To echo some sentiments said in this thread:

A normal person who tries hard can beat a talented person who doesn't.
A normal person absolutely cannot beat a talented person who tries their hardest.
At equal levels of effort and practice, a talented person will always beat a normal person.

This applies to both physical and mental capacities. Obviously, practice is required to get good at something (nurture), but a talented person can improve faster and reach a higher maximum potential (nature). Having one is better than having none, and having both is best. The only difference is that practice can be acquired at any time while talent can't.

buny wrote:

Nature because I naturally suck

ur bst pro <З33зЗ3ззЗЗ3ЗэЭэЭ

Pettanko wrote:

It's just ten percent luck
Twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure
Fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name

Read my mind.

hinaskye wrote:

Well it is true some people have a better rhythm sense than others, but that doesnt mean the ones that don't can't FC a insane map, it just means they have better accuracy. Out of most of my friends, i prob have a better rhythm sense which may have came from playing other music games beforehand. I totally suck at streams but i feel im getting the hang of getting 300s short streams and still working on it.

In a general sense, i really believe to be a more higher skilled player, its all about practise and how much time they spend on osu!, although not eveyone will start off from the same level and grow at the same rate. I can't say anything about playing HR or DT on insane maps, cause at present that seems totally impossible to me, but i think i will get there eventually.

But eventually being able to fc insanes with DT or HR or even both of the mods combined becomes worthless due to the need of accuracy, I can fc most insanes with hr and sometimes dt, but getting low accuracy like 85% makes it so inferior compared to a nomod SS.

Just think of this as survival of the fittest.
we would die compared to top 100
gg no re

I'd say Nature. Because talented people improve faster in many things (not just clicking circles). Of course, you'll need a TON of practice and patience to develop your talent, but the theory that EVERY person CAN achieve everything is wrong from the very beginning. It's an utopia, which has nothing to do with reality. A talented person which invests the same amount of time in practice will always end up higher than the less talented one. That's life.

tru pros r ones touchd by loser and cookiezi

Going for nature, I mean, yes you can improve by playing a lot, but some people have better reflexes (response time), some have better control over their body, better rhythm. Overall if a "talented" player plays exactly the same as a normal player, odds are that the talented one will be way better than the normal one, simply because he get better faster because he doesn't need to train his reflexes, rhythm, or get used to hovering for example as much as a normal player.

Both can be pro, but the talented one will probably be better if they both play the same amount of time/songs.

osu! skill breakdown:

10% natural skill
10% settings/tweaks being optimal
80% practice (can compensate for lack of natural skill)

What puts cookiezi past WW and other top players? Probably the natural skill. Some people are born with more patience and the ability to focus harder. These people are usually asian. =P

I'll use myself as an example. At first I started playing osu! with my Korean friend, we both played a normal map till we passed it, took me like 100 tries, took him 30-35, it wasn't an easy normal (lol). We did lots of MP and I noticed him SSing some of our maps in the next week, I was like OMG YOU SS'd THAT! etc. Took me ages to SS anything (I got much better with practice though). He naturally just destroyed me in skill. But with a tremendous effort I got near his level but his accuracy is still crazy.

I also played with a Japanese friend, he was able to do things on flashlight with 1/10th the amount of tries as me with 5x the amount of plays.

For reference, I'm very good at FPS games, like instantly dominate games i've never played before, top frags etc, and my korean friend is amazing at puzzle games, rpgs, and fighting games. Japanese friend was okay at fps.

Thinking back, i've always been good at fps, and my friend has always been good at fighters, he probably had innate rhythm talent too.

jesus1412 wrote:

Cookiezi is nature. People with crazy as shit accuracy are nature. Everything else can be learnt.

That's what I think.

^

I think it should be nature

Obviously it's all genetics and background. You just have to work with what you've got. There are different areas to excel at in osu:

- Snapping/movement/cursor dancing (in the end it doesn't matter how you move, but hey it adds your unique signature to your replays)
- Accuracy (getting that perfect hit within the millisecond)
- Focus (allowing your mind to focus solely on playing)
- Reading (confusing patterns and overlapping notes, fast or slow AR)
- Spinning (clockwise/anti clockwise, consistently under stressful areas of a map)
- Endurance (maintaining focus for extended periods, playing for several hours a day without getting bored)
- Stamina (how consistent you are under stressful play)
- Aim (tiny circles, difficult angles, wide distances)
- Reaction speed (how fast you respond to sudden activity, can be overcome with memory or predicting the next note(reading))
- Streaming (consistency, speed, alternating, single tapping)
- Memory (how fast you can memorize something in the least amount of plays possible, how many things stay permanently stored in your memory eg. a difficult section of a map)
- Adapting (to sudden changes, a new input device)

There are probably a few others aswell. Most likely how you first start playing the game has an effect on how you will turn out. Training may help with your weak areas, but you won't be better than somebody who excels in certain areas no matter how much you "nurture" it. Also your input device will obviously help with the physical side of things, I won't even go into how many areas there are regarding input device.

