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[Rule Change] Lowest diff must be below 2.0 stars(Taiko&ctb)

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Arzenvald
4,033 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
ayy..

when it comes with below 2.0 stars, i believe many osu!mania mappers is just too lazy to map Easy diff.. people are whining when they map Normal diffs above 2.0 stars, then when disqualification happens, they blame the RC, but they don't want to map Easy diff..
there's no prove that in mania, EASY diff exceed 2.0 stars.. so stop being lazy mappers & start making Easy diff.. simple as that..

for taiko itself, i support this..

side note : its bait
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock
In Kantan d d k k d is worth like 0.2 SR over d k d k d lololol.

And using any blue ticks in a low bpm futsuu gets you a hard icon with how much it spikes it. gg
Arzenvald
4,033 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
random question : is it possible to fix taiko SR calculation? seeing so many people complaining about it? '-'
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,814 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Atm not under restruction and will take some time until it will be changed. That's why this purposal has been posted.

The question is now whether we go for a fixed value (e.g. 2.25) or let this decide upon BN/QAT.
Okoratu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,917 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoratu
i thought the main problem was that a fixed value is too fixed for a broken system

so why are we discussing a slightly higher fixed value 'which might be ok for most cases'
Raiden
osu! Alumni
2,419 posts
Joined January 2013
Raiden

Okoratu wrote:

i thought the main problem was that a fixed value is too fixed for a broken system

so why are we discussing a slightly higher fixed value 'which might be ok for most cases'
Provisional solution

until SR system gets fixed in Taiko at least I guess
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,814 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito

Okoratu wrote:

i thought the main problem was that a fixed value is too fixed for a broken system

so why are we discussing a slightly higher fixed value 'which might be ok for most cases'
Yeah, that was my concern. While it can be subjective, in Taiko we normaly have clear borders when a Futsuu / Kantan becomes too hard. So I would entrust this rather to BN / QAT instead of some fixed value again.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,814 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Alright, as there are several Taiko sets which suffer under this 2.0* rule, I give a suggestion how the rule can look in future. Just added the line "(Taiko excluded)":

Ranking Criteria wrote:

  1. The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars. The difficulty level of Taiko-specific and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs discretion. The difficulty spread is determined by the map's star rating. A map falls under a certain difficulty when having a specific star rating:

    Below 1.5: Easy
    Below 2.25: Normal
    Below 3.75: Hard
    Below 5.25: Insane
    Above 5.25: Expert
change to

  1. The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars (Taiko excluded). The difficulty level of Taiko-specific and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs discretion. The difficulty spread is determined by the map's star rating. A map falls under a certain difficulty when having a specific star rating:

    Below 1.5: Easy
    Below 2.25: Normal
    Below 3.75: Hard
    Below 5.25: Insane
    Above 5.25: Expert

so the evaluation of appropriate lower difficulties is upon (taiko capable-)BNs and QATs.
Hanjamon
1,461 posts
Joined June 2012
Hanjamon
I agree with this, hope to see this approved
tasuke912
Former osu!taiko Champion: 2018
1,347 posts
Joined June 2013
tasuke912
i agree with this!
Raiden
osu! Alumni
2,419 posts
Joined January 2013
Raiden
I have already commented this, but I guess it doesn't hurt to do so again.

Yes, I think letting the evaluation of lower difficulties to the competent nominators/QATs is the best solution we can take for now.
Akiyama Mizuki
2,710 posts
Joined March 2009
Akiyama Mizuki
This must be implimented. We do really need this, SR rarely means a thing
Surono
7,195 posts
Joined November 2013
Surono
SR will fit this.. ww
Kurokotei
Featured Artist
1,648 posts
Joined June 2010
Kurokotei
I totally support this, star rating isn't really relevent on Taiko as you can easily overrate a diff by only adding 3/2
Grimbow
424 posts
Joined February 2012
Grimbow
I support the change!
karterfreak
osu! Alumni
724 posts
Joined August 2011
karterfreak
Definitely support this (Just hope SR for Taiko gets fixed soon, its been ages).
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,404 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Wish to see this being changed like that, I agree.
Bara-
11,961 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Yes please
I knew I had a map, 3 minutes Futsuu
400 notes, 1 kiai was mostly 3/4 --> 3.11*
Muzu had 700+ notes, quite some doublets and triplets --> 3.13*
While I don't think the rule needs to be changed, SR needs to be changed
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
Since CtB doesn't seem to follow this SR rule, we may add this too. Wording doesn't have to change drastically since there's already one exception. My suggestion.

