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[Proposal] Catch the Beat ruleset draft (Specific)

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Total Posts
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Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif
See the draft of the general/skinning ruleset here: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/435597

And now the difficulty-specific ruleset for Catch the Beat we want to propose after weeks of deliberation, discussion and testplays. It can also be used as a mapping guideline or just to help defining what belongs to each level of difficulty:

Cup



Rules

  1. Dashes and hyperdashes of any kind are disallowed. This is to ensure an easy starting experience to beginner players. In order to test that out, it must be possible to achieve an SS rank on the difficulty without making use of the dash key.
  2. Adequate time must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability. Depending on the BPM of the song, this time must conform to the following:
    1. BPM < 120 - 1/2 bar
    2. BPM < 240 - 1 bar
    3. BPM ≥ 240 - 2 bars
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 8 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 pattern - 1/2 and/or 1/3 patterns can be used sparingly
  3. Approach Rate / Overall Difficulty should be between 4-6
  4. HP drain should be 4 or less
  5. Circle Size should be between 2-3

Salad



Rules

  1. Hyperdashes of any kind are disallowed. This is to ensure a manageable step in difficulty for novice players. Difficulties may make use of basic (1/1, 1/2) regular dashing, although no type of dash can be used more than twice consecutively.
  2. Edge dashes must not be used as they require extremely precise timing which cannot be expected of less-experienced players.
  3. Adequate time must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability. Depending on the BPM of the song, this time must conform to the following:
    1. BPM < 120 - 1/2 bar
    2. BPM < 240 - 1 bar
    3. BPM ≥ 240 - 2 bars
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 10 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 and 1/2 pattern - 1/3 and/or 1/4 patterns can be used sparingly. Individual 1/3 and/or 1/4 patterns must not persist for more than one bar (4 and 5 objects respectively).
  3. 1/2 dashes may be used in pairs, 1/3 and 1/4 dashes singularly (not in conjunction with other dashes) if the BPM is less than 120.
  4. Approach Rate / Overall Difficulty should be between 6-7
  5. HP drain should be between 4-5
  6. Circle Size should be between 2.5-3.5

Platter



Rules

  1. Basic hyperdashes (1/1, 1/2) may begin to appear, but must not be used in conjunction with each other. Platters should serve as an introduction to hyperdashing, meaning strong hypers and hypers (e.g. 1.5x above the trigger distance) and hypers combined with antiflow patterns must not be used. 1/3 and 1/4 hyperdashes may be used singularly (not in conjunction with other dashes or hyperdashes) if the BPM is less than 120.
  2. Edge dashes must not be used as they require extremely precise timing which cannot be expected of less-experienced players.
  3. Adequate time must be left between objects and the start of spinners to ensure readability. Depending on the BPM of the song, this time must conform to the following:
    1. BPM < 120 - 1/4 bar
    2. BPM < 240 - 1/2 bar
    3. BPM ≥ 240 - 1 bar
    The spacing between the end of a spinner and the next object must be at least 1/2 a bar regardless of BPM.
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 12 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/2 and/or 1/3 pattern - 1/4 and/or 1/6 patterns can be used sparingly.
  3. Approach Rate / Overall Difficulty should be between 7-8.5
  4. HP drain should be between 5-6
  5. Circle Size should be between 3-4

Rain



Rules

  1. More complex hyperdashes (1/3, 1/4) may begin to appear, but no type of hyperdash can be used between more than four consecutive objects. Additionally, hyperdashes of different beat snap (1/2, 1/4, etc.) must not be used between consecutive objects.
  2. Adequate time must be left between objects and the start of spinners to ensure readability. Depending on the BPM of the song, this time must conform to the following:
    1. BPM < 120 - 1/4 bar
    2. BPM < 240 - 1/2 bar
    3. BPM ≥ 240 - 1 bar
    The spacing between the end of a spinner and the next object must be at least 1/2 a bar regardless of BPM.
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 16 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/2 + 1/4 and/or 1/3 + 1/6 pattern - 1/8 patterns and higher can be used sparingly.
  3. 1/6 and 1/8 hyperdashes may be used singularly (not in conjunction with other dashes or hyperdashes) if the BPM is less than 120.
  4. Edge dashes may only be used singularly (not in conjunction with other dashes or hyperdashes).
  5. Approach Rate/Overall Difficulty should be between 7-9
  6. HP drain should be between 6-7
  7. Circle Size should be between 3-5

Overdose


Rules

  1. Adequate time must be left between objects and the start of spinners to ensure readability. Depending on the BPM of the song, this time must conform to the following:
    1. BPM < 240 - 1/4 bar
    2. BPM ≥ 240 - 1/2 bar
    The spacing between the end of a spinner and the next object must be at least 1/2 a bar regardless of BPM.
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 16 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/2 + 1/4 and/or 1/3 + 1/6 pattern - 1/8 patterns and higher can be used sparingly.
  3. 1/8 and higher hyperdashes should not be used between consecutive object pairs.
  4. Edge dashes may be used with caution for a maximum of three consecutive objects, and should not be used in conjunction with hyperdashes.
  5. Approach Rate/Overall Difficulty should be between 8-10
  6. HP drain should be between 6-8
  7. Circle Size should be between 3-6

Revision #2

Cup



Rules

  1. Dashes and hyperdashes of any kind are disallowed. This is to ensure an easy starting experience to beginner players. In order to test that out, it must be possible to achieve an SS rank on the difficulty without making use of the dash key.
  2. Adequate time must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability. Depending on the BPM of the song, this time must conform to the following:
    1. BPM < 120 - 1/2 bar
    2. BPM < 240 - 1 bar
    3. BPM ≥ 240 - 2 bars
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 8 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 pattern - 1/2 and/or 1/3 patterns can be used sparingly
  3. Approach Rate / Overall Difficulty should be between 4-6
  4. HP drain should be 4 or less
  5. Circle Size should be between 2-3

Salad



Rules

  1. Hyperdashes of any kind are disallowed. This is to ensure a manageable step in difficulty for novice players. Difficulties may make use of basic (1/1, 1/2) regular dashing, although no type of dash can be used more than twice consecutively.
  2. Borderline dashes must not be used as they require extremely precise timing which cannot be expected of less-experienced players.
  3. Adequate time must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability. Depending on the BPM of the song, this time must conform to the following:
    1. BPM < 120 - 1/2 bar
    2. BPM < 240 - 1 bar
    3. BPM ≥ 240 - 2 bars
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 10 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 and 1/2 pattern - 1/3 and/or 1/4 patterns can be used sparingly. Individual 1/3 and/or 1/4 patterns must not persist for more than one bar (4 and 5 objects respectively).
  3. 1/2 dashes may be used in pairs, 1/3 and 1/4 dashes singularly (not in conjunction with other dashes) if the BPM is less than 120.
  4. Approach Rate / Overall Difficulty should be between 6-7
  5. HP drain should be between 4-5
  6. Circle Size should be between 2.5-3.5

