When I joined osu!, the first monumental gameplay challenge that I came across was the spinner. Sure, I had spun great in Ouendan, but there was something challenging for me about spinning with the mouse. One of the first songs I played and mastered in osu! was Distance [m-flo mix] by Utada Hikaru. Anyone who has played this map knows there are a few fairly difficult spinners (especially for a new player) towards the end. I would become extremely frustrated when I missed them or the notes afterwards. Eventually, however, I was able to spin and hit them afterwards. It was a struggle, but I could do it.

Back then (June, July 2008), the spinners in "Distance" were about as hard as spinners got. People complained about the spinners in Wizards in Winter back then, but everyone also knew that WiW should not have been ranked in the first place. Spinners back then were used appropriately; for long sounds or the finish for the beatmap. I miss those days.

Now, spinners are used wherever. And this is rankable. If there is a spot in a song with no particular beats or seeming area for a hitcircle, rather than using the warning arrows that the maps of old would use.

It's almost as if mappers today forgot that the warning arrows existed. In old maps, when there was a tiny pause with no beats in the song, warning arrows would appear for a moment before the hitcircles resumed. That made sense. The pause would be too small for a break, so arrows made sense. But nowadays, this simply isn't done. Even with extensive storyboard options and storyboard editor at mappers' disposals, they simply throw spinners in. Spinners that don't belong. These spinners are incredibly short, pointless, go with nothing, and are simply bad fillers.

I know someone reading this will say "no u sux0rz ! spinners are fun and make the beatmap challenging !" This is true, spinners can be fun in places and they are certainly challenging (especially for me, hater of ninja spinners). But there are much better ways of making beatmaps hard. Smaller circles, jumps, streams, different BPMs... Putting spinners into songs without the spinners fitting the song at all is, in my mind, NOT an acceptable way of making a beatmap harder.

So what about short spinners that go with the beat ? Wizards in Winter comes to mind. The spinners go with the beat, but they are so short that they are automatic 50s, no matter how fast the mouse is turned. If the sound in the song is THAT short, instead of a spinner, does a hitcircle not make sense ? In which Ouendan or EBA beatmap is there a spinner that players cannot easily get bonus points on and clear ? Spinners are for LONG sounds for relief from hitting circles quickly and for bonus points.

Off the top of my head, I cannot think of several beatmaps with terrible 'ninja' spinners (and it is 5 AM), but I will name a few: Faint, Piece of Me, Caramelldansen [Speedycake](Yes, this DOES have one quick spinner in it for no reason, go check it out), and Kaeshite! Knee Socks.

So what is my conclusion ? Spinners need to be regulated. I have a few suggestions:

1) Make it a requirement that Auto can receive at least 2000 bonus points on a spinner in order for the beatmap to be ranked

2) Make sure all spinners go with some sort of beat. If the spinner is introducing the beat, replace it with warning arrows

3) Make a warning appear for all spinners so that the player does not have to memorise spinners that do not have anything to do with the beatmap and appear for less than a second

::

I know that this spinner issue has been a growing concern for many players who also feel like the quality of ranked beatmaps is steadily declining. This is just one issue I think needs to be looked at by people bigger than me. I hope to see a lot of BATs posting in here about how they feel about it. And, of course, regular players like me and you. I want to stop this before it gets out of hand. I want this topic to be a discussion similar to Rolled's thread regarding Half Time.

Post your thoughts !

...And don't get me started on changing slider velocities without warning...

I think auto+2000 should be a set in stone rule, as the bare minimum. Spinners should be encouraged to be longer than this. I don't think spinners should ever have been exploited as sliders have been since osu! came about.

I'd still leave it up to the mapper to decide where spinners go and don't go, but spinner location should probably be something to keep in mind while modding.

At the same time, I really don't like short breaks either. Way to cocktease me with a break that isn't there. Now I have to play this entire section in this awkward position because I can't move without screwing myself up.

I personally don't want the 2000+ be a st rule as I've seen maps where the spinner is short but it wasn't hard to pass.
I say 2000 is a major guideline but the spinners can be under 2000 in semi-rare cases...

As soon as the word "exception" comes out of anyone's mouth, every map afterwards will want to be an exception.

I agree with enforcing this rule.

(and yes I do regret making WiW... sometimes)

Well meant as in 2 BATs agree with the spinners that they're ok even know they are under 2000 Bonus....
Also I like WIW, I don't find the spinners hard to pass....

I agree with you.
Well, maybe 2000 is perhaps too much, for me 1000 is enough.
And... Speaking of bonus. I think that everyone will not get constant RPM or fast enough to get always 2000.
So minimum bonus is a stupid thing... How about a minimum time?

