I'm afraid that if I used an option like this I'd end up picking colors that occasionally blend more with the background than the original ones would have... I use yellow in tag coop and every now and then I find myself wishing I had picked another color instead.

Not really a huge fan of this request as a whole (it breaks Fear Factory ), but I wouldn't object to it being implemented I guess.

1. Let mappers do their best, let players do their best.
2. LET'S COMPROMISE!

What's the point you even think about option 2....?

Disabling things shouldn't be necessary to enjoy the game. But what if it start to make most players and mappers feel better? It's unnecessary, but will be useful. And we still should ban it because of unnecessary? Do you remember Faraday and electricity?

(1) is an ideal, but an impractical one, because different people have different concepts of what's best. Finding common ground is necessary to make something that everyone can enjoy. It's not always possible for everyone to have their way.

Yeah it wouldn't hurt much to add something like this but it's still not my say. peppy has made it clear that he doesn't want disablers for anything related to skinning and I'm not going against that.

mm201 wrote:

(1) is an ideal, but an impractical one, because different people have different concepts of what's best. Finding common ground is necessary to make something that everyone can enjoy. It's not always possible for everyone to have their way.

Not really, at least we get more close to the ideal with the feature, because... different people have different concepts of what's best.

mm201 wrote:

Yeah it wouldn't hurt much to add something like this but it's still not my say. peppy has made it clear that he doesn't want disablers for anything related to skinning and I'm not going against that.

If it's peppy's will i can't say much about it. Maybe let the discussion continues a while and see if peppy would like to change his idea.

Let's throw a wrench in the works: Suppose my ideal is that I should be able to play every map with its custom skin and like it. This feature now makes my gameplay experience worse.

mm201 wrote:

Let's throw a wrench in the works: Suppose my ideal is that I should be able to play every map with its custom skin and like it. This feature now makes my gameplay experience worse.

It stays the same since one of the option is to keep it as original, don't forget it plz?

NatsumeRin wrote:

mm201 wrote:

Let's throw a wrench in the works: Suppose my ideal is that I should be able to play every map with its custom skin and like it. This feature now makes my gameplay experience worse.

It stays the same since one of the option is to keep it as original, don't forget it plz?

And should we assume all mappers will use that?

But it goes back to my earlier point, that this would imply removing quality control from object colour choice, allowing mappers to choose difficult-to-see colours.

^that's not quite what mm meant.
The important part is the "and like it" which expresses his concern that the colors the mapper chooses might be (nearly) unplayable because mappers will just assume that players can change them anyway~
/E: Too late \:D/

All this idea is going on assumptions, all of the supporters are assuming the mappers will let players play their colours, while others can be assuming all mappers are going to choose to keep their colours.

All in all this is only a way to justify "Im too lazy to check if colours blend with the background" which is probably one of the most easy checks in a map.

This is just going against the reasoning behind the modding phase of beatmaps, as i said problems like these should be addressed during the modding phase of the beatmap.

And before you bring colour blind people into the equation, take in mind that even colour blind people can distinguish dark from light, so as long as colours contrast there shouldnt be a problem at all.

@Sakura: Probably. i'm one of the "Art More Mappers', a quite strong one among them. i don't dare to turn it off, i already have enough flames.

@mm201:The "quality control" is still a way, to let players feel better when they playing. If we can reach the final point in another way, those middlepoints could be dropped for sure.

Edit: @Sakura: do you even bother to read through the thread then start to speak? thanks.
Give me a clear reason why you against it, not saying "i'm right, i'm always right" again and again.

NatsumeRin wrote:

If you are a mapper and put gameplay the first place, you SHOULD let players decide the combo color, since you can't know them better than themselves. They will have more fun (at least, equal fun), with their own custom colors.

If you are a player at the point between Art and Gameplay, you may want to enjoy the map sometimes, while get a nice score at another time. and with the new feature it's easily to change.

If you are a mapper and think Art is more important, you will be happy (not that happy... happier maybe) to know your map will be played as your wish at least once, instead of the current situation: they will be deleted once the are extract from .osz file to a folder.

You missed my point. I was considering a player who feels bad because they need to turn off map colours. They don't want to be forced to turn things off just to be able to play. It makes them feel bad. This attitude may be a bit unreasonable, but so is expecting to be allowed to use any and all colours of your choosing.

I also don't exactly understand why you want to use low-contrast colours so much.

Building on your chart, let's consider:

The connecting lines show what kinds of maps different mappers will create, and what kinds of maps different players will enjoy.
Balanced mappers can create maps approachable to both ArtMore and GameplayMore players. Likewise, balanced players will be able to approach most kinds of maps. (In reality, there are way more variables than this, but it provides the basics.)

The message here? Everyone should strive for balance! If mappers are mapping for the community, and not for themselves, they'll try to make maps that strike a balance between art and gameplay to maximize the enjoyment to the widest audience. (inb4mainstreamfaggotry)

NatsumeRin wrote:

Stuff too big to quote entirely

I'm not saying im always right, all im telling you is to not fix what's not broken.

If a fix is needed is with the modders themselves for letting things like these slip by, the game is not what is broken there's no need to change the game at all.

i think i get your point now.... but, that in fact explains why the maps are becoming similar now, which leads to another question: do you think it would be better if all map becomes similar? (now it's probably a trend, mainstreamftw) I just can't agree with that. (btw, this model is really like the one used in political science, but it's not similar because balance is probably not the best answer here.)

Everyone should strive for balance! Yeah, if they treat "how will the community judge my map" more than "how i feel about the map myself"... It doesn't make much sense imo. If just few styles left, osu must be less interesting then. Not like in political science, in which balance leads to "safe".

For the combo color thing, i guess we just have really different value about aesthetic.

Edit: @Sakura: you're repeating your point again now. i'll reply to you when you could read my point and give your idea to it. (I already comment about what's wrong with your point enough i think)

btw, "there's no need to change the game at all." <<It's just silly.

So you say that all maps will be the same? ok let's assume your idea gets accepted, either 1) mappers dont let players choose their colours, which will lead us to this same point, and we did nothing or 2) mappers will let the players choose their colours so they will play every map with the same colours, which makes maps EVEN MORE similar.

