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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (osu!mania)

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Xcrypt
264 posts
Joined July 2013
Xcrypt
Something quick and dirty I made that reflects my personal view on how such a system should deal with accuracy.
This is only on a per diff/map basis and it assumes an average experienced player's 300/300G distribution.
There are 96 points to be gained. More points mean better performance, this is what the vertical axis represents. The horizontal axis represents the end % result of the play.
Anything below 50% is worth 0 points, just because this can be often be achieved by spamming the fingers in some random pattern.

While this may look steep, I'm pretty sure it's far less steep than what is implemented in standard or what o!m currently has.
I'm basically saying someone who can get SS on a song deserves twice as much score as one who can A it. While in reality, the person who can SS is probably more than two times as good but like I said, stressing this too much leads to accuracy becoming 'the only viable playstyle' while I aimed to seek some kind of balance here between the different playstyles.

rate and flame! :p

Cozzzy
94 posts
Joined October 2012
Cozzzy
The timing windows in o!m are fairly huge, so an exponential accuracy rating seems fair. Even on some difficult maps, 98% can be considered pretty low. I also agree about super low acc scores like 50% not getting calculated, mainly so mashing gets discouraged.

Also, a few posts back I remember seeing some plans to make HR mod count towards your acc score. Does this mean it's becoming a rankable mod? : o
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
I've always found ranked mods to be ridiculous. There are enough of different playstyles and mapping styles to keep everyone on a equal footing and the game entertaining. HR for example would be far too much of an advantage for accuracy-style players.

but that's just my opinion
Xcrypt
264 posts
Joined July 2013
Xcrypt
Pyakura, the way mods work in standard is basically they don't help your scoring at all unless the map is too easy for you. (I'm not really experienced in std but this is what it seemed like to me: the difficulty of the mods far outweigh the score bonuses unless you already mastered the map)
HR would be great for accuracy players to which the map is too easy, and DT for hard clearers for whom the map is too ez.
So I don't think it's such a bad idea tbh. It's not necessary per se for overall rankings assuming that we have enough ranked maps hard enough for the best players, but for per map rankings it can certainly be cool.
kuuderes_shadow
132 posts
Joined May 2013
kuuderes_shadow
Except at the moment we don't have a ranked HR mod, so the only way to get that boost is to do DT which mutilates the song.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
Accuracy shouldn't be looked at at all. Use score.

I tested on many maps now and it seems like score is FAR more credible for how well you can play a map than accuracy% (honestly accuracies are completely random, who doesn't have a million stories of beating an A with a B and so on); it's also pretty much immune to mapper-selected OD values which is cool.

Below 500,000 score = pure mash

500-600 = controlled mashing
600-700 = playing maps just outside of your reading limits. this is the main thing that should give performance.
700-800 = playing maps on the border of your reading limits. this is usually where you start to get S rank.
800-900 = the map is easy for you
900-999 = farming accuracy
Xcrypt
264 posts
Joined July 2013
Xcrypt
Beating an A with a B is almost always because of the 300/300g distribution varied, which is not considered in my quick and dirty calculation. So yes, score may be more accurate. I just wanted to give more or less an approximation for a relation that tries to balance the performance gained for all playstyles.
'the map is too easy for you' on 800-900 that really depends on the player. Most accuracy players won't agree, but since most of the experienced players come from o2jam here that seems pretty accurate for me and probably most others lol.
Tromend
3 posts
Joined December 2011
Tromend
To be completely honest, the Acc% is a good way too gauge just in WHICH category the player is on this map, being those categories the ones Aqo posted.

Just to be a lil' bit more precise on the matter, S ranking starts at 95,0001 acc% (YES 95 is an A) A goes from 95 to 90,0001 (the same applies to any other rank) and then from this point on it decreases in values of 10, so B is 90-80, C is 80-70 and D is -70.

With this in mind let's get into the scores, this is a lil' bit ambiguous since the factor that decides the Rank is the ACC ONLY so... yeh, pretty much a guide to just know how much you need to get in a Medium note density map, not too much, not too little. Going into the too much the scores tend to get lower, meaning that the more notes you get the more are your chances to increase ACC even if you have a shitty score (Already confirmed it with an autoconvert of 30 mins.... Trust me.... a nightmare to get a decent score while trying to get a 95% acc or so to speak A just barely missing the S) and for the lower note density it just goes the other way around you tend to need higher scores for getting a higher rank.

So, Aqo pretty much did the job on this part but i'll put it again with a more accurate value (on mid-density maps I repeat)

D: Pretty much everything that oscilates into 0 and 400K

C: +400K pressing on the 515K mark (This is pretty much an estimate since its difficult to get a C on pourpose, at least for me XD)

B: +540K is definetily a B, then it kinda stops to fade out in the early 600

A: +600K and it kinda stops at 740K

S: +750K until 980K And I'm pretty sure its quite accurate, there are exceptions of course, but its pretty difficult to find an S in the 985K mark and impossible to see one on the 990's

SS: from 980K onwards..... not much to say here.

Having these data in mind I think that's better making an estimation of quality play on the Point department, but for minor adjustments on the point giving use the ACC % factor as a second option, in other words weight more the actual Score, but for scores pretty similar (tends to happen a lot) Value the ones that have more ACC%

I mean, come on, I've seen cases like of an S having (not really but something like this) 985.575 and an SS having 985.475 And man I'm sure that's just cause the guy who SS'ed couldn't get the timing good and failed at MAXing everything It is painful to have a perfect ACC and just be beaten because of the random point giving from the 300/300g as xcrypt said.

Also, I think that the Density of the map in mania affects a lot these aspects.... ACC and scores tend to be thrown off gaphics by HYPER density maps.... its just silly XDD

PS: Just trying to put some more numbers in there and also try to get the ACC and Score on the same post just to compare them more easily ;)
kuuderes_shadow
132 posts
Joined May 2013
kuuderes_shadow

Aqo wrote:

Accuracy shouldn't be looked at at all. Use score.

I tested on many maps now and it seems like score is FAR more credible for how well you can play a map than accuracy% (honestly accuracies are completely random, who doesn't have a million stories of beating an A with a B and so on); it's also pretty much immune to mapper-selected OD values which is cool.

Below 500,000 score = pure mash

500-600 = controlled mashing
600-700 = playing maps just outside of your reading limits. this is the main thing that should give performance.
700-800 = playing maps on the border of your reading limits. this is usually where you start to get S rank.
800-900 = the map is easy for you
900-999 = farming accuracy
I would change that by lowering the first two by 100K and putting a replacement 500-600 as 'know what you're meant to be doing (so not mashing) but just not able to pull it off properly'. 'Controlled mashing' will usually end up giving a score in the mid-high 400ks.

Oh and A ranks of 800k+ are actually rather common in my experience (and usually mean you completely screwed up on one part of the map, but played the rest well).

>700k B rank: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1302389

Score and rank really don't correlate all that well.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
It's common for me to get B's of 470k ~ 500k huehue
Tear
332 posts
Joined January 2012
Tear
You cannot measure mania difficulty well with just strain values. Standard is a mode that requires next to no reading skill, while mania's way more about reading than physical ability. When a map is too hard for someone, in 90% of the cases it's because they can't comprehend all the objects, not because they fingers aren't fast enough, that's why you need to analyze patterns. Two patterns with the same note density and column strain might have a very different difficulty if one's easier to read than the other.

Kamui Gakupo, KAITO & Len Kagamine - Arrest Rose [Level 22] is an example of a very well-done chart that becomes much harder with Random mod.
milky228_old
39 posts
Joined February 2013
milky228_old
I know i'm not E.T. so my opinion is probably going to be thrown out the window into a large pile of dog mess that was left behind this morning, but i'm going to say this anyway.

Mods suck! All of them, and I have a perfectly good reason for this.
Double time- If the map maker wanted the map to be in double time he would have made the song double time.
Hard Rock- Doesn't even work in mania.
Sudden Death- If you have a high rank you should be getting this anyway
Fade in - Encourages you to look in the wrong place.
Hidden - You should be looking there anyway.
Flashlight - This is just annoying, I can't even tell if i'm doing bad or not.

