Lower key maps should be worth a lot less now. Also there was a bug with holds that made them considered pretty much not at all. This has been fixed, too.Zealtron wrote:
Some quick feedback on things I'm seeing right off the bat. I'm seeing a lot more lower key maps being put at a higher difficulty than higher key maps, even though they're quite a bit easier.
ex. Akasha's 8k FEVER is lower than Little Star 4k INF.
unfinished's 4k Accel is 8 higher than its 7k Burst.
Another issue is how you're handling the difficulty for long notes (or maybe HP Drain/OD). Wintersun 7k Winter is definitely a lot lower than it should be.
forum
Performance Points feedback and suggestions (osu!mania)
posted
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635
Topic Starter
Re-linking Tom's link since this is the first post in the page: http://tinyurl.com/q3osedx
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For science, please add these autoconverts to the sample pool for the algorithm:
[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/125702 SHK - Identity Part 4 [Insane]]
[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/148009 Cuvelia - Tenkuu no Yoake [Another]]
[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152480 Memme - Extreme Fantasy [ExtrA]]
[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152561 44teru-k - Yami ~ Shoujo no Yume , Kyomu no Sekai ~ [Extra]]
[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/125102 D.J.Amuro - F [Another]]
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Map-specific feedback/pointers from initial checkthrough:
polygon [SHD] - Underrated. Jacks inside chords/LN patterns.
Gigantic O.T.N [Entozer's Another] - Underrated. dunno why.
Gigantic O.T.N [L i a's Mania] - Overrated. citation needed. I know this map is much harder to play well than it is to play mediocrely.
G59 [Level 36] - Underrated. citation needed.
Nou Shou Sakuretsu Girl [Hard] - Underrated. that ending...
Zoetrope (TV Size) [RC's 8K SC] - Not sure if underrated or I just suck at 8K
Hesitation Snow (Short Ver.) [8K Another] - definitely underrated but I also suck at 8K
Wintersun (Bobby D'Ambrosio Mix) [7K Winter] - underrated...? citation needed. density+LNstreams
Insane Techniques [5K Black Another] - underrated, has hard jacks in the end
Maware! Setsugekka (TV Size) [PROGUY's 6K MX] - underrated.
Crack traxxxx [4K EXH] - overrated
VALLIS-NERIA [LeiN-'s EXH] - overrated
Akasha [8K Hard] - underrated. even with me not being all that good in 7K+1 this map deserves way more than it gets.
Senretsu no ryu [Hard] - overrated
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Overall after the hotfix this algorithm is already starting to look real nice. Jacks needs to be handled better, other than this there's some unclear factors that would need tuning.
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For science, please add these autoconverts to the sample pool for the algorithm:
[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/125702 SHK - Identity Part 4 [Insane]]
[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/148009 Cuvelia - Tenkuu no Yoake [Another]]
[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152480 Memme - Extreme Fantasy [ExtrA]]
[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152561 44teru-k - Yami ~ Shoujo no Yume , Kyomu no Sekai ~ [Extra]]
[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/125102 D.J.Amuro - F [Another]]
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Map-specific feedback/pointers from initial checkthrough:
polygon [SHD] - Underrated. Jacks inside chords/LN patterns.
Gigantic O.T.N [Entozer's Another] - Underrated. dunno why.
Gigantic O.T.N [L i a's Mania] - Overrated. citation needed. I know this map is much harder to play well than it is to play mediocrely.
G59 [Level 36] - Underrated. citation needed.
Nou Shou Sakuretsu Girl [Hard] - Underrated. that ending...
Zoetrope (TV Size) [RC's 8K SC] - Not sure if underrated or I just suck at 8K
Hesitation Snow (Short Ver.) [8K Another] - definitely underrated but I also suck at 8K
Wintersun (Bobby D'Ambrosio Mix) [7K Winter] - underrated...? citation needed. density+LNstreams
Insane Techniques [5K Black Another] - underrated, has hard jacks in the end
Maware! Setsugekka (TV Size) [PROGUY's 6K MX] - underrated.
Crack traxxxx [4K EXH] - overrated
VALLIS-NERIA [LeiN-'s EXH] - overrated
Akasha [8K Hard] - underrated. even with me not being all that good in 7K+1 this map deserves way more than it gets.