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

Echo wrote:

We're talking about auto, not human player

Even in this case it doesn't make any sense.

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

Echo wrote:

As soon as the word "exception" comes out of anyone's mouth, every map afterwards will want to be an exception.

I agree with enforcing this rule.

(and yes I do regret making WiW... sometimes)

I agree. So that's why I'm trying for the 'set in stone' push. Because right now it isn't, and all I see coming into the ranked beatmaps section is tons of ninja spinners.

Ekaru wrote:

I highly regret that one spinner in Knight of the Wind. >_>; Ruined the whole map IMO.

I actually planned on posting this map as well, but I forgot last night.

Ekaru wrote:

If you want to challenge a player, then make it "fair". As in, do it the old fashion way of jumps, fast sliders, ect. Short spinners followed by a hit circle 1/2 beat after = FAILURE. It doesn't challenge the player so much as piss them off. You can see jumps, lots of hit circles, slider paths, ect., but you can't see if a note's going to come after a spinner til you're already spinning (if the note appears as the spinner appears, you're doing it wrong. >_>)

Completely agree. This is how I feel.

Metroid wrote:

Well meant as in 2 BATs agree with the spinners that they're ok even know they are under 2000 Bonus....
Also I like WIW, I don't find the spinners hard to pass....

WiW can be fun, but I don't think it should be ranked and I DEFINITELY think the spinners are 'easy to pass'. Some of them are so short that even if you don't touch your keyboard, you get automatic 50s. But they're TOO SHORT to do anything on. Auto 50s is no better than being unable to hit it at all or miss the notes afterwards. Point is, they're far too short.

^_^ (^)^) ^O^ Hello







Anyways, spinners are insane, but 2000+ is how I map, and if spinners are that length, fairly possible ...... as long as there isn't a hitcircle right after the 2000+, that's hard right there

songs tps mentioned are old-ish already. how about pointing out new songs? like one or two months ago...
if you cant mention songs that are recently ranked, so that means the rule is enforced already.


i thought i was reading a april 6 2008 post.

As far as I am concerned, this is already a regulation. Basically, what James said. XD

The spinners on this one are borderline.

Tutti Frutti Summer Love

Just a song I played a few minutes ago.

Granted I haven't play much of the recent maps myself. But I could easily say that I easily watch out spinners and their bonuses, so this is already part of my modding regulation.

Concerning the placement of the spinners though, I personally encourage personal style as long as it is rankable. The placement of a spinner and its usage is far too flexible to be regulated. My views might seem bias since I am personally a huge fan of short spinners, but I think it is slightly ridiculous to tell beatmappers off just because I don't like the feel of where they put their spinners. I might recommend a change, but I definitely won't enforce it, because if we had to talk about mapping styles that I dislike, I might as well just map the crap myself.

EDIT: I should also note that improvisation seems to have become a common trend in here, which is a good thing... if we have to regulate where spinners are, we might as well regulate all those deathstreams or stacks that have no actual beats following them.

I'll help.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/4394

Ranked... Feb 11, 2009, look at the hardest difficulty. Look at 37:413. 1K bonus, and yes, I have trouble with it. It's sudden, short, and the note afterwards is a pain to get. This map also has lots of inappropriate spinner usage in general; most of them don't make any sense at all. It's like he used spinners just to use spinners! At least Hito uses her brain when putting in spinners. Lots of long-ass spinners placed in random spots, often with hit circles half a beat afterwards just kills my arm, and makes me wish the map would end already. Most of those spots would've worked better as sliders, except for the spot with long spinners over and over again, where it could have just been a break if you were going to be lazy that way.

See, spinners should usually be used sparingly for a reason; they aren't fun if there are too many of them, are used inappropriately, or are too short. When used right, though, they're quite fun. But my arm has a stamina limit; if my arm has taken a rest and is in perfect condition, my arm shouldn't get sore halfway through the map. It's not fun to me.

Remember, we're not talking just about short spinners; also gay usage. Spinners over and over and over = XP There should seriously be a limit on amount too, like 5 every minute max IMO. Any more and it just gets annoying.

./rant

ThePassingShadow wrote:

The spinners on this one are borderline.

Tutti Frutti Summer Love

Just a song I played a few minutes ago.

Ouch. Having the spinner end and, on the same measure, having hit circles, is quite a pain. Some of those spinners could have been removed, yes, but some of the "illegal" (under your limit of 2k on auto) spinners I would be fine with.

