See the draft of the general/skinning ruleset here: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/435597

And now the difficulty-specific ruleset for Catch the Beat we want to propose after weeks of deliberation, discussion and testplays. It can also be used as a mapping guideline or just to help defining what belongs to each level of difficulty:








EDIT: There'll be a limited time to post your feedback in these threads, so make sure to do it until the 10th April at 23:59 UTC. There'll be a period of couple of days afterwards where the council will deliberate and adjust the draft to the recieved input from the community. This is to ensure that the ruleset gets approved by the staff in a reasonable period of time. It should be plenty of time to get enough feedback, so don't complain afterwards when the ruleset gets approved!

The thread will be locked for further deliberation on the 8th May at 23:59 UTC. Make sure to post your opinion before that date!

This will be the last 2-week period to recieve feedback from the community. After locking the thread on the 29th May at 23:59 UTC the ruleset will be discussed one more time with the last recieved comments and ammended by the osu! staff afterwards.

A few points.

1. You've said stuff regarding beats, yet this is more dependant on bpm than anything else. I think it'd be best to set a limit (Such as the mentioned 120) to which this kinds of things mostly apply. (For example, on low bpm cups, a 1/2 beat being followed is quite common, and usually nice.

2. I feel as though combo limit of 8 is a bit too low, even for a cup. I think 10 would be best.

3. Chained dashes on salads should be a no, no matter what, in the same way chained HDashes are a no in platters. "1/2 dashes may be used in pairs" shouldn't be the case, regardless of bpm.

4. 1/3 and 1/4 HDashes being set at the same limit on platter is strange, because these would be different distances in terms of time. It'd be best to set the limit for 1/4 at 120bpm, for example, and then 1/3 of the equivalent time.

5. Timing jumps shouldn't appear in rains either, I'd add that in.

6. I think having 3 HDashes in a row is fine on a rain, however I would keep it lower than that. 2 is a bit too limiting imo, if the HDashes are the same timeline distance apart.

7. I think it'd be best to make it so you can't have 2 HDashes of varying strength in a row on a rain (For example, 1/2 HDash followed by 1/4 HDash), as these could be confusing for a player due to changing strengths.

8. I feel as though you should still keep the 1/2 limit in overdoses between spinner and note, as regardless of difficulty, these patterns aren't a determinent of skill, but instead knowledge of the map.

9. I feel as though the restrictions on overdoses other than that should be allowed to be bypassed (For example, the guideline against 2 1/8 HDashes in a row), if there are 2 overdoses (I know these are guidelines, but I feel that they'd be nice as rules, with the case of the first overdose following them, and the second not having to).

10. I feel as though avoiding timing jumps, whilst not being a rule for overdoses, should be a guideline, at least.

Alright, looking good, hope my points help.

I have small issues with a few of these. Even if they're just "guidelines", in my own experience as a new ctb mapper (even though I'm still one of the newest mappers) there are a few guidelines that mappers are still expected to follow quite rigidly, and I think a bit of them give too little wiggle room.

Deif wrote:

See the draft of the general/skinning ruleset here: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/435597

Cup

Rules

1. At least 1 beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability. I think this really needs to be specified for BPM, since there are some circumstances where this is a bit too harsh or strict for a "rule" rather than a guideline. If this is to be a rule, something really needs to be stated about the different bpms and when there can be exceptions to this rule.

Guidelines

1. AR/OD should be between 5-6 Perhaps 4-6 would be better here? For 3 diff sets, I know personally I like to do 4-6-8 AR/OD, and I know for some bpms or song styles, 4 might be good for a guideline in this case, since newer mappers may not go for a 6-7-8-9-9.X spread on their first map.

Salad

Rules

1. Hyperdashes of any kind are disallowed. This is to ensure a manageable step in difficulty for novice players. Difficulties may make use of basic (1/1, 1/2) regular dashing, although no type of dash can be used more than twice consecutively. rip krah
2. At least 1 beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability. Same as above, though with salads it should be a bit more lenient

Guidelines

1. Combos should not exceed 10 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 and 1/2 pattern - 1/3 and/or 1/4 patterns can be used sparingly. sparingly? I'm a bit iffy on this wording since it can be interpreted differently on what constitutes as "sparingly" but, okay.
3. CS should be between 2.5-3.5 I think 3-3.5 may be better. Currently, there's only one ranked salad at 2.5 CS, and it was used only as an exception of the low bpm of 87. Making the guideline be a minimum of 3 may be a bit more helpful here to set a basis.

Platter

Rules

1. Basic hyperdashes (1/1, 1/2) may begin to appear, but must not be used in conjunction with each other. Platters should serve as an introduction to hyperdashing, meaning excessively strong hypers and hypers combined with antiflow patterns must not be used. Again, this should probably be defined a bit more to be identified as a hard rule.

