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[New Rule] Overmapping

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Total Posts
300
Charles445
Elite Mapper II: Aspirant / osu! Paragon
2,881 posts
Joined March 2009
Topic Starter
Charles445
Currently overmapping doesn't have a definition and isn't in the ranking criteria, yet we still enforce it.
It's been unrankable for ages yet nobody can clearly say what it is. Some are more lenient than others.

With a word with no meaning comes conflict and confusion, so I'm proposing a potential definition for "overmapping" to stop it.

Hitcircles and the starts of sliders must be snapped to a beat in the music.

The reasoning behind this is, hitcircles and the starts of sliders are the objects in the game that require the player to press down on time. Spinners and the end of sliders don't require a knowledge of the beat beforehand as they both involve keeping the already pressed button held down.
This is also mirroring the Audio rule "Hitsounds from notes and sliders must be audible." and its exception "The end of a spinner (or even the entire spinner) the sliding sound of a slider, and the end of a slider can be silent".

That's all there is to it. This would allow for the insanity of slider fun maps (like val0108 stuff) but still keep it to the music (no endless streams on a lullaby song).
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
I love you Charles
Starz0r
197 posts
Joined March 2012
Starz0r
Not sure how I feel about this rule.
Andrea
Beatmap Nominator
16,650 posts
Joined August 2008
Andrea
Overmapping can't be truly considered a rule since it's a personal feeling, for some people a map can be overmapped, for some not.

It's totally a subjective thing, so it's impossible to establish a rule for that.

Just throwing my 2 cents here.
Last edited by Andrea , edited 1 time in total.
Chewin
osu! Alumni
4,082 posts
Joined December 2010
Chewin
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/81653

[Chewin's style]
00:06:679 (5) - Circle not in music
00:07:284 (2) - Circle not in music
00:09:102 (4) - Circle not in music
00:46:053 (2) - Circle not in music
These points have been considered overmapped.
1/2 circles are used also to don't break the gameplay/map/rhythm flow.
Overmapping is a subjective thing, adding this rule would solve nothing. You can see by yourself how ALL the mappers add some 1/2 or 1/4 circles to keep a consistent flow in their insane maps. Following your points would just ruin the flow of the map making the maps bad to play.
I want to repeat myself: overmapping is a subjective thing and create a rule on it is just dumb in my opinion.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
This works only for a specific genre of music. There are tons of moments in rock songs where an "intro stream" can work wonders that would come over nothing before the moment you are trying to define.

Overmapping can't be defined by rules. Sadly subjectivity plays a major role here, however what is always true is that the rhythms should be preserved when overmapping does happen. If you have a distinct rhythm such as 3 notes which are 3/4 between each other then it's pretty stupid and pointless to map a stream between the first and the last note. With your rule this would be allowed and it wouldn't make a difference towards the better.

Also this rule would still allow the really disgusting extended sliders which intentionally go past the required rhythm point just to justify "cool rhythms" or "it follows the vocals".

TBH instead of a rule just have a recommendation that mappers shouldn't map notes which are not in the music. Anything more than that will cause endless debates (as you are already familiar with) and will still allow double standards when it comes to certain people.

I personally don't like where this is going at all because I know that some people intentionally do this because they think it's cool, same goes with doubling bpm just for the sake of it.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
Your definition is more like whether the note is 'with the music' but nowhere close to the definition of overmapping. It's more like mapping over the pace that is supposed to be brought by the music, but not identical to the over the beat brought by the music.

Add yes, overmapping is subjective and can't be defined deterministically.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
This rule should be taken to consideration to some extent to at least prevent mappers from making up timings like notes on blue ticks from their imagination that literally follows nothing in the song. That's the worst type of overmapping, and it goes against the whole point of a rhythm game which is to play the song.

Also, mappers should really not spam 1/2s to "keep a flow". Design a map to fit a song, not to fit your interpretation of the song.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
This is never going to be accepted because people like too much their absolutely random 1/4 triples and longer song-unrelated streams. And overmapping should also take unfitting jumps into account, which is impossible to formalize as a rule because it's subjective.
Charles445
Elite Mapper II: Aspirant / osu! Paragon
2,881 posts
Joined March 2009
Topic Starter
Charles445
If something isn't done about overmapping, we won't get anywhere on maps as a team.
Suggest new ideas please, it's better than nothing.

EDIT: Adding to this post since nobody has replied yet

Accepting that "oh, it's all subjective there's nothing that can be done" is a failure on our part. If anything is to happen something concrete must be decided on. It's not time to give up.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Aqo wrote:

Also, mappers should really not spam 1/2s to "keep a flow". Design a map to fit a song, not to fit your interpretation of the song.
Agreed.

Though I would like to point out that trying to define this is pretty pointless. Overmapping is not subjective, it's pretty objective, because you can clearly define it and that is notes which don't happen to be in the music.
However the usage of overmapping is subjective and in half cases it's not wrong at all.

