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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
After 50 pages people still haven't been able to understand:

1- You can't lose pp. If you happen to lose pp it's because there is some update going on or you beat one of your scores with another one that's worth less pp than your old one (dunno if this has been fixed yet, make ranks based on pp earned pls like osu!tp, ranked score is crap).

2- Rank does not mean pp, it's not the same to lose some ranks that to lose pp.

3- A map is not hard because you think it's hard, most osu! players can't even clear hard maps, like it or not the system needs to set up a standard, even if that means to hurt you because it constantly reminds you that you suck. If you are good you should be able, if interested, to climb through the ranks.

Just be patient, don't try to rush things, focus on getting better, that's the best way to get to a higher position, unless you are willing to really try hard.

4- You don't need to know how the system works to get better ranks, you need to play better, no way around it.
Sal32
122 posts
Joined October 2013
Sal32

Wishy wrote:

You don't need to know how the system works to get better ranks, you need to play better, no way around it.
Totally agree
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog

NixXSkate wrote:

Only 2 people could SS it despite its popularity for a reason.
Unfortunately, a very large part of that reason is the ridiculously awful timing of the map, which pp doesn't and shouldn't account for.

I'm not saying Winshley's play wasn't more impressive than its tp value indicates - the difficulties involved just aren't something pp measures.
Kunino Sagiri
272 posts
Joined January 2012
Kunino Sagiri

Wishy wrote:

If you happen to lose pp it's because there is some update going on or you beat one of your scores with another one that's worth less pp than your old one (dunno if this has been fixed yet, make ranks based on pp earned pls like osu!tp, ranked score is crap).
Then how about getting a new rank on a random insane, then getting inside rank 1000 with a 99% acc+ then losing pp (1-5pp)?

That "can't lose pp" is such the case during the past system but something is different now. There are even people losing 3 digit pps for some random reason
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
If you lose pp from a completely new rank, you are seeing the effects of algorithm changes. There is no correlation at all with your new score, it just triggered the update on your stats.
GentMOE
1 post
Joined April 2012
GentMOE
I completed a map with half a star with half time, no fail and easy and gained ranks, yet when I play an "insane" or "hard" map I actually lose ranks. Where do I complain about this? I might as well just SS easy maps only to get a higher rank.
laeamminlakana
89 posts
Joined August 2013
laeamminlakana
Ever since I got through airman (only a day or 2 ago) without any mods, it has felt as though every score has taken my rank down but simultaneously upped my pp. Tell me, am I drunk, is the pp system favoring accuracy more, or am I AND the pp system drunk? (recently DT'D a hard with 1 miss > +2pp but rank went down by 30, this triggered my need to stare at the rank)
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
You probably don't get enough pp and people are outranking you in the meanwhile
Keeby
50 posts
Joined July 2012
Keeby
as a small side note for the new star system (which I think is a good improvement), new qualified maps aren't being rated properly. (or is it supposed to be that way?)
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

Wishy wrote:

If you happen to lose pp it's because there is some update going on or you beat one of your scores with another one that's worth less pp than your old one (dunno if this has been fixed yet, make ranks based on pp earned pls like osu!tp, ranked score is crap).
Then how about getting a new rank on a random insane, then getting inside rank 1000 with a 99% acc+ then losing pp (1-5pp)?

That "can't lose pp" is such the case during the past system but something is different now. There are even people losing 3 digit pps for some random reason

Wishy wrote:

If you happen to lose pp it's because there is some update going on or you beat one of your scores with another one that's worth less pp than your old one (dunno if this has been fixed yet, make ranks based on pp earned pls like osu!tp, ranked score is crap).
WolfCoder
182 posts
Joined June 2009
WolfCoder
When I play the top ranks of people above me, its usually some map that's just slightly above my skill level that I have to beat. I'm surprised at how accurate it is now at gauging challenge. I'm climbing ranks much much slower now though, but it's about the journey- not the horizon.
IamNotgod_old
IamNotgod_old

Brimroth wrote:

Ever since I got through airman (only a day or 2 ago) without any mods, it has felt as though every score has taken my rank down but simultaneously upped my pp. Tell me, am I drunk, is the pp system favoring accuracy more, or am I AND the pp system drunk? (recently DT'D a hard with 1 miss > +2pp but rank went down by 30, this triggered my need to stare at the rank)
Yeah, I noticed that too. For example, one of my friends who played mostly DT maps with low 90s accuracy suddenly got 95% overall accuracy after the most recent recalculation. Also, all his DT scores got removed from his top performances aside from the only one he had a FC on (he only dropped ~500 ranks though from 14.5k to 15k). So his new top performances are just full combos that he himself said don't even feel like his best. On those new top performances, there were medium jumps at medium speeds with streams. We both feel that those are underwhelming to his fast, full-screen jumps in his DTs that lack many streams and have a little less accuracy. While having accuracy as a bigger factor is good and all, we should consider that good aim and good speed can also be had without such accuracy, which the current system doesn't seem capable to account for.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire
It's really depressing that people will ask the same question that Wishy gave an answer for, ON THE SAME PAGE, and the next page... a few more times... and has been answered in numerous separate topics, and previously in this thread by other people MULTIPLE times.

Your rank does not update every second, or hour, or even day. The act of making a new score forces an update of your rank. Sometimes it can not be updated for up to 3 days, in my case, then I make a new score and it updates and I "lose" 50 ranks. People passed me in PP while I wasn't playing. How hard is that to grasp?

There are only 2 ways you can lose PP... when the algorithm updates, or you make a worse performance overwriting an existing score. You lose ranks all the time, because everyone else is increasing their PP faster than you... BY PLAYING THE DAMN GAME AND GETTING BETTER INSTEAD OF WHINING ABOUT IT.

IamNotgod wrote:

For example, one of my friends who played mostly DT maps with low 90s accuracy suddenly got 95% overall accuracy after the most recent recalculation. Also, all his DT scores got removed from his top performances aside from the only one he had a FC on
Sigh...

Unless you're Jesus, you won't get PP doing that.
laref
48 posts
Joined September 2013
laref
I've not seen this asked yet. How much does the spinner mod affect pp?
Novixion
92 posts
Joined July 2013
Novixion

ntaig wrote:

I've not seen this asked yet. How much does the spinner mod affect pp?
Probably counts as a normal hit in terms of accuracy. Might contribute to speed?
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Tom94 wrote:

-ArmoredTitan- wrote:

3. Are spinners included in the PP formula? Also, would Spun Out affect your PP gain?
Spinners are included as having to aim to the center and move a big. They are pretty much negligible. SpunOut multiplies the pp you gain from that particular score by 0.95.
laeamminlakana
89 posts
Joined August 2013
laeamminlakana

GoldenWolf wrote:

You probably don't get enough pp and people are outranking you in the meanwhile
Outranking shouldn't matter now, that it is 100% based on the difficulty algorithm, unless it was changed into back into ranks mattering (which I personally disapprove of)

Edit: Brimroth achieved rank #283 on Rabpit - Sanctity [Hard] (osu!) this is the map, I just FC'd it with DT getting the rank you see, losing 23 ranks as I did it, but still acquiring 2 pp. Tom94, fix this please.
silmarilen
5,579 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
are you serious?
PlasticSmoothie
242 posts
Joined March 2010
PlasticSmoothie
All right guys.

What you need to realise is that there are others playing this game, and their rank can influence yours. How? If they're below you in overall rank (NOT A RANK ON A MAP) and then increase to being above you, you will drop 1, because now one more person is above you.

Now, there are a lot of people playing this game and so often many more than just one person will pass you overnight. When you then again play a song, your rank updates. You'll drop ranks because you gained no pp yet others passed you while you weren't playing/getting pp.

your rank does NOT update real-time, it updates EVERY TIME you set ANY KIND OF SCORE. So if it's been 24 hours since your lasts core, that's 24 hours of changes. Often at least one person will have passed you.
laeamminlakana
89 posts
Joined August 2013
laeamminlakana

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

All right guys.

What you need to realise is that there are others playing this game, and their rank can influence yours. How? If they're below you in overall rank (NOT A RANK ON A MAP) and then increase to being above you, you will drop 1, because now one more person is above you.

Now, there are a lot of people playing this game and so often many more than just one person will pass you overnight. When you then again play a song, your rank updates. You'll drop ranks because you gained no pp yet others passed you while you weren't playing/getting pp.

your rank does NOT update real-time, it updates EVERY TIME you set ANY KIND OF SCORE. So if it's been 24 hours since your lasts core, that's 24 hours of changes. Often at least one person will have passed you.
are you implying that 30 people passed me (or the others, haven't read the thread) by more than 2 pp in about 2 hours?
Horolynn
47 posts
Joined August 2010
Horolynn

Brimroth wrote:

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

All right guys.