  1. The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars (Taiko and CtB modes excluded/ for osu! standard and osu!mania modes). The difficulty level of Taiko-specific and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In Taiko and CtB modes, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs/QAT discretion. The difficulty spread is determined by the map's star rating. A map falls under a certain difficulty when having a specific star rating:

    Below 1.5: Easy
    Below 2.25: Normal
    Below 3.75: Hard
    Below 5.25: Insane
    Above 5.25: Expert
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,814 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
  1. The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars, with the exception of Taiko and Catch the Beat modes. The difficulty level of Taiko and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In Taiko and CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs/QAT discretion. In Taiko, the lowest difficulty may be above 2.0 stars if the spread is well-designed enough and is easy enough for a beginner.

    Below 1.5: Easy
    Below 2.25: Normal
    Below 3.75: Hard
    Below 5.25: Insane
    Above 5.25: Expert

I used what ZiRoX said before mixing it with yours, Dake. I will ask Deif to give comment about this and lable this topic as ctb+taiko again for now.
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif
I agree including CtB in that rule. The Star Rating system is for those kind of difficulties utterly broken and we've been considering the lowest diff limit only upon discretion of the BN/QAT.

If you want to include CtB completely into this, the rule should say something like this:

  1. The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars, with the exception of Taiko and Catch the Beat modes. The difficulty level of Taiko and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In Taiko and Catch the Beat, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs/QAT discretion, meaning that the lowest difficulty may be above 2.0 stars if the spread is well-designed enough and is easy enough for a beginner.

    Below 1.5: Easy
    Below 2.25: Normal
    Below 3.75: Hard
    Below 5.25: Insane
    Above 5.25: Expert

Because of this sentence:

The difficulty level of Taiko and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present.
I'd rather wait for the conclusion of this thread t/292401 before finalising this one.
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo
What about extending the request to all modes?
We all agree that, while star rating is getting more accurate, it will never be an ultimate medium to judge true difficulty of a map.
This 2.0-star-rule is literally the only thing in the Ranking Criteria that relies on star rating, and I don't see a reason for that.
My suggestion would be to remove this part of the rule and write a guideline to make sure the lowest diff is easy enough for a lowest diff (use / no use of specific gameplay elements etc) for all modes seperate. I would try wording it myself but I am at work so I don't really have the time ( :c ) and also I am pretty bad at wording so, yeah, please tell me what you think about this idea.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,814 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
If I remember right, this is, according to higher staff members (or even peppy), not a possible solution, as the SR for osu works mostly fine, while mania is under maintenace for this purpose already. And the rule purpose itself is only a temporary solution. Once the SR for ctb and Taiko works too, the rule will be probably changed back again.
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
It's really hard for me to believe there are Easy difficulties going above 2 stars in standard mode, lol. Almost everything above 2 (and even some stuff below this) is quite troublesome to newcomers, which is the purpose of this limit, to give a tentative limit, which works good for the mode. My opinion though.
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo

DakeDekaane wrote:

It's really hard for me to believe there are Easy difficulties going above 2 stars in standard mode, lol. Almost everything above 2 (and even some stuff below this) is quite troublesome to newcomers, which is the purpose of this limit, to give a tentative limit, which works good for the mode. My opinion though.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/750261 That Easy for example would have worked nice as lowest diff. It is in fact much, much easier than most ranked Normal-lowest-diffs.

OnosakiHito wrote:

If I remember right, this is, according to higher staff members (or even peppy), not a possible solution, as the SR for osu works mostly fine, while mania is under maintenace for this purpose already. And the rule purpose itself is only a temporary solution. Once the SR for ctb and Taiko works too, the rule will be probably changed back again.
Oh well.. I really hope there are not going to be more rules depending on star rating in the future.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,814 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Since the approval of t/292401 we can continue finalising this rule:

  1. The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars, with the exception of Taiko and Catch the Beat modes. The difficulty level of Taiko and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In Taiko and Catch the Beat, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs/QAT discretion, meaning that the lowest difficulty may be above 2.0 stars if the spread is well-designed enough and is easy enough for a beginner.

    Below 1.5: Easy
    Below 2.25: Normal
    Below 3.75: Hard
    Below 5.25: Insane
    Above 5.25: Expert
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo
With the change of how the Ranking Criteria Subforum works from now on, topics like these are obsolete.
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