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[New Rule] Overmapping

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Total Posts
300
Charles445
Elite Mapper II: Aspirant / osu! Paragon
2,881 posts
Joined March 2009
Topic Starter
Charles445
Currently overmapping doesn't have a definition and isn't in the ranking criteria, yet we still enforce it.
It's been unrankable for ages yet nobody can clearly say what it is. Some are more lenient than others.

With a word with no meaning comes conflict and confusion, so I'm proposing a potential definition for "overmapping" to stop it.

Hitcircles and the starts of sliders must be snapped to a beat in the music.

The reasoning behind this is, hitcircles and the starts of sliders are the objects in the game that require the player to press down on time. Spinners and the end of sliders don't require a knowledge of the beat beforehand as they both involve keeping the already pressed button held down.
This is also mirroring the Audio rule "Hitsounds from notes and sliders must be audible." and its exception "The end of a spinner (or even the entire spinner) the sliding sound of a slider, and the end of a slider can be silent".

That's all there is to it. This would allow for the insanity of slider fun maps (like val0108 stuff) but still keep it to the music (no endless streams on a lullaby song).
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
I love you Charles
Starz0r
197 posts
Joined March 2012
Starz0r
Not sure how I feel about this rule.
Andrea
Beatmap Nominator
16,650 posts
Joined August 2008
Andrea
Overmapping can't be truly considered a rule since it's a personal feeling, for some people a map can be overmapped, for some not.

It's totally a subjective thing, so it's impossible to establish a rule for that.

Just throwing my 2 cents here.
Last edited by Andrea , edited 1 time in total.
Chewin
osu! Alumni
4,082 posts
Joined December 2010
Chewin
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/81653

[Chewin's style]
00:06:679 (5) - Circle not in music
00:07:284 (2) - Circle not in music
00:09:102 (4) - Circle not in music
00:46:053 (2) - Circle not in music
These points have been considered overmapped.
1/2 circles are used also to don't break the gameplay/map/rhythm flow.
Overmapping is a subjective thing, adding this rule would solve nothing. You can see by yourself how ALL the mappers add some 1/2 or 1/4 circles to keep a consistent flow in their insane maps. Following your points would just ruin the flow of the map making the maps bad to play.
I want to repeat myself: overmapping is a subjective thing and create a rule on it is just dumb in my opinion.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
This works only for a specific genre of music. There are tons of moments in rock songs where an "intro stream" can work wonders that would come over nothing before the moment you are trying to define.

Overmapping can't be defined by rules. Sadly subjectivity plays a major role here, however what is always true is that the rhythms should be preserved when overmapping does happen. If you have a distinct rhythm such as 3 notes which are 3/4 between each other then it's pretty stupid and pointless to map a stream between the first and the last note. With your rule this would be allowed and it wouldn't make a difference towards the better.

Also this rule would still allow the really disgusting extended sliders which intentionally go past the required rhythm point just to justify "cool rhythms" or "it follows the vocals".

TBH instead of a rule just have a recommendation that mappers shouldn't map notes which are not in the music. Anything more than that will cause endless debates (as you are already familiar with) and will still allow double standards when it comes to certain people.

I personally don't like where this is going at all because I know that some people intentionally do this because they think it's cool, same goes with doubling bpm just for the sake of it.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
Your definition is more like whether the note is 'with the music' but nowhere close to the definition of overmapping. It's more like mapping over the pace that is supposed to be brought by the music, but not identical to the over the beat brought by the music.

Add yes, overmapping is subjective and can't be defined deterministically.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
This rule should be taken to consideration to some extent to at least prevent mappers from making up timings like notes on blue ticks from their imagination that literally follows nothing in the song. That's the worst type of overmapping, and it goes against the whole point of a rhythm game which is to play the song.

Also, mappers should really not spam 1/2s to "keep a flow". Design a map to fit a song, not to fit your interpretation of the song.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
This is never going to be accepted because people like too much their absolutely random 1/4 triples and longer song-unrelated streams. And overmapping should also take unfitting jumps into account, which is impossible to formalize as a rule because it's subjective.
Charles445
Elite Mapper II: Aspirant / osu! Paragon
2,881 posts
Joined March 2009
Topic Starter
Charles445
If something isn't done about overmapping, we won't get anywhere on maps as a team.
Suggest new ideas please, it's better than nothing.