As far as efficiency goes, i'd rather see efficiency in the modding process increased, than removing aspects of the modding just because you think modders are incapable of doing their job right since apparently ppl can tell black colours on a black background, or blue colours on a blue background and say they are fine because their appreciation of colours is different.

Basically, and as I hinted at with my inb4, it boils down to the mainstream art debate. Artists don't want their creative visions tainted by the wants of others. It's your right. But may I reiterate that not every beatmap needs to be ranked. People are welcome to upload their maps (here or elsewhere) and link to them without aiming for ranking. Beatmap approval is basically just a stamp that says "this map should have some level of appeal and playability to the majority of players." Also, why do you want your maps ranked other than to draw attention to them?

You could also provide both a toned down version of a map, suitable for ranking, and a version, linked to in the thread, which is more close to your original intentions.

Again, ranking guidelines themselves are compromises between mappers and players.

Sakura Hana wrote:

So you say that all maps will be the same? ok let's assume your idea gets accepted, either 1) mappers dont let players choose their colours, which will lead us to this same point, and we did nothing or 2) mappers will let the players choose their colours so they will play every map with the same colours, which makes maps EVEN MORE similar.

It's "map becoming similar" or "it plays more similar"? The former, is not likely to happen if we have more features encouraging them to develop in a various way (like this one!). The Latter, isn't it what you guys wanted?

@mm201: About to agree here, but the fact is still mappers (even the guys most like artist) still want their map to be ranked. It's not a bad thing to see such maps being ranked if it doesn't go too far. After all, "artist" is not a absolute meaning, everyone has his "artist" characteristic and some "society".

Not at all =/

I respect every mappers' mapping style, and i love to see different styles throughout the modding process, the fact that hitcircles blend with the background entirely relies on the choice of background by the mapper and their combo colour choice, i dont see how asking the mapper to use something different that they also like is restricting them or forcing them to map one way or another

I would hope that a map could stand out by the merit of its mapping, not the frills tacked on like skinning and colours.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Not at all =/

I respect every mappers' mapping style, and i love to see different styles throughout the modding process, the fact that hitcircles blend with the background entirely relies on the choice of background by the mapper and their combo colour choice, i dont see how asking the mapper to use something different that they also like is restricting them or forcing them to map one way or another

Sometimes the solution is the ONLY one. But you probably won't know. In such situations, i could just hope the modder won't force anything to the mapper, it's another topic anyway.

mm201 wrote:

I would hope that a map could stand out by the merit of its mapping, not the frills tacked on like skinning and colours.

True. This is just a small part (which could improve imo), but i really wonder why some MAT/BAT rushed in and think it's so important lol.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Sakura Hana wrote:

Not at all =/

I respect every mappers' mapping style, and i love to see different styles throughout the modding process, the fact that hitcircles blend with the background entirely relies on the choice of background by the mapper and their combo colour choice, i dont see how asking the mapper to use something different that they also like is restricting them or forcing them to map one way or another

Sometimes the solution is the ONLY one. But you probably won't know. In such situations, i could just hope the modder won't force anything to the mapper, it's another topic anyway.

If it comes to that i'd be happy to give suggestions that work to the mapper until the mapper is happy

NatsumeRin wrote:

Sometimes the solution is the ONLY one. But you probably won't know. In such situations, i could just hope the modder won't force anything to the mapper, it's another topic anyway.

It's like telling a poem in Spanish to someone who only speaks Japanese. They aren't going to get it. Players aren't going to understand your artistic expression if they can hardly see your map.

I haven't read the whole thread since it's damn long but I think this is absolutely necessary if osz2 is ever gonna be implemented, since there are TONS OF MAPS (even a lot from the thread's creator) that are just very VERY hard to read due to the BG being the same damn color than lots of hits.

Ok wait a second. What's the idea of "maps" to begin with? You make a map and people PLAYS them, and from my pov which is the one from a player who knows NOTHING about mapping, is that players should enjoy a map instead of dealing with stuff they don't like. That's why we actually play, to enjoy the whole thing, now, what's so fun of playing a map with grey hitcircles, grey background, kiai 24/7, flashy SB so you can't see a shit, etc? Nothing. Some people MAY actually like it (I'm pretty sure they're just a few since I've got many friends playing this and most of them if not all rage when playing a retardskinned map where you can't see a thing, and I'm talking about CASUAL players...), but anyways, the best idea would be to let each player to play each map however they want, I don't care if the mapper wanted to "make some artistic map", because I'm not interested in how the map looks but how thet map plays, as well as there is some other people who is interested in the opposite thing, or maybe in both, but in the end by not letting everyone play their way you just get people to not enjoy the game.

Inb4 bad english ftw ye.

And just so you get it guys, nobody plays any "hard" or "fun" map with BG/Skin/SB/Video, whenever I start playing something and like it the first thing I do (if I haven't already) is delete every damn element from the map so I can enjoy it, not that nobody cares but I will and lots of players will keep deleting everything so they can play with black/grey/whatever BG and their own skin (some even delete hitsounds I'm sure).

Wishy22: Old maps that can be considered hard to read due to it, can be easily force updated to change the combo colours, what we need to do is prevent those things from now on...

-- Spanish version just in case / Version en español por si acaso ----

Wishy22: Los mapas viejos que pueden ser considerados dificiles de leer debido a los colores, pueden ser facilmente forzados a hacer update para cambiar los colores, lo que necesitamos hacer es prevenir que esas cosas ocurran de ahora en adelante.

updated? let's assume only 5% of the maps use "blending" colors, another 5% have other visual elements makes people "uncomfortable", you need to fix 500 maps then. Why don't you even think about another way? just to show your power hah?

Edit: this is kinda harsh, but i think you should stop and think, not going as a tail of all "rules"

Edit2: and let's assume 10% of those maps use this for certain art effects and did good. You break 50 good maps then. Great job lady.

NatsumeRin wrote:

updated? let's assume only 5% of the maps use "blending" colors, another 5% have other visual elements makes people "uncomfortable", you need to fix 500 maps then. Why don't you even think about another way? just to show your power hah?

