240 + is what calls for more ar 10 tbh AR 9.7 fits best with the map and it also makes calmer part of the map not look awful with it. AR 10 goes a bit too fast

ar9.7 is fine, but ar10 feels better imo
but rip map

Tom94 wrote:

Lust wrote:

According to many, the AR is just too low for the patterns you implemented. AR9.7 or even AR10 would make the play a lot smoother and inevitably solve issues on some patterns that were awkward

I actually disagree. Personally I find the AR fits very well. In general it's a very subjective matter to talk about suitable ARs and I think should be left to the mapper as long as it's not too obviously out of order. Again, just my personal opinion. :p

I also disagree strongly. The AR is completely fine and raising it would make the map objectively worse to play and less challenging and fun.

It's not a mistake to use an AR that's not super high. It's a mistake to force everything to ar10 and 10.33 even though it plays fine at 9.5 and better players could do it at ar9 and take away the whole "reading" side of osu. 9.5 is completely fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSUBU6Bgxzc

come on, you already nerfed my favorite part^, it's no fun to learn to play 220bpm effectively instead of just relax playing if the whole fun parts of the map (jumps+spacing, reading) is neutered.

LexiaLovesU wrote:

AR 9.7 fits best with the map and it also makes calmer part of the map not look awful with it.

We know this is not mania so the AR being too high for the calmer part is a problem with no real solution.
Sure it might be true but what can you do? If you make it lower the hard parts will be too low AR..
I'd rather have the hard parts with correct AR than the calm parts with correct AR, if it means one part of the map being in uncomfortable to read regardless of the AR used. (and in this case I do not think AR10 would cause said problems at all)

Quite frankly i do not understand why this is'nt an easy simple decicion, taking into consideration there are no higher star rating maps ranked so i don't understand how anyone would question AR10 being too high.
Every top 500 player can play even higher AR than 10 and feel comfortable with it, so AR10 doesn't seem too extreme from in any aspect for this diff..

Sotajumala wrote:

LexiaLovesU wrote:

AR 9.7 fits best with the map and it also makes calmer part of the map not look awful with it.

We know this is not mania so the AR being too high for the calmer part is a problem with no real solution.
Sure it might be true but what can you do? If you make it lower the hard parts will be too low AR..
I'd rather have the hard parts with correct AR than the calm parts with correct AR, if it means one part of the map being in uncomfortable to read regardless of the AR used. (and in this case I do not think AR10 would cause said problems at all)

Quite frankly i do not understand why this is'nt an easy simple decicion, taking into consideration there are no higher star rating maps ranked so i don't understand how anyone would question AR10 being too high.
Every top 500 player can play even higher AR than 10 and feel comfortable with it, so AR10 doesn't seem too extreme from in any aspect for this diff..

It's not too extreme, but simply maxing out the AR as high as reasonable people can react for every single map removes a lot of depth from the map

It's not too extreme, but simply maxing out the AR as high as reasonable people can react for every single map removes a lot of depth from the map

Im not saying the AR should be as high as possible, I'm saying that I think AR10 is the best AR for this diff.

JappyBabes wrote:

Purple wrote:

The only reason I can find for this nonsense is that the QAT/BAT's are having some serious mental breakdowns concerning the number 7, like omg SEVEN STARS, WHAAAT THATS CRAZY, so they are all nervous and anxious about it for god knows what reason and have to compensate by making sure the map is even easier to read than it already is.

Good. That's how it should be when a map like this gets ranked. It's not your typical anime OP with AR9 arbitrarily assigned to it that will fly through qualified without a problem. Maps like these should be scrutinized. The AR change is only one of the suggestions Lust listed. To me, this is more about mapping patterns which don't work well with the AR. There are two scenarios, you change the AR to something slightly higher or you change some of the patterns to be more intuitive. http://puu.sh/giomH/ec2427d303.png The jumps at 820x, although they are technically the hardest part of the map, they still play fine because they fit the AR quite well (not to say it's mapped perfectly, I think it's entirely reasonable to criticize how it focuses on the right side of the screen even though it is not as big of a deal). The QATs are not overreacting, look at the members of QAT. None of them are top players so they do the logical thing. They ask the top players. "Hey, we need some opinions on this map going through qualified as none of us are able to play the highest difficulty, mind helping us out?", and guess what? We all had problems with it. That difficulty isn't for 99% of the people posting in this thread right now, your opinion is honestly not appreciated and is detrimental to ensuring this map is done right. The only posts here I see worth following up on are Tom and GN's. Simple as that. walloftext