EDIT: Adding to this post since nobody has replied yet

Accepting that "oh, it's all subjective there's nothing that can be done" is a failure on our part. If anything is to happen something concrete must be decided on. It's not time to give up.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Aqo wrote:

Also, mappers should really not spam 1/2s to "keep a flow". Design a map to fit a song, not to fit your interpretation of the song.
Agreed.

Though I would like to point out that trying to define this is pretty pointless. Overmapping is not subjective, it's pretty objective, because you can clearly define it and that is notes which don't happen to be in the music.
However the usage of overmapping is subjective and in half cases it's not wrong at all.

There are quite a lot maps which use overmapping in a really bad taste with all those random triples and other nonsense, however there are pretty well made maps which occasionally add a personal rhythm to complement the song, and do that quite well. Also there are certain genres of music which are really hard to map without overmap (hardcore for example), simply because the song is too static and needs variance.

Charles445 wrote:

If something isn't done about overmapping, we won't get anywhere on maps as a team.
Suggest new ideas please, it's better than nothing.
There doesn't have to be a rule for something for you to say NO to. It's more of a matter why some people say yes in the team. Sadly you just can't define this as you have already seen how discussions like this end up.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
I actually like the idea, but I believe the community might dislike, consider maps like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/53923, which contains some overmapped streams, are really liked by the people, so maybe disallowing all kinds of overmapping isn't such a good idea.

Also think about Mythologia or some cRyo maps.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris

Aqo wrote:

Design a map to fit a song, not to fit your interpretation of the song.
Mapping is about expressing your interpretation of the song, of course. They are accepted in a certain range but it can't be too over and get ranked.

Everyone gets different message from the same song, and mapping is to enforce those messages. Since they are from the song of course your interpretation goes with the original message, otherwise the interpretation might be off.

As far as the rules as an objective measure stands, putting a definition on overmapping is like proving 1+1 = 3, which is just impossible.
Charles445
Elite Mapper II: Aspirant / osu! Paragon
2,881 posts
Joined March 2009
Topic Starter
Charles445

lolcubes wrote:

There doesn't have to be a rule for something for you to say NO to. It's more of a matter why some people say yes in the team.
This is when the mapper starts calling you subjective for saying no to something not explicity listed in the rules. There does have to be a rule for it if the state is to be improved.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
I have no problems with that. Mapper can call me whatever they want really. I will not approve of things I strongly disagree with, be in the rules or not. It's that part of "common sense" which everyone forgot about already.

There used to be a time where mappers actually cared about their own maps rather than just rushing to rank. And it is not mapper's attitude that changed much, it's that stuff was getting allowed and not kept in check.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

wmfchris wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Design a map to fit a song, not to fit your interpretation of the song.
Mapping is about expressing your interpretation of the song, of course. They are accepted in a certain range but it can't be too over and get ranked.
Express how the song feels to you with the spacing between notes.
Not by making up notes that don't follow the song.

That's what I meant.

The "feel" of a map comes from the movement between objects. That's where the mapper has room to express their feelings.
As far as the clicking, my own belief is the same as Charles, it should follow the music 1:1 or else there's no point in mapping a song and you might as well map a blank mp3 purely with hitsounds.
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
if the object isn't bound to a sound or pattern in the music, it's overmapping. how can it be any more concrete than that- that's not subjective.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Agka wrote:

if the object isn't bound to a sound or pattern in the music, it's overmapping. how can it be any more concrete than that- that's not subjective.
Yes, that's what I wrote in my post too. However the problem is how can you define what's acceptable and what is not? You can't.

That's why there are a lot of problems and grey area cases about this around.
Charles445
Elite Mapper II: Aspirant / osu! Paragon
2,881 posts
Joined March 2009
Topic Starter
Charles445
See, there are two main sides on it, those who are for the entire removal of overmapping (i.e. all beats on the music) and those who are against any restriction (beats can go as long as it's rhythmic regardless of the music).

I am striking a balance between the two, where the actual player interaction with the beat must be in the music, however any beats brought by other objects (slider ends or spinners) can be off the music.

