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posted

jaibo wrote:

I agree that it should be something like
approved > insane > hard
Completely disagree with this. A map being approved doesn't necessarily mean it's harder than an Insane diff. The way tp works (calculating the difficulty of each map) should be ok.
posted

eldnl wrote:

About mods:

- Playing DT on AR9+ maps. example: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=66853&m=2 - https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=48416&m=2
- Playing HR on AR8+ maps. example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/291996?m=2 - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/151017?m=2
- Playing HD on AR7- maps (but the map has to be a hard difficulty). https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=51308&m=2 - https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=101727&m=2
- Playing FL on AR9+ maps. https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=86324&m=2

That's the harder stuff about mods.
About the normal difficulty of a map, you have to consider the x distance of the notes, including sliders, because the y distance doesn't matter at all.
The note density doesn't matter that much, everything is about the jumps, a fast bpm song without jumps will be easy, a slow bpm song with a lot of jump will be hard.
The stream jumps can be considered has something really hard.

If anyone can add something that would be great.
Adding on to what eldnl said, I put some maps together that are hard with no mod according to AR (Feel free to elaborate on these):

I realized that I have missed maps that are hard but these are just some that I can quickly think off the top of my head so please bear with that.

AR8 - Kirby Mix difficulties, Non stop road [hich's Rain], Emerald Sword [Extreme], The Beginning [AngelHoney], WAWAWA SPEED mix [Marathon], Wing my way [Hell-jumping]

AR9 - With a Dance Number [0108 style], No39 [0108 style], Talent Shredder [0108], Six Trillion [0108], FREEDMAN [Freedom, Iyasine, Nouk], Skystar difficulties except for Artcore Jinja, Homework Crisis [Let's Jump!!] (HD Bonus suggested for this one) , MISTAKE [Ms.0108, Chewu], I [Another], Intersect Thunderbolt [Thunderbolt], Rubik's Cube [Cube], COSMOS [Cosmos], Dragons [Insane] (HD bonus suggested with this one)

AR10 - Image Material [Scorpiour], The Creator [Nyaten], Kyouki Chinden [Madness Precipitation], Rog-unlimitation [AngelHoney], I [Terror]
posted

TenguKing9 wrote:

AR10 - Image Material [Scorpiour], The Creator [Nyaten], Kyouki Chinden [Madness Precipitation], Rog-unlimitation [AngelHoney], I [Terror]
you forgot Blue Dragon's
posted

TenguKing9 wrote:

Playing AR9 or AR10 with DT is incredibly difficult since it's faster than AR10 at this point. I do agree with you that HR with AR10 is harder than playing it with HD, but the point is that AR9 with DT is much harder than AR9 with HR because it is AR10.3 and you have less time to react.
Er. I read HD, not DT the first time, I swear.

OT: FLHD should be worth more. (does anyone even play that?)
posted
Remove performance points.
posted
some personal opinions o.o

Just like the tp system, I think the ability of playing CtB can be divided into different aspects and can't be treated like "this map is definitely harder than that map"

imo,there are 3 aspects:

1.the ability of reaction. This is based mostly on AR. a good example is many people can't FC AR10(or AR8+HR) maps

2.the ability of moving smoothly. A such example is that it's very hard to get SS when CS is high. one may always miss droplets here and there.The other situtation is when play with DT mod,it's harder to get SS since the movement of plate is accelerated too.

3.the ability of "jumping" correctly. A such example is this map. you can watch the reps as some continous left-right jumps.

There are also some auto-converts created strange arrange of friuts. But under most situation it can be treated as combing ability 2 and 3.

HD can't be treated as a normal mod in CtB, there are a lot of people who can't play even a little HD as well as people who can't play without HD when AR is high. But low AR HD should always consider a hard mod, imo.

Will add more if I think of them. :D
posted
I suggest the user panel display 2 ranks : the total score rank and the pp rank
whatever pp‘s algorithm adust, not everyone is satisified.
According to peppy's thought, pp should reflect the player's skill. I come up with an idea of this: the Arena mode. Only mp can reflect the player's truly skill, so, in the arena mode, there are two teams, 8 players can go the match, the winner team add the pp, the loser lost pp,a bit like laddar mode in dota. the postion is random accorriding to pp .
Just a simple idea for refference
posted
Gonna try and share some of my thoughts on this by expanding upon others ideas, personally I wouldn't mind seeing pp gone completely, but if we're going to have it hopefully we can get it right this time.

Sabi wrote:

3:why are droplets worth 10 points.. lol? we only get these droplets to get that SS Bonus for the PP.. so please fix that <3
CtB has always had droplets as being 10 points (at least as long as I've been around) and changing this now would cause problems more than likely.

