@^: Didn't I say WHY that is invalid? At least I wasn't like "it is in osu standard --> it is bad --> so, no", like you said.

Ok let's see previous argument for an example. I admit that I was a bit aggressive tone but the essential is this: "We do not prefer to raise OD to make Taiko map hard. Instead, we are using different ways. So we set certain recommendation in OD to make mappers not abusing this. Your idea is based on experiences in osu standard, so it does not always suit in Taiko."

Whenever I told about differences I always told you guys what exactly is different and how/why it is different, not like "it is different, so no". If I really argue like THAT simple logic you said, my posts had no need to be that long, seriously. If you criticized my attitude I might not be this mad but logic? meh.

ziin criticized some of our basic rules with misunderstandings, and I thought that is due to his lack of experiences as Taiko players, so I said like that. I swear that I didn't explain like the way you said.
(I might be too sensitive about being intervened by osu standard guys, but this is also based on my experiences. osu standard players/mappers generally lack Taiko experience so even I explained about some different features in Taiko several times they end up ignore that, unless I shout like this. *sigh*)

I personally think this is an insult cause you ignored every basis of statement that I've made via miss-simplified it to stupid logic. (Seriously, even if those statements are a bit jerk but you can't deny all my effort like this. I know, I was aggressive, but did I merely attack someone without any reasons or try to have some logical basis? Meeeh, think whatever you want.) I just can't discuss about the matter anymore like this, so I'll just sit and watch for a while. Have fun.

I guess I'll be banned soon cause I'm against high-ranking guys again, so I guess I need to nominate successors of my current work, lol.

I thought it was stupid to use high OD, since like, 25% of the lane is cut off on osu!taiko. Seriously, do you just want to make it even more handicapped for us?

OD5 is a trade off. We get less lane, bigger hit box.

(when I said I won't push this at all, I meant it).

I agree 100% that it's better to make the map harder through other means than changing OD. I just don't think that an increased OD ruins the play experience, which is why a recommendation of as close to 5 as possible as a guideline would be excellent.

Also, my ideas are based on many rhythm games, not just osu standard. Thank you lepidopodus for explaining things for me, it really helps and you do a good job.

MMzz wrote:

Well recently i've been useing a transparent hitburst for taiko (Just like most players do with osu! so they only see when they hit a 100), the regular one is annoying on stream maps and such. And cuts down on all the flashy stuff.

Doing this, removing video, and/or denying storyboards is completely against what peppy wants for osu! (in general). While I agree with you that it makes things easier, this should be a personal and conscious choice of the player to do so. Taiko is already fully skinnable on any map (unless the toggle doesn't work for beatmap specific skins which have taiko components in them?). Since custom skins are skinnable, videos are always removable, and 99% of the time taiko SBs don't work well and are removed in the modding process (or the author doesn't want a storyboard) with the other 1% being a well made storyboard custom fit for taiko, I strongly recommend you keep the rules as simple as possible and don't make rules about pointless stuff that doesn't matter.

Backfire wrote:

I thought it was stupid to use high OD, since like, 25% of the lane is cut off on osu!taiko. Seriously, do you just want to make it even more handicapped for us?

In linear rhythm games, there is a trick to make the game easier. It is called screen shrinking, which cuts off some of the notes which lets you see less notes on the screen at the same time. All you have to do is make the window smaller, or cover up the window with something, for example, the side of the screen. Effectively this increases the notes' rate of approach, making the game overall easier. Having a 25% longer lane would be very similar to slowing the slider speed down 25%.

Come on, this Overall Difficulty discussion is so meaningless. If it doesn't fit to a map, you can mention it in the modpost. Just setup the guideline, that the overall difficulty should match the difficulty of the song (so if you use high BPM patterns and streams you can't expect an average advanced player to hit within a small window OD8 may provide)

We don't setup the rules to skip the modding. If you think, the OD doesn't fit, mention it in a modpost. And stop crying about the OD, since OD in osu!standard plays pretty different on Taiko (own experience, when I can SS some songs on high OD on standard easily, I can't in Taiko)

And lepi-dono. You don't need to feel insulted. But as far as I see this is going to end in a harsh opinion exchange and less in a well-done discussion with constructive suggestions with a resulting conclusion to which we can agree to.

Stop heating up this stuff or else mm will close this again. Thanks.

@ziin : get your point so video can be kept for player's fun~

99% of the time taiko SBs don't work well

that reminds me http://osu.ppy.sh/s/31395 a well made taiko SB
Well except ^ I can't recall any other taiko SB except those name tag SB.

maybe we can say that "taiko SB should not be on the taiko bar cause it's useless and distracts players?"

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/27509 this is another good taiko SB (and if you hate it you probably hate authentic taiko).

I haven't seen many taiko SBs. I wanted to make ono's taiko in pulse have a storyboard, but he expressed his distaste towards SBs, which is something we have to respect when it comes to a mapper. In the same token, we have to respect when a mapper wants as storyboard.

Just wanted to throw in that osu! Taiko diffs are often longer than TnT originals and contain more complicated patterns, so lower OD makes sense. They also only contain circles (balloon notes and drum rolls don't affect accuracy), so you won't get any "free 300s" like sliders and spinners in Standard osu!
Also, mods. If Taiko maps all had higher OD, Hard Rock would be extremely difficult to play; OD 7 with HR is equal to OD 9.8, and getting an S on a circle-only map consisting mostly of complicated streams is really hard (Even in Standard osu! where you have sliders and spinners, high accuracies with OD 9.8/10 are rare). DT increases the effective OD as well.

