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osu!catch ScoreV2 Discussion

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Krah
osu! Alumni
1,023 posts
Joined March 2012
Krah

-Kurisu- wrote:

This is exactly what I was thinking, you can't use both DT and HR in the same pool so there is no reason to adjust those values.
Quite true but scoring should be directly valid in all possible tournaments so having DT and HR at the same time could be a thing cuz idk reasons or troll pool or reasons or just a dt pool where hr could be allowed in freemode. Not saying that it will happen in the cwc but it could happen in another random tournament that would like to use the v2 scoring.
I still think that dt should increase with ar and hd decrease and not just trying to randomly sort them and thinking there is only hard maps and the cwc with its ar8+ meta. Maybe something like :
DT : 1.06+(0.5*AR)
HD : 1.08-(0.5*AR)
With the AR being the one without any mods to avoid some useless complications.



Hedgeturtle wrote:

1. Make HD give 0.00x on non-HD maps on the tournament. Probably the easiest way would be to add Tournament HD (naming sense=0) as the second HD pick (just as NC is 2nd DT), THD gives 0.00x.
I actually asked for that the day the 2015 cwc rules were released and it wasn't possible at this time to simply calculate it. Hope it could be a thing now. (btw THD should give 1.00* not 0.00*)
Jasmine
103 posts
Joined April 2014
Jasmine

PakaChan wrote:

DT 1.14x
FL 1.1x
HR 1.06x
HD 1.03x

DT > FLHD > FL > HRHD >HR > HD
I don't think it should be any other way as long as the multipliers are static and don't care about CS and AR. Maybe 1.12 DT if you want FLHD > DT
i'm not agree with you for DT=FL+HD, i thinks FLHD is a LOT more harder than DT only

I thinks score multipliers need to care about CS and AR because for example HD on low AR (like AR6); AR6 HD is really more harder than AR6 HR/DT
(Don't forget EZ+HD is ONLY 0.53x)

And about EZ multipliers i thinks 1.00x is good because the map is not more easy, ofc AR and the CS is reduce with EZ but the most of time it's a lot MORE harder than no mods. ( EZ+DT 0.53x hahaha )
Laharl
1,394 posts
Joined January 2011
Laharl

Fantasy wrote:

give easy mod 1.06
Oh, come on.
iiyo
522 posts
Joined March 2013
iiyo

Laharl wrote:

Oh, come on.
sorry for the spook
Laharl
1,394 posts
Joined January 2011
Laharl

Fantasy wrote:

Laharl wrote:

Oh, come on.
sorry for the spook
I hope so. Almost had a heart attack when I read EZ > NM when it defies all sorts of logic.
iiyo
522 posts
Joined March 2013
iiyo
Heard from a little birdie that these changes will be on tournaments only and not on the actual client, if that's the case then CTB truly is dead because HR > DT makes literally no sense half of the people who are deadlocked into HR scores cannot DT the overdoses they HR'd, which makes a lot of people lose motivation and not really care to play.
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
ScoreV2 is apparently wanted to be on public someday but that also requires wiping every score set ever so there's reasons why it's not going in anytime soon.
I'm pretty sure it wouldn't even be as simple as just recalculating every play because it just isn't that simple especially on any scores which have broken replays or are not top 250, also stop saying CTB is dead it's a stupid meme and it's getting old
DeletedUser_500696
DeletedUser_500696
dt still gives way more pp than hr lol. It's obvious that dt is more difficult than hr, that's part of the reason why less people can dt overdoses. Fl is too but people don't really do that on ar9+ with the exception of a few, because people know it's difficult af. I do think more people including me would like to be rewarded for playing those mods by seeing their hard earned scores at the top of the scoreboard. But ctb definitely isn't dead just because those scores aren't on the scoreboard, there are people out there that train dt and fl. Also the important thing isn't whether it'll be easy to make the change or not, leave it to the underestimated coders. It's how much the community wants to see the change.

tl;dr I agree with parts of fantasy and zak's logic and disagree with other parts.