Guidelines

1. 1/3 and 1/4 hyperdashes may be used on their own (not in conjunction with other dashes) if the BPM is less than 120. I've always had an issue with this rule, not about the bpm, but the fact that they are nearly not allowed. I think 1/4 dashes should be able to be allowed if the pattern is easy enough where there is little to no effort in catching that type of dash. There's been times where I have to abandon an entire style of mapping simply because I'm not able to emphasize what I want in a platter, and it ends up making the song undermapped or underemphasized.
2. AR/OD should be between 7-8 I like 8.2 and 8.5 on platters ;w; but this is a guideline so it's fine I guess
3. CS should be between 3-4 as above, maybe 3.5 - 4 is best?

this is just what i noticed soooooo enjoy

Oh also please set overdose limit on AR from 9-9.8. AR10 should never be used on ctb.

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

Oh also please set overdose limit on AR from 9-9.8. AR10 should never be used on ctb.

+2 kudosu

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

Oh also please set overdose limit on AR from 9-9.8. AR10 should never be used on ctb.

AR10 should clearly be allowed on overdoses. I am totally against disallowing it per se since it limits mappers who seriously wanna try it. Depending on song, bpm, general feeling of the rhythm and many other factors AR10 can be extremely fitting on an overdose. It's only that not many people feel able to map it due to not able to testplay, but that's another story.

Anyway, I check the OP tomorrow and give my opinion on this asap.

A few of the points I wanted to put my two cents in.

Cup

1. At least 1 beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability.
   This is heavily bpm-dependent, especially for lower bpms where 1/1 may leave awkward space. This feels more of a gray area right now, perhaps you could define specifically when?

Salad

1. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 and 1/2 pattern - 1/3 and/or 1/4 patterns can be used sparingly.
   1/3 might as well be allowed in some cases as the dominant rhythm when songs are in 3/4 or 6/8 time--considering that most of the sliders would then be 1/3 or 2/3 and note distances would follow.

Rain

1. More complex hyperdashes (1/3, 1/4) may begin to appear, but no type of hyperdash can be used more than twice consecutively.
   Slightly confused what you mean by "type". Is it type as in rhythm, or type as in distance? Also, you could say what you mean by "complex" like higher distance, or more a back-forth movement?
2. CS should be between 3.5-4.5
   Extend this to CS 3.5-5? Rains with CS5 have been fine in the past, and sometimes it's used in shorter rains.

Overdose
Predicting the differing opinions on "how hard the hardest" overdoses should be, you might also add another subcategory made for especially hard maps to make sure that mappers are not confined. Of course, there are maps just made for the sake of being unreasonably difficult, but those don't really apply to these categories. Also, this way you could split up the AR so in the other "harder" category it might also include AR10, while in this category it does not (AR9-AR9.6, say). I mean, overdoses vary so much in difficulty.

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

Oh also please set overdose limit on AR from 9-9.8. AR10 should never be used on ctb.

I agree, there is no way to add 9.8+, in my opinion would be unnecessary, except if is like 350+ bpm, and that is not usual

Thanks for the feedback so far guys!

For the rule which you asked for a better definition - I think that a clear indication of "excessively strong" should be used in the case of a rule. If it was a guideline, it's different. For example, the wall to wall hyperdash rule has clear boundaries between rankable and unrankable, so, I think that should be the case here as well. If there is not any specifics, it can be really subjective and case-by-case as to when to apply this rule to beatmaps, especially if the mapper is adamant and declines constantly on their own terms that it's an acceptable dash.

@Mike: As for the spinner on Cup/Salad. I'm not sure if you guys are okay with this but Garven once proposed to separate recovery time into two different sections. If map's BPM <150 then 2~3 stanzas are more than enough (can't remember the exact values, I am not being that active). Deif is proposing only one stanza which, hey, on CtB is VERY readable. Trust me. I don't even play Rains and I feel that only one stanza is more than enough at low BPMs. Higher BPMs may be a bit different considering the amount of density the difficulty has.
As an example, the recovery time of t/423859 my Relaxing difficulty is actually okay-ish. There's no need for more recovery time. You can ask any newbie player and they all will tell you the same. Recovery time is hard to set on some scenarios.

Gonna answer to a few point.

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

A few points.