Then you've got things like posture, ergonomics EG (A player sitting up straight will do better than a player who is slouching). The way you grip your input device, height of the desk you play on. How far away you sit from the desk, Computers fps and specs, your monitors refresh rate, how tired you are. The length of your fingers (may affect streaming speed), whether you sweat alot (grip). What type of headphones you have. How well your right brain co-exists with your left brain during play (this will have an obvious affect on confusing stream notes such as dj pops streams) etc etc etc



tl;dr: Nature.

Nature.

If it was nurture then many people would have outskilled cookiezi.

Cookiezi is "that special player". Every game has 1

Nurture plays a huge role but nature will always be the limiting factor, always.

Nurturing you nature skill, reaching nature skill limit.Then ? Transcending nature limit by tons of nurturing, just to get 0.01% more ? Don't know if there is someone has just only discovered new innert nature on very late stages, or altered or created new nature.

Maneuver wrote:

Nurturing you nature skill, reaching nature skill limit.Then ? Transcending nature limit by tons of nurturing, just to get 0.01% more ? Don't know if there is someone has just only discovered new innert nature on very late stages, or altered or created new nature.

I agree.

Kanye West wrote:

20% nature, 80% nurture

Same, also for the "put 2 people, make them train 2 months and see the results" there are too many factors influencing that in the game, like FPS in game (low fps = cursor lag) playing devices, mood, physical conditions ecc...

Ability is just a shortcut.

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.

what a stupid thing to say.

"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"

Tanzklaue wrote:

"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"

What a stupid thing to say. That doesn't even make sense. Everybody who trains at something gets better at it with no exceptions.

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.

What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?

EDIT: I love you aqo, just something to think about.

Soly wrote:

What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?

What does any of this have to do with your ability to click on circles

GOD DAMNIT LEWA STOP POSTING RIGHT AFTER I HIT EDIT OMG YOU'RE DOING THIS ON PURPOSE meh

Soly wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.

What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?

That's ingenious.

Also, to simplify matters for Aqo, talent is not some sort of magical voodoo thing that makes a person better at something. Think about how every person is different from each other (their bodies are different, their minds are different) and think about how they are better or worse at something because of this. Take it up to 11 and you have found what talent is.

That's a really simplified explanation, though.

Yes lewa I understand perfectly well what you mean.

However being talented in osu would mean what, being born with better... wrists? Better eyesight?
As long as your body is capable of moving a finger up and down and perceiving the difference between a circle and the background you have all the tools you need to train and get as good as cookiezi or better.

Why wrists?

Because a stronger wrist allows to aim more consistently and hit buttons consistently for longer without getting tired.

Except wrist strength is trainable and it's not something people are born with particularly significant different levels on.

It's a matter of both. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Have you heard of "squandered talent" ?

Having talent still requires practice.

Aeidxst wrote:

Ability is just a shortcut.

For everyone else it takes longer.

Aqo wrote:

Yes lewa I understand perfectly well what you mean.

However being talented in osu would mean what, being born with better... wrists? Better eyesight?
As long as your body is capable of moving a finger up and down and perceiving the difference between a circle and the background you have all the tools you need to train and get as good as cookiezi or better.

I think it's more to do with your mind than your physical strength.

Aqo wrote:

Tanzklaue wrote:

"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"

What a stupid thing to say. That doesn't even make sense. Everybody who trains at something gets better at it with no exceptions.

I put in quotas because it's stupid, I don't think that way myself. I just wanted to show you that your statement is on a similar level of stupidity. I think that I suck, and that it is clearly because of lack of practice and motivation, and everytime I play I have the feeling I should be much better at this than I am. but this game jsut doesn't do it for me anymore, so I don't think I will ever get my full potential released; whereever it might have been.

and being talented in osu means:
-superior sense of rhythm
-easy adapting to spacing
-faster learning of speed
-mindsetting to never give up

Soly wrote:

What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting?EDIT: I love you aqo, just something to think about

one day an african will come and take Cookiezi place, one day.

edit: also it would be SOOOOO great to hear what Cookiezi thinks about this , sadly his not talented for speaking english

Liutprando wrote:

Soly wrote:

What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting?EDIT: I love you aqo, just something to think about

one day an african will come and take Cookiezi place, one day.

edit: also it would be SOOOOO great to hear what Cookiezi thinks about this , sadly his not talented for speaking english

I'm still trying to find a real "African" who plays osu!