Well that's that out of the way, now to move onto another one of my (most likely) globally unacceptable opinions. I would prefer it if PP was decided by score not accuracy. This is because when you hit a 300perfect and a 300 they are considered as the same accuracy even though they aren't.

There we go, I've strapped the steak to my legs, now time to click "post" and drop myself into the lion pit.
Squidyy
10 posts
Joined September 2012
Squidyy

milky228 wrote:

I would prefer it if PP was decided by score not accuracy. This is because when you hit a 300perfect and a 300 they are considered as the same accuracy even though they aren't.
I can't agree any more.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

PyaKura wrote:

It's common for me to get B's of 470k ~ 500k huehue
spamspamspamspam \:D/

milky228 wrote:

I would prefer it if PP was decided by score not accuracy. This is because when you hit a 300perfect and a 300 they are considered as the same accuracy even though they aren't.
quoting again for great justice. accuracy is practically meaningless (not really, it gives a general impression, but still random and inaccurate/inconsistent) in mania, go with score.
Hestia-
271 posts
Joined June 2010
Hestia-
I agree that PP should be based on score and not accuracy.

Also, mods should not be factored into the ranking system. My biggest argument for this is that they don't give actual score bonuses in the songs like they do in standard so it would be counter-intuitive if they increased your pp. If you want mods to be calculated then you would have to make the max for songs be 1mil x modifier increase, and this is a bad idea because it takes away the beauty of having the max be a nice even number and forces people to play with stupid restrictions if they want to be competitive.
Cozzzy
94 posts
Joined October 2012
Cozzzy
Even if the 0* modifier is unintuitive, I don't see why players shouldn't be rewarded for playing more difficult maps well. It's the same as osu!standard, where (for example) rrtyui will sometimes barely get in the top 50, but is also the only player who was capable of playing it with DT.

The only mods that can't really be counted for the ranking system are the mental ones, imo. Hidden makes pretty much no difference, and on Fade-in you can just lower the scrolling speed. I haven't really tried Flashlight in mania though, so I'm not sure about that one.

Seeing as all mods are currently 0*, it should be possible to recalculate old scores, but I doubt that will happen because of the 1000000 cap. :o
PhantomPilot
2 posts
Joined October 2012
PhantomPilot
EDIT: -nvm, failed to read correctly-
Last edited by PhantomPilot , edited 1 time in total.
Tear
332 posts
Joined January 2012
Tear

Cozzzy wrote:

Even if the 0* modifier is unintuitive, I don't see why players shouldn't be rewarded for playing more difficult maps well. It's the same as osu!standard, where (for example) rrtyui will sometimes barely get in the top 50, but is also the only player who was capable of playing it with DT.
Except when you get a high nomod score, and then a slightly lower DT score (which obviously needs more skill), you won't get pp for it because only the highest score matters. Once you do well without mods, you're screwed.
[ Arterial ]
10 posts
Joined July 2013
[ Arterial ]
Would be nice if the PP system changed to score instead of rank, so a high S can yield more points than a normal SS. :D



I strongly oppose the implementation of mods into the ranking system. First of all, there is a max score for a reason, as the max score of 1,000,000 gives you a good idea of how far you are from perfection. Second of all, mods aren't worth any points right now, meaning that the implementation of mods into the rank system would lead to a HUGE fluctuation in some players's rank. Ignoring the mode specific mods such as SpinOut or FadeIn, the current mods still don't fit into the mania gameplay at all. Mania has the most flexible mode, with the greatest amount of variations, and there is simply NO need in implementing mods to spice up the ranking system.

Specific reasons why each mod is pointless:

HardRock
First part of HR: There is no point in decreasing the hitbox of the notes, as unlike the other 3 modes which are either 300/100/0, mania offers so many different possible scores (MAX, 300, 200, 100, 50, 0). HR is a thing in other modes because the max score is easily attainable, yet for most mania maps, 1,000,000 is quite a hard task.
Second part of HR: What are you going to do, increase the scroll speed? The scroll speed has 0 influence on the score and the game, as everyone can change the speed to something that they feel comfortable with. If HR increased scroll speed, we could simply slow the scroll down manually.

FadeIn/Hidden
FadeIn/Hidden would have been a decent mod for ranking, as unlike HR, players cannot manipulate the visual strain it adds. However, the idea that the hidden part increases after each successive note (until around 70%) is simply retarded (I really can't find another word), as the variation in how much of the screen is hidden makes the mod easily manipulable.

DoubleTime/NightCore
DESTROYS THE SONG. Jokes aside, a big part of DT is about the increase in visual strain, as the notes speed increase as well. Same argument for HR. DT is still barely viable just because of how you have to click the notes quicker now.

FlashLight
No comment.
iJXL
73 posts
Joined December 2012
iJXL

RebelSlayer wrote:

mods should not be factored into the ranking system.

Andrew Chow wrote:

I strongly oppose the implementation of mods into the ranking system.
Me too! ^ :)
NonxE
51 posts
Joined April 2010
NonxE
Besides score, Combo is very important to determine players' skilll in hard chart. Although the combo system in o!m is fluctuated (Ex. Those who get #1 got less combo than others), some patern allows only high skilled players to FC, and the score system does little impact on that.
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream


See this shit? Niclijou is this high when he is always using these key mods! This was today, and the whole time he had 4k on. This is why the key mods should be unranked.

HR is unranked, yet it only changes the accuracy for notes.
RD is unranked, but even though it changes the note placements, it still will let you end with the same combo number of the song.
And yet, Key Mods are ranked, even though they change the whole songs track and combo number!

Some people are saying "But some good songs are low key counts." YES I KNOW! I play those songs too and not always 7k! I just want the mod unranked, not the lower key songs!

Take this into consideration people, it's totally unfair for all of us skilled players.
Squidyy
10 posts
Joined September 2012
Squidyy

October Scream wrote:



See this shit? Niclijou is this high when he is always using these key mods! This was today, and the whole time he had 4k on. This is why the key mods should be unranked.

HR is unranked, yet it only changes the accuracy for notes.
RD is unranked, but even though it changes the note placements, it still will let you end with the same combo number of the song.
And yet, Key Mods are ranked, even though they change the whole songs track and combo number!

Some people are saying "But some good songs are low key counts." YES I KNOW! I play those songs too and not always 7k! I just want the mod unranked, not the lower key songs!

Take this into consideration people, it's totally unfair for all of us skilled players.
I didn't even know key mods were ranked. What the hell?! That is a load of crap. That shouldn't be ranked at all.
Drace_old_1
314 posts
Joined April 2011
Drace_old_1
Well keymods don't work on mania specific maps. So it won't be a problem if..... on second thought, let's not bring that up right now.

Also I completely disagree with who ever said combo is important.This isn't standard, a play with high acc and 2 misses, one at 1/3 and 2/3, is much more impressive then someone who missed 5 notes at the end of the song. Miss count is pretty much included in accuracy, making combo the most useless and broken score calculating utility.

Also, why is everyone talking about mods? No one ever said that they'd be considered in ppv2, this is greatly off topic. We should be contributing on what makes a map hard and what makes a map easy, with possible example, to help tom make his algorithm.
Cozzzy
94 posts
Joined October 2012
Cozzzy

October Scream wrote:



See this shit? Niclijou is this high when he is always using these key mods! This was today, and the whole time he had 4k on. This is why the key mods should be unranked.

HR is unranked, yet it only changes the accuracy for notes.
RD is unranked, but even though it changes the note placements, it still will let you end with the same combo number of the song.
And yet, Key Mods are ranked, even though they change the whole songs track and combo number!

Some people are saying "But some good songs are low key counts." YES I KNOW! I play those songs too and not always 7k! I just want the mod unranked, not the lower key songs!

Take this into consideration people, it's totally unfair for all of us skilled players.
That rank is from the old & broken PP system, from farming easy maps that are low key by default - key mods have nothing to do with this.

If you're seriously complaining about someone using a mod combination in multi for fun that gives them a maximum score cap of 200,000 then wut.

Drace wrote:

We should be contributing on what makes a map hard and what makes a map easy, with possible example, to help tom make his algorithm.
This!

