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Mode Specific BN's and QAT (osu!mania)

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Davin Fortune
584 posts
Joined June 2014
Davin Fortune

Shinzo- wrote:

Ye inb4 they said iconing a map is just wasting their time for another people and they got nothing :'v
Add thing that the mapper doenst care about the condition of BN, they will just keep requesting and ignore the BN
The point is BN feel like work as a slave
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura

ArcherLove wrote:

The thing is you should able to atleast pass your own map
This is already written in the guidelines and I agree with this point, but we cannot really enforce that as a rule. And even then I've seen (too) many mappers mapping something they can play just fine although it's utter garbage. It was already pointed out earlier that a player's skill does not always reflect their mapping skills. Asking for BNs and QATs to be proficient at the game is okay, and it's preferable that they are, however it should not be an absolute requirement to become BN or QAT.
Gravey-
1,491 posts
Joined July 2013
Gravey-

ArcherLove wrote:

My suggestion is the BN or QAT should at least can play any style (or key if possible) at least 6 star pass(?). So they can at least feel the pattern mapper decide to make, and point out not only by the 'technical purpose' but with the 'playability purpose' reason too.
Acrually not all BNs can play like that, yes any style is possible but 6 stars diffs/maps lol that's hardly possible well for some they can (BNs on higher ranks). Well actually IMO to reduce the ranking of what so called "Shitmaps" and to be able for the BNs to at least feel the pattern, decide and point out things clearly is that:

For BNs they should not do any work which are not on their capabilities what i mean is that if they are unsure of things (Surely they should ask other BNs for opinion), even themselves can't play the hardest diff/s for them to be able to feel the patterns or analyze the map, and they do not wholeheartedly do the work on a map because they are somewhat forced to do etc. . .

I agree to adding more BNs and QATs because yes they are a lot of mania mappers now but at the same time i think we really need more active modders too. I agree to the test trial BNs because in here we can really know the potentials of other Modders to become a BN.

About the Modding system having like Shoegazer's MODs are very good but there are some mappers who do not actually care because it's too long so they don't read it and they just follow on what the MOD's said. They are some that they actually care and read them thoroughly but they can't understand it very well so in the end they applied or reject without even fully understanding the MOD.
In conclusion having a MODs like "Add here in |1| <a short explanation>" a short explanation but precise and direct to the point that the mapper will ever think about it is good enough at least. P.S I'm very agree to having like Shoegazer's MODs too i don't hate anything or anyone these are just my opinion. Correct me if i'm wrong lol rip english.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

Davin Fortune wrote:

Shinzo- wrote:

Ye inb4 they said iconing a map is just wasting their time for another people and they got nothing :'v
Add thing that the mapper doenst care about the condition of BN, they will just keep requesting and ignore the BN
The point is BN feel like work as a slave
That is a big problem honestly, a lot of people are straightup ignoring what I want from mapper in order to ASK me for a mod. The REQUESTING term should be dropped ASAP.
In regards to Shinzo's point, it's not about iconing the map and getting nothing out of it. It's about possiblity of the map you bubbled being stuck in bubbled section for months for no good reason. Satisfaction when a map you iconed gets ranked is a beautiful thing and that's a great reward.
Fubukicat
970 posts
Joined February 2012
Fubukicat
Edit of the last minute : btw forgive my manners but hello there xd

I have many things in my head but instead i'll just go for it in a short way

quote from someone that may or may not recognize himself here

'' any mod can be helpfull , cause it forces me to think ''

as an example
Simple things like ''move to x '' if you take the time to think '' why ? '' can lead you to move alot of things in a map

also ,

Bobbias wrote:

I would also like to add that style can be a legitimate reason to deny mods, or to defend pattern choices. the issue is that most mappers don't seem to understand what style really truly is. It's not just a catch-all reason for why you decided to put notes in one place. Style is about a consistent approach to mapping within a particular difficulty or mapset, which informs your pattern choices throughout the entire map. Did I mention consistency? Because that's how to tell the difference between a pattern based on a stylistic choice vs someone trying to justify their choice by using that word.
agreed! ^

my head already hurt from trying to say stuff so i'll just leave it to others have a nice day .
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura

Gravey- wrote:

About the Modding system having like Shoegazer's MODs are very good but there are some mappers who do not actually care because it's too long so they don't read it and they just follow on what the MOD's said.
This is legitimately the first time I've ever heard that. I'd never have thought some people can't be arsed to read through a full mod, considering I take pleasure in doing so myself... In any case I just went through the thread again and I very much agree with the idea of actually checking the mods before awarding kudosu. It's a simple yet sure way to make the modding process of a much higher quality, and (hopefully consequently) raise the general quality of mapset getting ranked.
Kruzon
1,023 posts
Joined December 2013
Kruzon
i was stalking eternyaho post then i ended up here, such hot debate


Gravey- wrote:

Actually not all BNs can play like that, yes any style is possible but 6 stars diffs/maps lol that's hardly possible well for some they can (BNs on higher ranks). Well actually IMO to reduce the ranking of what so called "Shitmaps" and to be able for the BNs to at least feel the pattern, decide and point out things clearly is that:


About the Modding system having like Shoegazer's MODs are very good but there are some mappers who do not actually care because it's too long so they don't read it and they just follow on what the MOD's said. They are some that they actually care and read them thoroughly but they can't understand it very well so in the end they applied or reject without even fully understanding the MOD.
In conclusion having a MODs like "Add here in |1| <a short explanation>" a short explanation but precise and direct to the point that the mapper will ever think about it is good enough at least. P.S I'm very agree to having like Shoegazer's MODs too i don't hate anything or anyone these are just my opinion. Correct me if i'm wrong lol rip english.
lol true hhaha +1

its also recommended if bn/ modder can understand and mod w/ specific language accordingly to avoid potatoes barrier. ie, korean bn for korean modder, (sincerely no ill feeling intended, keep calm)
Shoegazer
osu!mania Paragon
528 posts
Joined April 2013
Shoegazer

Gravey- wrote:

About the Modding system having like Shoegazer's MODs are very good but there are some mappers who do not actually care because it's too long so they don't read it and they just follow on what the MOD's said. They are some that they actually care and read them thoroughly but they can't understand it very well so in the end they applied or reject without even fully understanding the MOD.
If a modder is able to explain his points to the point where the elaborations become almost too long to read and the mapper applies the points without reading it, the main loss is on the mapper - not the modder. The modder will waste an hour of work probably, but he or she would retain knowledge about certain concepts in patterning. It's not as subjective as you think - translating music to charts (that are rankable) is more akin to a science. He (or she) wouldn't be able to learn why a certain pattern is not advisable at this given scenario until the scenario happens again, which is usually unlikely. I guess it happens more often in osu!mania because the maps are basically the same thing over and over because of the ultra-limited song choice (SDVX) but even so; the charter is just pushing away an opportunity to learn.

(Given though.. learning through modding like that isn't the optimal strategy The problem is that "effective teaching" is extremely hard to do especially in the form of modding, and that's ultimately a discussion for another time)

In regards to the language barriers/not being able to understand the mod, mappers are more than welcome to clarify certain points with the modders themselves. Unless you pestered the modder to mod your map, the modder is willing to spend an additional 20-30 minutes clarifying certain doubts you have about a point or three that he has made. The reason why we don't clarify them is because we assume that you have a general idea on what we're trying to say. In reality this isn't really the case, but the mappers are usually too afraid to clarify certain points for some reason or another. We can't tell whether or not you're unsure, so please let us know if there are some points you're not sure about.

And honestly, if you're rejecting every single point in a map because the mod is way too long, it shows that you're not willing to put in the effort of paying attention to mods and that you're filtering out (usually) more useful information. You probably shouldn't be getting your map ranked if that's the case.

In conclusion having a MODs like "Add here in |1| <a short explanation>" a short explanation but precise and direct to the point that the mapper will ever think about it is good enough at least. P.S I'm very agree to having like Shoegazer's MODs too i don't hate anything or anyone these are just my opinion. Correct me if i'm wrong lol rip english.
See, if there was a way to explain my points in a more concise and direct manner, I would do it. The problem is that it's much harder to do when it comes to patterning because the main problem is that you'd be showing the mapper a different type of pattern. You would then have to explain how this pattern would play better in this context and that takes a few lines to explain. Aspects of charts like layering consistency and placement of certain notes is easier to explain, but the more significant components of modding are not.

Eternalie wrote:

'' any mod can be helpfull , cause it forces me to think ''

as an example
Simple things like ''move to x '' if you take the time to think '' why ? '' can lead you to move alot of things in a map
I'm pretty sure I know who said this and I think I've vehemently argued with him in regards to this point haha. Anyway, quoting back to this:

Shoegazer wrote:

The reason why points like "move to 1" or "add a note" or "remove a note" work sometimes is because these are more objective errors and usually accidental rather than intended.
In most cases, when you think about more objective errors like missing notes or having too many notes, it's more accidental and because of that it would be addressed without much thought necessary. I do agree that there are some cases in which a person might eventually realise that they would have to redo their chart because they noticed that a layering scheme seems really flawed as a whole (or maybe PR isn't followed well enough and there's an easy way to follow PR), but these are rare cases. These kinds of things usually happen if a mapper is starting out in mapping (though the PR one might be an exception, that can happen to most mappers), not so much more experienced mappers.

But ultimately the biggest problem with mods like that is that most charters will have the tendency of putting in the same amount of effort as the modder himself. If a modder gives a half-assed mod, the mapper will just read through the mod without much concern. Very rarely do mappers think about the entire structure of a section when they see "remove note" or think about the purpose for "move to 3" if there is no reasoning actually provided.

Ultimately though no one is really saying that these mods have no value. They do have value, it's just not as valuable as ones that are more elaborate. These 6-line mods are usually half-assed attempts by glossing over the chart once or twice and then listing down whatever comes to mind. The concept about "redoing a layering scheme" or "moving all of these notes to a certain column whenever there's x sound" accidentally epiphanic at best.
juankristal
osu! Alumni
1,408 posts
Joined August 2010
juankristal

Shinzo- wrote:

Maybe give a reward to BN after iconing a map ?
So they're motivated to be active in iconing a map ^0^)/

Ye inb4 they said iconing a map is just wasting their time for another people and they got nothing :'v
Thats something that, if its polished, might be an option. I do see people iconing whatever without even checking just for the reward tho...
Rumia-
2,526 posts
Joined July 2012
Rumia-
hi
ArcherLove
1,434 posts
Joined March 2013
ArcherLove
hi rumi~~

Also you all who said "it's ok if BN can't play map" you are missing my point.