Senretsu no ryu [Hard] - overrated
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Overall after the hotfix this algorithm is already starting to look real nice. Jacks needs to be handled better, other than this there's some unclear factors that would need tuning.
I looked at the document and it looked pretty accurate overall (I can't tell for harder maps), but I found something which I find weird.
For the song Igorrr - Unpleasant Sonata, the Insane converted map is considered the same level as [Shi-Ra]'s Hell [SC] mania chart. I played the Insane chart in case it was really as hard as the mania chart and it was very easy to pass compared to Shi-Ra's one, which contains a couple of hard LN parts (maybe not that hard but at least ten times as hard as those in the converted map) and has a very fast ending wich can be failed if you get out of sync too much.
I'm not an expert for judging maps but I'm convinced that if converted maps are worth less than real mania charts, the Insane converted map should not be considered the same level as the hardest mania difficulty.
I did not search for other examples and I have no idea what might cause this unless chords are worth many points, because there are much more (but not many) chords in the converted map than in the mania chart.
Apart from that, I'm very pleased to see some good progress and I can't wait for a new pp system to be implemented
For the song Igorrr - Unpleasant Sonata, the Insane converted map is considered the same level as [Shi-Ra]'s Hell [SC] mania chart. I played the Insane chart in case it was really as hard as the mania chart and it was very easy to pass compared to Shi-Ra's one, which contains a couple of hard LN parts (maybe not that hard but at least ten times as hard as those in the converted map) and has a very fast ending wich can be failed if you get out of sync too much.
I'm not an expert for judging maps but I'm convinced that if converted maps are worth less than real mania charts, the Insane converted map should not be considered the same level as the hardest mania difficulty.
I did not search for other examples and I have no idea what might cause this unless chords are worth many points, because there are much more (but not many) chords in the converted map than in the mania chart.
Apart from that, I'm very pleased to see some good progress and I can't wait for a new pp system to be implemented
Passing autoconverts is always easier than passing mania charts due to the nature of drain setting difference between the two modes and the way it transitions on the autoconvert. You should compare how hard are those maps to play correctly and not to spam through and pass (ask yourself how hard would it be for you to S it).
- croix (roxas mx) underrated, it starts getting quite fast near the end which makes it slightly harder and makes me lose a bunch of acc.
- crack traxxxx 7k inf overrated, everything on this map is just on a different level than the ones you put around this level.
- game brain (lunatic) underrated, everything on this map is just on a different level than the ones you put around this level.
- wintersun (bobby dambrosio) strongly underrated, long notes are really punishing + slowjam makes it slightly harder.
- piano concerto no.1 (lvl 31) overrated, everything on this map is just on a different level than the ones you put around this level.
- G59 (lvl 36) underrated, everything on this map is just on a different level than the ones you put around this level.
- Gigantic O.T.N (Lia's Mania) overrated, It has same density than the diff by entozer, but this map uses more chords and minibreaks which make it require less speed, stamina and acc. On top of that, there's a lot of symmetrical patterns which make it slightly easier as well.
- chain destruction (siilento remix) overrated, I lose a bunch of acc on the end, but it's not enough to be that highly diff judged.
- smoooooch 7K SC overrated, only reason it's hard is because of the SVs which are memorizable. Should be ignored.
- rhythmical planet (collab) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
- imperishable night 2006 (7k insane) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
can't judge any of the higher diffs. can't judge any of the lower diffs. Also can't judge half the maps since I didn't play them yet. (I mostly play BMS/o2jam convs)
What I can tell is that the system seems to be non-linear.
I mean maps around 20-30 seem to be far more spread out in skill level than 40-50.
It also seems to be inconsistent, it doesn't follow a smooth exponential curve since some lower levels seem to be closer together again.
This might be irrelevant, and it might not be, you'll know that better than me. I'm just saying.
It's quite a bit rough around the edges but it doesn't seem too bad for a first try though. Good job so far ^^
On a side note: you could use aqo's 'osu!mania maps sorted by difficulity' thread as well. I don't know about the lower diffs, but the lvl 7-11 maps are sorted pretty well, I'd say it has about a 1 level error margin. do note that there is a huge gap between 11 and 12 though.