Platter



Rules

  1. Basic hyperdashes (1/1, 1/2) may begin to appear, but must not be used in conjunction with each other. Platters should serve as an introduction to hyperdashing, meaning strong hypers and hypers (e.g. 1.5x above the trigger distance) and hypers combined with antiflow patterns must not be used. 1/3 and 1/4 hyperdashes may be used singularly (not in conjunction with other dashes or hyperdashes) if the BPM is less than 120.
  2. Borderline dashes must not be used as they require extremely precise timing which cannot be expected of less-experienced players.
  3. Adequate time must be left between objects and the start of spinners to ensure readability. Depending on the BPM of the song, this time must conform to the following:
    1. BPM < 120 - 1/4 bar
    2. BPM < 240 - 1/2 bar
    3. BPM ≥ 240 - 1 bar
    The spacing between the end of a spinner and the next object must be at least 1/2 a bar regardless of BPM.
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 12 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/2 and/or 1/3 pattern - 1/4 and/or 1/6 patterns can be used sparingly.
  3. Approach Rate / Overall Difficulty should be between 7-8.5
  4. HP drain should be between 5-6
  5. Circle Size should be between 3-4

Rain



Rules

  1. More complex hyperdashes (1/3, 1/4) may begin to appear, but no type of hyperdash can be used between more than four consecutive objects. Additionally, hyperdashes of different beat snap (1/2, 1/4, etc.) must not be used between consecutive objects.
  2. Adequate time must be left between objects and the start of spinners to ensure readability. Depending on the BPM of the song, this time must conform to the following:
    1. BPM < 120 - 1/4 bar
    2. BPM < 240 - 1/2 bar
    3. BPM ≥ 240 - 1 bar
    The spacing between the end of a spinner and the next object must be at least 1/2 a bar regardless of BPM.
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 16 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/2 + 1/4 and/or 1/3 + 1/6 pattern - 1/8 patterns and higher can be used sparingly.
  3. 1/6 and 1/8 hyperdashes may be used singularly (not in conjunction with other dashes or hyperdashes) if the BPM is less than 120.
  4. Borderline dashes may only be used singularly (not in conjunction with other dashes or hyperdashes).
  5. Approach Rate/Overall Difficulty should be between 7-9
  6. HP drain should be between 6-7
  7. Circle Size should be between 3-5

Overdose


Rules

  1. Adequate time must be left between objects and the start of spinners to ensure readability. Depending on the BPM of the song, this time must conform to the following:
    1. BPM < 240 - 1/4 bar
    2. BPM ≥ 240 - 1/2 bar
    The spacing between the end of a spinner and the next object must be at least 1/2 a bar regardless of BPM.
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 16 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/2 + 1/4 and/or 1/3 + 1/6 pattern - 1/8 patterns and higher can be used sparingly.
  3. 1/8 and higher hyperdashes should not be used between consecutive object pairs.
  4. Borderline dashes may be used with caution for a maximum of three consecutive objects, and should not be used in conjunction with hyperdashes.
  5. Approach Rate/Overall Difficulty should be between 8-10
  6. HP drain should be between 6-8
  7. Circle Size should be between 3-6

Revision #1

Cup



Rules

  1. Dashes and hyperdashes of any kind are disallowed. This is to ensure an easy starting experience to beginner players. In order to test that out, it must be possible to achieve an SS rank on the difficulty without making use of the dash key.
  2. At least 1 beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability.
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 8 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 pattern - 1/2 and/or 1/3 patterns can be used sparingly
  3. AR/OD should be between 5-6
  4. HP should be 4 or less
  5. CS should be between 2-3

Salad



Rules

  1. Hyperdashes of any kind are disallowed. This is to ensure a manageable step in difficulty for novice players. Difficulties may make use of basic (1/1, 1/2) regular dashing, although no type of dash can be used more than twice consecutively.
  2. At least 1 beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability.
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 10 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 and 1/2 pattern - 1/3 and/or 1/4 patterns can be used sparingly.
  3. 1/2 dashes may be used in pairs, 1/3 and 1/4 dashes on their own (not in conjunction with other dashes) if the BPM is less than 120.
  4. AR/OD should be between 6-7
  5. HP should be between 4-5
  6. CS should be between 2.5-3.5

Platter



Rules

  1. Basic hyperdashes (1/1, 1/2) may begin to appear, but must not be used in conjunction with each other. Platters should serve as an introduction to hyperdashing, meaning excessively strong hypers and hypers combined with antiflow patterns must not be used.
  2. Timing jumps must also not be used.
  3. At least 1/2 a beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability.
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 12 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/2 and/or 1/3 pattern - 1/4 and/or 1/6 patterns can be used sparingly.
  3. 1/3 and 1/4 hyperdashes may be used on their own (not in conjunction with other dashes) if the BPM is less than 120.
  4. AR/OD should be between 7-8
  5. HP should be between 5-6
  6. CS should be between 3-4

Rain



Rules

  1. More complex hyperdashes (1/3, 1/4) may begin to appear, but no type of hyperdash can be used more than twice consecutively.
  2. At least 1/2 a beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability.
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 16 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/2 + 1/4 and/or 1/3 + 1/6 pattern - 1/8 patterns and higher can be used sparingly.
  3. 1/6 and 1/8 hyperdashes may be used on their own (not in conjunction with other dashes) if the BPM is less than 120.
  4. AR/OD should be between 8-9
  5. HP should be between 6-7
  6. CS should be between 3.5-4.5

Overdose


Rules

  1. At least 1/4 a beat must be left between objects and the start of spinners to ensure readability. The spacing between the end of a spinner and the next object must be at least 1/2.
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 16 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/2 + 1/4 and/or 1/3 + 1/6 pattern - 1/8 patterns and higher can be used sparingly
  3. 1/8 and higher hyperdashes should not be used consecutively
  4. AR/OD should be between 9-10
  5. HP should be between 6-7
  6. CS should be between 4-5

EDIT: There'll be a limited time to post your feedback in these threads, so make sure to do it until the 10th April at 23:59 UTC. There'll be a period of couple of days afterwards where the council will deliberate and adjust the draft to the recieved input from the community. This is to ensure that the ruleset gets approved by the staff in a reasonable period of time. It should be plenty of time to get enough feedback, so don't complain afterwards when the ruleset gets approved!

