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FL and HR hipocresy.

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +104
Darkan996
22 posts
Joined March 2014
Topic Starter
Darkan996
FL it's by far the worst mod in the last few years at least. The thing with FL it's that you don't really need any intensive skill to FC something with FL. Don't take me wrong FL plays are amazing but when doing FL plays you are not improving in a lot of ways. I mean that, if you play a map hundreds of times, you will get the FL FC, but you will not improve in anything besides memori with that only map. If you can FC a 5* map, and then go FL an try it for 500 hundreds times and get the FC, then you can just FC a 5.70* map becouse you haven't improve for get better at the game in general, you have improve only with that map memory. With HR in the other hand, reaccently got your first 5* FC map, and then try it whit HR, it dosen't matter how many times you play, if you don't improve your read AR speed aim and other stuff, u will never FC that, but if you FC the 5*map with HR, you will probably FC a 5.76* (or so) map to, you will improve!

This was only an introduction for the actual hipocresy, i mean, get an FC with FL it's easyer im some way that get an FC with HR, and that's is demostrated in the PP. FC with HR will give you more PP that FC with FL. A guy with hundreds of tries can FC a map with FL, but if the same guy dosen't have the skill to do it with HR he will never FC the song, that's why FL plays are easier in some way, a low level player can FC FL plays but not HR FC the same play, becouse he dosen't have skill.

But why I explain all of this to you? Well easy, HR it's a 0.06 and FL a 0.12, WTF and why is this? It should be backwards, if we just established that FL it's in some way easy than HR, why HR has a lower multiplyer? The perfect exampel it's this song "https://osu.ppy.sh/s/269969" The top play is a FLHD by Ner0, amazing play, impresive, the only one who do this, but only worth 432pp, and the HRHD plays worth 507, besides that the FL play it's top 1 and the HDHR FC SS it's top 2, and this last being the hardest play of both.

But wait?!?! If FL plays are acctually easy why is not everybody pp farming them? Well, becouse they don't wan't to expend time on doing a crazy FL play jus't for a little more of PP, and 0 improve in all of your other gameplay, it's just simply don't worth the time do FL plays.

What im asking is a change of the multiplyers, DT should give arround 0.18 HR 0.12 FL 0.12 and HD 0.06 maybe FL should be 0.06? Im not sure, probablly are u asking "Why DT 0.18? Dt sucks Kappa" Well, that's becouse if you combines HRHD together will give 0.18 mult wich is the same as DT, wich is the same situacion that it's happend in acctual osu! If you combined HRHD you get 0.12 and DT it's worth 0.12.

I hope everyone understand my point becouse Im from Argentina, don't speak or write engilsh very well. Im wating for feedback and thanks for read.

Edit: I edit the controversyal part of "Eliminate FL from the game"
Last edited by Darkan996 , edited 1 time in total.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Noticing that you don't have a single FL score in Top 50 I cannot help but quote CXu:
"Anyone who has never played FL seriously should not talk about the skills required to play FL."
You are a decent player judging from your profile so please go ahead and FC a 4* map with 400 combo or higher. If you ask for ridiculous things such as deleting an entire mod from the game, you should have a very strong foundation about it and from the looks of it you never really bothered with it in the first place.
autoteleology
763 posts
Joined October 2014
autoteleology
Guy with no HD or FL plays wants to talk about how map reading mods don't take any skill.

abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
Is this some kind of new copy pasta?
Piixers
0 posts
Joined April 2016
Piixers

Darkan996 wrote:

FL it's by far the worst mod in the last few years at least. The thing with FL it's that you don't really need any intensive skill to FC something with FL. Don't take me wrong FL plays are amazing but when doing FL plays you are not improving in a lot of ways. I mean that, if you play a map hundreds of times, you will get the FL FC, but you will not improve in anything besides memori with that only map. If you can FC a 5* map, and then go FL an try it for 500 hundreds times and get the FC, then you can just FC a 5.70* map becouse you haven't improve for get better at the game in general, you have improve only with that map memory. With HR in the other hand, reaccently got your first 5* FC map, and then try it whit HR, it dosen't matter how many times you play, if you don't improve your read AR speed aim and other stuff, u will never FC that, but if you FC the 5*map with HR, you will probably FC a 5.76* (or so) map to, you will improve!

This was only an introduction for the actual hipocresy, i mean, get an FC with FL it's easyer im some way that get an FC with HR, and that's is demostrated in the PP. FC with HR will give you more PP that FC with FL. A guy with hundreds of tries can FC a map with FL, but if the same guy dosen't have the skill to do it with HR he will never FC the song, that's why FL plays are easier in some way, a low level player can FC FL plays but not HR FC the same play, becouse he dosen't have skill.

But why I explain all of this to you? Well easy, HR it's a 0.06 and FL a 0.12, WTF and why is this? It should be backwards, if we just established that FL it's in some way easy than HR, why HR has a lower multiplyer? The perfect exampel it's this song "https://osu.ppy.sh/s/269969" The top play is a FLHD by Ner0, amazing play, impresive, the only one who do this, but only worth 432pp, and the HRHD plays worth 507, besides that the FL play it's top 1 and the HDHR FC SS it's top 2, and this last being the hardest play of both.

But wait?!?! If FL plays are acctually easy why is not everybody pp farming them? Well, becouse they don't wan't to expend time on doing a crazy FL play jus't for a little more of PP, and 0 improve in all of your other gameplay, it's just simply don't worth the time do FL plays.