2. I feel as though combo limit of 8 is a bit too low, even for a cup. I think 10 would be best. 8 is low? Please, most mapper out there using NC on every new stanza, which is on the Cups result much lower combo count, 5-6 at most. Limiting it to 8 results that you can use NCs on every 2nd stanza without having to worry about the long combos. As a guideline, you don't need to be afraid of 9 either if you follow your previously decided rule about the NCing. For example, if you decided to add one at every 2nd stanza but at one point your combo is reaching 9-10 its still could be acceptable. Well, I don't really want to see that. :c

3. Chained dashes on salads should be a no, no matter what, in the same way chained HDashes are a no in platters. "1/2 dashes may be used in pairs" shouldn't be the case, regardless of bpm. Chained Dashes on Salads are no? Then what about the 1/4 Hypers or chained dashes on Platter? Currently the gap between Salad and Platter is really high due to the fact that many player likes to use a lot of Hyper there. There are players who can play Salads just fine but has no chance on Platters due their density. Currently the Platters are not just the introduction of Hypers but it contains high level Dashes as well while a Salad has only the most basic ones. This change was proposed by me in order to reduce this gap and the players be able to train the dashes on an earlier level than Platter and not just get the most advanced ones in the face later. There were several other option to reduce this gap but I doubt any of you agreed with the Platter limitation even more given the fact that some ppl even want to include 1/4 Hypers there. :c

4. 1/3 and 1/4 HDashes being set at the same limit on platter is strange, because these would be different distances in terms of time. It'd be best to set the limit for 1/4 at 120bpm, for example, and then 1/3 of the equivalent time. Strange, isn't it? Joke aside, the Platter is still the introduction of the Hypers and both 1/3 and 1/4 are belongs to the advanced ones. Set the same limit to both is making it easier to remember.

6. I think having 3 HDashes in a row is fine on a rain, however I would keep it lower than that. 2 is a bit too limiting imo, if the HDashes are the same timeline distance apart. This limit is only for the 1/4s and 1/3s which is there to limit the chained Hypers in streams and stuff. Using 1/2 chains should be fine.

8. I feel as though you should still keep the 1/2 limit in overdoses between spinner and note, as regardless of difficulty, these patterns aren't a determinent of skill, but instead knowledge of the map. I find it strange that it was changed later tho in the earlier time this was the same for all Difficulty. :c

10. I feel as though avoiding timing jumps, whilst not being a rule for overdoses, should be a guideline, at least. Hm, yea. They are pain anyway.

Alright, looking good, hope my points help.

Ascendance wrote:

I have small issues with a few of these. Even if they're just "guidelines", in my own experience as a new ctb mapper (even though I'm still one of the newest mappers) there are a few guidelines that mappers are still expected to follow quite rigidly, and I think a bit of them give too little wiggle room.

Deif wrote:

See the draft of the general/skinning ruleset here: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/435597

Cup

Rules

1. At least 1 beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability. I think this really needs to be specified for BPM, since there are some circumstances where this is a bit too harsh or strict for a "rule" rather than a guideline. If this is to be a rule, something really needs to be stated about the different bpms and when there can be exceptions to this rule. On lower bpm 1 beat is more than enough to react while you should take a look at the "at least" part of the sentence. This one part is the one which basically tells you that if the bpm is higher, like 320, then you can, and even you must, use bigger distance between them.

Salad

Guidelines

1. Combos should not exceed 10 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 and 1/2 pattern - 1/3 and/or 1/4 patterns can be used sparingly. sparingly? I'm a bit iffy on this wording since it can be interpreted differently on what constitutes as "sparingly" but, okay. I might be a bit rude here, but instead of just saying it sounds bad, you should provide a solution to make it better. :c

Platter

Rules

1. Basic hyperdashes (1/1, 1/2) may begin to appear, but must not be used in conjunction with each other. Platters should serve as an introduction to hyperdashing, meaning excessively strong hypers and hypers combined with antiflow patterns must not be used. Again, this should probably be defined a bit more to be identified as a hard rule. And again, you tell us its not good but giving no alternative solution.

this is just what i noticed soooooo enjoy

Thats just a few thing what came into my mind while reading the comments above.

Cup

*Dashes and hyperdashes of any kind are disallowed. This is to ensure an easy starting experience to beginner players. In order to test that out, it must be possible to achieve an SS rank on the difficulty without making use of the dash key.Agree With Hyperdashes,butI think Dashes should be categorized as Not Recommended instead of disallowed.
*At least 1 beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability.Agree ,but we should need to decide about the low BPM

Not Recommended Is like don't use it excpet if you it's very suitable part on the songs & just put it one ( Keep in mind, the map should possible to achieve an SS rank on the difficulty without making use of the dash key still applied)

that's for cup diff first. I want to give my opinion about the other diff but, i need to do some research for many example diff first.

Hello! Glad to hear about changes like this, so I would like to make some comments on it.

Deif wrote:

See the draft of the general/skinning ruleset here: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/435597

And now the difficulty-specific ruleset for Catch the Beat we want to propose after weeks of deliberation, discussion and testplays. It can also be used as a mapping guideline or just to help defining what belongs to each level of difficulty:

Cup

Rules

1. Dashes and hyperdashes of any kind are disallowed. This is to ensure an easy starting experience to beginner players. In order to test that out, it must be possible to achieve an SS rank on the difficulty without making use of the dash key. - I agree with the point about disallowing dashes and HDashes. In addition, I think the distances are also needed to be managed, like some parts can be FC'ed without dashes but it is too hard (holding a key for a long time) so I guess such scenarios can also be pointed out for clarification.
2. At least 1 beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability. - I understand that it is done to prevent players from missing because they don't know how to dash / dash properly. However this may change based on the song BPM, some of them are fast in rhythm so the fruits will fall faster. I think it is also necessary to mention about the BPM range for respective timeline distance, such as 160+ BPM = at least 2/1 distance etc. for clarification as well.