What you need to realise is that there are others playing this game, and their rank can influence yours. How? If they're below you in overall rank (NOT A RANK ON A MAP) and then increase to being above you, you will drop 1, because now one more person is above you.

Now, there are a lot of people playing this game and so often many more than just one person will pass you overnight. When you then again play a song, your rank updates. You'll drop ranks because you gained no pp yet others passed you while you weren't playing/getting pp.

your rank does NOT update real-time, it updates EVERY TIME you set ANY KIND OF SCORE. So if it's been 24 hours since your lasts core, that's 24 hours of changes. Often at least one person will have passed you.
are you implying that 30 people passed me (or the others, haven't read the thread) by more than 2 pp in about 2 hours?
It's 6:39PM UTC now, this is the online users count:
It can go as high as 10-11k from what I've seen, probably higher.
Do you really think 30 people is a lot? There is many people that are better than you, get over it.
laeamminlakana
89 posts
Joined August 2013
laeamminlakana

Draxuss wrote:

Brimroth wrote:

are you implying that 30 people passed me (or the others, haven't read the thread) by more than 2 pp in about 2 hours?
It's 6:39PM UTC now, this is the online users count:
It can go as high as 10-11k from what I've seen, probably higher.
Do you really think 30 people is a lot? There is many people that are better than you, get over it.
s

I don't mind people being better than me, I mind the fact that it felt as though the system had messed up, but then I played an easy stream map and got like 40pp and figured screw blaming the system.
IamNotgod_old
IamNotgod_old

RaneFire wrote:

IamNotgod wrote:

For example, one of my friends who played mostly DT maps with low 90s accuracy suddenly got 95% overall accuracy after the most recent recalculation. Also, all his DT scores got removed from his top performances aside from the only one he had a FC on
Sigh...

Unless you're Jesus, you won't get PP doing that.
I don't understand why you would just discount that. No, he's not as good as you in the top 1000s, but he was still a decent player at least at 14k. Literally 7/10 of his top performances were non full combo DTs before the most recent update. I'm not complaining that the updates made him lose rank. In fact, he barely lost any. All that I was saying is that his new top performances don't seem to show what he is good at. Now it shows some easy-medium difficulty FCs with only average accuracy. Nothing shows what we both consider to be his best plays. I remember seeing something along the lines of some profile page rework maybe in the feature requests. Perhaps we could also include a new, separate section for the profile where a user can select 10 performances that they themselves feel showcase their own skill rather than only the 10 giving the most pp being shown.
Novixion
92 posts
Joined July 2013
Novixion
Is the new star system out? I noticed the star rating on some maps have already changed...

7.77??
Airman
Insanes are now ~3

And I thought 5.00+ are hard to find...
S o h
Global Moderator
161 posts
Joined January 2013
S o h
This thread isn't for people that are bad with math

or logic in general
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

Novixion wrote:

Is the new star system out? I noticed the star rating on some maps have already changed...
...
And I thought 5.00+ are hard to find...
I saw everything become [N], for normals, for a couple of minutes only 2 days ago. I was about to say "I can't even pass normals now" but then it was fixed to represent E/N/H properly with lower star values. Changelog says this was changed on the 27th Feb though, I guess there was some delay.

Yeah very few maps are above 4 stars now, it's practically only the maps on the first page of "sort by difficulty."

IamNotgod wrote:

Literally 7/10 of his top performances were non full combo DTs before the most recent update. I'm not complaining that the updates made him lose rank. In fact, he barely lost any. All that I was saying is that his new top performances don't seem to show what he is good at. Now it shows some easy-medium difficulty FCs with only average accuracy.
I just made an assumption based on the zero info you gave. I don't know who he is, or what maps he's been playing. All I meant by "unless you're jesus" was that you would need some crazy speed just for the pp system to recognise your play if it is a low-acc, non-fc. General rule of thumb, as Tom has explained many times, is that it rates good performances first and foremost, not bad ones.