What im asking is a change of the multiplyers, DT should give arround 0.18 HR 0.12 FL 0.12 and HD 0.06 maybe FL should be 0.06? Im not sure, probablly are u asking "Why DT 0.18? Dt sucks Kappa" Well, that's becouse if you combines HRHD together will give 0.18 mult wich is the same as DT, wich is the same situacion that it's happend in acctual osu! If you combined HRHD you get 0.12 and DT it's worth 0.12.

I will make another post on how to kinda fix FL problem, I have think about it and the best option it's just delete it from the game, it's has a lot of controvensyal involved if you think heavely arround it.

I hope everyone understand my point becouse Im from Argentina, don't speak or write engilsh very well. Im wating for feedback and thanks for read.

Just to remember that in the game there are also easy and normal diffs that are always played with FL (3-4 mods) and there is a community that plays these maps every day to make tops 50, 8 and above all #1's. FL in high-star difficulties can be considered more like a fun and not a mod to improve... but delete FL means delete a large community that you probably don't even know.
Darkan996
22 posts
Joined March 2014
Topic Starter
Darkan996
Well let's start answering your questions.

Endaris wrote:

Noticing that you don't have a single FL score in Top 50 I cannot help but quote CXu:
"Anyone who has never played FL seriously should not talk about the skills required to play FL."
You are a decent player judging from your profile so please go ahead and FC a 4* map with 400 combo or higher. If you ask for ridiculous things such as deleting an entire mod from the game, you should have a very strong foundation about it and from the looks of it you never really bothered with it in the first place.
You are right, I have less to none FL plays, the only good FL play that I have it's a pokemon map "https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1412291" FC 2x100 99.33 with easy mod, just becouse I found it fun to FC with FL and Easy so i canno't talk very much about FL plays, but i think i have exp enough to backup mi quotes and also I just made that play becouse i found FL and EZ the hardest mods. But when I said that FL was easy, it's just in some way, I mean this becouse it's really diff to balance the mod in the game. I will write more of this later in this coment. Yeah, I shouldn't say that FL should be eliminated from the game, becouse in my hole coment i wasn't argue that, and sadly all of the coment's answering me focus on that. I said that becouse FL it's a really diff mod to balance if you think hard enough. Plays with more duration should give you more PP with FL, becouse you have to memorise more map, that in a 30 second map. Plays with low circle size should give you more PP with FL, becouse you have to memorize more precise where the circle is. Plays with long jumps should give more PP with FL becouse you have to meomrise and act in consecuence of things that you cannot see only memorise. So programing all of this, is nearly imposible to do it automatic, you will have to review all of the maps to watch carefully how much PP they will give with FL, and becouse of that I think that is easier to just delete it the mod. But I think about it later on when I post this, I came to another conclussion, you guys are right, if this is well programed, will be no problem, so i think that you don't need to eliminated FL but if is going to leave the things like this, it's better to fix the problems that have. So I said all of this things to you to prove that I have a "very strong foundation about it" and not only look like I never think about FL, I will expose this same arguments in another post as I said in mi main coment

Darkan996 wrote:

I will make another post on how to kinda fix FL problem, I have think about it and the best option it's just delete it from the game, it's has a lot of controvensyal involved if you think heavely arround it.
I wasn't argue in this coment why FL should be eliminate it, it was only that FL needs a change in the multp. Sadly looks like no one has understand mi point.

Emersyne wrote:

Guy with no HD or FL plays wants to talk about how map reading mods don't take any skill.

You are right I have no FL or HD plays in my top at least. I have a hard time reading HD hahaha. But i will explain why "FL takes no skill" at least in some way. Reding songs it's very hard, specially with HD, i cannot read songs of my level with HD, I never sayd that reading it's an easy skill. I said that FL it's easy, and it is! Think it closely, It's hard to make an FL play? Yes becouse you have to memorise the map you don't have to "Read FL", what you do it's memorise the map. But if a player continiusly plays a map, he memorise it completely and FL FC it, it's that really skill? Whe can considarate memorise a single map at is "Skill" you don't read more AR you don't have lower circle size, you don't have to read the map in another way or play it faster, you just have to memorise it. The reason becouse i said that takes no skill, it's becouse even Cookiezi the best player in the world, could failed a jumpy map with FL, and he is the guy with MORE SKILL IN THE WORLD, but even him couldn't FC it in the first time. He will have (as anybody alse in 5* fc lvl of skill do) to memorise the map. It's not about skill it's about memory.

abraker wrote:

Is this some kind of new copy pasta?
What do you mean?

Piixers wrote:

Just to remember that in the game there are also easy and normal diffs that are always played with FL (3-4 mods) and there is a community that plays these maps every day to make tops 50, 8 and above all #1's. FL in high-star difficulties can be considered more like a fun and not a mod to improve... but delete FL means delete a large community that you probably don't even know.
You are right, i don't wanna lose that community, that's why I reconsiderate my mind about it. I answer this in the early paragraphs of this comment.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

Darkan996 wrote:

What do you mean?
That was my reaction to how insane this suggestion is. It must be a copy-paste meme. It might not appear insane to you, but you kinda went on a rant that screams how you hate the top scores being all FL while the mod being irrelevant to your desired skillset. If you did attempt to say anything reasonable, than that hatred of yours toward FL spoke louder.