MaxwellDemon wrote:

Concerning the placement of the spinners though, I personally encourage personal style as long as it is rankable. The placement of a spinner and its usage is far too flexible to be regulated.

Agreed. I think short spinners fit well with Love Love Sugar (my Insane difficulty is in the works, and has difficultish spinners). They're not overly difficult on Normal (they are on Insane), but Spun Out can't handle them (100's).

I agree with everything MaxwellDemon has said. Basically, the 2k limit should be thought of as a guideline. I would suggest having a rule (which may be broken at e.g. peppy's discretion, like with high-scoring maps) where Auto must be able to 100% the song. Also, Spun Out shouldn't get any 50's except in rare cases. And absolutely no X's for obvious reasons.

@Ekaru's issue about stamina: For shorter songs (like Love Love Sugar, ~1:30) would you say "excessive" spinner usage (see my Normal) is acceptable?

I am by no means a veteran or a good map maker or modder. I do, however, enjoy some challenge when playing maps. WiW is a bit extreme, but still enjoyable. Osu! is about fun, not 100% accuracy... If you don't like a map, don't play it!

Disclaimer: Plug of my map was unintentional.

I don't know, I feel that 100% accuracy should always be achieveable. I'm not really an accuracy whore myself as I've proven in the past, but the maximum accuracy for a song should not be less than 100%. It's fundamentally wrong. Of course, I don't know what to do exactly about the past; changing old maps is probably not a good idea. But there is no reason that maps should be made nowadays where 100% isn't achieveable.

Ivalset wrote:

I don't know, I feel that 100% accuracy should always be achieveable. I'm not really an accuracy whore myself as I've proven in the past, but the maximum accuracy for a song should not be less than 100%. It's fundamentally wrong. Of course, I don't know what to do exactly about the past; changing old maps is probably not a good idea. But there is no reason that maps should be made nowadays where 100% isn't achieveable.

This is something I had not even considered, but you're exactly right. Less than 100% accuracy possible doesn't make sense.

Personally I think "regulations" like this (the minimum spinner length) ought to be built into the editor.

LuigiHann wrote:

Personally I think "regulations" like this (the minimum spinner length) ought to be built into the editor.

I hope by "minimum spinner length" you mean "300'able by Auto." Otherwise, I'll have to disagree with you. Limiting the ability of the map maker sucks. Would you prohibit lengthy songs (>= 5 minutes) in the editor?

Instead of discouraging short spinners or prohibiting them altogether, why not simply change the way they behave?

Spinners shorter than a set time, for instance, will be spinnable at full RPM from the start, or would take a reasonably short amount of time to 300.

I agree with Ivalset in that all maps should be able to be completed at 100% here, though I admit I don't quite know the policy here regarding changing scoring or gameplay formulas. I think that this would "fix" some of the older maps (WiW, for instance), that require ridiculously high spin speeds to 100%, while still giving beatmappers the option for short spinners.

Granted, 300'ing short spinners will still be harder to get than 300 on longer spinners; my suggestion is to simply move this into the realm of human ability.

strager wrote:

LuigiHann wrote:

Personally I think "regulations" like this (the minimum spinner length) ought to be built into the editor.

I hope by "minimum spinner length" you mean "300'able by Auto." Otherwise, I'll have to disagree with you. Limiting the ability of the map maker sucks. Would you prohibit lengthy songs (>= 5 minutes) in the editor?

I think it should be limited in the editor as well. However, I think that maps that are going to be uploaded and requested for 'Approved' may have 'ninja spinners' and other things.

I think editor should ask at the beginning if the map is on the track for Approved or for Ranked. Then rules could be set accordingly. If a mapper decides to change from Ranked to Approved in mid-mapping, the regulations would be dropped, and if someone decided the opposite (Approved to Ranked), then editor would prevent uploading until the spots of violation were fixed. Editor could pop up with a warning that said, "Cannot be uploaded until spinner at 03:01:07 is removed or lengthened" or something to that effect.

But talking about the issues we have with Ranked/Approved maps is a whole different story anyway.. Let's not go off on that tangent.

I disagree with editor-level check - I think this sort of thing should be checked at the modding level.

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

james039 wrote:

3)Shorter-ish spinners
-Apparently there's a push for there to be a rule that a map is not rankable unless auto can get to 2000 bonus. I think that's too strict. I really think any spinner that's at least 300-able should pass.

The point in the 2000 bonus is that Auto literally spins faster than humanly possible. If it can't get a 300 then we know that no human can, but if it gets a 300 that doesn't necessarily mean it's 300able by a human player.