The thread will be locked for further deliberation on the 8th May at 23:59 UTC. Make sure to post your opinion before that date!

This will be the last 2-week period to recieve feedback from the community. After locking the thread on the 29th May at 23:59 UTC the ruleset will be discussed one more time with the last recieved comments and ammended by the osu! staff afterwards.
MBomb
MBomb
A few points.

1. You've said stuff regarding beats, yet this is more dependant on bpm than anything else. I think it'd be best to set a limit (Such as the mentioned 120) to which this kinds of things mostly apply. (For example, on low bpm cups, a 1/2 beat being followed is quite common, and usually nice.

2. I feel as though combo limit of 8 is a bit too low, even for a cup. I think 10 would be best.

3. Chained dashes on salads should be a no, no matter what, in the same way chained HDashes are a no in platters. "1/2 dashes may be used in pairs" shouldn't be the case, regardless of bpm.

4. 1/3 and 1/4 HDashes being set at the same limit on platter is strange, because these would be different distances in terms of time. It'd be best to set the limit for 1/4 at 120bpm, for example, and then 1/3 of the equivalent time.

5. Timing jumps shouldn't appear in rains either, I'd add that in.

6. I think having 3 HDashes in a row is fine on a rain, however I would keep it lower than that. 2 is a bit too limiting imo, if the HDashes are the same timeline distance apart.

7. I think it'd be best to make it so you can't have 2 HDashes of varying strength in a row on a rain (For example, 1/2 HDash followed by 1/4 HDash), as these could be confusing for a player due to changing strengths.

8. I feel as though you should still keep the 1/2 limit in overdoses between spinner and note, as regardless of difficulty, these patterns aren't a determinent of skill, but instead knowledge of the map.

9. I feel as though the restrictions on overdoses other than that should be allowed to be bypassed (For example, the guideline against 2 1/8 HDashes in a row), if there are 2 overdoses (I know these are guidelines, but I feel that they'd be nice as rules, with the case of the first overdose following them, and the second not having to).

10. I feel as though avoiding timing jumps, whilst not being a rule for overdoses, should be a guideline, at least.

Alright, looking good, hope my points help.
Ascendance
Elite Mapper
4,225 posts
Joined July 2013
Ascendance
I have small issues with a few of these. Even if they're just "guidelines", in my own experience as a new ctb mapper (even though I'm still one of the newest mappers) there are a few guidelines that mappers are still expected to follow quite rigidly, and I think a bit of them give too little wiggle room.

Deif wrote:

See the draft of the general/skinning ruleset here: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/435597

Cup



Rules

  1. At least 1 beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability. I think this really needs to be specified for BPM, since there are some circumstances where this is a bit too harsh or strict for a "rule" rather than a guideline. If this is to be a rule, something really needs to be stated about the different bpms and when there can be exceptions to this rule.
Guidelines

  1. AR/OD should be between 5-6 Perhaps 4-6 would be better here? For 3 diff sets, I know personally I like to do 4-6-8 AR/OD, and I know for some bpms or song styles, 4 might be good for a guideline in this case, since newer mappers may not go for a 6-7-8-9-9.X spread on their first map.

Salad



Rules

  1. Hyperdashes of any kind are disallowed. This is to ensure a manageable step in difficulty for novice players. Difficulties may make use of basic (1/1, 1/2) regular dashing, although no type of dash can be used more than twice consecutively. rip krah
  2. At least 1 beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability. Same as above, though with salads it should be a bit more lenient
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 10 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 and 1/2 pattern - 1/3 and/or 1/4 patterns can be used sparingly. sparingly? I'm a bit iffy on this wording since it can be interpreted differently on what constitutes as "sparingly" but, okay.
  3. CS should be between 2.5-3.5 I think 3-3.5 may be better. Currently, there's only one ranked salad at 2.5 CS, and it was used only as an exception of the low bpm of 87. Making the guideline be a minimum of 3 may be a bit more helpful here to set a basis.

Platter



Rules

  1. Basic hyperdashes (1/1, 1/2) may begin to appear, but must not be used in conjunction with each other. Platters should serve as an introduction to hyperdashing, meaning excessively strong hypers and hypers combined with antiflow patterns must not be used. Again, this should probably be defined a bit more to be identified as a hard rule.
Guidelines

  1. 1/3 and 1/4 hyperdashes may be used on their own (not in conjunction with other dashes) if the BPM is less than 120. I've always had an issue with this rule, not about the bpm, but the fact that they are nearly not allowed. I think 1/4 dashes should be able to be allowed if the pattern is easy enough where there is little to no effort in catching that type of dash. There's been times where I have to abandon an entire style of mapping simply because I'm not able to emphasize what I want in a platter, and it ends up making the song undermapped or underemphasized.
  2. AR/OD should be between 7-8 I like 8.2 and 8.5 on platters ;w; but this is a guideline so it's fine I guess
  3. CS should be between 3-4 as above, maybe 3.5 - 4 is best?
this is just what i noticed soooooo enjoy
MBomb
MBomb
Oh also please set overdose limit on AR from 9-9.8. AR10 should never be used on ctb.
Ascendance
Elite Mapper
4,225 posts
Joined July 2013
Ascendance

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

Oh also please set overdose limit on AR from 9-9.8. AR10 should never be used on ctb.
+2 kudosu
Sey
1,406 posts
Joined October 2010
Sey

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

Oh also please set overdose limit on AR from 9-9.8. AR10 should never be used on ctb.
AR10 should clearly be allowed on overdoses. I am totally against disallowing it per se since it limits mappers who seriously wanna try it. Depending on song, bpm, general feeling of the rhythm and many other factors AR10 can be extremely fitting on an overdose. It's only that not many people feel able to map it due to not able to testplay, but that's another story.

Anyway, I check the OP tomorrow and give my opinion on this asap.
Absolute Zero
595 posts
Joined August 2014
Absolute Zero
A few of the points I wanted to put my two cents in.