Just a few thoughts why a recommendation of an OD around 5 makes sense IMO

Sorry about my previous "behavior"

Ono, a "rule" to let a mapper change his taiko map should be examined on a case to case basis, not an overall thing.
Why I say this is because sometimes it may be appropriate to replace if the mapper is gone, or if the mapper refuses to make some changes or reason with the one who wants to replace. It's not that I disagree that these things SHOULDN'T happen, but they do, and we can't do much because it's the mappers choice.

OnosakiHito wrote:

Taiko guest diffs
It is not allowed to replace another mappers Taiko guest diff. with his own, without contacting and discuss/talk about this with him personally.

I don't want to show examples here, but it happened allready. Severel times now(and I'm really angry about this). The newest case isn't even a week old.

This makes me wonder, [...] . It's a guest diff, which means it's up to the mapset organizer on whether to change it or not. Herp.

@Backfire: I agree.

But:

Why I say this is because sometimes it may be appropriate to replace if...
...the mapper is gone, or if... - this is a special case. It is obviously that a project leader may delete his diff. and take another one.
the mapper refuses to make some changes or... - sure, but deciding it alone...? http://osu.ppy.sh/s/31419 - In this case(okay collab) all collab members have been asked what they think about one weird part and also other modders and players too. In a group it has been decided.
...reason with the one who wants to replace. - one... that's too less.

My point is more about the rush somone is doing because of a diff..
Isn't it also enough to suggest someone to remap it and give reasons why, instead just to say for example ,,overmapped!/terrible!/..."?
If the one don't want to remap it, other people can be asked for this case and also the Taiko-mapper itself.

It's incredibly rude to change a guest mapper's difficulty without permission or to remove the guest difficulty without notifying them first.

being rude =/= rule.

OnosakiHito wrote:

Pulse - as you say - was a really nice SB, but it was pretty meanless to keep it because the scrollbar(where the notes appear) has overlay the SB so it was mostly not seeable.

In the case of pulse, I was going to move it down so it wasn't obstructed by the taiko bar, which wouldn't have been hard to do at all.

ziin wrote:

It's incredibly rude to change a guest mapper's difficulty without permission or to remove the guest difficulty without notifying them first.

though I think there's something that rule rules, while moral rules the rest. We don't need to put such "rules" there though it's trivially correct.

@Ono I think you're talking this one:

avoid containing two taiko diff of similar difficulty in the same mapset.

In this case I think it's better to leave for mapper's own decision, every diff could hv its own difficulties and experience bringing to players, like
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/26891
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/28765
we can see we have two taiko diff of similar star rating and number of notes, but the style is quite different each other.

That rule regarding guest mapper's diff is more of a general rule than a Taiko specific rule, as such it has no place in this thread, if you want to discuss something like that make a new thread regarding guest diffs, although i have to say... it's more of a moral or common sense thing, plus if you edit someone's diff without their permission they'll know better about making difficulties for you next time.

Hey guys, I just moved a few posts to prevent more off topic, try to focus on the matter and behave please.

@ziin, Sakura, wmf: Mh, I think you are right. I agree with your views.
@Gonzvlo: I see, thank you.

So, let's discuss about the allready mentioned points, for now:
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
- reccomendation to use claps, not whistles for kat

Point one: I would suggest to write it down in recommendet section or just leave it how it is.
Point two: I would suggest to write it down in recommendet section or just leave it how it is.

In the recommended section we have allready one point: Taiko Custom colors.


Recommended =/= rules. It is just a reommendation, but to mentione such points is maybe not bad.

OnosakiHito wrote:

1. Custom combo colours
   Custom combo colours do not really matter to taiko as they will be overridden in actual gameplay. The case is the same with combo numbering, but you may wish to use the numbering to mark out red/blue notes visually within edit mode (assuming no custom colours have been set), this would make modding for other people easier and could make mapping easier:
   

I think this, and the "reasonable hitobject placement" are great examples of "ways to increase the number of errors in a map". Not only do you have to properly hitsound things, but you have to make sure it's the right color and put in the correct place in the play area.

Ozzy's taiko difficulty in this beatmap has a number of "incorrect" new combos. Now, either the new combos are incorrect, or the hitsounds are incorrect. I'm assuming the new combo is incorrect in this case, and fixing it would essentially be a waste of time because the end result is no change in the taiko difficulty.

If you want to include "recommendations" to help modders mod and mappers map (plus adding more stuff to do for the mapper), go ahead, just know that you may end up fixing stuff that doesn't matter at all.

As I said earlier, it would be better if a way to slow the map down in test mode were implemented (there is a workaround in the next paragraph). Short of that happening, I don't see any of this having the desired effect of making it easier for modders and mappers alike.

Using claps is probably a good idea too, but I'd like to point out that using something like AIBat to bookmark all the whistles and claps in the song would go much further than recommending a hitsound, since you can see what's a don and what's a kat on the timeline. Finally you can use the taiko skin as your default skin if you really want to "hear" it in the editor.

I would rather program the editor to show D/K in some way. Using New Combos for this purpose would make adding Tag support difficult.
Instead, I would suggest that NCs be used in the osu! way.

@ziin: Well, I think this depends also on how tidy someone in the editor is?
@mm201: wmfchris, mentioned this once before. But yes, this would be really good. Probably more like awesome.

