246 posts
Joined September 2012
Pettanko
It's just ten percent luck
Twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure
Fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Aqo wrote:

thelewa wrote:

Middle School math isn't hard and everyone can do it. It's like [Normal] difficulties in osu!
I couldn't pass almost any [Normal]s when I started playing this game.

I also don't think you were born knowing the multiplication table or how to solve algebra equations.
WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT WHAT YOU CAN DO IN THE BEGINNING

THAT'S NOT THE POINT

The point is that some people improve faster than others. That's the "talent" part. Are you really this stupid or are you just pretending?
Kaona
494 posts
Joined August 2010
Kaona

Pettanko wrote:

It's just ten percent luck
Twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure
Fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name
/thread
Hika
1,553 posts
Joined February 2010
Hika

Pettanko wrote:

It's just ten percent luck
Twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure
Fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name
no

you learn how to do things, because when you were a baby, you totally weren't badass & walked out of your mom's womb
edit: with sunglasses 8-)
Last edited by Hika , edited 1 time in total.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

thelewa wrote:

The point is that some people improve faster than others. That's the "talent" part. Are you really this stupid or are you just pretending?
You're right. Still, this doesn't mean an untalented person cannot surpass a talented one with enough work. he/she just to work/practice even more
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

thelewa wrote:

WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT WHAT YOU CAN DO IN THE BEGINNING

THAT'S NOT THE POINT

The point is that some people improve faster than others. That's the "talent" part. Are you really this stupid or are you just pretending?
I think you're the one not getting the point here.

Walking in the path to get from the beginning to an end is something that takes some effort. While this level of effort might seem trivial to you since you had the patience for it, someone else might not have had the patience to walk it, and thus was still stuck in the beginning.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Zarerion wrote:

thelewa wrote:

The point is that some people improve faster than others. That's the "talent" part. Are you really this stupid or are you just pretending?
You're right. Still, this doesn't mean an untalented person cannot surpass a talented one with enough work. he/she just to work/practice even more
True, a talentless person can surpass a person with talent. But a talentless person CAN'T surpass a talented person who practices hard.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

thelewa wrote:

But a talentless person CAN'T surpass a talented person who practices hard.
This statement is the main reason I support nurture 100% even tho I do think deep down that there's some % spread between nature and nurture.
The more people are using a defeatist mentality, the less they are able to nurture themselves and have the patience to go far with it. You're basically giving up before trying.

and let me repeat:

Aqo wrote:

If anybody claims to have tried as hard as somebody else and has achieved worse results, then he simply overestimates how hard he tried and underestimates how hard the other person tried.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
So you're basically saying that there is some sort of talent, but you deny it to give people false hope?

Bastard.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
Is the abiliity to play osu! determined by nature or nurture?
If we talk about ability to play at high level, then nurture.

Even Cookiezi couldn't do the insane stuff he does now from the beginning, he had to practice a lot. BUT; less than other people for doing the same stuff.

As exemple, look at his playcount, it's around 3'000 plays per month. Now look at his playcount, he clearly have more patience and practiced more than cookiezi, and even if he's really good at this game, he's not even close to cookiezi's skill.
That proves that talent exist. All people are not equally good at everything. Some are better than other from the beginning, but you still have to practice for being good.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Playcount doesn't matter much because people would retry for whatever reason instead of play. It's not an accurate way of measuring how much a person spent on the game.
Also playcount is not always correct because people can spend time playing unranked maps which don't give playcount. I am such a person and my 15k~ playcount should be doubled to give a rough estimate of my real playcount (includes the spunout days too).
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

thelewa wrote:

So you're basically saying that there is some sort of talent, but you deny it to give people false hope?
I told you exactly what I think. That "talent" is synonymous to patience and if you don't just fool yourself to think you tried as hard as somebody else and instead ACTUALLY try as hard as they did, you'll get to the same point as them, and even pass them if you try harder.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
@lolcubes : That's true, but from what I could see by speccing both of them, my example is accurate enough :p
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
Nature because I naturally suck
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Kert
In my point of view every skill can be improved in this game
But yeah, it depends on how you are trying to improve
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

GoldenWolf wrote:

@lolcubes : That's true, but from what I could see by speccing both of them, my example is accurate enough :p
Don't forget that despite lower playcount, Cookiezi has more notes hits in his count, and they probably came from harder more spaced maps too, so it's not like Rizzo practiced harder and got less far; he actually did practice less overall, even if you ignore retries and unranked plays.
yoshh
6 posts
Joined September 2010
yoshh
Nature/Talent at the highest level of play 8-)
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