I actually didn't realize you or jesus1412 constitute TOP PLAYERS that are known for doing AMAZING THINGS in this game like 7-8 stars maps such as this one. IMO, if the QATs need the input of someone else because a map is too hard for them (fair enough), they should seek people that are known to FC maps of similar difficulty, and in this case, that means rrtyui, hvick, DH, WWW, HDHR, thelewa, and a few others. If they can't find anyone who can FC this song and speak english, they have to do the translation work themselves, it's that simple.

What's interesting is that your post essentially confirms a new ranking rule that says that for a map to be ranked, it has to be easy enough for rrtyui (AKA best player) to FC it, which is just completely unnecessary TBH. There's nothing wrong with ranking a map that noone can FC at the moment, the game is for fun to be had, not for pathological perfectionism.

Sotajumala wrote:

It's not too extreme, but simply maxing out the AR as high as reasonable people can react for every single map removes a lot of depth from the map

Im not saying the AR should be as high as possible, I'm saying that I think AR10 is the best AR for this diff.

I think 9.3 is the best AR for second gonkanau but i can see why some would want to play it at 9 or approaching 10 (i'm just too bad to read it well at ar9)

Just to be clear, i agree that hard to read = bad. Hard to read as in readability issues - stuff stacked badly, very confusing patterns for no reason. However in this case, it's very simply put:

"There's too many circles on the screen at once for me to handle, make it easier" and i don't like that at all. The map plays fine and anybody, anybody at all who plays at a high level and has developed reading skills can go into it on their first play without a hitch.

-Aeryn- wrote:

I also disagree strongly. The AR is completely fine and raising it would make the map objectively worse to play and less challenging and fun.

Can you explain how it is objectively worse? Because you think so?
Less challenging? AR should not be used to challenge players; it should be used accordingly to the patterns and to guide players to clearly read what they are hitting.

Kheldragar wrote:

There's no such thing as fun in Osu.

Can we not digress?

Can you explain how it is objectively worse? Because you think so?
Less challenging? AR should not be used to challenge players; it should be used accordingly to the patterns and to guide players to clearly read what they are hitting.

Insactly, AR is chosen for the map, not the players.

Lust wrote:

1. According to many, the AR is just too low for the patterns you implemented. AR9.7 or even AR10 would make the play a lot smoother and inevitably solve issues on some patterns that were awkward
   This is based on personal opinion, I think it is good as it is and it is fun to play even though I can't pass it. And why increasing the AR just to make it easier to FC for a handful of people. Those who are able to FC this map I guess are in the top 200 and those players should be able to read lower AR without problems. And if not they gotta learn it. It doesn't justify the unrank in my opinion.
   
2. 02:14:220 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - After internal discussion and various testplays, we have come to the conclusion that this section has not been lowered in difficulty the way we were hoping. Lowering the spacing is still recommended. Also, we believe that the patterns can be made a lot more intuitive.
   Recommend? So it's optional and doesn't justify the unrank too. I know the section is hard, but it is fun. The map and the section is already very good (at least compared to other maps getting ranked nowadays) and doesn't really need to be "more intuitive" while risking it to be less fun or different at all.
   
3. 02:17:493 (1,2,3,4,1,2,1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - focuses too heavily on the right side of the screen. More movement around the playfield will allow for a more enjoyable pattern.
   Wow, too much circles at the right, I could almost start crying. Seriously... This is a slight drift to the right for a few seconds. That doesn't justify a unrank at all and it looks like you were desperately searching for small flaws to justify it. Is the map now unrankable because of that? That's how the map is, it's not less fun or less FCable because of that.
   
4. 01:56:220 (7,2) - This overlap (as mentioned by jesus1412 and pointed out in various testplays) has been known to cause readability issues. Please try to avoid this.
   Have seen way worse in recently ranked maps.