Sabi wrote:

4: another thing is spinner maps, in ctb there are pp maps called no spinner maps such as (Maware - Popner's Hard) https://osu.ppy.sh/s/122658 Which gave over 40-50 PP If you SS'd it with HR/HD because you would tie for 3rd/4th place and give alot of pp, but if you even miss 1 droplet you would lose all that pp gain
This doesn't really need to be addressed as ppv2 doesn't care about your rank, it cares about your accuracy/mods more, though I do think on maps with spinners it should reward you a bit more for spinning well.

bomber34 wrote:

HD should not be weighted that much ... or more or less like
- the lower the AR the more HD weights
on high AR you can ignore HD really
HD should ALWAYS give more than no mod imo, as no map is ever actually easier, on AR<7 it is hard for most people but those maps shouldn't matter for the most part except for when they have small CS or when adding HR creates a lot of tough jumps that were easy beforehand (example: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/290744&m=2 Not that challenging no mod but when you add HR very few people can FC even though the AR is low). And when it comes to hard maps, the harder end of the AR8 maps become extremely difficult to do with HD (example: http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=240107&m=2 no one has even FC'd with HD yet) and on hard AR9 maps HD always makes them more challenging, hard jumps will always become much harder when using HD, even if the player is better at using HD than no mod, such as myself. The best solution would be to have HD weigh more heavily on maps that are especially hard with HD when compared to no mod, and weigh less (but still slightly more than no mod) on easier maps.

eldnl wrote:

The note density doesn't matter that much, everything is about the jumps, a fast bpm song without jumps will be easy, a slow bpm song with a lot of jump will be hard.
Most of what you said was pretty good, though note density can matter with jumps, especially on a map like https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=129285&m=2 , the notes are so close together that they become very hard to hit on ctb even with no mod, so when calculating difficulty, maybe consider not just how close jumps are horizontally, but maybe how close they are on the timeline as well as how often the jumps are close enough to be hard to hit.

TenguKing9 wrote:

1. As DeathXHunter said before, SS should have less weight in the formula since it's easier to SS in Catch The Beat compared to other modes.
This is somewhat good, but we have to make sure that an SS isn't given too little weight, as sometimes hitting those droplets can take a lot of work and deserve a reward, and maybe we should base the pp bonus an SS will give based on how hard it is to SS compared to getting an FC (maybe by the % of FC's that are also an SS?) Basically an SS should still always give more, but just not to the ridiculous extent as it does currently.

TenguKing9 wrote:

2. Since FL is heavily based on memorization rather than actual skill it should be weighed a bit less than no mod plays.
FL should always be weighted heavier than no mod, but it should be weighted accordingly to how difficult the jumps are in a map, as slow maps with very few jumps are pretty easy to do with FL, while taking the time to FC something somewhat hard should give you a reward (hopefully not to a huge extent though)

TenguKing9 wrote:

3. DT should have more weight overall since players can DT AR8 maps that are difficult and get little to no reward for it in the previous system. The higher the AR the more weight it should have since it doesn't cap at AR10 like HR does.
Again this needs to be based on how hard the map will be with those mods, as on most maps, DT is still easier, while on AR8+ some maps become hard to simply pass with DT, so the weighting should be on a per map basis as explained for Hd and FL

TenguKing9 wrote:

5. AR10 maps should have a lot of weight since not many players in CTB can read AR10 and the maps with it are really difficult.
I do believe AR10 should have more weight than currently probably but we should avoid making it too big as some players (such as myself) just simply don't have the ability to do AR10 without memorizing the entire map, I kinda wish AR10 was made somewhat slower for ctb and other AR's were adjusted accordingly to be more fair as you're limited by the catcher speed as WELL as reaction time, while every other mode relies purely on your reaction time, but this isn't the place for a discussion on that.

TenguKing9 wrote:

8. There are maps that are considered easier to do on CTB than on standard example being Freedom Dive that shouldn't be weighed as heavily on ctb due to it being mostly streams.
I agree with this but Freedom Dive is a horrible example since it's still very hard for people to FC even with being much easier than on standard. a map like MENDES (https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=75831&m=2) would probably do much better as an example as it's hard for the average standard player to combo yet on ctb you need HD+DT just to get top 50, which is very uncommon for any AR8 map on ctb.

TenguKing9 wrote:

9. There are auto-converts that are harder than some ctb specifics that should weigh more in this case. CTB Specifics shouldn't outweigh every map just because it's a specific.
This very true, there are several maps that are harder than most specifics, I don't need to list examples as any ctb player knows this. Though if a converted map's difficulty is calculated to around the same as a specific, I believe the specific should give a little more as it was made for ctb specifically.