I had no time in the last two weeks to post something, so I will start again. (Pretty dead here, huh?)
Anyway, let's talk about the points we allready have:

- reccomendation to use claps, not whistles for kat
Many people have wish that, so let's take it as recommendation for now. Or maybe mm201 would do the same as for the custom coulours...?

- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
We could add this into recommendation, too since it is not a must, just a help for modders? Seams okay?

- should be monoton streams with hitfinish(kkkkK/ddddD) be banned?
As you know, I am for stream-finishes if it is a long stream(see the rules - first post) and the question from omegaflo is good.
I think monoton streams should be also allowed because we don't need to restrict so much, since we want to keep the space for free mapping, too.
So or so, monoton streams will be used if they are usefull. And for new people we have the experienced mappers/modders who can help them.

- Exact limit for finishes needed(take the rules in the first post as starting point)
For an answer, I need to know what HS2 means, sorry. orz
After we talked about the other topics, I will mention this once again, since it will be probably a long discussion.


Please tell me what you think about it. This is also dedicated to the Taiko-People. urg

HS is just for multiplier to standard note scroll speed. For example, HS2 = x2.0 if basic SV is 1.4. Japanese Taiko guys are using the word HS frequently, so some of us prefer that word too, I guess.

Ah, I see. Yes, aabc told me that some time ago. Now I remember. Thank you, lepidopodus.
After we talked about the other topics, I will mention the ,,big notes on streams" once again, since it will be probably a long discussion.

should be monoton streams with hitfinish(kkkkK/ddddD) be banned?

Well, assuming the pattern fits the music, if ddddD is banned I don't see why kkddD is ok, reversely, if any type of 5-plets ending with finishes is fine I don't see why ddddD is not permitted.

Exact limit for finishes needed(take the rules in the first post as starting point)

I don't see the relationship between limiting finishes and the multipliers of timing sections (I rather not to use that specific terms since many may not know, and I think it's the same for the official rules to avoid that term), that reminds me the ending of Black Rose Apostle. The appropiateness of putting finishes refers to the song, not be anything else.

Finishes in the stream are not that hard, they are just confusing imho.

Rules wrote:

The Slider Velocitys, 1.40 and 1.60 should be used

Question, how exactly does switching to something other than this affects gameplay?

Authenticity does not count

That's why it's a guideline. I wish taiko speed wasn't variable.

However since it is variable, SV 1.4 does a pretty good job at reading 4-5 notes ahead, much like what a standard osu difficulty should attempt to do when choosing AR.

SV 1.4 is the SV that 1/4 streams overlap slightly each other, while SV1.6 is that 1/4 streams just separates, but overlap slightly for 1/6, and they are best for players to read the notes.

and, if SV are set in other values, it affect difficulty of notes reading. low SV cause serious overlapping, and high SV greatly reduces reaction time.

wmfchris wrote:

should be monoton streams with hitfinish(kkkkK/ddddD) be banned?

Well, assuming the pattern fits the music, if ddddD is banned I don't see why kkddD is ok, reversely, if any type of 5-plets ending with finishes is fine I don't see why ddddD is not permitted.

I would say that just monoton stream should be permitted because, I'm worred that cases like kkddK could be abused or discussed about why for example xoxoX is not allowed.
But also because there are more cases with monoton streams or monoton streams with a different endnote(oo...ooooX).

Exeptions: At the end of a minimum 8-plet or 5-plets long 1/4 stream were a climax sound is clearly hearable.

...now that I look at it, I'm fine with the SVs being played around 1.4, not being exactly 1.4...

...my main problem now is that the scroll length is still seriously short. It's around a whole stanza short on a 1.4SV played map compared to the original game. This basically makes things that are normally a challenge to become ridiculously difficult on osu!Taiko, and I mistakenly fired shots at people's SV choices before. I pointed out this scroll length disparity forever ago but I don't know where it just went... I know peppy replied about it one time but I forgot where it went

Made new changes to the rules: viewtopic.php?p=1275325#p1275325

wmfchris wrote:

should be monoton streams with hitfinish(kkkkK/ddddD) be banned?

Well, assuming the pattern fits the music, if ddddD is banned I don't see why kkddD is ok, reversely, if any type of 5-plets ending with finishes is fine I don't see why ddddD is not permitted.

OnosakiHito: I wrote following down for now ,,Exeptions: At the end of a minimum 8-plet or 5-plets long not complex 1/4 stream were a climax sound is clearly hearable.".
It is clear now that streams like kkdkddkD are not allowed. But to say monoton streams is also wrong, since xxxxoooX seams to be still okay.
Maybe saying something like ,,max pattern diff. in a stream is xxxxoooO/xxxxoooX". I don't know how this is called, 4-plets in a stream? lol

Exact limit for finishes needed(take the rules in the first post as starting point)

I don't see the relationship between limiting finishes and the multipliers of timing sections (I rather not to use that specific terms since many may not know, and I think it's the same for the official rules to avoid that term), that reminds me the ending of Black Rose Apostle. The appropiateness of putting finishes refers to the song, not be anything else.
OnosakiHito: I will add this soon.

@Zekira: Well, it's right what you said, but it ende up with my thoughs in this thread. It was something like: This would be a huge gameplay changing in Taiko-osu!, it's like the preliminary stage of reseting the scores from players. Also BG's/SB's would be messed up and maybe much more.

Probably it's something we need to wait for and discuss more about it?
(finding this thread would be a beginning lol)

Edit: Maybe it would be not a bad idea to change ,,recommendations" to guidelines?
So we could handle this easier and most thinks would be more clear.

Rules -> everything in this section need to be followed
Guidelines -> everything in this section don't need to be followed, it is just a recommendation.

