Hello everybody, ztrot here! I have noticed as of late that there has been a serious issue in the osu!mania community in terms of activity on both the BN and QAT side. I feel that part of this has to deal with the strict entry level that we put on the tests. Given the state of the osu!mania modding community, there are only two QAT that I can think of, and the BNs are in the very low single or double digits (1-10). This isn't to say that modding isn't taking part in the mania community, but the jump to being a BN seems a bit out of reach for your average mania modder. Since we are moving forward, we want the community to be the core of the modding and mapping system. Then that being said, I do have some ideas I would like to discuss.

My first idea is to re-evaluate the tests and give those who took the osu!mania specific test a shot or a potential 30 day period at being a BN. I know that some people will say throwing more people onto it will not fix the problem, but given the size of the team, I think this is exactly what needs to be done. I have talked over a few things with some of the active members of the modding discord about users they felt would be suited and some of them may have taken the test and some not. We need to stimulate the mania community, and this is the best idea that I have at the moment.

I am open and willing to listen to any suggestions on how we can both improve and grow the osu!mania modding force, and I hope to work with members of the mania community who are passionate about seeing their game mode thrive. Feel free to discuss in this thread.

And have a wonderful day!

Love, ztrot

As we discussed on other places, a re-evaluation will not have the desired effect. Instead of throwing more people in to short-term patch issues, we rather want to educate current modders in osu!mania how to mod properly and to show them the ropes of osu!'s very own environment. There have been several lacks in basic knowledge (e.g. that you can not use red lines to alter the scroll speed/to perform gimmicks) or not detecting basic map flaws (drastic SV changes in Normals have not been seen).

If anything, there needs to be the initiative to raise the capabilties of modders, that do not just mod:

move 1
delete 3
add 45
add clap
^
^

And especially nuking the mentality that "DIS MY STYLE" is a valid statement and make people learn how to elaborate their points properly.

I believe there are only two active mania BNs right now, Freerum and -Kamikaze-

Loctav wrote:

And especially nuking the mentality that "DIS MY STYLE" is a valid statement and make people learn how to elaborate their points properly.

haha welcome to china


I wouldn't say that basically handing out free 30 day BN trials is a good idea, as couple of BNs arent very good at all, even after passing the test. Also, I'm just going to say this anyways despite being redundant, the "DIS MY STYLE" mentality is stupid. Any modder, mapper, or BN that supports this mentality needs to understand how maps should be ranked with a decently positive response from the community, not just the mapper.

Yes pls. O!m really needs more active BNs as of now there's a lot of mania mappers now.

I wouldn't call them free but after looking over the input it does seem the score gap was quite large from the highest failing person. I was talking with some mania guys about what things they look for when modding I still have a lot to learn about the mode but even i can see the need to fix this issue asap, things like getting clear rules and what is seen as invalid agreed upon with the masses. I hope to see results for these things soon.

BMS and Stepmania players teach you how to mapping

Nivrad00 wrote:

I believe there are only two active mania BNs right now, Freerum and -Kamikaze-

*cough cough*

And i will ready for that.

Although this isn't particularly about BN's, I want to point out that become a mania modder is very difficult in the beginning. There aren't a lot of guides for modding specific to mania, and so it's hard to know exactly what to do or what the editor is capable of doing.
edit: also the current mapping meta is very conflicting, as there is a clash of BMS, o2jam, stepmania, etc, and people who are new to VSRG

if this thing is really urgent problem, how about bring back old BNs? ofcourse they should pass the test that staff give. because i believe old BNs have capable skill and already experience ranking map sections. i'm just saying because i think this is fastest way to sort people you believe capable to solve this problem
edit: the repromoted-BNs also can be trial BN as ztrot's idea

Rizqy wrote:

if this thing is really urgent problem, how about bring back old BNs? ofcourse they should pass the test that staff give. because i believe old BNs have capable skill and already experience ranking map sections. i'm just saying because i think this is fastest way to sort people you believe capable to solve this problem
edit: the repromoted-BNs also can be trial BN as ztrot's idea

The problem is that nearly all of former BNs are not in the team because of inactivity which was caused by various things. Mostly though I've saw people just simply get tired of being spammed with requests and such. And bringing them back will not solve the inactivity issues.

Spy wrote:

BMS and Stepmania players teach you how to mapping

I'd rather tap arrows to be honest mate

EDIT: Oh fuck KK hi. Too lazy to edit my post below, just pretend your mentioned alongside Kami/Feerum.

I guess I can dump a small sphiel here.

As far as I can tell, other than Kami/Feerum, most modders/BNs currently basically fall under a few categories (I could name names, but I won't):
1. Doesn't want to do BN work anymore due to various reasons.
2. Doesn't have the modding capabilities to actually pass the BN test.
3. Doesn't have the time to be bothered with being a BN.

Point 1 is usually due to some set of personal reasons, typically not directly related to osu!, so there's not much that we can say about this point.

Point 2 was previously mentioned by Loctav, and for this point, I agree that (from what I can tell) based on the fact that basics are being missed out on, it would do better to instead try to help the mania community just become better at modding, in general. I believe this is what the initial goal of the MMT was (don't quote me on this), but this also kinda ties into...

Point 3. People don't have/don't want to invest the time into doing this. Currently, Kami/Feerum are being swamped with requests, and anybody new who would become a BN would be equally swamped. And some people can't be arsed to deal with that. This issue is particularly bad, as it results in a positive feedback loop, where due to the lack of BNs, less people would want to become BNs, which leads to lack of BNs....