The reason why I highly recommend not allowing clicked beats (slider starts and hitcircles) to be in maps with no music is because, in that case, it'd technically be like having wrong timing as the beats are not snapped to the music anymore. A map with horribly off timing could be considered 'overmapped' if hits are allowed to be off the music. See what I'm saying?
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
I can propose something.

Is it fun to play? Yes? To most people? Alright, well done, that's acceptable.

Is it lame/frustrating/unfitting to most people? Yes? Then it has to go.

Ahem. Edit: Is it.. just okay? Take it out. Being in doubt about anything isn't good. Ever.
Last edited by Agka , edited 1 time in total.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Agka wrote:

I can propose something.

Is it fun to play? Yes? To most people? Alright, well done, that's acceptable.

Is it lame/frustrating/unfitting to most people? Yes? Then it has to go.
So, we should hold a poll and ask the whole community to vote?
See how pointless that would be?

Also not that I am dissing people, however I am pretty sure that not everyone can understand rhythms on a more professional level. Also even if they do it's still possible that the opinions differ.

It's just an endless conflict which has no solution but to make mappers use more moderation in how they overmap (or not overmap at all). Sadly there isn't a way to make them do that, and it wouldn't be right either.

Charles445 wrote:

See, there are two main sides on it, those who are for the entire removal of overmapping (i.e. all beats on the music) and those who are against any restriction (beats can go as long as it's rhythmic regardless of the music).

I am striking a balance between the two, where the actual player interaction with the beat must be in the music, however any beats brought by other objects (slider ends or spinners) can be off the music.

The reason why I highly recommend not allowing clicked beats (slider starts and hitcircles) to be in maps with no music is because, in that case, it'd technically be like having wrong timing as the beats are not snapped to the music anymore. A map with horribly off timing could be considered 'overmapped' if hits are allowed to be off the music. See what I'm saying?
Clicking doesn't matter. Audible objects still create rhythms. I understand your point, but I don't think this "balance" you are trying to achieve is going to work, if anything it will cause even more problems. Read my first post in the thread why.
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
You don't need the whole community- just the modders/playtesters/MAT and BAT who agree on being okay or not.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Which is still WAY too many people. If you need to ask someone else about something because you are not sure about it yourself, then that also undermines your ability to judge and stay objective about the matter at hand.

I commend you for trying to find most simple solutions but such things just can't work. Just check some map threads from maps which were unranked for excessive overmap to see why.
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

lolcubes wrote:

Though I would like to point out that trying to define this is pretty pointless. Overmapping is not subjective, it's pretty objective, because you can clearly define it and that is notes which don't happen to be in the music.
However the usage of overmapping is subjective and in half cases it's not wrong at all.

There are quite a lot maps which use overmapping in a really bad taste with all those random triples and other nonsense, however there are pretty well made maps which occasionally add a personal rhythm to complement the song, and do that quite well. Also there are certain genres of music which are really hard to map without overmap (hardcore for example), simply because the song is too static and needs variance.
I completely agree with this, which is why I don't think a rule can really be made on it. And tbh, discussion of it is pretty pointless since these threads always go in circles or into oblivion.
Last edited by Makar , edited 1 time in total.
RLC
Elite Mapper
1,006 posts
Joined August 2011
RLC
let's take an example.

if placebo dying had no 1/4, then the deathstream in the second half of aho's ExtrA would be considered overmapped.
but hey, M2U decided to put some REALLY faint 1/4 in there, and so that deathstream can't be considered overmapped at all. does that suddenly make it a better mapping choice? (hint: no.)

and on the other end of the spectrum, consider some of val's bibuko maps. they contain a lot of overmapped 1/4 stacks, yet they are very natural to hit, as lolcubes was talking about earlier:

lolcubes wrote:

There are tons of moments in rock songs where an "intro stream" can work wonders that would come over nothing before the moment you are trying to define.
overmapping shouldn't be about misrepresenting the notes of a song, and making it about the notes really won't improve mapping very much at all.
for me, overmapping has always been about misrepresenting the overall feel of a song... and the feel of a song is clearly subjective.

tl;dr: suggestion, not rule, would work better for something like this
Last edited by RLC , edited 1 time in total.
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
I'm just trying to help. At worst, my random contributions still manage to help other people realize what everyone thinks about that, I guess.

Though, remember, the only one who can really decide on something being of quality is the people who realize a project- and of course, the people who enjoy/bash it.