Rules: you may not break these ever
Guidelines: under special circumstances these may be broken
Recommendations: these are recommended but not fully necessary

This sounds better, yes. Thank you.
Editing first post at the moment and talking with people in the #twc chanel about the rules.

New guideline added - I'm pleased to receive gramma improvements lol

TAIKOCALYPSE MASTER RACE

New recommendation added

1. Reasonable hitobject-placement
   Hitobject placements dosen't really matter to taiko, too, since the hitcircles are automatically converted into the one and only x-axis, but you may wish to use it in an organized way:
   
   PICTURE

   

Difficulty Settings and Song Setup has been moved from rules to guidelines!

I will check the rules one more time, after that they should be more like finished. I will announce this in some Taiko threads.

OnosakiHito wrote:

New guideline added - I'm pleased to receive gramma improvements lol

1. Diff. Name
   Don't use any custom or no-sense diff. names because, people will barely find those kind of diffs, also they don't show the lvl of the Taiko diff..
   The normal and recommended use of a diff. name is in most cases XXX's Taiko or XXX's Taiko Kantan/Futsuu/Muzukashii/Oni/Inner Oni/Ura Oni.
   Under certain circumstances - depends on modders/communitys decision -(e.g. project-leader wants unified diff- names), the diff. name may have a slight change.
   It is also allowed to use a personal custom-name which is used permanently, such as for example: ,,Taikosaki(OnosakiHito), Taikocalypse(Backfire) or Taikolor(Mr Colour)".

Is "Xaiko" allowed in the personal custom-name cause? :/

@^: "Xaiko" would be allowed in the momentan guideline.
Only question you should ask your self is: ,,Dose some one use it allready?" and ,,When do I want to use it?"
Personaly, I would recommend to use such names just for your hardest diffs because we still want to keep e.g. diff-names like ,,Taiko Oni", but it's your choice at all.

So or so I need to talk with some people about this.

Edit: Oh, found today a Xaiko diff.. lol

My hardest ones... Alright, I got it. (y) Like this one?

And nope, I found that name myself.

I'm just popping in to say that taiko specific guest difficulties are still guest difficulties. Why should the naming of such be treated any differently than Mapper name's <insert taiko difficulty name here>? Name claiming has never been an issue before, even in standard, so why should it become an issue with taiko specifics?

In regards to rest moments, one could consider a "rest" as lasting for as long as a bar. In osu!stream, there are no breaks, so there can be sections of one two bars to give the player a rest. The suggested gap of a beat isn't this severe and would definitely not be long enough to count as a break. Basically, if the editor doesn't insert a break automatically, then there is no break and therefore no problem.

rests are relative concept depends on the song. Some song trivially don't fit with breaks and not even a short one. Make some reasonable pace variation is enough.

@XK: Oh you understand me wrong. I just mean you need to check if anyone else had such a name before, because otherwise your diff could be asociated with the other guy.

@TheVileOne:
- Well, rather want to clear that now as to have problems with names in the future. Some people tend more and more to use unecessary names. Also in osu! it is still easier to see what for a diff this is because of the star lvl for example. In Taiko it's not that case.
- I agree to Slider Velocity.
- Oh? I don't mean breaks, I mean little rest moments. Those are used in every Taiko map.
This one for example not: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/30730 That's not good for the stamina of players and is a generel agreedment here.

@D33d:
Same what I said to TheVileOne. It's just considered as 1/1 or 1/2, moments were a song has no mainsounds/etc..

wmfchris has explained it better I guess.

OnosakiHito wrote:

@XK: Oh you understand me wrong. I just mean you need to check if anyone else had such a name before, because otherwise your diff could be asociated with the other guy.

I don't think I'll be able to check it... too many people lol. Therefore, I'm going on a hiatus atm, because of this. I'm playing with my cousin's account at the moment though, quite legit.

@XK: Try to play my Infinite taikosaki with the SV 1.60.

Anyway, moved SV into guidelins and changed Finishes to this:

Finish Notes
- These notes should not be used in 1/4 or 1/6 or 1/8 streams, even at the beginning or the end. This is because the player is supposed to hit this type of note with both keys corresponding to the note's colour and because they overlap the related notes.
- Consecutive finishes-streams are discouraged unless the BPM is low(SV 1.60 is here recommended, to avoid overlapping).
Exeptions: Every stream that has "xxooxxooX" or harder patterns need to have a 1/2 space between stream and finish. That means using finishes on following streams were a climax sound is clearly hearable is allowed: "xxxxxxxx...xxxxO", "xxxxoooo...xxxxooooX"

What I would recommend is, having a 1/4 cluster with one finish at the end should be acceptable if required (like the climax sound you described earlier), but only if BPM is below 150 and the pattern is simple (simple being a monotone cluster or max of two switches between red and blue eg "xxooxxX"), and never in any case should anyone spam finishes and notes in a single 1/4 cluster eg "xXoOoOXxxX". If a 1/4 cluster made up of all finishes is deemed required, scroll speed must be above x1.5 of the song's BPM (in OODain's case it's x1.67 of the normal)

OnosakiHito wrote:

@XK: Try to play my Infinite taikosaki with the SV 1.60.

