OSUMANIA FUCKING SUCKS HAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHA
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osu!mania critisism is so unfair
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mania is bad and you should feel bad
yeah i agree tbh
stepmania is a festering shithole of people with mental health issues and elitists that can't accept anything with LONG nTOes
remove stepmania, thank you for bringing this to the attention of the osu!!!mAbnia community
stepmania is a festering shithole of people with mental health issues and elitists that can't accept anything with LONG nTOes
remove stepmania, thank you for bringing this to the attention of the osu!!!mAbnia community
waaah osumania sucks but i'll still come here every time and play it
*does converts*-Kamikaze- wrote:
don't do autoconverts kids
There are 3 kinds of people:
- Stepmania fa*s
- LR2/O2jam fa*s
- osu!mania fa*s
- and space time lovers
- Stepmania fa*s
- LR2/O2jam fa*s
- osu!mania fa*s
- and space time lovers
I play osu from time to time and enjoy it when playing good charts but the game has its flaws that keeps me from playing it as much as other games.
If you want to defend osu, here are its upsides:
1. very easy to use map editor
2. built-in irc client + multiplayer with servers
3. map uploading server
4. ability to spectate other players
All of those are things that other rhythm games tend to lack and I'd love if they had them.
However osu has downsides in other aspects such as:
1. very limited skinning
2. default and cap map settings that lead to bad habits and hurt improvement rate
3. low mapping standards
4. immature community
All of those downsides sometimes make osu frustrating to play or talk about with others, but if you simply ignore all the annoying people and only play with friends, ignore all the shitty maps and only play the good ones, use logical map settings and try to play well, and find a decent skin, then osu can feel like a pretty alright game that's fun to spend time on.
So there you go. Here's a fair criticism. Now quit 4K because it's shit, come play 7K and join LR2. we have cookies, you'll be overjoyed.
If you want to defend osu, here are its upsides:
1. very easy to use map editor
2. built-in irc client + multiplayer with servers
3. map uploading server
4. ability to spectate other players
All of those are things that other rhythm games tend to lack and I'd love if they had them.
However osu has downsides in other aspects such as:
1. very limited skinning
2. default and cap map settings that lead to bad habits and hurt improvement rate
3. low mapping standards
4. immature community
All of those downsides sometimes make osu frustrating to play or talk about with others, but if you simply ignore all the annoying people and only play with friends, ignore all the shitty maps and only play the good ones, use logical map settings and try to play well, and find a decent skin, then osu can feel like a pretty alright game that's fun to spend time on.
So there you go. Here's a fair criticism. Now quit 4K because it's shit, come play 7K and join LR2. we have cookies, you'll be overjoyed.
I think you misspelled "literally non-existent"Aqo wrote:
3. low mapping standards
osu! is just more player friendly. It's like having autoaim in shooter games. Thats why it's taken as a joke. Where the players come from, stepmania, o2jam, or LR2, you dont get the friendly game mechanics mania has.
In a nutshell:
Imagine playing shooter game with no gui and a shooter game with gui and autoaim.
In a nutshell:
Imagine playing shooter game with no gui and a shooter game with gui and autoaim.
what are you even talking aboutabraker wrote:
osu! is just more player friendly. It's like having autoaim in shooter games. Thats why it's taken as a joke. Where the players come from, stepmania, o2jam, or LR2, you dont get the friendly game mechanics mania has.
In a nutshell:
Imagine playing shooter game with no gui and a shooter game with gui and autoaim.
did you forget to turn off auto mod?
he's probably talking about mashing being easy, clearing being easy and the way that long notes work.Hestia- wrote:
what are you even talking about
did you forget to turn off auto mod?
Osu!Mania is so fun c:
Just ignore the "yolostepmaniaisbetterandosumaniaisshit" ppl and you will have fun ^-^
Just ignore the "yolostepmaniaisbetterandosumaniaisshit" ppl and you will have fun ^-^
Yea, I probably exagerated it a bit too much.OperaMini0 wrote:
he's probably talking about mashing being easy, clearing being easy and the way that long notes work.Hestia- wrote:
what are you even talking about
did you forget to turn off auto mod?
mashing being easy = you will get shit score anywayOperaMini0 wrote:
he's probably talking about mashing being easy, clearing being easy and the way that long notes work.Hestia- wrote:
what are you even talking about
did you forget to turn off auto mod?
clearing being easy = HP10 is so easy ;<
Long notes = atleast they are better than Stepmania holds LMFAO /me runz
just having fun of this thread
and you are one of themTidek wrote:
- and space time lovers
See, the funny thing is that we have standards. They're just the wrong standards. It makes me sad to see good maps forever stuck in the graveyard because of the absurd rules we have for ranking maps here. Having a full difficulty spread doesn't mean that every difficulty in that map is going to be good quality and fun to play. Neither does requiring hitsounds. Neither does the modding process for that matter. There are dozens of unranked beatmaps that are more fun than the majority of ranked maps out there that nobody plays because if your map isn't ranked, 95% of the community will never know it exists.Redon wrote:
I think you misspelled "literally non-existent"Aqo wrote:
3. low mapping standards
Ok, serious now
@Bobbias
To be honest, most of people who are complaining about what you called "ranking standards" dont have a single map ranked and they have no idea how that process look like. I can agree that 2 years ago ranking process was very restricted and it was impossible to rank something harder, but unfortunately those people still live in past, at the moment ranking really hard stuff isnt that problematic like it was 2 years ago (of course, its still not perfect). Just look on standard mode and some new ranked mania maps.
(for me its more being a lazy ass, because I dont believe that if you can map good hard diff then you cant make anything easier same good)
@Bobbias
To be honest, most of people who are complaining about what you called "ranking standards" dont have a single map ranked and they have no idea how that process look like. I can agree that 2 years ago ranking process was very restricted and it was impossible to rank something harder, but unfortunately those people still live in past, at the moment ranking really hard stuff isnt that problematic like it was 2 years ago (of course, its still not perfect). Just look on standard mode and some new ranked mania maps.
It makes me sad to see good maps forever stuck in the graveyard because of the absurd rules we have for ranking maps here.Most of very good maps are stuck in graveyard not because they are unrankable or something (because they are EASILY rankable these times), but cause of that mappers are too lazy to push map forward into the ranking process and they prefer to complain on forum that how the ranking process is bad here instead of push map forward, its funny lol. (rest of maps are dump/overmap stuff, but there isnt a lot of them)
Having a full difficulty spread doesn't mean that every difficulty in that map is going to be good quality and fun to play.What do you mean here? If mapper is scared that easier difficulties wont be as good as his the hardest difficulty, then ask for GD? There is a lot of options.
