Taiko ScoreV2 Discussion

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Catgirl
i was gonna write a much longer reply but yeah, really everything in here seems unnecessary without some reasoning of why things even needed to be changed at all. "trying to make things similar to other modes" isn't really a valid answer.

i have very mixed feelings on requiring finishers to be hit. from a tournament standpoint, you're losing out on lots of points already if you don't hit them (assuming they're not required), so causing a miss for not hitting them just seems like overkill. even simple stuff like a finisher at the end of a stream could be killer in a tournament with this change.

drumroll and spinner stuff is meh, i don't like breaking combo for missing either of these, but they should not really be an issue. they can break certain kinds of maps though as well, especially if TWC ends up having any gimmick picks with short spinners, you'd have to be really careful selecting maps.

HP system is just... why is this necessary? just because the other modes have it?

i just don't feel like anything introduced here really needed to be changed. i also don't want TWC to be a testing ground for a broken score system so these things really need to be addressed before TWC happens.

EDIT: also the notice being short on what's actually going to be in score v2 and what isn't can possibly change stuff for team selection, so if things are changing back and forth before the tourney starts, it could cause problems for some countries. because of this it might be best to stick with score v1 for this year or set a date to finalize everything and make no more changes to the system, and make that date well before registrations end.
Garpo
The only beneficial thing I've seen from Scorev2 is making spinners worth a flat 300 so Hard Rock SS is equal to a Hidden SS which has been a problem for a long time in tournaments.

Having HP drain sounds like a dumb idea on paper, a lot of maps have large difficulty spikes which would results in players failing in situations they normally wouldn't be.

In a tournament setting like TWC, I see if you don't hit finishers properly it counts as a miss in a positive way. There won't be loved mapped like Looming Shadow or other obscure loved/Unranked maps. although maps like Da x10 have been. Counting it as a miss is a bit harsh but I don't know how harsh a miss punishes you in scorev2.

Drum rolls being forced to 1/4 and counting as a 300/miss is plain stupid. Sure, you might implement a way to change the tick rate but on older fast maps that may be used could cause some issues with it being extremely difficult to hit all of the ticks. Another issues is that if you slightly miss time the head of it and don't realize it in time, you could be tick locking yourself out by hitting between ticks and it being almost impossible to get back into it.

Spinners counting as a miss if not completed shouldn't be an issue during TWC. There is a very little chance that there will be maps with ninja ones, it is completely your fault if you don't complete it and are punished accordingly.

What I see is that, Scorev2 is very punishing to players who don't play perfectly every time. From finishers counting as misses to the 1 Million score cap.
Loctav

n1doking wrote:

what was wrong with the old scoring system

why do we need a new one to replace a system that was perfectly fine

i don't understand the reasoning behind score v2 at all
the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)

Garpo wrote:

The only beneficial thing I've seen from Scorev2 is making spinners worth a flat 300 so Hard Rock SS is equal to a Hidden SS which has been a problem for a long time in tournaments.

Having HP drain sounds like a dumb idea on paper, a lot of maps have large difficulty spikes which would results in players failing in situations they normally wouldn't be.

the default taiko HP system doesnt make inherent sense, though. although it being overtuned (as said), I don't mind this kind of HP at all. it works for mania, though works for taiko, too.

In a tournament setting like TWC, I see if you don't hit finishers properly it counts as a miss in a positive way. There won't be loved mapped like Looming Shadow or other obscure loved/Unranked maps. although maps like Da x10 have been. Counting it as a miss is a bit harsh but I don't know how harsh a miss punishes you in scorev2.

yeah well, if people wouldn't skin their finisher objects to normal objects and simply ignore a crucial mechanic on beatmaps that are designed in a way that they are way more tricky with playing them but absolutely trivial without (see looming shadows or no money down), this wouldnt need to be a thing. but finishers are a gameplay mechanic - and with old scores, they are entirely optional to do. ignoring mechanics that have been put with full intention to be ignored at all shouldn't be a thing. Hitting finishers should be easier now - or at least, it does actually show you hitting them, as the leniency didn't change (30ms right now I think?)