Cup
  1. At least 1 beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability.
    This is heavily bpm-dependent, especially for lower bpms where 1/1 may leave awkward space. This feels more of a gray area right now, perhaps you could define specifically when?
Salad
  1. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 and 1/2 pattern - 1/3 and/or 1/4 patterns can be used sparingly.
    1/3 might as well be allowed in some cases as the dominant rhythm when songs are in 3/4 or 6/8 time--considering that most of the sliders would then be 1/3 or 2/3 and note distances would follow.
Rain
  1. More complex hyperdashes (1/3, 1/4) may begin to appear, but no type of hyperdash can be used more than twice consecutively.
    Slightly confused what you mean by "type". Is it type as in rhythm, or type as in distance? Also, you could say what you mean by "complex" like higher distance, or more a back-forth movement?
  2. CS should be between 3.5-4.5
    Extend this to CS 3.5-5? Rains with CS5 have been fine in the past, and sometimes it's used in shorter rains.
Overdose
Predicting the differing opinions on "how hard the hardest" overdoses should be, you might also add another subcategory made for especially hard maps to make sure that mappers are not confined. Of course, there are maps just made for the sake of being unreasonably difficult, but those don't really apply to these categories. Also, this way you could split up the AR so in the other "harder" category it might also include AR10, while in this category it does not (AR9-AR9.6, say). I mean, overdoses vary so much in difficulty.
Last edited by Absolute Zero , edited 3 times in total.
koliron
791 posts
Joined July 2014
koliron

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

Oh also please set overdose limit on AR from 9-9.8. AR10 should never be used on ctb.
I agree, there is no way to add 9.8+, in my opinion would be unnecessary, except if is like 350+ bpm, and that is not usual
JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,922 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion
MBomb

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

A few points.

3. Chained dashes on salads should be a no, no matter what, in the same way chained HDashes are a no in platters. "1/2 dashes may be used in pairs" shouldn't be the case, regardless of bpm. If we follow this train of thought, we go from "single dash only" to "chained dashes and some hdash", which creates a huge imbalance in Salad>Platter difficulty. The allowance of double dash in Salads will help to balance this out

4. 1/3 and 1/4 HDashes being set at the same limit on platter is strange, because these would be different distances in terms of time. It'd be best to set the limit for 1/4 at 120bpm, for example, and then 1/3 of the equivalent time. Intended to create as simple a reading task as possible, and to avoid people having to calculate what they should and should not do. If we include all permutations of this the RC will become unwieldy and no-one will read it (:

Ascendance

Ascendance wrote:

I have small issues with a few of these. Even if they're just "guidelines", in my own experience as a new ctb mapper (even though I'm still one of the newest mappers) there are a few guidelines that mappers are still expected to follow quite rigidly, and I think a bit of them give too little wiggle room.

This is the intention - most guidelines should only be broken in EXCEPTIONAL circumstances, giving too much leeway allows them to be ignored and abused to the point where they become irrelevant

Deif wrote:

See the draft of the general/skinning ruleset here: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/435597

Cup



Guidelines

  1. AR/OD should be between 5-6 Perhaps 4-6 would be better here? For 3 diff sets, I know personally I like to do 4-6-8 AR/OD, and I know for some bpms or song styles, 4 might be good for a guideline in this case, since newer mappers may not go for a 6-7-8-9-9.X spread on their first map.
AR4 is really slow in a majority of cases and can even impact readability - this exists as a guideline to allow AR4 in those exceptional cases you mentioned

Salad



Guidelines

  1. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 and 1/2 pattern - 1/3 and/or 1/4 patterns can be used sparingly. sparingly? I'm a bit iffy on this wording since it can be interpreted differently on what constitutes as "sparingly" but, okay.
    If the exact criteria for when higher snap patterns could be implemented was defined we could make this a rule instead of a guideline. Sadly thart would be unnecessarily restrictive and short-sighted considering the huge variance in music style, so this works best as a guideline
  2. CS should be between 2.5-3.5 I think 3-3.5 may be better. Currently, there's only one ranked salad at 2.5 CS, and it was used only as an exception of the low bpm of 87. Making the guideline be a minimum of 3 may be a bit more helpful here to set a basis.
    There are more on the way, and one in qualified right now (^:

Platter



Rules

  1. Basic hyperdashes (1/1, 1/2) may begin to appear, but must not be used in conjunction with each other. Platters should serve as an introduction to hyperdashing, meaning excessively strong hypers and hypers combined with antiflow patterns must not be used. Again, this should probably be defined a bit more to be identified as a hard rule.
    Could you elaborate on what you would consider a "better definition"?
Guidelines

  1. 1/3 and 1/4 hyperdashes may be used on their own (not in conjunction with other dashes) if the BPM is less than 120. I've always had an issue with this rule, not about the bpm, but the fact that they are nearly not allowed. I think 1/4 dashes should be able to be allowed if the pattern is easy enough where there is little to no effort in catching that type of dash. There's been times where I have to abandon an entire style of mapping simply because I'm not able to emphasize what I want in a platter, and it ends up making the song undermapped or underemphasized.
    This is to create a sensible spread between Salad and Platter difficulties. The usage of high snap hdash in Platters creates a huge difficulty spike and as an element, ruins the difficulty spread. Simpler, low snap hypers should suffice for Platter. If you want to emphasize the song more, map a Rain as well
  2. CS should be between 3-4 as above, maybe 3.5 - 4 is best?
    CS3 is not an uncommon feature on Platters

AZ

Absolute Zero wrote:

A few of the points I wanted to put my two cents in.

Cup
  1. At least 1 beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability.
    This is heavily bpm-dependent, especially for lower bpms where 1/1 may leave awkward space. This feels more of a gray area right now, perhaps you could define specifically when?
    You are entitled and encouraged to help us come up with a better definition if anything springs to mind!
Salad
  1. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 and 1/2 pattern - 1/3 and/or 1/4 patterns can be used sparingly.
    1/3 might as well be allowed in some cases as the dominant rhythm when songs are in 3/4 or 6/8 time--considering that most of the sliders would then be 1/3 or 2/3 and note distances would follow.
    1/3 dominant rhythm on a Salad will create a huge imbalance in note density between Cup and Salad diffs. Sticking to a 1/1 dominant rhythm with more liberal 1/3 usage is more appropriate
Platter
  1. Basic hyperdashes (1/1, 1/2) may begin to appear, but must not be used in conjunction with each other. Platters should serve as an introduction to hyperdashing, meaning excessively strong hypers and hypers combined with antiflow patterns must not be used.
    I don't know if I'm misreading, but also specify that more than 1 or 2 hyperdashes in a row is highly discouraged? I'm not sure if it's redundant to mention it again (it's said in the rain) but might be good to clarify that.
    "must not be used in conjunction with each other" - this applies to two hypers of ANY type or strength
Rain
  1. More complex hyperdashes (1/3, 1/4) may begin to appear, but no type of hyperdash can be used more than twice consecutively.
    Slightly confused what you mean by "type". Is it type as in rhythm, or type as in distance? Also, you could say what you mean by "complex" like higher distance, or more a back-forth movement?
    Type means anything: Snap, strength, flowtype, etc. Basically, don't put 3 hypers in a row. Complex patterns will involve high snap (as indicated), antiflowing hypers, hypers close(r) to the screen border, etc. It's a catch-all definition I'd like to improve
  2. CS should be between 3.5-4.5
    Extend this to CS 3.5-5? Rains with CS5 have been fine in the past, and sometimes it's used in shorter rains.
    This is a guideline, CS5 Rains are still allowed, but are certainly not within a "normal" mapping meta
Overdose
Of course, there are maps just made for the sake of being unreasonably difficult, but those don't really apply to these categories.
These maps are clearly not intended for rank, so the RC do not apply to them

