This makes complete sense. It's very challenging to map easy diffs that fit into the current criteria, whilst also being viable in terms of actual difficulty spread. It almost forces mappers to create difficulties that fit the criteria, instead of creating maps that have smooth bridges from one difficulty into the next. It's extremely challenging for a mapper like myself to determine which is the appropriate course of action: do I map to create difficulties fitting to the song, or do I map to create star ratings for difficulties to fit ranking criteria? Not an easy choice to make. Not a wise choice to make.
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[Rule Change] Lowest diff must be below 2.0 stars(Taiko&ctb)
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I know I once mapped a 150 3:18 min Futsuu
300 objects, kiai had quite some 3/4, it became over 3 stars. It was just 0.05 less then muzu, which had almost 700 notes, mostly 1/2 triplets and 1/2 "streams"
YES PLEASE
300 objects, kiai had quite some 3/4, it became over 3 stars. It was just 0.05 less then muzu, which had almost 700 notes, mostly 1/2 triplets and 1/2 "streams"
YES PLEASE
This seems to be a problem more related to the star rating system rather than the ranking criteria itself. Just saying this from what I have read in this thread about the odd behaviour of the way star difficulty is calculated. May I ask why taiko pp cant be changed any time soon?
I thought Mania was the only gamemode with a good-for-nothing SR system, but I guess I was wrong.
Shohei Ohtani
Please keep posts in here to actual discussion, not just snarky side comments [/MicroModding]
Anyways, i feel this should be a guideline. It happens in osu!standard in the opposite way, where the lowest difficulty is under 2 stars, but is unsuitable for the lowest diff. BN, in a system that actually works, SHOULD be able to generally determine if a diff is too hard or easy for players in relation to the son. Otherwise they shouldnt be in a position to rank maps.
2.0 is a good guideline to set, but if a map is easy enough and determined so by the QAT and BNs, there should be mo reason to restrict it.
Anyways, i feel this should be a guideline. It happens in osu!standard in the opposite way, where the lowest difficulty is under 2 stars, but is unsuitable for the lowest diff. BN, in a system that actually works, SHOULD be able to generally determine if a diff is too hard or easy for players in relation to the son. Otherwise they shouldnt be in a position to rank maps.
2.0 is a good guideline to set, but if a map is easy enough and determined so by the QAT and BNs, there should be mo reason to restrict it.
Mania's SR is heavily keycount-dependant. CTB is correct in terms of lower diffs though (Krah told me).
As the one who brought the topic (along with Raiden) about this, I think this starts to be a very huge problem. I've detailed why such things happen easily for easier difficulties, that makes them impossible to fit under the current criterion, especially if the song is fast, and has non-standard beats. Some songs are almost forced to have no diffs below 2.0 stars due to the way they're constructed, without ruining either the quality or the spread. I currently do not have a good rewording in mind, but it would be something along these lines:
Not the best proposal I have ever done, but I think you get the idea.
As the one who brought the topic (along with Raiden) about this, I think this starts to be a very huge problem. I've detailed why such things happen easily for easier difficulties, that makes them impossible to fit under the current criterion, especially if the song is fast, and has non-standard beats. Some songs are almost forced to have no diffs below 2.0 stars due to the way they're constructed, without ruining either the quality or the spread. I currently do not have a good rewording in mind, but it would be something along these lines:
The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars, with the exception of Taiko mode. The difficulty level of Taiko and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs discretion. In Taiko, the lowest difficulty may be above 2.0 stars if the spread is well-designed enough and is easy enough for a beginner.
Not the best proposal I have ever done, but I think you get the idea.
Mania with Star rating is broken, honestly.
If you can provide examples on how Mania's star rating is broken about easier difficulties, we might extend to other modes.
RIP [Shoshinsha] hahaha.
In terms of taiko, not any other game modes. SR is absolutely broken at low levels. 1/2 rhythm and 3/4 gaps are weighted too heavily and can take your map from a 1.50 too a 2.00 in 2 or 3 patterns.