(for me its more being a lazy ass, because I dont believe that if you can map good hard diff then you cant make anything easier same good)
Neither does requiring hitsounds.Well, agree, But since we have some tools that makes doing it a lot easier and faster, then I dont care honestly lol (unless its a marathon map)
Neither does the modding process for that matter.Modding process isnt necessary thing in a ranking process, for example t/382232 Its all depends of quality of map.
Saying that certain standards are wrong but doing nothing against it is redundant, Bobbias. Nevermind how obvious it might be for an experienced person. Coming from Taiko, I can actually understand yours and other people's feeling in this matter when certain standards in osu! interfer with the gamemode you like and might even disturb its evolvement. It's especially a problem for older people like us, who come from older communities with possible more refined standards in certain matters, which can sometimes even lead to heated discussions. But that doesn't mean that you can't treat these problems and request certain changes or find a middle way in some way. Especially for someone who is -as I heared- so well known in the mania community like you, Bobbias, who probably has a lot of experience as well, should it be possible to help this community and lead it into an approximately right direction.
So instead of taking it as it is, people should treat the problems. Taking action. Else, if this isn't possible, I would just refer to what Aqo said.
So instead of taking it as it is, people should treat the problems. Taking action. Else, if this isn't possible, I would just refer to what Aqo said.
20 modding queue posts and 5 personal requests and no modsTidek wrote:
mappers are too lazy to push map forward into the ranking process
#lazyness
osumania dongs
E: my 101st shitpost here
E: my 101st shitpost here
I dont want to know which queues and which ppl you were requesting lolAqo wrote:
20 modding queue posts and 5 personal requests and no modsTidek wrote:
mappers are too lazy to push map forward into the ranking process
#lazyness
just wanted to respond to a few choice comments:
Osu!mania has been out for what, a bit over 2 years now? 2 years is hardly any time for a community in a game like this to develop it's overall understanding of the subtlties of making charts for music games. And it's very apparent even in many of the 'experienced mappers' here.
True, but not having mods makes it very hard for a map to get BN attention. Not to mention how few mappers could actually make something that deserves to be ranked as is.
I'm referring to the many players who actually don't understand mapping particularly well. It's very common for new mappers to believe that they're making good maps when they're making something only barely rankable after various mods. It's common that whichever difficulty they focused on ends up being the best in their map.Tidek wrote:
Ok, serious nowHaving a full difficulty spread doesn't mean that every difficulty in that map is going to be good quality and fun to play.What do you mean here? If mapper is scared that easier difficulties wont be as good as his the hardest difficulty, then ask for GD? There is a lot of options.
(for me its more being a lazy ass, because I dont believe that if you can map good hard diff then you cant make anything easier same good)
Osu!mania has been out for what, a bit over 2 years now? 2 years is hardly any time for a community in a game like this to develop it's overall understanding of the subtlties of making charts for music games. And it's very apparent even in many of the 'experienced mappers' here.
Neither does the modding process for that matter.Modding process isnt necessary thing in a ranking process, for example t/382232 Its all depends of quality of map.[/quote]
True, but not having mods makes it very hard for a map to get BN attention. Not to mention how few mappers could actually make something that deserves to be ranked as is.
Much of my issues are with the ranking criteria or ranking process design, and are with decisions already made which I disagree with. I voiced my disagreements in threads while those issues were discussed and was denied, usually with little in the way of proper explanation. Since then I've taken to pointing out the issues publicly because there's no other real option for me. I can't make loctav or peppy change their mind by 'doing something' other than trying to point out where their decisions are causing problems.OnosakiHito wrote:
Saying that certain standards are wrong but doing nothing against it is redundant, Bobbias. Nevermind how obvious it might be for an experienced person. Coming from Taiko, I can actually understand yours and other people's feeling in this matter when certain standards in osu! interfer with the gamemode you like and might even disturb its evolvement. It's especially a problem for older people like us, who come from older communities with possible more refined standards in certain matters, which can sometimes even lead to heated discussions. But that doesn't mean that you can't treat these problems and request certain changes or find a middle way in some way. Especially for someone who is -as I heared- so well known in the mania community like you, Bobbias, who probably has a lot of experience as well, should it be possible to help this community and lead it into an approximately right direction.
So instead of taking it as it is, people should treat the problems. Taking action. Else, if this isn't possible, I would just refer to what Aqo said.
You can play certain parts semi-precisely and use your super strategic mashing strats to mainly non-rainbow 300 parts that would usually need skillful precision for super cool S ranks!Tidek wrote:
mashing being easy = you will get shit score anyway
With the hp refilling back up within seconds leaving no punishment at all! please replace or remove this abomination of a hp barTidek wrote:
clearing being easy = HP10 is so easy ;<
comparing shit with trash!Tidek wrote:
Long notes = atleast they are better than Stepmania holds LMFAO /me runz
This actually sums it up really wellabraker wrote:
osu! is just more player friendly. It's like having autoaim in shooter games. Thats why it's taken as a joke. Where the players come from, stepmania, o2jam, or LR2, you dont get the friendly game mechanics mania has.
In a nutshell:
Imagine playing shooter game with no gui and a shooter game with gui and autoaim.
My personal feeling is that mashing is also easy in o2jam.
At least osumania has a relatively tight judgment standard, although still easier than LR2/IIDX.
At least osumania has a relatively tight judgment standard, although still easier than LR2/IIDX.
osu mania defense is unfair
[Crz]Kemo wrote:
My personal feeling is that mashing is also easy in o2jam.
At least osumania has a relatively tight judgment standard, although still easier than LR2/IIDX.
you think so ? i can easy pass lvl 35-40 converts in osu but i die to almost all of them in O2jam if u play on HX and the Song has high BPM than u die easy and fast + very low HP regen. the fact is if u mash in o2jam u will lose faster HP than missing in o2jam because a Bad (50) let you lose more HP than a miss
In O2Jam on hx (life drain is different for each difficulty), It's very punishing to miss, especially if you miss an LN. What Kemo means by mashing is mashing the correct pattern with bad timing. The BPM must be quite high before the timing windows in o2jam become anywhere near as strict as timing usually is in o!m, so it's easy to hit all goods in o2jam and still be 'mashing' by o!m standards.
