What makes it different from xxxxooooX ?
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In this sense I'll suggest 5:00 as the max draining time (well, Taiko mode has no "draining" lol)
Not a drum kit.
Carry-on
They 'MAY contain'. There is no NEED. Pretty clear for me.
Real Taiko drummers can really do those pattern... and a game's map not an art?
Restrict them to Harder{Harder[Harder(Harder)]} difficulties?
I saw that while playing a slow map... Forgot which one tho. orz.
Finish-notes
There will be no other permissions for now as the one we have allready in the rules.
ooooxxxxO <- This notes can be played and dosen't interupt player to fc a map at all. This has just something to with experience, not unplaybility. It is playable and can be even played on drum. ooooooooO is barely playable, that's why it is not permitted.
Also having ooX is not recommendet at all because this can be quickly abused by some mappers. We can mod it away, but sometimes it will happen that some of these maps would be accidentally ranked.
And don't forget: It was allready hard enough to get the agreement of the community to use finishes on 9-plet long streams, so we don't need to force our luck too much to have more exeptions.
BPM Changes / Overlaping notes
This guideline/rule is still not clear enough, so I will rewrite it when I have time.
wmf's and Loctav's description has been deleted for now. That what they wrote down into the Rules:
I'm agains that for now. I don't say this should be fully permited, but there should be some gray-zones like when the song has a fitting part for this.
I will give two examples:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/35211 - [Taiko Oni] @ 02:20:051 - This will be hard to fc on the first try, but after some it is totally possible and playable.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/144429 - [Taikosaki] @ 02:00:370 - You can see the slider is overlaps the big KAT, but since it is not a small note, you can see when you need to hit it.
I think it is clear enough what I want to show and say with those examples.
Discuss.
People may badly hit them (like a BIIIG DESYNC) :V
I think we should ALSO think about 1/1 streaming before saying if that kind of stream should or should not be banned from ranking.
I can hit ooooooooO up to 230 1/4 BPM (Which is 920 1/1) but some players can't play these easily.
As long as it's not overused (Climax stuff) I'd say yes, if the song is not too fast (Max. 900 1/1 streams) and if the song is faster than 225 BPM (rare cases tho), at least 1 beat between the finisher and the next note, because fingers may fail to hit the finisher properly.
I'd ban finishers on 1/3 divisors tho (Not 1/3 themselves)
1/3 is fine. It doesn't cover the previous note like 1/4 does.
EDIT:
and 1/3 finish is fine.
EDIT2:
arken might do that.
For example, what is so bad about setting a custom hitsound set of kick/snare when the song you are mapping to is a Rock/Metal song?
Noone is stopping you from useing your own custom hits on your own, but it shouldn't be forced.
In general, that's like saying "Oh, something's good enough, I'm not going to even take a chance to try to make it better."
Also you guys got a taiko bat now *runs*
In addition, you haven't come up with anything besides "I know the community best (i.e. I am the community) and the community says custom hitsound are bad because they are."
I don't know how much you're really into music or rhythm, but whenever you hear a nice beat and you try to play along with it with whatever's on your desk, you would generally try to find a lower tone (e.g. tapping your textbook) to sound the bass (this is represented by don in Taiko), and a higher tone to sound, well, the higher tone. This is why music can be created with just a bass and snare drum, or the flipside of a bucket. As long as you have something to present both of the tones that don/kat currently represent, why is there a problem?
In addition, without any trying, there won't be any mess or improvement. But since we already know how to "fix" the "possible mess" (just revert to this rule), why can't we strive for improvement? Why has osu! allowed different hitsounds, if the default hitsounds were intended to be used since they are included?
In osu! modding, there are many people to know which hitsounds fit the song and which do not. I'm sure Taiko mods are capable enough to know which hitsounds are appropriate and which ones are not. We just haven't had any opportunity to do it yet. I propose a change to this rule such that:
Custom hitbursts are not allowed. Custom hitsounds must be appropriate in that dons are clearly represented by a deeper/lower tone than kats, which are to be represented by a higher/lighter tone.
And if this goes awry, we'll revert. How's that?
Also why do you think we would add more than 2 hitsounds to Taiko?
And please do not enforce us to get accustomed to things are not familiar with us? (BTW, was it that easy to do that?)
Huh, these MATs and BATs are always same, no matter it's past, present, future. Now you Taiko guys might know why I always so aggressive about these kind of matter.
EDIT:
Just wait for the other people who could come into this thread.
This rule already have changes, yeah I'm telling you about big note in the end of stream. That changes have done cause we think there is a consensus, and we think it is ok and there is enough valid reasons. But about this, no consensus yet, not so solid reasons yet. Since enabling this possibly irritates lots of players we need to be more cautious but you are kinda... nagging.
EDIT:
I've said that I don't care if there is option like 'ignoring map-specific hitsound' or something like that, then I don't care. But enabling map-specific hitsound without giving a choice, then I think that is bad. Since we don't have any kind of system now, I oppose map-specific hitsound.
Taiko is not based on hitsounding at all, at the moment. Because there's no option to change to other hitsounds because of this rule that should not even exist, all you're doing is creating one object that represents don, and one object that represents kat, which happens to be the sounds like the one you use now. Whether these hitsounds you use are the authentic ones or not, don is just a representation of the lower tone (bass) and kat is just a representation of the higher tone.
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well, why not xxxxxxxxX ? (theoretically easier than the xO type)
you could permit Oxxx / Xooo (as long it play much much much good and direct, ) they could "have sense" but being difficult to play if not intuitive, you should pretty much say to try to use it if their using have sense )
The xoxoxoxoX could be allowed. But yeah, if people use them they should pretty much have sense.
you could permit Oxxx / Xooo (as long it play much much much good and direct, ) they could "have sense" but being difficult to play if not intuitive, you should pretty much say to try to use it if their using have sense )
The xoxoxoxoX could be allowed. But yeah, if people use them they should pretty much have sense.
No it's not easier, because you'd have to press the same key twice in a row in a stream.
We discussed the variations of finish streams at the end/beginning/inbetween several times and we came to the conclusion, that the finish streams should only be allowed at this kind of patterns.
We cleary deny same coloured finishes, because you have to play (for me as example) sdsdsd(sd) - (or for default settings: djdjdjdj(DJ))
Try to imagine that you stream on standard with two keys and then have to hit the last note with both keys.
We cleary deny same coloured finishes, because you have to play (for me as example) sdsdsd(sd) - (or for default settings: djdjdjdj(DJ))
Try to imagine that you stream on standard with two keys and then have to hit the last note with both keys.
The thing with different colored finishes is that you have to hit them with different keys than you were streaming with, so they are easier to hit.
Topic Starter
Loctav said everything.
This has been dicussed many times and ,,xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX" is the absolut final decision.
No ...xoxO or anything else.
Also who don't like them, don't need to map them. Everything is moding based.
This has been dicussed many times and ,,xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX" is the absolut final decision.
No ...xoxO or anything else.
Also who don't like them, don't need to map them. Everything is moding based.
I think you should add into the Finish Note section that finishers should be used WHEN THERE IS A FINISHER SOUND IN THE SONG (Cymbols and stuff)
I've been seeing a lot of random finishers these days.
I've been seeing a lot of random finishers these days.
We don't need to add to the rules that hitobjects need to fit the music. (which also means that finishers should only be placed where it fits)MMzz wrote:
I think you should add into the Finish Note section that finishers should be used WHEN THERE IS A FINISHER SOUND IN THE SONG (Cymbols and stuff)
I've been seeing a lot of random finishers these days.
Topic Starter
Different versions has been posted into the first post.
Taiko_BG case will be also added to Recommendation.
Taiko_BG case will be also added to Recommendation.
Just curious, what is the maximum draining time for a Taiko difficulty to be ranked, and not approved.
Does it follow the same time set in the rules for standard?
Does it follow the same time set in the rules for standard?
Probably should, albeit authentic TnT rarely ever goes over 2 mins (if ever) but we have a lot of ranked long Taiko maps so i guess we could just put the same limit for Taiko maps.NoHitter wrote:
Just curious, what is the maximum draining time for a Taiko difficulty to be ranked, and not approved.
Does it follow the same time set in the rules for standard?
There are some cases though with 4:30+ minute songs.
They are mapped with breaks such that the standard difficulties are under 4:30 min draining time.
If there is a Taiko, then the mapset would have to be approved just for the Taiko diff due to Taiko not having breaks.
Perhaps some leeway should be allowed for cases like this?
They are mapped with breaks such that the standard difficulties are under 4:30 min draining time.
