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[Proposal] Increase AR/OD cap from 10 to 11

posted
Total Posts
54
yaspo
osu! Alumni
249 posts
Joined September 2014
Topic Starter
yaspo
Reasoning:
As a result of pushing player skill level, we've been seeing maps like this and this going for ranked with extreme bpms (300 and up).

Maps like this are hindered by the following in-game limitations:
  1. Approach Rate (AR) being capped at 10. Due to this cap, the amount of objects on screen becomes very high and make the maps difficult to process - even when that is not intended by the map's design
  2. Overall Difficulty (OD) being capped at 10. At extreme bpms the window for notelock becomes smaller and smaller, quickly becoming too punishing and making it hard to get consistent attempts
We've also been able to observe players dealing with AR and OD above 10 at high degrees of competence for a long time now, so it feels like there's no need to preserve these limitations.

Discussion points:
To not jump the gun, we should first discuss if increasing the AR/OD cap from 10 to 11 is beneficial at all and if there are counter-arguments against it.
Later we can worry about relevant RC changes.

note: yes we've been confirmed with ppy that implementation should be quick work
Last edited by yaspo , edited 1 time in total.
AJT
529 posts
Joined August 2013
AJT
copypaste from github post:

honestly this is needed even in stable if that's even possible. maps are quickly becoming too much for AR10 to support their densities and being ranked anyways which is bad from a future-proofing standpoint

examples: beatmapsets/1263883#osu/2627024 https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1201974#osu/2586420 beatmapsets/1390177#osu/2870806

additional thoughts. this is straight up NECESSARY for such maps. If needed you can force max AR/OD to be 10 in guidelines, that way you'd only be able to exceed it if the map truly needs it (which should be quite obvious). I don't really see any substantial counterarguments that would mean that this is a bad thing to add - people putting AR11 on random graveyarded maps that don't need it would probably actually be more of a plus than a minus since there would probably be people that want to practice it without McOsu/osutrainer
Last edited by AJT , edited 3 times in total.
Mordred
532 posts
Joined October 2015
Mordred
settings up to 11 would be cool but at the same time I don't want more excuses to rank low effort 12* bait
Ryuusei Aika
Elite Mapper
1,085 posts
Joined January 2016
Ryuusei Aika
as a 12* mapper myself i can agree with yaspo & ajt since this would benefit the readability & accability of anything 8*+ with 270+ bpm

i also don't think increasing the ar/od cap would be "not beneficial" since we have more room to choose not less
Last edited by Ryuusei Aika , edited 1 time in total.
UberFazz
Medal Hunter
162 posts
Joined July 2016
UberFazz
just wanna emphasize how important this is as someone who's playtested these types of maps a lot

the experience gets 1000x better (especially with ht, which is how most people will be playing the maps) cuz of density, bpm, blah blah blah we've been over this, just read yaspo's post that explains it perfectly

tl;dr:

yaspo wrote:

While 360bpm isn't listed, we can just double the number for 180bpm instead. 180bpm at AR10 has a density of 2.7, so 360bpm at AR10 has a density of 5.4. This is the same as AR8 on 215bpm or AR9 on 270 .. really dense reading territory.

Closer home for fast aim players, let’s look at DT ranges. At 270 bpm, a regular anime map + DT, AR between 11 and 10.3 means from 2.8 to 3.6 circles visible at any given time. That’s an entire 2 circles lower than this map’s density. Ouch.

You only reach similar numbers on .. 270bpm AR9 + DT or ~405bpm AR10.3, since DT only speeds up the game but doesn’t change density. On AR11 everything is lower (technically reaches 5.4 at ~540bpm).
MAKE IT HAPPEN
VINXIS
Featured Artist
3,161 posts
Joined April 2014
VINXIS
unrelated to The Discussion Starter Map i also think it would be beneficial for other maps at similar difficulty level from 8*+

IMO the only issue that comes from this is regarding balancing the AR/OD buffs at 11+DT that will definitely be used by some select mappers to bloat PP **tremendously** and shit
Last edited by VINXIS , edited 1 time in total.
Mir
osu! Alumni
2,151 posts
Joined July 2016
Mir
yeah i think this is 100% necessary as the skill ceiling for this game keeps getting higher and more and more difficult/dense maps inevitably get pushed forward

also @Mordred i get what u mean but those higher diff settings meaning more 12* bait isn't the full picture imo. the higher diff settings allow for actually good higher density maps as well

but yeah in the long run this just seems like a logical step forward
Last edited by Mir , edited 3 times in total.
Ryuusei Aika
Elite Mapper
1,085 posts
Joined January 2016
Ryuusei Aika

VINXIS wrote:

unrelated to The Discussion Starter Map i also think it would be beneficial for other maps at similar difficulty level from 8*+

