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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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DroidBass

uberpancake wrote:

I'd like to mention that best friendS long ver is exaxtly what you described in the last sentence. It's a map with 3 ( or was it 4?) Difficulty spikes and a much easier map for the rest of the song. Also maps with spikes tend to be farm maps though. 7 - seven, remote control, jojo, best friendS etc...
Would like to clarify that the shorter the spikes are, the more farmable is. I find that some maps with their peaks are rightly judged likely hvick225 Sagara Kokoro - Hoshizora no Ima [S.S] because the peak stands enough time to require constancy on skill and not about pure luck on a random play ... meanwhile I find FLOWxGRANRODEO - 7 -seven- -TV SIZE - a way too overrated because the peaks stands too low time and seems very tryhardable and sucess ratio seems to be too high for a 500 pp play map.

About remote control... well... it's a weird case of OD10.33 DT play. If OD10 is too strong at really high values of accuracy then OD10.33 should be even stronger. I don't find that map broken on pp at all because the spacing that it has on its peaks is enough to make it not a mere "free accuracy map" likely we see on many other DT maps, but because it has 3-4 pikes of too low length seems that if you're somehow lucky you can obtain good pp from a good random play even at not being consistent on all the plays.

Resuming...
peaks of difficulty = tryhardable
Retrying for a lucky rank = worth on pp
^ this can be aplied at both cases FC or high accuracy.
The more peaks the less tryhardable/farmable is
Tysonzero
My only (admittedly pretty big) qualm with the difficulty system right now is that IMO it should NEVER be possible for replacing your score to DECREASE your PP.

I understand why this is currently the case (only one score can be scored, and it prioritizes score over PP value understandably), but it should not be that hard to adjust the unique constraint from (player, map) to something like (player, map, pp_score) where pp_score is a boolean/tinyint that is true if the score has a lower score but higher pp value than your previous best.

Either that or find some way to merge score and PP together by adjusting the PP system or by adjusting the score system, or some combination of both.
Mahogany

Tysonzero wrote:

My only (admittedly pretty big) qualm with the difficulty system right now is that IMO it should NEVER be possible for replacing your score to DECREASE your PP.
Don't worry man, I heard this is going to be fixed in some big update down the line.
E m i

Tysonzero wrote:

My only (admittedly pretty big) qualm with the difficulty system right now is that IMO it should NEVER be possible for replacing your score to DECREASE your PP.
soon™
Yuudachi-kun
Tom's not going to do that, he's only going to make it so you can't get a higher score with a different mod combo overwrite higher pp plays.
jesse1412

Khelly wrote:

Tom's not going to do that, he's only going to make it so you can't get a higher score with a different mod combo overwrite higher pp plays.
Pretty sure he's gonna do both? You're gonna be able to submit a hr score and dt score to the same map but that's separate from the plan to remove pp reducing score submission.
Yuudachi-kun

jesus1412 wrote:

Khelly wrote:

Tom's not going to do that, he's only going to make it so you can't get a higher score with a different mod combo overwrite higher pp plays.
Pretty sure he's gonna do both? You're gonna be able to submit a hr score and dt score to the same map but that's separate from the plan to remove pp reducing score submission.
I think I asked him on his ask fm a few months ago and he said something about not doing both because only keeping the highest pp score requires more storage of scores or something.
silmarilen
actually he said only keeping the highest pp score wont happen because if something changes about pp it might not be the highest pp score anymore.
Vuelo Eluko

silmarilen wrote:

actually he said only keeping the highest pp score wont happen because if something changes about pp it might not be the highest pp score anymore.
that would be a much rarer scenario than losing pp, which is an everyday thing to some people and something most people always take into consideration before playing a map with different mods, but it doesn't have to be..
silmarilen
i agree with that actually. i also agree with that highest pp should be saved and not highest score, but those are tom's words.
[Lucky]
I think the mod 'Spun Out' should only cost you pp when the map actually has a spinner. :o
Endaris

[Lucky] wrote:

I think the mod 'Spun Out' should only cost you pp when the map actually has a spinner. :o
I think being an idiot should legitimately cost you pp.
DroidBass

Endaris wrote:

[Lucky] wrote:

I think the mod 'Spun Out' should only cost you pp when the map actually has a spinner. :o
I think being an idiot should legitimately cost you pp.
I don't think he was an idiot, SO is worth as 95% pp but only uses half of score, meaning you can improve it easly later on when playing better.
Yuudachi-kun
It's as dumb as saying NF should only cost you pp if you fail the map.
otoed1

Khelly wrote:

It's as dumb as saying NF should only cost you pp if you fail the map.
More importantly, why does anyone care about pp if they're using nofail? Or Spun out? Using those mods is like saying hey, this map is too hard for me to play well. If you can't play it well then why are you worried about pp. There is no way in hell it will be better than your top plays.
Vuelo Eluko

otoed1 wrote:

There is no way in hell it will be better than your top plays.
depends heavily on the player..
jesse1412

otoed1 wrote:

Khelly wrote:

It's as dumb as saying NF should only cost you pp if you fail the map.
If you can't play it well then why are you worried about pp. There is no way in hell it will be better than your top plays.
My top ranks would like a word.
Yuudachi-kun
I thought you were Riince, stop it.

Your 97% key to my heart is nice though. Fuck the ending.
otoed1

jesus1412 wrote:

My top ranks would like a word.
Nah, they don't want to talk they're too ashamed of their acc and too proud of the rest of their phat skillz. Srsly tho, how do you get as good as you with such bad acc?
-Makishima S-
how do you get as good as you with such bad acc?
I might assume that actual "throw stream here, throw stream there" fast/superfast bpm stream everywhere maps (it's can be called a meta already since more and more what i see - map without stream doesn't exist) and not everyone have consistency to play this.

Jesus is still godlike player so sush :3
Purple

otoed1 wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

My top ranks would like a word.
Nah, they don't want to talk they're too ashamed of their acc and too proud of the rest of their phat skillz. Srsly tho, how do you get as good as you with such bad acc?
Nobody becomes good without good accuracy

When you're trying to FC a map full of 280 BPM deathstreams, it's easy to give absolutely 0 fucks about accuracy. Kind of like Cookiezi's first score on remote control which was 92% or so.
Yuudachi-kun

Purple wrote:

Nobody becomes good without good accuracy
How so?

https://osu.ppy.sh/u/606544
Reyvateil

Khelly wrote:

Purple wrote:

Nobody becomes good without good accuracy
How so?

https://osu.ppy.sh/u/606544
His accuracy is good, just not the best at these extremely fast maps. A 98.98% Muteki no Soldier or his 91.91% at FREEDMAN plays aren't something to laugh at.
Deva
So when a normal player gets 92% then its a shitpass with shitty accuracy but when a pro gets 92% then thats good accuracy? Please make up your mind.
Yuudachi-kun

Mikakage wrote:

His accuracy is good, just not the best at these extremely fast maps. A 98.98% Muteki no Soldier or his 91.91% at FREEDMAN plays aren't something to laugh at.
Perhaps he's like me and gets gud accuracy on things that are relatively easier and then just gets 92-95% fcs on the harder things because we're not that great at acc in actuality?
silmarilen

Mikakage wrote:

Khelly wrote:

How so?

https://osu.ppy.sh/u/606544
His accuracy is good, just not the best at these extremely fast maps. A 98.98% Muteki no Soldier or his 91.91% at FREEDMAN plays aren't something to laugh at.
for someone of his skill level,that accuracy on muteki is shit. i got fewer 100s back in 2013
Vuelo Eluko

HK_ wrote:

So when a normal player gets 92% then its a shitpass with shitty accuracy but when a pro gets 92% then thats good accuracy? Please make up your mind.
only when its something noone else can fc with high acc

/e



or a lot of jesse's top ranks
-Kanzaki
I suggest that the star difficulty cannot understand these kind of sliders so make it understand them :
screenshots
,



selected circle is 3

Here is my map as an example : Flux Pavillion - I Can't Stop - 01:18:813 (1,2,3) - thats the objects in the screenshots.

So it is 4.22 star but i named it extra because i used some big spaces on these kind of sliders. Just testplay it and think about it "Is it really 4.22 star map or its acctualy harder?"