- Levels are different too much.
- 153 is easier than 151,152 too much,shouldn't put here.
- 167 is harder than 166 too much.
Just a quick glance >,<
Clearly there is huge issue about low key amount diff earning a relative high difficulty. One thing I want to point out is that you cannot simply put them all under one single rating system although we have to do that in the future anyway. So now in the early stage of ppv2 I suggest make unique list for every key amount or at least don't put something completely different(for instant 8k and 4k) together. The comparison among different key amount are totally none sense for now.
A couple of opinions:
In difficulty 6, take a look at 7k charts.
Unfinished 7k Hard and Eden HD. Those two clearly don't belong the group of difficulty 6.
Eden HD -> although there is no really outstanding difficult part in this chart, parts contain continuously 1/4 in a relatively high BPM and many 4key-press at the same time make this chart extremely hard compare to other maps in the same level.
Unfinished 7k Hard -> 146BPM with some 1/4 and easy 1/2... seems not harder than other maps in this level. Actually not. Pattern make this chart a little bit hard to read and press for players in that level such as 00:20:065 - and 00:25:099 - , and for those who can not master higher level it is extremely hard to earn FC and high acc(OD8 btw).
So what's important? Sharing a similar average density, songs contain remarkable hard part (like burst or strange pattern) are usually deserved a higher difficulty. Everything unique may makes a chart harder than usual.
Same thing also happened in 4k. Eg: Wu Xuan Lan 4k Hard and Insane Techniques 4k Hyper
Speed change and large amounts of LNs makes difficulty rise. We're so Happy obviously easier than other two charts due to this reason.
LNs patterns and speed change should also be considered.
Good Job!
Clearly there is huge issue about low key amount diff earning a relative high difficulty. One thing I want to point out is that you cannot simply put them all under one single rating system although we have to do that in the future anyway. So now in the early stage of ppv2 I suggest make unique list for every key amount or at least don't put something completely different(for instant 8k and 4k) together. The comparison among different key amount are totally none sense for now.
A couple of opinions:
In difficulty 6, take a look at 7k charts.
Unfinished 7k Hard and Eden HD. Those two clearly don't belong the group of difficulty 6.
Eden HD -> although there is no really outstanding difficult part in this chart, parts contain continuously 1/4 in a relatively high BPM and many 4key-press at the same time make this chart extremely hard compare to other maps in the same level.
Unfinished 7k Hard -> 146BPM with some 1/4 and easy 1/2... seems not harder than other maps in this level. Actually not. Pattern make this chart a little bit hard to read and press for players in that level such as 00:20:065 - and 00:25:099 - , and for those who can not master higher level it is extremely hard to earn FC and high acc(OD8 btw).
So what's important? Sharing a similar average density, songs contain remarkable hard part (like burst or strange pattern) are usually deserved a higher difficulty. Everything unique may makes a chart harder than usual.
That is a problem. hard charts with lower average difficulties usually result in good score and OK acc, but actually to master them you need to enter a much higher level in order to manage those extreme hard part. This cause many underrated cases in the list and we need to pay more attention on the maximum difficulty of a chart to judge its rate.Xcrypt wrote:
I judge underrated/overrated based on how hard it is to get a good score, not on a clear basis.
- rhythmical planet (collab) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
- imperishable night 2006 (7k insane) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
Same thing also happened in 4k. Eg: Wu Xuan Lan 4k Hard and Insane Techniques 4k Hyper
Speed change and large amounts of LNs makes difficulty rise. We're so Happy obviously easier than other two charts due to this reason.
LNs patterns and speed change should also be considered.
Good Job!
Just out of curiosity, why does the system count the easier map as my highest PP yielding map?
From my userpage, it says the 4K map is my one of my highest maps when in fact, I did a lot better in a higher difficulty.
Is there a reason for this? Am I mistaken for saying that each beatmap only accounts for the score with the highest difficulty? (Well even if thats the case, shouldn't the 7k map be ranked as a higher PP map for me?
EDIT: Does this mean that ranked accuracy also takes into account converted beatmaps and beatmaps of lower difficulties?
From my userpage, it says the 4K map is my one of my highest maps when in fact, I did a lot better in a higher difficulty.