2.00 can be a guideline, but if we want a definitive number, under 2.25 should be fine until taiko SR is fixed.
2.00 can be a guideline, but if we want a definitive number, under 2.25 should be fine until taiko SR is fixed.
I still don´t understand why the star rating calculation can´t be changed instead of the rules. Anyone care to elaborate on this please?
Topic Starter
@Xanandra: There are other projects like osu!next or the ranking system with higher priority. Hence, I purpose for the time being either a rule change or the change into a guideline for Taiko.
Since this concerns general Ranking Criteria, here's my little addition:_Gezo_ wrote:
Mania's SR is heavily keycount-dependant. CTB is correct in terms of lower diffs though (Krah told me).
As the one who brought the topic (along with Raiden) about this, I think this starts to be a very huge problem. I've detailed why such things happen easily for easier difficulties, that makes them impossible to fit under the current criterion, especially if the song is fast, and has non-standard beats. Some songs are almost forced to have no diffs below 2.0 stars due to the way they're constructed, without ruining either the quality or the spread. I currently do not have a good rewording in mind, but it would be something along these lines:The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars, with the exception of Taiko mode. The difficulty level of Taiko and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs discretion. In Taiko, the lowest difficulty may be above 2.0 stars if the spread is well-designed enough and is easy enough for a beginner.
Not the best proposal I have ever done, but I think you get the idea.
The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars, with the exception of Taiko and Catch the Beat modes The difficulty level of Taiko and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs discretion. In Taiko, the lowest difficulty may be above 2.0 stars if the spread is well-designed enough and is easy enough for a beginner.
Currently, the 2.0 stars minimum doesn't apply to CtB, so it should be stated as an exception too. It also adds more consistency to the rule regarding CtB spreads.
Mania with Star rating is broken, honestly.
↑yes
↑yes
Waiting for examples on why Mania star rating is broken, these are sayings devoid of proof. Taiko has been proven and CTB has already a RC regarding difficulty spread.
Topic Starter
_Gezo_ wrote:
Waiting for examples on why Mania star rating is broken, these are sayings devoid of proof. Taiko has been proven and CTB has already a RC regarding difficulty spread.
Not exactly_Gezo_ wrote:
CTB is correct in terms of lower diffs though (Krah told me).
CtB sr is correct for lower diffs when you have to compare them.
But the number itself is still broken and tend to be more than what it should be and it's why the 2stars isn't a rule for us.
I find this quite hilarious. You want an example on both ends of the spectrum?_Gezo_ wrote:
Waiting for examples on why Mania star rating is broken, these are sayings devoid of proof. Taiko has been proven and CTB has already a RC regarding difficulty spread.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/310593 = 7 star map, should be worth 1-2 stars
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/372569&m=3 i dare u to try and pass this 0 star song with ht+ez
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/153743 maybe something alittle bit easier?
bottom line, do your research before posting.
Are you kidding me? Mania is by far the most broken in terms of star rating. Let's compare some maps for a sec:_Gezo_ wrote:
Waiting for examples on why Mania star rating is broken, these are sayings devoid of proof. Taiko has been proven and CTB has already a RC regarding difficulty spread.
Speedcore 300: 5.79*
The Empress: 5.81*
Speedcore 300 is S rankable by decent mania players, and the only aspect of the song is how fast you can mash. The Empress is S rankable by only the best 4k players. In the time that it was qualified, very few players had S ranks, and there were even very few A ranks. Taking myself for an example, I can gt 98.5% on Speedcore 300, but only 87% on The Empress. Need more examples?
Everlasting Message: 5.35*, Baby Sweet Berry Love (3R2 Remix): 5.31*
Fiat Lux: 5.19*
Everlasting Message is a 7k map that can be S ranked by people who barely even play 7k. Baby Sweet Berry Love is also a very easy 7k map that again, non experienced 7k players can score high on. Both of these maps are very overrated because they have a large number of 4-5 note chords (everlasting Message) or very simple dense patterns (Baby Sweet Berry Love). Fiat Lux on the other hand, is tough to even get an A rank on. Only very skilled 7k players can S rank it. It is full of very difficult patterns at 200 bpm.