Thanks for the feedback so far guys!
Ascendance
Elite Mapper
4,225 posts
Joined July 2013
Ascendance
For the rule which you asked for a better definition - I think that a clear indication of "excessively strong" should be used in the case of a rule. If it was a guideline, it's different. For example, the wall to wall hyperdash rule has clear boundaries between rankable and unrankable, so, I think that should be the case here as well. If there is not any specifics, it can be really subjective and case-by-case as to when to apply this rule to beatmaps, especially if the mapper is adamant and declines constantly on their own terms that it's an acceptable dash.
Yuii-
2,503 posts
Joined July 2013
Yuii-
@Mike: As for the spinner on Cup/Salad. I'm not sure if you guys are okay with this but Garven once proposed to separate recovery time into two different sections. If map's BPM <150 then 2~3 stanzas are more than enough (can't remember the exact values, I am not being that active). Deif is proposing only one stanza which, hey, on CtB is VERY readable. Trust me. I don't even play Rains and I feel that only one stanza is more than enough at low BPMs. Higher BPMs may be a bit different considering the amount of density the difficulty has.
As an example, the recovery time of t/423859 my Relaxing difficulty is actually okay-ish. There's no need for more recovery time. You can ask any newbie player and they all will tell you the same. Recovery time is hard to set on some scenarios.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
Gonna answer to a few point.

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

A few points.


2. I feel as though combo limit of 8 is a bit too low, even for a cup. I think 10 would be best. 8 is low? Please, most mapper out there using NC on every new stanza, which is on the Cups result much lower combo count, 5-6 at most. Limiting it to 8 results that you can use NCs on every 2nd stanza without having to worry about the long combos. As a guideline, you don't need to be afraid of 9 either if you follow your previously decided rule about the NCing. For example, if you decided to add one at every 2nd stanza but at one point your combo is reaching 9-10 its still could be acceptable. Well, I don't really want to see that. :c

3. Chained dashes on salads should be a no, no matter what, in the same way chained HDashes are a no in platters. "1/2 dashes may be used in pairs" shouldn't be the case, regardless of bpm. Chained Dashes on Salads are no? Then what about the 1/4 Hypers or chained dashes on Platter? Currently the gap between Salad and Platter is really high due to the fact that many player likes to use a lot of Hyper there. There are players who can play Salads just fine but has no chance on Platters due their density. Currently the Platters are not just the introduction of Hypers but it contains high level Dashes as well while a Salad has only the most basic ones. This change was proposed by me in order to reduce this gap and the players be able to train the dashes on an earlier level than Platter and not just get the most advanced ones in the face later. There were several other option to reduce this gap but I doubt any of you agreed with the Platter limitation even more given the fact that some ppl even want to include 1/4 Hypers there. :c

4. 1/3 and 1/4 HDashes being set at the same limit on platter is strange, because these would be different distances in terms of time. It'd be best to set the limit for 1/4 at 120bpm, for example, and then 1/3 of the equivalent time. Strange, isn't it? Joke aside, the Platter is still the introduction of the Hypers and both 1/3 and 1/4 are belongs to the advanced ones. Set the same limit to both is making it easier to remember.

6. I think having 3 HDashes in a row is fine on a rain, however I would keep it lower than that. 2 is a bit too limiting imo, if the HDashes are the same timeline distance apart. This limit is only for the 1/4s and 1/3s which is there to limit the chained Hypers in streams and stuff. Using 1/2 chains should be fine.

8. I feel as though you should still keep the 1/2 limit in overdoses between spinner and note, as regardless of difficulty, these patterns aren't a determinent of skill, but instead knowledge of the map. I find it strange that it was changed later tho in the earlier time this was the same for all Difficulty. :c

10. I feel as though avoiding timing jumps, whilst not being a rule for overdoses, should be a guideline, at least. Hm, yea. They are pain anyway.

Alright, looking good, hope my points help.

Ascendance wrote:

I have small issues with a few of these. Even if they're just "guidelines", in my own experience as a new ctb mapper (even though I'm still one of the newest mappers) there are a few guidelines that mappers are still expected to follow quite rigidly, and I think a bit of them give too little wiggle room.

Deif wrote:

See the draft of the general/skinning ruleset here: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/435597

Cup



Rules

  1. At least 1 beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability. I think this really needs to be specified for BPM, since there are some circumstances where this is a bit too harsh or strict for a "rule" rather than a guideline. If this is to be a rule, something really needs to be stated about the different bpms and when there can be exceptions to this rule. On lower bpm 1 beat is more than enough to react while you should take a look at the "at least" part of the sentence. This one part is the one which basically tells you that if the bpm is higher, like 320, then you can, and even you must, use bigger distance between them.

Salad




Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 10 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 and 1/2 pattern - 1/3 and/or 1/4 patterns can be used sparingly. sparingly? I'm a bit iffy on this wording since it can be interpreted differently on what constitutes as "sparingly" but, okay. I might be a bit rude here, but instead of just saying it sounds bad, you should provide a solution to make it better. :c

Platter



Rules

  1. Basic hyperdashes (1/1, 1/2) may begin to appear, but must not be used in conjunction with each other. Platters should serve as an introduction to hyperdashing, meaning excessively strong hypers and hypers combined with antiflow patterns must not be used. Again, this should probably be defined a bit more to be identified as a hard rule. And again, you tell us its not good but giving no alternative solution.
this is just what i noticed soooooo enjoy
Thats just a few thing what came into my mind while reading the comments above.
ursa
1,302 posts
Joined April 2010
ursa
Cup

*Dashes and hyperdashes of any kind are disallowed. This is to ensure an easy starting experience to beginner players. In order to test that out, it must be possible to achieve an SS rank on the difficulty without making use of the dash key.Agree With Hyperdashes,butI think Dashes should be categorized as Not Recommended instead of disallowed.
*At least 1 beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability.Agree ,but we should need to decide about the low BPM

Not Recommended Is like don't use it excpet if you it's very suitable part on the songs & just put it one ( Keep in mind, the map should possible to achieve an SS rank on the difficulty without making use of the dash key still applied)

that's for cup diff first. I want to give my opinion about the other diff but, i need to do some research for many example diff first.
autofanboy
Elite Mapper / osu!trivium Champion
1,578 posts
Joined January 2011
autofanboy
Hello! Glad to hear about changes like this, so I would like to make some comments on it.