Darkan996 wrote:

Whe can considarate memorise a single map at is "Skill" you don't read more AR you don't have lower circle size, you don't have to read the map in another way or play it faster, you just have to memorise it.
Memorizing the map while it is visible is one thing, but while it is invisible, that's another. While the map is visible, you are playing it by reaction and reading most of the time. You need to memorize select few parts which tend to trip you up. FL requires more memorization of note locations, and that impacts performance since you are now recalling from memory instead of reacting and reading. It's easier to look and react than to recall from memory.

Darkan996 wrote:

Whe can considarate memorise a single map at is "Skill" you don't read more AR you don't have lower circle size, you don't have to read the map in another way or play it faster, you just have to memorise it. The reason becouse i said that takes no skill, it's becouse even Cookiezi the best player in the world, could failed a jumpy map with FL, and he is the guy with MORE SKILL IN THE WORLD, but even him couldn't FC it in the first time. He will have (as anybody alse in 5* fc lvl of skill do) to memorise the map. It's not about skill it's about memory.
You say FL has no skill because it only deals with memorization. That it is an easy thing to do given enough time. Stop and think about it. Everything in osu! is an easy thing to do given enough time. There is a reason you hear the most popular saying when a player cries to the community asking how to get better, "play more". Reading -infinity AR is an easy thing to do given enough time. 300 BPM jumps is an easy thing to do given enough time. Anything will get easier if you practice it, and while you are practicing it, you learn how to do it, and learning is entirely memory based.

All your skills are aspects of your memory. To do those things, the player needs to develop various memories for such things, memories that are independent of FL and are unrelated to recollecting note positions. It's remembering how fingers should tap, remembering how a jump should turn, remembering how the movement of a star pattern, etc. A non FL player is too dependent on reading notes and reacting to what is on screen to develop a well enough memory for note positions or "picture" of patterns in the map. To say FL doesn't require skill is being either ignorant of FL requiring some sort of skill or being ignorant that memorization of certain information is a skill (maybe both?).

--------------------------------------

Ok, so hopefully we established that FL requires a type of skill only specific to it. So does this mean FL is overated? Yes and no. You should know that difficulty calculation is fucked as hell and very inaccurate at times. More so that star rating doesn't consider FL. Flat multiplier also doesn't do justice when you consider repetitive/technical map, which may need less effort to memorize than a more chaotic map with same star rating. I am always an advocate in abolishing the flat multipliers, but before that can be done, difficulty calc needs to get its shit together.


Try to think about what I said and think about what kind of challenges FL gives the player. Consider extremely long maps and how much memorizing them might be worth. Start playing FL and come back when you have at least a bit of the perspective an FL player would have. You may learn a thing or two.

I want to see more FL plays here:
Darkan996
22 posts
Joined March 2014
Topic Starter
Darkan996

abraker wrote:

Darkan996 wrote:

What do you mean?
That was my reaction to how insane this suggestion is. It must be a copy-paste meme. It might not appear insane to you, but you kinda went on a rant that screams how you hate the top scores being all FL while the mod being irrelevant to your desired skillset. If you did attempt to say anything reasonable, than that hatred of yours toward FL spoke louder.
Well at least in my level of playing, the top scores all allways HDHR or DTHD, don't know what low level top plays you play. So I really don't care if the top play is or not FL.

abraker wrote:

Darkan996 wrote:

Whe can considarate memorise a single map at is "Skill" you don't read more AR you don't have lower circle size, you don't have to read the map in another way or play it faster, you just have to memorise it.
Memorizing the map while it is visible is one thing, but while it is invisible, that's another. While the map is visible, you are playing it by reaction and reading most of the time. You need to memorize select few parts which tend to trip you up. FL requires more memorization of note locations, and that impacts performance since you are now recalling from memory instead of reacting and reading. It's easier to look and react than to recall from memory.
What you say here just recalls what i am saying. Bassicly FL is all just memory, wich is a skill only required for FL mods, at least in mayor way. I even state in some part of my comment that FL it's one of the hardest mods with the game, (same as EZ) and now I said that both of them are kinda memory base. FL a lot more than EZ, EZ it's a reading mod, one of the most harder mods in the entire game.

abraker wrote:

Darkan996 wrote:

Whe can considarate memorise a single map at is "Skill" you don't read more AR you don't have lower circle size, you don't have to read the map in another way or play it faster, you just have to memorise it. The reason becouse i said that takes no skill, it's becouse even Cookiezi the best player in the world, could failed a jumpy map with FL, and he is the guy with MORE SKILL IN THE WORLD, but even him couldn't FC it in the first time. He will have (as anybody alse in 5* fc lvl of skill do) to memorise the map. It's not about skill it's about memory.
You say FL has no skill because it only deals with memorization. That it is an easy thing to do given enough time. Stop and think about it. Everything in osu! is an easy thing to do given enough time. There is a reason you hear the most popular saying when a player cries to the community asking how to get better, "play more". Reading -infinity AR is an easy thing to do given enough time. 300 BPM jumps is an easy thing to do given enough time. Anything will get easier if you practice it, and while you are practicing it, you learn how to do it, and learning is entirely memory based.