Edit: this is kinda harsh, but i think you should stop and think, not going as a tail of all "rules"

Edit2: and let's assume 10% of those maps use this for certain art effects and did good. You break 50 good maps then. Great job lady.

Not like your idea would fix it either you know, im not showing any power, im just showing my opinion on the matter

WHY CAN'T IT FIX?

oh damn, i guess i have explained it long enough and well enough?

NatsumeRin wrote:

WHY CAN'T IT FIX?

oh damn, i guess i have explained it long enough and well enough?

Yeah. If I were you I'd have already stopped.

NatsumeRin wrote:

WHY CAN'T IT FIX?

oh damn, i guess i have explained it long enough and well enough?

Because you've already lost the hopes in the modding process, this feature request is proof enough of it, you dont trust the modding process anymore, so you want to let the players do what they want.
With time you'll probably start to make more feature requests to let players disable other gameplay elements as well, and who knows where it will lead to.
If you had a little bit of faith and hope in the modding process you wouldn't need to create a feature request like this on the basis that "blending colours is subjective", instead you should instead, be helping other maps to not allow colours to blend, if you become stubborn and say that making the colours match the colours in your map is art, then that's you, but you're not helping the players that way...

In the end, all you want is for you to be able to do what you want with the colours with no one to yell at you, now tell me if im wrong?.


No matter what happens i'll never lose hope on the mappers, i think we can all come to a day when we dont even need to be telling anyone a rule for mappers to make intuitive and fun to play maps, that dont disturb players at all either, that have fair gameplay elements, that dont TRY to trip the players on purpose, and for that reason i'll continue to mod, to help the mappers out there make some fair maps that players dont need to complain about.

If you want to continue with this request i wont stop you, but now i already know how you think.

Edit: You want to solve a problem? solve a problem by its root <--- there's your answer

i'm sorry, i just saw this post for several secs, and i think there's no answer to my question.

Like all your posts in this thread before. you're trying to repeat your "modding process ftw" again and again. YOU'RE ONE OF THOSE WHO LOVE TO FORCE MAPPERS DON'T YOU.

Also of course i want the right "no modders could force me to do anything except i'm against a certain, objective rule", i don't need you to yell at me just like Cookiezi don't need you to teach him how to play osu.

You used many text walls but still don't want to answer any question, i just fucking laughed.

NatsumeRin wrote:

i'm sorry, i just saw this post for several secs, and i think there's no answer to my question.

Your question is, "WHY WON'T IT FIX?" from what I can tell. She does answer it but didn't make that answer clear.

Her answer is that it won't fix the actual problem; the actual problem is that mappers choose retarded combo colors at times. All this is is a band-aid. You can't argue otherwise - it does not stop mappers from choosing retarded combo colors. It gives players a workaround, but does not fix the actual problem. A player should not have to do the mapper's work for them - that is her viewpoint.

As far as "forcing mappers" goes, her point is simply that mappers do some pretty dumb shit sometimes - I am extremely guilty of t-

...oh this is getting nowhere, let's just lock this thread already so we don't have to deal with this nonsense from the both of you. Neither of you are understanding each other, and both have valid viewpoints on the matter. Let's just end this nonsense; combo colors are the least time-consuming part of making a beatmap - so who gives a fuck? - and really, you guys will argue until this is locked no matter what. Let's just end this and wait for what the devs decide on.

I'm going to be blunt about this matter..... first off, the mapper needs to properly figure out what colors can safely work with the map. I wouldn't give two s***s about the color "perfectly matching the map" if it blends with the background and elements. It SHOULD be fixed, not just wait to complain and b**** about it AFTER the map is ranked. Small details like these get ignored until people say something later which is something I really hate honestly. If you're blinded by how "cool" the map looks and then figure out later after 100 or so plays that something is off, you're only fooling yourself.

If you really want to prevent things like this, then MOD SOME MAPS and stop waiting for someone else to say something for you. Also for the mappers, trying to rush the layout of the map is not cool. Yes, it's nice to find related combo colors for the background, but not in such a way that disappears with other like-colors from the video and background. DON'T IGNORE THOSE SUGGESTIONS. Changing the combo colors takes only a few minutes and is not a life or death matter.

Last..... NatsumeRin, I only see you trolling at this point and failing to keep a logical debate for the request. Tone down the attitude and get your head out of your ass. You mod maps as well and should be able to HELP prevent these kind of things, not let them happen.

NatsumeRin wrote:

i'm sorry, i just saw this post for several secs, and i think there's no answer to my question.

Like all your posts in this thread before. you're trying to repeat your "modding process ftw" again and again. YOU'RE ONE OF THOSE WHO LOVE TO FORCE MAPPERS DON'T YOU.

NatsumeRin, modding is one of the most important things in the community so there's nothing wrong with saying "moddingftw". Also, you're a modder so you should know that the only time when a modder enforces something is when there is unrankable stuff in the map. (Like blending colours)

Also of course i want the right "no modders could force me to do anything except i'm against a certain, objective rule"

This why the new rules/guidelines are being made. Sorry, but you can't do whatever you want. (Please don't start discussing this here)

Just making some points clear, you may continue with your pointless arguing.

combo colors are the least time-consuming part of making a beatmap - so who gives a fuck?

so who gives a fuck

I do, exotic colors are the reason i need to replace backgrounds. monochrome as always worked the best for me and thats why i use a gray bg.

I see how this could work. I don't quite see any relevance in Sakura's post. I don't see any distrust in the modding process. Seems like all Sakura is saying, as usually, it's that all mappers try to trip up players on purpose aka it's always the mappers fault.

Anyway. You have my support because what maybe considered distinguishable will not be the same for everyone. Like stated earlier, the player should be required to play the map first before being able to change the colors. Perhaps an option that appears that is similar to the combo color option for tag in multiplayer?

Also sometimes the video and the background maybe related but may not have the same color scheme.

@whyme: I know how you ended up in this thread.

Now, let's get back on track

Another thing..... if it comes down to the point the players have to change the combocolors, then something is REALLY wrong.

whymeman wrote:

Another thing..... if it comes down to the point the players have to change the combocolors, then something is REALLY wrong.