Rorona wrote:

OT: FLHD should be worth more. (does anyone even play that?)
I don't like the idea of HD+FL giving a large bonus on ctb as most maps that have more than 300-400 combo are impossible to do without total memorization, and while memorization is considered a skill something like HD+FL shouldn't be able to end up giving people a large amount of pp that they don't deserve. A bonus is fine, but please nothing too large.


Also please make it so Cups and Salads stop giving gigantic amounts of pp, sure they're ctb maps that will usually be hard with mods but they're still not hard enough to give the amount they do currently.
posted

Zak wrote:

bomber34 wrote:

HD should not be weighted that much ... or more or less like
- the lower the AR the more HD weights
on high AR you can ignore HD really
HD should ALWAYS give more than no mod imo, as no map is ever actually easier, on AR<7 it is hard for most people but those maps shouldn't matter for the most part except for when they have small CS or when adding HR creates a lot of tough jumps that were easy beforehand (example: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/290744&m=2 Not that challenging no mod but when you add HR very few people can FC even though the AR is low). And when it comes to hard maps, the harder end of the AR8 maps become extremely difficult to do with HD (example: http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=240107&m=2 no one has even FC'd with HD yet) and on hard AR9 maps HD always makes them more challenging, hard jumps will always become much harder when using HD, even if the player is better at using HD than no mod, such as myself. The best solution would be to have HD weigh more heavily on maps that are especially hard with HD when compared to no mod, and weigh less (but still slightly more than no mod) on easier maps.
well my " high AR you can ignore HD really" part was forumalted badly ...
I never said/meant that HD should give less points than nomod
I still say the lower the AR the harder is HD
and from my personal experience it doesn't matter for me playing HD on AR8 - 9 if we ignore weird shaped sliders when it comes to Acc.
on AR8 or 9 the point where I look at the dropping frutis is above the point where they become invisible, so I can see the next fruits already. I don't think I am the only one doing it that way but there are sure people who have a different fixed view point for catching
That does not mean that every AR8 - 9 map is as easy to play with HD.
Yeah there might be exceptions but I talk about a very general spread of maps we have in terms of so called "difficulty"

overall there should be a way to calculate how difficult a map becomes with HD but I am not the one who can think of a way for that
posted
I was simply explaining my views while taking into consideration that some people have a lot of trouble playing HD even if they're pretty good no mod, I would say though that the harder a map is to FC/SS the harder it will be with HD added as a result.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
posted

Zak wrote:

I was simply explaining my views while taking into consideration that some people have a lot of trouble playing HD even if they're pretty good no mod, I would say though that the harder a map is to FC/SS the harder it will be with HD added as a result.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Well, I can't play HD at all, even though I was like rank 900, because I look right above Ryuuta to play, or at least a little above him.

But what bomber said was right, HD should still count more than an SS even though an SSH might be easier for some people to do on AR9+ maps.
posted

Zak wrote:

I was simply explaining my views while taking into consideration that some people have a lot of trouble playing HD even if they're pretty good no mod, I would say though that the harder a map is to FC/SS the harder it will be with HD added as a result.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
you mean like This ? :^)

Yes, some maps are even harder with HD (even with AR9, 0108 again here it comes).

Also.....add something again ? damn i want my #49 back lol
posted
I use my poor english

Difficulty comes from 'from left to right and how fast it is'

Just like https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=142954&m=2
It is very hard.
jump, jump and jump; and fast

and this https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=64267&m=2
this is almost impossible for most players
somewhere, notes gos far and fast

Also, AR9 is much easier than AR10
Even DT is easier than HR (though I cannot pass AR9+DT :P)

Some jumps without hi-dash(red fruits):
there is a note A and a note B
1. you must dash to catch B immediately after you get A
2. you can wait for a little momment to catch B after you get A

Obviously, 1 is harder than 2 ---- it is the limit to make 'red fruits' NOT appear
posted
o/
posted

[Super Shock] wrote:

The only thing I what please is too Fix the top Rangs on Profile
AHAHAHAHA
posted

[Super Shock] wrote:

The only thing I what please is too Fix the top Rangs on Profile
Just get the hell out of this thread, thanks.
posted
o/
posted
I don't see what is the issue with PP and Ranking, In every game there always is a Ranking System to motivate yourself to get better, and believe me the only reason why i got pp/rank in the first place was to prove myself good, rank 180 looks alot better than rank 1000 in my eyes, and it helps to let people know what is your skill set and what's your overall progression, if you remove ranking you will most likely remove OWC and CTB WC, there will be no point, and yes in this game there always is Competitiveness no matter how you look at it, theres a REASON why it says "#1" In Multi



EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_game Also quote directly from here

"The players might be independent opponents, formed into teams or be just a single team pitted against the game."

^OPPONENTS "someone who competes against or fights another in a contest, game, or argument; a rival or adversary." So please stop
posted

[Super Shock] wrote:

I know that my english is bad so I have something misspelled

P. S. I work with googel OK <. <
pow haha googel

---------------------------------------------------------

Ok, let's come back to the thread.