Is there a reason for this? Am I mistaken for saying that each beatmap only accounts for the score with the highest difficulty? (Well even if thats the case, shouldn't the 7k map be ranked as a higher PP map for me?
EDIT: Does this mean that ranked accuracy also takes into account converted beatmaps and beatmaps of lower difficulties?
Topic Starter
The current pp system is not functional. Please read the opening post next time.Andrew Chow wrote:
Is there a reason for this? Am I mistaken for saying that each beatmap only accounts for the score with the highest difficulty? (Well even if thats the case, shouldn't the 7k map be ranked as a higher PP map for me?
EDIT: Does this mean that ranked accuracy also takes into account converted beatmaps and beatmaps of lower difficulties?
I've been to this page at least 30 times and I've read the opening post quite a few times.Tom94 wrote:
The current pp system is not functional. Please read the opening post next time.Andrew Chow wrote:
Is there a reason for this? Am I mistaken for saying that each beatmap only accounts for the score with the highest difficulty? (Well even if thats the case, shouldn't the 7k map be ranked as a higher PP map for me?
EDIT: Does this mean that ranked accuracy also takes into account converted beatmaps and beatmaps of lower difficulties?
When you said the pp system was not functional I thought you meant that the PP calculations were not altered yet, not that the percentage accuracy was not functional. My bad anyways.
First of all, wow this list is looking pretty nice. Goob job Tom!
Here are a couple of inconsistencies I found
41 - Passionate 7k SHD - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/312638
Underrated, the layered long notes and the sv change is much harder for this level
36 - Freedom Dive 7k SHD - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/208353
Underrated, this is very very hard overall.
44 - Shining collection, Erox's Shining time - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/296010
Slightly overrated imo, not many layered long notes or any of the crazier patterns.
25 - Ascension to Heaven (LV. 44) - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/279472
Quite overrated, this has raining notes but no layered long notes, is much easier than long note overlap heavy songs
123 - Days of Dash Shi-Ra x Rumi SHD - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/326507
To me, very underrated. Long notes are hard.
These are a few that aren't listed by the others that I believe that are slightly off. Thanks for the read!
Here are a couple of inconsistencies I found
41 - Passionate 7k SHD - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/312638
Underrated, the layered long notes and the sv change is much harder for this level
36 - Freedom Dive 7k SHD - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/208353
Underrated, this is very very hard overall.
44 - Shining collection, Erox's Shining time - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/296010
Slightly overrated imo, not many layered long notes or any of the crazier patterns.
25 - Ascension to Heaven (LV. 44) - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/279472
Quite overrated, this has raining notes but no layered long notes, is much easier than long note overlap heavy songs
123 - Days of Dash Shi-Ra x Rumi SHD - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/326507
To me, very underrated. Long notes are hard.
These are a few that aren't listed by the others that I believe that are slightly off. Thanks for the read!
What you said about Ascension to Heaven and Days of Dash is pretty subjective, I know a few people having a harder time with density maps than with LNs heavy maps.
Tom94 wrote:
Hello everyone,
note that currently the osu!mania ranking is not functional. If you have any suggestions on how the future system should work, then leave it in this thread, please.
I'd like to mention a few things regarding how I plan on tackling this.
The general direction:
- First of all, everyone can decide on his/her own which maps he deems good or bad, or which ones he/she prefers playing. We shouldn't be forcing certain maps on people by making them worth more for no sensible reason.
- I'll try to make an algorithm that's fair for both auto-converts and mode-specific maps. We will all see how it turns out, and if it's alright, then I see no reason to reduce the value of auto-converts. As mentioned above you are still free to play the maps you prefer playing. I can however understand where the auto-convert argument is coming from, and it'll definitely be addressed if there won't be a good solution that weights all maps the same.
- Default X-key modes exist for each specific beatmap for a reason. My initial plan is to give slightly more points to the default X-key mode of a particular beatmap than any custom one. This is not set in stone yet and most likely will change in one way or another while testing.
- Unfortunately X-key specific ranking is not going to happen. That'd be for one part a way too huge amount of things to manage and for the other would clutter up everything.