All your skills are aspects of your memory. To do those things, the player needs to develop various memories for such things, memories that are independent of FL and are unrelated to recollecting note positions. It's remembering how fingers should tap, remembering how a jump should turn, remembering how the movement of a star pattern, etc. A non FL player is too dependent on reading notes and reacting to what is on screen to develop a well enough memory for note positions or "picture" of patterns in the map. To say FL doesn't require skill is being either ignorant of FL requiring some sort of skill or being ignorant that memorization of certain information is a skill (maybe both?).
Yeah FL only deals with memorization a skill that isn't almost unneed in the rest of the game only for a few exceptions (talking about only the current rankign system), the problem with "Yeah just play more osu! and you will be better!!" It's true, but it dosen't fully aply in FL... You see, if you play a lot A LOT OF FL like a man who only plays with HD, A TON OF FL, ONLY FL MAIN SINCE BETTA (Kappa) you will be better!! But only with the song that you play with FL.... If you practice ar9.5 keep on practice, you will be better with ALL the songs with ar9.5, but not with FL, since memory only is usefull in one map at the time. I have said this i and will say this again (becouse looks like you don't even read the hole coment lol) I said that FL was easy becouse it's an easy mode in some way, but in another is the most difficult one of all mods! Imagine, even cookiezi AKA the best player in the world, will never FC any map with 5.6 stars or more with FL in his first time, Cookiezi and none one. So if you take that in account it's the hardest mod! But FL sucks becouse it's dosent reward you for beeing a good player, it's reward you for playing the map over and over hundreds of times, and memorize it. The reason becouse I said it's easy is that, becouse a normie lvl player like me could win in a 1vs1 againts anybody if we play a map that I had an FC with FL on it and he havent even play it for the first time. Anybody literally. It's easy for me but hard for them. It's takes no skill becouse, it's dosent reward you for have skill, (even if you are an ONLY FL player you will NEVER fc a FL map at first try).

But still, that isnt the point of the post, the point was, thinking if we should lower the multp of FL becouse it's anti-intuitive that a mod with higher mult gives less PP. It's just have no sence.

The fun thing is that you said that Im the one who dosen't know about FL, and im the ignorant of FL, and you can't even FC a 4.21 star map. Even if you play with FL, the 4.21 star map (that you don't) you still don't know anything about the world of FL that's it's a lot harder when the large jumps start to appear in the maps (5.4 stars and above) wich is when FL becomes really hard. Myself can't even try this things becouse I get fucked. And you remark that I don't play FL, when i addmit this, why you should bring it back? I said this (and don't quote becouse the system to quote is shit and im tired of it) "You are right, I have less to none FL plays, the only good FL play that I have it's a pokemon map "https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1412291" FC 2x100 99.33 with easy mod, just becouse I found it fun to FC with FL and Easy so i canno't talk very much about FL plays, but i think i have exp enough to backup mi quotes and also I just made that play becouse i found FL and EZ the hardest mods. But when I said that FL was easy, it's just in some way, I mean this becouse it's really diff to balance the mod in the game. " I even state than i found FL and EZ the hardest mods, and later I explain why I wanted to eliminate it, but now i don't, I encourege you to read my comment before anwser it lol. And for leave this clear, you are the one who started with the personal attack, let's just leave it there, shall we? If you may, just talk about the actual hipocresy of FL and HR please, i will make another post to disccuse this, another day if im borred, and I will give you a link if you want to talk with me in that post. Thanks for you replay, at least I get some fun out of anwser you, since you are the only one who anwser me.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

Darkan996 wrote:

...
Anything on the second to last paragraph?

abraker wrote:

So does this mean FL is overated? Yes and no. You should know that difficulty calculation is fucked as hell and very inaccurate at times. More so that star rating doesn't consider FL. Flat multiplier also doesn't do justice when you consider repetitive/technical map, which may need less effort to memorize than a more chaotic map with same star rating. I am always an advocate in abolishing the flat multipliers, but before that can be done, difficulty calc needs to get its shit together.
The whole reason we are having this argument in the first place is how out of wack scoring and difficulty calc is. I would start by fixing those, and you do that by examining how hard it is memorize a map- How many retries it will take would be difficulty. And compare that to how many retries a new player will need to memorize how to move finger and hand to aim and tap notes as basic skills needed for osu!. Compare that to how long it takes for a player to become efficient enough to do higher AR. And compare that to how long it will take for a player to lean how to FL a multi-hour map.
Darkan996
22 posts
Joined March 2014
Topic Starter
Darkan996

abraker wrote:

The whole reason we are having this argument in the first place is how out of wack scoring and difficulty calc is. I would start by fixing those, and you do that by examining how hard it is memorize a map- How many retries it will take would be difficulty. And compare that to how many retries a new player will need to memorize how to move finger and hand to aim and tap notes as basic skills needed for osu!. Compare that to how long it takes for a player to become efficient enough to do higher AR. And compare that to how long it will take for a player to lean how to FL a multi-hour map.
Thats a cool idea.
Akanagi
492 posts
Joined February 2017
Akanagi
Why complain about FL and not HD, though.
Darkan996
22 posts
Joined March 2014
Topic Starter
Darkan996

Rayne wrote:

Why complain about FL and not HD, though.
Im complaing about FL and HR hipocresy, not if HR, HD or FL are over or lowerated.
worst fl player
worst fl player
A person complaining about a mod what he has never truly played?????
Lancien
132 posts
Joined February 2014
Lancien

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

A person complaining about a mod what he has never truly played?????
Ney
120 posts
Joined February 2015
Ney