Umm, seems like in the "new" rules you modders are trying to cater to all types of players. What if a small group of players are colorblind. Are you planning on alienating them? Or you might have another of group people who might be impaired some other way

whymeman wrote:

Another thing..... if it comes down to the point the players have to change the combocolors, then something is REALLY wrong.

True.

But if some of the players are willing to change it for better gameplay experience, nothing wrong with it. It's where the feature stands. As i know, Sakura is trying to emphesis "you should be able to find a combo color fit everyone, not let them choose", which is impossible.

Back to logical parts:

1.What's wrong with "make all players happy"? Nothing wrong i guess.
2.Devide "players" to "players", "mappers", "modders".
3.I'm using this again (3rd time!), i hope the guys who are against my request could really understand it, then give your point.
4.Quoting this again (3rd time) to make it more clear.

Questions:
1.Now do you think this feature could benefit most of the community?
2.If yes, what's wrong with it?
3.If no, please answer me why?


Edit: Why i post the trolling thread is Sakura seems don't want to discuss, she just repeat again and again to make irrelevant posts. Now, statements here, questions here, discuss.

@whyme: i won't call that a debate, since Sakura's posts are just like a recorder and i don't know how to debate with a recorder, then i lost my patience. It's probably my fault, but it's Sakura's problem to bring those meaningless thing to a feature request thread, make it clear.

@Ekaru: You mean a random guy jumped in a thread, post irrelevant things, which lead to a debate (near flame), and close a meaningful topic because of that? You must be kidding me.

Just because you feel the posts are "irrelevant" doesn't mean you have the right to be an ass against someone. Trolling will also make your own post irrelevant as well.

Also, to "divide" the people into Players | Mappers | Modders is stupid. A person can be all three and be able to use their minds more to apply common sense / logical thinking on what is proper for the map, not what they feel is right because being right by opinion could be wrong in truth.

@ ouranhshc: That.... is a poor concept on trying to make a point. Colorblind or not, the combocolors should be set to a proper hue that does not blend with the map. Even if the person IS color blind, the hue level in black and white scale still implies the same in a way but only with different levels of brightness based on two colors. And, even with the hue adjustment, HOW is someone going to actually play not being able to see the colors properly? Might as well put a blank black or white background with opposite combocolors.

still, find it funny how everything is always the mappers fault

To make it clear:

1.We're discussing a new way to solve combo color problems, include the problems may happen in the future, and the problems happened in the past.

2.We should discuss about if it's useful, if it's better than the way we used before.

3.If not, you should make your point about why, also if could, try think some way to improve the feature or current system.

4.Let's discuss or debate based on those things.

ouranhshc wrote:

still, find it funny how everything is always the mappers fault

Only from your insight. When serious problems show up on the map, it also becomes the modder's fault for not finding the issue or ignoring it and allowing it through. But in reality EVERYONE takes the blame for the serious *flaws* on the map.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Wishy22: Old maps that can be considered hard to read due to it, can be easily force updated to change the combo colours, what we need to do is prevent those things from now on....

Nah maps with hitcircles bending with BG will still get ranked, we all know that kind of stuff happens and you ain't gonna go unranking pretty much every map that gets ranked because some people can't play them properly. Plus nobody's gonna go back and check 6000 beatmaps (when most of them are crap and barely played at all) to see if they are hard to read due to hitcolors, and again you need more than one guy checking out all of them since you need several povs since if you get some people saying it's hard to read that's good enough to say it can actually be hard to read for some players, which is bad and would require an update. The fastest way to deal with this is just letting every player play like they want.

Btw so you guys see how serious modding/ranking process actually is, a map with a guy masturbating in it's video got ranked I mean LOL, and sometimes it takes MONTHS until someone notices there is a SUPER HYPER UNRANKABLE SLIDER or a hidden hit or any kind of crap, the BEST thing you can ALWAYS do is apply new features that avoid a possible human error, with each user being able to choose to play with custom colors (and of course having the option to play with the map's one) you avoid ANY TYPE OF POSSIBLE ISSUE with this thing, which I think it's the best. Of course I may agree with the map having to be played AT LEAST ONCE for you being able to change some stuff like hitcolor and shit.

Of course it is different for everyoen because not everyone uses the same skin. Some people have transparent hitcircles, etc.
The only solution is to use a hitcircleoverlay that overlays on top of the hitcircle to get the desired color.

I don't believe in "quick fixes" to address this issue. The main thing is that if more and more maps are being seen with blending combocolors, then that would show signs of a weakening modding process. This especially becomes true and shows more as some mappers tend to rush to get their maps ranked than properly modded. But honestly, my thoughts on this is to combat the issue with trying to mod the maps (even right now) and check the combocolors for this kind of simple problem. Seriously, the mapper should NOT have trouble doing a 10 minute fix.

And also, demanding for requests do not help if you don't ask yourself the questions the feature will have to go through to know if it really can go through or not.

Wishy22 wrote:

with each user being able to choose to play with custom colors (and of course having the option to play with the map's one) you avoid ANY TYPE OF POSSIBLE ISSUE with this thing, which I think it's the best. Of course I may agree with the map having to be played AT LEAST ONCE for you being able to change some stuff like hitcolor and shit.

@whyme:If we spend 10mins on every map it's just a waste of time, also it doesn't help the old maps to become better.

@All: We put players first place, shall we?

I'd just be happy if from here on out, mappers would take this problem into consideration and change the colors to make them stand out more from the story board...which is the ideal and easy solution. I know everyone has played a map and thought to themselves "A black background with black hitcircles??? Really??".

I get people are trying to carry the theme of the music to the background and hitcircles, but it shouldn't be at the cost of making your map hard to read... making it a strain on the players eyes and in the end making the user not want to play your map. For now, atleast you can change the background to something else, but when osz2 comes out...we're not going to have that option anymore which really bothers me.