I am almost certain that the whole point of having the BN test was designed to address the second category of people I mentioned above. I have no clue how hard said test is (having never seen it myself), but by simply having this test, it would hopefully encourage people to improve their modding skills in an effort to actually pass this. Since there has only been 1 round of BN apps so far, I have no clue what the effect of having this test here is now (nor have I had time to actually pay attention to the modding scene.) Hopefully, when apps open up again, if some people reapply and get a higher score (or hopefully even pass!), that would show that this helps at least.

In order to address the third point, it is worth noting how there previously was a fairly high activity requirement before one could apply to be a BN (admittedly, this was also before the test was introduced). If you want to possible let even more people attempt the BN test, you could consider lowering the required activity even more than it currently is (though it is already pretty low). This could potentially lead to a bunch more BNs joining, though it also puts more work on whoever is grading the tests, which might also not be fine.

Anyways, it's pretty late, latter half of this might be slightly incoherent. Sorry about that.

-Kamikaze- wrote:

The problem is that nearly all of former BNs are not in the team because of inactivity which was caused by various things. Mostly though I've saw people just simply get tired of being spammed with requests and such. And bringing them back will not solve the inactivity issues.

yes i agree, so that i said just ask the former they would to re-join or no first. their past inactivity not only because tired of being spammed but also because irl issues, so when they have time again to go back working BN job but unfortunately the are already kicked.

Hi!
I'm going to treat this thread as my personal blog.
I really hope you guys don't mind.
I'm going to possibly burn my account by being passive-agressive.

ztrot wrote:

I wouldn't call them free but after looking over the input it does seem the score gap was quite large from the highest failing person. I was talking with some mania guys about what things they look for when modding I still have a lot to learn about the mode but even i can see the need to fix this issue asap, things like getting clear rules and what is seen as invalid agreed upon with the masses. I hope to see results for these things soon.

Hi ztrot. Let me explain - osu!mania mappers and players come from several sources. The BMS community, the Stepmania community, the myo2 community, to name a few. Some others are veterans of other games, including the ridiculously ancient canmusic!

The mechanics of the game tends to favour o2jam because of the interpretation of LNs - and even then, not so much (this one is the best represented as far as I understand!)

These disagreements stem from the fact that people have different ideas of what makes a good chart. I'd say that a lot of people are just plain ignorant and try and yell the loudest they can.
Like me!

Spy wrote:

BMS and Stepmania players teach you how to mapping

Hi spy. Sorry that you're still in pain about things that happened ages ago and you can't let go.
Please, I recommend you to be the bigger man and stop.

***

So, I've got some personal experiences. They've built my expectations with respect to what to expect from doing modding, and what to expect when getting modding.

First of all, modding is usually motivated by the desire to rank a map.
Even if the finality to modding is, ideally, improving your map, it often is merely just means to an end.
To be fair, since people in my experience in charge of looking at maps usually look at an amount of mods or star power and are disallowed from ranking things that don't have
much time rotting on the sidelines because other people are salty that their own maps are not being looked at, often, you just want short mods that don't really
say a whole lot to fill this quota. By this, I believe we're led to want to give or get short, very precise mods of what to change to pretend we're making progress.

I know people though - someone by this point is probably saying "But I care about the mods I get being quality™!"
Sure, I believe you. But haven't you ever wanted to just get mods? Anything, regardless of quality, for the sake of getting to a quota?

Okay, I digress. What I would like to say about this is that, often, maps that require very little changes to be good often suffer from being graveyarded.
On the other hand, maps with many small mistakes or otherwise massive holes get more mods (since it's way easier to mod anyway!) of varying quality.
If you bring anything particularily personal at me regarding this please reconsider what you're doing.


BNs. I'm quite sorry to say that they'd be saturated if they're too few, and mappers are too many. Increasing the number will probably increase the number of beatmaps ranked.
Consider that there is no guarantee to their quality - we've seen bad maps get ranked only because of persistance and filling the numbers requested.

Now, I do know there's no perfect system. Bear with me - this is the point. There is no perfect system for everything ever related to human beings.

We agree, do we?

From this perspective, I believe the flaws I've presented (that are mostly emergent properties of the current system! Humans, I swear.) are quite related to the lack of activity on the modding side of things.

The low expectations for the mods you want to get, and the encouragement to spam many mods that are of some, but with not any particular, quality™ for the charter
quickly leads to burnout for people who want to invest their time on both better maps and better modding.

Whoa. Okay, that sounds like a big leap in logic. Read again if you're overwhelmed, please.

Look, if lazy mods are encouraged by the kudosu system, and modding of any kind is desired by the mappers that just want to get a map ranked, well, you should get what I mean.

***

Loctav wrote:

As we discussed on other places, a re-evaluation will not have the desired effect. Instead of throwing more people in to short-term patch issues, we rather want to educate current modders in osu!mania how to mod properly and to show them the ropes of osu!'s very own environment. There have been several lacks in basic knowledge (e.g. that you can not use red lines to alter the scroll speed/to perform gimmicks) or not detecting basic map flaws (drastic SV changes in Normals have not been seen).

If anything, there needs to be the initiative to raise the capabilties of modders, that do not just mod:

move 1
delete 3
add 45
add clap
^
^

And especially nuking the mentality that "DIS MY STYLE" is a valid statement and make people learn how to elaborate their points properly.

Dear Loctav. I wholeheartedly agree with your premise: there needs to be the initiative to raise the capabilities of modders. And if I made my point correctly, most of you should agree that you don't want to force beginners into BN positions just because they happen to be active.

What you want is committed people, of course. Pros of really understanding the game, on either artistical or technical merit.