The difference I'm pointing out is that while some people think of mashing only as being unable to hit a pattern at all and just flailing at the keyboard to pass, some people consider anything less than very accurately playing the pattern to be mashing.
The difference I'm pointing out is that while some people think of mashing only as being unable to hit a pattern at all and just flailing at the keyboard to pass, some people consider anything less than very accurately playing the pattern to be mashing.
Bobbias wrote:
some people consider anything less than very accurately playing the pattern to be mashing.
ahhh ok i understand now ty for pointing it out
Look its this thread again. Starts off with some stupid topic then derails to hating/defending the game and 2009 memes.
Literally every week its the same thing.
jej
Literally every week its the same thing.
jej
Thanks a lot for explaining hahaBobbias wrote:
In O2Jam on hx (life drain is different for each difficulty), It's very punishing to miss, especially if you miss an LN. What Kemo means by mashing is mashing the correct pattern with bad timing. The BPM must be quite high before the timing windows in o2jam become anywhere near as strict as timing usually is in o!m, so it's easy to hit all goods in o2jam and still be 'mashing' by o!m standards.
The difference I'm pointing out is that while some people think of mashing only as being unable to hit a pattern at all and just flailing at the keyboard to pass, some people consider anything less than very accurately playing the pattern to be mashing.
I feel like this is true of any game with non-zero player base so I guess we should be happy about it. BRIGHT SIDE !?Cuppp wrote:
Look its this thread again. Starts off with some stupid topic then derails to hating/defending the game and 2009 memes.
Literally every week its the same thing.
I've been living under a rock, i never knew there was conflict between players from different platforms lol. One question though "But why?"
As someone who's played SM, O2Jam and o!m for some time, let me try to explain to the best of my understanding.
When experienced players and charters from that community see what passes for quality beatmaps in osu!mania, they generally have a negative reaction for several reasons. Stepmania is still an active community, and is also fairly old now. This means that the charting community for stepmania has had many years to learn and refine their charting. Stylistically, stepmania has a few differences in charting from osu!mania. Stepmania has very different hold mechanics, and tends to be sparing with how holds are used in their charts because of those mechanics. On top of that, because the stepmania community has had so long to refine their charting, they tend to have a very deep understanding of patterning and chart structure that has not yet developed in the osu!mania community.
Osu!mania is seen as somewhat of an annoying upstart community. Osu was always seen as a bit of a joke by the stepmania community because of it's casual appeal.
I think the reason that the o2jam community has had a much less negative reaction than the stepmania community comes mostly because o2jam is more or less a dead game. Since the o2jam community is fragmented across many different private servers, each of which has it's own song list (with a limited number of songs on each server), osu!mania has some positives over o2jam. Since each server has a limited amount of songs, that means that it's more work for players to be able to play all the other songs in o2jam. You need different clients for different servers, and playing solo takes a bit of work to get up as well. And on top of all that, it's difficult to get into charting for o2jam, because the official tools are garbage, and it's a pain to learn BMS charting tools and then find a converter (which is the alternative to using the official tools), so the charting community has not been able to develop the way stepmania's has.
Compare that with stepmania, where there's no song limits, thousands of charts going back many years, the game is still in active development (not as active as osu, but still active), and the charting community is better developed than o2jam's, and you'll see why the stepmania community in particular has a different reaction to osu!mania.
Another issue is that lately stepmania has been seeing a decline in players, while osu!mania has been drawing more and more players in. If you think stepmania is a flat out better game, of course you're going to be bothered seeing a game you consider inferior growing faster than your game is.
To sum things up, it's a combination of jealousy that osu!mania is successful, the lack of overall mapping community development (which the osu!mania community is largely blind to), the casual appeal of osu, and some amount of elitism.
When experienced players and charters from that community see what passes for quality beatmaps in osu!mania, they generally have a negative reaction for several reasons. Stepmania is still an active community, and is also fairly old now. This means that the charting community for stepmania has had many years to learn and refine their charting. Stylistically, stepmania has a few differences in charting from osu!mania. Stepmania has very different hold mechanics, and tends to be sparing with how holds are used in their charts because of those mechanics. On top of that, because the stepmania community has had so long to refine their charting, they tend to have a very deep understanding of patterning and chart structure that has not yet developed in the osu!mania community.
Osu!mania is seen as somewhat of an annoying upstart community. Osu was always seen as a bit of a joke by the stepmania community because of it's casual appeal.
I think the reason that the o2jam community has had a much less negative reaction than the stepmania community comes mostly because o2jam is more or less a dead game. Since the o2jam community is fragmented across many different private servers, each of which has it's own song list (with a limited number of songs on each server), osu!mania has some positives over o2jam. Since each server has a limited amount of songs, that means that it's more work for players to be able to play all the other songs in o2jam. You need different clients for different servers, and playing solo takes a bit of work to get up as well. And on top of all that, it's difficult to get into charting for o2jam, because the official tools are garbage, and it's a pain to learn BMS charting tools and then find a converter (which is the alternative to using the official tools), so the charting community has not been able to develop the way stepmania's has.
Compare that with stepmania, where there's no song limits, thousands of charts going back many years, the game is still in active development (not as active as osu, but still active), and the charting community is better developed than o2jam's, and you'll see why the stepmania community in particular has a different reaction to osu!mania.
Another issue is that lately stepmania has been seeing a decline in players, while osu!mania has been drawing more and more players in. If you think stepmania is a flat out better game, of course you're going to be bothered seeing a game you consider inferior growing faster than your game is.
To sum things up, it's a combination of jealousy that osu!mania is successful, the lack of overall mapping community development (which the osu!mania community is largely blind to), the casual appeal of osu, and some amount of elitism.
So someone linked me to this thread and I don't normally ever go on here but I'm gonna put my two cents in here, as a long-time Stepmania chart-artist.
A lot of the biggest problems Stepmania (or just the rhythm gaming community in general) sees in Osu! is that it's trying to create a monopoly of rhythm gaming simulators. It's trying to be every rhythm game ever, which demotivates any other person to create or expand on other simulators that features a lot more only because everyone plays on the "popular game". For example, how many of you guys know about Taiko Sanjirou or other Taiko simulators? I bet you guys haven't, which is a huge shame considering how good and close it is to the original games.