Mappers before players i guess. Who are the players anyways, they dont matter

If 10 minutes of effort is a "waste of time" then that's just being lazy. Also, if the mapper was thinking about the players more, then there wouldn't be a need for a topic like this....

whymeman wrote:

If 10 minutes of effort is a "waste of time" then that's just being lazy. Also, if the mapper was thinking about the players more, then there wouldn't be a need for a topic like this....

let's think for both of them... thanks.

Apologies, I oversimplify everything.

NatsumeRin wrote:

1.We're discussing a new way to solve combo color problems, include the problems may happen in the future, and the problems happened in the past.

Let's look at this with a logical approach:
Why are similar combo colors blending into the background a problem?
Because it makes it difficult to read and find out when and where the next note is
Why is not knowing when and where the next note is a problem?
Because it is not fun. If something isn't fun, you're not going to do it.

There are many other things which make the map difficult to read:
High AR, stacking notes, using illogical spacing, putting notes under other objects. The difference between hiding a note in the background color and underneath a slider, to me, is negligible. Allowing players to choose their colors will not solve the problem.

NatsumeRin wrote:

2.We should discuss about if it's useful, if it's better than the way we used before.

Undoubtedly. I would use it the same way I use the current skin deletion exploit. Only on maps which I think need it. But everyone will think it's useful. The question is if they want it. Balancing art and gameplay is difficult at times, and many people would rather be artistic and ostracize 10% of the players to protect their artwork from being completely ignored/wasted.

NatsumeRin wrote:

3.If not, you should make your point about why, also if could, try think some way to improve the feature or current system.

Having the player decide everything about a beatmap except for the timing window, hp drain, circle size, and note placement is IMO the ideal situation which has been harshly denied in the past. I've said before I'm amazed we have a cursor toggle. I would go so far as to say customization should be all or nothing, and I wouldn't complain if we lost the cursor toggle.

ziin wrote:

There are many other things which make the map difficult to read:
High AR, stacking notes, using illogical spacing, putting notes under other objects. The difference between hiding a note in the background color and underneath a slider, to me, is negligible. Allowing players to choose their colors will not solve the problem.

What you said is true except for the last sentence, which should be "It can solve part of the problem."

ziin wrote:

Undoubtedly. I would use it the same way I use the current skin deletion exploit. Only on maps which I think need it. But everyone will think it's useful. The question is if they want it. Balancing art and gameplay is difficult at times, and many people would rather be artistic and ostracize 10% of the players to protect their artwork from being completely ignored/wasted.

We could agree on "it's useful". Then the problem becomes the balance of Art and Gameplay. With thie feature i think we could let people choose what they want more, so no one will be really ignored/wasted. Not like current system, if a mapper insist his "art", a nuke is probably waiting for him.

ziin wrote:

Having the player decide everything about a beatmap except for the timing window, hp drain, circle size, and note placement is IMO the ideal situation which has been harshly denied in the past.

Don't know much but i could understand that.

ziin wrote:

I've said before I'm amazed we have a cursor toggle. I would go so far as to say customization should be all or nothing, and I wouldn't complain if we lost the cursor toggle.

Hehe let it be all then. If the reason is good enough. As a mapper i'd like to use this period to proteck myself, how ridiculous...

I know you're tired of me, but as i've said before, the problem is within the modding process, you should solve a problem by it's root, or do you give a coughing medicine to someone with a flu?

If you dont attack the problem by it's root and just keep adding band-aids the problem will never cease to exist, letting players control the colours wont solve the problem within the modding phase of the beatmaps.

I really hope you get it this time, coz i'm really getting tired of posting here

Edit: yay for using the same words as Ekaru

Your point is modding process should solve all the things, but it's just ideal. Because you can't expect several people to come up with an idea that ALL people could enjoy. So why not let them decide how to enjoy?

I said it again here now. And back to topic, quote again:

Wishy22 wrote:

with each user being able to choose to play with custom colors (and of course having the option to play with the map's one) you avoid ANY TYPE OF POSSIBLE ISSUE with this thing, which I think it's the best. Of course I may agree with the map having to be played AT LEAST ONCE for you being able to change some stuff like hitcolor and shit.

Don't worry about the modding process, we fix the things forever.

Edit: And for the old maps, your solution is "fix them one by one", which costs much more than just adding a new feature. Am i wrong with it. Also, combo color thing is in .osu files and any change of .osu file will lead to a update, which give many troubles to players.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Your point is modding process should solve all the things, but it's just ideal. Because you can't expect several people to come up with an idea that ALL people could enjoy. So why not let them decide how to enjoy?

Actually i can: viewforum.php?f=80

Like I said modding is not a flawless process and errors always slip by.
It's utopia to imagine ALL ERRORS will be caught during the modding process and I hardly doubt new rules/guidelines are going to stop any more problem from arising in the future.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Actually i can: viewforum.php?f=80

Irrelevant post again, also:
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=57060
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=57292

I just loled. Sorry, i can't expect discussions like this will end up with a nice idea. Before the poll, i guess mm201 didn't think about a new feature to indicate slider speed change will be needed. And hey the discussion is still heated. Why do you even bother to discuss it, lol. Assume something and force it to players/mappers, do you think you should teach Cookiezi how to read slider speed change now?


Side note: How could an update with minor changes hurt the players?

This is a plot line shows the playcounts/day in one of my map. The place with a read square is when i asked LuigiHann to hax submit the video, which leads to an update. We can know from this line that players get confused when they need to update a ranked map.

Sakura Hana wrote:

I know you're tired of me, but as i've said before, the problem is within the modding process, you should solve a problem by it's root, or do you give a coughing medicine to someone with a flu?

If you dont attack the problem by it's root and just keep adding band-aids the problem will never cease to exist, letting players control the colours wont solve the problem within the modding phase of the beatmaps.

I really hope you get it this time, coz i'm really getting tired of posting here

Edit: yay for using the same words as Ekaru

^This for the love of (insert thing you love here)

/end thread

Seriously, there's NOTHING to debate about. It's a problem and this is the solution. Why this isn't a mapping rule already, I can't grasp.

Mapping rules should be ever changing and evolving to improve the quality of game play. If mappers truly want to make the best possible maps for Osu, I don't think this is too much to ask, is it?