***

I know "artistical" is a big red fat alarm of "PRETENTIOUS FUCKFACE IGNORE THIS PERSON" on the grounds of many people claiming their shitty maps "artistic" because of some sort of notion of a non-existing style.
But you guys know what I mean - do you? I mean the charts that for some reason are not technical, but still play hella good. Dumps, or something related to effects (like the ability to pull off a reverse measure line trick!) and such.
The "state of the art" guys. Those guys developing new ideas, with some good technical people guiding their decisions of what works and doesn't.

With that out of the way so you know what I'm talking about...

People without any titles have their opinions often overlooked when modding, in spite of how much respect they get from whoever. It's fine though, we're all human. We're free to do whatever.
But, this is the other kind of burnout that leads to many people not even pursuing modding-related titles. Can we fix it? Probably not, but it's good to mention.


I do not believe a test is the way to go. Even if you put trustworthy people in charge of it, it's going to lead to biasing towards certain forms.
I mean, if you give a group the ability to make a test, they'll put in what they know, what they feel about things (Imagine Spy putting his biases into it and having what he says be the correct answer, for instance.) Any further people that get in and get the power to change this will probably already been skewed by this test.
I don't think this is a good long-term solution.

I wish I could be more constructive about it, but I did say this was just a blog post.

One of the major problems that I see is that

- People that want to be BNs aren't qualified to be BNs
- People that are qualified to be BNs have no interest in being BNs

I guess we either teach people on how to mod like a BN or offer bonuses for being a BN because there's not that much of a reward for becoming a BN.

Edit: everyone else wrote like 12,000 words I feel ashamed

Agka wrote:

I do not believe a test is the way to go. Even if you put trustworthy people in charge of it, it's going to lead to biasing towards certain forms.
I mean, if you give a group the ability to make a test, they'll put in what they know, what they feel about things (Imagine Spy putting his biases into it and having what he says be the correct answer, for instance.) Any further people that get in and get the power to change this will probably already been skewed by this test.
I don't think this is a good long-term solution.

Quoting this for emphasis. This is potentially one of the most important points agka made in that post, and I implore everyone to read this critically and consider what exactly he's saying.

I would also like to add that style can be a legitimate reason to deny mods, or to defend pattern choices. the issue is that most mappers don't seem to understand what style really truly is. It's not just a catch-all reason for why you decided to put notes in one place. Style is about a consistent approach to mapping within a particular difficulty or mapset, which informs your pattern choices throughout the entire map. Did I mention consistency? Because that's how to tell the difference between a pattern based on a stylistic choice vs someone trying to justify their choice by using that word.

I am one of those people that think current methods of modding in mania don't really contribute to raising the quality of the chart.
There is a very critical flaw in modding maps: it's mostly looking at specific sections of the chart and not the whole chart itself.
The suggestions that people give in a mod are localized to certain timestamps, and this leads to modders writing things like "move to 4, ctrl+H for comfortability, delete note, etc"

Suggestions to fix technical errors are fine; however, localized suggestions do not help much in quality.

What mania modders need to learn is how to see a map holistically. They need to see the overall theme, the intentions of the mapper, and try to give feedback around that.

Here's a good example: p/4984354/
In this 'mod', Shoegazer gives extensive reasons on why certain patterns in the chart are not very suited for the beatmap, and gives feedback on the overall layering of the chart. Halogen's comment before that does that well, too. He does not use timestamps, but his comment definitely guides the map to the right direction.

I don't have much time to write, so I'll just end here for now.

I just want to mention that in regards to osu!mania BNs situation, actually the only really active BN right now is Feerum. I might've said in some chats that I'm active at some point, but truth be told, I'm doing just as much (if not less) as those who are treated as being semi-active/inactive. Just waned to put it out there, read Agka's post for more relevant opinions.

iJinjin wrote:

Here's a good example: p/4984354/

Quote for truth. We need more mods like those.

I want to throw my support behind agka, jinjin, and anyone else who posted in this thread. I sincerely hope modding and bn checks in the future will become more purposeful and effective, and that the system will be able to reconcile styles from different games (FtB represent)

But I believe the most pressing issue, an emergency even, is that there is 1 BN for dozens (hundreds?) of mappers. I'm tired of pouring hours of effort into maps with no chance of it getting out to the community. In the future I hope all our BNs are proficient and mindful, but right now I just want more BNs.

I think, one of the main reasons BNs don't want to be BNs anymore is due to the sheer amount of work they have to cope with, which is also one of the main reasons people don't want to become BNs in the first place. I - for example - would love to help with the ranking process of osu!mania maps, but I don't have nearly enough time to be a BN, so here's my idea;

Increase the number of BNs - as ztrot stated, maybe by giving out "30-day-trials" or something along that line.
That will reduce the amount of work for the currently active BNs, making the task more fun for them again.
That might also increase the amount of people who want to actually become one, since they don't feel like it's an overwhelming task anymore.

It would also help if we would set a time limit for bubbled maps. Like, we have a 7-day period until qualified maps get ranked, which forces QAT members to actively check them; why not do the same for bubbled maps?
For example, a map stays bubbled for 30 days. During that time period, one of the mode-specific BNs HAS to check it, if noone does, all the BNs get some sort of punishment, I don't know.
I think, the QAT-Team is doing an excellent job in all gamemodes, so why not apply a similar concept to the BN-Team aswell.

Disclaimer: I'm not a beatmap nominator, I don't have amazing amounts of insight into the ranking process and some of the stuff I said here might be complete bullshit. If there's anything wrong; please correct me!

iJinjin wrote:

Here's a good example: p/4984354/
In this 'mod', Shoegazer gives extensive reasons on why certain patterns in the chart are not very suited for the beatmap, and gives feedback on the overall layering of the chart. Halogen's comment before that does that well, too. He does not use timestamps, but his comment definitely guides the map to the right direction.

though something like this happens rarely, only to some maps which were going to "break the limit" and people got it's attention. also, less people are capable of giving such an effort.

we can actually teach people about how to mod really properly subjectively. so less people do mod like how loctav said. but the real problem is if they want to be taught. some are really greedy and think that they are doing it really perfectly. maybe only people who are starting want to

i was really scared to post this reply lmao. i dont think i belong here

- Bad Apple - wrote:

if noone does, all the BNs get some sort of punishment, I don't know.
I think, the QAT-Team is doing an excellent job in all gamemodes, so why not apply a similar concept to the BN-Team aswell.