If there is a Taiko, then the mapset would have to be approved just for the Taiko diff due to Taiko not having breaks.
Perhaps some leeway should be allowed for cases like this?
Since Taiko does not really affects whether the mapset is approved or ranked, Currently it depends on draining time of standard maps.
(But if we have to make the limitation for Taiko maps, limit of draining time should be longer than 4:30, I think. Yeah. We don't have many breaks in our maps.)
And I'd rather say avoid using breaks unless the song is really long or mood of the part of the song is suit well with no notes. I don't like disallowing something, usually.
(But if we have to make the limitation for Taiko maps, limit of draining time should be longer than 4:30, I think. Yeah. We don't have many breaks in our maps.)
And I'd rather say avoid using breaks unless the song is really long or mood of the part of the song is suit well with no notes. I don't like disallowing something, usually.
Set it to 5 minutes or the same total length of the corresponding standard diffs.
Yes, we don't use breaks as far as possible, but they are not required, since we don't need to rearrange ourselves like in standard (where the pen starts to glide out of the hand or the desk starts to end while playing with mouse)
Yes, we don't use breaks as far as possible, but they are not required, since we don't need to rearrange ourselves like in standard (where the pen starts to glide out of the hand or the desk starts to end while playing with mouse)
I guess so. The only problem is like in solo diffs 4:30 of draining time + breaks may last like 5 minutes, while taiko diff may fill up those breaks making the draining time exceeds 4:30.NoHitter wrote:
Just curious, what is the maximum draining time for a Taiko difficulty to be ranked, and not approved.
Does it follow the same time set in the rules for standard?
In this sense I'll suggest 5:00 as the max draining time (well, Taiko mode has no "draining" lol)
Topic Starter
How about leaving it how it is? Since this wasn't never a problem or issue before.
hmmm
also how long the longest stream are allowed in taiko?
thanks ^^
Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream.it means finish note allowed in short stream like oX or ooX as long the finish note alternates with the previous note ?
At the end, finish streams may allowed under following pattern constellations:
xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX
also how long the longest stream are allowed in taiko?
thanks ^^
I would not suggest using finishes in triplets.
Also there is no limit to stream length, but your map needs this resting moments - regardless of this, streams need to fit the song and only-stream maps are stupid in most cases and modders will request modifications like splitting it up.
Also there is no limit to stream length, but your map needs this resting moments - regardless of this, streams need to fit the song and only-stream maps are stupid in most cases and modders will request modifications like splitting it up.
Topic Starter
Edit: One of the known bugs appeard in the diff.. All timelines are gone, this will be fix'd soon as possible.
I have some news for you guys:
I talked to mm201 for permission to upload and rank on the second osu server some maps which are related to the rule discussion to see how people react to some cases like for example "1/4 finish streams".
Here you can find the map: http://ha.ppy.sh/s/180
To have acess on the server, you need to open ,,osume.exe" and tick ,,use test build".
Note that just people with supporter tag are able to start it.
Test the maps and give us your opinion about the severel cases(if you have some).
I have some news for you guys:
I talked to mm201 for permission to upload and rank on the second osu server some maps which are related to the rule discussion to see how people react to some cases like for example "1/4 finish streams".
Here you can find the map: http://ha.ppy.sh/s/180
To have acess on the server, you need to open ,,osume.exe" and tick ,,use test build".
Note that just people with supporter tag are able to start it.
Test the maps and give us your opinion about the severel cases(if you have some).
Information about the maps and what they contain:
Taiko Oni: 1/4 stream finishes, ooX, spinners after stream, spinner/slider two times in a row, SV changes, overlapping by SV change
Taiko Inner Oni: 1/4 stream finishes, extrem SV changes, 1/6 notes, overlapping by SV change
Taiko Ura Oni: Extrem SV changes, 1/6 notes, high OD and HP
Note: Futsuu, Kantan and Muzukashii included to have a full Taiko no Tatsujin map-set.
Taiko Oni: 1/4 stream finishes, ooX, spinners after stream, spinner/slider two times in a row, SV changes, overlapping by SV change
Taiko Inner Oni: 1/4 stream finishes, extrem SV changes, 1/6 notes, overlapping by SV change
Taiko Ura Oni: Extrem SV changes, 1/6 notes, high OD and HP
Note: Futsuu, Kantan and Muzukashii included to have a full Taiko no Tatsujin map-set.
OK, Chris is too lazy, so I rather paste my opinion here myself
Taiko diff name
I think "Taiko" must included in the difficult name to identify...
Some name like "Jubiko" is kind of confusing, that some people may not know that it is a combined name (taiko and jubeat)
which may cause them selecting the wrong difficulty (most likely the solo players)
But something like "Taikosaki" or "Taiko extra" can state very clearly it is a taiko difficult.
However, to keep mapper creative on the map name, this should better be placed in Guidelines instead of Rules, and judge by the modder and the mapper of that map
Deleting StoryBoard?
I think it is not nessasary to add this rule/guideline
Since it will need the coorperation between the mapper and the taiko guest mapper
Also the rules/guidelines are specify on the behavior of taiko mapper, it should not give the limit to the original mapper.
(There is no this kind of rule/guideline yet)
1/4 streams' big circle placement
I think there should be none of exception because of pattern (I don't oppose exception on BPM)
As firce said (lazy chris have not put it here yet),
it may not be fair to some player in their style (between using 2 fingers and 4 fingers)
for 2 fingers player, they may be harder the hit the big circle at the last note in "xxxxxxxxO" than 4 fingers player
Also, as Chris said,
「Same side should not be continuously hit in 1/4 stream」(he state that in Chinese ver post)
if Same side have been continuously hit in 1/4 stream, then it will be 1/8 (1/4 with single hand = 1/8 with both hands)
so the exception of "xxxxxxxxO" is not reasonable enough.
However, I will not exclude the possibility of making it into the guideline although it may not be the best way
Taiko diff name
I think "Taiko" must included in the difficult name to identify...
Some name like "Jubiko" is kind of confusing, that some people may not know that it is a combined name (taiko and jubeat)
which may cause them selecting the wrong difficulty (most likely the solo players)
But something like "Taikosaki" or "Taiko extra" can state very clearly it is a taiko difficult.
However, to keep mapper creative on the map name, this should better be placed in Guidelines instead of Rules, and judge by the modder and the mapper of that map
I think it is not nessasary to add this rule/guideline
Since it will need the coorperation between the mapper and the taiko guest mapper
Also the rules/guidelines are specify on the behavior of taiko mapper, it should not give the limit to the original mapper.
(There is no this kind of rule/guideline yet)
1/4 streams' big circle placement
I think there should be none of exception because of pattern (I don't oppose exception on BPM)
As firce said (lazy chris have not put it here yet),
it may not be fair to some player in their style (between using 2 fingers and 4 fingers)
for 2 fingers player, they may be harder the hit the big circle at the last note in "xxxxxxxxO" than 4 fingers player
Also, as Chris said,
「Same side should not be continuously hit in 1/4 stream」(he state that in Chinese ver post)
if Same side have been continuously hit in 1/4 stream, then it will be 1/8 (1/4 with single hand = 1/8 with both hands)
so the exception of "xxxxxxxxO" is not reasonable enough.
However, I will not exclude the possibility of making it into the guideline although it may not be the best way
Sorry but - I didn't understand what I just read.
My apologizes but I don't get your stuff in any single way.
I guess I have to ask Wmf on my own >_>
My apologizes but I don't get your stuff in any single way.
I guess I have to ask Wmf on my own >_>
Topic Starter
I understand your points matthe. @Loctav you can ask me. lol
diff names
Hey, the rules has been also changed in meaning, that's not good. I support what you said matthe since that was what I wrote down before and will also look through all rules to avoid such cases again.
(Yes, I didn't had a brief look through it after chris and loctav changed it for better understanding, sorry)
1/4 finishes
As I said before, ooooooooO is not allowed and I will also not change the rule anymore since this has been discussed now many years.
First reason not to take it was ,,it's not authentic", then the reason was ,,unplayable".
Both cases dosen't fit anymore nowadays, but the rules has been still made by considering this.
diff names
Hey, the rules has been also changed in meaning, that's not good. I support what you said matthe since that was what I wrote down before and will also look through all rules to avoid such cases again.
(Yes, I didn't had a brief look through it after chris and loctav changed it for better understanding, sorry)
1/4 finishes
As I said before, ooooooooO is not allowed and I will also not change the rule anymore since this has been discussed now many years.