If this isn't convincing enough, I could list off a bunch more ranked maps. Oh, and should I bring up unranked maps?
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/530698&m=3
The 4k map of this set is 7.3*, but most of the song consists of spamming jumptrills (which btw inflate the star rating a LOT).
If you want me to bring up more examples, I will.
Also I can confirm that the 7* map that SquishyKorean brought up is insanely easy and realistically only 2* in diff. It is all 7 note chords, which inflate the sr. Mania sr is determined by density of notes, not difficulty of patterns.
Topic Starter
I got just the information that the mania ranking will be patched (no idea when). So there are no examples needed at all.
But for taiko I have been told to make a well working draft for the ranking change. So I lable this as taiko specific thing.
But for taiko I have been told to make a well working draft for the ranking change. So I lable this as taiko specific thing.
Just saying:Gekido- wrote:
Speedcore 300: 5.79*
The Empress: 5.81*
Everlasting Message: 5.35*
Baby Sweet Berry Love (3R2 Remix): 5.31*
Fiat Lux: 5.19*
Lowest diff must be below 2.0 starsHigher diffs are disregarded....
Anyway it has been switched to taiko only.
Guess why I had to remove the Easy diff from my End Time set._Gezo_ wrote:
Waiting for examples on why Mania star rating is broken, these are sayings devoid of proof. Taiko has been proven and CTB has already a RC regarding difficulty spread.
Yup, that's right, 1/1 rhythm is definitely not fitting those long piano parts at 180BPM. I had to remove so many notes to get it under 1,5* it was looking ridiculously and retardedly boring, even for a beginner diff. Using 1/2s for those streams ? Would have done the trick if the broken SR didn't skyrocket the thing to 2+ stars.
And yes the mania SR is undergoing changes (errr iirc Smooogi is on it) though we do not have an ETA yet. So far the new algorithm seems to be doing great, or a lot better than currently according to those involved.
err i'll stop derailing the thread ok
What I shall recommend is to make another thread about it? Starry told me it should stay 2.0 for now.
Back to the Taiko topic, 2.25 seems good as a limit. Anything above will require a difficulty shift.
Back to the Taiko topic, 2.25 seems good as a limit. Anything above will require a difficulty shift.
ayy..
when it comes with below 2.0 stars, i believe many osu!mania mappers is just too lazy to map Easy diff.. people are whining when they map Normal diffs above 2.0 stars, then when disqualification happens, they blame the RC, but they don't want to map Easy diff..
there's no prove that in mania, EASY diff exceed 2.0 stars.. so stop being lazy mappers & start making Easy diff.. simple as that..
for taiko itself, i support this..
side note : its bait
when it comes with below 2.0 stars, i believe many osu!mania mappers is just too lazy to map Easy diff.. people are whining when they map Normal diffs above 2.0 stars, then when disqualification happens, they blame the RC, but they don't want to map Easy diff..
there's no prove that in mania, EASY diff exceed 2.0 stars.. so stop being lazy mappers & start making Easy diff.. simple as that..
for taiko itself, i support this..
side note : its bait
In Kantan d d k k d is worth like 0.2 SR over d k d k d lololol.
And using any blue ticks in a low bpm futsuu gets you a hard icon with how much it spikes it. gg
And using any blue ticks in a low bpm futsuu gets you a hard icon with how much it spikes it. gg
random question : is it possible to fix taiko SR calculation? seeing so many people complaining about it? '-'
Topic Starter
Atm not under restruction and will take some time until it will be changed. That's why this purposal has been posted.
The question is now whether we go for a fixed value (e.g. 2.25) or let this decide upon BN/QAT.