I say "so they can feel the map", not it's not a 'should' have skills ._.
Kyousuke-
1,798 posts
Joined May 2013
Kyousuke-
Hi, i also want to share some thoughts here.

About the shoegazer's modding system, if we want to make it as a future modding system atleast the people who can do it (ex: shoegazer, halogen, pope gadget, and the others) maybe can give a more example of it by checking more maps and not only in a certain type of the map (ex: a hard 4k maps).

So the other modders who are still using the current modding system, could understand how to make a mod like that. (of course it's not easy, bcs it needs an experienced player who can expressing the pattern that are just not come from this game, also it needs a people who can speak english fluently)
Or atleast we will get used to a kind of that mod. Since it's still rare to see and most of the modders are still using the current modding system (even most of the BNs too)

I know that's quite hard to happens, bcs actually it's up to them and they must spent a couple of times for that. But why not to try it.
Surono
7,196 posts
Joined November 2013
Surono
when I see that post above.. I think to myself...

"woah.. pointing something without timestamp, give de though and try teaching/sharing with someone with looonngg words.. I am nub, engrish batd"
lenpai
Beatmap Nominator
1,780 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai
Dropping by legendary thread

Hitsounds turn off potential BNs. Need confirmation about this.

But if they're willing enough to help the community, they would learn how to do so. Thanks captain obvious.
Raediaufar
879 posts
Joined November 2014
Raediaufar
uhh.. just accidentally seeing this thread. Actually there are like 4 mania BNs which still active right now but we can see there are only few mania maps being ranked nowadays so ofc what we need right now is new BNs. I believe there are lot of mania modders which are capable to mod but only few of them which actually interested to work as BN.

For the modding system, I think the best thing is to make the mapper understand what you want them to change in their beatmap and why. Modding with a very long mod can be confusing to the mapper (especially for new ones) and they might not get your points so the purpose of the modding itself to make maps better is not carried out well. I agree with Eternalie that really simple mod like "move to x" is just really bad cause the mappers don't know why the modder want them to do so but having a long mod which make the mapper confused is not good as well since it lose the communicative purpose between the modder and the mapper. Modding is not like reviewing a beatmap wholefully but just giving a suggestion on how to make their maps better and they can understand your points. When modding, I also consider that "is the mapper will understand what I mean here?" Because sometimes when you deal with new mappers they still new to this mapping community and they just barely know patterns.
LordRaika
Elite Mapper
1,438 posts
Joined September 2013
LordRaika
been really busy in real life....
and just got the news from the community about this thread... (and here am i)



well, yes from my view... current BN has one major issue which is their personal time... for the community is not enough,(like me)
leading them unable to fulfilling their request and some, just got retire because of this.


Next, i really agree that kudosu doesnt really determine how good a modder could be(as one of BN requirement?). There are lots of user that are capable to gives more detail mod and useful one, giving their time for a good quality mod but its time consuming that they cant accept too much request.


Increase the amount of BN for now? Sure... why not? the community can judge if the BN could do their job properly or not.
BN is someone who can judge a map really well especially in two aspect, playability of the map and the structure of the map.



finally, about some guideline for osu!mania? "Please count me in"
i always want to make one for the community but mainly about what is a good map, what to avoid & some good technique to map
(NOT about how to map, because how to map is errr.... basically just put note, LN and timing, which is already exist in osu wiki as guide)

here is the guide that i want to cover
*pattern and unique pattern (shield, staccato, trill.... also unique pattern that exist but ignoring note density, but it does fits the difficulty)
*what kind of pattern is hard/dumb/comfortable/fun to be play (i can also sort it by star rating and user's performance)

base on above point of guide, it could improve how a modder mod a map now... not just a simple "add 1, remove 1"
but they can understand the map and the structure now.



as for the rest, we also have Evening that could cover some other mapping terms and technique or even basic
and juankristal for some video guide.... i would like to sum this up into 1 thread later , so count us in... :D
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
Why do I notice this thread just now? :o

The current problem is that BN are expected to do everything that is thrown at them whether they like or not, can do or not, etc. Ofc, BN are not expected to do what they can't or want. Nobody says otherwise, but that's what the system itself is currently set up towards. I think a system that restricts BN to take care maps they are capable of doing would:
1) Avoid BN handeling maps that are not capable of handeling
2) Reducing "responsibility" by reducing the amount of requests each of them are flooded with

I think a tier based system is best suited to address first 2 issues. The tiers would be categorized by the maximum difficulty a BN can bubble and separated by keymodes. Any player becoming a BN starts with tier 0 and is allowed to handle lower difficulty maps like 1*. BN are able to increase tier by gaining enough points. The point system would function much like it is now, with one notable difference. Time doesn't affect the points and falling below a threshold decreases the tier instead of stipping BN of their rights. This would effectively make everyone a BN, where the points measure the BN's expertise by keymode instead of how active and helpful they are. Players that don't want to go through the tier system can instead take the test to determine their tier.