Paper wrote:

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

A person complaining about a mod what he has never truly played?????
Shaper
41 posts
Joined October 2016
Shaper

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

A person complaining about a mod what he has never truly played?????
[-Griffin-]
8 posts
Joined September 2015
[-Griffin-]

Sundae wrote:

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

A person complaining about a mod what he has never truly played?????
Dagresha
56 posts
Joined December 2013
Dagresha
u should take a look at scorev2 multipliers - the fl nerf u wanted is already planned! i believe under scorev2 fl only would give much less score than DT or HDHR, also HDFL would no longer be able to beat HDDT (i had a screenshot of all exact mod values but i can't find it)

as for the specifics, i don't think u should be talking about the exact numbers of multipliers or pp when you're an only-nomod player. please get a first place rank on a map and hold it for at least a week, because until then you wouldn't be able to appreciate the true difficulty of fl.

this is a nice post and you have an interesting idea - some aspects of which i can agree with - but sadly i don't think it's worth such a long post when you don't have much experience with what you're talking about
- Ed -
56 posts
Joined July 2014
- Ed -
Jatie
81 posts
Joined July 2014
Jatie
Yes I definitely think 1 trick pony hddt scores should beat hdhrfl scores where people actually put effort into the score 8-)
Larc
291 posts
Joined July 2016
Larc

Darkan996 wrote:

I will make another post on how to kinda fix FL problem, I have think about it and the best option it's just delete it from the game, it's has a lot of controvensyal involved if you think heavely arround it.
u should consider with another mode

In Mania..

I need FL for reducing heavy notes appeared..
This mod help me to not panic when facing massive notes..

i think...
feature request means add new features. Not delete old features.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

edgerrdz wrote:

How do you post this and shoot 5 stars to this request? I don't get it.

CoffeeLatte- wrote:

u should consider with another mode

In Mania..

I need FL for reducing heavy notes appeared..
I'd like to think anything OP wants to do with FL would be specific to standard and not other gamemodes. If not, this is gonna burst into flames and be nuked even faster
Larc
291 posts
Joined July 2016
Larc

abraker wrote:

I'd like to think anything OP wants to do with FL would be specific to standard and not other gamemodes. If not, this is gonna burst into flames and be nuked even faster
i shitposting like the others do Im just replied his specific sentences and not agree with delete FL mod.
There are still have another ways rather than delete it from the game.
Darkan996
22 posts
Joined March 2014
Topic Starter
Darkan996

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

A person complaining about a mod what he has never truly played?????
Im not complaining about FL, not in this post at least. It's was just a comment with no arguments to argue in the hole other coment, i say why i think that should be eliminate it and a lot of stuff but i bet you and any other who paste this don't read the other coments. In that I explain miself, but the point of the comment wasnt complaing about FL, that's why don't have arguments supporting that. Idk that complaning about FL will make a lot of peaple salty LOL.

Dagresha wrote:

u should take a look at scorev2 multipliers - the fl nerf u wanted is already planned! i believe under scorev2 fl only would give much less score than DT or HDHR, also HDFL would no longer be able to beat HDDT (i had a screenshot of all exact mod values but i can't find it)

as for the specifics, i don't think u should be talking about the exact numbers of multipliers or pp when you're an only-nomod player. please get a first place rank on a map and hold it for at least a week, because until then you wouldn't be able to appreciate the true difficulty of fl.

this is a nice post and you have an interesting idea - some aspects of which i can agree with - but sadly i don't think it's worth such a long post when you don't have much experience with what you're talking about
Oh that's nice, idk that about scorev2. I really don't need to have much exp to say playing FL to say that the multp are wrong. I mean, or you make FL give more PP or you make HR give less or you change the multp it's not about playing or not the mod, it's just logic. I just expresed one form to do it, but you can fix this making FL give more PP than HR, becouse it's should, taking acount FL has a higher mulpt.

Jatie wrote:

Yes I definitely think 1 trick pony hddt scores should beat hdhrfl scores where people actually put effort into the score 8-)
This is probably sarcasm. So.. i don't say that in my post, HRHDFL plays will beat HDDT, check the mulpt that I suggest.

CoffeeLatte- wrote:

Darkan996 wrote:

I will make another post on how to kinda fix FL problem, I have think about it and the best option it's just delete it from the game, it's has a lot of controvensyal involved if you think heavely arround it.
u should consider with another mode

In Mania..

I need FL for reducing heavy notes appeared..
This mod help me to not panic when facing massive notes..

i think...
feature request means add new features. Not delete old features.
I was thinking only in Osu! standar, since that's why I play only, but I will take this into account now, thanks.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Before I am going to ask if you're actually capable to understand the mods you put in critic, I'd suggest to put this stuff in Gameplay & Rankings in future. Yes, this is a thread about changing mods' calculation but this is by far more sensitive than changing the behaviour of a feature or to optimize utilities in the client.

Since this thread reads like something you usually find in the G&R forums it'd also be good involve people in this discussion who has experience with said mods. And by all honesty, I don't think you can provide enough experience to carry the complaint towards Flashlight mod.
Tanomoshii Nekojou
503 posts
Joined November 2010
Tanomoshii Nekojou

Sundae wrote:

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

A person complaining about a mod what he has never truly played?????