Guidelines

1. Combos should not exceed 8 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 pattern - 1/2 and/or 1/3 patterns can be used sparingly
3. AR/OD should be between 5-6
4. HP should be 4 or less
5. CS should be between 2-3

Salad

Rules

1. Hyperdashes of any kind are disallowed. This is to ensure a manageable step in difficulty for novice players. Difficulties may make use of basic (1/1, 1/2) regular dashing, although no type of dash can be used more than twice consecutively.
2. At least 1 beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability. - In my opinion, Salad is still an easier difficulty in the spread (as a progress from Cup to Platter), so usually beginners are unable to read spinners very well if they only played Cup and trying to progress. I think it is better to state that note distance need to be similar as that of Cup too, such as 160+ BPM = 2/1 timeline distance and etc.

Guidelines

1. Combos should not exceed 10 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/1 and 1/2 pattern - 1/3 and/or 1/4 patterns can be used sparingly.
3. 1/2 dashes may be used in pairs, 1/3 and 1/4 dashes on their own (not in conjunction with other dashes) if the BPM is less than 120.
4. AR/OD should be between 6-7
5. HP should be between 4-5
6. CS should be between 2.5-3.5

Platter

Rules

1. Basic hyperdashes (1/1, 1/2) may begin to appear, but must not be used in conjunction with each other. Platters should serve as an introduction to hyperdashing, meaning excessively strong hypers and hypers combined with antiflow patterns must not be used. - BPM needs to be stated, it is like some maps with lower BPM songs can include HDash at 1/4 note distance so it should be clarified.
2. Timing jumps must also not be used. - Indeed it is a must to define what is a 'timing jump', some novice mappers / modders might not know about it.
3. At least 1/2 a beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability.

Guidelines

1. Combos should not exceed 12 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/2 and/or 1/3 pattern - 1/4 and/or 1/6 patterns can be used sparingly.
3. 1/3 and 1/4 hyperdashes may be used on their own (not in conjunction with other dashes) if the BPM is less than 120.
4. AR/OD should be between 7-8
5. HP should be between 5-6
6. CS should be between 3-4

Rain

Rules

1. More complex hyperdashes (1/3, 1/4) may begin to appear, but no type of hyperdash can be used more than twice consecutively.
2. At least 1/2 a beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability.

Guidelines

1. Combos should not exceed 16 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/2 + 1/4 and/or 1/3 + 1/6 pattern - 1/8 patterns and higher can be used sparingly.
3. 1/6 and 1/8 hyperdashes may be used on their own (not in conjunction with other dashes) if the BPM is less than 120.
4. AR/OD should be between 8-9
5. HP should be between 6-7
6. CS should be between 3.5-4.5

Overdose

Rules

1. At least 1/4 a beat must be left between objects and the start of spinners to ensure readability. The spacing between the end of a spinner and the next object must be at least 1/2.

Guidelines

1. Combos should not exceed 16 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
2. Note density should follow a mostly 1/2 + 1/4 and/or 1/3 + 1/6 pattern - 1/8 patterns and higher can be used sparingly
3. 1/8 and higher hyperdashes should not be used consecutively
4. AR/OD should be between 9-10
5. HP should be between 6-7
6. CS should be between 4-5

Nice guidelines but I think the NCs should be presented in another way, such as saying NC should be placed for every stanza / noticing the changes in vocal / music rhythm / music melodies (stanza). Anyways NC is a pretty subjective topic in my opinion so it is actually fine to say it should be following the rhythm and reasonable.

@afb You can find the description of Timing Jumps in the other part of the RC (the other thread).

See the update in the OP: The deadline is on 10th April at 23:59 UTC.

I don't like idea of adding CS values to guidelines.

Many of songs works with small CS even if their are platters/rains/overdoses, manly on fast tempo maps (>170 BPM or even more. For example Crack overdose)
And this works in opposite way, very low BPM songs works very well with high CS (https://osu.ppy.sh/b/758290 this map for example)

BoberOfDarkness wrote:

I don't like idea of adding CS values to guidelines.

Many of songs works with small CS even if their are platters/rains/overdoses, manly on fast tempo maps (>170 BPM or even more. For example Crack overdose)
And this works in opposite way, very low BPM songs works very well with high CS (https://osu.ppy.sh/b/758290 this map for example)

Isn't this precisely why it's in guidelines? For the most part CS values will be around what we advise and if the mapper wants to for good reason (such as the example you provided) then there should be no problem with it.