The lower tier BN will bubble maps that don't meet criteria or are not fit for bubble. In order to teach the lower tier BN, a higher tier BN can also earn points by popping bubbles a lower tier BN did, decreasing the amount of points the said lower tier BN has. This requires giving an explanation of why the lower tier BN was wrong to bubble the map. Abuse by this actually easy, so any abuse by this would require a mod to strip BN of points to tier 0 for the BN to go through the tiers all over.

Here is the less appeal part of the idea. For this to work, BN's would need to check by difficulty instead of by map and bubble by difficulty instead of map. It would require a changing how maps are qualified. While this has potential of creating a lot of BN for lower difficulties, higher tier BN would still be as hard to come by as right now. Generally lower star maps are easier to review, so I think that would keep lower tier BN encouraged unlike the current system, but not sure to what point.

A third issue we are dealing with is that BN work is boring for some and there is not enough time for such.

Not sure how realistic the following bit is, but this is to solve the 3rd issue. Call me crazy if you must. If possible it is best to make points BN get as competative as possible much like pp. Idk, have a difficulty check be worth some amount of points based on how hard it is to go over. SB? Hitsounds? Timing? Etc? Have a some sort of difficulty rating system. Have leaderboards for such. This is a game for crying outloud, and we make BN work look like it's a job! Since inactive BN would be a thing, the listing should also keep track of which BN is active allow to sort by active/inactive for easy finding.

Crazy aside, we are indeed not making it exciting enough for BN's. I think there should be something encouraging them similiar to what drives players to play this game now-a-days. Remember that new BN's dont have the same passion for modding as the current QAT's for instance. Moreover, we are discouraging them by putting so much weight onto them right now. I don't know how such system would work, but any incentive is better than no incentive..

I'd like to hear your thoughts on how crazy this. Other than that, I have no idea. I'd like to help however I can whenever I can if possible
Tornspirit
251 posts
Joined January 2012
Tornspirit
Seeing as this thread has mostly responses about BN's I want to talk a bit about attempting to get maps ranked as a new mapper (or at least as a mapper who doesn't have any ranked maps).

The typical timeline for someone is along the lines of:

I want to get a map ranked/start mapping > I'm going to collect mods until my map is good enough > My map is good enough, time to call BNs

Lets talk about each of these steps.

I want to get a map ranked/start mapping:


Not much to talk about here other than maybe trying to get better base resources for beginner mappers such as tutorials on the editor itself as well as what makes maps 'good', what patterns are commonly used, what to avoid etc.

I'm going to collect mods until my map is good enough:
Two issues here, the mods and knowing when your map is good enough.

As of now, a lot of people try to fill a 'quota' of mods before they try and find BN's to check. In an ideal world, everyone would have maps that are already well done in the 'style' or 'theme' or whatever you want to call it of the map, and these mods would be to check for technical issues (which most mods already are) and to maybe offer some suggestions (which, again, they already are). People are getting surprised when they fill out their quota and it turns out that contrary to what everyone else has told them in their quick mods, technical issues are not the only part of what their map needs to fix.

This also begs the question of how do you actually know when your map is polished enough to be considered for ranking. BN's get bombarded with heaps and heaps of requests, and sometimes these requests can range from very well polished maps to 'why are you even coming to me your entire map is an issue'. We should try to cut down the number of requests that BN's actually get by teaching the mapping community how to recognize when your map is ready for ranking, not just by the lack of technical issues within the map, but by ensuring that your map is done to the best of its potential. I'm not entirely sure how this can be done considering the subjective matter of mapping, but even small steps into being able to say 'this map is closer to being ready' or 'this map is ready' would be really good.

My map is good enough, time to call BNs

This is a massive issue for multiple reasons.

There's already been a lot of criticism about favouritism when it comes to BN's; I'm not going to say much about anything in particular, but I think that the perception of it being harder to find BN's when you're an unknown mapper is true.

When you're an unknown/newer mapper, there's multiple things you have to go through. Remember that BN's get bombarded with heaps of requests, so it's easy to get brushed off as 'yet another request'. This isn't the BN's fault of course, but it's rough to go around asking for requests then hearing BN's complain about people requesting BN checks when it's literally the only way that you can advance your map and multiple BN's are either difficult to contact due to inactivity or being busy, and the fact that it's actually really difficult sometimes to figure out what the BN actually wants in a map. Personally I think that all BN's should lay out clearly what they want from requests SOMEWHERE, preferably in their profile page or on a modding queue that they link from their profile or something.

A combined BN/QAT thread that only lists the BN/QAT expectations, current level of activity (active, semi-active, inactive, etc.) and current state of their queues (currently taking 5 requests, will be unavailable for roughly 1 month, etc.) might be very helpful too. This would cut down on the number of 'bad' requests, or at least make it easy to ignore when the BN's have clear rules on what they will and won't accept.

---

Ideally, the system should be easy for newcomers to get into while maintaining high quality standards that are CLEAR and EASY to understand for ranking. Remember this isn't only about BN activity, or mapping activity, it's about helping mappers and BN/QAT get the most out of each other to create and rank the best maps possible.