I would admit that the built-in editro limitation that I suggest would probably only be based on Auto being able to 300 it.

I want to make it clear that I DO NOT wish to push for already ranked maps to be deranked by these new set in stone rules, if they are implemented. Just making sure this is clear.

Although WiW really should be approved...

WiW is more of a light show than a beatmap, we can leave it alone for the purpose of the debate.

I have a personal rule where any spinner under 0.5s should be out, no matter what. If it's less than 0.7s, I'm very reluctant to allow it.

Sure, stifling creativity is bad, but when the hell do you ever need a spinner that short? Would it kill you to have a hitcircle, or even nothing there? Spinners that are under a second almost always fall under the category of "dick move".

Sidetracked additional thought:

Putting a spinner in the middle of a combo is often rough and disorienting, and any maps barring the most difficult (perhaps 2 most difficult) should always have some kind of breather between the spinner's end and the next note (though this is a personal choice and I don't think should require enforcing, it's just more of my "fun > difficulty" philosophy).

I don't have any problem enforcing an Auto+2000 for ranked maps. Approved should still have the 300 requirement, but I'm fine with no auto bonus for those.

Instead of bothering with auto you should just ask if I can hit the spinner.

I really disagree with strict regulation on the length of spinners. As you all probably know from Ushiwaka.

However, I do feel that even on the top-end difficulties that spinners need to be 300-able and at least be predictable and not just pop out of the blue as the truest of ninja spinners do. I've seen some of such spinners (incredibly fast and show up literally out of nowhere) in my time, and I hate these. They're very disorientating and are surefires to making the player mess up. I have to back what was said about "if you can see the beat before the spinner, you're doing it wrong" thing.

Concerning easier difficulties, yes, spinners there should definitely be longer, as the difficulty is, indeed, meant to be easier, and short spinners are just a call for less skilled players to mess up. However, I have nothing to say about a strict regulation here.

About how spinners are used, I don't want to be strict on this either, as it limits how the mapper can put their map together. Creativity is what keeps new and interesting maps coming in and being ranked, after all.

I just played a few maps with ninjas...and heres what i think.

I agree with everything you said, TPS. Spinners should be used to end the map, or before breaks. NEVER in between two fast combos. I think spinners should be regulated. They should be more than 5-7 seconds long, with an average Overall Difficulty. This should be built in to the editor, too.

@Echo: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/27492 and http://osu.ppy.sh/s/3284

These maps were ranked RECENTLY, and they both contain many ninjas. This must be built in to the editor. Like, now. As long as the editor allows it, there will be ninja spinners, and some moderators hardly play this game, so they would just rank it anyways.

Zerostarry wrote:

and some moderators hardly play this game, so they would just rank it anyways.

THIS is definitely something that I was waiting for someone to say. This is why Editor needs a built-in feature.

Zerostarry wrote:

Spinners should be used to end the map, or before breaks. NEVER in between two fast combos. I think spinners should be regulated. They should be more than 5-7 seconds long, with an average Overall Difficulty. This should be built in to the editor, too.

I very strongly disagree with that level of restriction. Aside from the super-short spinners which I think should be eliminated, I think everything else being discussed here is a matter of taste, and not something that should be imposed as a rule. Different mappers use spinners in different ways, and I think that's fine.

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

Zerostarry wrote:

@Echo: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/27492 and http://osu.ppy.sh/s/3284

These maps were ranked RECENTLY, and they both contain many ninjas.

Shoot m980 and tapdancingmetroid

very late edit:
Equally annoying are beats right after spinners. I think these shouldn't be allowed either - I propose there must be at least half a beat between the end of a spinner and the next note, but preferably a whole beat.

Echo wrote:

very late edit:
Equally annoying are beats right after spinners. I think these shouldn't be allowed either - I propose there must be at least half a beat between the end of a spinner and the next note, but preferably a whole beat.

^

That's my main problem with quick spinners.

We cant really make a rule, you're all osu players, if something just trips you up in a map while modding POINT IT OUT. Even if there is nothing technically wrong with it.

like Boten Anna's just flat out absurd difficulty jump.

Spinners are a design choice, just like anything else in a map.

Naturally, if they make the map unplayable or hardly playable, they should be refused ranking. Beyond that, we can't something to be changed "because it sucks" if it's still within the beatmapping guidelines.

There will always be good maps and bad maps. Spinner abuse is just another thing which can make a map bad. FC & forget.

MetalMario201 wrote:

Spinners are a design choice, just like anything else in a map.