It's just sad, why don't you just rank the map and let people have fun with it. Some of the top FC it and those who can't need to try harder. It's that simple.
I haven't covered the additional points but the reasons for the unrank are either based on personal opinions or just marginal things. This is also caused by the pressure on the QAT because they don't have such a 7 star map with that kind of popularity everyday so they want to make sure to make it perfect. But this is ending in a mess while other maps which don't have that much attention get ranked with some flaws or unusual pattern. Ranking this map which is good in many people's opinion would have been the better choice. These are minor flaws or opinions and maps with worse get through the process of ranking. If this would have got through, nobody would have questioned your abilities as QAT. There wouldn't have been many people complaining about too low AR or the pattern being a bit at the right. You're creating the problems on your own.
I could go on even more but I'm tired and I need to go to sleep now. Good night.

Purple wrote:

I actually didn't realize you or jesus1412 constitute TOP PLAYERS that are known for doing AMAZING THINGS in this game like 7-8 stars maps such as this one. IMO, if the QATs need the input of someone else because a map is too hard for them (fair enough), they should seek people that are known to FC maps of similar difficulty, and in this case, that means rrtyui, hvick, DH, WWW, HDHR, thelewa, and a few others. If they can't find anyone who can FC this song and speak english, they have to do the translation work themselves, it's that simple.

What's interesting is that your post essentially confirms a new ranking rule that says that for a map to be ranked, it has to be easy enough for rrtyui (AKA best player) to FC it, which is just completely unnecessary TBH. There's nothing wrong with ranking a map that noone can FC at the moment, the game is for fun to be had, not for pathological perfectionism.

Jesse has FCd Mendes DT (6.92), Native Faith DT (7.32) and almost TearVid DT (6.94). And I have that shitty Airman score l0l. If your argument is that if you are not someone who does not have an FC on a 7* map you can not accurately perceive problems, not only do you invalidate every single one of your posts because you can't FC a 7* map, but you also admit you don't know how difficult this map actually is. This pales in comparison to something like Freedom Dive and Wahrheit DT even though the star ratings are incredibly similar. There's no need to get all upset because I said you can't play this properly and try and put Jesse and I down as people that don't know what we're talking about. Nowhere in my post did I imply anything about this map being impossible to FC, considering that rrt even FCd the previous version of this which was more difficult (although it had a lower star rating) I don't even know why you wrote that because it is already easy enough for him. Also, it's not about 'striving for pathological perfectionism' but moving away from the mentality that is being content with mediocrity.

Bit off topic but whatever, I don't understand how a mapper trying to get something ranked (ESPECIALLY a 7 star map) would be able to cry about 'oppressing creativity' and such. If you're trying to make the map official and the players the map is directed at find flaws with it, you take them heart and change it. You don't refuse them using bullshit explanations as to why your way of doing things is superior and they clearly have no idea what they're talking about. That's just stroking your own ego and if that's the mindset you have, keep your shit in the graveyard. Not that Awaken has done this yet but we'll see.

JappyBabes wrote:

You don't refuse them using bullshit explanations as to why your way of doing things is superior and they clearly have no idea what they're talking about. That's just stroking your own ego and if that's the mindset you have, keep your shit in the graveyard. Not that Awaken has done this yet but we'll see.

^this.

Purple wrote:

JappyBabes wrote:

Good. That's how it should be when a map like this gets ranked. It's not your typical anime OP with AR9 arbitrarily assigned to it that will fly through qualified without a problem. Maps like these should be scrutinized. The AR change is only one of the suggestions Lust listed. To me, this is more about mapping patterns which don't work well with the AR. There are two scenarios, you change the AR to something slightly higher or you change some of the patterns to be more intuitive. http://puu.sh/giomH/ec2427d303.png The jumps at 820x, although they are technically the hardest part of the map, they still play fine because they fit the AR quite well (not to say it's mapped perfectly, I think it's entirely reasonable to criticize how it focuses on the right side of the screen even though it is not as big of a deal). The QATs are not overreacting, look at the members of QAT. None of them are top players so they do the logical thing. They ask the top players. "Hey, we need some opinions on this map going through qualified as none of us are able to play the highest difficulty, mind helping us out?", and guess what? We all had problems with it. That difficulty isn't for 99% of the people posting in this thread right now, your opinion is honestly not appreciated and is detrimental to ensuring this map is done right. The only posts here I see worth following up on are Tom and GN's. Simple as that. walloftext