Aqo wrote:

GoldenWolf wrote:

@lolcubes : That's true, but from what I could see by speccing both of them, my example is accurate enough :p
Don't forget that despite lower playcount, Cookiezi has more notes hits in his count, and they probably came from harder more spaced maps too, so it's not like Rizzo practiced harder and got less far; he actually did practice less overall, even if you ignore retries and unranked plays.
Cookiezi has less total score than Rizzo (I mean, way less) and still has more total hits. How to explain that ? => Cookiezi retried more often at the beggining of a map than Rizzo. Rizzo played more the maps entierely, getting higher combo and so higher score, aka played more
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
You can also explain it like this:
Rizzo plays easy maps where he can get a high combo and thus high score, and he trains very slowly by doing so
Cookiezi plays maps that are very hard for him and where he can barely keep a consistent combo, and this pushes his limits harder
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
But actually, Cookiezi doesn't play maps that are very hard for him that often. He plays crazy AR9+DT maps, but even those aren't hard for him. He doesn't even like maps like Big Money. He likes maps that he can FC, and he has pretty much always played maps that he can FC.

That was solely based on just spectating him for 2 years
Last edited by thelewa , edited 1 time in total.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
Okay, let's take my exemple so :

I played maps that were hard and very hard for me, but I improved less than a friend who just played maps at his level (aka getting FC/SS in one try) and even if he's not playing that much (like 1 time per week or so) he's still better than me at many aspect of the game (consistency, streams, accu, jumps/aim, singletap).
The only thing I'm better than him is stamina.
I played like 40k plays (at least) if we count unranked maps, and 30k (maximum) for him.

By your theory I should be better than him, but it's not the case.

small edit : That's called "Talent". Some people are just better from the beginning and improves faster than others.
Saint_old
112 posts
Joined May 2012
Saint_old
I think there are some skill caps... but there's always room for improvement. I am a fast learner myself, but I don't think I could ever be as good as cookiezi or rrtyui or some other players. I don't know what to pick here.
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF

thelewa wrote:

He likes maps that he can FC, and he has pretty much always played maps that he can FC.
I'm surprised he played Shotgun Symphony+ so much then, most of the maps he can't FC he'll just get a really good score or even #1 on it and then just never play it again. This was the case with shotgun too, but it took waaaay more plays than most of the other scores he set did.
Farex_old
40 posts
Joined February 2011
Farex_old

jesus1412 wrote:

Cookiezi is nature. People with crazy as shit accuracy are nature. Everything else can be learnt.
she_old
she_old
Holy shit 5 pages already.

Anyway I think a bit of both, but mainly nature.
I have a lack of focus and am hyper, and whenever I see a lot of different things I get headaches.
This also applies irl when in big crowds, however not paying attention at all helps a lot.
I think I can use this as an excuse for being unable to read ar9 without hidden or below that.
Whenever I play easymod for like 10 songs I get those headaches again so I wonder if I'll manage on easymod one day.
There was a period where I tried training easymod a lot, but nothing good came out of it and the headaches didn't become less.

Regarding streams I used to lift for 6 years and think I got pretty quickly into streaming fast, however I've been doing hard high BPM spamming daily back then without injuring my hands or anything and I used to be fast and able to maintain long combos.
And as of now with quite some long break done and a some violent behavior done I find it hard to stream speeds nonstop, however I still manage to reach high speeds, I just can't maintain anything anymore.

Pretty much the reason why I chose for both.
Sorun
234 posts
Joined October 2010
Sorun
Genetic advantages are a fact of life.
hinaskye
19 posts
Joined October 2010
hinaskye
Well it is true some people have a better rhythm sense than others, but that doesnt mean the ones that don't can't FC a insane map, it just means they have better accuracy. Out of most of my friends, i prob have a better rhythm sense which may have came from playing other music games beforehand. I totally suck at streams but i feel im getting the hang of getting 300s short streams and still working on it.

In a general sense, i really believe to be a more higher skilled player, its all about practise and how much time they spend on osu!, although not eveyone will start off from the same level and grow at the same rate. I can't say anything about playing HR or DT on insane maps, cause at present that seems totally impossible to me, but i think i will get there eventually.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Sorun wrote:

Genetic advantages are a fact of life.
Apparently some people just don't want to accept it.
winber1
4,520 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1
both
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
To echo some sentiments said in this thread:

A normal person who tries hard can beat a talented person who doesn't.
A normal person absolutely cannot beat a talented person who tries their hardest.
At equal levels of effort and practice, a talented person will always beat a normal person.