First reason not to take it was ,,it's not authentic", then the reason was ,,unplayable".
Both cases dosen't fit anymore nowadays, but the rules has been still made by considering this.
My explaination is like
Instead of "you hit with the same finger consecutively" we could consider the drums in which "the same side of the drum is hit consecutively": the case "hit with the same finger/hand but different side of instrument" is common in sth like drum set while "hitting the same side of the instrument consecutively" is a bit odd.
Instead of "you hit with the same finger consecutively" we could consider the drums in which "the same side of the drum is hit consecutively": the case "hit with the same finger/hand but different side of instrument" is common in sth like drum set while "hitting the same side of the instrument consecutively" is a bit odd.
oh, god so many information makes my mind blow out of it, im gona try to keep it on it <_<
^@ read the OP, especially the latest version and state your opinion. Right now, they discuss about big-notes at stream ends. If you need any assistance catching up in this discussion, ask Onosaki, me or wmf ingame (or any discussion participant of your trust)
not permitting ...oO is like forcing a drummer to not use a Kick Drum after a normal tom or a Crash after some Hat..
Topic Starter
No ,,oO".
Reason was given.
Reason was given.
If you have a Taiko Guest diff. the mapper must be in the Name of Difficulty?? Or is just an option? I didn't understood that 
I know, cause sometimes even I thought that kind of thing would be suitable for the music, but we should know that this isn't an art.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
not permitting ...oO is like forcing a drummer to not use a Kick Drum after a normal tom or a Crash after some Hat..
This is a taiko drum.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
not permitting ...oO is like forcing a drummer to not use a Kick Drum after a normal tom or a Crash after some Hat..
Not a drum kit.
Carry-on
mancusojuanmattos wrote:
If you have a Taiko Guest diff. the mapper must be in the Name of Difficulty?? Or is just an option? I didn't understood that
They 'MAY contain'. There is no NEED. Pretty clear for me.
I think finishes in streams which are still do-able (in this case, ..ooX and ...xxO is the easiest imo) is okay. You get full points just by pressing both sides without having to get the thick yellow border mark though. >_>
same.MMzz wrote:
This is a taiko drum.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
not permitting ...oO is like forcing a drummer to not use a Kick Drum after a normal tom or a Crash after some Hat..
Not a drum kit.
Carry-on
Real Taiko drummers can really do those pattern... and a game's map not an art?
Restrict them to Harder{Harder[Harder(Harder)]} difficulties?
You can go ahead and make a map with a 1/4 finisher, but it won't get ranked.
Feel free to make them unsubmitted.
CARRY-ON
Feel free to make them unsubmitted.
CARRY-ON
Finishers in streams :
ddddddddddK d
>Esc Retry. Nuff said.
At low BPMs I wouldn't mind (As low as people could play the ddddddd part with 1 finger) but really it's nonsense. Doing this increases the possibility of non-FCing (though it CAN be hit with 1 side) but the purpose of the finisher is to be hit by both sides. imo a Taiko map should be playable with keyboard AND drum so no, at high speeds (140+)
At 120-140... Avoid.
Below 120 it's possible but reasons should be CLEAR ENOUGH.
Off-Finisher : The Drumrolls should not be used within this range of BPM : 100-125 (1/8s) but CAN be used in 65-100. I tried to play some LOW SPEED songs (in this range) and they can be hit easily.
ddddddddddK d
>Esc Retry. Nuff said.
At low BPMs I wouldn't mind (As low as people could play the ddddddd part with 1 finger) but really it's nonsense. Doing this increases the possibility of non-FCing (though it CAN be hit with 1 side) but the purpose of the finisher is to be hit by both sides. imo a Taiko map should be playable with keyboard AND drum so no, at high speeds (140+)
At 120-140... Avoid.
Below 120 it's possible but reasons should be CLEAR ENOUGH.
Off-Finisher : The Drumrolls should not be used within this range of BPM : 100-125 (1/8s) but CAN be used in 65-100. I tried to play some LOW SPEED songs (in this range) and they can be hit easily.
Heavily depends on songs, the reason for no 1/8 sliders because there're no relavent rhythm in the music, and I don't see why even slower songs would contain 1/8s. If they really exist there's no problem with the 1/8 slider._Gezo_ wrote:
Off-Finisher : The Drumrolls should not be used within this range of BPM : 100-125 (1/8s) but CAN be used in 65-100. I tried to play some LOW SPEED songs (in this range) and they can be hit easily.
It was about ticks, but yeah that thing might be calculated with bounds (500 - 1000 BPM 1/1 for ticks ?)wmfchris wrote:
Heavily depends on songs, the reason for no 1/8 sliders because there're no relavent rhythm in the music, and I don't see why even slower songs would contain 1/8s. If they really exist there's no problem with the 1/8 slider._Gezo_ wrote:
Off-Finisher : The Drumrolls should not be used within this range of BPM : 100-125 (1/8s) but CAN be used in 65-100. I tried to play some LOW SPEED songs (in this range) and they can be hit easily.
I saw that while playing a slow map... Forgot which one tho. orz.
The only valid points are that they don't play well and they are hard to read due to taiko's note system (you don't read individual notes, you read the patterns, which is why a constant stream of notes in taiko is a bad thing).
if anything drums are easier than keyboard.
This is 105 BPM, for example, and filled to the brim with 32nd notes.
Just saying it depends on the music. It's a bad idea to ban drumrolls because of a glitch/feature in the game. If need be you can always trick the game into doing what you want so that you make the best map you can.
if anything drums are easier than keyboard.
dubstep can be considered 70 bpm, and at that bpm there would be a lot of 1/8. Of course that would mean that 1/4 at 140 BPM would fit equally.wmfchris wrote:
Heavily depends on songs, the reason for no 1/8 sliders because there're no relavent rhythm in the music, and I don't see why even slower songs would contain 1/8s. If they really exist there's no problem with the 1/8 slider.
This is 105 BPM, for example, and filled to the brim with 32nd notes.
Just saying it depends on the music. It's a bad idea to ban drumrolls because of a glitch/feature in the game. If need be you can always trick the game into doing what you want so that you make the best map you can.
(Tick rates - drumroll tick rate are gameplay stuffs and is clearly written that it will not be changed in this post if I remmber it correctly.)
Drumrolls allows a free stream solo (i.e. 1/4 2 beats slider can be kkdkkdkdk or ddddddddd) that does not goes well for me. If there's any chance to use a slider with less drum ticks, individual notes work better, so I don't see the reason to make slower sliders.
For the faster ones, "slider" is under suggestions are not a must, it depends on songs.
Drumrolls allows a free stream solo (i.e. 1/4 2 beats slider can be kkdkkdkdk or ddddddddd) that does not goes well for me. If there's any chance to use a slider with less drum ticks, individual notes work better, so I don't see the reason to make slower sliders.
For the faster ones, "slider" is under suggestions are not a must, it depends on songs.
Topic Starter
[04.28., 10:42] ,,BPM Changes" section has been added into Guidelines again - OnosakiHito
[04.28., 10:42] ,,Overlapping notes" section has been deleted from rules again due to less discussion - OnosakiHito
Ver. 1.0.3 avaible.
[04.28., 10:42] ,,Overlapping notes" section has been deleted from rules again due to less discussion - OnosakiHito
Ver. 1.0.3 avaible.
Finish-notes
There will be no other permissions for now as the one we have allready in the rules.
ooooxxxxO <- This notes can be played and dosen't interupt player to fc a map at all. This has just something to with experience, not unplaybility. It is playable and can be even played on drum. ooooooooO is barely playable, that's why it is not permitted.
Also having ooX is not recommendet at all because this can be quickly abused by some mappers. We can mod it away, but sometimes it will happen that some of these maps would be accidentally ranked.
And don't forget: It was allready hard enough to get the agreement of the community to use finishes on 9-plet long streams, so we don't need to force our luck too much to have more exeptions.
BPM Changes / Overlaping notes
This guideline/rule is still not clear enough, so I will rewrite it when I have time.
wmf's and Loctav's description has been deleted for now. That what they wrote down into the Rules:
Overlapping notes
Notes must not overlap due to slider velocity changes (green lines). BPM changes (red lines) are excluded from this rule.
Notes must not overlap due to slider velocity changes (green lines). BPM changes (red lines) are excluded from this rule.
I'm agains that for now. I don't say this should be fully permited, but there should be some gray-zones like when the song has a fitting part for this.