Just deal with it, if you compare two people that play osu! under the same hardware to avoid FPS difference, cursor lag and such, with the same keyboard and tablet, and both have the exact same playstyle, if one has better reflexes and stamina, their skill cap WILL be higher, cause he can react faster and last longer than the other one. The way I see it is like comparing two different PCs that share the exact same software (being the software the comparison to having the same input devices on players, tablet, keyboard and also PC.), one has better hardware than the other (because of their "talent"), they both have the same software, the one with better hardware will win EVERY test, simple as that.

Achieven high level play CAN be done by practicing, and even if you are talented you need to practice, but the skill cap on every player is different, and talented ones WILL have a higher skill cap, because their body has more potential.

I hope that explained my point of view.

Tanzklaue wrote:

and being talented in osu means:
-superior sense of rhythm
-easy adapting to spacing
-faster learning of speed
-mindsetting to never give up

thelewa wrote:

I think it's more to do with your mind than your physical strength.

Wouldn't you say that a player's mindset, motivation and mental approach to the game can only be nurtured?

Also, this was intended to be a debate. I know some of you struggle to accept that other people think in a different manner from you but please try to keep the discussion constructive as opposed to the usual "you're stupid for saying that" and "wow you idiot". Respect each other's opinions.

LaVolpe024 wrote:

thelewa wrote:

I think it's more to do with your mind than your physical strength.

Wouldn't you say that a player's mindset, motivation and mental approach to the game can only be nurtured?

Some people can naturally comprehend more things at a time than others, and do it faster. This can be trained to a certain degree, but there's no making a genius out of a person who wasn't born one. Trust me, I know this better than anyone else since my parents tried to make me one.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Nature determines how high your skill cap is.
Nurture only determines how close to it you will get.

It is naive to assume that everyone is on equal footing in osu! or any other thing for that matter.

Also wrong nurturing can bring down the skill cap.
I forgot to mention this.

Tanzklaue wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.

what a stupid thing to say.

"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"

I dun understand this, by knowing you are not as talented as others, you know/acknowledge you have to train more harder than the talented person to be at the same level or surpass him.

loseri wrote:

Also wrong nurturing can bring down the skill cap.
I forgot to mention this.

How to define this? Playing Easy/Normals for too long could get you too used to playing these difficulties. Playing Insanes off-the-bat, or difficulties that are too hard for you on a regular basis could also be counter-productive.

While I agree with what you are saying... I don't know "which way the scale tips." - Probably both ways.

It's more like also considering playing the same map over & over again such as trying to FC something over a long period of time. Repetitive playing also counts as wrong nuturing because intended action from a normal player would to be moving on & playing a different map, only to come back to the map that has troubled them before.

RaneFire wrote:

loseri wrote:

Also wrong nurturing can bring down the skill cap.
I forgot to mention this.

How to define this?

Like spamming impossible stuff since the start.
Doing stuff that gives you bad habits.

8 pages wow.. I'm kinda late but still want to share my opinion.
There're kinda three aspects which makes people "different" in any kind of competition (let's say things like settings and stuff are already in ideal point):

Intelligence capacities
Determines the effectiveness of your learning process. Can be practiced by learning new things and doing math.
Physical capacities
Determines your physical limits. Obviously, can be practiced. do u even lift?
Mental capacities
Determines your goals and the amount of effort you put to achieve them. Can be changed by reprioritizing.

Why are some people better than others from the beginning?
-because the actual beginning begins not when you made an Osu! account or started lifting everyday but from your birth. You gain any kind of experience and having practice the whole life in many "not direct" ways. You train reaction playing ping-pong, sense of rhytm - playing musical instruments, fingers agility and speed - pressing keys in another games, coordination - juggling balls etc. you can even train your patience just being patient. Learning new things requires different skills some of which you already could own at pretty high level from learning another things. African people are physically stronger others because they have different living conditions that forces them to be strong, means they've just had more physical practice than others.

That's why everyone has a different starting point and learning speed. And that means if the skill cap is exist it's the same for everyone.
So the person you call talented simpy had more practice in any of those 3 aspects mentioned above.