This applies to both physical and mental capacities. Obviously, practice is required to get good at something (nurture), but a talented person can improve faster and reach a higher maximum potential (nature). Having one is better than having none, and having both is best. The only difference is that practice can be acquired at any time while talent can't.
she_old
she_old

buny wrote:

Nature because I naturally suck
ur bst pro <З33зЗ3ззЗЗ3ЗэЭэЭ

Pettanko wrote:

It's just ten percent luck
Twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure
Fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name
Read my mind. 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

hinaskye wrote:

Well it is true some people have a better rhythm sense than others, but that doesnt mean the ones that don't can't FC a insane map, it just means they have better accuracy. Out of most of my friends, i prob have a better rhythm sense which may have came from playing other music games beforehand. I totally suck at streams but i feel im getting the hang of getting 300s short streams and still working on it.

In a general sense, i really believe to be a more higher skilled player, its all about practise and how much time they spend on osu!, although not eveyone will start off from the same level and grow at the same rate. I can't say anything about playing HR or DT on insane maps, cause at present that seems totally impossible to me, but i think i will get there eventually.
But eventually being able to fc insanes with DT or HR or even both of the mods combined becomes worthless due to the need of accuracy, I can fc most insanes with hr and sometimes dt, but getting low accuracy like 85% makes it so inferior compared to a nomod SS.
Hika
1,553 posts
Joined February 2010
Hika
Just think of this as survival of the fittest.
we would die compared to top 100
gg no re
Goodbye Shin
312 posts
Joined August 2012
Goodbye Shin
I'd say Nature. Because talented people improve faster in many things (not just clicking circles). Of course, you'll need a TON of practice and patience to develop your talent, but the theory that EVERY person CAN achieve everything is wrong from the very beginning. It's an utopia, which has nothing to do with reality. A talented person which invests the same amount of time in practice will always end up higher than the less talented one. That's life.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
tru pros r ones touchd by loser and cookiezi
druidxd
170 posts
Joined May 2011
druidxd
Going for nature, I mean, yes you can improve by playing a lot, but some people have better reflexes (response time), some have better control over their body, better rhythm. Overall if a "talented" player plays exactly the same as a normal player, odds are that the talented one will be way better than the normal one, simply because he get better faster because he doesn't need to train his reflexes, rhythm, or get used to hovering for example as much as a normal player.

Both can be pro, but the talented one will probably be better if they both play the same amount of time/songs.
Mythras
255 posts
Joined February 2010
Mythras
osu! skill breakdown:

10% natural skill
10% settings/tweaks being optimal
80% practice (can compensate for lack of natural skill)

What puts cookiezi past WW and other top players? Probably the natural skill. Some people are born with more patience and the ability to focus harder. These people are usually asian. =P

I'll use myself as an example. At first I started playing osu! with my Korean friend, we both played a normal map till we passed it, took me like 100 tries, took him 30-35, it wasn't an easy normal (lol). We did lots of MP and I noticed him SSing some of our maps in the next week, I was like OMG YOU SS'd THAT! etc. Took me ages to SS anything (I got much better with practice though). He naturally just destroyed me in skill. But with a tremendous effort I got near his level but his accuracy is still crazy.

I also played with a Japanese friend, he was able to do things on flashlight with 1/10th the amount of tries as me with 5x the amount of plays.

For reference, I'm very good at FPS games, like instantly dominate games i've never played before, top frags etc, and my korean friend is amazing at puzzle games, rpgs, and fighting games. Japanese friend was okay at fps.

Thinking back, i've always been good at fps, and my friend has always been good at fighters, he probably had innate rhythm talent too.
Naikaze
2,401 posts
Joined July 2011
Naikaze

jesus1412 wrote:

Cookiezi is nature. People with crazy as shit accuracy are nature. Everything else can be learnt.