Beatmap difficulty:
As for Taiko and CtB I also got an initial difficulty list for osu!mania ready. This is the gamemode I am the least sure about my results and so far only the base algorithm is done with no variations. However, you can already see how low converts are weighted simply because they are so easy, I've included a few of the harder ones:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... _web#gid=0
Get the feedback going.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/254644
unfinished lv 69 - underrated. longnotes in lastphase are really insane.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/370840
native faith 1K master? - why 1K
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/338759
koi yomi zakura - overrated.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/198272
god knows insane + - overrated.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/329213
sister's noise lvl 42 - underrated. this should placed in 75 ~ 77
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/219360
utakata, ai no mahoroba - this is super - overrated. it's very easy to fc as ChaiN De/structioN (siilento's solid remix) another
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/370953
native faith 8K Lunatic - this is super - underrated. why this et chart is placed on #107?
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/370882
hesitation snow 8K Another - super underrated. this is harder than Imperishable Night 2006 7K insane diff...
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/257529
smooooch 7K SC - super overrated. this is map is very easy... why this is placed on #88...
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/298849
future gazer 7K SC - underrated... I think this map should be placed on around #117
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/326507
DAYS of DASH shira x rumi SHD - underrated. this is harder than gigantic o.t.n entozer's mania.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/278050
Aoi Eir - INNOCENCE (TV Size) lvl 26 - overrated.
unfinished lv 69 - underrated. longnotes in lastphase are really insane.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/370840
native faith 1K master? - why 1K
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/338759
koi yomi zakura - overrated.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/198272
god knows insane + - overrated.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/329213
sister's noise lvl 42 - underrated. this should placed in 75 ~ 77
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/219360
utakata, ai no mahoroba - this is super - overrated. it's very easy to fc as ChaiN De/structioN (siilento's solid remix) another
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/370953
native faith 8K Lunatic - this is super - underrated. why this et chart is placed on #107?
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/370882
hesitation snow 8K Another - super underrated. this is harder than Imperishable Night 2006 7K insane diff...
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/257529
smooooch 7K SC - super overrated. this is map is very easy... why this is placed on #88...
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/298849
future gazer 7K SC - underrated... I think this map should be placed on around #117
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/326507
DAYS of DASH shira x rumi SHD - underrated. this is harder than gigantic o.t.n entozer's mania.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/278050
Aoi Eir - INNOCENCE (TV Size) lvl 26 - overrated.
Finally !
Wishing the best for that new system xD
Wishing the best for that new system xD
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/231825?m=3 porno map top performance
[Normal] autoconverts beating 90% on mania specific highdiffs of charts
something somewhere went horribly wrong. please fix.
[Normal] autoconverts beating 90% on mania specific highdiffs of charts
something somewhere went horribly wrong. please fix.
Topic Starter
Fixed already. Further algorithm changes regarding score scaling incoming soon.Aqo wrote:
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/231825?m=3 porno map top performance
[Normal] autoconverts beating 90% on mania specific highdiffs of charts
something somewhere went horribly wrong. please fix.
Since the update I am horribly lagging. Its really unplayable
Am I the only one?
Am I the only one?
no..
me too
me too
I have the same issue, and I know others who have too. Some of the harder maps became unplayable because of the choppiness.
Oh and good job Tom
Oh and good job Tom
Topic Starter
The lags have nothing to do with pp updates. And thanks. ^^Xcrypt wrote:
I have the same issue, and I know others who have too. Some of the harder maps became unplayable because of the choppiness.
Oh and good job Tom
BSHFT BADT GMBH
Is it normal that weird auto-converted maps on the highest difficulty can beat any mania map by a ton?
Songs like:
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152561?m=3
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/198428?m=3
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152480?m=3
Everyone can recieve tremendous amounts of PP just by ranking them moderatly with any mod and I bet there are way more.
Songs like:
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152561?m=3
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/198428?m=3
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152480?m=3
Everyone can recieve tremendous amounts of PP just by ranking them moderatly with any mod and I bet there are way more.
I forgot to leave feedback:
I think its really unstable right now,because strange/easy converted maps gives you more pp then the mania-diffs
For example the Top Ranks from a friend of mine;His best maps are converted 7k maps he played several months ago with the mod 4k
I suggest the ranking from before(This from for example yesterday
) IF you dont get with Half-time nearly the same amount of pp then without Half-Time.