Disclaimer: I'm not a beatmap nominator, I don't have amazing amounts of insight into the ranking process and some of the stuff I said here might be complete bullshit. If there's anything wrong; please correct me!

There's no need to add more punishment for the BNs since they are doing their jobs to Nominate maps to ranking unless they don't do their jobs as a BN and slack off, well being kick out of BNG is the punishment (Lack of BN score/quota)

AncuL wrote:

we can actually teach people about how to mod really properly subjectively. so less people do mod like how loctav said. but the real problem is if they want to be taught. some are really greedy and think that they are doing it really perfectly. maybe only people who are starting want to

i was really scared to post this reply lmao. i dont think i belong here

Another thing is that like said before is because of the Kudosu system. They do MOD just like Loctav said because they want to finish it fast then get Kudosu profit, some don't even care about other's maps even the quality itself they only want Kudosu (count) for fame or some sort (Something like "Hey this guy has a lot of Kudosu he is pro in Modding/Mapping"). I don't intend to offend someone just my opinion.

I highly agree on what iJinjin said^^.

There are plenty of people who have the capabilities of giving reinforced unbiased mods, but these people don't particularly want to flesh it out because they're not into grinding kudosu.
I think lowering the necessities to allow people who are proven to be not faulty would share a workload and make things a lot more casual and less discouraging. People who are capable will happily do the job given the title but as of now they're fairly unknown so the reward for doing anything, in their point of view, almost seems out of reach.

I hope what I'm saying makes sense lol

People are really touchy about modding.

I don't necessarily agree with AncuL's point about super-detailed mods only being put in place when limits are being contended with (and please, don't be afraid to post, this affects you too!), but I do agree with the fact that we need to identify more effective ways of modding maps. Those who are modding need to be point-blank about why they're making suggestions. Saying something like "move to 3" is completely useless in terms of modding, because a player is being told to do something without any sort of reasoning behind why they're doing it.

Modding should of course be exhaustive as exhaustive as possible on an objective level: anything that is noticeably incorrect about synchronization and/or timing of notes within a beatmap should be pointed out immediately and fixed without any sort of questioning - anyone arguing with the placement of rhythms/timing structure for something that is blatantly incorrect is an indicator of someone who is simply too stubborn to go through the process.

However, it's going to be up to both sides of the community, staff and submitters, to determine when situations of intersubjectivity need to be assessed. This is where playability, layering, pitch relevance, accenting, etc. all come into play: mappers need to eloquently explain what they are trying to do with regards to the song in play so that nominators can not only understand what is going on, but also determine whether or not it is subjectively acceptable given that the content being worked on has the intent of being played in public eye.

With regards to earlier points, activity is a very severe issue here that is difficult to contend with. It goes without saying that it's going to require breaking the current regulations of getting qualified individuals in, because staffing is so low -- there are people that are capable of doing the job, but do not want have to go jumping through hoops to assist.

Well, if you'd like more maps and quality (i need the tm thing) maps ranked, one direct way to increase that is that you lower the criterion of BN qualification/get more BNs someway or you encourage and enhance the benefits of being a BN. Personally would go for the former since the latter happened already so i don't see a high chance of that happening.

Was thinking that BNs lack motivation mostly due to:
- Not sure if this is even rankable
- The song is boring as hell
- Chart is boring as hell
- (do i really have to check hitsounds)

Ignoring the first point which will probably never be resolved, I believe that having more BNs will allow the a larger variety of maps that they can choose (a paradox!). This is mainly due to maps being "forced" to certain BNs and BNs can't really do much about it when pretty much all other BNs already rejected it, you're the last hope and it's not even a map you'd really love to invest your time into (eg. I don't really like TV-Size :c), having a larger BN size would allow an easier time picking and choosing what maps that the BN should take, with this, this also allows the passing of the responsibility of a beatmap to another if you fucked up and picked something you actually don't really even want to mod.

Well of course there has been a problem somewhere that lead to BN inactivity because everyone just burntout and also too many BNs to handle (?) when there was a large BN population and this also requires more QATs in which i don't think it's a huge problem to get more.
--

Don't think we should be having a "standard" this high for BNs, I do and heavily, firmly believe that an active BN, despite them still getting used to the system trumps the less active BN who knows it all, I could list a few examples but this might offend people so i would rather not.

People learn best from their mistakes, let them have a taste of what BNs is like then we can say if he/she is worth it being a BN
--

In conclusion I support ztrot's idea, the experience and observing if one learns from their mistakes is the best test.

Might as well give my opinion on this matter, this is strictly my experience with the modding / ranking team.

I've been making charts for about 8 months now, and the lack of BN's is utterly frustrating. Ranking a mapset is almost impossible if you don't know the right people or are well known in the charting community. Even getting mods for your charts is hard, since many people give a) Don't seem to want to do a regular mod b) When they accept a M4M will give you a shitty mod or c) Never return the M4M favor. Furthermore, I get the feeling that many people in the community have no clue how to mod properly, and I think this might be the core problem. I think giving the community proper guidelines on how to mod charts will improve the overall quality of mods and therefore inspire more people to get their charts ranked (and hopefully get people motivated to try to join the BN team). Even getting a new branch of staff designed to train people into becoming BN's could work, tutoring them on what is and what isn't a good mod.