Here is an good example check the star difficulty of lan's extra and play it do you still think it is 4.93 stars? : https://osu.ppy.sh/b/319661&m=0
Endaris
Yeah, but that's kind of obvious cause stardiff measures how easy it is to SS.
As sliders have a huge timewindow to get a 300 on(250ms window on OD7.2), large jumps to sliders aren't worth as much cause it will think you have more time to jump, like 100ms more than for a jump to a circle.
GhostFrog
Yes, we know the star difficulty algorithm messes up sliders. In a lot of maps you can replace sliders with circles located at their heads and have the star rating increase which makes 0 sense. Above post is wrong though afaik - if you change the OD on a map, its star difficulty doesn't change at all. Algorithm just treats sliders badly.

iirc it approximates the minimum distance you can use to complete the slider and considers it to all be part of the next jump or something like that

which is all sorts of bad if true

but don't trust me on it being true because i'm not sure if it is
Endaris

GhostFrog wrote:

if you change the OD on a map, its star difficulty doesn't change at all.
Maybe because the increase in time you get is proportional to the increase you get of a circle?
Cause if it's proportional it can be measured by length and point of time without looking into OD while still giving sliders a disadvantage in rating.
GhostFrog

Endaris wrote:

GhostFrog wrote:

if you change the OD on a map, its star difficulty doesn't change at all.
Maybe because the increase in time you get is proportional to the increase you get of a circle?
Cause if it's proportional it can be measured by length and point of time without looking into OD while still giving sliders a disadvantage in rating.
Huh? If sliders were really underrated because of what you said, the difficulty of a map should go up when you increase OD. Difficulty algorithm just assume you're hitting everything at exactly the correct time.
Endaris
idk, I thought star rating was a measurement of how hard it is to SS a map.
I couldn't find an actual definition of what it does precisely.
UltraRik
This thread is WAY to long for me to read trough everything, so I will just straight forward ask my question.

Is there a way to check pp value of a particular play?
I would love it if we could see every score's pp value, or at least demand
to see the value of a particular play for a score that does not appear in the Top Ranks
on my profile page..
Yuudachi-kun

UltraRik wrote:

This thread is WAY to long for me to read trough everything, so I will just straight forward ask my question.

Is there a way to check pp value of a particular play?
I would love it if we could see every score's pp value, or at least demand
to see the value of a particular play for a score that does not appear in the Top Ranks
on my profile page..
If it's not on your profile page then no, you can't. Tillerino CAN give you an estimate for an fc.
Mahogany
Yeah, only if it's an FC, and then use !acc and input the acc you or they got. I don't know of any way to check for pp worth of non FC scores.
UltraRik

Khelly wrote:

If it's not on your profile page then no, you can't. Tillerino CAN give you an estimate for an fc.
WOW that was a quick reply, thanks!

That's really sad, I wish peppy would implement a way for us to do that.. because I'm not sure
if tryharding with certain mods will be worth anything or a waste of time lol.

ALSO I strongly feel that DT scores are blown out of proportions in the pp system,
DT needs nerfing in terms of pp value. Farming DT is way too easy imo
Yuudachi-kun
If you're playing hards with DT, you're doing it wrong.
jesse1412

UltraRik wrote:

Khelly wrote:

If it's not on your profile page then no, you can't. Tillerino CAN give you an estimate for an fc.
WOW that was a quick reply, thanks!

That's really sad, I wish peppy would implement a way for us to do that.. because I'm not sure
if tryharding with certain mods will be worth anything or a waste of time lol.

ALSO I strongly feel that DT scores are blown out of proportions in the pp system,
DT needs nerfing in terms of pp value. Farming DT is way too easy imo
DT is by far the most commonly underrated mod in the game at a high level. I don't think it needs more nerfs right now. It's worth noting that you have almost no DT scores in your top performance, how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT. I think you should experiment more with mods and then come back to report.
UltraRik

jesus1412 wrote:

DT is by far the most commonly underrated mod in the game at a high level. I don't think it needs more nerfs right now. It's worth noting that you have almost no DT scores in your top performance, how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT. I think you should experiment more with mods and then come back to report.
Yeah, no, I never play DT since my FPS makes AR higher than 10 basically invisible.
But I have a lot of friends who say that DT is easy to do, also A LOT of people have
DT / HDDT scores for their Top Ranks.
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