Kurokami wrote:

@afb You can find the description of Timing Jumps in the other part of the RC (the other thread).

The only thing I could find in the other thread about Timing Jumps is

Timing jumps must not be used in direct conjunction with hyperjumps. This is because such patterns require especially precise movement and force an unreasonable restriction on accuracy required to catch them.

Which doesn't define what a Timing jump is. Now the Ranking Criteria uses a lot of terminology that isn't explained throughout though we can find descriptions of such terminology on the wiki and ingame but a Timing jump is not defined anywhere. Considering it's used in a few rules it would make sense to have some sort of description of what a Timing jump is. I'm not sure the Ranking Criteria is the place to define this however we do have a description for what an SS is in the Ranking Criteria so it wouldn't be entirely out of place.

Your map must theoretically be possible to SS. This means it must be possible to catch absolutely all fruits, including droplets.

Reading through the thread there was a few thoughts I had on some of these points.

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

A few points.

1. You've said stuff regarding beats, yet this is more dependant on bpm than anything else. I think it'd be best to set a limit (Such as the mentioned 120) to which this kinds of things mostly apply. (For example, on low bpm cups, a 1/2 beat being followed is quite common, and usually nice.

4. 1/3 and 1/4 HDashes being set at the same limit on platter is strange, because these would be different distances in terms of time. It'd be best to set the limit for 1/4 at 120bpm, for example, and then 1/3 of the equivalent time. - This is where I think things get a bit silly with beatsnap divisors and bpm. The response I've seen to this is that rules and guidelines should be simple to understand but should we be restricting mappers on what they can do just so they can easily understand the RC? It doesn't seem too like too much to add "1/3 and 1/4 hyperdashes may be used on their own (not in conjunction with other dashes) if the BPM is less than 120 for 1/4 hyperdashes and XXX for 1/3 hyperdashes."

5. Timing jumps shouldn't appear in rains either, I'd add that in. - Can agree with this. There's also no rule against this for Salads which do have dashes in them, shouldn't ever happen but I suppose rules should be consistent. Could be an idea instead to have "Timing jumps must not be used on difficulties below Overdose level" in the general criteria.

9. I feel as though the restrictions on overdoses other than that should be allowed to be bypassed (For example, the guideline against 2 1/8 HDashes in a row), if there are 2 overdoses (I know these are guidelines, but I feel that they'd be nice as rules, with the case of the first overdose following them, and the second not having to). As it is, there's nothing after Overdose level mentioned in the RC, either the rules have to be kept very relaxed or a higher tier needs adding.

10. I feel as though avoiding timing jumps, whilst not being a rule for overdoses, should be a guideline, at least. - And agree with this too, Timing jumps are not popular at all in current CtB mapping and for good reason. It's nice they're not ruled out entirely though they should be advised against.

Oh also please set overdose limit on AR from 9-9.8. AR10 should never be used on ctb. - Certainly don't agree with this one. Overdose is currently the top tier of difficulty and we know AR10 is well within the abilities of many players. Unless "Ultra" difficulty becomes a thing then nothing should be considered too difficult for an Overdose when it comes to the RC. Saying all that, it's only a guideline anyway.

For the beatmap settings guidelines, AR, OD and such, maybe they would be better phrased as "AR/OD is usually between X-X" instead of "AR/OD should be between X-X". Makes it clear that there is room to expand outside of those values.

I feel like the guidelines for difficulty settings (AR, OD etc.) should be more lenient. Don't say 'they are guidelines, so people can use different settings with a good reason' - If you go with that approach, you might as well not have any guidelines at all because people can break them anyway. Guidelines should be treated as rules in atleast 99% of the cases, so you definitely need to consider edge-cases, too.

There is no need to be more lenient with the difficulty settings. The mentioned exception by MBomb is only his thing. I doubt anyone else wants to make AR7 Overdose but if someone else wants and it actually fits nicely we might allow it. But for the lower levels I could agree with lower settings tho as osu! converted maps with AR2-3 plays just fine in CtB so to start it on 5 is just weird. I will bring this up later.

Sorcerer wrote:

Kurokami wrote:

@afb You can find the description of Timing Jumps in the other part of the RC (the other thread).

The only thing I could find in the other thread about Timing Jumps is

Timing jumps must not be used in direct conjunction with hyperjumps. This is because such patterns require especially precise movement and force an unreasonable restriction on accuracy required to catch them.

Which doesn't define what a Timing jump is. Now the Ranking Criteria uses a lot of terminology that isn't explained throughout though we can find descriptions of such terminology on the wiki and ingame but a Timing jump is not defined anywhere. Considering it's used in a few rules it would make sense to have some sort of description of what a Timing jump is. I'm not sure the Ranking Criteria is the place to define this however we do have a description for what an SS is in the Ranking Criteria so it wouldn't be entirely out of place.

Hm, its truely not there, but it will if the new criteria will be up. There is just no need to discuss that.