Stefan wrote:

And by all honesty, I don't think you can provide enough experience to carry the complaint towards Flashlight mod.
very nice. :3
Darkan996
22 posts
Joined March 2014
Topic Starter
Darkan996

Stefan wrote:

Before I am going to ask if you're actually capable to understand the mods you put in critic, I'd suggest to put this stuff in Gameplay & Rankings in future. Yes, this is a thread about changing mods' calculation but this is by far more sensitive than changing the behaviour of a feature or to optimize utilities in the client.

Since this thread reads like something you usually find in the G&R forums it'd also be good involve people in this discussion who has experience with said mods.
That was nice! I will check that out soon, thanks! Im think I am very capable to understand the mod at least for what im asking, its a hipocresy about this 2 mods, the thread isnt for talking if FL it's easy or not, that's another thing that comes for a missunderstand of the thread and a separede comment of it. You don't need a lot of experience with the mod if you are going to say that the multp of the mod it's wrong, comparing to other mods, that's base on the mulpt should be easier but the PP system dosen't think like that. It's an hipocresy, im not talking about the mod being easy or harder, not in the main thread at least.

Stefan wrote:

And by all honesty, I don't think you can provide enough experience to carry the complaint towards Flashlight mod.
The experience that I have with FL it's 0. But, even so, tell me why I need experience with FL when Im talking to change the mulpt of it?
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

Darkan996 wrote:

The experience that I have with FL it's 0. But, even so, tell me why I need experience with FL when Im talking to change the mulpt of it?
just change your op to focus on how bad the multipliers are instead of focusing mod(s) which people accuse you for not having enough experience with. I know there is multiplier talk in there, but the slightest mention of talking what is easier and harder and who can do what like here:

This was only an introduction for the actual hipocresy, i mean, get an FC with FL it's easyer im some way that get an FC with HR, and that's is demostrated in the PP. FC with HR will give you more PP that FC with FL. A guy with hundreds of tries can FC a map with FL, but if the same guy dosen't have the skill to do it with HR he will never FC the song, that's why FL plays are easier in some way, a low level player can FC FL plays but not HR FC the same play, becouse he dosen't have skill.
is gonna attract eyes and will cause people profile check whoever wrote that. Obviously they see your profile and agree that your judgment of which player can do what makes sense for someone who has no experience with the thing at hand.
Darkan996
22 posts
Joined March 2014
Topic Starter
Darkan996

abraker wrote:

is gonna attract eyes and will cause people profile check whoever wrote that. Obviously they see your profile and agree that your judgment of which player can do what makes sense for someone who has no experience with the thing at hand.
Well in this one you are completly right. Or almost, i should say. When I was writing that I was thinking in the other post that I will do disscusing that topic. The point of the comment was explain a argument that I will use when i make that post, and i shouldn't do that, was my bad.

The argument is base in the fact that you don't necesarry be good at the game of a hole to FC a map with FL, if you can easily FC the song with no mod, or HD, if you tried times enough you will FC with FL. It's easy, but it's possible, here's comes the controversy, it's hard to FC it, but then why I said it was easy? Well I said it was "Easier in some way" If you don't have the skill enough In the game itself you will have to play a lot's of tries into the map to FC it with DT, for exampel. But when talking about FL, you don't need to have overall skill in the game, you need skill with FL and with that song, that's becouse FL is such an selfish mode, that has his own skill in diference for DT and HR wich they both have simillar skill (Or idk really how to put it in english words but I mean this in spanish "FL es un mod tan egoista que tiene su propio tipo de habilidad para el solo, en cambio de DT y HR que para ser mejores hay que practicar cosas parecidas" or something arround those lines, try to translate if you don't know spanish) It's hard to FC a song with FL, in some way, but in the other way it's easy to do it.

I wasnt acctualy answer to you comment, at least not in the final part, I was explaining mi argument to the peaple that don't fully understan it. Thats why it's separete it, the explation part from the answer part. And I have to thank you a lot Abraker, for all of your questions and complaining (Or idk how to say it in a more kindly way) of mi post! Disscuse with you make me thinking a lot more of the topic.
igorsprite
623 posts
Joined September 2015
igorsprite
in my opinion, FL is for players who can't beat that pro player with DT score, but love the song and want try another method to achieve it, like me or this guy.
Saltssaumure
205 posts
Joined April 2017
Saltssaumure
btw it's spelled "hypocrisy"
Darkan996
22 posts
Joined March 2014
Topic Starter
Darkan996

Saltssaumure wrote:

btw it's spelled "hypocrisy"
thanks
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

Darkan996 wrote:

Stefan wrote:

And by all honesty, I don't think you can provide enough experience to carry the complaint towards Flashlight mod.
The experience that I have with FL it's 0. But, even so, tell me why I need experience with FL when Im talking to change the mulpt of it?
The experience you should bring in such a discussion doesn't essentially require to be a 50k playcount player and that you spend hours over hours with playing said mods but it is the amount of feedback, of numbers, comparisons and researches you have in total. That can happen by other players as well, you brought up one example and.. that's it. And I don't see anyone recalling that problem nor that this has been brought up before to be a critical problem in the leaderboards.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
So like what are you even trying to argue. That FL is memorization/takes no skill? That the score multipliers (which are ancient) are inbalanced because FL is actually easier than HR? Or that PP doesn't rate FL correctly, because HR is getting higher multipliers than FL despite FL being harder?