Imo, this topic should get cleaned until Tom can get his first algorithm out so we can give proper feedback. At the moment without a base, all we can really do is indicate which patterns are tricky, rather than actually help improve it
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream
@Drace, I'm specifically talking about key mods, not trying toget other mods up.

Also, I bring up combo because it's a simpler amount of notes reference.

@Cozzzy, If the old system were the case, wouldn't those players still be low? Wouldn't we all be back to the ppv1 placements? Also, EZ and NF don't affect pp given (Same pp reduction is applied), I was trying to point out key mods -_-
Cozzzy
94 posts
Joined October 2012
Cozzzy

October Scream wrote:

@Cozzzy, If the old system were the case, wouldn't those players still be low? Wouldn't we all be back to the ppv1 placements? Also, EZ and NF don't affect pp given (Same pp reduction is applied), I was trying to point out key mods -_-
Mania rankings on the site still redirect here https://osu.ppy.sh/news/73929298672 so idk why the broken preview-rankings still show up in-game, but we're basically still using the old PPv1 system with even more bias towards easy accuracy scores at the moment, but that'll get fixed. My point was that in that player's example, he didn't use key mods for his rank at all, but just played easy songs.

Honestly, I just don't like it when people imply that anyone who doesn't play 7K exclusively is not a "skilled player". Without the key mod, I'd have to play the slow LN-spam maps people keep making for 4K :(
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream

Cozzzy wrote:

Mania rankings on the site still redirect here https://osu.ppy.sh/news/73929298672 so idk why the broken preview-rankings still show up in-game, but we're basically still using the old PPv1 system with even more bias towards easy accuracy scores at the moment, but that'll get fixed. My point was that in that player's example, he didn't use key mods for his rank at all, but just played easy songs.

Honestly, I just don't like it when people imply that anyone who doesn't play 7K exclusively is not a "skilled player". Without the key mod, I'd have to play the slow LN-spam maps people keep making for 4K :(
First, I did not imply that only skilled players should only use 7k. I mentioned that in my first picture post. I play other key songs, just only if the max diff isn't 7k.

Second, LN-spam maps? Those are mania specific, and shouldn't change keys when you want it. Also, LN are a huge thing in o2jam, and that's the closest reference to this game. Some people can make good LN maps, then some people are just plain shit.

And finally, if he played easy songs, he should be as low as the pit of earth from pp.
Key mods are a mania only thing. No other modes have any mod specifically for their purpose of changing the notes, and because of that, the new system currently ignores that mod and gives all pp to a max diff key mod play.
falkon13
5 posts
Joined August 2012
falkon13
Are auto converts a big deal in rankings? Admittedly this evidence is anecdotal and I don't know what ranking system the ingame system is displaying, but when I was solely playing auto converts I was just inside the 10k mark, ever since I've been playing osu!mania specific maps my ranking has shot up to 3k. I haven't suddenly become a much better player, but I've suddenly overtaken seven thousand people.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura

falkon13 wrote:

Are auto converts a big deal in rankings? Admittedly this evidence is anecdotal and I don't know what ranking system the ingame system is displaying, but when I was solely playing auto converts I was just inside the 10k mark, ever since I've been playing osu!mania specific maps my ranking has shot up to 3k. I haven't suddenly become a much better player, but I've suddenly overtaken seven thousand people.
If you mean that you've become #3k or so during the last 3 or 4 weeks it's normal, lots of people have seen their rank skyrockets.

Anyways, to answer your question (I'll try to make it short since it has already been discussed for a dozen pages now), autoconverts aren't good enough (quality, gameplay-wise) to reflect what actual mania (-> maps made specifically for mania) provides. Just read through the entire thread to see arguments as to why we should keep or remove them from the ranking system.

The topic atm is helping Tom defining what a easy/hard map is for his algorithm.
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream
What if we had something like a MMTT? (Mania Map Testing Team)

Since most mania maps have their multiple difficulties and some being harder than the highest star rating in there (ex. Wotamin-Gigantic O.T.N. Entozer's Another > L.I.A.'s Insane difficulty wise), the team would test a map before it is qualified or approved and they send in their difficulty ratings? I think this would help with the mania specific maps a lot.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
It would indeed work, but as Tom suggested, we should leave Tom his chance at making an algorithm to see if it works. Hopefully (and surely) it will work better than ppv1 :p
Envisionise
40 posts
Joined June 2013
Envisionise

October Scream wrote:

What if we had something like a MMTT? (Mania Map Testing Team)

Since most mania maps have their multiple difficulties and some being harder than the highest star rating in there (ex. Wotamin-Gigantic O.T.N. Entozer's Another > L.I.A.'s Insane difficulty wise), the team would test a map before it is qualified or approved and they send in their difficulty ratings? I think this would help with the mania specific maps a lot.
We have discussed this earlier in the thread (page 7), but Tom wants to try create an algorithm first. It would be easier it there was an algorithm, but a team dedicated to judging the difficulties of maps would also be very accurate.
Edit: typos
Last edited by Envisionise , edited 1 time in total.
[ Arterial ]
10 posts
Joined July 2013
[ Arterial ]
Good luck with an algorithm, but mania is probably one of the hardest modes to accurately calculate with a single unchanging formula, as there is simply too many variations possible with long notes and short notes in 7 keys.

MMTT would be a perfect (if not essential) way of accurately calculating a map's actual difficulty. The current star rankings aren't doing that much, and self imposed difficulty names such as [ADV, EXH, INF], [EZ, NM, HD, MX, EX, SC, SHD] or arbitrary levels such as XXX's Lvl 36 can often vary between one mapper and another. There are so many maps that are far beyond the max star rating (examples include SHD maps such as Ende, Mephisto, Shuffle Heaven, Big Money, Days of Dash or straight-up hard maps such as Imperishable Night 2006, or Sweet Rain [Another (somehow mapped tagged as "Normal" difficulty]).

And just out of curiosity, will there be a temporary ranking released any time soon?
takumi9613
9 posts
Joined January 2014
takumi9613

Tom94 wrote:

Hello everyone,

note that currently the osu!mania ranking is not functional. If you have any suggestions on how the future system should work, then leave it in this thread, please. :)


I'd like to mention a few things regarding how I plan on tackling this.

The general direction:

  1. First of all, everyone can decide on his/her own which maps he deems good or bad, or which ones he/she prefers playing. We shouldn't be forcing certain maps on people by making them worth more for no sensible reason.
  2. I'll try to make an algorithm that's fair for both auto-converts and mode-specific maps. We will all see how it turns out, and if it's alright, then I see no reason to reduce the value of auto-converts. As mentioned above you are still free to play the maps you prefer playing. I can however understand where the auto-convert argument is coming from, and it'll definitely be addressed if there won't be a good solution that weights all maps the same.
  3. Default X-key modes exist for each specific beatmap for a reason. My initial plan is to give slightly more points to the default X-key mode of a particular beatmap than any custom one. This is not set in stone yet and most likely will change in one way or another while testing.
  4. Unfortunately X-key specific ranking is not going to happen. That'd be for one part a way too huge amount of things to manage and for the other would clutter up everything.