Getting a BN position is quite hard as well, I want to become a BN as well (mostly because the BN staff is lacking) but the requirements are so high, that I'm uncertain if I'm able to become a BN within a year.

I might be just ranting here, but honestly, I think the problem lies in the fact people not knowing how to properly mod.
Also, sign me up for that 30-day BN trail please!;)

Evening wrote:

People learn best from their mistakes, let them have a taste of what BNs is like then we can say if he/she is worth it being a BN
--

In conclusion I support ztrot's idea, the experience and observing if one learns from their mistakes is the best test.

I somewhat agree.

Hello!

I also would like to say something to the current state of osu!mania Modding and the idea's we talked yesterday about in discord.

ztrot wrote:

My first idea is to re-evaluate the tests and give those who took the osu!mania specific test a shot or a potential 30 day period at being a BN. I know that some people will say throwing more people onto it will not fix the problem, but given the size of the team, I think this is exactly what needs to be done.

I totally agree in this Point! Many Modder failed the test due to bits and bobs and sloppy mistakes. These people should get at least the chance! to show what they can, for this would be the "30 Day trial" really good.
I also would like to say, should we really get some "Trial BN's": They are NOT alone! For sure, we don't have a lot of Mania BN's and QAT's currently but i'm pretty sure the current BN's would love to help the "Trial BN's" so that they can improve their skill in modding. I would to that 100%. These People have my full support.

To Loctav's Point:

The problem here is, about the Modder that just are like "add add delete delete, k kds pls". They learn from the wrong persons. The osu!mania community consists of 90% Modder that think THIS is the right way to Mod. New Modder see this and think "Hey, look cool, i'm sure i can mod like this too".
And that's wrong. And sadly this is established into Mania Modding. They think this is the Standard.
There are Modder that are not like this, see in Jinjin's Post. The funfact here is, many of them comes from other rhythm games like Stepmania or o2 etc.
I appreciate everyone of them to bring Mania Modding back to the right place, to show other how it really works.

ztrot wrote:

I was talking with some mania guys about what things they look for when modding I still have a lot to learn about the mode but even i can see the need to fix this issue asap, things like getting clear rules and what is seen as invalid agreed upon with the masses. I hope to see results for these things soon.

And that's exactly what they should do. I had a while, before i was BN, on my user page that i really would like to everyone who want's to learn Mapping/Modding or what every they want to know about Mania Mapping. How many did come to me and asked me for help? No one.
I don't know if they just don't want to learn or they are to shy to ask someone for help but this is what also need to be changed. To be honest, many Modder are a little bit harsh in their mods or, and i really don't want to attack here someone please don't misunderstand me, are to meme. Yes. When i would be a new Modder i would be too scared to ask someone for help that often discus very harsh or is in every drama, or is just someone who put everywhere a meme.

Ciel wrote:

As far as I can tell, other than Kami/Feerum, most modders/BNs currently basically fall under a few categories (I could name names, but I won't):
1. Doesn't want to do BN work anymore due to various reasons.
2. Doesn't have the modding capabilities to actually pass the BN test.
3. Doesn't have the time to be bothered with being a BN.

To this i also have to agree. Since i am BN i know many really cool Mapper and Modder and like everyone of them are under Point 1 and 3. They just don't want in the current state of mania Mapping/Modding to be BN or they just don't have the time for it, because if IRL.

Also i totally agree to almost every point in Agka's post. Nothing more to say here.


Okay. Much to read but here's an summary:

I agree with ztrot here. We need more BN's. I'm sure the current BN's (including me) are willing to help the "Trial BN's" so that mistakes they did won't happen again so they wouldn't be alone.

Will keep an Eye here on the tread and read also everything because i really love to see that finally someone undertake something to move Mania modding forward. Often it was talked about this but no one wanted to do something. I really appreciate this.

Thanks so much for the feedback it is good to see not only is the community worried about BN's but the Quality of them as well, I will keep brain storming and one thing I did notice is perhaps with some help from the community, we can make guides to each style of mapping o2jam bms and stepmania styles, giving pointers and lists of good things bad things.
Giving mania that long needed love, as for trying old BN or those that have applied for the test before.. Well we have another round of BN tests coming out for all the extra game modes soon. So maybe round two will prove more sucessful

Its a really hard situation indeed, I couldnt post earlier so I kinda lost a bit the main conversation. But overall what I do feel from most of the "experienced" modders is that they dont really want to farm kudosu because they feel that the best way to do it is doing silly mods like move 4 kd pls.

So its like you are either betraying yourself modding faster to farm kudos to reach the "minimal" needed or you step away and keep modding specific stuff at your own way with better results without being able to hit the BN title ever. For example, I dont see any chance for Halogen- to be a BN right now in this current state despite him being one of the most capable modders for 4K around. I like this kind of new "trial" for 30 days but I am still quite unsure about how it will work or who can actualy be part of it.

One of the most important issues that mania has right now in my opinion, leaving aside the lack of BN power that we have and the drama/split of some members, is that we lack of actual modding queues. Not only modding queues for specific stuff (because almost all the queues are TV Size queues in order to farm kudosu easily and get into the cap faster) but we also lack of that. I would be surprised if we have 5-10 queues for mania active right now.

I feel a little bad about this because I am just pointing mistakes instead of finding solutions and I dont think thats something good either :/

Putting some people in an arbitrary way is probably a bad thing but I would support that if we can actualy have more BN power and better BN power. Teaching people how to mod is also something that we should promote by doing guides or wiki / videos to help. The osumania subforum have some guides to follow but they are a bit outdated and most of the videos are dead. I have a short video (I think it is 20 minutes) about the most basic stuff about mania but it is on spanish. If we have some more people to make something big such as a mania modding guide (and if its needed for modes like CtB or Taiko it would be awesome to have) and spread it with Basics-Advanced guides.