There are quite a lot maps which use overmapping in a really bad taste with all those random triples and other nonsense, however there are pretty well made maps which occasionally add a personal rhythm to complement the song, and do that quite well. Also there are certain genres of music which are really hard to map without overmap (hardcore for example), simply because the song is too static and needs variance.

Charles445 wrote:

If something isn't done about overmapping, we won't get anywhere on maps as a team.
Suggest new ideas please, it's better than nothing.
There doesn't have to be a rule for something for you to say NO to. It's more of a matter why some people say yes in the team. Sadly you just can't define this as you have already seen how discussions like this end up.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
I actually like the idea, but I believe the community might dislike, consider maps like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/53923, which contains some overmapped streams, are really liked by the people, so maybe disallowing all kinds of overmapping isn't such a good idea.

Also think about Mythologia or some cRyo maps.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris

Aqo wrote:

Design a map to fit a song, not to fit your interpretation of the song.
Mapping is about expressing your interpretation of the song, of course. They are accepted in a certain range but it can't be too over and get ranked.

Everyone gets different message from the same song, and mapping is to enforce those messages. Since they are from the song of course your interpretation goes with the original message, otherwise the interpretation might be off.

As far as the rules as an objective measure stands, putting a definition on overmapping is like proving 1+1 = 3, which is just impossible.
Charles445
Elite Mapper II: Aspirant / osu! Paragon
2,881 posts
Joined March 2009
Topic Starter
Charles445

lolcubes wrote:

There doesn't have to be a rule for something for you to say NO to. It's more of a matter why some people say yes in the team.
This is when the mapper starts calling you subjective for saying no to something not explicity listed in the rules. There does have to be a rule for it if the state is to be improved.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
I have no problems with that. Mapper can call me whatever they want really. I will not approve of things I strongly disagree with, be in the rules or not. It's that part of "common sense" which everyone forgot about already.

There used to be a time where mappers actually cared about their own maps rather than just rushing to rank. And it is not mapper's attitude that changed much, it's that stuff was getting allowed and not kept in check.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

wmfchris wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Design a map to fit a song, not to fit your interpretation of the song.
Mapping is about expressing your interpretation of the song, of course. They are accepted in a certain range but it can't be too over and get ranked.
Express how the song feels to you with the spacing between notes.
Not by making up notes that don't follow the song.

That's what I meant.

The "feel" of a map comes from the movement between objects. That's where the mapper has room to express their feelings.
As far as the clicking, my own belief is the same as Charles, it should follow the music 1:1 or else there's no point in mapping a song and you might as well map a blank mp3 purely with hitsounds.
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
if the object isn't bound to a sound or pattern in the music, it's overmapping. how can it be any more concrete than that- that's not subjective.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Agka wrote:

if the object isn't bound to a sound or pattern in the music, it's overmapping. how can it be any more concrete than that- that's not subjective.
Yes, that's what I wrote in my post too. However the problem is how can you define what's acceptable and what is not? You can't.

That's why there are a lot of problems and grey area cases about this around.
Charles445
Elite Mapper II: Aspirant / osu! Paragon
2,881 posts
Joined March 2009
Topic Starter
Charles445
See, there are two main sides on it, those who are for the entire removal of overmapping (i.e. all beats on the music) and those who are against any restriction (beats can go as long as it's rhythmic regardless of the music).

I am striking a balance between the two, where the actual player interaction with the beat must be in the music, however any beats brought by other objects (slider ends or spinners) can be off the music.

The reason why I highly recommend not allowing clicked beats (slider starts and hitcircles) to be in maps with no music is because, in that case, it'd technically be like having wrong timing as the beats are not snapped to the music anymore. A map with horribly off timing could be considered 'overmapped' if hits are allowed to be off the music. See what I'm saying?
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
I can propose something.

Is it fun to play? Yes? To most people? Alright, well done, that's acceptable.

Is it lame/frustrating/unfitting to most people? Yes? Then it has to go.

Ahem. Edit: Is it.. just okay? Take it out. Being in doubt about anything isn't good. Ever.
Last edited by Agka , edited 1 time in total.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Agka wrote:

I can propose something.

Is it fun to play? Yes? To most people? Alright, well done, that's acceptable.

Is it lame/frustrating/unfitting to most people? Yes? Then it has to go.
So, we should hold a poll and ask the whole community to vote?
See how pointless that would be?

Also not that I am dissing people, however I am pretty sure that not everyone can understand rhythms on a more professional level. Also even if they do it's still possible that the opinions differ.

It's just an endless conflict which has no solution but to make mappers use more moderation in how they overmap (or not overmap at all). Sadly there isn't a way to make them do that, and it wouldn't be right either.

Charles445 wrote:

See, there are two main sides on it, those who are for the entire removal of overmapping (i.e. all beats on the music) and those who are against any restriction (beats can go as long as it's rhythmic regardless of the music).

I am striking a balance between the two, where the actual player interaction with the beat must be in the music, however any beats brought by other objects (slider ends or spinners) can be off the music.