Yes, animals and even humans doing same things for ages can evolute to do it even better (like again african people) but is veeery unnoticeable because it takes like thousands of years and evolving group must be fully isolated from other people.

tl;dr: Nurture, totally agree with Aqo.
sry for poor engrish ;_;

enik wrote:

8 pages wow.. I'm kinda late but still want to share my opinion.
There're kinda three aspects which makes people "different" in any kind of competition (let's say things like settings and stuff are already in ideal point):

Intelligence capacities
Determines the effectiveness of your learning process. Can be practiced by learning new things and doing math.
Physical capacities
Determines your physical limits. Obviously, can be practiced. do u even lift?
Mental capacities
Determines your goals and the amount of effort you put to achieve them. Can be changed by reprioritizing.

Why are some people better than others from the beginning?
-because the actual beginning begins not when you made an Osu! account or started lifting everyday but from your birth. You gain any kind of experience and having practice the whole life in many "not direct" ways. You train reaction playing ping-pong, sense of rhytm - playing musical instruments, fingers agility and speed - pressing keys in another games, coordination - juggling balls etc. you can even train your patience just being patient. Learning new things requires different skills some of which you already could own at pretty high level from learning another things. African people are physically stronger others because they have different living conditions that forces them to be strong, means they've just had more physical practice than others.

That's why everyone has a different starting point and learning speed. And that means if the skill cap is exist it's the same for everyone.
So the person you call talented simpy had more practice in any of those 3 aspects mentioned above.

Yes, animals and even humans doing same things for ages can evolute to do it even better (like again african people) but is veeery unnoticeable because it takes like thousands of years and evolving group must be fully isolated from other people.

tl;dr: Nurture, totally agree with Aqo.
sry for poor engrish ;_;

yes Yes YES, I absolutely agree, this thread was lacking a post like this one!

Hika wrote:

It's more like also considering playing the same map over & over again such as trying to FC something over a long period of time. Repetitive playing also counts as wrong nuturing because intended action from a normal player would to be moving on & playing a different map, only to come back to the map that has troubled them before.

I disagree. Sometimes I play a map 100 times in a row for whatever reason and I really dont mind retrying and replaying and in the end I only noticed positive things from it (that I could notice, because noticing when you get better is really damn hard after a certain point). I guess it comes down to the mindset and I am a very patient person.

lolcubes wrote:

Hika wrote:

It's more like also considering playing the same map over & over again such as trying to FC something over a long period of time. Repetitive playing also counts as wrong nuturing because intended action from a normal player would to be moving on & playing a different map, only to come back to the map that has troubled them before.

I disagree. Sometimes I play a map 100 times in a row for whatever reason and I really dont mind retrying and replaying and in the end I only noticed positive things from it (that I could notice, because noticing when you get better is really damn hard after a certain point). I guess it comes down to the mindset and I am a very patient person.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Some people are capable of that, which I forgot to point out in my earlier post. I'm one of those people where playing a map over & over again isn't helpful & it permanently damages my ability to play it ever again.

SteRRuM wrote:

enik wrote:

8 pages wow.. I'm kinda late but still want to share my opinion.
There're kinda three aspects which makes people "different" in any kind of competition (let's say things like settings and stuff are already in ideal point):

Intelligence capacities
Determines the effectiveness of your learning process. Can be practiced by learning new things and doing math.
Physical capacities
Determines your physical limits. Obviously, can be practiced. do u even lift?
Mental capacities
Determines your goals and the amount of effort you put to achieve them. Can be changed by reprioritizing.

Why are some people better than others from the beginning?
-because the actual beginning begins not when you made an Osu! account or started lifting everyday but from your birth. You gain any kind of experience and having practice the whole life in many "not direct" ways. You train reaction playing ping-pong, sense of rhytm - playing musical instruments, fingers agility and speed - pressing keys in another games, coordination - juggling balls etc. you can even train your patience just being patient. Learning new things requires different skills some of which you already could own at pretty high level from learning another things. African people are physically stronger others because they have different living conditions that forces them to be strong, means they've just had more physical practice than others.

That's why everyone has a different starting point and learning speed. And that means if the skill cap is exist it's the same for everyone.
So the person you call talented simpy had more practice in any of those 3 aspects mentioned above.