Formatting is a bit bad, but we can fix that. Avoid abbreviations everywhere. No OD, no AR, no SR, etc.






Looks good so far, I'd like to have a few things more.

EDIT: Re timing jump: The definition is hell-ass complicated and the term sucks. You must change that. A Timing Jump is basically a pair of objects that requires you to catch Object 1 with the one edge of the catcher in order to successfully be able to catch the Object 2 with the other edge of the catcher. The word "timing jump" never implies that. It is rather a "borderline catch". The jump is not even the issue here. the issue in this pattern is the position of the catcher when it catches Object 1. Some naming like "Borderline Catch" or "Borderline Dash" would make way more sense. Maybe someone else is able to summarize the concept of "a pair of object, that almost turns into a hyperdash, but doesn't yet." in one catchy word. Timing Jump is not doing the job. And the definition you screenshotted doesn't do that enough, either.

EDIT #2: I have to agree with Desperate-kun. In Rain and Overdose, at least the Approach Rate settings must be more lenient. Not everything should/must be AR9 or 10. This is narrow-minded and blocks people breaking out of the "speed contest" meta. There are many ways of making CtB maps interesting. Catching dense fruits with slow fall speed may be one of these things that enhance variety in mapping. I see no objectively good reason to limit it to AR9-10, just because the current meta dictates (as in: because converts do so, too). Name me one good reason apart of "it reads bad at AR8 overally" that makes you feel like you have to tell mappers that "mapping AR9-10 in Rains and Overdoses is a must, unless you can explain it VERY GOOD". You want the guidelines to apply for 98% of all cases, where violations only happen on exception. They way these are constructed right now is implying that these are just "tips in how to set the diff settings". Maybe reconsider on how you want to set this up.

Alternatively you can work out the conditions of what Approach Rate/Circle Size being used where. I can see AR8 or AR7.5 Rains be a thing, if the map has fulfilled appropirate conditions for it. You want people to believe that they do not even want to try violating these guidelines, unless they really have to. And for that mindset, these are a bit too rigid right now.

@Loctav Answering to your second edit. Obviously whenever you map an Extra difficulty level you try to use as many instrument as possible from the song, am I right? Which means there are only a few 1/2 and many 1/4 or even 1/8 (depending on the song of course). Lowering the Approach Rate on such a note density will make the whole map being cramped, the effect is kinda similar when you try to play with Easy mod on Big Black or Image Material. It becomes unreadable as hell. Do not misunderstand me, I'm a big fan of the slower maps, like Ravers Fantasy (Nightcore Mix) and other old one but if you take a look at Big Black and those you will probably notice the difference right away (even in Catch the Beat).

If there is a way to allow slower Approach Rate to be playable on Extra levels, I'm up to the change. Meanwhile I do agree with the AR7.5 Rains and stuff only.

Answering to another one:

Loctav wrote:

At least 1/2 a beat must be left between objects and the start and end of spinners to ensure readability. tbh I never understood the readability problem in the higher diffs ever since spinner fruits have own sprites... why is it still a problem apart of it being a tad uncomfortable? why not 1/4? everything above 1/4 I could understand somehow... maybe someone cares to explain it to me, because I missed out the times where this became a thing. Because 1/4 already blends into the start and end of the spinner which makes you to actually be unable to catch the first few object of the spinner and dramatically increases to chance to miss the first note at the end depends on how your chosen path for the spinner. Basically limiting your movement. Even 1/2 could blend into it on higher bpm actually. :C

Also, I wondered about the name of "Timing Jumps" to change it "Edge Jumps" or which might speaks already but no one answered to my suggestion. :c Well, it might sounds too bad.

@Loctav As far as I know, this is the first time I hear timing jumps btw, we call them pixel jumps because they have to be spacing perfect.

The following is my opinion as a player and as an aspring mapper.

Rain:

but no type of hyperdash can be used more than twice consecutively.

That is just silly, unnecessary, and outright stupid. Cups pave the way to salads, which in turn do so for platters, and so on. Rains are the technical gateway to anyone aspiring to ever play overdoses. In rains you learn the bases of complex and continuous movements. By limiting the amount of hyperdashes you can put in a rain, you limit the amount of technique a mapper can teach a player. Simple as that. Instead of outright banning more than 2 continuous hyperdashes you should just discourage it stating that continous hyperdashes are considered a higher difficulty and should be saved for overdoses.

Overdose
To be honest this is where things get controversial. But as I discussed with Vincs on stream yesterday when talking about the ranking system. Part of the reason why things aren't getting ranked is because of a mindset in the playerbase that "things don't look rankable".
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/940092 If you are a high skilled player take a look at that map.
It has a small circle size and high approach rate. If I look at it I'd say this shit is never gonna get ranked. But if I really analyze it, there's simply nothing wrong with it. It might be gimicky by trying to mess up your reading with weird settings, but it plays perfectly well. It is fun, it is stamina killing, and it is complex in terms of movement and timings. It is everything an overdose needs to be, and it is everything that we don't think overdoses are.