Drum rolls being forced to 1/4 and counting as a 300/miss is plain stupid. Sure, you might implement a way to change the tick rate but on older fast maps that may be used could cause some issues with it being extremely difficult to hit all of the ticks. Another issues is that if you slightly miss time the head of it and don't realize it in time, you could be tick locking yourself out by hitting between ticks and it being almost impossible to get back into it.

drum rolls being 1/2 on high BPM doesnt make sense either. drum rolls turning to 1/8 on DT neither. Having them on 1/4 is the most proper way to handle this (and making them 1/3 if tickrate is 3, which is hopefully to come, I already brought that up). Ticks are indeed difficult to hit because of some weird note locking, however, you dont have to hit all ticks. a completion is reached with hitting 30% of the slider's ticks. only if you hit less than 30%, you gain a miss. although we need to look into this note locking, I think it also affects spinners.

Spinners counting as a miss if not completed shouldn't be an issue during TWC. There is a very little chance that there will be maps with ninja ones, it is completely your fault if you don't complete it and are punished accordingly.

even with, imo crying about ninja spinners is really just crying, because completing them isnt even remotely hard and ignoring them should be as punished as finishers (same reason)

What I see is that, Scorev2 is very punishing to players who don't play perfectly every time. From finishers counting as misses to the 1 Million score cap.
that's the idea. there is the same accuracy/combo weighting as in mania right now (iirc? don't quote me here). Taiko relies less on combo and tiering score increase now - and taiko always punished those who don't play perfectly every time, so this isn't really a concern
All in all, I think doing this is the step into the right direction, HP drain is harsh and can't behave like in osu!standard (dunno if it considers NCs, if yes, it shouldn't), OD ratings stayed the same and I think we didn't really talk or look into mods (HD, HR, DT, HDHR) yet, so you shouldn't judge that just yet, however preliminary suggestions always work out.


The argument wheter we need this or not is uuuh, let's say that Taiko is probably the most lenient game mode in all of its aspect but hit accuracy (has the harshest hit windows of all game modes), however Taiko allows you to ignore pretty much over the half of its mechanics and just faceroll through all the normal notes. ScoreV2 gives the other half of the mechanics a way higher weightening, changes how maps play and reduce the cheesing through game mechanics (here again: SKINS) and make the maps and its elements be played the way they are supposed to be played.
Catgirl
i don't think anyone who would be playing in a world cup or tournament setting, knowing that finishers need to be hit for higher score, would be using a skin that ignores them. they'd already be screwing themselves over by doing that.
Loctav
For maps that make use of finishers like looming shadows do, people rather skin away the finishers than trying to get the extra score, because the odds of missing is way too high.
Catgirl

Loctav wrote:

For maps that make use of finishers like looming shadows do, people rather skin away the finishers than trying to get the extra score, because the odds of missing is way too high.
i can see that for difficult sections because i do struggle reading some finisher spam sections, but still, what if there were 100 other finishers in the map that were easy to read? you'd be missing out on the easy score bonus for those 100 notes, which essentially is the same as missing in the tricky part and not getting your combo back for 100 notes.

i just don't think anyone who goes for score in a tournament setting like this would be using a no finisher skin. only really targeting this because it's the only argument you really brought forth.
Savoiyare
That 1000000 max score would be a pretty fun mod
however i think it would be a bad idea to be the main score system

EDIT : ok i thought mandatory big notes and survival hp was a glitch back then so eeeeee please do not do that or don't call this game a TnT simulator anymore

but like i said if it's only a mod for some tournaments then it would be pretty cool, but not as the main score system because of the fact that (almost) all of the maps have be created for the current score system and loooooooot of stuff would be unplayable with this system
animexamera
I will probably quit if this gets though

20% of the unranked maps will be unplayable because of the finisher rule (katacheh maps for example)

the finisher rule is also really harsh to 2 finger players, all the more with the new ranking criteria

2 finger players cant hit a finisher on a stream
Loctav

animexamera wrote:

I will probably quit if this gets though

20% of the unranked maps will be unplayable because of the finisher rule (katacheh maps for example)

the finisher rule is also really harsh to 2 finger players, all the more with the new ranking criteria

2 finger players cant hit a finisher on a stream
I REALLY wonder how mania people do that witchcraft. also who cares about unranked maps?