That's what I think.
^

I think it should be nature
Last edited by Naikaze , edited 1 time in total.
Soly
343 posts
Joined June 2011
Soly
Obviously it's all genetics and background. You just have to work with what you've got. There are different areas to excel at in osu:

- Snapping/movement/cursor dancing (in the end it doesn't matter how you move, but hey it adds your unique signature to your replays)
- Accuracy (getting that perfect hit within the millisecond)
- Focus (allowing your mind to focus solely on playing)
- Reading (confusing patterns and overlapping notes, fast or slow AR)
- Spinning (clockwise/anti clockwise, consistently under stressful areas of a map)
- Endurance (maintaining focus for extended periods, playing for several hours a day without getting bored)
- Stamina (how consistent you are under stressful play)
- Aim (tiny circles, difficult angles, wide distances)
- Reaction speed (how fast you respond to sudden activity, can be overcome with memory or predicting the next note(reading))
- Streaming (consistency, speed, alternating, single tapping)
- Memory (how fast you can memorize something in the least amount of plays possible, how many things stay permanently stored in your memory eg. a difficult section of a map)
- Adapting (to sudden changes, a new input device)

There are probably a few others aswell. Most likely how you first start playing the game has an effect on how you will turn out. Training may help with your weak areas, but you won't be better than somebody who excels in certain areas no matter how much you "nurture" it. Also your input device will obviously help with the physical side of things, I won't even go into how many areas there are regarding input device.

Then you've got things like posture, ergonomics EG (A player sitting up straight will do better than a player who is slouching). The way you grip your input device, height of the desk you play on. How far away you sit from the desk, Computers fps and specs, your monitors refresh rate, how tired you are. The length of your fingers (may affect streaming speed), whether you sweat alot (grip). What type of headphones you have. How well your right brain co-exists with your left brain during play (this will have an obvious affect on confusing stream notes such as dj pops streams) etc etc etc



tl;dr: Nature.
Antero
31 posts
Joined November 2012
Antero
Nature.

If it was nurture then many people would have outskilled cookiezi.

Cookiezi is "that special player". Every game has 1
xsrsbsns
1,936 posts
Joined July 2010
xsrsbsns
Nurture plays a huge role but nature will always be the limiting factor, always.
Maneuver
112 posts
Joined October 2010
Maneuver
Nurturing you nature skill, reaching nature skill limit.Then ? Transcending nature limit by tons of nurturing, just to get 0.01% more ? Don't know if there is someone has just only discovered new innert nature on very late stages, or altered or created new nature.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

Maneuver wrote:

Nurturing you nature skill, reaching nature skill limit.Then ? Transcending nature limit by tons of nurturing, just to get 0.01% more ? Don't know if there is someone has just only discovered new innert nature on very late stages, or altered or created new nature.
I agree.
Jordan
1,037 posts
Joined December 2010
Jordan

Kanye West wrote:

20% nature, 80% nurture
Same, also for the "put 2 people, make them train 2 months and see the results" there are too many factors influencing that in the game, like FPS in game (low fps = cursor lag) playing devices, mood, physical conditions ecc...
Aeidxst
291 posts
Joined July 2012
Aeidxst
Ability is just a shortcut.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
what a stupid thing to say.

"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Tanzklaue wrote:

"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"
What a stupid thing to say. That doesn't even make sense. Everybody who trains at something gets better at it with no exceptions.
Soly
343 posts
Joined June 2011
Soly

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?

EDIT: I love you aqo, just something to think about.
Last edited by Soly , edited 1 time in total.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Soly wrote:

What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?
What does any of this have to do with your ability to click on circles

GOD DAMNIT LEWA STOP POSTING RIGHT AFTER I HIT EDIT OMG YOU'RE DOING THIS ON PURPOSE meh
Last edited by Aqo , edited 3 times in total.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Soly wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?
That's ingenious.

Also, to simplify matters for Aqo, talent is not some sort of magical voodoo thing that makes a person better at something. Think about how every person is different from each other (their bodies are different, their minds are different) and think about how they are better or worse at something because of this. Take it up to 11 and you have found what talent is.

That's a really simplified explanation, though.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
Yes lewa I understand perfectly well what you mean.

However being talented in osu would mean what, being born with better... wrists? Better eyesight?
As long as your body is capable of moving a finger up and down and perceiving the difference between a circle and the background you have all the tools you need to train and get as good as cookiezi or better.
Last edited by Aqo , edited 1 time in total.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Why wrists?
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
Because a stronger wrist allows to aim more consistently and hit buttons consistently for longer without getting tired.

Except wrist strength is trainable and it's not something people are born with particularly significant different levels on.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire
It's a matter of both. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Have you heard of "squandered talent" ?

Having talent still requires practice.

Aeidxst wrote:

Ability is just a shortcut.
For everyone else it takes longer.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Aqo wrote:

Yes lewa I understand perfectly well what you mean.

However being talented in osu would mean what, being born with better... wrists? Better eyesight?
As long as your body is capable of moving a finger up and down and perceiving the difference between a circle and the background you have all the tools you need to train and get as good as cookiezi or better.
I think it's more to do with your mind than your physical strength.
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