Also @Krah ty for clarifying that, I like both of those ideas. Ar needs to be taken into account for dt and hd ye, i think fl too. Hr is fine without any adjustment imo
Allrounder
4 posts
Joined April 2014
Allrounder
FL = 1.15x
DT = 1.12x
HR = 1.08x
HD = 1.05x

That's how I would do it. Cause you need to know the whole map for FL | DT'ing a 4* map for example is harder than HR'ing it | HR'ing is harder than HD'ing.
But the main point is, that DT should have a higher multiplier than HR, because otherwise you'll have problems if you HR'd a lot of maps and later you are able to DT these maps.

For example: You SS'd a 4* map with HDHR. One year later or something you are a better player and you are theoretically able to DT this map. If you SS it with HDDT you won't be able to beat your current score even though it's harder (in most cases) and you would gain more pp. (Or at least create something, which always gives you the highest pp out of your scores, doesn't matter if you beat your current score or not)


Ofc that's just my opinion. I can agree if somebody says HD is harder than HR for example, but still DT should have a higher multiplier than HR just to "balance" the pp system.
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak

Allrounder wrote:

Ofc that's just my opinion. I can agree if somebody says HD is harder than HR for example, but still DT should have a higher multiplier than HR just to "balance" the pp system.
The first post of the thread says not to discuss pp here as ScoreV2 is strictly for CWC.

Also a thought that just came to me is that I don't really see much need to weigh DT vs HR for a tournament as you're never able to see DT vs HR in a tournament setting, even in a free mod pool, it's impossible to have DT on unless it's on for everyone, so there's no need to worry about HR giving more score.
LegoTonix
13 posts
Joined June 2014
LegoTonix
FL = 1.14x
DT AR<8 = 1.08x DT AR>9 = 1.12x
HR = 1.10x
HD = 1.03x AR>9 1.08x AR<7

I think DT worth more HR is bad on easy maps <2.7* or under AR 8.5
1 because if you check scoreboreder on AR 7-8 maps 2 * if you check you will see in most case 15 DTHD score, and 2-3 HRHD score, on maps under 2.7* HR is ways harder DT isn't so hard on this maps
2 CS 5+ is very very hard in HR if you look CS 5+ AR 7-8 have only few score in HR or even no score at all i see a lot maps in CS 5+ have 0 score in HR
and for CS 6-7 is HR is almost impossble unless be a god like exgon or other pro player
3 this will broken score for AR 7-8 maps this will be spam DTHD spins to win for get #1 ranking and HRHD will worthless and get bad rank, even if is way harder

but i'm not saying DT is easier than HR i think DT is much way harder in AR 9+ maps
if you look scoreboard in AR 9 maps you will see a lot more HRHD than DT or DTHD even on 0 DT on almost AR 9 maps so yeah DT worth more than HR on AR 9 is a good idea but for CS5/AR8 maps HR is ways harder often because pixel jump and convert maps.

EDIT: I read this is only for CWC so yeah, scoreV1 is fine for CWC because i dont think will have game like DT vs HR, maybe just update HD to x1,03
I don't think FL will be playable at CWC. also for HRDTFL no one will chose that unless on very easy maps under AR 8 because 1 FL is very easy to miss in frist try so unplayable for cwc and DT will are not playable for AR 9 at frist try i think 99 % player will chose nomod and FC instead DT do 15 miss and HR is playable but is harder than nomod but eaiser than DT i dont think will have DT vs HR in AR 9 in cwc
Digitalfear117
42 posts
Joined July 2015
Digitalfear117

LegoTonix wrote:

I think DT worth more HR is bad on easy maps <2.7* or under AR 8.5
1 because if you check scoreboreder on AR 7-8 maps 2 * if you check you will see in most case 15 DTHD score, and 2-3 HRHD score, on maps under 2.7* HR is ways harder DT isn't so hard on this maps
2 CS 5+ is very very hard in HR if you look CS 5+ AR 7-8 have only few score in HR or even no score at all i see a lot maps in CS 5+ have 0 score in HR
and for CS 6-7 is HR is almost impossble unless be a god like exgon or other pro player
3 this will broken score for AR 7-8 maps this will be spam DTHD spins to win for get #1 ranking and HRHD will worthless and get bad rank, even if is way harder
I personally feel like this won't actually solve the problem of what is harder, this is just a blanket for the problem, because there are plenty of difficult AR8 DT maps, but I do agree DT is not always more difficult than HR, and you also mention this. I (still) think it should be determined by the star difficulty after the mods are applied

So for example, lets say a map is 2 stars.