Another thing is the standard for charting this game has. From a lot of videos I've seen on charts (and ranked songs), all I can see for standards is just...a song, chart, and put a MAYBE relevant background image taken from somewhere without credit. Now, compare that to Stepmania's standard. We cut songs down to about 2 minutes similar to arcade lengths, stylize our graphics, and actually DO have a standard with charting, especially with the types of players that exists (pad players: requiring very specific patterning for players to be able to play them on your feet, and a multitude of keyboard players with MANY types of styles so charting standards vary different for each playstyle). Basically, we push ourselves to actually make our works look a bit professional at least.
Not only that, but the current Stepmania (Stepmania 5) has A LOT of features now, and a VERY FLEXIBLE engine to create themes with. You can compare something like the ITG3 theme for Stepmania, and then look at the DDR2013 theme that is possible because of the flexibility. It's not just simple reskins, these are huge projects done that look completely different from each other.
I think the best thing to do is to look at an example of a chart that is possible to do in the game now. Look at this chart that was made very recently. It's Undertale, so it will likely grab your interest:
Now I've never seen anyone make a chart like that in Osu ever. However, there is one chart that I really liked and I'll show you what it is and explain why. It is Don't Stop Me Now:
Why do I like this? Simply put, there was a lot of effort put into it and it looked very much like an EBA/Ouendan map. It is very professional looking, and on a song that I like, unlike the vast amounts of Nightcore garbage that exists out there with maps for god knows why. Admittedly, this is what got me to try out Osu! for a bit until I dropped it and uninstalled it a couple days later for reasons I'll state soon. But this is the kind of effort I want to see. This is the kind of standard I would appreciate, and would change my opinion on the game a little bit more. However, there are other issues which I'll state now.
Osu! has a combo-based scoring system. That is a HUGE no-no in the rhythm gaming community. Just because someone had a higher combo shouldn't judge a score if he missed a few at the very end or beginning compared to someone who missed ONCE or TWICE in the middle. That is unfair and very unhealthy, only better than card-collection based scoring (*cough cough Love Live cough*). Another thing is that the game allows for A LOT of artificial difficulty. IIRC, I heard you can set the life judgement in a map. That isn't good because it causes a lot of imbalances in mapping standards. A song can be hard not because of the map note-density or patterning, but because the health is too harsh so it could be easy to play but more unforgiving on the misses. That is a no-no.
The last is the community...not much to say here. I'll just put in some examples (community reaction to Konami's rightful takedown notice on their songs in this game, the one user trying to pass off FFR charts as his own and the community supporting him, etc).
Anyways, I'm just putting why I don't like this game at all and why I feel the rhythm gaming community has a VERY negative view on this game, and unfortunately I don't think it can be salvaged at this point so the negative stigma will remain for it's lifetime. Sorry man, but that's the sad truth. Now I'll be off, I forgot that I actually had an account here so I could try osu! way back in the day before uninstalling it a day after because of the terrible charting standard as well as not having a mouse at the time.
A lot of the biggest problems Stepmania (or just the rhythm gaming community in general) sees in Osu! is that it's trying to create a monopoly of rhythm gaming simulators. It's trying to be every rhythm game ever, which demotivates any other person to create or expand on other simulators that features a lot more only because everyone plays on the "popular game". For example, how many of you guys know about Taiko Sanjirou or other Taiko simulators? I bet you guys haven't, which is a huge shame considering how good and close it is to the original games.
Another thing is the standard for charting this game has. From a lot of videos I've seen on charts (and ranked songs), all I can see for standards is just...a song, chart, and put a MAYBE relevant background image taken from somewhere without credit. Now, compare that to Stepmania's standard. We cut songs down to about 2 minutes similar to arcade lengths, stylize our graphics, and actually DO have a standard with charting, especially with the types of players that exists (pad players: requiring very specific patterning for players to be able to play them on your feet, and a multitude of keyboard players with MANY types of styles so charting standards vary different for each playstyle). Basically, we push ourselves to actually make our works look a bit professional at least.
Not only that, but the current Stepmania (Stepmania 5) has A LOT of features now, and a VERY FLEXIBLE engine to create themes with. You can compare something like the ITG3 theme for Stepmania, and then look at the DDR2013 theme that is possible because of the flexibility. It's not just simple reskins, these are huge projects done that look completely different from each other.
I think the best thing to do is to look at an example of a chart that is possible to do in the game now. Look at this chart that was made very recently. It's Undertale, so it will likely grab your interest:
Now I've never seen anyone make a chart like that in Osu ever. However, there is one chart that I really liked and I'll show you what it is and explain why. It is Don't Stop Me Now:
Why do I like this? Simply put, there was a lot of effort put into it and it looked very much like an EBA/Ouendan map. It is very professional looking, and on a song that I like, unlike the vast amounts of Nightcore garbage that exists out there with maps for god knows why. Admittedly, this is what got me to try out Osu! for a bit until I dropped it and uninstalled it a couple days later for reasons I'll state soon. But this is the kind of effort I want to see. This is the kind of standard I would appreciate, and would change my opinion on the game a little bit more. However, there are other issues which I'll state now.
Osu! has a combo-based scoring system. That is a HUGE no-no in the rhythm gaming community. Just because someone had a higher combo shouldn't judge a score if he missed a few at the very end or beginning compared to someone who missed ONCE or TWICE in the middle. That is unfair and very unhealthy, only better than card-collection based scoring (*cough cough Love Live cough*). Another thing is that the game allows for A LOT of artificial difficulty. IIRC, I heard you can set the life judgement in a map. That isn't good because it causes a lot of imbalances in mapping standards. A song can be hard not because of the map note-density or patterning, but because the health is too harsh so it could be easy to play but more unforgiving on the misses. That is a no-no.
The last is the community...not much to say here. I'll just put in some examples (community reaction to Konami's rightful takedown notice on their songs in this game, the one user trying to pass off FFR charts as his own and the community supporting him, etc).
Anyways, I'm just putting why I don't like this game at all and why I feel the rhythm gaming community has a VERY negative view on this game, and unfortunately I don't think it can be salvaged at this point so the negative stigma will remain for it's lifetime. Sorry man, but that's the sad truth. Now I'll be off, I forgot that I actually had an account here so I could try osu! way back in the day before uninstalling it a day after because of the terrible charting standard as well as not having a mouse at the time.
People waste their time just to shit on other communities and their platform? That's actually quite sad.