I like tho having some brainstorm over here. Thanks for the attention to this mode ztrot, lets see if we can do something great for it.

To be fair, Juan, I get so many mod reqs that I can't keep my mod open for more than 24 hours every two weeks or so without falling behind. Making your queue "active" is pretty hard ;n;

That just supports your point about having to choose between quality and quantity, though. Youre very right

Nivrad00 wrote:

To be fair, Juan, I get so many mod reqs that I can't keep my mod open for more than 24 hours every two weeks or so without falling behind. Making your queue "active" is pretty hard ;n;

That just supports your point about having to choose between quality and quantity, though. Youre very right

Same thing happend to me two days ago. I got like 6-7 requests in like 3-4 hours... D:

Reading over this thread, there are a few things we could do to help improve the current state of the mania modding community.
Set up newer guides listing what kind of things to look for when modding mania.

Perhaps set up a study buddy kinda thing for those that took the test and showed interest but didn't pass (I feel like that is very important)
if they showed interest instead of telling them better luck next time! Have them work with the current modding community (BN) to learn the ropes.

last I would love if someone would work with me on making academy videos for mania as you know i know just the bare-bone basics and I'm more than willing to work with someone and hell even feature them in the video as long as we can get more info about how the mode works out to the masses.

ztrot wrote:

Reading over this thread, there are a few things we could do to help improve the current state of the mania modding community.
Set up newer guides listing what kind of things to look for when modding mania.

Perhaps set up a study buddy kinda thing for those that took the test and showed interest but didn't pass (I feel like that is very important)
if they showed interest instead of telling them better luck next time! Have them work with the current modding community (BN) to learn the ropes.

last I would love if someone would work with me on making academy videos for mania as you know i know just the bare-bone basics and I'm more than willing to work with someone and hell even feature them in the video as long as we can get more info about how the mode works out to the masses.

I believe we are currently thinking about doing a text guide for the osumania subforum with Blocko. For academy videos I believe anyone here will be able and willing to help but I will offer myself as well.

A bit of a tangent here, but relevant to the discussion at hand.

Honestly, a good fix would be to crack down on the kudosu giving system. A lot.

People here have mentioned how kudosu farming is a problem that leads to a lot of low quality mods and "bad" beatmaps being made and ranked. Why don't we exploit this to force the quality of mods, and subsequently maps, to be higher?

My solution is this:
Have people check the forums for kd as they're given out, and any mod that doesn't show a vested interest in improving not only the beatmap, but also the mapper's ability, will be denied kudosu. There could also be a minimum length of mod, but this can lead to extremely subjective issues.

It's especially annoying to me when I get mods such as https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/404826/p=4828974 . While it does point out issues with the map, it tells me nothing constructive about the actual mapping. And it's quite obvious the modder is just doing it to fulfill his queue.

Basically, turn kudosu into a much harder-earned commodity that isn't something you can just throw around. And then maybe have it actually be useful for ranking maps. Maybe one should need to spend some stars just to request a BN check. This would certainly fix the ridiculous backlogs our current BNs have to deal with.

Just a thought.

Umm-- I agree on having more ACTIVE BN's but I think the evaluation will not do anything at all, it's just a waste of time and effort. It maybe a good thing to do but I disagree with it.

ztrot wrote:

we can make guides to each style of mapping o2jam bms and stepmania styles, giving pointers and lists of good things bad things.

Please make it happen <3
thank you!

ztrot wrote:

last I would love if someone would work with me on making academy videos for mania as you know i know just the bare-bone basics and I'm more than willing to work with someone and hell even feature them in the video as long as we can get more info about how the mode works out to the masses.

i'm up for it ✓✓

BilliumMoto wrote:

Basically, turn kudosu into a much harder-earned commodity that isn't something you can just throw around. And then maybe have it actually be useful for ranking maps. Maybe one should need to spend some stars just to request a BN check. This would certainly fix the ridiculous backlogs our current BNs have to deal with.

Just a thought.

Quite an interesting way to bring back the star priority system, but i believe the transition is the problem if this is going to happen:

- there may be too many maps to check when you're considering a transition from the current state to another state that is rougher on the kudosu giving, some people may still be stuck at the current system and ignore this change and hence do some underground kudosu farming

- might take quite a long time to transition due to the current accumulated kudosu count, can be solved by resetting but I picture not many people would be happy to do that, or going through countless threads they have been kudosu-ed on on the less-stricter grounds but that's not too viable too

- however, I do believe that this will be a useful system to sieve out maps that are worth checking out bringing back the "actually bother to check the star priority BNs"
- as a BN, i never really bothered with star priority because pretty much every map has +12 anyways lmao

ztrot wrote:

we can make guides to each style of mapping o2jam bms and stepmania styles, giving pointers and lists of good things bad things.

Quite worried that the main problem is that the styles do not coincide well with "rankability" but will see in the future when the ranking criteria v2 rolls out i guess

Hello! Sorry if my english is bad and for my mistake
And sorry if my idea is written suckly
I see BN problem are faced by most mapper in this osumania community, since the BN's inactivity in nominating maps
I do agree with the test with the period of 30 days, and then what happen after that 30 days period is over? If the good one will be permanent? All of them will be changed into some new guy?