I will give two examples:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/35211 - [Taiko Oni] @ 02:20:051 - This will be hard to fc on the first try, but after some it is totally possible and playable.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/144429 - [Taikosaki] @ 02:00:370 - You can see the slider is overlaps the big KAT, but since it is not a small note, you can see when you need to hit it.
I think it is clear enough what I want to show and say with those examples.
Discuss.
I'll say this loud and clear: I wholeheartedly disapprove of the use of finishes on 1/4 (and even 1/3) streams whatever the reason may be. It never feels good to play.
I'm also generally against the use of SV changes in general because I see a plethora of foul examples where it has been handled poorly (this includes several TnT authentic maps, the most outrageous example being EkiBEN2000) so if SV change there is, it should firstly be a slight change, and shouldn't overlap notes in any way. BPM changes being obviously exempted from this.
I'm also generally against the use of SV changes in general because I see a plethora of foul examples where it has been handled poorly (this includes several TnT authentic maps, the most outrageous example being EkiBEN2000) so if SV change there is, it should firstly be a slight change, and shouldn't overlap notes in any way. BPM changes being obviously exempted from this.
- we'll still need a top limit for the playing time for ranked diff.
- I'm firm on the overlapped issue because all we are talking about is the readability in the first sight. Notes are supposed to be clearly shown at all time.
- I'm firm on the overlapped issue because all we are talking about is the readability in the first sight. Notes are supposed to be clearly shown at all time.
About finishers, I will say it once and for all : DON'T SPAM THEM. It confuses the player and play very terrible (I played one ranked map spamming finishers, it's almost unreadable.)
Fix'd_Gezo_ wrote:
About finishers on 1/4, I will say it once and for all : DON'TSPAMUSE THEM.
ooO=ooX
they have the same problems associated with them and should just be banned on all BPMs. There are enough taiko players who don't like finishes. But I think those taiko players are being stupid. If the map has a slow BPM the finishes can be weeded out in the modding process if need be, and the exception will be made there.
they have the same problems associated with them and should just be banned on all BPMs. There are enough taiko players who don't like finishes. But I think those taiko players are being stupid. If the map has a slow BPM the finishes can be weeded out in the modding process if need be, and the exception will be made there.
I think finishes are okay for 1/3, so long as it isn't like dD or kK, but dK and kD play smoothly for me and never caused issues.
Personally I love finishes, I just wish they didn't give you double points because you only get them if you hit both notes exactly at the same time.
Personally I love finishes, I just wish they didn't give you double points because you only get them if you hit both notes exactly at the same time.
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito wrote:
- Finish notes
Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream.
At the end, finish streams may allowed under following pattern constellations:
xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX
Small fix. You missed a word hereOnosakiHito wrote:
OnosakiHito wrote:
- Finish notes
Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream.
At the end, finish streams may be allowed under following pattern constellations:
xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX
People may badly hit them (like a BIIIG DESYNC) :V
I think we should ALSO think about 1/1 streaming before saying if that kind of stream should or should not be banned from ranking.
I can hit ooooooooO up to 230 1/4 BPM (Which is 920 1/1) but some players can't play these easily.
As long as it's not overused (Climax stuff) I'd say yes, if the song is not too fast (Max. 900 1/1 streams) and if the song is faster than 225 BPM (rare cases tho), at least 1 beat between the finisher and the next note, because fingers may fail to hit the finisher properly.
I'd ban finishers on 1/3 divisors tho (Not 1/3 themselves)
1/3 is fine. It doesn't cover the previous note like 1/4 does.
I agree with this idea, and in the musical perspective that's reasonable, too._Gezo_ wrote:
at least 1 beat between the finisher and the next note
Topic Starter
@Gezo: We could say that it's not allowed to use it in really fast BPMs and etc.m but it's not needed here. This can be modded away by people. We also don't want to see that people spam them.
I guess we should add one more time that they may use 1/4 finishes just if there is a clearly hearable sound for this.
Edit:
@chris: Maybe I misunderstand it right now, but with "musical" you mean there is rarely for example ooooooooX ? Because this wouldn't be right then since my genres I map have many of those cases.
Hey, we have now a japanese translation, too. Thank's to Suzully!
[Main thread]
English - t/72569 - OnosakiHito
[Translations]
中国(chinese) - t/80152 - wmfchris
日本(japanese) - t/73281 - Suzully
한국어(korean) - t/82259 - arien666
=================== Check the changes ====================
I guess we should add one more time that they may use 1/4 finishes just if there is a clearly hearable sound for this.
Edit:
- Finish notes
Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream.
At the end, finish streams may be allowed if there is a reasonable sound for it under following pattern constellations:
xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX
@chris: Maybe I misunderstand it right now, but with "musical" you mean there is rarely for example ooooooooX ? Because this wouldn't be right then since my genres I map have many of those cases.
Hey, we have now a japanese translation, too. Thank's to Suzully!
[Main thread]
English - t/72569 - OnosakiHito
[Translations]
中国(chinese) - t/80152 - wmfchris
日本(japanese) - t/73281 - Suzully
한국어(korean) - t/82259 - arien666
=================== Check the changes ====================
My bad, but I've been really busy..... Ok I admit, I'm lazy. I'll do that when I have time but I don't care if you get someone before I finish it. (Hmm, should I start to poke someone else?)OnosakiHito wrote:
한국어(korean) - XXX - ???
EDIT:
and 1/3 finish is fine.
EDIT2:
arken might do that.
Quite fast, huh? Good job anyway, arken.
Topic Starter
당신을 감사하십시오! That was really fast.
Got now 3 translations from 3 MAT's. lol
Got now 3 translations from 3 MAT's. lol
And suddenly the overlap rule is a rule-containg guideline again. Whyever. Was this reverse step discussed? I doubt that. Geeez.
arken1015 arien666
arken666
In BPM change section, there is an example how we can avoid overlapping notes when dropping speed of notes. Yeah I mean lowering note speed gradually by setting HS one by one. (I hope you get it...) Well personally I don't like it but it can be considered as a mapping technique. But I want to quote that, please avoid putting complex streams using that technique. This technique may looks good, but not so great to reading notes.
----
I guess we can make this rules/guidelines active if there isn't any more objections of suggestions, but I want to stress that, this guidelines/rules should be changeable with nice reasons and enough discussions. We weren't that strict, right?
Also please be flexible when apply guidelines. (Well, rules cannot be broken before we change it.)
----
I guess we can make this rules/guidelines active if there isn't any more objections of suggestions, but I want to stress that, this guidelines/rules should be changeable with nice reasons and enough discussions. We weren't that strict, right?
Also please be flexible when apply guidelines. (Well, rules cannot be broken before we change it.)
About the drumroll in a 1/3 song :
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/123616&m=1 I made a trick in this map to do so.
Let's make an example with 200 BPM, SV 1.0 (Examples with these numbers to get a better accuracy in numbers and mental calculus sdgadfsfa)
First, you have a 1/4 roll at 200 BPM, which gives 800 instead of 600. 600 1/1 in 1/4 gives 150 BPM. (Which is 0,75×the original BPM.)
Problem is, your scroll is not 200 anymore since you dropped by 0,25x, but you want to give the illusion it's STILL 200 BPM.
Scroll drops from 200 to 150 => 3/4. To go from 150 to 200, you'll need to use the INVERSE of 3/4 which is 4/3 or 1,3333333× the new bpm.
With SV 1,0 it will give 1,333333333
With SV 1,4 it will give 1,866666667
With SV 1,6 it will give 2,133333333
(You can still edit the osz file to get a better accuracy.)
You have one problem which is easily solvable, it's the measure bug, put 3/4 (if it's a 4/4 song)
If it's a 3/4 song... It's very hard. D: better put BPM ×3 and put time signature 9/4 LOL
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/123616&m=1 I made a trick in this map to do so.
Let's make an example with 200 BPM, SV 1.0 (Examples with these numbers to get a better accuracy in numbers and mental calculus sdgadfsfa)
First, you have a 1/4 roll at 200 BPM, which gives 800 instead of 600. 600 1/1 in 1/4 gives 150 BPM. (Which is 0,75×the original BPM.)
Problem is, your scroll is not 200 anymore since you dropped by 0,25x, but you want to give the illusion it's STILL 200 BPM.
Scroll drops from 200 to 150 => 3/4. To go from 150 to 200, you'll need to use the INVERSE of 3/4 which is 4/3 or 1,3333333× the new bpm.
With SV 1,0 it will give 1,333333333
With SV 1,4 it will give 1,866666667
With SV 1,6 it will give 2,133333333
(You can still edit the osz file to get a better accuracy.)