---

As an aside, I see a few suggestions on BN's and playability of high difficulty maps, as well as modding of low>high maps as a progression system. Remember that some people out there are good mapping/criticising high level maps, but are clueless on low level maps, and vice versa. Even if their ability is more limited, I don't think we should discount people who's expertise is focused on a single keymode, or a single level range if they are good at what they do.
Gravey-
1,491 posts
Joined July 2013
Gravey-

abraker wrote:

A third issue we are dealing with is that BN work is boring for some and there is not enough time for such.

Not sure how realistic the following bit is, but this is to solve the 3rd issue. Call me crazy if you must. If possible it is best to make points BN get as competative as possible much like pp. Idk, have a difficulty check be worth some amount of points based on how hard it is to go over. SB? Hitsounds? Timing? Etc? Have a some sort of difficulty rating system. Have leaderboards for such. This is a game for crying outloud, and we make BN work look like it's a job! Since inactive BN would be a thing, the listing should also keep track of which BN is active allow to sort by active/inactive for easy finding.

Crazy aside, we are indeed not making it exciting enough for BN's. I think there should be something encouraging them similiar to what drives players to play this game now-a-days. Remember that new BN's dont have the same passion for modding as the current QAT's for instance. Moreover, we are discouraging them by putting so much weight onto them right now. I don't know how such system would work, but any incentive is better than no incentive..

I'd like to hear your thoughts on how crazy this. Other than that, I have no idea. I'd like to help however I can whenever I can if possible
Actually there's a BNG ranking before. . .
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
There is some kind of difference between a statistic, numbers that keep track of something, and values others are competing for. The difference, I think, is how it is done and what it is used for
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
I honestly don't think making BNs a competitive system is a good idea. Any time you create competition, some people will want to find a way to get the most out of the system with the least amount of work. Cliques of BNs and mappers will form and these groups will be largely independent of eachother (this is already true, see comments mentioning favoritism). Since these groups will mostly be independent, it will be easy for them to pass maps that aren't as polished as they should be through the process with minimal oversight (you can't realistically expect QATs to catch every map with problems).

Now, on the topic of language barriers: if a mapper ignores or denies a mod due to not understanding it, I almost think that should have some sort of penalty. If someone mods your map, but you do not understand them, you need to ask them to clarify.

Additionally, I think that if a mapper is aggressive towards their modders, there should be some sort of penalty. Perhaps make it so that the map that was modded is unable to be pushed forward in the process for a certain amount of time (this should be a relatively long period, since something like 1 month isn't likely to delay a map being ranked by any significant amount of time, nor will it likely deter the mapper from being aggressive towards their modders). Maybe something along the lines of 3 months? The reason I bring this up is that I've seen quite a few cases where someone mods a map, but the mapper disagrees with them and becomes abusive towards the modder.

I definitely agree with the idea of making guides for mapping styles, and I have a few suggestions for how those should be implemented. First, I think that any guide should be posted to the wiki, not a forum post (that way anyone can update it in the future without requiring forum mod privileges in the case that the original poster becomes inactive or unable/unwilling to edit their forum post). I also think that the writing should be a collaborative effort between many community members. For example, I think that even if the guides are written in english (although ideally they should be translated to other languages as well), mappers who do not speak english should be given a chance to contribute through someone who can help translate their ideas.

EDIT: also ztrot, you should check out the guide linked in my signature: http://www.cosmovibe.com/ncguide/ it was written for a different game, but it's general enough that most of the ideas apply to osu!mania just as well as any other VSRG.
puxtu
2,926 posts
Joined August 2013
puxtu
Less talk, more action.
As long as no one is circlejerking with their maps, I'm fine with any terms and conditions in modding or ranking system.
Abraxos
855 posts
Joined October 2014
Abraxos
posting in legendary thread

puxtu wrote:

Less talk, more action.
As long as no one is circlejerking with their maps, I'm fine with any terms and conditions in modding or ranking system.
tru fam 10/10


Bobbias wrote:

I definitely agree with the idea of making guides for mapping styles, and I have a few suggestions for how those should be implemented. First, I think that any guide should be posted to the wiki, not a forum post (that way anyone can update it in the future without requiring forum mod privileges in the case that the original poster becomes inactive or unable/unwilling to edit their forum post). I also think that the writing should be a collaborative effort between many community members. For example, I think that even if the guides are written in english (although ideally they should be translated to other languages as well), mappers who do not speak english should be given a chance to contribute through someone who can help translate their ideas.