I actually didn't realize you or jesus1412 constitute TOP PLAYERS that are known for doing AMAZING THINGS in this game like 7-8 stars maps such as this one. IMO, if the QATs need the input of someone else because a map is too hard for them (fair enough), they should seek people that are known to FC maps of similar difficulty, and in this case, that means rrtyui, hvick, DH, WWW, HDHR, thelewa, and a few others. If they can't find anyone who can FC this song and speak english, they have to do the translation work themselves, it's that simple.

What's interesting is that your post essentially confirms a new ranking rule that says that for a map to be ranked, it has to be easy enough for rrtyui (AKA best player) to FC it, which is just completely unnecessary TBH. There's nothing wrong with ranking a map that noone can FC at the moment, the game is for fun to be had, not for pathological perfectionism.

I actually stated that I don't feel good enough to comment on most of the map but to say that someone who can almost FC airman isn't good enough to pass judgement on this? I agree we should "ask rrtyui or hvick" but they're not interested in discussing it so we're doing the best we can by asking other people.#67 Xytox, #6 isokasapupuja, #41 jappybabes, #28 alumetorz, #178 omgforz, #34 kearnen, how many more do you want?

ah, so less than 20 combo off an FC of airman completely invalidates his opinion

looking forward to seeing you fc 7star+ nomod maps in the near future :­)

Purple wrote:

rachel wrote:

are you actually legitimately flaming a top 50 player for not being considered a "top player" when you're barely in the bottom half of the top 10k yourself

dude almost has a fucking airman fc, is that not good enough for you?

It's not a FC, and he himself knows he's not a top player as I described (yet), if he chooses to feel offended, then really that's not my doing. I do admit I find it surprising to see someone play a map that is way harder to read than this 900+ times and see him complain about pattern readability here. I do want to know the list of people who played this map on behalf of the QAT because I can almost guarantee that the players I mentioned in my previous post wouldn't have had a problem with readability on this map.

Broccoly wrote:

Can you explain how it is objectively worse? Because you think so?
Less challenging? AR should not be used to challenge players; it should be used accordingly to the patterns and to guide players to clearly read what they are hitting.

Even if the AR setting's intent purpose was to accommodate players and improve map readability (I don't agree with that), it's still a matter of preference, some people like AR10 and others prefer lower, and in this one case OP might have chosen something that is not popular among the majority of players and I think the QAT should always respect that decision as long as it's not extreme, like AR8 or something.

if, according to you, someone who has been in the top50 consistently for the past 3 years or so is not good enough to determine if this map plays well or not (which is laughable at it's own). how can you even have the nerves to think that you do?

Broccoly wrote:

AR should not be used to challenge players; it should be used accordingly to the patterns and to guide players to clearly read what they are hitting.

Isn't that somewhat ironic? I, an 8k rank trash player, could almost pass the map on its current setting because it's so easy to read (I got past the solo part and choked in the end of the last chorus and failed ). On AR10 I don't stand a chance, because only someone really good can read AR10 well.

It's fine how it is. It'd probably be fine as low as AR9 too, but whatever it is now, 9.5 or whatever, is perfectly easy to read.

could almost pass the map

Think this explains broccolys point pretty well LMAO, besides i think even if you would have passed it would not have a been a gloriously awesome play.

Sotajumala wrote:

could almost pass the map

Think this explains broccolys point pretty well LMAO, besides i think even if you would have passed it would not have a been a gloriously awesome play.

My point is that most people who find the map playable would stand less of a chance on AR10. Changing it to AR10 just because a few people have conditioned themselves to only be able to play AR10 and nothing else is stupid.

"Changing it to AR10 just because a few people have conditioned themselves to only be able to play AR10 and nothing else is stupid."

Youre mistaking being able to play AR10 with playing this map rather on AR10 than a on a lower AR. They are not the same thing.

If anyone cares about my opinion I just want to say approach rate should be decided only by map creator without any objections, as he is the one who is making art and it is up to him how it is going to look like. Making it ranked of course needs approval, but as for me good timing and FCable set of notes is all that should be checked. Anything on top of it I consider limiting new horizons.