You have one problem which is easily solvable, it's the measure bug, put 3/4 (if it's a 4/4 song)
If it's a 3/4 song... It's very hard. D: better put BPM ×3 and put time signature 9/4 LOL
Topic Starter
lepidopodus wrote:
In BPM change section......
I do agree.
----
I guess we can make this rules/guidelines active if there isn't any more objections of suggestions, but I want to stress that, this guidelines/rules should be changeable with nice reasons and enough discussions. We weren't that strict, right?
Also please be flexible when apply guidelines. (Well, rules cannot be broken before we change it.)
I would like to do so, but since I have exams in one week I need to wait for now.
Yes, we will be still flexbile and the rules are going to be changeable even on approved status. But maybe that's something I need to talk to the BAT's and peppy soon.
Hi I'd like to bring up my concerns to this rule
Custom Hitsound Volume
Keep volume at a constant level (e.g. 80%) with the beat still somewhat audible.
Use the "Normal" audio sample set.
Why must you only use the normal audio set afaik TnT had custom hitsound sets and as long as the hitsounds are "DRUM" related I would see no problem with letting custom hitsounds being accepted as rankable.
Custom Hitsound Volume
Keep volume at a constant level (e.g. 80%) with the beat still somewhat audible.
Use the "Normal" audio sample set.
Why must you only use the normal audio set afaik TnT had custom hitsound sets and as long as the hitsounds are "DRUM" related I would see no problem with letting custom hitsounds being accepted as rankable.
Well, we agree with the hitbursts part, that's just obvious. But why are we against custom hitsounds? Even the authentic games come with alternative hitsounds that you can choose in the options. In certain Taiko games there are missions where you have to use a specific hitsound set to pass a map. Is it not enough that dons should just generally be a lower tone than kats, which should have a higher tone?OnosakiHito wrote:
- Custom hitbursts and hitsounds
You must not use custom hitbursts and hitsounds.
For example, what is so bad about setting a custom hitsound set of kick/snare when the song you are mapping to is a Rock/Metal song?
Nuff said.those wrote:
Even the authentic games come with alternative hitsounds that you can choose in the options.OnosakiHito wrote:
- Custom hitbursts and hitsounds
You must not use custom hitbursts and hitsounds.
Noone is stopping you from useing your own custom hits on your own, but it shouldn't be forced.
Topic Starter
@ztrot: What you mean is probably what those has mentioned? Because, the volumen I mentioned there has nothing to do with the custom-hitsounds. I will explain it it down below.
@those: Generelly they have no effect to taiko because the sounds are allways shown as kat/don as I know. Also they dosen't need to be changed in the editor since this would make the job for modding the maps just harder.
In case that overwriting the sounds is possible, it would be better to forbid it before people could abuse them, like for example spaming. - Modding can't avoid everytime such issues.
But the main reason is to keep everything uniformly since this isn't the Taiko-RPG game or osu! it self. If people really want to use custom sounds, they can look into this thread: p/780137
Also as I know the Taiko-Community it self is agains this use of sounds...?
@those: Generelly they have no effect to taiko because the sounds are allways shown as kat/don as I know. Also they dosen't need to be changed in the editor since this would make the job for modding the maps just harder.
In case that overwriting the sounds is possible, it would be better to forbid it before people could abuse them, like for example spaming. - Modding can't avoid everytime such issues.
But the main reason is to keep everything uniformly since this isn't the Taiko-RPG game or osu! it self. If people really want to use custom sounds, they can look into this thread: p/780137
Also as I know the Taiko-Community it self is agains this use of sounds...?
Yes it can!OnosakiHito wrote:
@ztrot: In case that overwriting the sounds is possible, it would be better to forbid it before people could abuse them, like for example spaming. - Modding can't avoid everytime such issues.
I didn't get this part at all.OnosakiHito wrote:
But the main reason is to keep everything uniformly since this isn't the Taiko-RPG game or osu! it self. If people really want to use custom sounds, they can look into this thread: p/780137
It is not about what the community decides, but what makes sense, remember your rules shouldn't be based off authenticity.OnoaskiHito wrote:
Also as I know the Taiko-Community it self is agains this use of sounds...?
What actually makes sense IS decided by the community.
I still deny to use custom hitsounds since the game mode is based in this two specific ones (the deep sounded Don and the high sounded Kat)
If you play real taikos,(those Japanese drums, u know) there are only these two noises you can produce.
It makes just no sense to put custom hitsounds to a mod, which is focused on it's very own hitsounds.
You can't just change this central gameplay element. It's too crucial that it must stay consistent.
And adding those custom hitsounds just ends that everyone goes deletes them and if you can even toggle to force-overwrite with your skin (like the cursor in standard), probably everyone would do that (unless the ones, who don't know about the option or the mapper self)
I still deny to use custom hitsounds since the game mode is based in this two specific ones (the deep sounded Don and the high sounded Kat)
If you play real taikos,(those Japanese drums, u know) there are only these two noises you can produce.
It makes just no sense to put custom hitsounds to a mod, which is focused on it's very own hitsounds.
You can't just change this central gameplay element. It's too crucial that it must stay consistent.
And adding those custom hitsounds just ends that everyone goes deletes them and if you can even toggle to force-overwrite with your skin (like the cursor in standard), probably everyone would do that (unless the ones, who don't know about the option or the mapper self)
Topic Starter
lepidopodus gaved many times examples where modding didn't helped at all. We don't need to start this discussion a third or 4th time.
And to be honest, I don't see why something should be changed that worked all the years smooth and well...?
I'm totally agains this, especially because in TnT Arcarde is no use of custom-sounds, to come back to your said authentic stuff, Sakura. This isn't a Taiko-RPG.
Most Taiko people are agains it and in this thread there wasn't even one objection. And to be honest, those people have at least to me a bigger value in this thread as osu! or ctb players, else this wouldn't make any sense here.
I understand exactly your point, even if you think I don't do. It makes sense to use a fitting sound for a certain song, but I will say it one more time:
This is Taiko. 太鼓, japanese for "Drum". It makes much more sense to use drum sounds instead any other custom things.
I'm done here.
That's why we had some problems with the osu! rules in the past and why it got into public dicussion, as I know. We don't need to make the same mistake in Taiko, that's why I, no... we consider the communitys voice. Especially because I'm not the Admin of Taiko, just a little announcer.Sakura wrote:
It is not about what the community decides, but what makes sense, remember your rules shouldn't be based off authenticity.
And to be honest, I don't see why something should be changed that worked all the years smooth and well...?
I'm totally agains this, especially because in TnT Arcarde is no use of custom-sounds, to come back to your said authentic stuff, Sakura. This isn't a Taiko-RPG.
Most Taiko people are agains it and in this thread there wasn't even one objection. And to be honest, those people have at least to me a bigger value in this thread as osu! or ctb players, else this wouldn't make any sense here.
I understand exactly your point, even if you think I don't do. It makes sense to use a fitting sound for a certain song, but I will say it one more time:
This is Taiko. 太鼓, japanese for "Drum". It makes much more sense to use drum sounds instead any other custom things.
I'm done here.
Tie this into mapping: "Oh, my map's good enough for bubble, so it's good enough for rank, and I'm going to reject suggestions that might make it better."OnosakiHito wrote:
And to be honest, I don't see why something should be changed that worked all the years smooth and well...?
In general, that's like saying "Oh, something's good enough, I'm not going to even take a chance to try to make it better."
Topic Starter
Better try to refute my and Loctavs other stronger arguments instead this one.
What you do is to compear pears with apples.
Also you and Sakura have two different opinions about authentic. If you guys really want to change something talk about it first together and give me then a solution, not questions or other stuff since you know that much about Taiko.
I feel really insulted. I can understand lepidopodus right now.
What you do is to compear pears with apples.
Also you and Sakura have two different opinions about authentic. If you guys really want to change something talk about it first together and give me then a solution, not questions or other stuff since you know that much about Taiko.
I feel really insulted. I can understand lepidopodus right now.
You guys dont use custom hitsounds, that's understandable, and you can continue doing so, just dont enforce it into other mappersOnosakiHito wrote:
Better try to refute my and Loctavs other stronger arguments instead this one.
What you do is to compear pears with apples.
Also you and Sakura have two different opinions about authentic. If you guys really want to change something talk about it first together and give me then a solution, not questions or other stuff since you know that much about Taiko.
I feel really insulted. I can understand lepidopodus right now.
Also you guys got a taiko bat now *runs*
Topic Starter
Other mappers like osu mappers? Sakura, please, this isn't the osu mod at all.