Deif wrote:

See the draft of the general/skinning ruleset here: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/435597

And now the difficulty-specific ruleset for Catch the Beat we want to propose after weeks of deliberation, discussion and testplays. It can also be used as a mapping guideline or just to help defining what belongs to each level of difficulty:

Cup



Rules

  1. Dashes and hyperdashes of any kind are disallowed. This is to ensure an easy starting experience to beginner players. In order to test that out, it must be possible to achieve an SS rank on the difficulty without making use of the dash key. - I agree with the point about disallowing dashes and HDashes. In addition, I think the distances are also needed to be managed, like some parts can be FC'ed without dashes but it is too hard (holding a key for a long time) so I guess such scenarios can also be pointed out for clarification.
  2. At least 1 beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability. - I understand that it is done to prevent players from missing because they don't know how to dash / dash properly. However this may change based on the song BPM, some of them are fast in rhythm so the fruits will fall faster. I think it is also necessary to mention about the BPM range for respective timeline distance, such as 160+ BPM = at least 2/1 distance etc. for clarification as well.
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 8 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 pattern - 1/2 and/or 1/3 patterns can be used sparingly
  3. AR/OD should be between 5-6
  4. HP should be 4 or less
  5. CS should be between 2-3

Salad



Rules

  1. Hyperdashes of any kind are disallowed. This is to ensure a manageable step in difficulty for novice players. Difficulties may make use of basic (1/1, 1/2) regular dashing, although no type of dash can be used more than twice consecutively.
  2. At least 1 beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability. - In my opinion, Salad is still an easier difficulty in the spread (as a progress from Cup to Platter), so usually beginners are unable to read spinners very well if they only played Cup and trying to progress. I think it is better to state that note distance need to be similar as that of Cup too, such as 160+ BPM = 2/1 timeline distance and etc.
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 10 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 and 1/2 pattern - 1/3 and/or 1/4 patterns can be used sparingly.
  3. 1/2 dashes may be used in pairs, 1/3 and 1/4 dashes on their own (not in conjunction with other dashes) if the BPM is less than 120.
  4. AR/OD should be between 6-7
  5. HP should be between 4-5
  6. CS should be between 2.5-3.5

Platter



Rules

  1. Basic hyperdashes (1/1, 1/2) may begin to appear, but must not be used in conjunction with each other. Platters should serve as an introduction to hyperdashing, meaning excessively strong hypers and hypers combined with antiflow patterns must not be used. - BPM needs to be stated, it is like some maps with lower BPM songs can include HDash at 1/4 note distance so it should be clarified.
  2. Timing jumps must also not be used. - Indeed it is a must to define what is a 'timing jump', some novice mappers / modders might not know about it.
  3. At least 1/2 a beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability.
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 12 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/2 and/or 1/3 pattern - 1/4 and/or 1/6 patterns can be used sparingly.
  3. 1/3 and 1/4 hyperdashes may be used on their own (not in conjunction with other dashes) if the BPM is less than 120.
  4. AR/OD should be between 7-8
  5. HP should be between 5-6
  6. CS should be between 3-4

Rain



Rules

  1. More complex hyperdashes (1/3, 1/4) may begin to appear, but no type of hyperdash can be used more than twice consecutively.
  2. At least 1/2 a beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability.
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 16 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/2 + 1/4 and/or 1/3 + 1/6 pattern - 1/8 patterns and higher can be used sparingly.
  3. 1/6 and 1/8 hyperdashes may be used on their own (not in conjunction with other dashes) if the BPM is less than 120.
  4. AR/OD should be between 8-9
  5. HP should be between 6-7
  6. CS should be between 3.5-4.5

Overdose


Rules

  1. At least 1/4 a beat must be left between objects and the start of spinners to ensure readability. The spacing between the end of a spinner and the next object must be at least 1/2.
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 16 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/2 + 1/4 and/or 1/3 + 1/6 pattern - 1/8 patterns and higher can be used sparingly
  3. 1/8 and higher hyperdashes should not be used consecutively
  4. AR/OD should be between 9-10
  5. HP should be between 6-7
  6. CS should be between 4-5
Nice guidelines but I think the NCs should be presented in another way, such as saying NC should be placed for every stanza / noticing the changes in vocal / music rhythm / music melodies (stanza). Anyways NC is a pretty subjective topic in my opinion so it is actually fine to say it should be following the rhythm and reasonable.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
@afb You can find the description of Timing Jumps in the other part of the RC (the other thread).
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif
See the update in the OP: The deadline is on 10th April at 23:59 UTC.
BoberOfDarkness
1,059 posts
Joined October 2013
BoberOfDarkness
I don't like idea of adding CS values to guidelines.

Many of songs works with small CS even if their are platters/rains/overdoses, manly on fast tempo maps (>170 BPM or even more. For example Crack overdose)
And this works in opposite way, very low BPM songs works very well with high CS (https://osu.ppy.sh/b/758290 this map for example)
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak

BoberOfDarkness wrote:

I don't like idea of adding CS values to guidelines.

Many of songs works with small CS even if their are platters/rains/overdoses, manly on fast tempo maps (>170 BPM or even more. For example Crack overdose)
And this works in opposite way, very low BPM songs works very well with high CS (https://osu.ppy.sh/b/758290 this map for example)
Isn't this precisely why it's in guidelines? For the most part CS values will be around what we advise and if the mapper wants to for good reason (such as the example you provided) then there should be no problem with it.
Sorceress
332 posts
Joined September 2012
Sorceress

Kurokami wrote:

@afb You can find the description of Timing Jumps in the other part of the RC (the other thread).
The only thing I could find in the other thread about Timing Jumps is
Timing jumps must not be used in direct conjunction with hyperjumps. This is because such patterns require especially precise movement and force an unreasonable restriction on accuracy required to catch them.
Which doesn't define what a Timing jump is. Now the Ranking Criteria uses a lot of terminology that isn't explained throughout though we can find descriptions of such terminology on the wiki and ingame but a Timing jump is not defined anywhere. Considering it's used in a few rules it would make sense to have some sort of description of what a Timing jump is. I'm not sure the Ranking Criteria is the place to define this however we do have a description for what an SS is in the Ranking Criteria so it wouldn't be entirely out of place.
Your map must theoretically be possible to SS. This means it must be possible to catch absolutely all fruits, including droplets.
Reading through the thread there was a few thoughts I had on some of these points.