I think the pp system should experience a big revolution, and maybe re-weight the items like adding some mods, accuracy, etc.

I would suggest some other things about the pp system in order to improve this system.

1. Some map items (AR, CS, HP, OD...)
These items can weight more in my opinion. Most of the maps should depends on these items.

For example:
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=131891&m=2 The Big Black is one of the hardest CTB maps at the moment as most of the CTB players said. AR10 is the highest AR without mods, so AR10 would weight more pp than AR1-9. Therefore, the pp would depend on the AR, HP, OD, CS according to its map diff.

2. Mods
The mods also take part in the pp system, but I think some of the mods should tweek a bit. Let me list some of the mods first.

HardRock (HR) - This mod should weight the most arranging to the other mods like Flashlight, Hidden etc. Since the pattern of the fruit changes if you use HardRock on a map regardless of the difficulty. Also, the AR changes if you use HardRock, like an AR7 map if you use HardRock, it changes to a higher AR amount.

DoubleTime (DT) - This mod should weight second highest (the first highest is HR). The AR won't change if you use it, but it indeed changes the pace/BPM of a song, and also the movement speed of the ryuuta (the catcher). While using DT, you would got a littler reaction time to the fruit, since it falls much faster than without DT.

Hidden (HD) - This mod should weight third highest then. Though the AR/pace/BPM didn't really changed, HD tests your imagination of the falling fruits. It is quite hard for some of the players to figure the fruit falling place and the time where it reaches the ryuuta.

None/No-Mod - Fourth mod to weight pp in my opinion. Using None/No-Mod requires strong reaction since you may be nervous when you are catching them (like some AR10s). However, you can still see the movement speed of the fruit, letting you to react better comparing to the other mods.

FlashLight (FL) - In my opinion this would be the mod that gives the least pp. FL tests player's memorization, which is just acting the same thing as No-Mod does, but with some black areas around the ryuuta. I think using FL just only need memorization, which should not worth that many pp.

Controversial point
I know after you watch the above suggestions (Mods), you will immediately think of a question: 'what if da player are skillful to nomod but not hd/skillful to hd but not nomod?'
So the following items can answer your question.

There would also be like a function that can see if you rely on which mod mostly. For example, a player prefers HD to No-Mod, like 4500 are HD plays, and 100 plays are No-Mod. In this scenario, the No-Mod should weight more pp than HD then since he isn't good at No-Mod (or not preferring to it). This can encourage him/her to use the No-Mod.

This thing can also applicate on other stuff like HardRock/FlashLight etc.

3. Accuracy
The accuracy also plays a big role on pp system. As some of you point out that https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=316622&m=2, the player using HDHR got a SS on this map got a lot of pp according to the old pp system (ppv1). I think accuracy can be improved so that the accuracy would not be relied that much.

This accuracy item can pair up with the CS (A.K.A Circle Size). Smaller CS represents that a smaller chance to SS the map. Take a look at https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=6097&m=2. Most of the players got a S or lower like A,B,C... It is because of its small circle size that makes people hard to concentrate on getting those droplets. At this point, accuracy can really tests a player's concentration on those droplets.

4. Misc.
I wanna point out some of the items that SHOULD NOT be weighted with pp (or maybe just a little).

1) Score
The score should not be weighted with pp, otherwise all marathon maps will become pp farming maps.

2) Map star rating
The star rating in each maps also aren't accurate enough, so it shouldn't be weighted with pp unless the star rating algorithm is changed. A good example that is: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/292911, when you SS this map with HDHR and get a high spin, you get a bunch of pp (according to the old pp system). This difficulty was rated as Insane diff, but somehow, this map is just an easy difficulty comparing to the other difficulties in this mapset.


Thank you for reading my post.

Please voice your opinion below. If you don't really understand what I said (or just maybe my suck English cuz im an alien ya kno'), maybe you can say it out.
posted

Sabi wrote:

I don't see what is the issue with PP and Ranking, In every game there always is a Ranking System to motivate yourself to get better, and believe me the only reason why i got pp/rank in the first place was to prove myself good, rank 180 looks alot better than rank 1000 in my eyes, and it helps to let people know what is your skill set and what's your overall progression, if you remove ranking you will most likely remove OWC and CTB WC, there will be no point, and yes in this game there always is Competitiveness no matter how you look at it, theres a REASON why it says "#1" In Multi



EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_game Also quote directly from here

"The players might be independent opponents, formed into teams or be just a single team pitted against the game."

^OPPONENTS "someone who competes against or fights another in a contest, game, or argument; a rival or adversary." So please stop
Who said pp was gonna be remove ..
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