EDIT: also ztrot, you should check out the guide linked in my signature: http://www.cosmovibe.com/ncguide/ it was written for a different game, but it's general enough that most of the ideas apply to osu!mania just as well as any other VSRG.
i guess bobbias just hit the nail on the head on this one. although the guide in it of itself is kinda wordy and there are a couple of pretty irrelevant sections, it still does the job pretty well as a general mapping guide, maybe even a modding guide if you stretch that word wide enough.

to me, i feel as if it isnt the problem of not really having enough BNs for every mapper to clamor over, rather than it is about stepping up the standard of the general modding scene. when i first started modding for mania i had absolutely no idea how to do it (i still dont tbhimosmdh) , and after digging i only managed to find a few obscure posts talking about the basics of it, i.e. how to link timing points and other rudimentary things. it would really be nice to have a wikipage that goes into more detail than what we currently have, and maybe even a dedicated mania #modhelp place where anyone can ask questions related to mania modding/mapping.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
sometimes I feel like abraker's points are so abstract and unrealistic that his posts could do well as modern art.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
I want to help, I am try to think of solutions, and what are you doing? There is no room for hate here. Please be mindful of that each person has their their own way of thinking and approaching the problem. Be constructive and be polite. Bobbias made a good argument against my idea which still leaves me thinking. This is a difficult problem to solve and it's best we work together to solve it.

In regards to the idea about guides, yes I do agree that we are lacking intructional content on how to make good maps. However, these will likely appeal to novice BN and would be generally ignored by typical players who are just starting out casually. Don't expect them to study this. Remember that BN is an already a time consuming position. I would expect a player who wants to start out as a BN to gradually learn this stuff. Requiring to read guides and taking time to watch videos may turn a good chunk of players wanting to be BN away, leaving only dedicated players fit for BN. I am trying to figure out how to make this easy for people starting out and how to make this entertaining
lenpai
Beatmap Nominator
1,780 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai
Just thought of something. Rough idea but w/e

Considering the diversity of mania, we could accept specalized ppl to the scene. Ignoring what they lack and instead consider what they are really good at / knowledgeable on.

Which leads to my rough idea where BN (or rather, the bubbling and qualifying system) should be more of a collaborative effort than an effort of two people (who at certain occassion PM other modders on timing issues, snaps, and w/e)

What if instead of:
Person A checks map for bubble
Person B checks map for qualify
Qualify woohoo

Do this instead:
Person A (possibly a BN trainee) says "hey i checked this map and i think this is good enough"
Some ppl check and agree its good (if not says that the map above must be modded more / redone)
Person B checks timing and metadata
Person C checks HS and SV
Person D checks easier diffs ( or meta keys )
Person E checks harder diffs (or anti meta keys)
Person F (maybe QAT or current BN) decides it's good and qualifies

Insert the bubbling somewhere and the process could be not this long.

Eh yeah

Stuff:

1. People who aren't directly working for mania can help
2. Specialization gives way to people who may be good at modding but hates "insert ranking necessity and technicality"
3. Breaking down to what a person wants to check = less unwanted work
4. No competition(?)
5. The model i provided can be a thing for the 30 days BN thing
6. Possibly the best or worst thing


Idk, was just a thought while I was commuting. Any thoughts? Additions?
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
I like this idea. BN specialization may indeed take the weight off some BN's shoulders. I just want to add that perhaps allow BN to switch specialization like from SV to timing or etc if they want to once a month. Allowing it any time would make this no different than the current system and I don't see why making permanent specialization is a good idea. Also allow BN to take on multiple specializations if they so wish.
Halogen-
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
574 posts
Joined September 2009
Halogen-
The problem with doing this is that the required distribution/division of responsibilities forces a much larger team to be present in order to get a single piece of content ranked. The issue with inactivity is now being counter-acted by a much higher required team involvement.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
I like to think that getting more BN is a prequisite for this idea to work rather than "there is not enough BN, therefore this is a bad idea". This idea is similiar to my idea of a tier system, so I'll hold on to it as it appeals to me.
Halogen-
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
574 posts
Joined September 2009
Halogen-

abraker wrote:

I like to think that getting more BN is a prequisite for this idea to work rather than "there is not enough BN, therefore this is a bad idea". This idea is similiar to my idea of a tier system, so I'll hold on to it as it appeals to me.
Who is this responding to? My response was targeted to Lenfried -- and yes, you're more than entitled to hold onto your opinion (as is everyone else), but you guys need to have a bit more forethought than "we need to add BNs" or "we need to change the system". Without a proper division of labor, the same thing is going to happen and repeat itself. How many times do you want to have to cry out for fixing a system? I think that one time is one time too many, but while we're all here, we should come to a solution that is actually functional for the long term.
lenpai
Beatmap Nominator
1,780 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai
I do acknowledge that to be the major flaw of the idea as to which is why i posted at the hopes of it possibly being a base model, reference, or whatever for something better
Halogen-
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
574 posts
Joined September 2009
Halogen-

Lenfried- wrote:

I do acknowledge that to be the major flaw of the idea as to which is why i posted at the hopes of it possibly being a base model, reference, or whatever for something better
Yeah, I understand. It's certainly not a bad idea at all in concept (in my opinion) -- having different groups of people doing subsets of things that are more comfortable to them is a good step in the right direction logically.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
I also agree that specializing people into specific roles sounds like a good way to divide labor, assuming there's a large number of BNs to spread this work out. Consider that multiple people for each role will be necessary to prevent burnout from overwork, and to create redundancy so that if one or two BNs for a specific role happen to go inactive it won't completely break the system.

Another reason I think it's a good idea is because it will allow for more people to become BNs, since it takes less knowledge about patterning and map structure to check things like timing, hitsounds, metadata, etc. It will allow the BNs who do actually understand the more subjective concepts to focus on that work rather than wasting time checking the objective details.