The Taiko community in generelly decided not to use it, so you need to follow this rule even as osu/ctb-player, MAT or BAT, too. And not in the other way that our rules follow the other communitys/socities.
And just to clear something: Even if I would like to change it, I can't. Do it if you want, but it's not my fault when many people are going to complain about this... ^^
Yeah we know and we are thankfull for this.
The Taiko community in generelly decided not to use it, so you need to follow this rule even as osu/ctb-player, MAT or BAT, too. And not in the other way that our rules follow the other communitys/socities.
And just to clear something: Even if I would like to change it, I can't. Do it if you want, but it's not my fault when many people are going to complain about this... ^^
Yeah we know and we are thankfull for this.
Hitsounds in Taiko are THE central gameplay element, force-changing them would feel similar to changing hitcircles into hitsquares in osu! Standard imo
It's easy enough to add a link to a skin with the desired hitsounds in the beatmap thread and set that skin as the requested skin in the editor.
It's easy enough to add a link to a skin with the desired hitsounds in the beatmap thread and set that skin as the requested skin in the editor.
if you use taiko skin in taiko mode, custom hitsound will not affect anything
Also custom hitsound volume is assigned to an specific difficult (as it can be changed in time section tag)
So why is this bothering us?
Also custom hitsound volume is assigned to an specific difficult (as it can be changed in time section tag)
So why is this bothering us?
Why do you talk like you're a god? Also, don't talk like you know osu! or CtB, since all you seem to know is Taiko. I feel really insulted. We don't have to come together to give YOU a solution. The only thing I've done is generalize the problem. More people have more Taiko experience than you think.OnosakiHito wrote:
I feel really insulted. I can understand lepidopodus right now.
In addition, you haven't come up with anything besides "I know the community best (i.e. I am the community) and the community says custom hitsound are bad because they are."
Those-dono, if you are only reading Onosakis stuff and generally ignore the others with given arguments (see Luna, me and matthewhln), then your arguments are invalid.
Stop trying to change stuff that worked pretty well so far.
I know that you try to open the doors for more creativity, but this is Taiko.
We are simulating and INSTRUMENT. It's like you start giving a piano guitar noises. Just quit it. You won't be able to make the taiko community agree.
Even if you have some valid points, you can't make us nuke this rule due to the enormous impact of hitsounds to the game mode.
And if you don't read everything and are unable to counter our arguments, then I can understand why Onosaki feels insulted.
Because you act as if your arguments weighted more than from guys who actually know how it works and especially why. (especially lepidopodus, which some of the BATs tried to oppose, too, and it turned out that the revolutioneers are the one without a clue about the game mode self - and failed hard)
No offense, those and Sakura, but you brought no valid reason to nuke this rule, yet.
Despite us, who brought several ones to let it stay alive.
Fill it with content, show us examples where it might work. And especially, show us hitsounds that respect the Don-Kat sounding purpose, that is given by this game mode.
(there are none despite the one in the default osu skin)
Stop trying to change stuff that worked pretty well so far.
I know that you try to open the doors for more creativity, but this is Taiko.
We are simulating and INSTRUMENT. It's like you start giving a piano guitar noises. Just quit it. You won't be able to make the taiko community agree.
Even if you have some valid points, you can't make us nuke this rule due to the enormous impact of hitsounds to the game mode.
And if you don't read everything and are unable to counter our arguments, then I can understand why Onosaki feels insulted.
Because you act as if your arguments weighted more than from guys who actually know how it works and especially why. (especially lepidopodus, which some of the BATs tried to oppose, too, and it turned out that the revolutioneers are the one without a clue about the game mode self - and failed hard)
No offense, those and Sakura, but you brought no valid reason to nuke this rule, yet.
Despite us, who brought several ones to let it stay alive.
Fill it with content, show us examples where it might work. And especially, show us hitsounds that respect the Don-Kat sounding purpose, that is given by this game mode.
(there are none despite the one in the default osu skin)
And why is there a problem with that? You're having an approach object reach its receptor; it's just in a different shape. In addition, I seem to recall a beatmap with hearts instead of circles, and there was no problem playing that.Luna wrote:
force-changing them would feel similar to changing hitcircles into hitsquares in osu! Standard imo
I present to you the prepared piano.Loctav wrote:
We are simulating and INSTRUMENT. It's like you start giving a piano guitar noises. Just quit it. You won't be able to make the taiko community agree.
Read p/1542056Loctav wrote:
Stop trying to change stuff that worked pretty well so far
You're saying Taiko isn't in need of more creativity. Why do you say that?Loctav wrote:
but this is Taiko
You say that as if you actually know more about how it works than the rest of us. Regardless of whether I feel insulted or not, the only thing you have against this is "We know better than you and we speak for everyone." That seems a little outrageous, considering the fact that we're the ones giving suggestions on possible improvement and you feel you're somehow in a position to reject all of it without giving valid reason.Loctav wrote:
And if you don't read everything and are unable to counter our arguments, then I can understand why Onosaki feels insulted.
Because you act as if your arguments weighted more than from guys who actually know how it works and especially why.
@1 This is not the point of playing a Piano at all. You know what I meant with this.
@2 Wow, you skipped the part with the "enormous impact to gameplay"
@3 Because Taiko consists of placing two colors of hitobjects in a row. Wow.
@4 We are not saying that ONLY. The point it, that this has happened a lot of times already (I should summon lepidopodus) and the outturn was ALWAYS the same.
The suggestion of "possible improvement" is a suggestion of "possible mess" in our eyes. We are not conservative and try to improve this, too, but THIS is really not required in my opinion.
I gave you valid reasons, btw. Just because you can't relate them, it doesn't mean they aren't valid at all.
@2 Wow, you skipped the part with the "enormous impact to gameplay"
@3 Because Taiko consists of placing two colors of hitobjects in a row. Wow.
@4 We are not saying that ONLY. The point it, that this has happened a lot of times already (I should summon lepidopodus) and the outturn was ALWAYS the same.
The suggestion of "possible improvement" is a suggestion of "possible mess" in our eyes. We are not conservative and try to improve this, too, but THIS is really not required in my opinion.
I gave you valid reasons, btw. Just because you can't relate them, it doesn't mean they aren't valid at all.
Just because you can't relate to playing a prepared piano, it doesn't mean that isn't the point of a piano. The piano has gone through hundreds and hundreds of years of changes and it just so happens that the post-modern era includes the prepared piano as an instrument.Loctav wrote:
I gave you valid reasons, btw. Just because you can't relate them, it doesn't mean they aren't valid at all.
I don't know how much you're really into music or rhythm, but whenever you hear a nice beat and you try to play along with it with whatever's on your desk, you would generally try to find a lower tone (e.g. tapping your textbook) to sound the bass (this is represented by don in Taiko), and a higher tone to sound, well, the higher tone. This is why music can be created with just a bass and snare drum, or the flipside of a bucket. As long as you have something to present both of the tones that don/kat currently represent, why is there a problem?
In addition, without any trying, there won't be any mess or improvement. But since we already know how to "fix" the "possible mess" (just revert to this rule), why can't we strive for improvement? Why has osu! allowed different hitsounds, if the default hitsounds were intended to be used since they are included?
Well, I know about how a rhythm is based and that there needs to be a bass tone and a higher tone. Whatsoever, osu!standard allowed custom hitsounds because they have almost no impact to the gameplay itself (okay, if you place them wrong, they may be VERY distracting, but they don't affect the gameplay SELF (clicking circles is regardless of what noise they make)
but for Taiko, the hitsounds are essential, since they determine WHAT to press. So having a too high variety between the hitsoundings is ending in a huge mess.
but for Taiko, the hitsounds are essential, since they determine WHAT to press. So having a too high variety between the hitsoundings is ending in a huge mess.
I see I'm starting to get to you.Loctav wrote:
too high variety between the hitsoundings
In osu! modding, there are many people to know which hitsounds fit the song and which do not. I'm sure Taiko mods are capable enough to know which hitsounds are appropriate and which ones are not. We just haven't had any opportunity to do it yet. I propose a change to this rule such that:
Custom hitbursts are not allowed. Custom hitsounds must be appropriate in that dons are clearly represented by a deeper/lower tone than kats, which are to be represented by a higher/lighter tone.
And if this goes awry, we'll revert. How's that?