Whether what people says it won't make any difference related to the gameplay or the community of the game; it's rather recommend to re-learn to enjoy the game you're playing, no matter what are the issues in the game. Bothering too much ruins stuff anyways.
Whether what people says it won't make any difference related to the gameplay or the community of the game; it's rather recommend to re-learn to enjoy the game you're playing, no matter what are the issues in the game. Bothering too much ruins stuff anyways.
tbh osu mania could have been a great game but the butchered gameplay and charts with questionable quality made it less attractive
nontheless i enjoy playing casually so not much to shit about it
nontheless i enjoy playing casually so not much to shit about it
Nah. Mania is still growing. And why did people comparing each games?, yes, song in stepmania has better pattern. But some won't be ranked in mania due to ghost note / inconsistency. Most of BN in mania asks for consistency as an integral part of your map. And about combo-based, it's not really weird, 2 players who get the same amount of 300g,300, and miss, but one had miss at mid and the other get it at the end part, means that the second player has better concentration. And replay never hurt anyone.
About standard mode's life judgement, yeah i have seen the issue, but in mania, it's not really an issue. Usually harder difficulty has higher od and hp, and if you can finish it, hp shouldn't be a problem. The problem is with od, but in the end low od won't help you finish hard song that you never get the pattern before.
About monopolizing, it's not really an issue since you can still play the other game, and it's not a problem if a game has several modes. It's one good part about osu!that it was not stuck at an idea. Don't talk bad if you are the one who can't accept any change in the world. Konami's takedown ? well, the song is licensed, but even some song also mapped in stepmania. That's why peppy asks us to map the song that has CC license, so you won't be scared from taking down. #osu and#osumania is more like an multiroom off-topic, it can't be helped. Harder maps ? even at this level, not many people can reach the hardest ranked beatmaps in mania. Just because the system is different from your previous games, doesn't mean you can easily talk bad about it. Relying heavily on LN ? then what ?. Just play it.
And osu! community is still way better than , like, DOTA2, LoL, and many others.
About standard mode's life judgement, yeah i have seen the issue, but in mania, it's not really an issue. Usually harder difficulty has higher od and hp, and if you can finish it, hp shouldn't be a problem. The problem is with od, but in the end low od won't help you finish hard song that you never get the pattern before.
About monopolizing, it's not really an issue since you can still play the other game, and it's not a problem if a game has several modes. It's one good part about osu!that it was not stuck at an idea. Don't talk bad if you are the one who can't accept any change in the world. Konami's takedown ? well, the song is licensed, but even some song also mapped in stepmania. That's why peppy asks us to map the song that has CC license, so you won't be scared from taking down. #osu and#osumania is more like an multiroom off-topic, it can't be helped. Harder maps ? even at this level, not many people can reach the hardest ranked beatmaps in mania. Just because the system is different from your previous games, doesn't mean you can easily talk bad about it. Relying heavily on LN ? then what ?. Just play it.
And osu! community is still way better than , like, DOTA2, LoL, and many others.
wtf is that post.
But o!m is a different game from say, BMS. So you can argue that going for S-ranks might be more important than passing and blah blah ahqwjeo
People aren't disliking the game because it's different, people dislike the game because it is inferior. The main thing osu!mania has compared to other rhythm games is its exquisite interface (IRCs and other things), which comes with osu in general.
There are good and bad charts in Stepmania as well. Don't use Yolomania and Nuclear Blast as representatives of what SM charting is, because it really isn't. Charts like Schur's Theorem, Quatre Mains and Run Run Run are examples of better SM charts. They are consistent as far I'm concerned, not to mention consistency isn't even that difficult of a rule to follow. Most inconsistencies are accidental, I'd imagine this being the same for o!m as well.Wind_14 wrote:
Nah. Mania is still growing. And why did people comparing each games?, yes, song in stepmania has better pattern. But some won't be ranked in mania due to ghost note / inconsistency. Most of BN in mania asks for consistency as an integral part of your map.
And about combo-based, it's not really weird, 2 players who get the same amount of 300g,300, and miss, but one had miss at mid and the other get it at the end part, means that the second player has better concentration. And replay never hurt anyone.So both players lapse their concentration in different areas, yet the second player has better focus...? That doesn't even make sense. The location of the miss should be irrelevant as long as they're playing the same chart; in fact you can argue that the person who misses in the harder section is worse than the person in the one who misses in a random section. That's another topic altogether anyway.
About standard mode's life judgement, yeah i have seen the issue, but in mania, it's not really an issue. Usually harder difficulty has higher od and hp, and if you can finish it, hp shouldn't be a problem. The problem is with od, but in the end low od won't help you finish hard song that you never get the pattern before.The problem is that people are saying that HP is too lenient, which is true. You literally cannot fail anything in this game unless it is way way too hard for you - and in multiple rhythm games passing is quite the achievement. Honestly the argument about HP and OD can be another thing altogether, but basically the game makes mashing completely viable because the early miss function fails at what it does (getting misses) and you can quadmash through anything even on HP8.5-9 and still pass. The fact that you can jumptrill all of AiAe and still pass says a lot about the gameplay in this game. Given, you'll get horrible accuracy - but the fact that you can actually get PP through jumptrilling a chart that is not a jumptrill chart is pretty silly.
But o!m is a different game from say, BMS. So you can argue that going for S-ranks might be more important than passing and blah blah ahqwjeo
About monopolizing, it's not really an issue since you can still play the other game, and it's not a problem if a game has several modes. It's one good part about osu!that it was not stuck at an idea. Don't talk bad if you are the one who can't accept any change in the world. Konami's takedown ? well, the song is licensed, but even some song also mapped in stepmania. That's why peppy asks us to map the song that has CC license, so you won't be scared from taking down.I do agree that the people bashing osu!mania are definitely irrational about it, they can be dissatisfied with how osu!mania is more popular and other things but openly disliking it is a bit dumb. I do think osu!mania has a good amount of potential, but it requires quite the overhaul in terms of gameplay mechanics and a lot more time for charting quality to improve drastically.
People aren't disliking the game because it's different, people dislike the game because it is inferior. The main thing osu!mania has compared to other rhythm games is its exquisite interface (IRCs and other things), which comes with osu in general.
#osu and#osumania is more like an multiroom off-topic, it can't be helped. Harder maps ? even at this level, not many people can reach the hardest ranked beatmaps in mania.Completely pointless part of your argument, even the medium-range charts are not very good in my opinion.