Simple mods but get into the point of the map like add 1 or move, but at least they have to get into the idea of the mapper, but mostly they just mod what the modder think right, but the mapper isn't
Most of my friend, maybe can be all of my friend doesnt know the video of tutorial for some osu stuff that place in ztrot's userpage. They are lazy to see stuff in osu website. Maybe you can do more promotion on this, so the video will be watched by many people

About Halogen and Schrigozer(nvm the name) mod are "rare"
Of course they are rare, you know that everyone isn't a great player like halogen or schrigozer do, the example is myself. I can't even test 3* maps higher. I know testing map is the best mod, since i ever experienced and can give more mods rather than just looking the pattern of the maps via edit mode. Also 1 thing that not every modder have a lot of time to do testing on map. If it's marathon, then the thing that i would like to say will be forgotten, well you will be lucky if the map give rest time for you, but still you have to see via edit and go back to testing
The main thing needed to make halogen or schrigozer mod is skill just that and not everyone have it

Thing like that modder want to mod the map quickly, because they think that : for what i do mod so hard on a map, even i don't get paid, waste my time on that.
Well many kudosu can make someone think that this guy is pro on modding or not. Thats not a wrong conception, thats natural. Just simple thing, if a guy has win many competition, isn't he pro? You will say that even you dont need to see his own performance

Sorry if there's something wrong that i say please apologize me
#RipEnglish ;w;

The kudosu idea is quite nice, if it was let's say - 10 kudosu to request a BN check, then it incentivises giving back to the community to get your map ranked. That can motivate you also to go for M4Ms as both parties get double value out of that and modding mapsets that didn't have mods in a while, as you get 2 KD for modding them. This is a good ground for motivating people to mod which will also solve problems with getting mods for your map in general, make more candidates for future BNs and so on.

Generally agree with the bulk of the thread; Agka nailed most of the things I wanted to say.

Just regarding this post though - but this is a really long post and I'll probably end up saying erroneous but eh:

Davin Fortune wrote:

Simple mods but get into the point of the map like add 1 or move, but at least they have to get into the idea of the mapper, but mostly they just mod what the modder think right, but the mapper isn't

The reason why points like "move to 1" or "add a note" or "remove a note" work sometimes is because these are more objective errors and usually accidental rather than intended. That doesn't really require much idea on what the mapper is intending to do with the chart, because most people who give mods like this will just look through the chart once, point out errors that are audible/visible to them on their first go and then just post without double checking.

Modding is a bit nuanced than that, the ultimate goal of what modding is supposed to do is to accentuate the message that the mapper is trying to convey in a chart. While not many charts actually have a clear message (other than making the chart to be as enjoyable as a wide audience as possible), I think it's always important to just see if there's any particular traits in the chart that seem different from a cookie-cutter chart to adjust what you want to advise the mapper to do.

If you don't pay attention to what the mapper is intending and the mapper is a bit inexperienced, the mapper would end up constantly watering patterns to become easier and generic, the chart loses its identity and it ends up being in the cesspool that is the "what could've been". A good amount of charts have their own personality. There are things that are objective and can be easily pointed out (e.g. difficulty spikes that are either too much for the given section or too much compared to the rest of the chart, like Daiuchuu Stage or M.A.M.A.) of course, but I think that's only one of the takeaways for modding.

There's also other things about modding that I want to talk about like how "effective teaching" in modding is but that's something that I don't have much clues of myself and probably would be suited for another guide altogether.

About Halogen and Schrigozer(nvm the name) mod are "rare"
Of course they are rare, you know that everyone isn't a great player like halogen or schrigozer do, the example is myself. I can't even test 3* maps higher. I know testing map is the best mod, since i ever experienced and can give more mods rather than just looking the pattern of the maps via edit mode. Also 1 thing that not every modder have a lot of time to do testing on map. If it's marathon, then the thing that i would like to say will be forgotten, well you will be lucky if the map give rest time for you, but still you have to see via edit and go back to testing
The main thing needed to make halogen or schrigozer mod is skill just that and not everyone have it

You don't have to be a good player to be a good mapper. What you need to understand is why a pattern is difficult and what would a certain pattern cause a player to do. The reason why "good players" tend to pick up mapping faster than players who are generally less experienced is because most players (not all, there are some top players who have no idea what they're doing while they're playing) at that level have a good understanding on what patterns are difficult, why they are difficult and what kind of motions they go through when they hit a certain pattern.

Slightly unrelated, but the harder thing however, is applying these concepts into charting. The reason why most good players don't become good charters right away is because they don't know how to apply these concepts into their own charts. You don't play through a chart and go like "hey, this plays through really well, I'm going to keep this pattern in mind for charting". Charters however, do apply these concepts.

I do think that good players and players who start out kinda start at square one anyway. Charters would have to memorise patterning and how they work or play on principle. They would then have to figure out how quickly would the difficulty of a pattern would ramp up and how a pattern at a certain speed will affect how a player will approach a pattern. For example a 1234 roll at 200 BPM will be hit as it is (hitting 123412341234..), whereas a 1234 roll at 500 BPM will not be hit as it is, it will be hit as a [12][34] jumptrill. Then they'd also have to figure out how the patterns before and after the pattern would affect the difficulty/movement of that one pattern. It goes on and on. The thing that differentiates between a good player and a player who has started out, is that the former is able to pick up information faster than a new player, for the reasons above. In the end though, both players can reach the same endgoal.

Additionally, figuring out what the rhythms of songs are and overall density/distribution of notes, but can also be learned whether or not you're a good or bad player. It just takes more time if you're not as experienced in a certain thing; like musical background or rhythm game skill.