Sorry Loctav, but you and Luna are taking this the wrong way, the hitsounds dont tell you what you press, nor how the notes look, they tell you what you hear when you hit them, the notes will still look red and blue, i don't see why this is bothering you so much, plus it's not like we would add guitar hitsounds but more like other possible drum hitsounds, because there are drum sounds in the world that arent just the default taiko ones.Loctav wrote:
but for Taiko, the hitsounds are essential, since they determine WHAT to press. So having a too high variety between the hitsoundings is ending in a huge mess.
Also why do you think we would add more than 2 hitsounds to Taiko?
We never said something about "more than 2 hitsounds".
Theoretically, the color tells you what to press, but practically you rely on the hitsounds to know when you change the pattern to play. You read the patterns but rely on the hitsounds to get it proper. Especially in Hidden mod, you rely even more on the hitsounds.
It bothers me, because it causes no improvement and pure distraction. You can get used to it, but you can also get used to hidden reverse arrows. Still it's considered as unrankable.
Theoretically, the color tells you what to press, but practically you rely on the hitsounds to know when you change the pattern to play. You read the patterns but rely on the hitsounds to get it proper. Especially in Hidden mod, you rely even more on the hitsounds.
It bothers me, because it causes no improvement and pure distraction. You can get used to it, but you can also get used to hidden reverse arrows. Still it's considered as unrankable.
Well, it's not that simple than you guys thought.
We all agree that hitsound is much more important in Taiko while it's not in osu standard. In Taiko we need to distinguish two sounds.
What we will hit will be decided by the colour of note, at least mostly. But you does not always hit the right keys unless you are a god-like player. How do Taiko players know that they hit their notes properly? And if they failed to hit properly, how do they decide which way to hit keys with not breaking combos or at least minimize lose of scores? This is the matter of hitsound cause hitsound is the result of how you actually hit.
When you hit the key, hitsound sounds. Taiko players hear it and react. This reaction should be happening in really short time. Since we need to distinguish sounds, even subtle change can be really irritating. (Not like osu standard. osu standard players only need to distinguish somehthing sounds or not.)
So that is why Taiko mappers and players here agree to not to enable custom hitsound. It isn't matter of authneticity cause lots of players actually use their custom hitsound, far from TnT thing. Yup, we oppose to map-specific custom hitsound but we don't care about player-specific custom hit sound.
Well we might reconsider when there is options like 'ignore map-specific custom hitsound' or something. Anyway, does custom hitsound works systematically? I never tried it before.
And please, do not cover characteristics by generality of rhythm games. It always happened since lots of MATs and BATs.... Well, you know what I mean.
(BTW, who's got BAT'ed while I was away?)
We all agree that hitsound is much more important in Taiko while it's not in osu standard. In Taiko we need to distinguish two sounds.
What we will hit will be decided by the colour of note, at least mostly. But you does not always hit the right keys unless you are a god-like player. How do Taiko players know that they hit their notes properly? And if they failed to hit properly, how do they decide which way to hit keys with not breaking combos or at least minimize lose of scores? This is the matter of hitsound cause hitsound is the result of how you actually hit.
When you hit the key, hitsound sounds. Taiko players hear it and react. This reaction should be happening in really short time. Since we need to distinguish sounds, even subtle change can be really irritating. (Not like osu standard. osu standard players only need to distinguish somehthing sounds or not.)
So that is why Taiko mappers and players here agree to not to enable custom hitsound. It isn't matter of authneticity cause lots of players actually use their custom hitsound, far from TnT thing. Yup, we oppose to map-specific custom hitsound but we don't care about player-specific custom hit sound.
Well we might reconsider when there is options like 'ignore map-specific custom hitsound' or something. Anyway, does custom hitsound works systematically? I never tried it before.
And please, do not cover characteristics by generality of rhythm games. It always happened since lots of MATs and BATs.... Well, you know what I mean.
(BTW, who's got BAT'ed while I was away?)
Correct. For example, a dkddk pattern sounds like kick/snare/kick/kick/snare, or low/high/low/low/high. It's a matter of getting accustomed to the idea of a high/low sound as opposed to reacting to only the authentic don/kat sound.Loctav wrote:
Theoretically, the color tells you what to press, but practically you rely on the hitsounds to know when you change the pattern to play. You read the patterns but rely on the hitsounds to get it proper. Especially in Hidden mod, you rely even more on the hitsounds.
I already said that it's not the matter of authentic or not. It is matter of map-specific custom hitsound should be allowed.those wrote:
Correct. For example, a dkddk pattern sounds like kick/snare/kick/kick/snare, or low/high/low/low/high. It's a matter of getting accustomed to the idea of a high/low sound as opposed to reacting to only the authentic don/kat sound.
And please do not enforce us to get accustomed to things are not familiar with us? (BTW, was it that easy to do that?)
Huh, these MATs and BATs are always same, no matter it's past, present, future. Now you Taiko guys might know why I always so aggressive about these kind of matter.
EDIT:
I explained why this is so irritating to Taiko players in previous post. I guess loctav already told similar thing.Sakura wrote:
[Sorry Loctav, but you and Luna are taking this the wrong way, the hitsounds dont tell you what you press, nor how the notes look, they tell you what you hear when you hit them, (...)
You're not reading my post, lepidon. I bolded the important part. And I didn't come here as a MAT; I came here as a Taiko player looking for improvements.lepidopodus wrote:
I already said that it's not the matter of authentic or not. It is matter of map-specific custom hitsound should be allowed.those wrote:
Correct. For example, a dkddk pattern sounds like kick/snare/kick/kick/snare, or low/high/low/low/high. It's a matter of getting accustomed to the idea of a high/low sound as opposed to reacting to only the authentic don/kat sound.
And please do not enforce us to get accustomed to things are not familiar with us? (BTW, was it that easy to do that?)
Huh, these MATs and BATs are always same, no matter it's past, present, future.
So, I'm here to post some of my thoughts about the custom taiko hitsounds ~
I understand that you guys want to use other hitsounds for some maps because they fit well
For me, I don't oppose that because they can further improve the map, as you guys said
However, I think the default hitsounds should not be overwritten, even if the new hitsounds fit well
Since we shouldn't force all players to use that particular type of hitsounds
Some players are just used to the default hitsounds, and won't change to other hitsounds even they fit
Mostly because they feel less comfortable when playing with less-familiar hitsounds
I myself is one of them. I just prefer using default hitsounds as I use them since I played taiko in 2008
And yes, as Ono and loctav said, it'll be good to keep the default hitsounds as this is Taiko mode.
Taiko mode should include Taiko hitsounds and so I think the default hitsounds should be the don kat sounds
Maybe you guys can just include a dl link of the new hitsounds in the map description so that players who want to and try new hitsounds too ?
I think this can make both sides happy as the default hisounds will not be overwritten in this way, and new hitsounds can be used for those who want to ~
Any thoughts ? :3
I understand that you guys want to use other hitsounds for some maps because they fit well
For me, I don't oppose that because they can further improve the map, as you guys said
However, I think the default hitsounds should not be overwritten, even if the new hitsounds fit well
Since we shouldn't force all players to use that particular type of hitsounds
Some players are just used to the default hitsounds, and won't change to other hitsounds even they fit
Mostly because they feel less comfortable when playing with less-familiar hitsounds
I myself is one of them. I just prefer using default hitsounds as I use them since I played taiko in 2008
And yes, as Ono and loctav said, it'll be good to keep the default hitsounds as this is Taiko mode.
Taiko mode should include Taiko hitsounds and so I think the default hitsounds should be the don kat sounds
Maybe you guys can just include a dl link of the new hitsounds in the map description so that players who want to and try new hitsounds too ?
I think this can make both sides happy as the default hisounds will not be overwritten in this way, and new hitsounds can be used for those who want to ~
Any thoughts ? :3
@those
Since we are always criticized like 'why you authentic authentic authentic blahblah', we already got quite far from that. That is why I stressed that. And you are already criticizing us like 'why you always want to keep authentic blahblahbalh' or something. It's true, right?
Anyway let's get to the point. That reaction should be done only in a few ms. (Seriously, the notes we hit are not that far away.) Since that high/low things are not so objective (if it is objective thing, you can't use various hitsound, seriously. And actually How people accustomed to some specific hitsound is different, so we can't make limits of how high or low should hitounds be. Subjectively, it is possible, though.) being accustomed to every different maps is really a big matter to players.
And why I aways be aggressive MATs or BATs: even if they are Taiko players, in Taiko community they don't have much privilege to decide things as in osu standard mapping community since they lacks experience or so, but they usually pretend to they can do that. huh.
BTW the time isn't so good for me, lolol. Quite late in here.