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

A few points.

1. You've said stuff regarding beats, yet this is more dependant on bpm than anything else. I think it'd be best to set a limit (Such as the mentioned 120) to which this kinds of things mostly apply. (For example, on low bpm cups, a 1/2 beat being followed is quite common, and usually nice.

4. 1/3 and 1/4 HDashes being set at the same limit on platter is strange, because these would be different distances in terms of time. It'd be best to set the limit for 1/4 at 120bpm, for example, and then 1/3 of the equivalent time. - This is where I think things get a bit silly with beatsnap divisors and bpm. The response I've seen to this is that rules and guidelines should be simple to understand but should we be restricting mappers on what they can do just so they can easily understand the RC? It doesn't seem too like too much to add "1/3 and 1/4 hyperdashes may be used on their own (not in conjunction with other dashes) if the BPM is less than 120 for 1/4 hyperdashes and XXX for 1/3 hyperdashes."

5. Timing jumps shouldn't appear in rains either, I'd add that in. - Can agree with this. There's also no rule against this for Salads which do have dashes in them, shouldn't ever happen but I suppose rules should be consistent. Could be an idea instead to have "Timing jumps must not be used on difficulties below Overdose level" in the general criteria.

9. I feel as though the restrictions on overdoses other than that should be allowed to be bypassed (For example, the guideline against 2 1/8 HDashes in a row), if there are 2 overdoses (I know these are guidelines, but I feel that they'd be nice as rules, with the case of the first overdose following them, and the second not having to). As it is, there's nothing after Overdose level mentioned in the RC, either the rules have to be kept very relaxed or a higher tier needs adding.

10. I feel as though avoiding timing jumps, whilst not being a rule for overdoses, should be a guideline, at least. - And agree with this too, Timing jumps are not popular at all in current CtB mapping and for good reason. It's nice they're not ruled out entirely though they should be advised against.

Oh also please set overdose limit on AR from 9-9.8. AR10 should never be used on ctb. - Certainly don't agree with this one. Overdose is currently the top tier of difficulty and we know AR10 is well within the abilities of many players. Unless "Ultra" difficulty becomes a thing then nothing should be considered too difficult for an Overdose when it comes to the RC. Saying all that, it's only a guideline anyway.
For the beatmap settings guidelines, AR, OD and such, maybe they would be better phrased as "AR/OD is usually between X-X" instead of "AR/OD should be between X-X". Makes it clear that there is room to expand outside of those values.
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo
I feel like the guidelines for difficulty settings (AR, OD etc.) should be more lenient. Don't say 'they are guidelines, so people can use different settings with a good reason' - If you go with that approach, you might as well not have any guidelines at all because people can break them anyway. Guidelines should be treated as rules in atleast 99% of the cases, so you definitely need to consider edge-cases, too.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
There is no need to be more lenient with the difficulty settings. The mentioned exception by MBomb is only his thing. I doubt anyone else wants to make AR7 Overdose but if someone else wants and it actually fits nicely we might allow it. But for the lower levels I could agree with lower settings tho as osu! converted maps with AR2-3 plays just fine in CtB so to start it on 5 is just weird. I will bring this up later.

Sorcerer wrote:

Kurokami wrote:

@afb You can find the description of Timing Jumps in the other part of the RC (the other thread).

The only thing I could find in the other thread about Timing Jumps is
Timing jumps must not be used in direct conjunction with hyperjumps. This is because such patterns require especially precise movement and force an unreasonable restriction on accuracy required to catch them.
Which doesn't define what a Timing jump is. Now the Ranking Criteria uses a lot of terminology that isn't explained throughout though we can find descriptions of such terminology on the wiki and ingame but a Timing jump is not defined anywhere. Considering it's used in a few rules it would make sense to have some sort of description of what a Timing jump is. I'm not sure the Ranking Criteria is the place to define this however we do have a description for what an SS is in the Ranking Criteria so it wouldn't be entirely out of place.
Hm, its truely not there, but it will if the new criteria will be up. There is just no need to discuss that.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Formatting is a bit bad, but we can fix that. Avoid abbreviations everywhere. No OD, no AR, no SR, etc.

Cup



Rules

  1. At least 1 beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability. 1 beat? You mean 1 bar? Because that would be the correct term for it.
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 8 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 pattern - 1/2 and/or 1/3 patterns can be used sparingly
  3. AR/OD should be between 5-6
  4. HP should be 4 or less
  5. CS should be between 2-3
    what criteria must be met (roughly) to violate this kind of regulations?

Salad



Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 10 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception. is this related to the approach rate and note density? just understandment question from my side.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 and 1/2 pattern - 1/3 and/or 1/4 patterns can be used sparingly. uh, oh 1/4 in a Salad? I mean, it's CtB after all. Maybe you should specify that you mean triplet or quadruplets specifically here, so people do not attempt to map 5> streams.
  3. 1/2 dashes may be used in pairs, 1/3 and 1/4 dashes on their own (not in conjunction with other dashes) if the BPM is less than 120. "on their own"? are they autonomous? You probably want to call it "singularily" or "stand alone".

Platter



Rules

  1. Timing jumps must also not be used. the word "timing jumps" remain unexplained. It also does not explain why they should not be used.
Guidelines

  1. Combos should not exceed 12 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
  2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/2 and/or 1/3 pattern - 1/4 and/or 1/6 patterns can be used sparingly.
  3. 1/3 and 1/4 hyperdashes may be used on their own (not in conjunction with other dashes) if the BPM is less than 120. same as in Salad, I find the phrase "on their own" really odd.

Rain



Rules

  1. More complex hyperdashes (1/3, 1/4) may begin to appear, but no type of hyperdash can be used more than twice consecutively. oh? you want to limit it to 2 consecutive hyperdashes in rain? What is consecutive for you? within 1 bar? within 1/2? or two objects that follow each other are hyperdash fruits? maybe should be clarified.
  2. At least 1/2 a beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability. tbh I never understood the readability problem in the higher diffs ever since spinner fruits have own sprites... why is it still a problem apart of it being a tad uncomfortable? why not 1/4? everything above 1/4 I could understand somehow... maybe someone cares to explain it to me, because I missed out the times where this became a thing.