The most important prerequisite for this to work though is a GREATLY expanded BN group compared to it's current size. And something I haven't seen discussed yet is how you would keep some sort of control and oversight over the entire BN system. What sort of organizational structure works best for an expanded BN group? How do we structure the admission system to ensure that new BNs are qualified for the position? How do we ensure that we have a well balanced number of BNs for each position?

Also important to consider is the current situation is a) we lack a reasonable number of BNs given the overall amount of work for them, and b) the BNs we do have are often inactive. A sudden change to a new system will completely change many things at once and we need to be ready to take control, modify our ideas, and keep a continuing dialog about the changes as they are implemented. If we don't, it's easy to end up in a different situation where we are once again complaining about a broken system. If things don't work out the way we expect them to, we need to be able to come up with possible alternatives or changes to try to counteract whatever unexpected consequences arise.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
This system can be fairly easy to simulate on a smaller scale by the community if enough people - including non-BN users who are good at checking one specific thing - are willing to try it out. I think Lenfried's got a neat idea there and it is something I really want to see live to know whether it works or not. We'd only need a few mapsets - with their respective mappers' agreement - and a dozen of normal users volunteers to give it a try, along with a couple actual BNs. I for one would be totally in. A simple Trello could be all we need for all I know. The only issue I see here is that, in case it ever ends up working nicely, having that system apply for every mapset calls for a pretty huge revamp of the ranking process (again), which ends up affecting the other modes as well - I can hardly imagine such a system officially only supported for o!m, hence why representatives of the other modes should give it a go as well.

I'm probably thinking too far ahead, but so far this has been the only suggestion with which we do not actually need official support to set up and try out at first (that being said help from the higher ups is of course welcome), and it should be simple enough to get it to work given we have enough people sticking around to start the experiment.

That would solve the immediate need of teaching BNs how to be, well, BNs altogether by writing up modding or mapping or whatever guides you can come up with, not to mention learning all of this stuff is pretty time consuming. Guides are good to have, but having them as options for users and "specialized BNs" to expand their knowledge without the former being forced upon the latter could be the right (or wrong who knows) way to proceed.
Kruzon
1,023 posts
Joined December 2013
Kruzon

Bobbias wrote:

EDIT: also ztrot, you should check out the guide linked in my signature: http://www.cosmovibe.com/ncguide/ it was written for a different game, but it's general enough that most of the ideas apply to osu!mania just as well as any other VSRG.

agreed, you might want to replace current how-to-map-mania wiki with this one instead, or at least, stickied somewhere in osumania forum. diversity of mapping style aside, new players should at least know the basic essence of mania mapping, pronto
LastExceed
Master of the Fade
394 posts
Joined March 2015
LastExceed
offer bonuses for being a BN
I really like this idea! How about free osu!supporter for BNs?
Evening
2,464 posts
Joined December 2012
Evening

LastExceed wrote:

offer bonuses for being a BN
I really like this idea! How about free osu!supporter for BNs?
YEA! (that'd be cool though)
Kruzon
1,023 posts
Joined December 2013
Kruzon
but that won't be effective for long term tho, also not that much boost of morale, excluding the dedicated ones c:

well, easier way to recruit bn is probably by promising them certain fame, ie forum title might be worthy enough for players to venture the realm of bn

or maybe make kinky badge for bn idk but that might works don't spank me mommy
Fubukicat
970 posts
Joined February 2012
Fubukicat
Give Bn red names tbh
*i'm not even here don't mind me okay thanks*
juankristal
osu! Alumni
1,408 posts
Joined August 2010
juankristal

LastExceed wrote:

offer bonuses for being a BN
I really like this idea! How about free osu!supporter for BNs?
The thing about that is that most of the BN's can AFK or just quit and still be supporters. I dont think we should give rewards to the BNs in general, I do believe we just have to fix some stuff for mania and make people feel interested of being part of it (we all know it wont happend but some really cool mappers just dont want to map here because of hitsounding :D)
Deimos
802 posts
Joined April 2012
Deimos

juankristal wrote:

The thing about that is that most of the BN's can AFK or just quit and still be supporters.
So like GMTs/QATs?
juankristal
osu! Alumni
1,408 posts
Joined August 2010
juankristal

Deimos wrote:

juankristal wrote:

The thing about that is that most of the BN's can AFK or just quit and still be supporters.
So like GMTs/QATs?
BN's are not forced to be modding all day or iconing all day. QATs and GMTs are forced to be either moderating or checking beatmaps. There is a difference.
Feerum
osu! Alumni
2,042 posts
Joined August 2014
Feerum

juankristal wrote:

BN's are not forced to be modding all day or iconing all day. QATs and GMTs are forced to be either moderating or checking beatmaps. There is a difference.
GMT are not forced to checking Maps :o
QAT's doing that Map stuff, GMT that moderating stuff, right? o:
Rumia-
2,526 posts
Joined July 2012
Rumia-

Bobbias wrote:

Also important to consider is the current situation is a) we lack a reasonable number of BNs given the overall amount of work for them, and b) the BNs we do have are often inactive. A sudden change to a new system will completely change many things at once and we need to be ready to take control, modify our ideas, and keep a continuing dialog about the changes as they are implemented. If we don't, it's easy to end up in a different situation where we are once again complaining about a broken system. If things don't work out the way we expect them to, we need to be able to come up with possible alternatives or changes to try to counteract whatever unexpected consequences arise.
pretty much agreeing with this.

juankristal wrote:

The thing about that is that most of the BN's can AFK or just quit and still be supporters. I dont think we should give rewards to the BNs in general, I do believe we just have to fix some stuff for mania and make people feel interested of being part of it (we all know it wont happend but some really cool mappers just dont want to map here because of hitsounding :D)
they could just revoke the supporter/nominating power if they afk for x(exceed) amount of time . besides they dont really have any moderating powers other than iconing so it shouldnt matter much

juankristal wrote:

BN's are not forced to be modding all day or iconing all day. QATs and GMTs are forced to be either moderating or checking beatmaps. There is a difference.
they may have to moderate channels but i dont see they check maps everyday nowadays. implying that we are lacking activites of BN , so QAT activities is reduced , too , since QATs check maps that have been qualified by BNs , normal modding are up to each own . they arent enforced.

in anyhow in my opinion we just need something to motivate these BNs (not supposedly to be free supporters,
maybe bring back BN ranking and points stuffs might do even if its just a little) to do their job properly and consistently , pushing maps forward / polishing maps arent easy tasks and the request must have been a lot ,it do need a lot lot lot lots of motivation .
at the same time i dont mean it to be some sort of competitive , just a marking points that shows their work is good enough.
i do not know what the current BN system offers ,so please correct me if im wrong.I;ve been away from the team for a year now

some modders are actually good with just saying move 3 delete 2 ctrl h ctrl j , they just dont know how to explain because of language barriers/lack of communication skills

things that actually demotivate them are actually because checking osu!mania maps are a bit heavier work than other modes because of the specific hitsound volumes and keysounds , understanding between various of other game style charting ,miscommunicating/misunderstanding between styles occurs.

LastExceed wrote:

offer bonuses for being a BN
" offering bonus " is not the right word , giving them a feeling of appreciation of their hardworks i think words it better. the team was once name Beatmap Appreciation Team.

giving a name color does affects motivation too , even if its just on forum , it displays on their profile , so it does feel like being appreciated instead of the nominator badge that only appears in map threads was not really satisfacting, those were the time heh.

nvm why am i even writing this. oh my , its been almost a year since i touch this game mode xD
AncuL
1,114 posts
Joined March 2013
AncuL
community checking or such should be helpful as people who can mod really well arent really active.
Deimos
802 posts
Joined April 2012
Deimos

juankristal wrote:

Deimos wrote:

So like GMTs/QATs?
BN's are not forced to be modding all day or iconing all day. QATs and GMTs are forced to be either moderating or checking beatmaps. There is a difference.
And? There shouldn't be any differences. GMTs are moderating the forum and/or chat. QATs are checking Qualified Beatmaps if they fit the quality to be Ranked. BNs also spend their time to improve Beatmaps to get high quality Beatmaps ranked for the community. When you get inactive you will get moved out of the group and that's probably for all groups. At the end everyone of them is spending their time to improve the game and community and that's not worth a supporter tag which only costs 4$ a month?

PS: Also I think no one is forcing you to be a GMT, you should be free as well to stop moderating like a BN to stop modding.
juankristal
osu! Alumni
1,408 posts
Joined August 2010
juankristal

Deimos wrote:

And? There shouldn't be any differences. GMTs are moderating the forum and/or chat. QATs are checking Qualified Beatmaps if they fit the quality to be Ranked. BNs also spend their time to improve Beatmaps to get high quality Beatmaps ranked for the community. When you get inactive you will get moved out of the group and that's probably for all groups. At the end everyone of them is spending their time to improve the game and community and that's not worth a supporter tag which only costs 4$ a month?

PS: Also I think no one is forcing you to be a GMT, you should be free as well to stop moderating like a BN to stop modding.
You are not seeing my point at all... You can lave the GMT for sure but you have actual responsabilities in the moderation team, something that you dont have in the BN. Yeah, you should be iconing 3 maps per month but you are not forced to be a bubble machine. You are not forced to check the maps that you dislike. As a moderator or QAT you have to check even if you dont want.

Anyways, why are we discusing this in a thread like that? Lets just talk about BN's.
SpectorDG
1,167 posts
Joined June 2014
SpectorDG
need more active BN's and best quality ranked maps
AyeAries
880 posts
Joined June 2015
AyeAries
i hope for more active BN's and QAT's for mania :D
Arzenvald
4,056 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
hi

just passing by, don't mind my inactivity in BN stuff..
is there any significant progress for this newer BNs & QATs development? also.. have a nice day!

_(:3」∠)_
JoelCN
1 post
Joined May 2015
JoelCN

xanibabe wrote:

Although this isn't particularly about BN's, I want to point out that become a mania modder is very difficult in the beginning. There aren't a lot of guides for modding specific to mania, and so it's hard to know exactly what to do or what the editor is capable of doing.
edit: also the current mapping meta is very conflicting, as there is a clash of BMS, o2jam, stepmania, etc, and people who are new to VSRG
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