People in charge along with creator should have the final say, of course. It's impossible to regulate if something is good or not- I agree completely, but calls must be done, mostly for overall quality, even if the overmapping is the main issue. Even if there's no rule in place. Not having a rule in place might allow us to decide on this per-case basis, so if you're against this rule, that's okay.

At any rate, let the players sort it out; let them say "We like this" or "We hate this".
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
I would change it to
Hitcircles and the starts and end of sliders and the end of spinners must be snapped to a beat in the music.
Then it would be perfect.
RLC
Elite Mapper
1,006 posts
Joined August 2011
RLC

those wrote:

I would change it to
Hitcircles and the starts and end of sliders and the end of spinners must be snapped to a beat in the music.
Then it would be perfect.
except that flies completely against the logic stated in the next line:

Charles445 wrote:

The reasoning behind this is, hitcircles and the starts of sliders are the objects in the game that require the player to press down on time.
so yeah. let's not.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
Whereas osu!mania requires the player to let go within a particular time frame. I don't see the issue of adding this if it will prevent bad (if not worse) translations.

Offtopic: I don't see why standard sliders allow the player to hold indefinitely and still be scored the same on accuracy.
RLC
Elite Mapper
1,006 posts
Joined August 2011
RLC
osu!standard maps are mapped to be played in osu!standard. and this isn't just me saying this; i've been told this by a number of BATs.
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
well, osu!mania translations are not a reason to force rules onto standard, those.
cheesiest
721 posts
Joined September 2009
cheesiest

RLC wrote:

osu!standard maps are mapped to be played in osu!standard. and this isn't just me saying this; i've been told this by a number of BATs.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Agka wrote:

well, osu!mania translations are not a reason to force rules onto standard, those.
Nowhere am I forcing anything. If it is a step toward improvement, why not suggest it?

Also, until the day that this "All" turns into Standard, as far as I know the map will have to be available for All game modes:


I'm not aware of any rule saying otherwise, anyway.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
Err, I'll just point out the whole polarity changing thing, which would make a lot of stuff considered "overmapped" by the OP definition (unless they use sliderends, which just doesn't always work if there aren't any "hold" notes present).

Also 1:1 between the beats in the music and the map would be a horrible idea. Mapping should be 1:1 between the map and the song/music, as in your subjective feeling. It's kind of like slider velocity; some songs that could be mapped with, say 1.6 or 1.8 SV could very well be mapped with 1.2 and using short, small sliderjumps to capture a distinct feeling of small breaks in the music. Not that this is related to overmapping anyway (unless your subjective feeling of the song is that the jumps doesn't fit the song at all).

Keep a rule for no excessive overmap, link to a wiki page describing overmap, how it can be used well in some cases, but other times work bad. Include examples that *ATs can point to. Then just state that in the case that there are disagreement, discuss with other *ATs (this shouldn't happen often if the wiki is thorough with it) and say that in the end, the *ATs have the last say or something or other.
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
the "All" option (given that there's no standard option) implies that it's the standard version. I can see you want to improve on that, but that's getting away from the main point- standard mode maps.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I tried submitting a rule like this. It got nuked because it was too subjective. It will need to be more specific than <insert subjective adjective> amounts of overmapping or banning it in general. The definition of overmapping is multifaceted.

A pattern is deemed overmapped if:

1. Hitobjects do not land on an identifiable sound.
2. The objects in their current orientation do not match the tempo of the part of music being mapped.
3. The overmapping is noticeable while playing and negatively affects the flow of the map.

the last part is subjective. It's really not possible to have standards that aren't.
Last edited by TheVileOne , edited 1 time in total.
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
We already defined overmapping though. We need to see the cases where it's a go or it needs ouendan.
LKs
3,119 posts
Joined August 2009
LKs
Fair enough

Different diffs should have different standards tho. As for highest diff we should consider more if it feels really okay when there is no beat. That's to say leaving a bit leeway to discuss when some circumstances are reached.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
I still believe that you shall represent the song you are mapping, so I see no reason how mapping something, that doesn't exis in any layer of the music is helpin representing the actual mp3.
Maybe we can work with a definition of musical layers, since most songs have more than 1. And overmapping might start there, when you map something that:
1.) represents none of the given layers
2.) represents too many layers at once so it's unclear which
3.) swaps too frequent between the layers so you don't know what to follow