Yes, animals and even humans doing same things for ages can evolute to do it even better (like again african people) but is veeery unnoticeable because it takes like thousands of years and evolving group must be fully isolated from other people.

tl;dr: Nurture, totally agree with Aqo.
sry for poor engrish ;_;

yes Yes YES, I absolutely agree, this thread was lacking a post like this one!

also agree

sure some people have "genetic advantages" over others, but that just means more effort will have to be put in. you'll never get anywhere in anything putting the blame on genetics, construing hindrance as unbreakable barriers. and hey you might not see improvement right away, or you might fail despite putting in all that effort, but the moment when it does pay off gives one of the best feelings in the world

I sure do hate the feeling of having to maintain a pace daily to not lose any skill and barely gain any while playing.
I hate the feeling even more of losing the ability to play the less I play at like a 50x the rate I gain any skill.

I'm glad that I gave up playing to improve and went to 100% playing for fun.

I have no skill to lose in the first place

ew huge-ass name pls
ew bany wai

There is a lot of thought being put into this when I think it's rather simple. If you have natural talents, as the top players do, you will automatically be above average players. You can practice to try to make yourself as good as the top players (such as what I try to do ;_;), but in the end you will be expending a lot more time and effort to come even close to their level (or to be well below it such as I am).

tl;dr Practice is good and all, but those at the top of the totem pole will always be there.

loseri wrote:

ew huge-ass name pls
ew bany wai

i disliek peple jacking my avatar all the time lol

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.

That's not even an argument. It's a simplified point of view that fits your opinion, which you're trying to defend. It's just naive to think that everyone has the same skill cap from the start. Nobody disagrees that nurturing helps to improve thou.

Goodbye Shin wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.

That's not even an argument. It's a simplified point of view that fits your opinion, which you're trying to defend. It's just naive to think that everyone has the same skill cap from the start. Nobody disagrees that nurturing helps to improve thou.

It's naive to think there's a skill cap at all, because nobody has hit a skill cap yet.

Nobody.

Dudes

what if everyone has actually hit their skillcap

and the game is just being made easier every day

what a conspiracy

idk Aqo, jesse has sucked pretty bad for the entire last half of this year

In response to lewa: Yeah Scarlet Rose suddenly because easier in the last year, that's why Cookiezi was able to HR it now.

And Jappy jesse said doukoku was too fast than to be fun and that it's impossible to singletap like a few months ago when it was just submitted and now in the last week he singletapped it.

You don't improve overnight unless you practice correctly and focus on specific things one at a time but it happens over time and eventually you go back to old maps that used to be hard for you and suddenly realize they feel normal or even too easy.

jesse used to be such a noob like 6-8 months ago, now he's touched by jesus.

I wish I was touched by jesus, I'm getting sick of having to retry everything a 100 times before I manage to FC it once

both

Aqo wrote:

It's naive to think there's a skill cap at all, because nobody has hit a skill cap yet.

Nobody.

There is a skill cap, if there wouldn't be a skill cap then people could theoretically train to react faster than 10ms, and move their fingers fast enough to be able to play 1000bpm 1/4 streams flawlessly, but that's absurd, because you have PHYSICAL and MENTAL limitations, those limitations are not even for all of us.

druidxd wrote:

Aqo wrote:

It's naive to think there's a skill cap at all, because nobody has hit a skill cap yet.

Nobody.

There is a skill cap, if there wouldn't be a skill cap then people could theoretically train to react faster than 10ms, and move their fingers fast enough to be able to play 1000bpm 1/4 streams flawlessly, but that's absurd, because you have PHYSICAL and MENTAL limitations, those limitations are not even for all of us.

I don't think that makes much sense, no one has ever come even light years close to what you can define "physics and mental limitations".

Jordan wrote:

I don't think that makes much sense, no one has ever come even light years close to what you can define "physics and mental limitations".

That's the point, you can easily make something sound absurd, but if you think about it, if skill cap is non-existant, as Aqo said, just because nobody has hit it yet, then you can think of absurd things, such as streaming 1000 bpm, or reacting almost instantly, but as we know, that's just impossible, physically impossible, it's a limitation that our human body gives us.
So there is a skill cap, but how high is it? It depends, some people have higher skill caps, just because they have natural talents, they are better at some things, Cookiezi is a living proof of this, he is not the only one that has practiced a lot, I mean, there are at least 20 players that have practiced as much or even more than him (probably even more than 20), but he's still the best, he's the best osu player, and everyone agrees on that because he can show how good he is. He's naturally good.

My assumptions are that you can improve indefinetly, but the improvement becomes smaller every time, it's like limits on math, I guess, and the limit varies from one person to the other.

druidxd wrote:

then you can think of absurd things, such as streaming 1000 bpm, or reacting almost instantly, but as we know, that's just impossible, physically impossible, it's a limitation that our human body gives us.

The idea of streaming over 240bpm was absurd and beyond impossible at 2009. If you told somebody then that people can learn to do 270bpm streams he'll be like "pfft that's impossible".