You apply HR and it increases to 2.54 stars
You apply DT and it increases to 2.86 stars

DT should in this case be given a higher score multiplier than HR, but if HR were to increase the star rating more it should have the higher multiplier.

Less plays with certain mods doesn't necessarily make a map harder, what if less people just bothered to FC it with that mod combination? I see where your coming with that, but for example take this map here, https://osu.ppy.sh/s/130504 in standard this is considered an easy DT map, with many DT fc's, but there is only one HDHR score even submitted, that doesn't mean its harder with HR, but just that no one wanted to do it with those mods. I am aware standard and CtB are completely different, but its just an example (and i couldn't think of a CtB map off the top of my head lol)

Zak wrote:

The first post of the thread says not to discuss pp here as ScoreV2 is strictly for CWC.
I personally interpreted this being meant in regards to suggestions for changes in the pp system, I could be wrong (and if i am i will edit this post) but just talking about the system as it is should be allowed.

Zak wrote:

Also a thought that just came to me is that I don't really see much need to weigh DT vs HR for a tournament as you're never able to see DT vs HR in a tournament setting, even in a free mod pool, it's impossible to have DT on unless it's on for everyone, so there's no need to worry about HR giving more score.
True... but I think they eventually want to make scorev2 roll out to more than just tournaments, so I think we should come up with a score system that will be better for both.
2zz
334 posts
Joined April 2016
2zz
If look objectively, the maps with DT is no more difficult than nomod-maps. Its are simply 1.5 times faster, nothing more. The patterns remain the same, their location too. Yes, to do anything half faster is very difficult, if you can't even on normal speed. But in general, DT is not "hard" mod. This is a "fast" mod. However, HR is "difficult" mode, cause the position of the patterns making them little bit harder to pass. But the speed of the taps remains the same. Yes, AR is increasing, but so what? If change AR you'll see that the only thing that has changed is the distance between the notes. If you do the same with DT nothing will change because the speed of taps on the notes will remain accelerated in 1,5 times, isn't it?

Replacing of the multiplier from the DT to HR and back on different difficulties to balance would be technically difficult, and it is not necessary for the CWC so that would be to equate it.

FL - 1.12
HR - 1.12
DT - 1.12
HD - 1.04
Last edited by 2zz , edited 3 times in total.
PakaChan
164 posts
Joined August 2013
PakaChan
Holy shit the last guy is just too much.
So many people that have no idea what they're talking about...
RAMPAGE88
128 posts
Joined August 2010
RAMPAGE88
Yeah too much but it's funny.
Also, HR doesn't change location so much in CtB maps tbh, It affects convert maps more and most of the time old converts (old mapping)
I didn't say that HR is easy but keep in mind that HR sometimes also changes pixel jump to hyper and make some jumps (pattern) easier to catch.
So sometimes it helps in some patterns but never for DT (I think)
Well It's just an opinion.
iiyo
522 posts
Joined March 2013
iiyo

2zz wrote:

FL - 1.12
HR - 1.12
DT - 1.12
HD - 1.04

i hope ur joking
rostld
osu!catch Champion
220 posts
Joined May 2014
rostld
how about everything 1.1
Secre
osu!catch Champion / Nomination Assessment Team
402 posts
Joined January 2013
Secre

Jimmy Rustler wrote:

how about everything 1.1
no 1.0
2zz
334 posts
Joined April 2016
2zz
Here was very quiet. I decided to slightly shake it lol
xi-False
133 posts
Joined March 2014
xi-False
No-mod should give +0.224 this may sound crazy but,
my elaborate decision making on these numbers is explained down below in the box
I hope everyone can keep an opened mind and accept these changes for what they should be.

uaaaaaaa!

cause why not.....
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
Can you not
Smudge
49 posts
Joined June 2014
Smudge
delete scorev2
iiyo
522 posts
Joined March 2013
iiyo

Smudge wrote:

delete scorev2
smudgeee roooooooooooocksss dude
Colin
osu!catch Champion
306 posts
Joined January 2015
Colin
i actually like score v2 :d
o x
1,528 posts
Joined May 2015
o x
Since the scorev2 mod was implemented I guess I'll put my input into this thread.