Xact wrote:

Seriously, there's NOTHING to debate about. It's a problem and this is the solution. Why this isn't a mapping rule already, I can't grasp.

Why all maps are not the same already, I can't grasp.

Hey, if you want to discuss, use your brain, follow the things i mentioned, or you could go out of this thread.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Xact wrote:

Seriously, there's NOTHING to debate about. It's a problem and this is the solution. Why this isn't a mapping rule already, I can't grasp.

Why all maps are not the same already, I can't grasp.

Hey, if you want to discuss, use your brain, follow the things i mentioned, or you could go out of this thread.

There's nothing to discuss. Use your brain.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Xact wrote:

Seriously, there's NOTHING to debate about. It's a problem and this is the solution. Why this isn't a mapping rule already, I can't grasp.

Hey, if you want to discuss, use your brain, follow the things i mentioned, or you could go out of this thread.

You could stop being aggresive towards the players you're supposedly defending you know, why do we have to follow YOUR logic, when it's flawed?
Now who's imposing things on who? =O

Sakura Hana wrote:

You could stop being aggresive towards the players you're supposedly defending you know, why do we have to follow YOUR logic, when it's flawed?
Now who's imposing things on who? =O

umm, yours has major flaws too

LOGIC is ONLY ONE, nothing is my logic or your logic.

I said: If it benefits some players, do no harm to others, it's a good thing.
Sakura said: it should be in the modding process.

I said: This could solve the problem, because...
Sakura said: it should be in the modding process.

I said: Your idea can't solve all the problems and will cost too much to fix old maps.
Sakura said: it should be in the modding process.


who's imposing on who? nice question!

ouranhshc wrote:

Sakura Hana wrote:

You could stop being aggresive towards the players you're supposedly defending you know, why do we have to follow YOUR logic, when it's flawed?
Now who's imposing things on who? =O

umm, yours has major flaws too

If I see anymore trolling, i'm locking down this topic.

whymeman wrote:

If I see anymore trolling, i'm locking down this topic.

If the root of the reason is a guy jumped in with non-logical and irrelevant words, repeat it again and again, he/she already hurts the owner of the thread and do no useful things to the topic. I think you should ban this guy instead of lock the thread.

NatsumeRin wrote:

LOGIC is ONLY ONE, nothing is my logic or your logic.

I said: If it benefits some players, do no harm to others, it's a good thing.
Sakura said: it should be in the modding process.

I said: This could solve the problem, because...
Sakura said: it should be in the modding process.

I said: Your idea can't solve all the problems and will cost too much to fix old maps.
Sakura said: it should be in the modding process.


who's imposing on who? nice question!

It can't fix old maps naturally, but it can keep it from happening from here on out...which is what he's implying by "It should be in the modding process". In otherwords, stopping the problem like Sakura said earlier, "At the root of the problem"...

NatsumeRin wrote:

whymeman wrote:

If I see anymore trolling, i'm locking down this topic.

If the root of the reason is a guy jumped in with non-logical and irrelevant words, repeat it again and again, he/she already hurts the owner of the thread and do no useful things to the topic. I think you should ban this guy instead of lock the thread.

Okay, this has already gone far enough with this shitstorm of the "he said, she said" bullcrap just because you have those that don't agree with you. And now you're asking to BAN this person from posting because of it? That is NOT how you debate and explain your point of views on how you see the issue. If you want to make a point, don't personally attack people and keep an open mind.

@ ouranhshc: Keep trolling in the forums and you'll end up having some bad days. Don't push your luck.

lets not be too hasty here - there's a lot of valuable content and opinions in this thread, we just need to sit down for a moment and sort them out.

allowing players to change combo colours themselves in and of itself is not nessecarily a drastic change to the artistic metric of modding or beatmapping in the first place - it is simply allowing the players to customize a pretty integral gameplay element to their own tastes for whatever purpose, a feature which is innately something desirable to have.

on the flipside though, it is very true that the regulation of combo colours should not be required in the first place as it should be encompassed largely by the modding process, which it usually is. however, the modding process does not account for the individual and only accounts for the majority - that is, to make the map accessible to the lowest common denominator whilst still striking balance with the mapper's individual design for the map and the required elements for ranking set by the rules and guidelines.

adding a feature like this does not undermine the modding process. it does not innately harm anything. it does not provide ample leeway for mappers to abuse a nuance in the system to be more liberal with their design choices - it simply empowers the player to address a map in a way that they feel comfortable, providing fallback for the players who do not lie within the lowest common denominator and for whatever reason, enjoy the capacity to modify maps to their own individual tastes as they please.

i am unlocking this because i feel that this debate needs to continue like it did from page 8 - no more of this silly shit. this is a very conducive discussion and i think that we may reach an accord very soon if people continue discussing this civilly and with restraint.

soo, would the player be able to choose from all the colors or just a specific set of colors

EDIT2: fixing typo (again)

Statement again about the benifit of the new feature:

1. You could check the main idea in the top of the thread, check the label and extra points.

2. The new feature could not only prevent the coming problems in the future, it could also fix all combo color problems happened in old maps in a second. Because players could change them to sth not "blending" to them unless they just think the original color is comfortable enough to play. We could do this instead of fixing old maps one by one (let's say, 10% of the ranked maps have the problem, then 500 is the number to fix, and very obvious no one would like to do it)

3. This feature will prevent any "slip by" examples in modding process from the very beginning. Because it would be no longer a problem in modding. It's not "i belive in modding process or not", it's just really easy to know, compared to a period that "may cause problems", use a new way to jump it and solve is more efficiency and yeah, safer.

4. Back to the very beginning, even you can't benefit any from this feature, it won't hurt you as well. Because you still have the right to keep all things as original.



Edit: if you just come in with random or irrelevant words, better to be out, thanks.

i'm really curious about the implementation ( i hope i spelled that right ) of it. This wouldn't mess with the .osu or the skin.ini right?

ouranhshc wrote:

i'm really curious about the implementation ( i hope i spelled that right ) of it.

Get a button out of the maps, let's say, "set your own combo colors". But your own combo colors won't work during the first play of a map, it will be only enabled after you finished the map/get a score on the map once.