Did the laws of physics suddenly change over the years or something.

Maps changed

Aqo wrote:

druidxd wrote:

then you can think of absurd things, such as streaming 1000 bpm, or reacting almost instantly, but as we know, that's just impossible, physically impossible, it's a limitation that our human body gives us.

The idea of streaming over 240bpm was absurd and beyond impossible at 2009. If you told somebody then that people can learn to do 270bpm streams he'll be like "pfft that's impossible".

Did the laws of physics suddenly change over the years or something.

Then let's wait 2 years and then we will be able to watch either cookiezi or someone else play 270bpm maps on DT+HR.

Don't know if serious or just trolling.

Even the laws of physics have limitations on certain aspects, as for example speed, you can't go faster than the speed of light.

genetics exist

Also, if you think about it, if you could develop a high enough skill, you will be bottlenecked by your hardware, such as your keyboard, you need to press keys on it, and you need to let it go for a fraction of a second to re-press it, you can't press it faster than that, it's not like you could press keys so fast to achieve 1000bpm streams, although I still have no mathematical facts on it, I should know how long does it take to the key to be able to press it again, but it should be calculated.

No matter what you say, people haven't come close to limits yet.
Things that look impossible to you now will become standard once players who play seriously will play more and improve more.
Trying to blame your inability to do stuff on nature is basically looking for excuses to not having nurtured enough.

300bpm streams seems impossible to me now, does it mean it will be the standard in 2 years ? C'mon aqo.

GoldenWolf wrote:

300bpm streams seems impossible to me now, does it mean it will be the standard in 2 years ? C'mon aqo.

300bpm streams don't even seem impossible to me right now D:

The hard limits right now (based on player performance) are:
250bpm stream
240bpm jump

The light limits (based on player inconsistent performance):
300bpm stream
275bpm jump

Nature affects nurture
Nurture can't affect nature
Thus Nature is the only thing that affects anything.

I will never be a top level player because I wasn't born with the ability to practice mundane tasks for hours on end. I have natural talent for music which has been nurtured over my life, however, which makes me above average at all rhythm games.

Jordan wrote:

There is a skill cap, if there wouldn't be a skill cap then people could theoretically train to react faster than 10ms, and move their fingers fast enough to be able to play 1000bpm 1/4 streams flawlessly, but that's absurd, because you have PHYSICAL and MENTAL limitations, those limitations are not even for all of us.

Humans are able to innovate in many different ways. 4000 bpm is a bit out there, but I imagine with 4 fingers and a little programming it would be easy to do. Someone would probably call that cheating though.

Also, reaction time can be completely negated through memorization.

Aqo wrote:

No matter what you say, people haven't come close to limits yet.
Things that look impossible to you now will become standard once players who play seriously will play more and improve more.
Trying to blame your inability to do stuff on nature is basically looking for excuses to not having nurtured enough.

I'm not looking for excuses, and i'm even probably soon retireing from osu because I'm going to start playing competitive dota 2, and other games, but saying that there isn't a skill cap and justifying it by saying that players back in 200X couldn't stream is just using a flawed argument.

High skilled players are coming closer and closer to their respective skill caps, and that is determined by a "genetic" level, if I might say so, although skill caps are probably not too distant from one to another, they are not exactly the same.

Yes, high skilled players can still improve, but the more they improve, the less the will be able to improve later, until the only thing that is left is retrying a map 2000 times until you FC it, even though you have been able to do it almost FCing it with 99.99% accuracy over and over, but you failed to FC it because a single miss.
Sure they can even memorize that map and play it with FL, being this an improvement on a mental way (memorizing a huge map, or something like that).

I can be wrong, I'm not saying that I'm the one who dictates the rules of this and that, it's just that this is how I see this.

Aqo wrote:

300bpm streams don't even seem impossible to me right now D:

The hard limits right now (based on player performance) are:
250bpm stream
240bpm jump

The light limits (based on player inconsistent performance):
300bpm stream
275bpm jump

1760 (440bpm 1/4ths) keyboard strokes per minute using only 2 keys on a keyboard is not far fetched according to other rhythm games.

ziin wrote:

1760 (440bpm 1/4ths) keyboard strokes per minute using only 2 keys on a keyboard is not far fetched according to other rhythm games.

I want those people's fingers and keyboards. ;_;

EDIT: It's amazing how fast one can "stream" using only two feet, though.

microsoft comfort curve 2000 is like $20.