I like how droplets are 10% each instead of having it 10pts each. HR has always been higher than DT in terms of multiplier but I think that DT should be higher than HR or at least not have HR giving so much of a multiplier, I think the most impressive plays should be first on the leaderboards and a lot of people think that DT should be higher than HR and I have to agree. A DT score is a lot more impressive than a HR score IMO. People can say that HR is more impressive on higher CS maps, but those are really rare as it is, the base CS is 4 which is seen so common that HR plays are almost expected on them (I'm not talking about ET maps don't attack me.)
Take Tsuki ni Murakumo Hana ni Kaze (PV ver.) for example, Motion is sitting with the only HDDT play ever and it is far more impressive than the HDHR plays that are set on the map, I don't see why the play is placed so far down when it is a better play.

The one concern I have about the bananas is at what point do droplets become more valuable than bananas? As it stands a good spinner is recognised as the better score on lower level maps as well as shorter maps. Also right now it seems that a good spinner is more impressive than a good acc in the community standards, I am just wondering because I like having spinners outweigh droplets.

smoogipooo wrote:

[*] The percentage worth of tiny slider ticks is scaled by the ratio of tiny ticks to all other objects in the map.
Okay what? so the percentage worth of slider droplets is scaled by the ratio of slider ticks? Or the number of droplets?

Can't tell which one you mean since you keep saying tiny slider ticks and tiny ticks...
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
With the HR/DT debate you also have to take note that on lower end maps (almost all maps at AR8.5 and below) DT is the easier choice, which is the reason why it was like that long ago, it's a unique thing that only happens here and it's not as simple as just flipping the multipliers since then you have messed up leaderboards on everything that isn't hard.
o x
1,528 posts
Joined May 2015
o x
I don't see that as a bad thing right now. There will always be an easier mod than the other, currently the maps I see mostly are AR 9+ which with DT can make it harder than HR, but I don't think the reason DT is hard is because of the AR so I don't like comparing it like that.
One of the things that make DT difficult is increasing the BPM, and with DT you have to be very precise with your movements especially when you are given half the time to complete complex patterns, where HR seems to be quite a lot more lenient with the movements. It seems like the typical maps that are getting ranked right now are CS:4 AR:9 BPM:170~
With HR it would only affect AR which would stick it ar AR10 and CS would be 5.2 I would find this a lot easier to pass than a DT map that makes the AR10.3~ and 255bpm.

Of course ctb is completely subjective and people that are really good at fast movements will find DT easier but find high CS harder and be bad at HR.

Logically the best plays should in turn be the top play on your profile correct? Excluding EZ mod. Thinking like this means DT should be at the top of the leaderboards right? I think it's a bit off that DT can be seen as the top play ever but not even make it into the top 50 on the map because HDHR scores give more score. I just think that it should be the opposite is all.
I'm not saying to switch HR and DT multipliers completely I just think DT should be higher than HR.
PakaChan
164 posts
Joined August 2013
PakaChan
please keep this crap in your shitty tournament and never touch the actual score system with it
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
You would still need a way to accurately show what is/isn't easier per map and while it is a shame that DT isn't higher on Rain+ maps the plays are certainly not overlooked, and if you did flip them there would be more leaderboards that are messed up than there are ones that are fixed, in Standard and Taiko this isn't a discussion at all since DT is always harder than HR unless it's maybe some special gimmick map but that doesn't really count where as here a majority of maps are objectively harder to do with HR as opposed to DT due to the sheer amount of lower end maps. So unless some adjustment could be made that switches the multiplier on higher end maps that would 100% be harder with DT (only high up maps to avoid middle ground maps that would spark a debate about which is harder) I would much rather keep our current multipliers.

Also if Scorev2 ever does become the standard then we would need to adjust current multipliers anyway but I don't think there will ever be enough support from the community for it to change over, I like it for tournaments but I'd also really hate to see it replace our current scoring system.
o x
1,528 posts
Joined May 2015
o x
I don't know how to fix the DT HR problem, even if you make it multiply by BPM it would still make easier maps messed up. If there's a way that lower end maps wouldn't be affected by this than I would love that but I don't really have any suggestions, I don't think they can do it by star rating either. Maybe AR? But even then it might be easy. I don't mind the multipliers as they are now but I would just like to see DT higher but I know it'll cause quite a bit of controversy with the lower end maps so maybe it's best just sticking with what we have.