Overdose


Rules

  1. At least 1/4 a beat must be left between objects and the start of spinners to ensure readability. The spacing between the end of a spinner and the next object must be at least 1/2. oh? Why is that not a thing in Rain already? And still this 1/2 away from the spinner end is a bit odd to me, personally.

Looks good so far, I'd like to have a few things more.

EDIT: Re timing jump: The definition is hell-ass complicated and the term sucks. You must change that. A Timing Jump is basically a pair of objects that requires you to catch Object 1 with the one edge of the catcher in order to successfully be able to catch the Object 2 with the other edge of the catcher. The word "timing jump" never implies that. It is rather a "borderline catch". The jump is not even the issue here. the issue in this pattern is the position of the catcher when it catches Object 1. Some naming like "Borderline Catch" or "Borderline Dash" would make way more sense. Maybe someone else is able to summarize the concept of "a pair of object, that almost turns into a hyperdash, but doesn't yet." in one catchy word. Timing Jump is not doing the job. And the definition you screenshotted doesn't do that enough, either.

EDIT #2: I have to agree with Desperate-kun. In Rain and Overdose, at least the Approach Rate settings must be more lenient. Not everything should/must be AR9 or 10. This is narrow-minded and blocks people breaking out of the "speed contest" meta. There are many ways of making CtB maps interesting. Catching dense fruits with slow fall speed may be one of these things that enhance variety in mapping. I see no objectively good reason to limit it to AR9-10, just because the current meta dictates (as in: because converts do so, too). Name me one good reason apart of "it reads bad at AR8 overally" that makes you feel like you have to tell mappers that "mapping AR9-10 in Rains and Overdoses is a must, unless you can explain it VERY GOOD". You want the guidelines to apply for 98% of all cases, where violations only happen on exception. They way these are constructed right now is implying that these are just "tips in how to set the diff settings". Maybe reconsider on how you want to set this up.

Alternatively you can work out the conditions of what Approach Rate/Circle Size being used where. I can see AR8 or AR7.5 Rains be a thing, if the map has fulfilled appropirate conditions for it. You want people to believe that they do not even want to try violating these guidelines, unless they really have to. And for that mindset, these are a bit too rigid right now.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
@Loctav Answering to your second edit. Obviously whenever you map an Extra difficulty level you try to use as many instrument as possible from the song, am I right? Which means there are only a few 1/2 and many 1/4 or even 1/8 (depending on the song of course). Lowering the Approach Rate on such a note density will make the whole map being cramped, the effect is kinda similar when you try to play with Easy mod on Big Black or Image Material. It becomes unreadable as hell. Do not misunderstand me, I'm a big fan of the slower maps, like Ravers Fantasy (Nightcore Mix) and other old one but if you take a look at Big Black and those you will probably notice the difference right away (even in Catch the Beat).

If there is a way to allow slower Approach Rate to be playable on Extra levels, I'm up to the change. Meanwhile I do agree with the AR7.5 Rains and stuff only.

Answering to another one:

Loctav wrote:

At least 1/2 a beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability. tbh I never understood the readability problem in the higher diffs ever since spinner fruits have own sprites... why is it still a problem apart of it being a tad uncomfortable? why not 1/4? everything above 1/4 I could understand somehow... maybe someone cares to explain it to me, because I missed out the times where this became a thing. Because 1/4 already blends into the start and end of the spinner which makes you to actually be unable to catch the first few object of the spinner and dramatically increases to chance to miss the first note at the end depends on how your chosen path for the spinner. Basically limiting your movement. Even 1/2 could blend into it on higher bpm actually. :C

Also, I wondered about the name of "Timing Jumps" to change it "Edge Jumps" or which might speaks already but no one answered to my suggestion. :c Well, it might sounds too bad.
jeubach
43 posts
Joined October 2013
jeubach
@Loctav As far as I know, this is the first time I hear timing jumps btw, we call them pixel jumps because they have to be spacing perfect.

The following is my opinion as a player and as an aspring mapper.

Rain:
but no type of hyperdash can be used more than twice consecutively.

That is just silly, unnecessary, and outright stupid. Cups pave the way to salads, which in turn do so for platters, and so on. Rains are the technical gateway to anyone aspiring to ever play overdoses. In rains you learn the bases of complex and continuous movements. By limiting the amount of hyperdashes you can put in a rain, you limit the amount of technique a mapper can teach a player. Simple as that. Instead of outright banning more than 2 continuous hyperdashes you should just discourage it stating that continous hyperdashes are considered a higher difficulty and should be saved for overdoses.

Overdose
To be honest this is where things get controversial. But as I discussed with Vincs on stream yesterday when talking about the ranking system. Part of the reason why things aren't getting ranked is because of a mindset in the playerbase that "things don't look rankable".
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/940092 If you are a high skilled player take a look at that map.
It has a small circle size and high approach rate. If I look at it I'd say this shit is never gonna get ranked. But if I really analyze it, there's simply nothing wrong with it. It might be gimicky by trying to mess up your reading with weird settings, but it plays perfectly well. It is fun, it is stamina killing, and it is complex in terms of movement and timings. It is everything an overdose needs to be, and it is everything that we don't think overdoses are.

It's pretty obvious that a good part of the reason why things aren't getting ranked is because we are simply not open minded enough to accept that overdoses can be more than what we think they currently are.

Guidelines

◾Combos should not exceed 16 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
◾Note density should follow a mostly 1/2 + 1/4 and/or 1/3 + 1/6 pattern - 1/8 patterns and higher can be used sparingly
◾1/8 and higher hyperdashes should not be used consecutively
◾AR/OD should be between 9-10
◾HP should be between 6-7
◾CS should be between 4-5
Guidelines should be treated as rules in atleast 99% of the cases, so you definitely need to consider edge-cases, too.

If these are going to be guidelines, then they should be considered guidelines. Not rules that are to be followed. Because the only thing we are doing as a community by following these guidelines word by word would be kill the creativity of mappers. And God knows how much lack of creativity there was in a certain 7.4 star map that just got ranked yesterday.

Thank you for taking the time to read my concerns,
-Steve
BoberOfDarkness
1,059 posts
Joined October 2013
BoberOfDarkness

jeubach wrote:

If these are going to be guidelines, then they should be considered guidelines. Not rules that are to be followed. Because the only thing we are doing as a community by following these guidelines word by word would be kill the creativity of mappers. And God knows how much lack of creativity there was in a certain 7.4 star map that just got ranked yesterday.

Thank you for taking the time to read my concerns,
-Steve
Hi Steve, I am Wojtek who cares

I think that map you are talking about creativity was replaced with rank-ability just to rank it.

In my opinion games should grow the people creativity.
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