EDIT: Heel and toe!

ziin wrote:

1760 (440bpm 1/4ths) keyboard strokes per minute using only 2 keys on a keyboard is not far fetched according to other rhythm games.

1760 keyboard strokes per minute using 2 keys.
880 keyboard strokes per minute per key (1760/2)
14,66666 keyboard strokes per second per key.
I've read somewhere that I can't find now that the world record was 16 keystrokes per second, so...

16*60 = 960. (960 keyboard strokes per minute, single key)
960*2 = 1920. (1920 keyboard strokes per minute, 2 keys)

That would theoretically be 480 bpm 1/4ths. World record.

So in theory, an osu player could play Syrsa - Mad Machine on DT, and even FC SS it, if he had perfect response time and aiming.

No person on earth would be able to stream 1000bpm, therefore skill cap exists because of physical limitations.

Btw, 300 bpm streams would probably be pro's standard in a couple of years, people can fc Mad Machine right now, which is 270 bpm.

The game is becoming easier not cause the skill of the player is raising but only cause there are more and more players...

If the world record is streaming 480bpm then we're still far off from being anywhere near the limit yo.
Come on guys step it up. Practice harder.
Do you even lift.

Well, that's not streaming 480bpm, that's singletapping 240 bpm. I can singletap 110 bpm for ages but can't stream 220 bpm for very long at all, so there's some difference.

Aqo wrote:

If the world record is streaming 480bpm then we're still far off from being anywhere near the limit yo.
Come on guys step it up. Practice harder.
Do you even lift.

That's the world record of keystrokes per second on a SINGLE key, and that's probably done the same way we see people upload single tapping videos to youtube where they stream at about 180bpm/190bpm single tapping, they don't really press it the same way we do, they do something as "shivering" to achieve this. I doubt that people could "shiver" double tapping, too unlikely, and probably impossible, unless it's done with the taiko big circle method, but that means poor accuracy. So no, I don't think anyone would be able to stream 480bpm, probably 300-350bpm 1/4ths, but it's already really a lot, more than that's it's too unlikely.

But that's not the point, the point is that we could establish a skill limit or cap, so, nurturing will only make you achieve that skill cap, but, is it the same for everyone? I don't think so, the way I see it, talented people can achieve better results and have a higher skill cap, so in a way, once everyone is "done" practicing, the "high level play" would be determined by nature and genetics, keep in mind that it is a theoretically way of seeing this, you can always memorize a map by playing it a billion times and get a better score that someone that is better than you because of flashlight, but if we give a new "limit pusher" map to a talented player, and a normal player that achieve their skill cap then on it's first try, the talented one will theoretically speaking achieve better results/score.

MillhioreF wrote:

Well, that's not streaming 480bpm, that's singletapping 240 bpm. I can singletap 110 bpm for ages but can't stream 220 bpm for very long at all, so there's some difference.

Do you single tap 240bpm 1/4ths streams? (the math was done counting every note on a Xbpm 1/4ths stream)

You can't just double single tap speed and call it stream speed


Otherwise I'd be dt'ing chipscape

buny wrote:

You can't just double single tap speed and call it stream speed


Otherwise I'd be dt'ing chipscape

I know, It was just a calculation done theoretically, there are other factors involved in osu!, pratically I would say that a stream "skill cap" would be around achieve 300-350bpm 1/4ths, talking about pro's.

What I did was a kind of "extrapolation".

It was done to clarify that there is a skill limit, and that players are getting closer and closer to that limit, probably the closer they get, the less they will improve on the same amount of time "x".

druidxd wrote:

I know, It was just a calculation done theoretically, there are other factors involved in osu!, pratically I would say that a stream "skill cap" would be around achieve 300-350bpm 1/4ths, talking about pro's.

You're just making up numbers and, had somebody made up those numbers with the same mindset you're using right now, 3 years ago, they'd come up with lower numbers.

Point is: nature doesn't limit you in any practical way. Maybe some cap exists somewhere but nobody can claim to be restricted by nature because so far there is not a single player anywhere close to a cap.

Aqo wrote:

druidxd wrote:

I know, It was just a calculation done theoretically, there are other factors involved in osu!, pratically I would say that a stream "skill cap" would be around achieve 300-350bpm 1/4ths, talking about pro's.

You're just making up numbers and, had somebody made up those numbers with the same mindset you're using right now, 3 years ago, they'd come up with lower numbers.

Point is: nature doesn't limit you in any practical way. Maybe some cap exists somewhere but nobody can claim to be restricted by nature because so far there is not a single player anywhere close to a cap.