I'm already dead, Ono xD

My comments on the rule can be found on the Taiko Playersthread.

aquabluu wrote:

What I would recommend is, having a 1/4 cluster with one finish at the end should be acceptable if required (like the climax sound you described earlier), but only if BPM is below 150 and the pattern is simple (simple being a monotone cluster or max of two switches between red and blue eg "xxooxxX"), and never in any case should anyone spam finishes and notes in a single 1/4 cluster eg "xXoOoOXxxX". If a 1/4 cluster made up of all finishes is deemed required, scroll speed must be above x1.5 of the song's BPM (in OODain's case it's x1.67 of the normal)

Blue - agreed, it doesn't need further explaination

Red - I believe it's hard to define a clear cut BPM that 1/4 can be placed, the marginal case is very controversal... and if finish-stream is deemed to be necessary (which is a very rare case), I think SV1.0x of its normal is enough because they don't cover each other.

Well it's all very situational, I just set some values that can be changed anytime. I think this is up to the individual map and whether it's comfortable to have a 1/4 finish cluster though.

Are people realing debating over finish notes at the end of streams...?

I thought lepid and I killed that discussion already.

lepidopodus wrote:

@ziin: 大打音 is so-called neta-map. That means it is extremely exceptional case. Don't expand it too much. If similar map got submitted in osu, we might allow that but only after long long discussion.

I think that'd be fun to play though. Maybe I just like air. gogo unranked Tairko maps.

(by the way, I do not care on this. While I don't mind finishes, I'm also not a good taiko player and my opinion does not matter very much here. I'm fine with making finishes completely unrankable. The point is that even a 100% authentic taiko map would have a difficult time being ranked in osu!taiko, if at all.)

Okay, how about minimate it much more?
As lepidopodus said, Don't expand it too much. If similar map got submitted in osu, we might allow that but only after long long discussion.

So or so finishes were discussed everytime and somtimes some mappers want to keep it but don't do because of discussions. So let's move this problem under guidelines (or keep it in rules) and say:

Seams better?

Make unusable middle-stream Finishes ( Rule ), Beginning/End Finish Notes usable but discouraged ( Guideline or Rule )

1. unsuable middle-stream Finishes & beginning-stream finishes
2. End finishes usable but dicouraged

Beginning(overlapping by finishes) is worser as ending(overlapping by normal hitcircle)

spliting it would be... possible, I guess?

Isn't that was first proposed a long long time ago?

I don't think so? Or I didn't recognize this post before.

Middle -> Prohibited by Rule, Reason: Obvious ( suggest splitting stream )
Start -> Highly Discouraged by Guideline, Reason: They have sense sometime.
End -> Avoid Random using by Recommendation, Reason: They're easier to play and to use.

OnosakiHito wrote:

I don't think so? Or I didn't recognize this post before.

OnosakiHito wrote:

Okay, stop please for a moment.

Before any new ideas are coming up, first discuss about the rule it self, please. After that you can use new ideas and opinions. But not before.

1. Finish Notes
   These notes should not be used in 1/4 or 1/6 or 1/8 streams, even at the beginning or the end. This is because the player is supposed to hit this type of note with both keys corresponding to the note's colour and because they overlap the related notes.
   Exeptions: At the end of a minimum 8-plet or 5-plets long 1/4 stream were a climax sound is clearly hearable. Consecutive finishes-streams are discouraged unless the BPM is low(SV 1.60 is here recommendet, to avoid overlapping).
   Example: AU - Infinite of Nuclear Fusion [Taiko Oni]

Things got at the moment really messed up here. I will aske some BAT's to clean the thread if necessary.
If this should happen, I will add this into the second post two, what has been deleted.

the middle ground would be only xxxdK be allowed as a guideline, if that. Backfire, ozzy, Rokodo, and maybe lepi all say a big "NO" to any big notes in 1/4 streams, even at the end of screams. The points I made earlier are still valid (big notes aren't impossible, and can be fun to some people) but a lot of people despise them with a passion, especially on osu. Since the users really need to make the rules, we need to follow their lead.

The best reason to disallow these notes is that it is unauthentic. While you can cite difficulty as a reason, I wouldn't do so, because there should never be a limit to difficulty as long as it is theoretically possible. We can discourage hard maps, but we shouldn't outright ban them.

They can be royally abused and thus could make maps hard to read.

The BEST way to describe what is "acceptable" is if it speeds up into the finish, or you're using fake (doubled) bpm/sv.

What does it mean by overlapping notes?

When a finish covers up a regular note.

Why can't we just stick to authentic rules.
Oh wait noone even maps authentic anymore.

Okay. May I make some insight of a new rule?

No note must be visible within the track of other notes due to an inherited SV change.

I've really hate when a slider velocity just plummets and you see this note moving within all the other notes, because it's got an x50 or now it would be x65.

MMzz wrote:

Why can't we just stick to authentic rules.
Oh wait noone even maps authentic anymore.

we have been over this.

TheVileOne wrote:

Okay. May I make some insight of a new rule?

No note must be visible within the track of other notes due to an inherited SV change.

I've really hate when a slider velocity just plummets and you see this note moving within all the other notes, because it's got an x50 or now it would be x65.

no. this is not necessary and will be caught in modding. you don't have to make a rule for everything.

WTH not?


That just means you can't go slow, then fast, then immediately slow again.

There's no reason for this....

Unless you're going to add more, I'm going to consider your post as spam Ziin.

it can go fast-slow-fast and viceversa, maybe it's better saying "no note must overlap because of slider velocity changes"

Yes. That's what I mean. It's kind of difficult to find an example, because only so many maps have this where there is one stray note moving among all of the other notes. It's annoyingly hard to hit.

Those already get caught in the modding process anyways.