IMO the only issue that comes from this is regarding balancing the AR/OD buffs at 11+DT that will definitely be used by some select mappers to bloat PP **tremendously** and shit
i have came up with the "pp bloat" issue too but i guess since bng has officially cancelled pp maps this theoretically should not be a big problem
Last edited by Ryuusei Aika , edited 1 time in total.
moonpoint
311 posts
Joined January 2017
moonpoint
as mentioned in the op, being able to play AR10+ and OD10+ has become a common skill outside even top top players for *years* now (easy example is ar10.3). we're kinda missing a demographic of specific maps in that sense, since that's a skillset only accessible with mods

as for higher star maps then yea, upping the cap on those settings is a MUST lol

that being said, is implementation really *that* easy? what effect would HR have on an AR10.5 map? should HR remove the hard cap on AR10 OD10? if not, then what do we do about legacy scores? i know i'd personally opt for a secondary HR mod that lacks any caps (accessible just like clicking on DT twice to get NC?) but suddenly, that doesn't sound like "quick work" to me
VINXIS
Featured Artist
3,161 posts
Joined April 2014
VINXIS

Ryuusei Aika wrote:

VINXIS wrote:

unrelated to The Discussion Starter Map i also think it would be beneficial for other maps at similar difficulty level from 8*+

IMO the only issue that comes from this is regarding balancing the AR/OD buffs at 11+DT that will definitely be used by some select mappers to bloat PP **tremendously** and shit
i have came up with the "pp bloat" issue too but i guess since bng has officially cancelled pp maps this theoretically should not be a big problem
theoretically

either way tho i agree that its a good idea to go forward with it
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
100% agree, it allows for mappers to have a bit more freedom in the songs they map and how they choose to map them.

The only counterargument I see is potential abuse, but those maps should just be gated. I know it's not that simple sometimes, but we shouldn't prevent the addition of a good feature just because people might abuse it. Or by that logic you'd just remove pp altogether.
VINXIS
Featured Artist
3,161 posts
Joined April 2014
VINXIS

mrowswares wrote:

that being said, is implementation really *that* easy? what effect would HR have on an AR10.5 map? should HR remove the hard cap on AR10 OD10? if not, then what do we do about legacy scores? i know i'd personally opt for a secondary HR mod that lacks any caps (accessible just like clicking on DT twice to get NC?) but suddenly, that doesn't sound like "quick work" to me
Could just use replay/osu file format versions to keep previous scores in tact i think so that way the game knows the difference of when AR/OD 11 was added
Last edited by VINXIS , edited 2 times in total.
Belladonna
77 posts
Joined February 2018
Belladonna
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Last edited by Belladonna , edited 3 times in total.
Shmiklak
Elite Storyboarder
3,218 posts
Joined January 2015
Shmiklak
agree with the fact that those settings limitations should be increased as all mentioned high sr sets would definitely benefit from it
zPeanut
74 posts
Joined November 2016
zPeanut
how would this affect HR though? does HR now go up to 11 too?
Omgforz
166 posts
Joined November 2010
Omgforz
edited opinion on this change:
yeah go for it, tbh. i think there's only a net gain here.


probably talking for the majority of players here by saying that if the hard cap is changed to 11, HR shouldn't multiply OD and AR by 1.4 as it is doing right now

any ~AR8 and higher map just becomes really stupid to play with HR and you basically can't play HR without learning AR11 which already is a niche skill set. which means almost all 4+ star maps become insanely inaccessible for the majority of the player base

so there's 3 choices we prob have
1) hard cap anything with HR at 10 (so ar10.5 base becomes ar10.. might not be ideal and counterintuitive tbh)
2) have a 2 part function (ar<=10 and od<=10 stay as current HR, any value above 10 is unchanged. ar10.5 stays ar10.5 with hr for example)
3) have a 2 part function (ar<=10 and od<=10 stay as current HR, any value above 10 gets scaled to 11 because it's multiplied by 1.4)

i'd personally find the 2nd solution the most interesting especially for tourneys, while the 3rd prob makes the most sense for now
Last edited by Omgforz , edited 1 time in total.
moonpoint
311 posts
Joined January 2017
moonpoint

Omgforz wrote:

2) have a 2 part function (ar<=10 and od<=10 stay as current HR, any value above 10 is unchanged. ar10.5 stays ar10.5 with hr for example)
apologies if the HR discussion has derailed the post but i think this is ideal IMO
yaspo
osu! Alumni
249 posts
Joined September 2014
Topic Starter
yaspo
I think being concerned for the implementation of difficulty-increasing mods and brainstorming a bit is fine. People new to the thread should definitely have their focus set on answering "is the increase of this cap a good idea", though. One answer at a time.

One lamer alternative could be to lock mods when AR/OD is above 10 on stable and leave Lazer™ as a testing ground for actual implementations.

The "pp bloat" concern is there, though I think that's something we can eventually cover with RC. In current time you'd only do AR/OD above 10 on maps that are eligible for such extremes, which means it can be covered under difficulty guidelines.
Belladonna
77 posts
Joined February 2018
Belladonna
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Last edited by Belladonna , edited 1 time in total.
lystia
17 posts
Joined October 2017
lystia
this would be a godsend honestly so many maps have their playability killed by the forced ar10 cap and they're becoming more common by the day so. yes
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