Beatmap difficulty:

This is were you all can help the most. My current concept is somewhere along the following: Similarly to how tp works with osu! standard maps I would like to instroduce strain values to measure how hard it is to play a certain map. This essentially means, that a higher note density will also be considered harder, while the algorithm is aware, that using a single hand or finger multiple times in a row is more demanding than simply alternating.
For mods the map will simply be transformed accordingly to what standard does in the moment. HR will increase OD, DT the speed at which the map plays back, etc.
I have not yet gone in-depth and it would be great if you could give me hints of what the hardest patterns are and how to rate difficulty. Any X-key feedback is welcome!
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream
@takumi9613, why quote what we all can read at the front of the thread....?
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
If it counts in auto converts it should has something in it about the sliders. In osu standard maps the circle to slider rate is often 1:2 or so for sliders and this goes pretty bad in mania. Even if it is an autoconvert you are playing it way relaxing with those high amount of sliders. If you pay attention to it while playing an autoconvert you will notice that most of the time your hands are resting and your inputs are actually very slow and there is not much you are actually doing, even if the song sounds super fast or difficult or so. You can play extremely fast songs that are difficult in standard mode alot easier. example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/38316. That song is 250 bpm but most of the time what you are doing, is just holding down the sliders which isnt hard and prepare for the occassional burst of notes and then go back to holding sliders. Who is afraid of the big black is also a good example of how auto convert can turn a very difficult beatmap to something so simple.
Most older beatmaps, or beatmaps with fewer slider count translate into more diffcult beatmaps. If there are few sliders the autoconvert will create more notes and you have to "play more" compared to a autoconvert with alot of sliders.
Examples:

Those autoconverts convert into maps with alot of notes
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/43960 Extra diff
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/103281 Collab diff
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/125102 Another diff
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152561 Extra diff

Also no idea if this is related but auto convert also likes to scramble the notes for streams under 160 bpm or so all over your keys and from 160~200ish bpm streams will often turn out as a simple staircase. On even higher bpms i think auto convert starts scrambling it again. Well not sure about the actual BPM numbers there but its just - lower BPM, scrambled streams - hgher BPM staircase. I think one find the other easier but i think a simple left right motion is easier to play than multiple notes at many different keys
PhantomPilot
2 posts
Joined October 2012
PhantomPilot

Hanyuu wrote:

If it counts in auto converts it should has something in it about the sliders.
Are you arguing to change the way autoconverts are generated? They'll be bad no matter how they're converted. The extra dimension of having to aim with the cursor is lost when converting to mania so it's essentially trying to expand a 1 key game into a 4-7 key game and it simply doesn't work well.

In case I missed the point entirely: the ranking algorithm should already into account the low strain and note density of slider maps so they shouldn't be worth much anyway.
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
Wat
Staiain
152 posts
Joined March 2009
Staiain
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/259067&m=3

would be interesting to see what diff the system sets this map as
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94
As for Taiko and CtB I also got an initial list for osu!mania ready now. This is the gamemode I am the least sure about my results and so far only the base algorithm is done with no variations. However, you can already see how low converts are weighted simply because they are so easy, I've included a few of the harder ones:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... _web#gid=0

Get the feedback going. ;)
Zealtron
28 posts
Joined July 2009
Zealtron
Some quick feedback on things I'm seeing right off the bat. I'm seeing a lot more lower key maps being put at a higher difficulty than higher key maps, even though they're quite a bit easier.
ex. Akasha's 8k FEVER is lower than Little Star 4k INF.
unfinished's 4k Accel is 8 higher than its 7k Burst.

Another issue is how you're handling the difficulty for long notes (or maybe HP Drain/OD). Wintersun 7k Winter is definitely a lot lower than it should be.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Zealtron wrote:

Some quick feedback on things I'm seeing right off the bat. I'm seeing a lot more lower key maps being put at a higher difficulty than higher key maps, even though they're quite a bit easier.
ex. Akasha's 8k FEVER is lower than Little Star 4k INF.
unfinished's 4k Accel is 8 higher than its 7k Burst.

Another issue is how you're handling the difficulty for long notes (or maybe HP Drain/OD). Wintersun 7k Winter is definitely a lot lower than it should be.
Lower key maps should be worth a lot less now. Also there was a bug with holds that made them considered pretty much not at all. This has been fixed, too.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
Re-linking Tom's link since this is the first post in the page: http://tinyurl.com/q3osedx

-

For science, please add these autoconverts to the sample pool for the algorithm:

[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/125702 SHK - Identity Part 4 [Insane]]
[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/148009 Cuvelia - Tenkuu no Yoake [Another]]
[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152480 Memme - Extreme Fantasy [ExtrA]]
[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152561 44teru-k - Yami ~ Shoujo no Yume , Kyomu no Sekai ~ [Extra]]
[ http://osu.ppy.sh/b/125102 D.J.Amuro - F [Another]]

-

Map-specific feedback/pointers from initial checkthrough:

polygon [SHD] - Underrated. Jacks inside chords/LN patterns.
Gigantic O.T.N [Entozer's Another] - Underrated. dunno why.
Gigantic O.T.N [L i a's Mania] - Overrated. citation needed. I know this map is much harder to play well than it is to play mediocrely.
G59 [Level 36] - Underrated. citation needed.
Nou Shou Sakuretsu Girl [Hard] - Underrated. that ending...
Zoetrope (TV Size) [RC's 8K SC] - Not sure if underrated or I just suck at 8K
Hesitation Snow (Short Ver.) [8K Another] - definitely underrated but I also suck at 8K
Wintersun (Bobby D'Ambrosio Mix) [7K Winter] - underrated...? citation needed. density+LNstreams
Insane Techniques [5K Black Another] - underrated, has hard jacks in the end
Maware! Setsugekka (TV Size) [PROGUY's 6K MX] - underrated.
Crack traxxxx [4K EXH] - overrated
VALLIS-NERIA [LeiN-'s EXH] - overrated
Akasha [8K Hard] - underrated. even with me not being all that good in 7K+1 this map deserves way more than it gets.
Senretsu no ryu [Hard] - overrated

-

Overall after the hotfix this algorithm is already starting to look real nice. Jacks needs to be handled better, other than this there's some unclear factors that would need tuning.
Fudgy
47 posts
Joined December 2013
Fudgy
I looked at the document and it looked pretty accurate overall (I can't tell for harder maps), but I found something which I find weird.

For the song Igorrr - Unpleasant Sonata, the Insane converted map is considered the same level as [Shi-Ra]'s Hell [SC] mania chart. I played the Insane chart in case it was really as hard as the mania chart and it was very easy to pass compared to Shi-Ra's one, which contains a couple of hard LN parts (maybe not that hard but at least ten times as hard as those in the converted map) and has a very fast ending wich can be failed if you get out of sync too much.

I'm not an expert for judging maps but I'm convinced that if converted maps are worth less than real mania charts, the Insane converted map should not be considered the same level as the hardest mania difficulty.

I did not search for other examples and I have no idea what might cause this unless chords are worth many points, because there are much more (but not many) chords in the converted map than in the mania chart.

Apart from that, I'm very pleased to see some good progress and I can't wait for a new pp system to be implemented :)
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
Passing autoconverts is always easier than passing mania charts due to the nature of drain setting difference between the two modes and the way it transitions on the autoconvert. You should compare how hard are those maps to play correctly and not to spam through and pass (ask yourself how hard would it be for you to S it).
Xcrypt
264 posts
Joined July 2013
Xcrypt
  1. croix (roxas mx) underrated, it starts getting quite fast near the end which makes it slightly harder and makes me lose a bunch of acc.
  2. crack traxxxx 7k inf overrated, everything on this map is just on a different level than the ones you put around this level.
  3. game brain (lunatic) underrated, everything on this map is just on a different level than the ones you put around this level.
  4. wintersun (bobby dambrosio) strongly underrated, long notes are really punishing + slowjam makes it slightly harder.
  5. piano concerto no.1 (lvl 31) overrated, everything on this map is just on a different level than the ones you put around this level.
  6. G59 (lvl 36) underrated, everything on this map is just on a different level than the ones you put around this level.
  7. Gigantic O.T.N (Lia's Mania) overrated, It has same density than the diff by entozer, but this map uses more chords and minibreaks which make it require less speed, stamina and acc. On top of that, there's a lot of symmetrical patterns which make it slightly easier as well.
  8. chain destruction (siilento remix) overrated, I lose a bunch of acc on the end, but it's not enough to be that highly diff judged.
  9. smoooooch 7K SC overrated, only reason it's hard is because of the SVs which are memorizable. Should be ignored.
  10. rhythmical planet (collab) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
  11. imperishable night 2006 (7k insane) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
I judge underrated/overrated based on how hard it is to get a good score, not on a clear basis.

can't judge any of the higher diffs. can't judge any of the lower diffs. Also can't judge half the maps since I didn't play them yet. (I mostly play BMS/o2jam convs)
What I can tell is that the system seems to be non-linear.
I mean maps around 20-30 seem to be far more spread out in skill level than 40-50.
It also seems to be inconsistent, it doesn't follow a smooth exponential curve since some lower levels seem to be closer together again.
This might be irrelevant, and it might not be, you'll know that better than me. I'm just saying.