Even if we don't like score v2 I'm sure it will still get pushed through, I don't think they will change much seeing as there aren't very many posts here at all and it's been 5 months. Half the posts are people saying random stuff and not contributing to the topic at all. CTB doesn't have many people that are willing to put out their opinions on stuff like this, most just complain on social media about the changes but never contribute to changing it at all. That's the sad truth about CTB right now.
Another thing is if you scroll through the posts on this page you will notice that the majority think DT should be scored higher, and that's pretty much the only thing people have been saying in this thread, so they will assume it's the only thing we don't like and that we like everything else. I like how they are weighting droplets higher because especially on shorter maps you will see people purposely dodging droplets and still getting a top 10 score because of the spin they accomplish.
He Ang CTB
553 posts
Joined March 2013
He Ang CTB

Zak wrote:

So unless some adjustment could be made that switches the multiplier on higher end maps that would 100% be harder with DT (only high up maps to avoid middle ground maps that would spark a debate about which is harder) I would much rather keep our current multipliers.
^ Sums up very well.

Also the main reason why players wanted a new system is so that players can overwrite HDHR scores with DT, but it has already been made possible by letting players submit more than 1 record despite of score (look at Jimmy Rustler's profile on Big Black EZ FL).
o x
1,528 posts
Joined May 2015
o x

He Ang Erika wrote:

Also the main reason why players wanted a new system is so that players can overwrite HDHR scores with DT, but it has already been made possible by letting players submit more than 1 record despite of score (look at Jimmy Rustler's profile on Big Black EZ FL).
I am more talking about leaderboards and the way things are scored not submitting multiple scores.
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
Yeah and you can either have 5% of the leaderboards broken as they are now or flip things and have 95% of them being broken.
mummie
22 posts
Joined April 2014
mummie
>90% of the score comes from combo, the <10% comes from tiny slider ticks.
does this mean that the droplets worth more in a short map over the score of a higher map ?
and what is the flat droplet score where it starts @ still the same as now or is there any change as you stated with the bananas its a big increase of point from 100 to 350
lineqtxz
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
134 posts
Joined July 2011
lineqtxz
why not use scorev1 for cwc?(?)
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
Because ScoreV2 is more interesting
He Ang CTB
553 posts
Joined March 2013
He Ang CTB

lineqtxz wrote:

why not use scorev1 for cwc?(?)

Zak wrote:

Because ScoreV2 is more interesting
To prevent the two of you from solo carrying the team :D
CelegaS
484 posts
Joined April 2012
CelegaS
scoreV2 from cwc 2016 was just scoreV1 with scalled score, different weight of bananas and droplets.
DeletedUser_1417202
DeletedUser_1417202
hmm insane~extra level DT>HR
hard level HR>DT.. confused
Crystallize
42 posts
Joined October 2014
Crystallize
Could you add score v2 to fallback aswell. CWC is near and it might influence players' performance due to lack of good computer.
F D Flourite
811 posts
Joined March 2013
F D Flourite
I cannot see the current CTB ScoreV2 formula, is there any reference or link?

Just watching CWC right now. In the "first" match HK vs JP group stage match, the last game was a platter HR. Alice Cartelet (a HK player) had missed for 2 times at different timing spots, which means that he just cut the full combo 396 into 3 pieces. He/she only got 166 for the highest combo during that game, but he still got 930k+ score (HR full score is around 1120k, I suppose). It sounds weird honestly.

Like, if someone misses in the middle of the music, he could only get about half of the full score in the past ScoreV2. It indeed sounds too tragic. But in the current version, the combo thing just seem to matter quite little, then what's emphasized now? I just don't really like the current ScoreV2 system tbh.

Hope to hear from the development group about the current scoring formula so that more players can get what's emphasized in the current ScoreV2 system.

EDIT: A new evidence of current ScoreV2 system:


Their scores got too little difference imo. :|
Besides, if you look at the performance between alienflybot and Galaxi, you will find something more weird.