Rest Moments
Every specific Taiko diff. need to include rest moments. This means to avoid the use of constantly 1/4 notes and add some 1/1 moments.

This should be a guideline, not a rule in my humble opninion. I think that if a person wants to make a streamfeast - let him, why not? Especially if a mapper does not want to have 1/1 notes.

And I dislike this one as well -_-'

Finish Notes
- These notes should not be used in 1/4 or 1/6 or 1/8 streams, even at the beginning or the end. This is because the player is supposed to hit this type of note with both keys corresponding to the note's colour and because they overlap the related notes.
- Consecutive finishes-streams are discouraged unless the BPM is low(SV 1.60 is here recommended, to avoid overlapping).
Exeptions: Every stream that has "xxooxxooX" or harder patterns need to have a 1/2 space between stream and finish. That means using finishes on following streams were a climax sound is clearly hearable is allowed: "xxxxxxxx...xxxxO", "xxxxoooo...xxxxooooX"

I can understand not being able too se the note - mappers fault, but not being able to click the buttons - isn't it our own, players' fault?

@TheVileOne: http://puu.sh/lZJ8
@Taiko: rest moments is mean to be have. You may have a part where is none, but not the whole song along.
Finish notes can't be hit in streams. Especially not nit in high bpms.
Oh need to go to school sorry. lol

OnosakiHito wrote:

@Taiko:
Finish notes can't be hit in streams.

That's not entirely correct^^, but it's ok, I get your point.

Yeah, not entirely, but really really hard and not recommendet because of that, to do so.

OnosakiHito wrote:

Information: Circle Side and Approchal Rate have no effect in Taiko

Size?
Aproach?

Stickied this since it doesn't make sense to be down below with the individual standard rules threads right now.

@ikari_kyon: Sorry for that. After everything is finished, I will let this check by other people once again.
@Sakura Hana: Okay, thank you, I guess.

Finishes Note rule has been changed a bit again

1. Finish Notes
   
   1. These notes should not be used in 1/4 or 1/6 or 1/8 streams, even at the beginning or the end. This is because the player is supposed to hit this type of note with both keys corresponding to the notes colour and because they overlap the related notes. Under certain conditions and many discussion there may be made an exception for 1/4 end-hitfinishes.
   2. Consecutive finishes-streams are discouraged unless the BPM is low(SV 1.60 is here recommended, to avoid overlapping).

Also I have some new infos for you guys.
This rules are going to be translated in the next days to chinese, japanese and I hope to korean too, to involve the asia community more into this, since they have many good opinions.

Further informations will coming.

Edit:

[Main thread]
English - t/72569 - OnosakiHito

[Translations]
中国(chinese) - t/80152 - wmfchris
日本(japanese) - t/73281 - Suzully
한국어(korean) - XXX - ???

Here're some translations from the Chinese taiko mappers.

ISHIDAMITSUNARI wrote:

一些看法 :

1. imo finish in the ending of BPM180 1/4 should be permitted.

2. Flashing kiai should be permitted unless they affect reading the notes

3. A clear-cut rule for 1/8 should be given, e.g. BPM140+ no 1/8; BPM120-140 no more that 1/8 5-plets, etc.

4. hitsound (whistle v clap) in editor is not that important and should be used to fit the song (i.e. some fit with whistle)

5. A clear range of SV should be set for different BPM as well.

6. custom skin is possible to appear in taiko gameplay so I don't think it's to be banned

sp3 wrote:

1. taiko BG should be required

2. Don't use slider in maps with 1/3 music because slider = 1/4

3. Letterbox during breaks should be removed.

4. Flashy SB/Vid should be removed artificially.

Numbers wrote:

1. Difficulty setting: AR/CS shouldn't be unreasonbly low because that affects score multiplier.

2. imo 1/8 in BPM 105 or below is ok, and 1/6 should be ok for all time.

3. BPM multiplier should be restricted to like 1.5x, 0.75x, 0.5x, 2x, etc but not 0.8x, 0.95x,...

4. streams should not exist between two neighbouring sliders.

kpy wrote:

Being a player I oppose finishes on 1/4 1/6 1/8

climbb wrote:

1. I oppose finishes on 1/4 or above because hitting both keys is supposed to hit the finishes in osu! taiko (in ordinary ways of playing), they are only acceptable in very low BPM songs like BPM120 or below.

2. "playability" of 1/8 is hard to define but it doesn't need a clear banning, such conditions would be ideal for 1/8:

i) BPM140 or below; AND
ii) 1/8 is clearly auidable OR 1/8 has clear meaning in the song.

3. Video should not be artificially removed. If they affects gameplay they have the right to use no video but artificially removing video destroys the oppotunity for all players to watch the video in taiko gameplay.

Kanarin wrote:

If there's clear accent in the music, simple stream with finish at the end is acceptable for all BPM like ddddK

Flashing kiai is not allowed in standard, and shouldn't be in taiko either.

I agree with climbb regarding finishes: I'm all for forbidding finishes in streams altogether.

I'm fine with 1/8 under 150 BPM, but ONLY IF THERE CLEARLY IS 1/8 IN THE SONG.