Just because the system is different from your previous games, doesn't mean you can easily talk bad about it. Relying heavily on LN ? then what ?. Just play it.People dislike the game because the general map quality is lower than the ones in StepMania and maybe some other rhythm games. The patterns are generally far more appropriate and playable (very little arbitrary one hand trill patterning, very pitch relevant note placements, extremely smooth patterning as a whole, better song choices which create for better charts and overall just more musically relevant charting). Relying heavily on LNs are not much of a problem if the gimmick works. The gimmick generally doesn't work for 4K by nature because of how restrictive 4K charting is already. Having a long note in 4 columns gives you only 3 columns to work with and you can only work with 1 finger on one hand and 2 fingers on the other. That is insanely restrictive, hence why people dislike the LN gimmick. It is not because it is different, it is because it does not work well with the given medium you have.
if i'm not wrong someone says that he/she is laughing when he opens #osu, well, what you should do there actually ? and some people said that "osumania isn't hard enough ". We are still improving. I'll try the pack you suggested.Shoegazer wrote:
#osu and#osumania is more like an multiroom off-topic, it can't be helped. Harder maps ? even at this level, not many people can reach the hardest ranked beatmaps in mania.Completely pointless part of your argument, even the medium-range charts are not very good in my opinion.
I'm sure peppy use combo-based because he want osumania as a different yet identical mode from standard, thus most gameplay in mania should be identic to the standard. And it's harder to keep the combo from standard mode, from several days of trying standard. About hp, should we give 10 to all maps ?about od, if it's true that it's still easy enough, so should we increase all of them to 10 ? after all, it's the BN and QAT who thinks that the hp and od right now is enough.
well osu standard doesnt have a 1000k max score system and adding an arbitrary score system that doesnt accurately represent your 'skill' just for the sake of consistensy does not make it a good game design.
Also the hp problem is not much on the hp drain/hp recovery but the on fact that the game barely punishes mindless mashing (ie. poor in lr2/iidx) thus making a clear less rewarding and hindering a player's chance to improve on their skills
Also the hp problem is not much on the hp drain/hp recovery but the on fact that the game barely punishes mindless mashing (ie. poor in lr2/iidx) thus making a clear less rewarding and hindering a player's chance to improve on their skills
Just wanna point out that osumania scoring is NOT combo based, osu is. They are different. In fact even though o!m is kinda crude and imperfect in other aspects, its scoring system is one of the best and the most balanced I've ever seen. It combines the evaluation of accuracy, combo, and consistency, especially compared to the scoring system of o2jam(mostly combo based) and LR2(completely acc-based). (Never played stepmania much so idk)Shoegazer wrote:
And about combo-based, it's not really weird, 2 players who get the same amount of 300g,300, and miss, but one had miss at mid and the other get it at the end part, means that the second player has better concentration. And replay never hurt anyone.So both players lapse their concentration in different areas, yet the second player has better focus...? That doesn't even make sense. The location of the miss should be irrelevant as long as they're playing the same chart; in fact you can argue that the person who misses in the harder section is worse than the person in the one who misses in a random section. That's another topic altogether anyway.
You've been taking it too far. The "LNs doesn't work for 4k" argument is a little bit too assertive. Maybe that's true for Stepmania, but 4k is NOT Stepmania! You probably don't know that there's a 4k community in China that plays a game called "Myo2", which, as you can tell by its name, is basically the 4k version of o2jam, with LN heavy mapping style and lenient accuracy. They have plenty of beautifully charted LN maps(and non LN maps as well), which is fun, challenging, and musically relevant.Shoegazer wrote:
Relying heavily on LNs are not much of a problem if the gimmick works. The gimmick generally doesn't work for 4K by nature because of how restrictive 4K charting is already. Having a long note in 4 columns gives you only 3 columns to work with and you can only work with 1 finger on one hand and 2 fingers on the other. That is insanely restrictive, hence why people dislike the LN gimmick. It is not because it is different, it is because it does not work well with the given medium you have.
I just wanna say that Stepmania mapping is a STYLE not a STANDARD. My personal opinion is that not using LNs will significantly reduce the diversity of patterns. And moreover in some cases you just can't be musically relevant if you don't use LNs in order to fit the layering of the song.
But still, I like stepmania maps, they are fun to play. I just don't quite agree with the general attitude of some of the players toward LNs.
I was mainly directing that part of the quote to that argument about how missing at different locations won't make that much of a difference overall. I'm aware of how the osu!mania scoring system works. It's a good system for what it is, but I strongly dislike how misses penalise so much (funnily enough the percentage system has the opposite issue, misses penalise too little) and 200s penalise too little. Because of that I've always used percentage as a better measure of score. Is a subjective argument though, both systems have its flaws. I think the percentage system in o!m is better than any other scoring system at the moment for what it's worth, the SM DP% system outclasses the scoring system (not percentage) in osu!mania for me.[Crz]Kemo wrote:
Just wanna point out that osumania scoring is NOT combo based, osu is. They are different. In fact even though o!m is kinda crude and imperfect in other aspects, its scoring system is one of the best and the most balanced I've ever seen. It combines the evaluation of accuracy, combo, and consistency, especially compared to the scoring system of o2jam(mostly combo based) and LR2(completely acc-based). (Never played stepmania much so idk)
You've been taking it too far. The "LNs doesn't work for 4k" argument is a little bit too assertive. Maybe that's true for Stepmania, but 4k is NOT Stepmania! You probably don't know that there's a 4k community in China that plays a game called "Myo2", which, as you can tell by its name, is basically the 4k version of o2jam, with LN heavy mapping style and lenient accuracy. They have plenty of beautifully charted LN maps(and non LN maps as well), which is fun, challenging, and musically relevant.My phrasing probably came off the wrong way because I overemphasised some parts, but the reason I have this jaded impression of LNs in 4K is mainly because how fundamentally restrictive it is. I agree that there are some nice LN charts out there, but they seem like a rarity to me and generally speaking I prefer them not being used because of how easily it could be messed up. Any given style of charting can create very good charts if done properly yes, but I just haven't seen enough charts that use LNs as their gimmick (for the lack of a better term) to really convince me that LN charting is an extremely viable charting style, rather than just novelty.
Again, not denying that LN charting is bad - I just don't see how well you can really use LNs a good amount of times and make it fluid and enjoyable to play through. I can think of some examples for sure, but there are generally better (subjective but still) options.