Savoiyare wrote:

That 1000000 max score would be a pretty fun mod
however i think it would be a bad idea to be the main score system
care to elaborate why?

Catgirl wrote:

Loctav wrote:

For maps that make use of finishers like looming shadows do, people rather skin away the finishers than trying to get the extra score, because the odds of missing is way too high.
i can see that for difficult sections because i do struggle reading some finisher spam sections, but still, what if there were 100 other finishers in the map that were easy to read? you'd be missing out on the easy score bonus for those 100 notes, which essentially is the same as missing in the tricky part and not getting your combo back for 100 notes.

i just don't think anyone who goes for score in a tournament setting like this would be using a no finisher skin. only really targeting this because it's the only argument you really brought forth.
but they do use no finisher skins already. this is all speculation. the sheer option to cheese through this game mechanic shouldnt be a thing in the first place. sure some maps are not designed to work with that change, but I think none of these are ranked.
Fuel

Loctav wrote:

I REALLY wonder how mania people do that witchcraft.
Why should that factor into a scoring system for taiko?

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?
You use looming shadow as an argument for finishers but it's not like that's ranked lol.
agu
please don't make drumrolls and spinners more than what they are: "useless" bonus points.


I'd argue the same for finishers but I don't even want to argue about this.
Catgirl

Invective wrote:

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?
You use looming shadow as an argument for finishers but it's not like that's ranked lol.
better be only ranked taiko maps in TWC this year, there are plenty of them so it shouldn't be a problem right? since unranked maps are unimportant
Nofool

Loctav wrote:

the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)
Thats literally the point of a BONUS, finishers/sliders/spinners are supposed to be a score bonus, not an unavoidable part of the map lol. Like wth is the point of maximizing a score in a mode with bonus elements........

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?
Dumbest shit i've seen, how far are you from reality lol. You know they recently added a loved section that actually allows unranked maps to get a scoreboard??

Why are you even answering on that thread tho, you obviously don't know shit about the gamemode.
frukoyurdakul
After discussions made on #taiko channel I have come to write my opinions about this scoreV2 system.

About these finisher hits: That's unneccessary. This forces to play taiko with 4 fingers even there are so many index finger players. This is important because of the finishers after 1/4 or 1/6 streams (which are seen from convert maps) will be unneccesarily hard to hit for 2 finger players. Score change is fair, but having a miss on a single hit is not.

Drum rolls: Not unlogical, but have some mistakes in my opinion. Because this makes sliders harder than streams which can be hit with 100 points. If you miss the first tick on this slider, it will be very hard to hit them right again because the ticks are more difficult to hit than the original notes.

Spinners: Bye bye loved maps.

Health: Not fair. Because if you miss in a stream, (for me anyway, maybe I'm doing it wrong) it's very hard to recover in a stream without a break about 10 or 15ms to hit another note, which causes unconsistency unneccesarily. For example: In a 200 BPM song, if it has +-70ms (which is a 140ms gap, OD 6.5), you will miss every note in a 1/4 stream because the song will have 75 ms gap between these 2 notes (think of it as 1 note and it will be 37.5 ms) and you miss it automatically. Mania does not have it hence it has this HP system. Taiko maps are a note in a flat line and doesn't work as mania as. So Taiko can't have this system in my opinion.
BrokenArrow

Nofool wrote:

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?
Dumbest shit i've seen, how far are you from reality lol. You know they recently added a loved section that actually allows unranked maps to get a scoreboard??

Why are you even answering on that thread tho, you obviously don't know shit about the gamemode.
The score system shouldn't be balanced around unrankable maps, ever. That's just retarded.
guro

Loctav wrote:

the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)
You see, drumrolls and spinners can be ignored in the original game aswell, although the changes to those objects are mostly reasonable.
However, the planned change to finisher notes is just a poor decision. Even if you hit the finisher note with one key instead of two, you essentially still hit it. Gaining less score from that is a completely fair and reasonable punishment, punishing that with a miss is taking things a bit too far. As frukoyurdakul said, hitting finisher notes at the end of a 1/4 stream or pattern will be just a pain to hit. Don't even start with justifying it with jacks in mania. Taiko isn't mania. Comparing those two modes with eachother is bound to be stupid.