Thing like that modder want to mod the map quickly, because they think that : for what i do mod so hard on a map, even i don't get paid, waste my time on that.
Well many kudosu can make someone think that this guy is pro on modding or not. Thats not a wrong conception, thats natural. Just simple thing, if a guy has win many competition, isn't he pro? You will say that even you dont need to see his own performance

Honestly I feel that if you're not willing to put in that much effort into your modding I don't think you should be modding to begin with. I guess every single mod counts, I think mods like that shouldn't be rewarded all that much (if at all) because these mods can be easily done through self-assessment of the chart. I guess other people checking through a mapset for you is fine and should be rewarded, but usually when people want to mod something it's to improve a map and get it ranked. I don't think they need kudosu for that.

I'd agree with your kudosu point if it weren't for the fact that you're given the same amount of kudosu for either a mod that takes 4 minutes or a mod that takes one or two hours. Kudosu as it is is close to intrinsically worthless, bordering dead-weight. I feel that the more kudosu you have, chances are the more half-assed your average mod is in the first place. That's not to say that all people with a ton of kudosu is lazy, but considering that you accumulated so much kudosu in a relatively short time, people would be skeptical of the quality of the mods themselves - especially since you get the same kudosu whether or not your mod is rudimentary or intricate.

I guess it's kinda akin to a musician producing 100 tracks in a month. In most cases these musicians didn't really put in that much effort into their work at all. There are cases where these tracks are as heartfelt and intricate as a musician who produces 2 good tracks in a year, but these are edge cases and betting on them is optimistic at best.

Sorry if this went on a tangent, just wanted to clear up some things about charting/modding and all that.

Loving the discussion lots of really good points are being brought up but in regards to making kudo more strict, you have to remember the main problem with the mania community atm is the size is rather small and the learning curve is higher. There is also more subjectivity given that this mode has 2-3 styles per keymode.
That being said I think our best course of action is to make guides and teach those really wanting to get into the modding scene the ropes. But the ideas you all have line up pretty well with what our end goal is, to make the mania community thrive.

Honestly, I would disagree with the learning curve being higher, at least for making easier maps. A lot of easy maps made by novice mappers turn out quite well, it's only when they attempt something they don't understand (denser patterns) where huge problems arise.

Maybe give a reward to BN after iconing a map ?
So they're motivated to be active in iconing a map ^0^)/

Ye inb4 they said iconing a map is just wasting their time for another people and they got nothing :'v

Hello!

The thing is you should able to atleast pass your own map (or at least a bit easier compared to your map) to judge if the pattern is good or not (for playability context). (ex, BMS mapper should able to pass minimum 2 level below the chart they make to submit the map)

There are some mapper that map for technical or visual purpose ignoring the playability purpose. And I think that will destroy the enjoyment of 'playing' which is the very basic purpose of the game.

My suggestion is the BN or QAT should at least can play any style (or key if possible) at least 6 star pass(?). So they can at least feel the pattern mapper decide to make, and point out not only by the 'technical purpose' but with the 'playability purpose' reason too.

Just my 2cent.
Good luck!

Shinzo- wrote:

Ye inb4 they said iconing a map is just wasting their time for another people and they got nothing :'v

Add thing that the mapper doenst care about the condition of BN, they will just keep requesting and ignore the BN
The point is BN feel like work as a slave

ArcherLove wrote:

The thing is you should able to atleast pass your own map

This is already written in the guidelines and I agree with this point, but we cannot really enforce that as a rule. And even then I've seen (too) many mappers mapping something they can play just fine although it's utter garbage. It was already pointed out earlier that a player's skill does not always reflect their mapping skills. Asking for BNs and QATs to be proficient at the game is okay, and it's preferable that they are, however it should not be an absolute requirement to become BN or QAT.

ArcherLove wrote:

My suggestion is the BN or QAT should at least can play any style (or key if possible) at least 6 star pass(?). So they can at least feel the pattern mapper decide to make, and point out not only by the 'technical purpose' but with the 'playability purpose' reason too.

Acrually not all BNs can play like that, yes any style is possible but 6 stars diffs/maps lol that's hardly possible well for some they can (BNs on higher ranks). Well actually IMO to reduce the ranking of what so called "Shitmaps" and to be able for the BNs to at least feel the pattern, decide and point out things clearly is that:

For BNs they should not do any work which are not on their capabilities what i mean is that if they are unsure of things (Surely they should ask other BNs for opinion), even themselves can't play the hardest diff/s for them to be able to feel the patterns or analyze the map, and they do not wholeheartedly do the work on a map because they are somewhat forced to do etc. . .

I agree to adding more BNs and QATs because yes they are a lot of mania mappers now but at the same time i think we really need more active modders too. I agree to the test trial BNs because in here we can really know the potentials of other Modders to become a BN.

About the Modding system having like Shoegazer's MODs are very good but there are some mappers who do not actually care because it's too long so they don't read it and they just follow on what the MOD's said. They are some that they actually care and read them thoroughly but they can't understand it very well so in the end they applied or reject without even fully understanding the MOD.
In conclusion having a MODs like "Add here in |1| <a short explanation>" a short explanation but precise and direct to the point that the mapper will ever think about it is good enough at least. P.S I'm very agree to having like Shoegazer's MODs too i don't hate anything or anyone these are just my opinion. Correct me if i'm wrong lol rip english.

Davin Fortune wrote:

Shinzo- wrote:

Ye inb4 they said iconing a map is just wasting their time for another people and they got nothing :'v

Add thing that the mapper doenst care about the condition of BN, they will just keep requesting and ignore the BN
The point is BN feel like work as a slave

That is a big problem honestly, a lot of people are straightup ignoring what I want from mapper in order to ASK me for a mod. The REQUESTING term should be dropped ASAP.
In regards to Shinzo's point, it's not about iconing the map and getting nothing out of it. It's about possiblity of the map you bubbled being stuck in bubbled section for months for no good reason. Satisfaction when a map you iconed gets ranked is a beautiful thing and that's a great reward.