I just wanna say that Stepmania mapping is a STYLE not a STANDARD. My personal opinion is that not using LNs will significantly reduce the diversity of patterns. And moreover in some cases you just can't be musically relevant if you don't use LNs in order to fit the layering of the song.You're right, Stepmania mapping isn't a standard - it is a style. I never disagreed with that. There are times where LNs are appropriate (and I could name off a ton of charts that benefitted from LNs), but I feel that LNs should be sparsely used because of how restrictive your finger motions are in general instead of being a full blown charting style. Again, this is because I've never seen LNs being used in a very intricate/fluent way - I would like to be proven wrong.
What about making a new score system that doesn't rely on combo? If the score doesn't rely on combo, then it can be calculated entirely by the distribution of the judgments in a play (so a score wipe wouldn't be needed if it was implemented).Shoegazer wrote:
I was mainly directing that part of the quote to that argument about how missing at different locations won't make that much of a difference overall. I'm aware of how the osu!mania scoring system works. It's a good system for what it is, but I strongly dislike how misses penalise so much (funnily enough the percentage system has the opposite issue, misses penalise too little) and 200s penalise too little. Because of that I've always used percentage as a better measure of score. Is a subjective argument though, both systems have its flaws. I think the percentage system in o!m is better than any other scoring system at the moment for what it's worth, the SM DP% system outclasses the scoring system (not percentage) in osu!mania for me.
Score System Proposal
Instead of assigning each judgment value for each hit an arbitrary value (for example: a 300g a base value of 320, a 300 a 300, etc...), look at the timing windows of each judgment, so one can give a score based on the estimation of accuracy based on the distribution of the judgments in the play.
Because of the central limit theorem, the distribution of the hit errors would be close a Normal Distribution (experimentally, it seems like the real distributions tend to have heavier tails than a Normal Distribution, the amount of misses players tend to have is higher than predicted; this is not really an issue for the purposes here, though). The mean of the distribution would be ~0 ms (since players adjust their offset to correct for the average error), so the standard deviation (Unstable Rate in game terms) alone can be used to describe how accurate a player is (the lower the standard deviation, the more accurate a player is).
With that, it's possible to perform a maximum-likelihood estimation based on the distribution of the judgments obtained to calculate the standard deviation.
Note: it's possible to perform a maximum-likelihood estimation without assuming the mean is 0ms, and use the RMS of the error instead of just the standard deviation, but this makes calculation the considerably harder and expensive to calculate (and I don't think this would be really needed here).
A MISS would be considered as if the player hit the note, but the timing was so off it was outside the time window of a 50 (the system can't tell the difference between being extremely off in the timing, or not hitting a note at all; the penalty for a MISS is considerable in the case assumed)
With that, we have a measure of accuracy (Standard Deviation/Unstable Rate that makes the distribution of scores the most likely), now we can scale the result arbitrarily without affecting the balance of the results.
A possible scaling would be one that is based on the "Base Score" of the current mania scoring sytem:
1000000 * (320*Probability_of_300g + 300*Probability_of_300 + ... ) / (320 * Amount_of_Judgments)
Here the probabilities of the scaling always assume OD10 (it could use any other OD), fixing a OD instead of using the one of the play has the advantage of enabling comparing different scores in the same map if the ODs are different (it would enable to comparing EZ/HR and No-Mod scores directly, except for cases of very high accuracy, for reasons explained below). If the OD of a map is 10, and a play has a close to perfect Normal Distribution of hit errors, then this scale gives about the same values as the "Base Score" of the current scoring system (multiplied by two, since Base Score ranges from 0 to 500000).
Another possible scaling is using one based on the "Ex-score" of IIDX/LR2, the advantage of this scale is that the difference between high-accuracy scores is higher (For example, with the osu!mania scaling, 990000 is pretty close to 998000, even though the later score is much better). (Note: since the formula here is just a scaling, it doesn't have the same weakness as the LR2 formula, where misses barely matter at all, and there is no difference between a miss or other bad accuracy judgment).
The formula for the LR2-Based scale would be:
1000000 * (2*Probability_of_300g + Probability_of_300) / (2 * Amount_of_Judgments)
The difference between the "Base Scaling" and "LR2-Based Scale" here doesn't really affect things much, the only moment where it matters which scale to use would be in team multiplayer matches, where the score of the players are added together.
Note that the previous calculation is similar to the "Expected Unstable Rate" I made some years ago, but with some important differences:
Examples of results using the formula proposed:
(300g, 300, 200, 100, 50, MISS). All results use the "LR2-based scale", and OD8 for the plays considered.
(495, 5, 0, 0, 0, 0) -> 995000
(499, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0) -> 994563 (Note: when using OD 10, the score with 1 200 is actually better than the score with 5 300s)
(499, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0) -> 983084
(499, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0) -> 968606
(499, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1) -> 954903
Applied to leaderboards (Empress, and Anemone):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wbz4ra1tqeb0r ... .xlsx?dl=0
The main issue would be implementation and performance, the code I wrote in Mathematica takes up to ~100ms (about 32ms average) on my laptop to calculate a single score, and uses calculations with 70 decimal digits of precision (double-precision floating-point numbers aren't accurate enough to perform the numerical minimization of the likelihood function); Mathematica supports only either double-precision or arbitrary precision calculations, implementing the same code with other number formats (such as binary256) could make things faster. Taking that amount of time to calculate the value might not allow the score to be shown in real time during play (only at the results screen), and calculating the values for the current ranked scores would take a while.
Because of the central limit theorem, the distribution of the hit errors would be close a Normal Distribution (experimentally, it seems like the real distributions tend to have heavier tails than a Normal Distribution, the amount of misses players tend to have is higher than predicted; this is not really an issue for the purposes here, though). The mean of the distribution would be ~0 ms (since players adjust their offset to correct for the average error), so the standard deviation (Unstable Rate in game terms) alone can be used to describe how accurate a player is (the lower the standard deviation, the more accurate a player is).
With that, it's possible to perform a maximum-likelihood estimation based on the distribution of the judgments obtained to calculate the standard deviation.
Note: it's possible to perform a maximum-likelihood estimation without assuming the mean is 0ms, and use the RMS of the error instead of just the standard deviation, but this makes calculation the considerably harder and expensive to calculate (and I don't think this would be really needed here).