Videos and SB shouldn't be removed for Taiko difficulties, they're part of the mapset after all.

yes, we can refer some of them to the current solo rules stuff and I'll explain to them.
=========================
finishes on ending of 1/4: imo it's only ok at very low BPM (e.g. 110 or 120) + CLEAR accent in music + simple stream

1/8: yes, imo they are only ONLY if there're CLEAR 1/8 in the music

Taiko BG: imo this is more like a suggestion because there are many songs that fit for solo BG (some ex. from my maps http://osu.ppy.sh/s/25491 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/24626 http://osu.ppy.sh/b/149947 http://osu.ppy.sh/b/79035)
=============================
some are worth discussion listed below:

1. Don't use slider in maps with 1/3 music because slider = 1/4
2. Letterbox during breaks should be removed.
3. Difficulty setting: AR/CS shouldn't be unreasonbly low because that affects score multiplier
4. streams should not exist between two neighbouring sliders.

wmfchris wrote:

Here're some translations from the Chinese taiko mappers.

ISHIDAMITSUNARI wrote:

一些看法 :

1. imo finish in the ending of BPM180 1/4 should be permitted. Right now finish is on every BPM allowed as long as the notes dosen't overlap, too much.

2. Flashing kiai should be permitted unless they affect reading the notes This need to be discussed with more people. In my opinion it should never be allowed. Having some short kiai breaks which are some seconds long in fitting sections is okay.

3. A clear-cut rule for 1/8 should be given, e.g. BPM140+ no 1/8; BPM120-140 no more that 1/8 5-plets, etc. This need to be discussed more.

4. hitsound (whistle v clap) in editor is not that important and should be used to fit the song (i.e. some fit with whistle) This is just a recommended guideline. Using whistle is okay, but not recommended since clap = original kat.

5. A clear range of SV should be set for different BPM as well. Need to be discussed more.

6. custom skin is possible to appear in taiko gameplay so I don't think it's to be banned Right now it is premited. Just Custom-Hitbursts are not allowed.

sp3 wrote:

1. taiko BG should be required I will add this in the next update in Recommendations section for now.

2. Don't use slider in maps with 1/3 music because slider = 1/4 Sounds resonable. Some discuss requiered.

3. Letterbox during breaks should be removed. To mention it in the guidelines should be enough.

4. Flashy SB/Vid should be removed artificially. This is hard to consider, people still can delete flashy SB's or use no-video. Further discussion coming.

Numbers wrote:

1. Difficulty setting: AR/CS shouldn't be unreasonbly low because that affects score multiplier. keep it as lvl 5 should be okay. But so or so we don't know the real affect of it.

2. imo 1/8 in BPM 105 or below is ok, and 1/6 should be ok for all time. On low BPM's 1/8 is okay. I forgot to mention it in the rules because of many changes.

3. BPM multiplier should be restricted to like 1.5x, 0.75x, 0.5x, 2x, etc but not 0.8x, 0.95x,... Need some discussion.

4. streams should not exist between two neighbouring sliders. At the moment the guidelines says the same. In some cases we may do it.

kpy wrote:

Being a player I oppose finishes on 1/4 1/6 1/8 Still on discussion. But most people seam to be fine with it(even aquabluu and Zekira)

climbb wrote:

1. I oppose finishes on 1/4 or above because hitting both keys is supposed to hit the finishes in osu! taiko (in ordinary ways of playing), they are only acceptable in very low BPM songs like BPM120 or below. Hitting them with both keys is an invalid reason if the finish is another colour as the stream (xxxxooooX)

2. "playability" of 1/8 is hard to define but it doesn't need a clear banning, such conditions would be ideal for 1/8:

i) BPM140 or below; AND
ii) 1/8 is clearly auidable OR 1/8 has clear meaning in the song. Need to be discussed more.

3. Video should not be artificially removed. If they affects gameplay they have the right to use no video but artificially removing video destroys the oppotunity for all players to watch the video in taiko gameplay. I agree. But as I said before this needs also some discussions and borders.

Kanarin wrote:

If there's clear accent in the music, simple stream with finish at the end is acceptable for all BPM like ddddK I agree.

Said discussion will be talked about with other taiko mappers.
Thank you chris! I will contact you guys for a new multi-talk soon.

The thing is that Flashing kiai should never have been permitted on Standard either, it was on the old guidelines.

wmfchris wrote:

Don't use slider in maps with 1/3 music because slider = 1/4

This can be fixed with setting a new BPM at 1.5x. It's better to lie about the real BPM than to limit the map in any way.

wmfchris wrote:

Difficulty setting: AR/CS shouldn't be unreasonbly low because that affects score multiplier

I don't understand the reasoning for limiting AR/CS.

wmfchris wrote:

streams should not exist between two neighbouring sliders.

Sure.

wmfchris wrote:

Don't use slider in maps with 1/3 music because slider = 1/4

Blatant lies.
Set the tick rate to 3 and your sliders will have triple rolls.
There should be a rule, 1/3 snap maps *must* use tick rate 3. x1.5 BPM is unrankable.

mm201 wrote:

Blatant lies.
Set the tick rate to 3 and your sliders will have triple rolls.
There should be a rule, 1/3 snap maps *must* use tick rate 3. x1.5 BPM is unrankable.

Except for the dual time signature maps where you would have to use x1.5 BPM. If it's still "unrankable" then it's a terrible limitation and needs to be implemented for all modes of play.