The question is now whether we go for a fixed value (e.g. 2.25) or let this decide upon BN/QAT.
i thought the main problem was that a fixed value is too fixed for a broken system
so why are we discussing a slightly higher fixed value 'which might be ok for most cases'
so why are we discussing a slightly higher fixed value 'which might be ok for most cases'
Provisional solutionOkoratu wrote:
i thought the main problem was that a fixed value is too fixed for a broken system
so why are we discussing a slightly higher fixed value 'which might be ok for most cases'
until SR system gets fixed in Taiko at least I guess
Topic Starter
Yeah, that was my concern. While it can be subjective, in Taiko we normaly have clear borders when a Futsuu / Kantan becomes too hard. So I would entrust this rather to BN / QAT instead of some fixed value again.Okoratu wrote:
i thought the main problem was that a fixed value is too fixed for a broken system
so why are we discussing a slightly higher fixed value 'which might be ok for most cases'
Topic Starter
Alright, as there are several Taiko sets which suffer under this 2.0* rule, I give a suggestion how the rule can look in future. Just added the line "(Taiko excluded)":
so the evaluation of appropriate lower difficulties is upon (taiko capable-)BNs and QATs.
change toRanking Criteria wrote:
- The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars. The difficulty level of Taiko-specific and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs discretion. The difficulty spread is determined by the map's star rating. A map falls under a certain difficulty when having a specific star rating:
Below 1.5: Easy
Below 2.25: Normal
Below 3.75: Hard
Below 5.25: Insane
Above 5.25: Expert
- The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars (Taiko excluded). The difficulty level of Taiko-specific and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs discretion. The difficulty spread is determined by the map's star rating. A map falls under a certain difficulty when having a specific star rating:
Below 1.5: Easy
Below 2.25: Normal
Below 3.75: Hard
Below 5.25: Insane
Above 5.25: Expert
so the evaluation of appropriate lower difficulties is upon (taiko capable-)BNs and QATs.
I agree with this, hope to see this approved
i agree with this!
I have already commented this, but I guess it doesn't hurt to do so again.
Yes, I think letting the evaluation of lower difficulties to the competent nominators/QATs is the best solution we can take for now.
Yes, I think letting the evaluation of lower difficulties to the competent nominators/QATs is the best solution we can take for now.
This must be implimented. We do really need this, SR rarely means a thing
SR will fit this.. ww
I totally support this, star rating isn't really relevent on Taiko as you can easily overrate a diff by only adding 3/2
Definitely support this (Just hope SR for Taiko gets fixed soon, its been ages).
Wish to see this being changed like that, I agree.
Yes please
I knew I had a map, 3 minutes Futsuu
400 notes, 1 kiai was mostly 3/4 --> 3.11*
Muzu had 700+ notes, quite some doublets and triplets --> 3.13*
While I don't think the rule needs to be changed, SR needs to be changed
I knew I had a map, 3 minutes Futsuu
400 notes, 1 kiai was mostly 3/4 --> 3.11*
Muzu had 700+ notes, quite some doublets and triplets --> 3.13*
While I don't think the rule needs to be changed, SR needs to be changed
Since CtB doesn't seem to follow this SR rule, we may add this too. Wording doesn't have to change drastically since there's already one exception. My suggestion.
- The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars (Taiko and CtB modes excluded/ for osu! standard and osu!mania modes). The difficulty level of Taiko-specific and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In Taiko and CtB modes, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs/QAT discretion. The difficulty spread is determined by the map's star rating. A map falls under a certain difficulty when having a specific star rating:
Below 1.5: Easy
Below 2.25: Normal
Below 3.75: Hard
Below 5.25: Insane
Above 5.25: Expert
Topic Starter
- The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars, with the exception of Taiko and Catch the Beat modes. The difficulty level of Taiko and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In Taiko and CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs/QAT discretion. In Taiko, the lowest difficulty may be above 2.0 stars if the spread is well-designed enough and is easy enough for a beginner.
Below 1.5: Easy
Below 2.25: Normal
Below 3.75: Hard
Below 5.25: Insane
Above 5.25: Expert
I used what ZiRoX said before mixing it with yours, Dake. I will ask Deif to give comment about this and lable this topic as ctb+taiko again for now.