A MISS would be considered as if the player hit the note, but the timing was so off it was outside the time window of a 50 (the system can't tell the difference between being extremely off in the timing, or not hitting a note at all; the penalty for a MISS is considerable in the case assumed)
With that, we have a measure of accuracy (Standard Deviation/Unstable Rate that makes the distribution of scores the most likely), now we can scale the result arbitrarily without affecting the balance of the results.
A possible scaling would be one that is based on the "Base Score" of the current mania scoring sytem:
1000000 * (320*Probability_of_300g + 300*Probability_of_300 + ... ) / (320 * Amount_of_Judgments)
Here the probabilities of the scaling always assume OD10 (it could use any other OD), fixing a OD instead of using the one of the play has the advantage of enabling comparing different scores in the same map if the ODs are different (it would enable to comparing EZ/HR and No-Mod scores directly, except for cases of very high accuracy, for reasons explained below). If the OD of a map is 10, and a play has a close to perfect Normal Distribution of hit errors, then this scale gives about the same values as the "Base Score" of the current scoring system (multiplied by two, since Base Score ranges from 0 to 500000).
Another possible scaling is using one based on the "Ex-score" of IIDX/LR2, the advantage of this scale is that the difference between high-accuracy scores is higher (For example, with the osu!mania scaling, 990000 is pretty close to 998000, even though the later score is much better). (Note: since the formula here is just a scaling, it doesn't have the same weakness as the LR2 formula, where misses barely matter at all, and there is no difference between a miss or other bad accuracy judgment).
The formula for the LR2-Based scale would be:
1000000 * (2*Probability_of_300g + Probability_of_300) / (2 * Amount_of_Judgments)
The difference between the "Base Scaling" and "LR2-Based Scale" here doesn't really affect things much, the only moment where it matters which scale to use would be in team multiplayer matches, where the score of the players are added together.
Note that the previous calculation is similar to the "Expected Unstable Rate" I made some years ago, but with some important differences:
- The Expected Unstable Rate estimated the standard deviation based on the Base Score of a play (which uses the arbitrary values of 320, 300, 200, etc... and the values of those judgments actually affect the balance of the results), while this uses the distribution of the judgments. Both calculations tend to give similar results, but when the distribution of judgments of a play is farther from a perfect Normal Distribution, the calculation here gives more accurate results (this is specially important with misses or very bad accuracy judgments, the Base Score is very insensitive to the amount of those judgments).
- The Expected Unstable Rate was based on the median (or other percentiles) of the Binomial Distribution associated with the amount of 300g judgments obtained. The median is more robust to results that are just a fluke (For example, if a play consists of only 200 300g judgments, the unstable rate that makes this the most likely is 0, which makes it 100% likely; but, even with a higher unstable rate, such as 50, the chances of getting 200 300g in a row are more than 50%, so it is very likely the real Unstable Rate of a play was higher than 0). The difference in the results obtained because of this is only noticeable with very high accuracies (or very low amount of objects, less than 50). For the purposes here, taking this into account is not really needed, and it would make the calculation formula more complex (when calculating pp, this is very important, though; also it would be important when mixing plays with different mods in the same leaderboard). Accounting for this in the formula is possible, but would make the calculation take a bit longer.
Examples of results using the formula proposed:
(300g, 300, 200, 100, 50, MISS). All results use the "LR2-based scale", and OD8 for the plays considered.
(495, 5, 0, 0, 0, 0) -> 995000
(499, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0) -> 994563 (Note: when using OD 10, the score with 1 200 is actually better than the score with 5 300s)
(499, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0) -> 983084
(499, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0) -> 968606
(499, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1) -> 954903
Applied to leaderboards (Empress, and Anemone):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wbz4ra1tqeb0r ... .xlsx?dl=0
The main issue would be implementation and performance, the code I wrote in Mathematica takes up to ~100ms (about 32ms average) on my laptop to calculate a single score, and uses calculations with 70 decimal digits of precision (double-precision floating-point numbers aren't accurate enough to perform the numerical minimization of the likelihood function); Mathematica supports only either double-precision or arbitrary precision calculations, implementing the same code with other number formats (such as binary256) could make things faster. Taking that amount of time to calculate the value might not allow the score to be shown in real time during play (only at the results screen), and calculating the values for the current ranked scores would take a while.
Speaking of proposals: I'd like to ask everybody to chart their maps in editors for other games and provide the files with their map, because .osu files suck.
Osu files are timed to the millisecond(not some fraction of millisecond, just whole millisecond), as opposed to proper measure timing like the music it's charted to, or every big rhythm game ever that isn't osu. This means that unless you're lucky and fit the tiny amount of BPM's and measures that have round values in milliseconds, your stuff will be mistimed. And since this isn't going away because it's most likely an engine limitation, which would break all existing maps if fixed, we should all chart our stuff in other editors and use the built-in converters. I'm suggesting iBMSC and/or Stepmania's built-in editor, because there's plenty of games that take them, and because there's converters for them as well(the BMS one is built into the osu editor). Before you say "using other game's editor is ridiculous", check how O2Jam charts are made.
If you don't believe me, open any .osu file for any game mode(they all share this flaw) in notepad or something like that and/or look at the wiki(inb4 they remove or change it).
And yes, you can put other files in the folder and still have Bancho take them, val0108 had a map with a zip of his skin in it.
Osu files are timed to the millisecond(not some fraction of millisecond, just whole millisecond), as opposed to proper measure timing like the music it's charted to, or every big rhythm game ever that isn't osu. This means that unless you're lucky and fit the tiny amount of BPM's and measures that have round values in milliseconds, your stuff will be mistimed. And since this isn't going away because it's most likely an engine limitation, which would break all existing maps if fixed, we should all chart our stuff in other editors and use the built-in converters. I'm suggesting iBMSC and/or Stepmania's built-in editor, because there's plenty of games that take them, and because there's converters for them as well(the BMS one is built into the osu editor). Before you say "using other game's editor is ridiculous", check how O2Jam charts are made.
If you don't believe me, open any .osu file for any game mode(they all share this flaw) in notepad or something like that and/or look at the wiki(inb4 they remove or change it).
And yes, you can put other files in the folder and still have Bancho take them, val0108 had a map with a zip of his skin in it.
Couldn't you have just posted this in the general discussion? This thread is absolute garbage and there's no need for this to be open any longer.
100% true, we can move this to the general discussion thread now, I am closing this !Valedict wrote:
Couldn't you have just posted this in the general discussion? This thread is absolute garbage and there's no need for this to be open any longer.