Hypothetically I could only play DT on insanes and get 60-70% all the time, and then play an easier map and FC it and go WTF. I think it's a matter of what you think you can do, but the system doesn't see it that way.
Keeby
50 posts
Joined July 2012
Keeby
It would be nice to implement the star system in-game, if possible.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Keeby wrote:

It would be nice to implement the star system in-game, if possible.
All planned.
george111cz
7 posts
Joined June 2013
george111cz
I have a question: Did something change in the past few days about calculating pp? I have noticed, that i'm not getting any pp for songs that i finish without full comboing them. So basically after few hours of trying i finally beat a song that is difficult for me, only to see +0 pp. But then i full combo some relatively easy song on Nightcore (+HardRock/Hidden, depends), where the main problem is not to fall asleep during playing and i'm rewarded with at least some pp.

I remember, that finishing difficult songs (for your current level of skill/pp) was always highly rewarded. Was this changed?

The second explanation is, that my performance points simply caught up with me and now i'm where i'm supposed to be (which would, honestly, be quite sad :-))

Well, either way, thanks for any responses in advance and have a nice day everyone :-)

EDIT: Just tried it, played http://osu.ppy.sh/b/46004 on NC, first try, not even knowing how the beatmap actually looks: +1 pp Not even S rank, 93% accuracy. For something like this i'd expect to get +0, seems weird to me.
Commy
6 posts
Joined August 2011
Commy
rank is not showing correctly for a long time, for example, it shows rank 1000 ingame but on site (rankings) it is 980, whats wrong? o.o
Yano
191 posts
Joined November 2012
Yano

Commy wrote:

rank is not showing correctly for a long time, for example, it shows rank 1000 ingame but on site (rankings) it is 980, whats wrong? o.o
Rank isn't updating realtime now (Web)
Commy
6 posts
Joined August 2011
Commy

Ultrayano wrote:

Commy wrote:

rank is not showing correctly for a long time, for example, it shows rank 1000 ingame but on site (rankings) it is 980, whats wrong? o.o
Rank isn't updating realtime now (Web)
well, I dont think it is caused by updating because every single player (rrtyui, www and the others in top5 (?) no) has wrong rank written ingame, on site (profile), you can be #50 but it will still show #53 even if you never had this position
JappyBabes
666 posts
Joined February 2011
JappyBabes

Commy wrote:

well, I dont think it is caused by updating because every single player (rrtyui, www and the others in top5 (?) no) has wrong rank written ingame, on site (profile), you can be #50 but it will still show #53 even if you never had this position
hakurei/shizuru/others that have temporary (i think) bans still have their ranks calculated etc
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
some players are hidden




Soinou
747 posts
Joined June 2012
Soinou
I know I must be annoying or everything, but ...



It's OD 10, there is lots of jumps, and it's not really the easiest map possible, but ...

It's not DT, so no pp.

Why ? ...

Edit :

Nah, OD 10 means nothing for ppv2 ...
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
Because those maps aren't hard, OD10 isn't hard in itself when you only have 1/2 through the maps

Example: http://osutp.net/scores?pid=475021&s=3
All those maps are OD9.8/10 and pretty much the same accuracy (there are even SSes on the bottom), the acc value can change a lot depending on how hard the map actually is
Soinou
747 posts
Joined June 2012
Soinou
Well, i know that, but it's still hard for me, and pp was before something you gain when you improve.

I'm improving, because i'm doing scores i couldn't do before, and i'm not gaining anything.

It's like the game is saying i suck and i should stop playing, or go farm DT because now only DT is rewarded.
Novixion
92 posts
Joined July 2013
Novixion

Soinou wrote:

Well, i know that, but it's still hard for me, and pp was before something you gain when you improve.

I'm improving, because i'm doing scores i couldn't do before, and i'm not gaining anything.

It's like the game is saying i suck and i should stop playing, or go farm DT because now only DT is rewarded.
Before pp was farming all day.

With the amount of pp you have and the accuracy of those scores, you wouldn't get much pp. To get accuracy pp you need >99%, which is why DT, which grants aim and speed, gives more points.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

I'll assume they're mostly DT/speed based scores

The thing is, those HR scores you've set are far easier than all those DT scores, since the main gain of HR is accuracy, and those accuracies you've got being not so good, you won't gain much/anything from them
Soinou
747 posts
Joined June 2012
Soinou
Yeah, so in fact, it's all about DT, OR having 99% HR, which is kinda impossible for me right now.

So, in the end, i must DT, or do nothing at all ?

Pretty good ranking system, yeah
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