It's pretty obvious that a good part of the reason why things aren't getting ranked is because we are simply not open minded enough to accept that overdoses can be more than what we think they currently are.

Guidelines

◾Combos should not exceed 16 objects including slider tails and repeats. Spinners are an exception.
◾Note density should follow a mostly 1/2 + 1/4 and/or 1/3 + 1/6 pattern - 1/8 patterns and higher can be used sparingly
◾1/8 and higher hyperdashes should not be used consecutively
◾AR/OD should be between 9-10
◾HP should be between 6-7
◾CS should be between 4-5

Guidelines should be treated as rules in atleast 99% of the cases, so you definitely need to consider edge-cases, too.

If these are going to be guidelines, then they should be considered guidelines. Not rules that are to be followed. Because the only thing we are doing as a community by following these guidelines word by word would be kill the creativity of mappers. And God knows how much lack of creativity there was in a certain 7.4 star map that just got ranked yesterday.

Thank you for taking the time to read my concerns,
-Steve

jeubach wrote:

If these are going to be guidelines, then they should be considered guidelines. Not rules that are to be followed. Because the only thing we are doing as a community by following these guidelines word by word would be kill the creativity of mappers. And God knows how much lack of creativity there was in a certain 7.4 star map that just got ranked yesterday.

Thank you for taking the time to read my concerns,
-Steve

Hi Steve, I am Wojtek who cares

I think that map you are talking about creativity was replaced with rank-ability just to rank it.

In my opinion games should grow the people creativity.

jeubach wrote:

Rain:
Quote:
but no type of hyperdash can be used more than twice consecutively.

That is just silly, unnecessary, and outright stupid. Cups pave the way to salads, which in turn do so for platters, and so on. Rains are the technical gateway to anyone aspiring to ever play overdoses. In rains you learn the bases of complex and continuous movements. By limiting the amount of hyperdashes you can put in a rain, you limit the amount of technique a mapper can teach a player. Simple as that. Instead of outright banning more than 2 continuous hyperdashes you should just discourage it stating that continous hyperdashes are considered a higher difficulty and should be saved for overdoses.

Platters serve as an introduction to hyperdashes, meaning they should be simple and occur infrequently.Overdoses may contain harsher, stronger and more antiflowing hypers, as well as hypers used repeatedly. In order to create a sensible spread in difficulty from Platter to Overdose, there must be an intermediate usage of hyperdashes in Rain diffs, which is what this seeks to achieve. If you were a typical Platter player and were then thrust into Rain diffs flooded with back-to-back hdashes, you'd struggle to adapt and complain of an unfair and unexpected difficulty spike. You even mentioned this in your argument above. In my opinion, this is something that is very necessary to create a challenging but manageable step-up in difficulty, and "merely" "discouraging" it will not stop people from doing it.

Also, please refrain from calling other people's comments and contributions "stupid" - it's demeaning, rude and often results in people failing to take the remainder of your post seriously. Expressing that you don't agree with it and explaining why is enough.

Overdose
To be honest this is where things get controversial. But as I discussed with Vincs on stream yesterday when talking about the ranking system. Part of the reason why things aren't getting ranked is because of a mindset in the playerbase that "things don't look rankable".
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/940092 If you are a high skilled player take a look at that map.
It has a small circle size and high approach rate. If I look at it I'd say this shit is never gonna get ranked. But if I really analyze it, there's simply nothing wrong with it. It might be gimicky by trying to mess up your reading with weird settings, but it plays perfectly well. It is fun, it is stamina killing, and it is complex in terms of movement and timings. It is everything an overdose needs to be, and it is everything that we don't think overdoses are.

It's pretty obvious that a good part of the reason why things aren't getting ranked is because we are simply not open minded enough to accept that overdoses can be more than what we think they currently are.

Your example is somewhat flawed, since without even playing the map, by definition it's completely unrankable as it uses CS0, which requires editing of the .osu file to achieve. It would also of course require a full spread as it is too short to qualify for approval. At no point in the modding process does any modder worth their salt judge a map based purely on the difficulty settings, star rating, etc. There is no immediate stigma of something being "unrankable" that is not entirely justified by objective metrics. It's thoughts like this that propagate an "us versus them" culture between modders and players that have led us to this point in the first place.

If these are going to be guidelines, then they should be considered guidelines. Not rules that are to be followed. Because the only thing we are doing as a community by following these guidelines word by word would be kill the creativity of mappers. And God knows how much lack of creativity there was in a certain 7.4 star map that just got ranked yesterday.