The only problem I meen was that the amount of pp you may get depends on the accuracy (Excuse me, if this is not true but it makes the apparent)
But I am still confused cause of the laggs D:
I think its really unstable right now,because strange/easy converted maps gives you more pp then the mania-diffs
For example the Top Ranks from a friend of mine;His best maps are converted 7k maps he played several months ago with the mod 4k
I suggest the ranking from before(This from for example yesterday
) IF you dont get with Half-time nearly the same amount of pp then without Half-Time.The only problem I meen was that the amount of pp you may get depends on the accuracy (Excuse me, if this is not true but it makes the apparent)
But I am still confused cause of the laggs D:
Agreed. I was wondering how two of those ended up in my BP. Somehow, Extreme Fantasy 4K 99% is worth more than my Imperishable Night A rank tooSM_Bluefusion wrote:
Is it normal that weird auto-converted maps on the highest difficulty can beat any mania map by a ton?
Songs like:
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152561?m=3
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/198428?m=3
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152480?m=3
Everyone can recieve tremendous amounts of PP just by ranking them moderatly with any mod and I bet there are way more.
I agree with this, that's reasonable opinion.richardfeder wrote:
Just a quick glance >,<
Clearly there is huge issue about low key amount diff earning a relative high difficulty. One thing I want to point out is that you cannot simply put them all under one single rating system although we have to do that in the future anyway. So now in the early stage of ppv2 I suggest make unique list for every key amount or at least don't put something completely different(for instant 8k and 4k) together. The comparison among different key amount are totally none sense for now.
A couple of opinions:
In difficulty 6, take a look at 7k charts.
Unfinished 7k Hard and Eden HD. Those two clearly don't belong the group of difficulty 6.
Eden HD -> although there is no really outstanding difficult part in this chart, parts contain continuously 1/4 in a relatively high BPM and many 4key-press at the same time make this chart extremely hard compare to other maps in the same level.
Unfinished 7k Hard -> 146BPM with some 1/4 and easy 1/2... seems not harder than other maps in this level. Actually not. Pattern make this chart a little bit hard to read and press for players in that level such as 00:20:065 - and 00:25:099 - , and for those who can not master higher level it is extremely hard to earn FC and high acc(OD8 btw).
So what's important? Sharing a similar average density, songs contain remarkable hard part (like burst or strange pattern) are usually deserved a higher difficulty. Everything unique may makes a chart harder than usual.That is a problem. hard charts with lower average difficulties usually result in good score and OK acc, but actually to master them you need to enter a much higher level in order to manage those extreme hard part. This cause many underrated cases in the list and we need to pay more attention on the maximum difficulty of a chart to judge its rate.Xcrypt wrote:
I judge underrated/overrated based on how hard it is to get a good score, not on a clear basis.
- rhythmical planet (collab) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
- imperishable night 2006 (7k insane) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
Same thing also happened in 4k. Eg: Wu Xuan Lan 4k Hard and Insane Techniques 4k Hyper
Speed change and large amounts of LNs makes difficulty rise. We're so Happy obviously easier than other two charts due to this reason.
LNs patterns and speed change should also be considered.
Good Job!
To combine each key, and then be reflected in overall pp system would make unfair rankings again.
Some people who should be praised truely in low-key mania will lose an opportunity.
Nice thread, Thank you.
Some harsh words, but after I checked the difficulty list, I'm not totally sure about the credibility of the list - It's even misleading in a few cases, especially in the top part, with overrate and underrate which even conflict with experience people stacked in the BMS/O2 community for years.
Some examples include Messier 333 vs Imperishable Night 2006 vs STAR OF AND... , Gigantic O.T.N vs Polygon vs Big Money vs Rhythmical Planet vs Akasha(ignore's ver) and more.
Though osu!mania is osu!mania and it's not necessary that we follow them at all (they have errors too), but they do provide good reference. (Edit: And this is also player feedback because they testplay-ed them for years.)
Since this list is not finalized, I suggest my original point - Let's make the diff calculation FUN and EASY TO USE.
I believe just like what you have done in TP, there are always weighted beatmaps, that most people think that's "overrated" or "underrated".