Feel free to expand the idea
Frostmourne
osu! Alumni
3,733 posts
Joined November 2009
Frostmourne

cheesiest wrote:

RLC wrote:

osu!standard maps are mapped to be played in osu!standard. and this isn't just me saying this; i've been told this by a number of BATs.
I can quote this numerous times.
osu! is osu! , why does it have to be related to other modes?
That makes all the maps, which have the obvious changes of slider velocity like 1.0->1.5, unrankable due to the Taiko mode.
It definitely doesn't not make sense if someone refers to the other modes.

also
Overmapping will be bad for the players who want to hit everything according to the music strictly.
Overmapping will be fun for the players who want to hit everything that they are familiar(like most of maps) and get fun of it.

It just sounds bad if the overmapping is placed on where are not appropriate(which you can hear and feel unfitting about it)
but sometimes it's also well done if the overmapping is placed on the right spot.
I will say NO to this rule because this will lead to the shitstorm.
and Jump is also considered overmapping as well. No one wants to see the map that follows the music strictly 100% but has the placements like TAG maps.

anyways, it's our"common sense"to judge if the overmapping is acceptable or not that you have to judge depending on each maps individually.
Let the community tell the mapper (from its feedbacks, comments on the maps, rating, etc.) if it's bad or not.
popner
osu! Alumni
2,407 posts
Joined March 2011
popner
Technically overmapping can't be defined as 'putting note where there is no sound', because mappers are free to put beats in mp3.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
You're being brainwashed. Stop believing that.
UnderminE
osu! Alumni
4,011 posts
Joined August 2010
UnderminE

those wrote:

Also, until the day that this "All" turns into Standard, as far as I know the map will have to be available for All game modes:


I'm not aware of any rule saying otherwise, anyway.
Exactly
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro

lolcubes wrote:

There doesn't have to be a rule for something for you to say NO to. It's more of a matter why some people say yes in the team.
Because some mappers in the team are blatant users of obvious overmapping. Most if not all maps nowadays would be overmapped by this definition, but not all use overmapping in a bad way. The problem is a problem of how much it fits and flows, again. The BAT has always accepted streams leading to finishes when there is no actual 1/4 in the song because in most cases it plays well.
The problem with overmapping is when it becomes abusive, like 3/4 sliders or random triples. This needs to be stopped because it's plain confusing and doesn't play well.
spboxer3
Global Moderator
3,616 posts
Joined November 2009
spboxer3

those wrote:

You're being brainwashed. Stop believing that.
Actually, I'd rather believe mapping is remix the song not only fit the song :/
Why do you limit mapper's creativity? some "overmapping" maps are bad I agree this opinion. However we not only have bad map but also have some outstanding "overmapping" map. That was why we need XAT and XAT should judge the map is good enough be ranked or just a piece of shit :/
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
This is a rhythm game. Per se, rhythm games are defined as a simulation genre that makes you perform on a song.
You are free to be creative, as long as you stay in the frame. You put creativity as "highest goal", when you totally forget the purpose of what you do: "mapping something for the song you create a stage for".
You are free to express music, as you as you express the music, not the everlasting desire to express your artistic creativity for the sake of being outstanding and unique.
Many "creative" things are so forcefully "creative", that it's just appearing invented.

And tbh the subjective frame of expressing something that is given is very limited. Since you have something to guide yourself at.
This rule is an attempt to find this "limit", since right now we have none.

Sometimes, art might be art - but stays to be shit at the same moment.
Scorpiour
2,633 posts
Joined May 2011
Scorpiour
rhythem != music
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav

Scorpiour wrote:

rhythem != music
You are misunderstanding the word "rhythm" in a musical context then.
Scorpiour
2,633 posts
Joined May 2011
Scorpiour

Loctav wrote:

Scorpiour wrote:

rhythem != music
You are misunderstanding the word "rhythm" in a musical context then.
maybe.. maybe not :>

you know, there won't be only one or two tracks in a music, so sometimes how to judge "which rhythm to follow" is only depended on mappers' understanding :>

that's why i say "rhythm != music"
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
That's what I described with my layers-approach, You should read it p/2210450 o:
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