Guidelines should be followed in nearly all cases, broken only in exceptional circumstances, rather than a "I feel like doing something else so I will". This has always been the case. The job of the ranking criteria is not to kill creativity, but to direct that creativity in a positive direction that represents what players want to see in the game, whilst still working within a sensible set of boundaries. If you want to make wacky, complex or even game-breaking maps, that's fine - just keep them away from the ranked section. Your last comment is a loaded one, made for no discernible reason other than to attack the mapper in question and initiate drama. This is a place for serious discussion, so please take such comments elsewhere.

I agree that guideline difficulty settings need to be expanded to account for more than acceptable variety in styles, and some wording can be clarified and improved. I can try to find some things that work better in a few days after I come back from holiday if necessary.

jeubach wrote:

If these are going to be guidelines, then they should be considered guidelines. Not rules that are to be followed. Because the only thing we are doing as a community by following these guidelines word by word would be kill the creativity of mappers.

Or we word the guidelines in a way that allows creativity while still following them, where we can.

Thanks everybody for the recieved feedback. We'll check every suggestion and deliberate in a short period of time if the changes are viable or not. Please wait a few days until we've worked out everything appropriately!

After some meetings with the rest of the members of the Criteria Council and some deliberation, we came up with some updates on the draft of the difficulty specific ruleset. Check out the OP for them:

1. Greater leniency for difficulty settings in all difficulties
2. Abbreviations removed in difficulty settings, corrected usage of beats with bars
3. Clarified allowed 1/3 and 1/4 usage in Salads
4. Added regulations with borderline dashes in higher difficulties
5. Made the note-spinner and the spinner-note distance BPM-dependant in all difficulties
6. Some more I probably forgot about!

As a reminder: The thread will be locked for further deliberation on the 8th May at 23:59 UTC. Make sure to post your opinion before that date!

Very good work here


Imo the gap between Salads and Platters is pretty huge due to this unwritten rule affecting so many mapsets from the begining.

I never took the time to make a Salad so I don't have material to illustrate what i'm thinking about but, I have a very clear idea of how hyperdashes should be mapped on Salads:
First you need to use them on the very epic moment of the song (That means 1 or 2 per Salad, it'll work like the kiai times in standard).
Second you need to clear the path for the player, minimum movement allowed on the objects before and after the hyperdash, so the player can fully concentrate on catching the hyperdash.
Third, this doesn't means that hyperdashes are required in Salads, it just means that if the song offers the possibility to map one or two then it should be possible.

The point is to create an epic pic for the player for big big sensations (wee). Let's take his place for a second, he'll be very happy when he'll catch it plus he'll know this object exist in the game and know how they works. Then when he'll move to Platter he'll be more confident with the huge amount (for him) of hypers we can find there.

I think this is a real plus in term of fun, it'll allow more creativity for the mapper and will make a better spread by reducing the difficulty gap between Salads and Platters.

What do you think ?

Thank you for your feedback Drafura. We'll check your suggestion and deliberate in a short period of time if the changes are viable or not.

After the last meeting with the rest of the members, these are the changes that were took into consideration and were approved. Check out the OP for them:

1. Borderline Dashes were renamed to "Edge Dashes" where necessary.

The gap between Salad-Platter can be reduced by not adding so many hyperdashes on Platter difficulties, since those kind of difficulties are supposed to introduce this element. The same happens to Salads, which should be used just to introduce dashes.

As a reminder: This will be the last 2-week period to recieve feedback from the community. After locking the thread on the 29th May at 23:59 UTC the ruleset will be discussed one more time with the last recieved comments and ammended by the osu! staff afterwards.

Same as in the general ruleset, it's safe to conclude that the community approved this proposal. Nice job everybody!

"Combos should not exceed 16 objects including slider tails and repeats."
If i have a slider that goes to 20 I need to cut it in half?

CelegaS wrote:

"Combos should not exceed 16 objects including slider tails and repeats."
If i have a slider that goes to 20 I need to cut it in half?

Combos are allowed to exceed it, you should just try not to, I believe a stack like that would be allowed.

Just a quick thing, I don't think edge dashes should be allowed at all in rains, either, I think they should be strictly overdose (and even then, only used with caution).

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

Just a quick thing, I don't think edge dashes should be allowed at all in rains, either, I think they should be strictly overdose (and even then, only used with caution).

It's the same thing you brought up weeks ago:

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

5. Timing jumps shouldn't appear in rains either, I'd add that in.

Anyway, we considered it in the past meetings. They are allowed to be used, but they'll be regulated with the modding process and (hopefully) the common sense of the modders. It was added in the criteria, so that they could be introduced in a Rain and eventually combined with other dashes in an Overdose.

I've looked over these and I'm confident these can be amended so you have my okay on this.

As of today, this set of rules counts as amended. As of the big amount of changes, only beatmaps submitted past this amendment are going under this new set of rules. Every beatmap submitted prior this amendment will get treated and handled under the previous set of rules.

This legacy regulation expires in 6 months from today on. Everything that is not bubbled within the next 6 months will also be treated under the new ruleset then.