That IS true right now, but in a couple years it will be more evident that nature limits you, as you said, we will be impressed by people streaming 325bpm, and we would probably say that this was unthinkable 2 years in the past, probably cookiezi will still be a "god" of osu, but also probably other players will shine with their talent.

In fact, "natural talent" is everywhere, there are talented mathematicians, talented actors, why can't there be talented osu players? it's not that they were born to play osu, but they were born with better "things" like reflexes, control over their hands, focus, etcetera, just as talented mathematicians or talented chess players are more intelligent, they aren't born to play chess, but they have higher "intelligence" that makes them better at those things.

*Edit*: there would probably be a more clear line between high level "talented" players and high level "normal" players in a couple years in the future.

Nobody streamed fast in the older days because no map required a fast stream speed



People learn to stream faster because of the faster tempo songs that are made in this day of age. That doesn't mean that it is a linear improvement.

buny wrote:

Nobody streamed fast in the older days because no map required a fast stream speed



People learn to stream faster because of the faster tempo songs that are made in this day of age. That doesn't mean that it is a linear improvement.

It's not linear, in fact I didn't even said it was linear, I did said that improvement had a limit, and the closer you get to that limit the less improvement you will see in an "x" period of time.

I think it's nurture

So I'm wrong.

wat.

I am sexy and I think it's nature

So since obviously no one has hit their skill cap and all people have the same genetic starting point, does that mean I can be Einstein?

Brb I'll be Einsteining over here.

Edit: god writing on my phone takes so much time ;_;

I can say that if there is a limit, we are not even close to it. Some people generally develop faster in these games than others, but I don't believe people who are determined and willed enough to improve to the current "top-level" can hit a point where there is nothing left they can do to improve. This is especially true when the "top level" bar gets higher and higher and people get better and better spite already being at the top. Sure it's not easy to become top level, but it's never impossible.

About the conversation you people had in the previous pages, I think it's pretty clear that streaming 300bpm with a keyboard is pretty much impossible for long periods of time.

I mean seriously

thelewa wrote:

About the conversation you people had in the previous pages, I think it's pretty clear that streaming 300bpm with a keyboard is pretty much impossible for long periods of time.

I mean seriously

I think ur stupid. I can stream 340bpm for at least 40 notes. I think it's both because I was born an idiot but I lift.

I have to change my views on this matter a bit.

Lifting does indeed help.

thelewa wrote:

I have to change my views on this matter a bit.

Lifting does indeed help.

Yes that is why we need to "both" option. This thread is biased in either direction like a compass.

It should actually be "nurturing your talent" instead of just "nurture" or "nature".

Mithost wrote:

I can say that if there is a limit, we are not even close to it. Some people generally develop faster in these games than others, but I don't believe people who are determined and willed enough to improve to the current "top-level" can hit a point where there is nothing left they can do to improve. This is especially true when the "top level" bar gets higher and higher and people get better and better spite already being at the top. Sure it's not easy to become top level, but it's never impossible.

Theoretically, you could keep improving for ever, but you will never be able to surpass that skill cap, so it's like let's say, your skill cap is 3. at first you improve a lot, like you start with 0, then you improve 1.5, then 0.9, then 0.4, then 0.01, then 0.0001, you start improving less, because what you improve at first is the basics, how to jump, how to stream, then you improve large aspects of that, faster and more precise jumping, faster streaming, then you keep on improving on details, and then it's just polishing details, so improvement is less everytime, and you will never reach 3.

That's my thought about this.

druidxd wrote:

Theoretically, you could keep improving for ever, but you will never be able to surpass that skill cap, so it's like let's say, your skill cap is 3. at first you improve a lot, like you start with 0, then you improve 1.5, then 0.9, then 0.4, then 0.01, then 0.0001, you start improving less, because what you improve at first is the basics, how to jump, how to stream, then you improve large aspects of that, faster and more precise jumping, faster streaming, then you keep on improving on details, and then it's just polishing details, so improvement is less everytime, and you will never reach 3.

That's my thought about this.

Exactly what I think, thanks for putting words on this lol

Skill cap is like Asymptote in math; you can improve forever, but you'll never reach that skill cap.
When you first start osu!, you do progress quickly, and in like 1-2 months for the common people you start FCing easier insanes without much problems, but over the time, even if you still doing progress, it become smaller and smaller.
Some people have the skill cap higher than others, that's unfair, but life is unfair.

I know I'll never be as good as the top players are, (mainly because of my carpal tunnel >.>) but it doesn't mean I'll never be good at this game.

1-2 months for easier insanes? i guess im not a common person