The reason why I highly recommend not allowing clicked beats (slider starts and hitcircles) to be in maps with no music is because, in that case, it'd technically be like having wrong timing as the beats are not snapped to the music anymore. A map with horribly off timing could be considered 'overmapped' if hits are allowed to be off the music. See what I'm saying?
Clicking doesn't matter. Audible objects still create rhythms. I understand your point, but I don't think this "balance" you are trying to achieve is going to work, if anything it will cause even more problems. Read my first post in the thread why.
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
You don't need the whole community- just the modders/playtesters/MAT and BAT who agree on being okay or not.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Which is still WAY too many people. If you need to ask someone else about something because you are not sure about it yourself, then that also undermines your ability to judge and stay objective about the matter at hand.

I commend you for trying to find most simple solutions but such things just can't work. Just check some map threads from maps which were unranked for excessive overmap to see why.
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

lolcubes wrote:

Though I would like to point out that trying to define this is pretty pointless. Overmapping is not subjective, it's pretty objective, because you can clearly define it and that is notes which don't happen to be in the music.
However the usage of overmapping is subjective and in half cases it's not wrong at all.

There are quite a lot maps which use overmapping in a really bad taste with all those random triples and other nonsense, however there are pretty well made maps which occasionally add a personal rhythm to complement the song, and do that quite well. Also there are certain genres of music which are really hard to map without overmap (hardcore for example), simply because the song is too static and needs variance.
I completely agree with this, which is why I don't think a rule can really be made on it. And tbh, discussion of it is pretty pointless since these threads always go in circles or into oblivion.
Last edited by Makar , edited 1 time in total.
RLC
Elite Mapper
1,007 posts
Joined August 2011
RLC
let's take an example.

if placebo dying had no 1/4, then the deathstream in the second half of aho's ExtrA would be considered overmapped.
but hey, M2U decided to put some REALLY faint 1/4 in there, and so that deathstream can't be considered overmapped at all. does that suddenly make it a better mapping choice? (hint: no.)

and on the other end of the spectrum, consider some of val's bibuko maps. they contain a lot of overmapped 1/4 stacks, yet they are very natural to hit, as lolcubes was talking about earlier:

lolcubes wrote:

There are tons of moments in rock songs where an "intro stream" can work wonders that would come over nothing before the moment you are trying to define.
overmapping shouldn't be about misrepresenting the notes of a song, and making it about the notes really won't improve mapping very much at all.
for me, overmapping has always been about misrepresenting the overall feel of a song... and the feel of a song is clearly subjective.

tl;dr: suggestion, not rule, would work better for something like this
Last edited by RLC , edited 1 time in total.
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
I'm just trying to help. At worst, my random contributions still manage to help other people realize what everyone thinks about that, I guess.

Though, remember, the only one who can really decide on something being of quality is the people who realize a project- and of course, the people who enjoy/bash it.

People in charge along with creator should have the final say, of course. It's impossible to regulate if something is good or not- I agree completely, but calls must be done, mostly for overall quality, even if the overmapping is the main issue. Even if there's no rule in place. Not having a rule in place might allow us to decide on this per-case basis, so if you're against this rule, that's okay.

At any rate, let the players sort it out; let them say "We like this" or "We hate this".
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
I would change it to
Hitcircles and the starts and end of sliders and the end of spinners must be snapped to a beat in the music.
Then it would be perfect.
RLC
Elite Mapper
1,007 posts
Joined August 2011
RLC

those wrote:

I would change it to
Hitcircles and the starts and end of sliders and the end of spinners must be snapped to a beat in the music.
Then it would be perfect.
except that flies completely against the logic stated in the next line:

Charles445 wrote:

The reasoning behind this is, hitcircles and the starts of sliders are the objects in the game that require the player to press down on time.
so yeah. let's not.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
Whereas osu!mania requires the player to let go within a particular time frame. I don't see the issue of adding this if it will prevent bad (if not worse) translations.

Offtopic: I don't see why standard sliders allow the player to hold indefinitely and still be scored the same on accuracy.
RLC
Elite Mapper
1,007 posts
Joined August 2011
RLC
osu!standard maps are mapped to be played in osu!standard. and this isn't just me saying this; i've been told this by a number of BATs.
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
well, osu!mania translations are not a reason to force rules onto standard, those.
cheesiest
721 posts
Joined September 2009
cheesiest

RLC wrote:

osu!standard maps are mapped to be played in osu!standard. and this isn't just me saying this; i've been told this by a number of BATs.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Agka wrote:

well, osu!mania translations are not a reason to force rules onto standard, those.
Nowhere am I forcing anything. If it is a step toward improvement, why not suggest it?

Also, until the day that this "All" turns into Standard, as far as I know the map will have to be available for All game modes:


I'm not aware of any rule saying otherwise, anyway.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
Err, I'll just point out the whole polarity changing thing, which would make a lot of stuff considered "overmapped" by the OP definition (unless they use sliderends, which just doesn't always work if there aren't any "hold" notes present).