It's quite a bit rough around the edges but it doesn't seem too bad for a first try though. Good job so far ^^

On a side note: you could use aqo's 'osu!mania maps sorted by difficulity' thread as well. I don't know about the lower diffs, but the lvl 7-11 maps are sorted pretty well, I'd say it has about a 1 level error margin. do note that there is a huge gap between 11 and 12 though.
Spy
Beatmap Nominator
2,577 posts
Joined November 2011
Spy




- Levels are different too much.



- 153 is easier than 151,152 too much,shouldn't put here.



- 167 is harder than 166 too much.
richardfeder
1,062 posts
Joined March 2013
richardfeder
Just a quick glance >,<
Clearly there is huge issue about low key amount diff earning a relative high difficulty. One thing I want to point out is that you cannot simply put them all under one single rating system although we have to do that in the future anyway. So now in the early stage of ppv2 I suggest make unique list for every key amount or at least don't put something completely different(for instant 8k and 4k) together. The comparison among different key amount are totally none sense for now.

A couple of opinions:

In difficulty 6, take a look at 7k charts.
Unfinished 7k Hard and Eden HD. Those two clearly don't belong the group of difficulty 6.
Eden HD -> although there is no really outstanding difficult part in this chart, parts contain continuously 1/4 in a relatively high BPM and many 4key-press at the same time make this chart extremely hard compare to other maps in the same level.
Unfinished 7k Hard -> 146BPM with some 1/4 and easy 1/2... seems not harder than other maps in this level. Actually not. Pattern make this chart a little bit hard to read and press for players in that level such as 00:20:065 - and 00:25:099 - , and for those who can not master higher level it is extremely hard to earn FC and high acc(OD8 btw).
So what's important? Sharing a similar average density, songs contain remarkable hard part (like burst or strange pattern) are usually deserved a higher difficulty. Everything unique may makes a chart harder than usual.

Xcrypt wrote:

  1. rhythmical planet (collab) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
  2. imperishable night 2006 (7k insane) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
I judge underrated/overrated based on how hard it is to get a good score, not on a clear basis.
That is a problem. hard charts with lower average difficulties usually result in good score and OK acc, but actually to master them you need to enter a much higher level in order to manage those extreme hard part. This cause many underrated cases in the list and we need to pay more attention on the maximum difficulty of a chart to judge its rate.
Same thing also happened in 4k. Eg: Wu Xuan Lan 4k Hard and Insane Techniques 4k Hyper


Speed change and large amounts of LNs makes difficulty rise. We're so Happy obviously easier than other two charts due to this reason.
LNs patterns and speed change should also be considered.

Good Job!
[ Arterial ]
10 posts
Joined July 2013
[ Arterial ]
Just out of curiosity, why does the system count the easier map as my highest PP yielding map?


From my userpage, it says the 4K map is my one of my highest maps when in fact, I did a lot better in a higher difficulty.


Is there a reason for this? Am I mistaken for saying that each beatmap only accounts for the score with the highest difficulty? (Well even if thats the case, shouldn't the 7k map be ranked as a higher PP map for me?

EDIT: Does this mean that ranked accuracy also takes into account converted beatmaps and beatmaps of lower difficulties?
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Andrew Chow wrote:

Is there a reason for this? Am I mistaken for saying that each beatmap only accounts for the score with the highest difficulty? (Well even if thats the case, shouldn't the 7k map be ranked as a higher PP map for me?

EDIT: Does this mean that ranked accuracy also takes into account converted beatmaps and beatmaps of lower difficulties?
The current pp system is not functional. Please read the opening post next time.
[ Arterial ]
10 posts
Joined July 2013
[ Arterial ]

Tom94 wrote:

Andrew Chow wrote:

Is there a reason for this? Am I mistaken for saying that each beatmap only accounts for the score with the highest difficulty? (Well even if thats the case, shouldn't the 7k map be ranked as a higher PP map for me?

EDIT: Does this mean that ranked accuracy also takes into account converted beatmaps and beatmaps of lower difficulties?
The current pp system is not functional. Please read the opening post next time.
I've been to this page at least 30 times and I've read the opening post quite a few times.

When you said the pp system was not functional I thought you meant that the PP calculations were not altered yet, not that the percentage accuracy was not functional. My bad anyways.
Envisionise
40 posts
Joined June 2013
Envisionise
First of all, wow this list is looking pretty nice. Goob job Tom!

Here are a couple of inconsistencies I found

41 - Passionate 7k SHD - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/312638
Underrated, the layered long notes and the sv change is much harder for this level
36 - Freedom Dive 7k SHD - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/208353
Underrated, this is very very hard overall.
44 - Shining collection, Erox's Shining time - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/296010
Slightly overrated imo, not many layered long notes or any of the crazier patterns.
25 - Ascension to Heaven (LV. 44) - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/279472
Quite overrated, this has raining notes but no layered long notes, is much easier than long note overlap heavy songs
123 - Days of Dash Shi-Ra x Rumi SHD - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/326507
To me, very underrated. Long notes are hard.

These are a few that aren't listed by the others that I believe that are slightly off. Thanks for the read!
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
What you said about Ascension to Heaven and Days of Dash is pretty subjective, I know a few people having a harder time with density maps than with LNs heavy maps.
blood4_old
2 posts
Joined July 2011
blood4_old

Tom94 wrote:

Hello everyone,

note that currently the osu!mania ranking is not functional. If you have any suggestions on how the future system should work, then leave it in this thread, please. :)


I'd like to mention a few things regarding how I plan on tackling this.

The general direction:

  1. First of all, everyone can decide on his/her own which maps he deems good or bad, or which ones he/she prefers playing. We shouldn't be forcing certain maps on people by making them worth more for no sensible reason.
  2. I'll try to make an algorithm that's fair for both auto-converts and mode-specific maps. We will all see how it turns out, and if it's alright, then I see no reason to reduce the value of auto-converts. As mentioned above you are still free to play the maps you prefer playing. I can however understand where the auto-convert argument is coming from, and it'll definitely be addressed if there won't be a good solution that weights all maps the same.
  3. Default X-key modes exist for each specific beatmap for a reason. My initial plan is to give slightly more points to the default X-key mode of a particular beatmap than any custom one. This is not set in stone yet and most likely will change in one way or another while testing.
  4. Unfortunately X-key specific ranking is not going to happen. That'd be for one part a way too huge amount of things to manage and for the other would clutter up everything.

Beatmap difficulty:

As for Taiko and CtB I also got an initial difficulty list for osu!mania ready. This is the gamemode I am the least sure about my results and so far only the base algorithm is done with no variations. However, you can already see how low converts are weighted simply because they are so easy, I've included a few of the harder ones:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... _web#gid=0

Get the feedback going. ;)
Fee_old_1
10 posts
Joined August 2013
Fee_old_1
Is there an estimated completion time?
17VA
1,007 posts
Joined September 2012
17VA
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/254644

unfinished lv 69 - underrated. longnotes in lastphase are really insane.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/370840

native faith 1K master? - why 1K

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/338759

koi yomi zakura - overrated.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/198272

god knows insane + - overrated.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/329213

sister's noise lvl 42 - underrated. this should placed in 75 ~ 77

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/219360

utakata, ai no mahoroba - this is super - overrated. it's very easy to fc as ChaiN De/structioN (siilento's solid remix) another

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/370953

native faith 8K Lunatic - this is super - underrated. why this et chart is placed on #107?

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/370882

hesitation snow 8K Another - super underrated. this is harder than Imperishable Night 2006 7K insane diff...

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/257529

smooooch 7K SC - super overrated. this is map is very easy... why this is placed on #88...