PS. I love old maps.

woof

also this map should be AR9

Broccoly wrote:

Can you explain how it is objectively worse? Because you think so?
Less challenging? AR should not be used to challenge players; it should be used accordingly to the patterns and to guide players to clearly read what they are hitting.

In that case, AR should be a lot higher on a lot of ranked maps and a lot lower on a lot of other ranked maps. A lot of the basis of HR mod, even, is challenging people to read a very low object density (150-170bpm ar10 anyone?)

I doubt there's a "fitting" approach rate for this. It seems like this is being dictated more by the userbase's comfort than any other standard.

In that case, AR should be a lot higher on a lot of ranked maps and a lot lower on a lot of other ranked maps. A lot of the basis of HR mod, even, is challenging people to read a very low object density (150-170bpm ar10 anyone?)

I don't think anyone should conclude the fact the hr exist in thinking what AR they should use..

keep calm and let the mapper answer okey?

ar10 pls

Thank you guys for giving your opinion on this map.

I would be glad to see good posts which help the mapper, sadly this isn't the case anymore.
I lock this topic for now, we'll reopen it when the mapper will contact me or any QAT/GMT

wee~

Since when was "shitposting" a term in the osu! community?

Surely this isn't so bad we have to lock the thread.

If you guys are complaining about maps getting disqualified, stop playing the qualified maps. They have their own category for a reason.

I agee that higher AR will feel better, but AR10 will be awkward since there are also relatively slower parts.

I have restored some posts that could be useful for references in the future.
Let the discussion go on

(I agree with most of top players agree on as a #97)

unranked again??? why ㅜ_ㅜ

dornrjqnrdl wrote:

unranked again??? why ㅜ_ㅜ

If you've not read this yet. p/3927160

Even though this isn't helpful to the mapper.

There is a trend with Awaken "super insane diffs" where they get qualified, disqualified over and over until BN had enough and are "satisfied" at the same time the star difficulty.
I MEAN COME ON, The same thing happened to Hanairo Biyori (From 6.11 to 6.48)

Maybe be more careful with qualifying maps? Disqualifying a map that was "hype" qualified just pisses off the community (Oh, just don't play qualified maps) but that isn't a good solution. (Well... the disqualification wasn't because of the that one diff) but it still is affected because new people still mod the diff.
Can we just not repeat this again?

Garpo wrote:

Even though this isn't helpful to the mapper.

There is a trend with Awaken "super insane diffs" where they get qualified, disqualified over and over until BN had enough and are "satisfied" at the same time the star difficulty.
I MEAN COME ON, The same thing happened to Hanairo Biyori (From 6.11 to 6.48)

Maybe be more careful with qualifying maps? Disqualifying a map that was "hype" qualified just pisses off the community (Oh, just don't play qualified maps) but that isn't a good solution. (Well... the disqualification wasn't because of the that one diff) but it still is affected because new people still mod the diff.
Can we just not repeat this again?

I partially agree, and also somewhat disagree with your sentiments.

The way I see it, people have no right to be upset about scores being wiped, as this is standard protocol for maps being unqualified, and even unranked before qualified category existed. But, I think they have every right to be upset with the people who rushed it back into qualified. This whole situation could have been avoided in both cases by taking time and gathering opinions from people who are actually competent at this game, thus avoiding multiple unranks. It matters for maps like this especially, because high-end maps are made for high-end players.

Something which is also really bothersome is staff censoring complaints under the guise that they're cluttering up the thread and "shitposting". Nothing pisses people off more than pages going missing into AW when they are simply voicing opinions on the matter at hand.

od9 at least pls

posts get back,cool

Good luck on re-rank! I love your Another Difficulty and can't wait to play it once it gets ranked again! ^ u ^
Best of luck to you!

now the jumps leading up to the "hardest jumps of the map" are harder :c

Kinda sad that theres so much drama around the qualified thing.
Maybe it would be better to not give out PP for qualified maps while still taking record of score (?)

Anyways i really like the map and hope that you can rank it someday all the way.
But its expected to take multiple tries with a high-difficulty map in the mapset as many people will be aware of it, many people will search for mistakes in the mapset.