Yeah... that would leads to a player use same combo color to play all maps, but i don't see a disadvantage of this if he thinks that's the best way for him.

Edit2: I think the re-lock was a bug. I've unlocked the topic again. (But any more flaming and it's gone.)

I thought for sure this thread was done at page 7. This is flamey and if discussion doesn't go anywhere, I'm going to have to lock it.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Before the poll, i guess mm201 didn't think about a new feature to indicate slider speed change will be needed.

For what it's worth, I still don't. It's poor mapping design to use speed changes which will confuse the player.
Players in that poll who said they don't read ticks also said they didn't have problems with speed changes anyway.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Why all maps are not the same already, I can't grasp.

Difference for the sake of difference is a folly. You keep forgetting that this is a game first, art project distant second. Variety exists only to draw player interest.

Restrictions are part of the game. Always will be. You can't make moving circles, or circles made of cheese, or circles that eat the cursor when you click them, or circles that format C:\. This is a game. It has rules. Some of these rules don't come from within, but from the modding process. Visibility of objects is one of them.

Information updated in the main thread.

nice idea, I have to remove/replace the BG of some maps in which the color picking is really bad for my eyes.

I don't see any negative outcomings, if a simple "Always use skin combo colours" checkbox would be added to the skin selection. We can change them in the skin.ini right now, if we want
It will only help gameplay, when some colours blend almost totally with BG.
I think, I would personally use it only at times I have problems with a certain map that has problem with blending colours (an certain old one for example).

also for the implementation. maybe make it Map specific instead of where its one set for everything. I doubt that the same set of colors would work for everything. Might make things a little tedious though

nvm

Or we could have a checkbox, "eccentric, osuplaying shut-in mode," that disables anything map-specific.

I'd like to expand on SapphireGhost's idea, if that's allright.

I recall in an earlier comment, someone mentioned about allowing a "base" of colours that people could select from within any given mapset.

What I'd like to propose is this:

Allow Mappers to add an Alternate set of 'Safe' colours in a beatmap. This would cater for those who dislike/can't see the first set correctly. Here's a mockup of how it could work. I'm no interface designer, but I'm just throwing it out there. Naturally in a given set you wouldn't be using the one shade of blue Like I did.

I think that the player themselves should be allowed to set the 'safe' colors, because otherwise the mapper might end up picking colors that the player doesn't like either. Or maybe not.

Well, hey. That's another option. I myself do not particularly agree with complete control being handed over to the players, however I don't see a reason why we shouldn't just have the second set to default osu! combo colours (red, orange, green, blue).

If there are any objections to that I'd suggest trying Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan!, Elite Beat Agents and Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan! 2 again.

whymeman wrote:

If 10 minutes of effort is a "waste of time" then that's just being lazy. Also, if the mapper was thinking about the players more, then there wouldn't be a need for a topic like this....

You don't understand that it's not even 10 minutes, since each player is unique and when most players may have no problem with your hitcolors, some will always do, and then again by letting users choose hitcolors you avoid any kind of possible problem + you fix every old ranked map.

I can't believe this is even discussed...

If this is ever implemented:

Will it harm anyone? No.
Will it help "fixing" TONS of maps? Yes.
Will it help some modding issues? Yes, when you're a random mapper pretty much nobody downloads your maps or even know them until they get ranked (if they ever do), and then since many mappers/mods are not actually players, they fail to recognise potential issues in many maps, leading to the map being bad for stuff like hitcolors. Again, if humans were perfect we wouldn't need this, but there wil ALWAYS be errors when modding, and with this you can avoid some maps getting unranked just because one guy failed to notice black hits are hard to play with dark backgrounds.
Will it make some players happier since they gonna be able to play the way they want? Yes.
Are mappers gonna go "I MAD I WANT MY COLORS"? Some will do, which is why you can go do your thing of "well you got to play the map once with the whole SB/BG/hitcolors/hitsounds/etc.

Just ask yourself those questions and find your own answer, you'll eventually notice how there is no real reason to say "no" to this feature.

Wishy22 wrote:

If this is ever implemented:

Will it harm anyone? No. yes, the mappers who want to protect their works of art
Will it help "fixing" TONS of maps? Yes. no, there's almost guaranteed another problem with it.

Just ask yourself those questions and find your own answer, you'll eventually notice how there is no real reason to say "no" to this feature. because then we'd have to let in a whole slew of customizations.

IMO novid an cursor force should be taken out.

Do you guys realize, this has always been availaible?

Mappers can choose to set combo colours to "Default" in the checkbox, which allows players to use the colors they have in their skin.ini of their preferred skin.

Edit: yay correcting my own typos

Sakura Hana wrote:

Do you guys realize, this has always been availaible?

Mappers can choose to set combo colours to "Default" in the checkbox, which allows players to use the colors they have in their skin.ini of their preferred skin.

Edit: yay correcting my own typos

But this means the mapper can't give a basic combocolor set to begin with.

SUPER RAGE FROM ARTY PEOPLE

Now that this topic is actually civil, I will now politely state my opinion on this (I do apologize for my outbreak earlier - very immature of me).

I support this. The way I see it, combo colors are the least important part of a beatmap; personally, the only time I actually notice the combo colors being different is when I can't see them or something neat is done with them (which is really, really rare). Heck, those are the only times I've seen combo colors actually commented on.

Sure, this is just a band-aid, but it's as good as you're going to get IMO. It's just impractical to make sure every map has easy-to-see combo colors when people have different eyes and monitor settings, making the task impossible from the get-go.

And really, this is much better than deleting the BG from a mapper's perspective, since BGs can actually set the tone for the map and is a much more significant part of the map overall. But the combo colors? Nah.

Once again voicing my support on this feature. I really like how someone put it this way (I remember reading it in this thread but can't find it so indirectly quoting it):

The modding process is supposed to render a map with optimal playability for the gaming community. However, this optimization works for the majority of the community at best, which means there will always be a group of players who are discontent with the current coloring of the map.