I agree including CtB in that rule. The Star Rating system is for those kind of difficulties utterly broken and we've been considering the lowest diff limit only upon discretion of the BN/QAT.
If you want to include CtB completely into this, the rule should say something like this:
Because of this sentence:
If you want to include CtB completely into this, the rule should say something like this:
- The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars, with the exception of Taiko and Catch the Beat modes. The difficulty level of Taiko and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In Taiko and Catch the Beat, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs/QAT discretion, meaning that the lowest difficulty may be above 2.0 stars if the spread is well-designed enough and is easy enough for a beginner.
Below 1.5: Easy
Below 2.25: Normal
Below 3.75: Hard
Below 5.25: Insane
Above 5.25: Expert
Because of this sentence:
The difficulty level of Taiko and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present.I'd rather wait for the conclusion of this thread t/292401 before finalising this one.
What about extending the request to all modes?
We all agree that, while star rating is getting more accurate, it will never be an ultimate medium to judge true difficulty of a map.
This 2.0-star-rule is literally the only thing in the Ranking Criteria that relies on star rating, and I don't see a reason for that.
My suggestion would be to remove this part of the rule and write a guideline to make sure the lowest diff is easy enough for a lowest diff (use / no use of specific gameplay elements etc) for all modes seperate. I would try wording it myself but I am at work so I don't really have the time ( :c ) and also I am pretty bad at wording so, yeah, please tell me what you think about this idea.
We all agree that, while star rating is getting more accurate, it will never be an ultimate medium to judge true difficulty of a map.
This 2.0-star-rule is literally the only thing in the Ranking Criteria that relies on star rating, and I don't see a reason for that.
My suggestion would be to remove this part of the rule and write a guideline to make sure the lowest diff is easy enough for a lowest diff (use / no use of specific gameplay elements etc) for all modes seperate. I would try wording it myself but I am at work so I don't really have the time ( :c ) and also I am pretty bad at wording so, yeah, please tell me what you think about this idea.
Topic Starter
If I remember right, this is, according to higher staff members (or even peppy), not a possible solution, as the SR for osu works mostly fine, while mania is under maintenace for this purpose already. And the rule purpose itself is only a temporary solution. Once the SR for ctb and Taiko works too, the rule will be probably changed back again.
It's really hard for me to believe there are Easy difficulties going above 2 stars in standard mode, lol. Almost everything above 2 (and even some stuff below this) is quite troublesome to newcomers, which is the purpose of this limit, to give a tentative limit, which works good for the mode. My opinion though.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/750261 That Easy for example would have worked nice as lowest diff. It is in fact much, much easier than most ranked Normal-lowest-diffs.DakeDekaane wrote:
It's really hard for me to believe there are Easy difficulties going above 2 stars in standard mode, lol. Almost everything above 2 (and even some stuff below this) is quite troublesome to newcomers, which is the purpose of this limit, to give a tentative limit, which works good for the mode. My opinion though.
Oh well.. I really hope there are not going to be more rules depending on star rating in the future.OnosakiHito wrote:
If I remember right, this is, according to higher staff members (or even peppy), not a possible solution, as the SR for osu works mostly fine, while mania is under maintenace for this purpose already. And the rule purpose itself is only a temporary solution. Once the SR for ctb and Taiko works too, the rule will be probably changed back again.
Topic Starter
Since the approval of t/292401 we can continue finalising this rule:
- The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars, with the exception of Taiko and Catch the Beat modes. The difficulty level of Taiko and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In Taiko and Catch the Beat, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs/QAT discretion, meaning that the lowest difficulty may be above 2.0 stars if the spread is well-designed enough and is easy enough for a beginner.
Below 1.5: Easy
Below 2.25: Normal
Below 3.75: Hard
Below 5.25: Insane
Above 5.25: Expert
With the change of how the Ranking Criteria Subforum works from now on, topics like these are obsolete.