Also 1:1 between the beats in the music and the map would be a horrible idea. Mapping should be 1:1 between the map and the song/music, as in your subjective feeling. It's kind of like slider velocity; some songs that could be mapped with, say 1.6 or 1.8 SV could very well be mapped with 1.2 and using short, small sliderjumps to capture a distinct feeling of small breaks in the music. Not that this is related to overmapping anyway (unless your subjective feeling of the song is that the jumps doesn't fit the song at all).

Keep a rule for no excessive overmap, link to a wiki page describing overmap, how it can be used well in some cases, but other times work bad. Include examples that *ATs can point to. Then just state that in the case that there are disagreement, discuss with other *ATs (this shouldn't happen often if the wiki is thorough with it) and say that in the end, the *ATs have the last say or something or other.
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
the "All" option (given that there's no standard option) implies that it's the standard version. I can see you want to improve on that, but that's getting away from the main point- standard mode maps.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I tried submitting a rule like this. It got nuked because it was too subjective. It will need to be more specific than <insert subjective adjective> amounts of overmapping or banning it in general. The definition of overmapping is multifaceted.

A pattern is deemed overmapped if:

1. Hitobjects do not land on an identifiable sound.
2. The objects in their current orientation do not match the tempo of the part of music being mapped.
3. The overmapping is noticeable while playing and negatively affects the flow of the map.

the last part is subjective. It's really not possible to have standards that aren't.
Last edited by TheVileOne , edited 1 time in total.
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
We already defined overmapping though. We need to see the cases where it's a go or it needs ouendan.
LKs
3,119 posts
Joined August 2009
LKs
Fair enough

Different diffs should have different standards tho. As for highest diff we should consider more if it feels really okay when there is no beat. That's to say leaving a bit leeway to discuss when some circumstances are reached.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
I still believe that you shall represent the song you are mapping, so I see no reason how mapping something, that doesn't exis in any layer of the music is helpin representing the actual mp3.
Maybe we can work with a definition of musical layers, since most songs have more than 1. And overmapping might start there, when you map something that:
1.) represents none of the given layers
2.) represents too many layers at once so it's unclear which
3.) swaps too frequent between the layers so you don't know what to follow

Feel free to expand the idea
Frostmourne
osu! Alumni
3,733 posts
Joined November 2009
Frostmourne

cheesiest wrote:

RLC wrote:

osu!standard maps are mapped to be played in osu!standard. and this isn't just me saying this; i've been told this by a number of BATs.
I can quote this numerous times.
osu! is osu! , why does it have to be related to other modes?
That makes all the maps, which have the obvious changes of slider velocity like 1.0->1.5, unrankable due to the Taiko mode.
It definitely doesn't not make sense if someone refers to the other modes.

also
Overmapping will be bad for the players who want to hit everything according to the music strictly.
Overmapping will be fun for the players who want to hit everything that they are familiar(like most of maps) and get fun of it.

It just sounds bad if the overmapping is placed on where are not appropriate(which you can hear and feel unfitting about it)
but sometimes it's also well done if the overmapping is placed on the right spot.
I will say NO to this rule because this will lead to the shitstorm.
and Jump is also considered overmapping as well. No one wants to see the map that follows the music strictly 100% but has the placements like TAG maps.

anyways, it's our"common sense"to judge if the overmapping is acceptable or not that you have to judge depending on each maps individually.
Let the community tell the mapper (from its feedbacks, comments on the maps, rating, etc.) if it's bad or not.
popner
osu! Alumni
2,407 posts
Joined March 2011
popner
Technically overmapping can't be defined as 'putting note where there is no sound', because mappers are free to put beats in mp3.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
You're being brainwashed. Stop believing that.
UnderminE
osu! Alumni
4,011 posts
Joined August 2010
UnderminE

those wrote:

Also, until the day that this "All" turns into Standard, as far as I know the map will have to be available for All game modes:


I'm not aware of any rule saying otherwise, anyway.
Exactly
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro

lolcubes wrote:

There doesn't have to be a rule for something for you to say NO to. It's more of a matter why some people say yes in the team.
Because some mappers in the team are blatant users of obvious overmapping. Most if not all maps nowadays would be overmapped by this definition, but not all use overmapping in a bad way. The problem is a problem of how much it fits and flows, again. The BAT has always accepted streams leading to finishes when there is no actual 1/4 in the song because in most cases it plays well.
The problem with overmapping is when it becomes abusive, like 3/4 sliders or random triples. This needs to be stopped because it's plain confusing and doesn't play well.
spboxer3
Global Moderator
3,616 posts
Joined November 2009
spboxer3

those wrote:

You're being brainwashed. Stop believing that.
Actually, I'd rather believe mapping is remix the song not only fit the song :/
Why do you limit mapper's creativity? some "overmapping" maps are bad I agree this opinion. However we not only have bad map but also have some outstanding "overmapping" map. That was why we need XAT and XAT should judge the map is good enough be ranked or just a piece of shit :/
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
This is a rhythm game. Per se, rhythm games are defined as a simulation genre that makes you perform on a song.
You are free to be creative, as long as you stay in the frame. You put creativity as "highest goal", when you totally forget the purpose of what you do: "mapping something for the song you create a stage for".
You are free to express music, as you as you express the music, not the everlasting desire to express your artistic creativity for the sake of being outstanding and unique.
Many "creative" things are so forcefully "creative", that it's just appearing invented.