However, does that mean , when 20 players go here to say that a map is underrated, the map is truly underrated?
In many case, some parameters are just compromise of people who have discussed stuff here. Too many players, whether high ranked or not, are not possible, or don't want to discuss here (You know this is an English-only talk, and I know too many Chinese who can't participate in because they can't write in English well).
So what I suggest is: We should not focus on criticizing that "Oh a map is underratedI lose PP", but respect the fact that some maps are overrated, that they provide important fact that it's the superpower we should decided to promote (e.g. super quick jackhammer, nearly impossible sliders/ SV changes, etc) . To find these "weighted" maps is fun, isn't it? It's a pretty good idea to help with Tom to find that "What superpower has not been picked out"!
When I talked about "easy to use", I'm curious about the speed of the algorithm. Is it quick enough that it uses only a few seconds to calculate 30k maps? (I think dev had give up that once in the past when they want to improve SD)
Edit: some text arrangement.
Some examples include Messier 333 vs Imperishable Night 2006 vs STAR OF AND... , Gigantic O.T.N vs Polygon vs Big Money vs Rhythmical Planet vs Akasha(ignore's ver) and more.
Though osu!mania is osu!mania and it's not necessary that we follow them at all (they have errors too), but they do provide good reference. (Edit: And this is also player feedback because they testplay-ed them for years.)
Since this list is not finalized, I suggest my original point - Let's make the diff calculation FUN and EASY TO USE.
I believe just like what you have done in TP, there are always weighted beatmaps, that most people think that's "overrated" or "underrated".
However, does that mean , when 20 players go here to say that a map is underrated, the map is truly underrated?
In many case, some parameters are just compromise of people who have discussed stuff here. Too many players, whether high ranked or not, are not possible, or don't want to discuss here (You know this is an English-only talk, and I know too many Chinese who can't participate in because they can't write in English well).
So what I suggest is: We should not focus on criticizing that "Oh a map is underrated
When I talked about "easy to use", I'm curious about the speed of the algorithm. Is it quick enough that it uses only a few seconds to calculate 30k maps? (I think dev had give up that once in the past when they want to improve SD)
Edit: some text arrangement.
DT shouldn't count as extra pp if vision mods, HR, or RD don't give extra pp.
The end.
The end.
A better play in DT with a slightly lower score is never considered when a slightly higher scored normal play exists since score isn't multiplied when using DT.
So... that is kind of a problem.
So... that is kind of a problem.
Most mania players said in #osumania that DT has bug. So I tried to play a mania map song that I dont have records yet in DT mod.
finished playing DT and I got low score but gained 45 PP. Then I thought I can beat it without DT and Yes I beat it with higher score. Instead of getting higher PP, my PP reduced to 45 returning to my current PP I got before playing the map.
finished playing DT and I got low score but gained 45 PP. Then I thought I can beat it without DT and Yes I beat it with higher score. Instead of getting higher PP, my PP reduced to 45 returning to my current PP I got before playing the map.
In that case, DT SHOULD not give extra pp, and should be fixed if it's not supposed to.
The issue here is that DT doesn't increase the score multiplier in mania and that the score is capped at 1 million. This means that even if you make a better score pp-wise with DT and do not beat your standard speed highscore, which is worth less pp, nothing will happen.
This gives an "unfair" advantage to those who didn't make a good standard speed score on a map and can play it with DT instead which gives more pp due to the increased difficulty of the map. Indeed, there are players who could make a decent score with the DT mod, but won't get anything out of it even if it is way harder than in normal speed because they already have a good standard score.
I see no way of solving this issue and keeping the score limit at 1 million at the same time unless it is possible to count only the best performance on a song instead of the best score.
This gives an "unfair" advantage to those who didn't make a good standard speed score on a map and can play it with DT instead which gives more pp due to the increased difficulty of the map. Indeed, there are players who could make a decent score with the DT mod, but won't get anything out of it even if it is way harder than in normal speed because they already have a good standard score.
I see no way of solving this issue and keeping the score limit at 1 million at the same time unless it is possible to count only the best performance on a song instead of the best score.
Like TP I believe the new PP consider a map DT'd a brand new one, and the extra PP is considered as you playing a new map (with higher difficulty).