It's understandable you want osu!taiko to be a more unique game, but at this point you are taking the original game's mechanics and throw in a unnecessary and tedious twist for the sake of being different.

Edit: Also agreeing with Nofool about the loved section. Why adding it if you plan on ruining it 3 months later?
XK2238

in which other than the 1 million max score, the currently listed changes are:
>has starting HP like all other game modes
>sliders (which are drumrolls) and spinners have the same behaviors like those in all other game modes -- except CTB in regards of spinners
>drumrolls and big notes, elements whose purposes are to reward bonus points for more skilled players, become mandatory in reaching the max score

...because it just isn't bearable to let this mode be of enough uniqueness ('uniquity'?) compared to the other modes and it has to be some sort of 'standardized' to the osu! environment, to the other game modes. Taiko that ISN'T Taiko? Might as well ditch the "Taiko" in "osu!Taiko" and rename it to something else.

this new system would definitely fuck up Taiko's current foundations (including but not limited to the Loved maps section) if it ever becomes final, but if you guys want to implement it so very badly, I'd say keep it within official tournaments and ONLY official tournaments, NOT anywhere else. Even if it does get implemented, mappool selection in said tournaments must be WAY MORE stricter and careful in order to comply with the changes that this system brings, although that would 'most probably' (if not 'certainly') need a heck lot of miracles to happen.

---------------------

if anything, I think some other things need to be addressed before issuing any kind of new system in the gameplay, such as the note-locking problem and the HP gain/loss rate correlation (i.e. the difference in marathon maps VS in regular-length maps).
Endaris
Just from a watching perspective I really think the HP-system of Taiko should stay as it is.
Having teams or players fail due to single spikes during a map or at the end is not desirable, be it from a watching or from a playing perspective.
Since Taiko is the only tapping-oriented gamemode where you can press wrong buttons in a way that throws you out of the mapflow the current way of dealing with HP makes absolute sense as you won't be instantly killed from the sort of common stream of misses and instead evaluated over the course of the whole map.

Also while I agree with the reasons to make finishers an actual part of the gameplay I'm not sure if a miss is the appropriate punishment - maybe a 100 instead?
Even though I'm too bad at Taiko to follow the actual gameplay on screen I always found Taiko tournaments be fairly exciting to watch and part of the reason for that was how the current score system is suited to keep things close.

Well whatever.
No feedback was given for the standard v2 discussion thread so I'm pretty sure in spite of the "discussion thread" smoogi won't read most posts and not reply at all once again.
Kind of futile to post then I suppose.
-Valony-
I'm strongly against Taiko ScoreV2, but why ?

First of all : It's been a while that Drum rolls and Spinners are bonus, and big notes were optionals. This soft system leads to an emergence of a lot of various and uniques playstyle. To this point, I believe there is not a major playstyle proper to taiko, but a lot of various playstyle which all have their strengths and their weakness.

If the bonus aren't referenced as bonus anymore, all thoses playstyle and players will lose the thing that makes them uniques and funny to play, in benefit to a unique mandatory, generic and boring playstyle, that will lead to an overall (big) loss for the game.

Secondary : I'm even more against the new HP system, all of the taiko map since now were designed for the current HP system. I believe that most of the rankeds map can easily switch on the ScoreV2 HP System, but lot of unranked map has been made for fun, challenge, and troll and does not fit the ScoreV2 HP System.

But why am I talking about unranked map since no one cares ?

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?
Here you can see how many ranked map there aproximatly are for some difficulties.
http://puu.sh/tE0g7/0ef73afbec.png

At high stars, there is few ranked map that I (and i'm sure that a lot of others players too) need to play unranked map to have some fresh/original/unpopular/funny content. For these unranked map, most of them doesn't fit the ScoreV2 because they weren't created for it. Moreover, I think you know what i am talking about, since for at least 2 year there has been some unranked beatmap for the TWC.

Cordially,
Electrano.
frukoyurdakul

Endaris wrote:

Well whatever.
No feedback was given for the standard v2 discussion thread so I'm pretty sure in spite of the "discussion thread" smoogi won't read most posts and not reply at all once again.
Kind of futile to post then I suppose.
This is exactly going to happen. I am certain that players' comments about that will be ignored no matter what.
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