And tbh the subjective frame of expressing something that is given is very limited. Since you have something to guide yourself at.
This rule is an attempt to find this "limit", since right now we have none.

Sometimes, art might be art - but stays to be shit at the same moment.
Scorpiour
2,633 posts
Joined May 2011
Scorpiour
rhythem != music
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav

Scorpiour wrote:

rhythem != music
You are misunderstanding the word "rhythm" in a musical context then.
Scorpiour
2,633 posts
Joined May 2011
Scorpiour

Loctav wrote:

Scorpiour wrote:

rhythem != music
You are misunderstanding the word "rhythm" in a musical context then.
maybe.. maybe not :>

you know, there won't be only one or two tracks in a music, so sometimes how to judge "which rhythm to follow" is only depended on mappers' understanding :>

that's why i say "rhythm != music"
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
That's what I described with my layers-approach, You should read it p/2210450 o:
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
Music is an art form whose medium is sound and silence. Its common elements are pitch (which governs melody and harmony), rhythm (and its associated concepts tempo, meter, and articulation), dynamics, and the sonic qualities of timbre and texture.
Being a rhythm game does not imply that the rhythm rules everything because you are based on a song but not simply based on a rhythm. The messages from the song, as well as the map is brought as a whole. As mentioned before, the grey zone should goes to particular judgement and the proposed frame has been too restrictive and hinders potential outstanding map.

You can treat art as shit, this is fine. The point is, they can be welcomed by the majority and making sense, then why not? Quite a lot of examples have been proposed here.
Scorpiour
2,633 posts
Joined May 2011
Scorpiour

Loctav wrote:

That's what I described with my layers-approach, You should read it p/2210450 o:
read~~

however, whenever the mapper add hitsounds to a music, the hitsounds will become a new "track" of the whole music. As a result, the new track will change the feeling of original music.

to myself, the best solution is "no adding any hitsound" to beatmap, but obviously it is impossible :)
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven

popner wrote:

Technically overmapping can't be defined as 'putting note where there is no sound', because mappers are free to put beats in mp3.
Once they actually exert the effort to do this, then yes, it won't be overmapped, but when the mp3 -doesn't- have these added beats, it'll remain labeled as overmapping.

I'm not saying it'll be bad, but I'm saying that it will still be termed as overmapping. Although Charles' attempt at giving a solid rule for us to follow in terms of overmapping, I feel that it is too limited in scope to leave it to sliders only for adding new beats. There are plenty of instances where the flow of the map click-wise simply would be broken if you were forced to use a slider instead. This is just one of those aspects of mapping where you need to use your own judgement on whether the technique is applied well or not. The problem is that even when you say it is overmapping, it has such a negative stigma recently that people get offended by the mere mention of it. Calm down, check the mod for the merits of the suggestion, and adjust accordingly.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
This is not an osu standard map but I wonder what people in this thread have to say about this

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/74779

in the [Normal], from 01:22:064 to 01:26:516
the music goes:
x 1/1 x 1/1 x 1/2 x 1/1 x 1/1 x 1/1 x 1/1 x 1/2 etc
the map goes:
x 3/4 x 3/4 x 3/4 x 3/4 x 3/4 x 3/4 x 3/4 x 3/4 etc

There are no multiple layers of rhythms in the song at this part. There is no excuse here.
The map completely disregards the song and makes up its own rhythm from the mapper's imagination.

Personally I was disgusted by this while playing this map. I wonder what other people feel about this style of overmapping?
-kevincela-
Elite Mapper
2,796 posts
Joined February 2010
-kevincela-

Frostmourne wrote:

I can quote this numerous times.
osu! is osu! , why does it have to be related to other modes?
That makes all the maps, which have the obvious changes of slider velocity like 1.0->1.5, unrankable due to the Taiko mode.
It definitely doesn't not make sense if someone refers to the other modes.

also
Overmapping will be bad for the players who want to hit everything according to the music strictly.
Overmapping will be fun for the players who want to hit everything that they are familiar(like most of maps) and get fun of it.