As for the whole FL not really being a skill thing:

Go play this with FL https://osu.ppy.sh/s/320118 and come back when you're done. It's only a 1:10 minute map, so should be quick to memorize the position of all the notes, and after that you have learned the map and it takes no more skill to FC with FL right?

Or try placing a bunch of different things in front of you on the table, then close your eyes, then try to grab a specific thing. You'll probably move your hand in the general direction of the thing you want to grab, and you might feel out a bit to confirm that you're able to grab it, maybe adjust your hand a bit to the left or right?

The same thing happens when you play FL. It's not just knowing where the notes are; it's also being able to recall all of the notes in succession right after each other before the note has to be hit, and actually being able to execute these motions in the dark based on possibly slightly flawed/inaccurate memory. Remembering a star pattern in the top right corner slightly tilted is one thing; knowing that the 4th note of said star is on osu!pixel 560;18 and move your cursor to that specific point (and not, say, 565;23) is another.
roufou
987 posts
Joined September 2011
roufou
I'm shocked this isn't locked yet
Darkan996
22 posts
Joined March 2014
Topic Starter
Darkan996

CXu wrote:

So like what are you even trying to argue. That FL is memorization/takes no skill? That the score multipliers (which are ancient) are inbalanced because FL is actually easier than HR? Or that PP doesn't rate FL correctly, because HR is getting higher multipliers than FL despite FL being harder?
The argue is this: FL despite having a higher multp than HR gives you less PP than HR. This shouldn't happend becouse it's anti-intuitive to the player, "Why if im playing with a mod wich has higher multp it gives me less PP? wtf" That's what a player should think when he realize that problem. The solutions are a lot, low the multp of FL, rate FL higher than HR and anothers. The problem here it's if you rate FL like you will rate DT (Wich should be if we take in account only multp) the system will broke even more, becouse i could just memorize a 4 star song and have 280pp or more. So my solution will be lower the multp of FL.


CXu wrote:

As for the whole FL not really being a skill thing:

Go play this with FL https://osu.ppy.sh/s/320118 and come back when you're done. It's only a 1:10 minute map, so should be quick to memorize the position of all the notes, and after that you have learned the map and it takes no more skill to FC with FL right?

Or try placing a bunch of different things in front of you on the table, then close your eyes, then try to grab a specific thing. You'll probably move your hand in the general direction of the thing you want to grab, and you might feel out a bit to confirm that you're able to grab it, maybe adjust your hand a bit to the left or right?

The same thing happens when you play FL. It's not just knowing where the notes are; it's also being able to recall all of the notes in succession right after each other before the note has to be hit, and actually being able to execute these motions in the dark based on possibly slightly flawed/inaccurate memory. Remembering a star pattern in the top right corner slightly tilted is one thing; knowing that the 4th note of said star is on osu!pixel 560;18 and move your cursor to that specific point (and not, say, 565;23) is another.

I can't even FC that withouth FL, so maybe in a couple of months. I have said in the post a couple of times that for me FL it's one of the hardest mods, and I have said that it's also an easyer mod than the rest of the others. I wil now copy and paste a comment of my own that explain my argument pretty well: "The argument is base in the fact that you don't necesarry be good at the game of a hole to FC a map with FL, if you can easily FC the song with no mod, or HD, if you tried times enough you will FC with FL. It's easy, but it's possible, here's comes the controversy, it's hard to FC it, but then why I said it was easy? Well I said it was "Easier in some way" If you don't have the skill enough In the game itself you will have to play a lot's of tries into the map to FC it with DT, for example. But when talking about FL, you don't need to have overall skill in the game, you need skill with FL and with that song, that's becouse FL is such an selfish mode, that has his own skill in diference for DT and HR wich they both have simillar skill It's hard to FC a song with FL, in some way, but in the other way it's easy to do it." Even if I play with FL all my life, I never would be able to FC a map with FL in the first try, becouse you don't need skill with FL to FC it you need memorize the map (some maps are easyer than other with FL, don't take the quote literaly) I (a noob 31k player) can beat you (the 39# rank player in the world) in a 1vs1 with the only map that I play with FL(+EZ) if it's you first try on it.

I have said a lot's of time that it's a hard mod, but in another way it's easy to. I explain myself bad a lot of times arround the post, becouse I only said "easy" for being lazy.

Even so I understand that it's not a easy thing play jumps maps with FL, but it's easyer than playing with DT, (the other mod with x0.12 multp) and it's a disscucion if it's easyer or harder than HR. The thing is, if you can FC no title 6.6 star diff, if you trie enough you can fc it with FL, but even if you tried enough times, it will take you more than FL to FC it with HR.

psd: I acctually cannot believe that im talking to the player that I see his replays on "GRANDOREO Can do HDHR 100%acc" all the time lol.



Stefan wrote:

Darkan996 wrote:

And by all honesty, I don't think you can provide enough experience to carry the complaint towards Flashlight mod
The experience that I have with FL it's 0. But, even so, tell me why I need experience with FL when Im talking to change the mulpt of it?
The experience you should bring in such a discussion doesn't essentially require to be a 50k playcount player and that you spend hours over hours with playing said mods but it is the amount of feedback, of numbers, comparisons and researches you have in total. That can happen by other players as well, you brought up one example and.. that's it. And I don't see anyone recalling that problem nor that this has been brought up before to be a critical problem in the leaderboards.
I don't realy understand you, can you trie to explain better? Im not that good in english.