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/298849

future gazer 7K SC - underrated... I think this map should be placed on around #117

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/326507

DAYS of DASH shira x rumi SHD - underrated. this is harder than gigantic o.t.n entozer's mania.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/278050

Aoi Eir - INNOCENCE (TV Size) lvl 26 - overrated.
Secretpipe
3,316 posts
Joined December 2012
Secretpipe
Finally !
Wishing the best for that new system xD
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/231825?m=3 porno map top performance

[Normal] autoconverts beating 90% on mania specific highdiffs of charts

something somewhere went horribly wrong. please fix.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Aqo wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/231825?m=3 porno map top performance

[Normal] autoconverts beating 90% on mania specific highdiffs of charts

something somewhere went horribly wrong. please fix.
Fixed already. Further algorithm changes regarding score scaling incoming soon.
Xenlon
25 posts
Joined January 2013
Xenlon
Since the update I am horribly lagging. Its really unplayable
Am I the only one?
Last edited by Xenlon , edited 1 time in total.
AekaShiraki
144 posts
Joined May 2013
AekaShiraki
no..
me too
Xcrypt
264 posts
Joined July 2013
Xcrypt
I have the same issue, and I know others who have too. Some of the harder maps became unplayable because of the choppiness.
Oh and good job Tom 8-)
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Xcrypt wrote:

I have the same issue, and I know others who have too. Some of the harder maps became unplayable because of the choppiness.
Oh and good job Tom 8-)
The lags have nothing to do with pp updates. And thanks. ^^
BSHFT BADT GMBH
BSHFT BADT GMBH
Is it normal that weird auto-converted maps on the highest difficulty can beat any mania map by a ton?

Songs like:
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152561?m=3
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/198428?m=3
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152480?m=3

Everyone can recieve tremendous amounts of PP just by ranking them moderatly with any mod and I bet there are way more.
Xenlon
25 posts
Joined January 2013
Xenlon
I forgot to leave feedback:

I think its really unstable right now,because strange/easy converted maps gives you more pp then the mania-diffs
For example the Top Ranks from a friend of mine;His best maps are converted 7k maps he played several months ago with the mod 4k

I suggest the ranking from before(This from for example yesterday :D ) IF you dont get with Half-time nearly the same amount of pp then without Half-Time.
The only problem I meen was that the amount of pp you may get depends on the accuracy (Excuse me, if this is not true but it makes the apparent)

But I am still confused cause of the laggs D:
Cozzzy
94 posts
Joined October 2012
Cozzzy

SM_Bluefusion wrote:

Is it normal that weird auto-converted maps on the highest difficulty can beat any mania map by a ton?

Songs like:
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152561?m=3
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/198428?m=3
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152480?m=3

Everyone can recieve tremendous amounts of PP just by ranking them moderatly with any mod and I bet there are way more.
Agreed. I was wondering how two of those ended up in my BP. Somehow, Extreme Fantasy 4K 99% is worth more than my Imperishable Night A rank too :o
REDYUMiKA
485 posts
Joined August 2013
REDYUMiKA

richardfeder wrote:

Just a quick glance >,<
Clearly there is huge issue about low key amount diff earning a relative high difficulty. One thing I want to point out is that you cannot simply put them all under one single rating system although we have to do that in the future anyway. So now in the early stage of ppv2 I suggest make unique list for every key amount or at least don't put something completely different(for instant 8k and 4k) together. The comparison among different key amount are totally none sense for now.

A couple of opinions:

In difficulty 6, take a look at 7k charts.
Unfinished 7k Hard and Eden HD. Those two clearly don't belong the group of difficulty 6.
Eden HD -> although there is no really outstanding difficult part in this chart, parts contain continuously 1/4 in a relatively high BPM and many 4key-press at the same time make this chart extremely hard compare to other maps in the same level.
Unfinished 7k Hard -> 146BPM with some 1/4 and easy 1/2... seems not harder than other maps in this level. Actually not. Pattern make this chart a little bit hard to read and press for players in that level such as 00:20:065 - and 00:25:099 - , and for those who can not master higher level it is extremely hard to earn FC and high acc(OD8 btw).
So what's important? Sharing a similar average density, songs contain remarkable hard part (like burst or strange pattern) are usually deserved a higher difficulty. Everything unique may makes a chart harder than usual.

Xcrypt wrote:

  1. rhythmical planet (collab) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
  2. imperishable night 2006 (7k insane) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
I judge underrated/overrated based on how hard it is to get a good score, not on a clear basis.
That is a problem. hard charts with lower average difficulties usually result in good score and OK acc, but actually to master them you need to enter a much higher level in order to manage those extreme hard part. This cause many underrated cases in the list and we need to pay more attention on the maximum difficulty of a chart to judge its rate.
Same thing also happened in 4k. Eg: Wu Xuan Lan 4k Hard and Insane Techniques 4k Hyper


Speed change and large amounts of LNs makes difficulty rise. We're so Happy obviously easier than other two charts due to this reason.
LNs patterns and speed change should also be considered.

Good Job!
I agree with this, that's reasonable opinion.
To combine each key, and then be reflected in overall pp system would make unfair rankings again.
Some people who should be praised truely in low-key mania will lose an opportunity.
Nice thread, Thank you. ;)
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
xxbidiao
Some harsh words, but after I checked the difficulty list, I'm not totally sure about the credibility of the list - It's even misleading in a few cases, especially in the top part, with overrate and underrate which even conflict with experience people stacked in the BMS/O2 community for years.
Some examples include Messier 333 vs Imperishable Night 2006 vs STAR OF AND... , Gigantic O.T.N vs Polygon vs Big Money vs Rhythmical Planet vs Akasha(ignore's ver) and more.
Though osu!mania is osu!mania and it's not necessary that we follow them at all (they have errors too), but they do provide good reference. (Edit: And this is also player feedback because they testplay-ed them for years.)

Since this list is not finalized, I suggest my original point - Let's make the diff calculation FUN and EASY TO USE.

I believe just like what you have done in TP, there are always weighted beatmaps, that most people think that's "overrated" or "underrated".
However, does that mean , when 20 players go here to say that a map is underrated, the map is truly underrated?
In many case, some parameters are just compromise of people who have discussed stuff here. Too many players, whether high ranked or not, are not possible, or don't want to discuss here (You know this is an English-only talk, and I know too many Chinese who can't participate in because they can't write in English well).

So what I suggest is: We should not focus on criticizing that "Oh a map is underrated I lose PP", but respect the fact that some maps are overrated, that they provide important fact that it's the superpower we should decided to promote (e.g. super quick jackhammer, nearly impossible sliders/ SV changes, etc) . To find these "weighted" maps is fun, isn't it? It's a pretty good idea to help with Tom to find that "What superpower has not been picked out"!

When I talked about "easy to use", I'm curious about the speed of the algorithm. Is it quick enough that it uses only a few seconds to calculate 30k maps? (I think dev had give up that once in the past when they want to improve SD)

Edit: some text arrangement.
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream
DT shouldn't count as extra pp if vision mods, HR, or RD don't give extra pp.

The end.
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka
A better play in DT with a slightly lower score is never considered when a slightly higher scored normal play exists since score isn't multiplied when using DT.

So... that is kind of a problem.
arcwinolivirus
1,592 posts
Joined October 2012
arcwinolivirus
Most mania players said in #osumania that DT has bug. So I tried to play a mania map song that I dont have records yet in DT mod.

finished playing DT and I got low score but gained 45 PP. Then I thought I can beat it without DT and Yes I beat it with higher score. Instead of getting higher PP, my PP reduced to 45 returning to my current PP I got before playing the map.
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream
In that case, DT SHOULD not give extra pp, and should be fixed if it's not supposed to.
Last edited by October Scream , edited 1 time in total.
Fudgy
47 posts
Joined December 2013
Fudgy
The issue here is that DT doesn't increase the score multiplier in mania and that the score is capped at 1 million. This means that even if you make a better score pp-wise with DT and do not beat your standard speed highscore, which is worth less pp, nothing will happen.

This gives an "unfair" advantage to those who didn't make a good standard speed score on a map and can play it with DT instead which gives more pp due to the increased difficulty of the map. Indeed, there are players who could make a decent score with the DT mod, but won't get anything out of it even if it is way harder than in normal speed because they already have a good standard score.

I see no way of solving this issue and keeping the score limit at 1 million at the same time unless it is possible to count only the best performance on a song instead of the best score. :|
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
xxbidiao
Like TP I believe the new PP consider a map DT'd a brand new one, and the extra PP is considered as you playing a new map (with higher difficulty).