It just sounds bad if the overmapping is placed on where are not appropriate(which you can hear and feel unfitting about it)
but sometimes it's also well done if the overmapping is placed on the right spot.
I will say NO to this rule because this will lead to the shitstorm.
and Jump is also considered overmapping as well. No one wants to see the map that follows the music strictly 100% but has the placements like TAG maps.

anyways, it's our"common sense"to judge if the overmapping is acceptable or not that you have to judge depending on each maps individually.
Let the community tell the mapper (from its feedbacks, comments on the maps, rating, etc.) if it's bad or not.
I wholeheartedly agree with this post, and I also think this is the reason why this should be more a guideline than a rule if it has really to be added. While there are some totally overmapped rhythms in various maps which should totally be changed into something suitable to the music, sometimes patterns could represent a nice addition to the map/song, which could really help with the flow usage, and so going... As Frost mentioned, MATs/BATs should already have some "common sense" in judging what makes sense and what DOESEN'T make sense, and I really can't see what this should be added as a rule.
Aqo: Can't you hear the synth's chords in the background? These 3/4 notes are totally following them. While I still think following the vocals would be better there, following the synth instead isn't so terrifying, even though the synth chords there can barely be heard.
LKs
3,119 posts
Joined August 2009
LKs
kinda off-topic here:

A rule stipulates that all mappers should do in a particular way when mapping, for example: mappers must use 128~192k mp3 is a rule, as long as they want get maps ranked.

So if we decide to make it a rule, get all considerations and questions clear. If we always need to discuss after saying xxx breaks the rule, we shall put it into guidlines. A rule doesn't need discussing if someone break it, just fix it.
wcx19911123
3,862 posts
Joined June 2010
wcx19911123
I disagree with this. the rules will destroy mapping's developing

first, overmapping shouldn't be define as a specific rule. it's nearly impossible to tell a map is overmapped or not with rules. we need to judge every map every diff by what we thought/felt manually but not by rules
for example, this rule is only saying bad rhyme may be an overmapping stuff. but in fact, overmapping determined by a variety of technical mapping design. such as huge jump, super slider speed, etc.
so it's not necessary to set a rule to tell map is overmapped or not, it should be judged by man

second, the purpose of mapping a song is making the map to fit the song, but not only following the song. the latter will restrict the developing of mapping.
when we map something to follow the song/music, the situation is like:
SPOILER
when we map something to fit the song/music, then it become:
SPOILER
it's easy to see the second way bring us more possibility of mapping, it's a better way
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

-kevincela- wrote:

Aqo: Can't you hear the synth's chords in the background? These 3/4 notes are totally following them. While I still think following the vocals would be better there, following the synth instead isn't so terrifying, even though the synth chords there can barely be heard.
After listening to it 10 times slowed down I can hear it now. wow. This map is amazingly misleading for requiring you to hear this but at least I have to take back what I said earlier, I guess this does follow the song heh. Do people actually find misleadingness like this fun? Because imo this is just frustrating to play.

Which rolls back to the main topic here -> overmapping can be good if it's fun to play, but how do you know what's fun for people and what's not other than simply asking a lot of players?
LKs
3,119 posts
Joined August 2009
LKs

Aqo wrote:

-kevincela- wrote:

Aqo: Can't you hear the synth's chords in the background? These 3/4 notes are totally following them. While I still think following the vocals would be better there, following the synth instead isn't so terrifying, even though the synth chords there can barely be heard.
After listening to it 10 times slowed down I can hear it now. wow. This map is amazingly misleading for requiring you to hear this but at least I have to take back what I said earlier, I guess this does follow the song heh. Do people actually find misleadingness like this fun? Because imo this is just frustrating to play.
Actually, if we think it negatively it's misleading rhythm, but if we think it positively it's advanced rhythm for expert plays who can get fun from playing "Easy" rhythms. I won't give an clear answer whether is correct or not, since people's opinions vary.

Misleadingness is predictably the next orz issue we are gonna to discuss endlessly right after the overmapping one, for the reason I wrote in bold
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Aqo: We're talking about the Standard Mode, right?

To 75% we can talk about it that Overmapping is something subjective. And of course, Subjectivity is no pardon to keep a Map with many many song-unrelated Triplets and Streams. If you ask me it's exactlly like the Question "What constitutes a good Map?". To 75% it is subjective if Person 1 find it good and if Person 2 find it very bad. There's no real Criterias how good a Map is and why and why not. I support the point that Circles and Slider Starts should not start on a non-beat Time. Because this would cause that you have silent Hitobjects, and these things should not be ranked. Not sure if this would work that for the ends of Sliders and Spinners since Spinner are often used to end Beatmaps and often these Songs has no real Beat at the end because they faded out, etc.

I would love to see it as Guideline but this would make no difference because there is no describtion for now what we define as Overmapping and when it could be avoided. And at last but not least we (which contains like 1000 people or so) cannot speak about Overmapping for the whole community. 60% of the people are saying that they would map like how it is. But 10% says that they would change this and that and another 20% want to change that. It might sounds weird but let's take the numbers 1 2 3 4 5. 60% perfer this order while the 10% perfer 1 2 4 5 3 and the 20% perfer 1 3 2 5 4. What I acutally mean with "that": Where to set a Triplet/Stream, where to set a Jump, where to set a Circle/Slider. The mapper should make it sure that the Map allows to use Streams or Triplets on specific parts. Otherwise I wouldn't call the Mapper as good tbh. Especially for people which have many ranked Maps they NEED to know and to justify their sight about Mapping and why they mapped like that.