Trapmaniac wrote:

I'm shocked this isn't locked yet
idk why to.


Thanks to all for your comments, Im wating for the answers!!
Last edited by Darkan996 , edited 1 time in total.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

Darkan996 wrote:

I don't realy understand you, can you trie to explain better? Im not that good in english.
Lul bs considering you are having a fine time replying to others. Utter BS when you consider you replied to THIS VERY THING in a previous post which you seem to agreed to here.


Let's get this locked. I'm done
Darkan996
22 posts
Joined March 2014
Topic Starter
Darkan996

abraker wrote:

Darkan996 wrote:

I don't realy understand you, can you trie to explain better? Im not that good in english.
Lul bs considering you are having a fine time replying to others. Utter BS when you consider you replied to THIS VERY THING in a previous post which you seem to agreed to here.


Let's get this locked. I'm done
I miss quote xd, know it's right.
worst fl player
worst fl player

Trapmaniac wrote:

I'm shocked this isn't locked yet
juliancala
51 posts
Joined September 2013
juliancala
Bro stop complaining and play the game lil bi CH y LmaoooaooaooOoOOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOOOOOooOoOOOOooOOoOoOOO
Darkan996
22 posts
Joined March 2014
Topic Starter
Darkan996

juliancala wrote:

Bro stop complaining and play the game lil bi CH y LmaoooaooaooOoOOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOOOOOooOoOOOOooOOoOoOOO
I just trying to make a better game for all of the players.
Tanomoshii Nekojou
503 posts
Joined November 2010
Tanomoshii Nekojou

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

Trapmaniac wrote:

I'm shocked this isn't locked yet
- e - v - b-
184 posts
Joined August 2014
- e - v - b-

Darkan996 wrote:

juliancala wrote:

Bro stop complaining and play the game lil bi CH y LmaoooaooaooOoOOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOOOOOooOoOOOOooOOoOoOOO
I just trying to make a better game for all of the players.
Big brain mode
Lancien
132 posts
Joined February 2014
Lancien

L-a-m-e-y [ B ] wrote:

Trapmaniac wrote:

I'm shocked this isn't locked yet
rg_seo
7 posts
Joined March 2016
rg_seo 
The third grader that tells everyone else that they're shit at X subject, meanwhile, has lowest grade in the class


Darkan996 wrote:

I can't even FC that withouth FL, so maybe in a couple months.

baka pls
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass
I'm not a dedicated FL player, but I kind of get your arguments. But before the explaining my opinion as player about FL, let's mention you the following facts:

I'm clearly sure that initially, those multipliers were like that since 2007's times in which osu! was published. In those times, there was no pp system at all ... ladder-boards were just about the highest possible score you can archive in a map. PP systems were then aplicated later... the very first version of PP had some irregularities like playing a 4 mod [Easy] and doing TOP 1 + SS did end in giving you more pp than playing an insane SS nomod map with just a #800's position.

Now then, in PPv2, they nerfed massively the use of FL and its pp efficiency at making it the least efficient mod for pp goals. 98% FL FC is like a SS HD play in many cases... still, FL has a growing bonus that scales pretty well with combo length which in VERY LONG MAPS is even stronger than HR's bonus. But yea, in none of the cases it's worth the effort for the pp.


Now talking about the FL in overall, to decide which map to FL you have to find a pattern that are extremely comfortable for you, this is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing when picking a map for FL specially if you're not a dedicated player to FL. If you pick right the map, you can do a FC in less than even 30 tries because you only used reaction and memorized really few parts to do such FC. For example I was capable to almost FC in a first try this one then took me not that many tries to SS. I can tell you I can ply this map in multiplayer using FL and doing a 98% acc close FC not because of memorisation, just because of my natural sight read and reaction.

But, PPv2 and Score System are VERY far away each other, each one are like 7 years of difference between their additions and there is no real relation between each other.

Andi if you question me, if someone really likes a lot a map and wants to +350 tries to FL FC / FL SS he's free to do it for PP, after all "FL farming" is the least efficient of all. And yep, FL skills increases the more you use FL not just in the map you memorized. FL skills / memory are both trainable; also it's completely worthless in tournaments same as with EZ mod which is a excelent reason why both mods are not pp efficient.
Buster
942 posts
Joined April 2016
Buster
crying because of complaining about the FL mod and you don't even have a FL score
Darkan996
22 posts
Joined March 2014
Topic Starter
Darkan996
And this is why FL is kinda broken. https://osu.ppy.sh/u/FGsky 850pp with 4000 tries, its seem fair for you guys?
Tanomoshii Nekojou
503 posts
Joined November 2010
Tanomoshii Nekojou

Darkan996 wrote:

And this is why FL is kinda broken. https://osu.ppy.sh/u/FGsky 850pp with 4000 tries, its seem fair for you guys?
loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

Edit: I'm wrong.
Last edited by Tanomoshii Nekojou , edited 1 time in total.
Darkan996
22 posts
Joined March 2014
Topic Starter
Darkan996

Tanomoshii Nekojou wrote:

Darkan996 wrote:

And this is why FL is kinda broken. https://osu.ppy.sh/u/FGsky 850pp with 4000 tries, its seem fair for you guys?
that's not just an FL mod topic. that's also a touchscreen play topic.
He didnt use touchscreen i think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3geGk_JMZk
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