However considering current parameter (score) using for PP calculation, I DO think giving DT more PP is not justice to high 300g ratio players...

just like what Fudgyking wrote, it's unfair to these players who struggle to get a higher standard speed score with even 1 less 300, and will eventually hurt the societycommunity by implying of "Playing hard maps, not to play a map accurately".
Last edited by xxbidiao , edited 1 time in total.
Agka
680 posts
Joined January 2009
Agka

Fudgyking wrote:

The issue here is that DT doesn't increase the score multiplier in mania and that the score is capped at 1 million. This means that even if you make a better score pp-wise with DT and do not beat your standard speed highscore, which is worth less pp, nothing will happen.

This gives an "unfair" advantage to those who didn't make a good standard speed score on a map and can play it with DT instead which gives more pp due to the increased difficulty of the map. Indeed, there are players who could make a decent score with the DT mod, but won't get anything out of it even if it is way harder than in normal speed because they already have a good standard score.

I see no way of solving this issue and keeping the score limit at 1 million at the same time unless it is possible to count only the best performance on a song instead of the best score. :|
This guy nailed it.
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
xxbidiao
Sorry for double posting, but I believe 50+ difficulty maps need more feedback.

As soon as I dig into 50+ diff maps (I have testplayed them for 3 hours), I found that it's just chaos. Difficulty numbers goes random, when a few 70s can be nearly the same hard as 60s or even 50s and a few 60s is hard to hell.

I know I'm a note-biased player (I can't play sliders-biased pattern well), so I believe others would have different thoughts. And most feedbacks I have seen is focused on 30 or even lower difficulty maps, maybe we can now check these overjoy maps?

(Though there are not many maps which have 50+ difficulty ranked (actually only 1), maybe we still need to work on this to prepare for these hard maps?)
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream
Also how are calculations working for auto converts now? I have a auto convert in my Best Performances list, but I think I've played better songs.
Natame-
243 posts
Joined September 2013
Natame-
How about HD/FL ?
Those mods needs considering too to be honest.
Since lots of people (including me) played mania specific maps and yet it just like the same as no mod plays.
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream
@Fafeluke

All vision mods aren't giving any extra pp at the moment. The only mod giving more pp than usual is DT.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Fafeluke wrote:

How about HD/FL ?
Those mods needs considering too to be honest.
On every single map I played with HD I had the same result as nomod; I don't play HD regularly and have not much experience with the mod but it feels like it makes no difference at all difficulty-wise.

Can't speak for FL since I don't play it but I know people who play FL often end up finding it easier than nomod.
Halogen-
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
574 posts
Joined September 2009
Halogen-

Aqo wrote:

Fafeluke wrote:

How about HD/FL ?
Those mods needs considering too to be honest.
On every single map I played with HD I had the same result as nomod; I don't play HD regularly and have not much experience with the mod but it feels like it makes no difference at all difficulty-wise.

Can't speak for FL since I don't play it but I know people who play FL often end up finding it easier than nomod.
This is a great point -- there are probably a number of players who actually use hidden to legitimately reduce the number of objects/notes on screen. Score shouldn't be increased under any hidden circumstance. Fade in produces a similar effect, just the opposite portion of the screen.

However, FL is a different exception -- the amount of space that you have to read guarantees that you will have to lower your scroll speed by a tremendous amount. At this point, you'd likely being reading something incredibly dense or memorizing the chart. Either way, for consistency's sake, it would be a better idea just to leave the multipliers both at 1.00x.
Xcrypt
264 posts
Joined July 2013
Xcrypt
About DT.
I personally have been pro ranking DT in the past, but here's a few reasons why I'm against it now.

As you know, there's the problem that we can't beat nomod scores with DT where the DT scores might have given better pp.
This is because only the highest scores are stored.
Apparently it's also not possible for the algorithm to consider the best DT plays if they are not the highest score, unless some big revamps are done that are probably not going to happen.

The best solution, is to treat DT as an entire different map with a different scoreboard.
An acceptible solution imo, is to consider the best DT plays not only the highest scores.

Both of which are probably not going to happen.

Suboptimal solutions:
- letting people delete their nomod scores so that they can make their highest score a DT play. This is currently not possible server-side.
- a constant score multiplier for DT. The reason this is suboptimal is because complex LN charts will only get a little bit harder, while maps that have already high bpm streams and/or jacks become nearly impossible.
- a non-constant score multiplier could work fine technically I think, but I don't think that's going to happen because of the coding work needed and the aesthetic scoreboard problems.

This is why I suggest unranking DT. I know that it's great for expert players to have a way to get the pp they deserve, but it might be better to wait until harder maps get ranked instead of suboptimal solutions.
Hidden message: rank harder maps.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Xcrypt wrote:

rank harder maps.
^





DT!mania
xxbidiao
450 posts
Joined November 2008
xxbidiao
I would still stick on "no bonus for DT" unless DT version of a map make another scoreboard someday.

Just like what Aqo said,















DT!mania
[TaikoTori]
147 posts
Joined September 2011
[TaikoTori]
Why exactly do we discuss DT usage right now? I feel like that is a point being very unimportant right now. What we should concentrate on is why certain converted maps give such an big amount of pp, and why certain mania-maps are considered easy while they are actually hard and vice versa.

The problem with the converted maps such as Extreme Fantasy might be the note density. I agree to an certain extend that yes, the note density on those maps are higher than on other maps, but note density does NOT equal difficulty.

Same thing with some of the mania-maps, especially Wintersun for example, that (in my opinion) should be placed a lot higher than it already is.
There are certain patterns that do not seem hard, but are really hard in reality due to how exactly they are placed. For example http://osu.ppy.sh/b/330588 [Eien] as a Longnote training map, is very, very easy in terms of noteplacement, but this only counts if you are good with Longnotes in the first place.

In my humble opinion, there are two options:

a) Calculate alot of patterns into your algorithm, and i mean -alot- because there are alot.
b) Have a Mania-Difficulty-Rating-Team, as that may an option as long as there arent alot of maps and they could still catch up.

Atleast thats how i see it.
Xenlon
25 posts
Joined January 2013
Xenlon

[TaikoTori] wrote:

Why exactly do we discuss DT usage right now? I feel like that is a point being very unimportant right now. What we should concentrate on is why certain converted maps give such an big amount of pp, and why certain mania-maps are considered easy while they are actually hard and vice versa.

The problem with the converted maps such as Extreme Fantasy might be the note density. I agree to an certain extend that yes, the note density on those maps are higher than on other maps, but note density does NOT equal difficulty.

Same thing with some of the mania-maps, especially Wintersun for example, that (in my opinion) should be placed a lot higher than it already is.
There are certain patterns that do not seem hard, but are really hard in reality due to how exactly they are placed. For example http://osu.ppy.sh/b/330588 [Eien] as a Longnote training map, is very, very easy in terms of noteplacement, but this only counts if you are good with Longnotes in the first place.

In my humble opinion, there are two options:

a) Calculate alot of patterns into your algorithm, and i mean -alot- because there are alot.
b) Have a Mania-Difficulty-Rating-Team, as that may an option as long as there arent alot of maps and they could still catch up.

Atleast thats how i see it.
I agree,this is a great idea and a rating team would be really nice IF they dont abuse it for themselfes

And I would make a 3rd option:
You can only get pp for mania-diffs and the converted maps are for fun/the song/or training or something different
Because I think it would be easier with just a few maps that nothing is "overrated" or "underrated".
[TaikoTori]
147 posts
Joined September 2011
[TaikoTori]

Xenlon wrote:

I agree,this is a great idea and a rating team would be really nice IF they dont abuse it for themselfes.
I think the community (-> us) would complain about certain ratings from said team if something seems way off.
That also includes the need of fair members of that team that actually listen to the community when arguing.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94
There won't be any rating team, due to the immense amount of time that'd be required to manage it, sorry. Give the algorithm chances, write which maps you think are rated wrong as some others already did.