(And sorry, it is not up to you to choose which color is the most comfortable to play for some people, people have different tastes and hindrances you don't even know about. Also "those people who find the maps difficult should have voiced their discontent in the modding process" is unrealistical. You can't expect every player to check every pending map looking out for uncomfortable combo colors and voicing their disagreements.)

With the problem defined like this, ephemeral puts it quite clearly why this is not a bad solution:

Ephemeral wrote:

adding a feature like this does not undermine the modding process. it does not innately harm anything. it does not provide ample leeway for mappers to abuse a nuance in the system to be more liberal with their design choices - it simply empowers the player to address a map in a way that they feel comfortable, providing fallback for the players who do not lie within the lowest common denominator and for whatever reason, enjoy the capacity to modify maps to their own individual tastes as they please.

KRZY wrote:

Once again voicing my support on this feature. I really like how someone put it this way (I remember reading it in this thread but can't find it so indirectly quoting it):

The modding process is supposed to render a map with optimal playability for the gaming community. However, this optimization works for the majority of the community at best, which means there will always be a group of players who are discontent with the current coloring of the map.

(And sorry, it is not up to you to choose which color is the most comfortable to play for some people, people have different tastes and hindrances you don't even know about. Also "those people who find the maps difficult should have voiced their discontent in the modding process" is unrealistical. You can't expect every player to check every pending map looking out for uncomfortable combo colors and voicing their disagreements.)

With the problem defined like this, ephemeral puts it quite clearly why this is not a bad solution:

Ephemeral wrote:

adding a feature like this does not undermine the modding process. it does not innately harm anything. it does not provide ample leeway for mappers to abuse a nuance in the system to be more liberal with their design choices - it simply empowers the player to address a map in a way that they feel comfortable, providing fallback for the players who do not lie within the lowest common denominator and for whatever reason, enjoy the capacity to modify maps to their own individual tastes as they please.

I agree but this falls in the same category as disabling storyboards, skin elements, backgrounds, whatever. And we all know how it ended.

Metro wrote:

I agree but this falls in the same category as disabling storyboards, skin elements, backgrounds, whatever. And we all know how it ended.

Well hopefully, the same argument that is used to repel requests for those elements applies less to combo colors.

Well at least 'blending or not' is more subjective than I thought. I've seen several players deleting every (or some) components of the skin of the map and saying 'it's irritating', while some players never cares about it. (like me.) I guess existance of both kind of players itself states it's quite subjective.

At least extremely irritating ones can be excluded by modding, but modders and mappers can't always represent players of osu, and most of players play the map after it got ranked. Modding isn't omnipotence. (Don't misread the meaning, I'm not saying 'modding is nothing' or something. Modding definately make maps improved. I just wanted to say it can't solve every problems.)

Yeah, I think this request is worth to be discussed. (Though I'm avoiding to show my opinion directly cause some are annoyed with this discussion and I don't want to make them annoyed more since they are powerful.)

KRZY wrote:

Metro wrote:

I agree but this falls in the same category as disabling storyboards, skin elements, backgrounds, whatever. And we all know how it ended.

Well hopefully, the same argument that is used to repel requests for those elements applies less to combo colors.

No, it applies more since combo colours are much harder to screw up and involve much less work (virtually 0) the mapper won't want to part with.

Metro wrote:

I agree but this falls in the same category as disabling storyboards, skin elements, backgrounds, whatever. And we all know how it ended.

/thread

ziin wrote:

Metro wrote:

I agree but this falls in the same category as disabling storyboards, skin elements, backgrounds, whatever. And we all know how it ended.

/thread

1. That thread was about having a toggle for the disabling of SBs after 1 play. The reason it ended like that is because people were acting like little kids. Keep in mind that peppy was the one who made that thread in the first place; if people were slightly more reasonable about it and accepted the compromise, it probably would have ended differently.

2. I would not put combo colors in the same category as other beatmap elements.

Whether or not the approach circles blend in some cases depends on the person's monitor. For example, on this monitor light yellow blends in with white. But, on the monitor on the computer downstairs, I can tell apart light yellow and white easily. Other elements are not really affected that much by the monitor, so they are not in the same category.

It is impractical to test a ton of different kinds of monitors for every beatmap; in some cases it isn't that the mapper or MAT/BAT were careless, it's that they had top-notch monitors that make it easier to tell colors apart. So, I think this feature is necessary due to just how big of a difference the monitor can make (and believe me, I know this from experience).

Some people seems not to understand that some players don't give a crap for their art but they just want to play fun maps, while others will of course enjoy playing some artistic map even when they can't see a thing and play by instinct.

I am not going to play your impossible to see map, if I can't see a thing because hit colors = BG and I can't do anything about it I'm better off not playing the map since I am not interested at all in doing so, and I'm sure many people thinks the same way as me. By not giving players the right to change combo colors themselves you just will end up having less plays in your map than what you could've had (ofc when osz2 arrives).

This logic applies to pretty much everything, since someone is not going to do something because you want him to do it since you think he should enjoy it, nobody's doing something they don't like doing unless there's a reward for it, and that reward here could be being able to play with your own combo colors.

How about mappers use colors that contrast the backgound instead, or just checkbox "use default colors" so players can use the colors they want, but it is seriously sad how often ppl go dark on dark and light on light and dont wanna change.

This thread is as pointless as peppy's.

Best of luck NatsumeRin but I'm unsubscribing.

Sakura Hana wrote:

How about mappers use colors that contrast the backgound instead, or just checkbox "use default colors" so players can use the colors they want, but it is seriously sad how often ppl go dark on dark and light on light and dont wanna change.

It ends up with leaving some of the players unsatisfied, and the mapper can't really keep his will as well. We have discussed it.
Here's a better solution, if you don't agree, think a better one or point out why it's not as good as current one. hey.

Sakura Hana wrote:

How about mappers use colors that contrast the backgound instead, or just checkbox "use default colors" so players can use the colors they want, but it is seriously sad how often ppl go dark on dark and light on light and dont wanna change.

Because their maps look cooler that way and that's a fact, looks better but plays worse.

This thread is stuck on replay.

With the fun spoiler, you're able to do this

Just check the box, go to your skin.ini and pick your default combo colours. Works fantastically. You obviously have to play the difficulty first.