Naturally, if they make the map unplayable or hardly playable, they should be refused ranking. Beyond that, we can't something to be changed "because it sucks" if it's still within the beatmapping guidelines.

There will always be good maps and bad maps. Spinner abuse is just another thing which can make a map bad. FC & forget.

The thing is...

The posters in this thread (most of them) feel that the beatmapping guidelines need to be changed to make a better overall osu! experience.

lukewarmholiday wrote:

We cant really make a rule, you're all osu players, if something just trips you up in a map while modding POINT IT OUT. Even if there is nothing technically wrong with it.

like Boten Anna's just flat out absurd difficulty jump.

Yeah, you'd think that would help, but it only ends up getting you in pointless arguments with the map's creator.


I would know, since i've been a part of quite a handful of these arguments.

Input from a random average osu! player: (me)

I actually have fairly good accuracy imo, if I get 50s or 100s they usually come when beats are really far apart (irrelevant here) but I know a lot of them come from rape spinners too, stuff like: Spin, notenotenote, spin, notenotenote, spinspinspin all in the course of 8 seconds (0 time for breaks) and stuff like that just makes me go "ARGH fucking combo breaker". I'm not a machine and while I *can* spin at 450+, I either get lucky and mega-spin super fast for a few seconds and get a decent bonus, but can't adjust my arm in time and miss the next note (no problem for normal spinners, just ninjas), or I can't get spinning fast enough to avoid a <300.

I notice a lot of the really good maps come from the same mappers (I have over 3300, so I've seen quite a lot) and honestly I *think* that eventually the mappers just get tired of making difficulties that are easy enough for the "average" player to pass, so they do insane versions that only the pros have any chance of passing. I'll admit the insane versions are usually quite fun, even to me, but being ranked with ninja spinners and players like Saturos and Cyclone (and others of course) unable to get 100% is kinda... bleh.

Basically...

ThePassingShadow wrote:

The posters in this thread (most of them) feel that the beatmapping guidelines need to be changed to make a better overall osu! experience.

The majority of us are just average players and unless we have touch screen computers (which I'm actually gonna get a touch screen monitor soon... -cough-) we fail compared to you pros. Think of us nubs D:

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

MetalMario201 wrote:

There are places where a 1-second spinner works just fine, fits, and doesn't confound the player.

Spinners by design are meant to be more than 1 second long.

Also, how common are these places where 1 second long spinners fit? I doubt it's common at all, in which case it makes much more sense to make an exception when such a case occurs, as long as the majority of BATs agree with it.

MetalMario201 wrote:

ThePassingShadow wrote:

The thing is...

The posters in this thread (most of them) feel that the beatmapping guidelines need to be changed to make a better overall osu! experience.

Well, it gets really sticky trying to dictate just what kinds of spinners are appropriate. There are places where a 1-second spinner works just fine, fits, and doesn't confound the player. Likewise, there are places where a 6-second spinner is just stupid.

It becomes less a technical issue and more a creative one, and there isn't any fair way to regulate that.

If you see something you don't like when modding a map, point it out, and if the mapper understands, he'll fix it. If he doesn't, it's probably a bad map anyway.

I'm just saying that 'technically', there should never be a one-second spinner. Ever.

Make a HIT CIRCLE instead. The rule can be built into the editor (the rule would be so that the length is Auto 300 +2(3)000) and that will be 'technical' and there will be no more maps with one-second spinners.

I don't think anyone will ever convince me that a one-second spinner makes sense.

I noticed people making fun of me in IRC (rightfully so) about not understanding what breaks are.

Yeah, I thought the breaks with the warning arrows weren't called 'breaks' and that the only 'breaks' were the ones long enough to have a fail/pass animation (circle or X). Now I know that even the little short sections with the warning arrows are also breaks.

So... I should edit my first post, but I'll fix it later. In the meantime, know that I feel that mappers should add short breaks rather than just filler ninja spinners.

I disagree with both short breaks (which look ugly) and short spinners (which are just gay) - seriously, does every 2 beat section between notes need a break/spinner?

A section between 2 notes under 4 beats does not warrant a break. Anything under 1 beat means you don't add a spinner. There should be at least half a beat between the end of a spinner and the next note. Spinners should not be lined up one after the other unless they're each already fairly long.

This isn't limiting your creativity in any way. Using breaks and spinners in that manner is as illogical placing sliders outside the play area.

I think there's some disagreement here as to just how long one second is. It's usually in the neighbourhood of two beats (with 120bpm being a comfortable average) and is long enough for Auto to rack up 3000 bonus points with Overall Difficulty slammed all the way over to max. This is about the minimum reasonable.