So, I guess I'll give some of my opinions to the rules ~

AR/CS settings : I'm fine with all settings as they don't affect the gameplay. Maybe we can let the mappers to choose their own AR/CS so that minor score adjustment becomes possible ? Because as I know, the score depends on the diff settings ~

1/4 finishes : imo 1/4 finishes at the end of stream are acceptable as they're not that hard to hit. Just don't put too many when the BPM is high. But still I won't use them in my maps because they look a bit visually untidy ( the finish stacks the previous note )

1/8 : This depends on the song. Avoid them when the BPM is quite high ( ~ 160 BPM. No exact value for ban needed imo. Just treat them case-by-case ? ). Don't make them long ( strongly suggest 5 as max ) and only place them when they really fit the song / necessary ~

Sliders in 1/3 songs : As I know, there's no method to control the frequency of hits in sliders. So I oppose using sliders in 1/3 songs as they are really hard to hit ( don't match the song and they sound off ). And yes, there should be a function to control the slider hit rate in Taiko :<

Video : Don't remove them. The reason is same for CBB. I fully agree with that ~

Kiai flashes : Maybe it's me, but I think as long as they don't distract the gameplay quite a lot, they should be allowed. I personally think that flashes can be parts of styles, and therefore they should not be banned for no reason. ( Maybe for those who oppose them, give me some reasons for that ? I don't think "solo diffs are banned from flashes so Taiko should be banned too" is a convincing reason to ban them. Taiko is just different from solo. Otherwise we won't have Taiko-only diffs, right ? )

SV changes ( BPM multipliers ) : For me, 0.5x to 1.2x are all fine. Anything lower than normal should be readable, and those higher should be possible to sightread and hit. I personally like to use multipliers of 1 digit ( eg 0.8x, 0.9x, 1.1x etc )

I may add more later. Can't think of much to write for now.

^ Someone can't read.

ziin wrote:

Except for the dual time signature maps where you would have to use x1.5 BPM. If it's still "unrankable" then it's a terrible limitation and needs to be implemented for all modes of play.

I think an exception can be made in the case where it changes mid-song. This applies to all modes.
Remember to set your time signature to 6 (or 3 for 0.75) so that your barlines don't suck.

mm201 wrote:

^ Someone can't read. I actually read that, but I didn't test if it works yet. So I just assume that there's no way to fix that. Sry sbout that

And yes, this is my 500th post ._.

I don't understand the reasoning for limiting AR/CS.

In most of the taiko maps points per hit is 1100. If AR/CS is too low so that the difficulty rating decreases that will affect scores of taiko diff in which that difficulty rating may not fit the general difficulty of the diff.

In most case, unreasonably high won't affect the difficulty rating (unless it's extremely streamy then the points per hit goes to 1260), but too low AR/CS will make points per hit dropping to like 940 or even 780 which is a misfit with the diff.

mm201: wow I don't know that before lol. If it's available I think it's necessary to write that into rules.

===================

Numbers wrote:

The break time for very slow songs (like BPM120) could be half beat instead of 1.

How about we remove slider ticks because they are bad.

Ever notice that it's near impossible to get a perfect start on them when a stream leads into them. ( I can give plenty of examples )

I don't understand why sliders can't just have a set amount of hits to them according to length, but you can hit them as fast as you want.

And thus this silly issue about 1/3 sliders would be fixed.

I miss unlimited sliders. >:

Unlimited sldiers are so easily makroable. And why should you limit the amount of hits? Sliders would turn out to be like a spinner, just that you dont need to hit dkdkdkd but inputwhateveryouwant until you reached the limit.

There were several reasons when they got removed back then >:

I can think of a more tolerant algorithm than the current one for rolls but implementing it would be unfair to existing scores.

You guys impllimented Hyper fruits, that was unfair to Ctb scores. =P

Hitting them with both keys is an invalid reason if the finish is another colour as the stream (xxxxooooX)

For the considerable amount of two-finger-players like me, this matters. Players playing with specific techniques should not benefit from the rules-----Do you play a real drum with four sticks？

@hknoboru: I played the original TnT and I play the TataCon on my PC. Personally I can hit them and other people would say the same or the controvers opinion.
So let's move to the question ,,what we are playing with"? Since this a keyboard based game which can be played with 4 keys this allegation is a bit wobbly.

I consider it a drum simulatation game. Anyway as there exists such players we cant force them to give up fast afterstreamfinishes, this results in a general loss of score when compared to players playing with four fingers

I disagree with putting anything other than a k or d (small) after a stream (1/4 1/6 or 1/8). Anything like that looks ugly (ddddddddK looks unbelievably ugly, or sliders right after streams) and are usually unplayable (unless certain conditions...).

you can simply implement that new algorithm in newer ranked maps only (obviously ranked after the introduction, i know it could cause bugs anyway ) and in the autoplay.

@HakuNoKaemi: That's something I have wanted to talk with mm201 about, since I discussed with some other known taiko mappers about this. Probably I will send him a PM soon, because he has much to do.

Edit: Got mm201 answer about this. Further informations are coming.

Edit2: @v: Oh I see now what HakuNoKaemi, ment. lol

I'm not changing the slider judgement algorithm.

OnosakiHito wrote:

@hknoboru: I played the original TnT and I play the TataCon on my PC. Personally I can hit them and other people would say the same or the controvers opinion.
So let's move to the question ,,what we are playing with"? Since this a keyboard based game which can be played with 4 keys this allegation is a bit wobbly.

just because you can hit them doesn't mean everyone can.

If we are looking at this realisticly a taiko drum should never be hit like that.

And besides, if you hit the middle of the drum it resembles a both side hit sometimes? I was told this by players before.

Odaril wrote:

I disagree with putting anything other than a k or d (small) after a stream (1/4 1/6 or 1/8). Anything like that looks ugly (ddddddddK looks unbelievably ugly, or sliders right after streams) and are usually unplayable (unless certain conditions...).

Are you saying what the notes look like counts towards how good/bad the map is?
lol