However considering current parameter (score) using for PP calculation, I DO think giving DT more PP is not justice to high 300g ratio players...
just like what Fudgyking wrote, it's unfair to these players who struggle to get a higher standard speed score with even 1 less 300, and will eventually hurt thesocietycommunity by implying of "Playing hard maps, not to play a map accurately".
However considering current parameter (score) using for PP calculation, I DO think giving DT more PP is not justice to high 300g ratio players...
just like what Fudgyking wrote, it's unfair to these players who struggle to get a higher standard speed score with even 1 less 300, and will eventually hurt the
This guy nailed it.Fudgyking wrote:
The issue here is that DT doesn't increase the score multiplier in mania and that the score is capped at 1 million. This means that even if you make a better score pp-wise with DT and do not beat your standard speed highscore, which is worth less pp, nothing will happen.
This gives an "unfair" advantage to those who didn't make a good standard speed score on a map and can play it with DT instead which gives more pp due to the increased difficulty of the map. Indeed, there are players who could make a decent score with the DT mod, but won't get anything out of it even if it is way harder than in normal speed because they already have a good standard score.
I see no way of solving this issue and keeping the score limit at 1 million at the same time unless it is possible to count only the best performance on a song instead of the best score.
Sorry for double posting, but I believe 50+ difficulty maps need more feedback.
As soon as I dig into 50+ diff maps (I have testplayed them for 3 hours), I found that it's just chaos. Difficulty numbers goes random, when a few 70s can be nearly the same hard as 60s or even 50s and a few 60s is hard to hell.
I know I'm a note-biased player (I can't play sliders-biased pattern well), so I believe others would have different thoughts. And most feedbacks I have seen is focused on 30 or even lower difficulty maps, maybe we can now check these overjoy maps?
(Though there are not many maps which have 50+ difficulty ranked (actually only 1), maybe we still need to work on this to prepare for these hard maps?)
As soon as I dig into 50+ diff maps (I have testplayed them for 3 hours), I found that it's just chaos. Difficulty numbers goes random, when a few 70s can be nearly the same hard as 60s or even 50s and a few 60s is hard to hell.
I know I'm a note-biased player (I can't play sliders-biased pattern well), so I believe others would have different thoughts. And most feedbacks I have seen is focused on 30 or even lower difficulty maps, maybe we can now check these overjoy maps?
(Though there are not many maps which have 50+ difficulty ranked (actually only 1), maybe we still need to work on this to prepare for these hard maps?)
Also how are calculations working for auto converts now? I have a auto convert in my Best Performances list, but I think I've played better songs.
How about HD/FL ?
Those mods needs considering too to be honest.
Since lots of people (including me) played mania specific maps and yet it just like the same as no mod plays.
Those mods needs considering too to be honest.
Since lots of people (including me) played mania specific maps and yet it just like the same as no mod plays.
@Fafeluke
All vision mods aren't giving any extra pp at the moment. The only mod giving more pp than usual is DT.
All vision mods aren't giving any extra pp at the moment. The only mod giving more pp than usual is DT.
On every single map I played with HD I had the same result as nomod; I don't play HD regularly and have not much experience with the mod but it feels like it makes no difference at all difficulty-wise.Fafeluke wrote:
How about HD/FL ?
Those mods needs considering too to be honest.
Can't speak for FL since I don't play it but I know people who play FL often end up finding it easier than nomod.
This is a great point -- there are probably a number of players who actually use hidden to legitimately reduce the number of objects/notes on screen. Score shouldn't be increased under any hidden circumstance. Fade in produces a similar effect, just the opposite portion of the screen.Aqo wrote:
On every single map I played with HD I had the same result as nomod; I don't play HD regularly and have not much experience with the mod but it feels like it makes no difference at all difficulty-wise.Fafeluke wrote:
How about HD/FL ?
Those mods needs considering too to be honest.
Can't speak for FL since I don't play it but I know people who play FL often end up finding it easier than nomod.
However, FL is a different exception -- the amount of space that you have to read guarantees that you will have to lower your scroll speed by a tremendous amount. At this point, you'd likely being reading something incredibly dense or memorizing the chart. Either way, for consistency's sake, it would be a better idea just to leave the multipliers both at 1.00x.