I already have ideas on how to circumvent those high-density patterns from being weighted too much.
arcwinolivirus
1,592 posts
Joined October 2012
arcwinolivirus
I think fixing the DT bug will be a good start. DT is giving too much PP without score multiplier.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

arcwinolivirus wrote:

I think fixing the DT bug will be a good start. DT is giving too much PP without score multiplier.
It's not a bug. DT is considered as of now, that's intended behaviour. Whether that will change isn't clear yet.
arcwinolivirus
1,592 posts
Joined October 2012
arcwinolivirus

Tom94 wrote:

arcwinolivirus wrote:

I think fixing the DT bug will be a good start. DT is giving too much PP without score multiplier.
It's not a bug. DT is considered as of now, that's intended behaviour. Whether that will change isn't clear yet.
I see.. that conflicts in score system. I wonder what will change. If there's going to be an unranking score feature just to have DT score, that would be a problem in ranking scoreboard of the song (Mostly top 10 will be no mods and DTs are uhh.. ). If DT will be implemented by score multiplier, the whole mania ranking will change because scores are passing through the limit 1M. (meaning re-playing all the songs we just recorded back then and new sets of scoreboards of all songs).
-Blossom-
11 posts
Joined April 2013
-Blossom-
Can someone explain to me how did i improve my acc in 5/6 musics from 97% to 99%, and still my overall acc went from 99.28% to 99.11%?
This has anything to do with this new pp system?
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
DT shouldn't be counted since we have 1M limit of score, and we can easly get higher score without mods. And other way around if we have high score nomod play (wanted to top 50 for example) we can't beat it with DT and we get less pp than somebody who's doing worse than us with DT but didn't have a score before. And there's no point in going for top 50 anymore, just play with DT and get way more pp, it shouldn't be this way imo
milky228_old
39 posts
Joined February 2013
milky228_old
I would like to go back to a point I made a few weeks ago on this thread which was something along the lines of "Double Time sounds bad". At the end of the day Osu! is a game, in fact it's a rhythm game meaning it has a greater than average emphasis on music. One of the many reasons I play Mania is that I value how a game sounds, if a game sounds like **** I will not listen to it,just like I will not listen to DT regardless of how much it increases my rank.


Double Time is not the thing that bugged me the most about this patch though. Some of my "Best Performance" are from 5-6 months ago and I have absolutely no idea why; For a start these are all auto-converts which play absolutely nothing like mania maps do. Secondly I watched a reply of my "Best Performance" and the song was slow, long, boring but I only missed one note, which I can only assume is the reason it's up there. Finally, and the one that confuses me the most, the last time the PP system was broken this song was nowhere to be seen on my "Best Performance" .

I feel like I need to explain the cause of my anger here, because at the minute I just sound like someone who's butthurt at losing PP, which admittedly I am. I have improved on this game most days for the past 6 months to the point where I can score S ranks on a difficulty that I would not have even bothered to attempt and it feels like all that effort has been disregarded to the point where, aside from a few songs, I may as well have quit and played another game because it made absolutely no difference to my performance.
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream
This thread in a nutshell: ppv2 is crap.

DT should not be considered if it should give extra pp or not. It should already not be giving extra pp. The only way it could be remotely considered if it was to give extra pp when you're in the top 8 of a song. The only ones I've seen using DT are the top 10 O!M players, and their non DT scores are a hell of a lot better than there recent DT scores. It would have been best to stick with a broken ppv1 I would say since it didn't give any extra pp to players who used mods (But the star system is broke, which I will talk about in the next paragraph).

And on the topic of Auto Converts; why only count certain auto converts, and deny a team of O!M map judges? The method of suggesting which maps are giving too much pp for their difficulty from other players to you is almost the same as having a map judging team; the only difference is that it's the final opinion of one person instead of multiple people, which is far more accurate than one person or a broken star system.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

October Scream wrote:

This thread in a nutshell: ppv2 is crap.

DT should not be considered if it should give extra pp or not. It should already not be giving extra pp. The only way it could be remotely considered if it was to give extra pp when you're in the top 8 of a song. The only ones I've seen using DT are the top 10 O!M players, and their non DT scores are a hell of a lot better than there recent DT scores. It would have been best to stick with a broken ppv1 I would say since it didn't give any extra pp to players who used mods (But the star system is broke, which I will talk about in the next paragraph).
I'm seeing very subjective stuff here. Many people I've talked to speak differently about their DT scores. Don't expect everyone to have the same opinion as you, a ranking system is supposed to please as many as possible.


October Scream wrote:

And on the topic of Auto Converts; why only count certain auto converts, and deny a team of O!M map judges? The method of suggesting which maps are giving too much pp for their difficulty from other players to you is almost the same as having a map judging team; the only difference is that it's the final opinion of one person instead of multiple people, which is far more accurate than one person or a broken star system.
The difference is, that an algorithm decides the difficulty of maps. I'm not sitting here giving maps difficulty values by hand. Everything is done automatically, which ensures, that every map gets the exact same treatment. Having people determine the difficulty would automatically introduce bias. And a huge mess of management effort which isn't needed if an algorithm takes care of it. Not even speaking of the days if not weeks / months it'd take a team to work through every single ranked map and consent on a suitable difficulty.
Drace_old_1
314 posts
Joined April 2011
Drace_old_1
Tom, looking over the list again, it will be impossible to make an even semi-accurate algorithm with only strain values. Its like judging a sport's team on only their muscle mass... You're gonna have to set up a pattern library and put maps against it for any hope of this being successful.

Also a difficulty rating team won't be hard to run and manage at all. The only thing is it might be slightly challenging to get it started. It'd just be an extra step between bubble and rank, it will more accurate than any algorith, and a number of members will make it not biased. There's also no reason for this to take months haha
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Drace wrote:

Tom, looking over the list again, it will be impossible to make an even semi-accurate algorithm with only strain values. Its like judging a sport's team on only their muscle mass...
Not true. Strains are not density. This is not "one" algorithm concept, more like a medium that represents how things get harder with time. It applies to any hard pattern, that if it constantly is of about the same difficulty, then it gets harder the longer it is. That's what strain values capture.

The algorithm has issues identifying which patterns are hard, that's true, and as I said I have several ideas (some from suggestions by Aqo) which will probably improve this.


Drace wrote:

You're gonna have to set up a pattern library and put maps against it for any hope of this being successful.
I'm pretty sure there are some general rules that define which things make patterns hard, or at least approximate that well enough. The trick is to find that those rules.
Of course nothing stops you or anyone from providing a list of easy and hard patterns. That'd help immensely, and originally I had hoped for more of that kind of feedback. ^^'


Drace wrote:

Also a difficulty rating team won't be hard to run and manage at all. The only thing is it might be slightly challenging to get it started.
Nothing stops anyone from getting it going. I for sure am not suitable for that job. I'm a horrible manager and know little about mania. And on top of that I don't have much time at my disposal. What I am good at, or at least think I am, is doing the algorithm stuff.
Do you know how I got in here? By making tp, a working system. If you, or anyone else manages to make a system, that's superior, then I am sure it'll get used. :P


Keep in mind, that I only have time for osu! as a part-time-job and have to also manage the other gamemodes. On top of that I was mostly busy building the pp infrastructure for this. I've spent maybe 10 hours tweaking this algorithm with barely any community feedback since I didn't have anything public to show. Give it some time and it won't be as bad, I can assure you that. From now on I'll have more time actually tweaking the algorithms.
Drace_old_1
314 posts
Joined April 2011
Drace_old_1
It still seems like too much of a single-dimension approach in my opinion. There's many instances of maps with insanely lower density, which won't build up the strain values, that are much harder than high density because of how awkward the correlations between the patterns are with each other. In many cases maps show to be more of a confusing layout to play rather than a physical challenge.

I actually believe the physical side to difficulty to be a little less relevant since in most cases when a player reaches the reading skill required to play high speed maps that would require good stamina, he would of also have indirectly trained the physical abilities to do so.

I don't believe it's possible to algorithmically solve for a strain or difficulty value of patterns when even pro players encounter pattern that to their disbelief is much harder than they thought it'd be. Especially when, no offense, yourself and a big chunk and or your help and feedback (including myself) are players not experienced enough to accurately depict the exact dimensions of what makes a map more difficult than others. It also doesn't help that concept itself is a mostly abstract one either.

A good example of this is how the very same map can become much harder or much easier just by switching the lanes around, aka using random. I'm not joking when I say that some instances of random can have ridiculous effects on a song's difficulty. Yet both maps will the same per-lane strains, the same density, the same length and the same speed.
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