Don't see how this system is gonna work, sorry.
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
Most players in the world cup were made aware of the changes made to ScoreV2 the day they were added, and honestly almost no one complained. This system makes misses much more forgiving but you have to admit still that every miss definitely hurts your score, though missing all at the same spot will certainly hurt a lot less. Most people don't like it just because the scores are still close to the max they can get, but honestly that's not a big issue since it's the same for everyone and the team that plays better will still win.
F D Flourite
811 posts
Joined March 2013
F D Flourite

Zak wrote:

but honestly that's not a big issue since it's the same for everyone and the team that plays better will still win.
It's hard to define which team "plays better" in the current ScoreV2. In the past systems points are differentiated highly so you can really tell it with a certain reason, regardless of how you like or hate that reason. But now the difference is just like "wut"?

You may look at the score screenshot that I posted, afb missed more and got fewer combo than Galaxi (the full combo is 1092, so undoubtedly 510cb is highly fewer than 815cb for sure), but he still got higher score. Imo it is just for no reason.

So the soul of this system is, spin to win and pray to the god for less point punishment? XD just kidding

Anyway, I've reported such an issue and hope that the development team can take this case into consideration.
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
Looking at the screenshot tells me that Mizzoking likely had his misses spread throughout the map, while afb probably missed all at once or in the same general section of the song, it's actually better having the scores be closer as it's not focusing purely on who gets the biggest combo and more so on who misses less, I played with ScoreV2 quite a bit last year and a decent amount so far after the changes, and I think it's much better this way. Also there is no way the staff will change the scoring formula now that the tournament has started unless some really bad flaw is found.
F D Flourite
811 posts
Joined March 2013
F D Flourite

Zak wrote:

Also there is no way the staff will change the scoring formula now that the tournament has started unless some really bad flaw is found.
That's mostly the thing I guess :P

Imo the most problem that this system causes is combo becomes highly irrelevant to the score, the same as a single miss in some maps. As a result, players have to find whether giving up some notes to catch bananas would be a better option for getting a higher score (and it's the truth in some maps), which I think is highly off the intention of this scoring system and the game itself.
CelegaS
484 posts
Joined April 2012
CelegaS
Current scoreV2 is similar to mania's score, in 50 combo you reached like 99% value of a fruit.
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak

F D Flourite wrote:

Zak wrote:

Also there is no way the staff will change the scoring formula now that the tournament has started unless some really bad flaw is found.
That's mostly the thing I guess :P

Imo the most problem that this system causes is combo becomes highly irrelevant to the score, the same as a single miss in some maps. As a result, players have to find whether giving up some notes to catch bananas would be a better option for getting a higher score (and it's the truth in some maps), which I think is highly off the intention of this scoring system and the game itself.
Uhm I'm pretty sure that it's impossible to get a higher score missing notes than with an SS because bananas only give 350 points each, where as every combo break that isn't at the very end or beginning of a map will likely hurt your score more than what the bananas can give you
Laharl
1,394 posts
Joined January 2011
Laharl
Kinda bothers me that spinners on spinner-heavy maps may be more worth than a 1.06x mod, but oh well.
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak

Laharl wrote:

Kinda bothers me that spinners on spinner-heavy maps may be more worth than a 1.06x mod, but oh well.
I don't see how that will be an issue on ScoreV2
CelegaS
484 posts
Joined April 2012
CelegaS
How fruit value are calculated:
We have a base value and a factor associated.
Factor is 1 for first fruit then log2(combo) for combo 1 to 200 and fixed after 200 combo. (second fruit has factor of log2(2))
Using log mean miss at 100 combo in 1000 combo map you will lose 33k points and miss after 200 combo only 6k more points lost.

For calculating base value we need to sum all factor of fruits (1+1+1.58+2+...) an then baseValue = 1000000/factorSum

All i said is only valid on circle-only map or map without droplet/tick because I tested only this configuration.
Last edited by CelegaS , edited 1 time in total.
akmal2232232123
111 posts
Joined October 2020
akmal2232232123
try to make it dependent on overall difficulty
*i mean for the pp system
Last edited by akmal2232232123 , edited 1 time in total.
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