About other Play Modes: Converted Taiko Maps are often really gross, I wouldn't use it here to the Discussion. No idea about o!m but honestly, there are coming so many Maps of them.. I think it won't take long that we have enough Maps of them. CtB is the best Mode to convert Standard Maps (in case the Map hasn't things like unreachable Jumps or Slider Tickrate 4).
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

LKs wrote:

Actually, if we think it negatively it's misleading rhythm, but if we think it positively it's advanced rhythm for expert plays who can get fun from playing "Easy" rhythms. I won't give an clear answer whether is correct or not, since people's opinions vary.
I agree with you, that for advanced players a more complex rhythm can be more interesting for the extra challenge it requires.
That's why I pointed out a [Normal] diff and not an [Extra]. Had this been in an [Extra] I'd be far more ok with it.
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
The sad thing is that used to be the Easy difficulty. osu!mania mappers have some really weird notions when it comes to difficulty spread that need to be adapted for acceptance in this environment.

But mainly Aqo's point is that using these types of overmapping techniques with off-kilter rhythm work in the lower-end difficulties (ENH) really should be discouraged, and I whole-heartedly agree.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
Overmapping is cool when it's done in a way that enhances the music or makes the music more memorable. Example: most KIRBY Mix difficulties.

Not that there aren't cool things already prohibited in the ranking criteria...
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

lolcubes wrote:

Also this rule would still allow the really disgusting extended sliders which intentionally go past the required rhythm point just to justify "cool rhythms" or "it follows the vocals".
These can be neat if they still fit the feel of the music. See RJ's 'Buttons' map. I never saw overmapping as something that was explicitly wrong, but it is done wrongly more than it is correctly. Apparently, shit like 'Luv Letter' is totally fine, even though the overmapping there is inconsistent with the rest of the map and generally does nothing to augment the music itself.

On the other hand, Sandpig's 'Nuclear Fusion' map has it hitsounded to feel like a part of the music and generally make it feel integral to the overall feeling. It still fits. My 'Footloose' map has an overmapped stack towards the end of the song, but it still fits the feel when it lands on a caterwauling vocal line.

Really, it should be a heavily enforced guideline for insanes and a heavily enforced rule for everything else. Case-by-case, if something in an insane feels like it shouldn't be there, then it should be lumped. If there's overmapping which feels like it's part of the music, then I wouldn't complain if it doesn't make the map obscenely hard.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
NatsumeRin
I don't mind to definate overmap, but what's that for? Enough people expressed the idea: Overmapping could be used right or wrong, it depends.

And when something is like "it depends", it's no way a rule.

I think such a rule is trying to ensure map quality, then well... that's what XAT are for, not rules.
Ulysses
1,911 posts
Joined September 2010
Ulysses
seat stay
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne

Soaprman wrote:

Overmapping is cool when it's done in a way that enhances the music or makes the music more memorable. Example: most KIRBY Mix difficulties.

Not that there aren't cool things already prohibited in the ranking criteria...
^ This.

If overmapping doesn't enhance the music then it doesn't have business being mapped. This is subjective though.


I'm just going to go out and say it. Subjectivity in rules is natural. I swear the revolts of 2011 didn't know what they were talking about. Some rules should and are based on strong opinion, but BAT have the authority and knowledge to decide when a map violates a rule. This system will not be perfect, but at least it wont be limiting. Other court systems make the wrong decision sometimes, BAT should be allowed to make a choice as well. There should not be unwritten rules and guidelines. Everything we value in maps should be out in the open, even the controversial aspects of mapping. The staff needs to stop hiding behind this veil of subjectivity.

There are views for and against overmapping. That would make this suitable as a guideline. Older views literally stated that overmapping was healthy and there should not even be a guideline about it. All the popular mappers overmap, so it's perfectly acceptable right? No!
loldcraft
106 posts
Joined June 2012
loldcraft
I personally don't see a need for the end of a spinner to fit the music, but slider ends should to accomodate for the mania gamemode (if i'm not wrong you have to release on time?) and thus there are implications for off beat sliders.
Also in default osu i've let sliders go early because it ends later than i expected (following the beat) (still trying to think of an example)

TL;DR slider ends should also follow the beat
Sieg
3,981 posts
Joined February 2012
Sieg
Don't mind of overmapping in insane+ difs if that complete/follows rhythm but please burn this shitty random triples from hards please.
Jenny
2,200 posts
Joined November 2010
Jenny
there should be some kind of "exception" for additively hitsounded maps, like Sandpig or LKs do, as these feel natural and hood because they contribute something additional to the song - sadly, that's hard to define, but i guess you'll agree?
Dark Fang
1,981 posts
Joined February 2011
Dark Fang
._.

players want more funny maps (except the exceptions people) and mappers want too.-making funny maps-
and then actually, used virtual beat is very good work sometimes.
but, other ones. We need to be aware there is not good for playing
mappers should take care of that issues.
btw, I think don't need to add this rule as ranking criteria.
if enforce it, mappers feel pressure to spread their creativity.

I think it's just need to add as guideline
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani

Dark Fang wrote:

players want more funny maps
osu! humor club.