Since we are always criticized like 'why you authentic authentic authentic blahblah', we already got quite far from that. That is why I stressed that. And you are already criticizing us like 'why you always want to keep authentic blahblahbalh' or something. It's true, right?
Anyway let's get to the point. That reaction should be done only in a few ms. (Seriously, the notes we hit are not that far away.) Since that high/low things are not so objective (if it is objective thing, you can't use various hitsound, seriously. And actually How people accustomed to some specific hitsound is different, so we can't make limits of how high or low should hitounds be. Subjectively, it is possible, though.) being accustomed to every different maps is really a big matter to players.
And why I aways be aggressive MATs or BATs: even if they are Taiko players, in Taiko community they don't have much privilege to decide things as in osu standard mapping community since they lacks experience or so, but they usually pretend to they can do that. huh.
Topic Starter
You either, you even had no contra words to other stuff we said.those wrote:
You're not reading my post, lepidon. I bolded the important part. And I didn't come here as a MAT; I came here as a Taiko player looking for improvements.
Just wait for the other people who could come into this thread.
The only thing you effectively said was "We don't want change because it's good enough as it is." What more do you want me to say?OnosakiHito wrote:
You either, you even had no contra words to other stuff we said.
No. Start reading our posts and my sentences in #lounge. It's more than "its good enough". Thanks
Being conservative isn't evil and changes does not lead to good future always. That is why we should cautious. If you want change something you need to state why changes should be done and check your idea get enough support, but generally you are just criticizing onosakihito's attitude.those wrote:
The only thing you effectively said was "We don't want change because it's good enough as it is." What more do you want me to say?
This rule already have changes, yeah I'm telling you about big note in the end of stream. That changes have done cause we think there is a consensus, and we think it is ok and there is enough valid reasons. But about this, no consensus yet, not so solid reasons yet. Since enabling this possibly irritates lots of players we need to be more cautious but you are kinda... nagging.
EDIT:
I've said that I don't care if there is option like 'ignoring map-specific hitsound' or something like that, then I don't care. But enabling map-specific hitsound without giving a choice, then I think that is bad. Since we don't have any kind of system now, I oppose map-specific hitsound.
Well.
Allow custom hitsounds would change the way of mapping songs
Since mapping/playing is based on hitsounds and only two colors, as Loctav said.
I can't really think of mapping with new hitsounds... I guess the patterns would be VERY different just to follow the way of hearing the notes etc etc
and.. maybe if ~someone~ dislikes this new hitsounds
this one will probably delete/disable them
and then the map will not be the same with default hitsounds because it was mapped with others (get what I meant to say?)
So, or you play with custom or you don't play because the map turned SHIT
Taiko is Taiko.
inb4 the piano example again..
So... it's the same of electronic musical keyboards, you have a bunch of new sounds but it can't reproduce a piano sound perfectly, and it's not a piano itself. So, imo, Taiko must be always Taiko
That's my opinion.
Sorry for my bad english.
Allow custom hitsounds would change the way of mapping songs
Since mapping/playing is based on hitsounds and only two colors, as Loctav said.
I can't really think of mapping with new hitsounds... I guess the patterns would be VERY different just to follow the way of hearing the notes etc etc
and.. maybe if ~someone~ dislikes this new hitsounds
this one will probably delete/disable them
and then the map will not be the same with default hitsounds because it was mapped with others (get what I meant to say?)
So, or you play with custom or you don't play because the map turned SHIT
Taiko is Taiko.
inb4 the piano example again..
So... it's the same of electronic musical keyboards, you have a bunch of new sounds but it can't reproduce a piano sound perfectly, and it's not a piano itself. So, imo, Taiko must be always Taiko
That's my opinion.
Sorry for my bad english.
@^: Well at least I got your reasons, thanks.
Topic Starter
@those: Also you do it again. No response to lepidopodus post at all because there are probably points you can't deny, else you would allready contar to this.
And lepidopodus said right now what I told you before too: Find solid reasons at least please. Else there will be no changes yet, especially because - as allready said before (twice and more) - in generel community is agains this and because Taiko people have a higher value here.
To be honest that's too much right now. If there is coming any other post that can be markt as spam because of sensless speach, it will be deleted. We really don't need to make a circle of infinity. Thank you.
@[Luanny PhNyx]: I did understand you too. Thanks.
And lepidopodus said right now what I told you before too: Find solid reasons at least please. Else there will be no changes yet, especially because - as allready said before (twice and more) - in generel community is agains this and because Taiko people have a higher value here.
To be honest that's too much right now. If there is coming any other post that can be markt as spam because of sensless speach, it will be deleted. We really don't need to make a circle of infinity. Thank you.
@[Luanny PhNyx]: I did understand you too. Thanks.
Hi Lu.[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:
Since mapping/playing is based on hitsounds and only two colors
Taiko is not based on hitsounding at all, at the moment. Because there's no option to change to other hitsounds because of this rule that should not even exist, all you're doing is creating one object that represents don, and one object that represents kat, which happens to be the sounds like the one you use now. Whether these hitsounds you use are the authentic ones or not, don is just a representation of the lower tone (bass) and kat is just a representation of the higher tone.
those wrote:
Correct. For example, a dkddk pattern sounds like kick/snare/kick/kick/snare, or low/high/low/low/high. It's a matter of getting accustomed to the idea of a high/low sound as opposed to reacting to only the authentic don/kat sound.Loctav wrote:
Theoretically, the color tells you what to press, but practically you rely on the hitsounds to know when you change the pattern to play. You read the patterns but rely on the hitsounds to get it proper. Especially in Hidden mod, you rely even more on the hitsounds.
Onosakihito, relax? Well I already starting to getting aggressive and it is enough to have one aggressive Taiko guy in here.
Kinda hard to discuss about does really people get irritated when hitsound changes, it is kinda matter of personal experience or characteristics or something. We might talk about how players play Taiko here, but it can be different with actual practicing. That is why we need consensus first, and we end up put more value to some guys who knows Taiko well.
But I guess general opinion is against about that, and even experts are not support that.
Kinda hard to discuss about does really people get irritated when hitsound changes, it is kinda matter of personal experience or characteristics or something. We might talk about how players play Taiko here, but it can be different with actual practicing. That is why we need consensus first, and we end up put more value to some guys who knows Taiko well.
But I guess general opinion is against about that, and even experts are not support that.
Okay, I only skimmed through the subject so excuse me if I may be off-topic. But from what I'm seeing, this is a discussion on forcing custom taiko hit-sounds in beatmap set?
I would like to quote some things here;
If they are going to add this rule, at least allow a toggle in the skins options "use beatmap's taiko hitsounds" or something.
I know we'll just get shot down because of the famous quote, "This is osu!, not taiko", but still try to hear us out.
That's all I got to say, I gave up on this thread quite some time ago. orz
I would like to quote some things here;
This is very true, as I use custom hitsounds sometimes for taiko, (When I'm playing metal songs and stuff, but never when I'm playing authentic or for ranking) . But like he said, forcing it in a mapset would just be cruel.MMzz wrote:
Noone is stopping you from useing your own custom hits on your own, but it shouldn't be forced.
If they are going to add this rule, at least allow a toggle in the skins options "use beatmap's taiko hitsounds" or something.
I like this point, it's "taiko", not drum set, or guitar. Without the taiko hit-sounds, it's not taiko anymore. (In my opinion)Loctav wrote:
We are simulating and INSTRUMENT
I know we'll just get shot down because of the famous quote, "This is osu!, not taiko", but still try to hear us out.
That's all I got to say, I gave up on this thread quite some time ago. orz
Looks like a good idea to me. p/1278182peppy wrote:
Let me remind you that this isn't taiko no tatsujin; it is osu!. Just like the osu! game mode, it will not be authentic. osu! was not made to limit users to particular boundaries placed on mappers in other games. The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
@^: Hey I guess you are already said that's not the point? I already told that it isn't matter of authentic or not several times. Do not cover other issues to that thing.
You blacklisted me or what.
EDIT:
You blacklisted me or what.
EDIT:
I already stated how hitsound can be effect gameplay, and I already state just stating that high/low can be too subjective. You are just ignoring me.those wrote:
Hi Lu.
Taiko is not based on hitsounding at all, at the moment. Because there's no option to change to other hitsounds because of this rule that should not even exist, all you're doing is creating one object that represents don, and one object that represents kat, which happens to be the sounds like the one you use now. Whether these hitsounds you use are the authentic ones or not, don is just a representation of the lower tone (bass) and kat is just a representation of the higher tone.