But yeah, this is a definite "too subject to opinion and too broad" subject to place into a rule without spending most of your time interpreting it. Rules should be things that can't be very open to interpretation (Ie. "Maps must be perfectly timed, have a background, have a certain number of diffs"). It's forever stuck as one of those things that BATs just have to point out before maps get ranked.
Jenny
2,200 posts
Joined November 2010
Jenny
^or modders, though people hate me for doingn stuff like that
RLC
Elite Mapper
1,007 posts
Joined August 2011
RLC
Let's say we do this to restrict notes that can appear in maps. Ok. That'll take care of streams and shit. Then the next step would be, naturally, to deal with overdone jumps. Yeah, so like, you are not allowed to use Ax spacing if the amplitude of a wave in the mp3 does not exceed A*1/sqrt(1-v--what the fuck!? no!

I agree wholeheartedly with what Frostmourne said earlier about jumps. Jumpspam is the complementary concept of overmapping, but overmapping is easier to objectify so we see more threads about it.

Awkward jumpspam is bad. But jumpspam can be really fun if done well! (the usual example being val maps)
The same goes for overmapping. (val maps also demonstrate some natural-to-hit, overmapped 1/4 stacks). I don't understand why this duality is so hard for some people to grasp.

What is "fitting" for a song depends very greatly on a player's skill level. Whereas some players may find jumps/overmapped streams in a map to be completely overdone and shitty, a player of a higher skill level may find them very natural. In fact, I know a number of players that find jumps more natural to hit than lesser-spaced, more conventionally "flowy" patterns! And often times, a map is overmapped / hitsounded in such a way that fits so well you can't even tell it's overmapped without listening to the song excruciatingly closely. And if you have to do that in order to call a map overmapped, it doesn't go to say much about the map. It just says that you're a prick!!!!!1111oneone

In the end, it's about how awkward it is to play, for the people that are able to play it. Something like this should be handled on a case-by-case basis. I stand by my earlier opinion that this would do better as a Guideline.
Last edited by RLC , edited 1 time in total.
val0108
1,430 posts
Joined January 2010
val0108
(like val0108 stuff)
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

wcx19911123 wrote:

it's easy to see the second way bring us more possibility of mapping, it's a better way
Except, that's the wrong definition. Rather, it should look like this:
Dark Fang
1,981 posts
Joined February 2011
Dark Fang

val0108 wrote:

(like val0108 stuff)
Jenny
2,200 posts
Joined November 2010
Jenny
you may put it like that RLC, but the exaggerating example of jumps was sorta irrealistic xP (and val maps are bad because they abuse slider leniency and so use them as a "click once, hit twice" sort of object, but that's my opinion o3o)

flow discussion thread, anyone?
Sync
osu! Alumni
1,575 posts
Joined April 2011
Sync
depends if it's musically tasteful or not

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping
Nyquill
osu! Alumni
1,781 posts
Joined February 2011
Nyquill

Sync wrote:

depends if it's musically tasteful or not

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/29064

Prime example.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Sync wrote:

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping
/thread
RLC
Elite Mapper
1,007 posts
Joined August 2011
RLC

Jenny wrote:

you may put it like that RLC, but the exaggerating example of jumps was sorta irrealistic xP
if they do this about overmapped notes, i don't see what will stop them from doing something like that to overdone jumps.

also

Sync wrote:

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping
exactly
Jenny
2,200 posts
Joined November 2010
Jenny
may i put one of my own maps as an example for slight, additive "overmapping"?

if so, http://osu.ppy.sh/s/77069 - agree?
scanter
2,390 posts
Joined July 2012
scanter
I agree RLC & Dark Fang. I guess, most of players are really want really fun and really creative map.
Last edited by scanter , edited 1 time in total.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
There's no absolute definition of overmapping that states it as 100% bad. It changes with the BPM, the decibel level/pitch, and rhythm itself. Make it a guideline. It's better than nothing at all.
Ulysses
1,911 posts
Joined September 2010
Ulysses
Charles' position:Overmap is not allowed in any time.(Overmap's definition is any slider start/end/circle/spinner end not touch any sound in music even it's a 1/2 or 1/1)

Community's position:Overmap is okay if it is
1.an Insane diff
2.Fun/Fit(subjective thing)

Seems that alomst (I am not dare to say exactly) no one agrees with charles' rule which doesn't allow mappers do any overmap.

You guys get it?
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Sync wrote:

good overmapping won't feel like overmapping
Doesn't change the fact it is overmapping. And that's the problem here; determining whether a map is good should come after whether it follows the music.
RLC
Elite Mapper
1,007 posts
Joined August 2011
RLC
hi those

RLC wrote:

And often times, a map is overmapped / hitsounded in such a way that fits so well you can't even tell it's overmapped without listening to the song excruciatingly closely. And if you have to do that in order to call a map overmapped, it doesn't go to say much about the map. It just says that you're a prick!!!!!1111oneone
thoughts?
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