Mapsets are pieces of art, let the mappers use the combo colours they want and they must be played by the p--- oh wait, it disturbs players, since it blends with the background, since this is a game too, not just art.

Now you see why those rules and guidelines are needed, remember that this is a game, so you must compromise your art to make the game fairly playable to everyone, even if that means that you must change your combo colours on your map so they dont blend with the background.

My position still stands, this request is unnecessary, mappers have the right to get their maps played the way they intended them to be played. And it's the modders job to make sure the maps are playable by the players BEFORE they get ranked, if issues like this slip by, then there was a problem during the modding process of the beatmap that wasn't addressed, and the people involved should have pointed it out.

Instead of trying to change the colors for players, tell the mappers the blending colours during the modding process, so they can change it and it doesn't happen again.

Now you see why those rules and guidelines are needed, remember that this is a game, so you must compromise your art to make the game fairly playable to everyone, even if that means that you must change your combo colours on your map so they dont blend with the background.

After this feature added, it's still fairly playable to everyone. "You need to comprise to rules" ---- No, better to change this sentence to "You need to comprise to players". Because Rule is to serve players (don't tell me it's not.)

My position still stands, this request is unnecessary, mappers have the right to get their maps played the way they intended them to be played.

They could still have the right to "get their maps played the way they intended them to be played", based on SapphireGhost's suggestion, give mappers the right to decide whether it's optional or not.

NatsumeRin wrote:

After this feature added, it's still fairly playable to everyone. "You need to comprise to rules" ---- No, better to change this sentence to "You need to comprise to players". Because Rule is to serve players (don't tell me it's not.)

You're right, they are

NatsumeRin wrote:

They could still have the right to "get their maps played the way they intended them to be played", based on SapphireGhost's suggestion, give mappers the right to decide whether it's optional or not.

That still doesnt show a "need" for the toggle to be there in the first place, its completely unnecessary.

I think this will explain well enough.

Art More Mappers, and all the modders, will certainly benefit from this new feature.

the Gameplay More Players, have to play the map once to get to the option, which do little harm to them. But im pretty sure the whole mapper community would like to see this.

The advantages is really much more than disadvantages.

Edit: in fact there's more... such as:
If you are a mapper and put gameplay the first place, you SHOULD let players decide the combo color, since you can't know them better than themselves. They will have more fun (at least, equal fun), with their own custom colors.
If you are a player at the point between Art and Gameplay, you may want to enjoy the map sometimes, while get a nice score at another time. and with the new feature it's easily to change.
If you are a mapper and think Art is more important, you will be happy (not that happy... happier maybe) to know your map will be played as your wish at least once, instead of the current situation: they will be deleted once the are extract from .osz file to a folder.

opinions?

That still doesnt show a "need" for the toggle to be there in the first place, its completely unnecessary.

Not unnecessary for a lot of players.
Not in this case myself but what about players that are color blind?

Colorblind people are completely unnecessary.

I'm color blind and with some colors its like I'm playing certain maps on hidden because approaches blend in with backgrounds, etc Not to mention just bad color combo's and colors + backgrounds.

There's a point where game play needs to come before someone who wants their map to look pretty. Aesthetics should not come first. I'm not really sure why a mapper would get upset by changing the color scheme on combos and see no reason why we shouldn't be able to change them.

I understand some of these people spend many hours on their maps, that's no reason for them to spend only 5 minutes thinking about what skins/backgrounds to copy and paste into them and not be sure they don't interfere with the users experience of the game.

At the very least the combo colors should not clash with the backgrounds, should be mapper rule IMO.

Right now, there are more people that are gameplay oriented than mappers

We just need to accept the fact that mappers are the minority, but have more power since most of them have mod/admin powers

So we want to ask you kindly, because sometimes, players want to do a really good score, and 0 distraction would really, really help

I know most of the mappers don't play alot or don't try to rank double time songs/hardrock, but please just think about it once


Also : I knew a friend, which was colorblind also, this would REALLY REALLY help her to enjoy the game

I thank you for posting this suggestion Natsume. I think this would easily solve issues of BG blending as well as what Xact says about some users being colour blind.

Xact wrote:

At the very least the combo colors should not clash with the backgrounds, should be mapper rule IMO.

It already is. Maps with poor contrast shouldn't be getting ranked in the first place.
Colour blindness is irrelevant since motion is only strongly perceived in the luma domain anyway. Approach circles with low luma contrast will be hard to see for everyone.

If a map has awful combo colours, point it out in the map's thread and get a BAT to change it.

NatsumeRin wrote:

opinions?

Yes. Art More maps should be nuked on the spot. Gameplay More players should suck it up. Your "modders don't need to check for awful colours" idea is very concerning.

mm201 wrote:

Yes. Art More maps should be nuked on the spot. Gameplay More players should suck it up. Your "modders don't need to check for awful colours" idea is very concerning.

This shouldn't be words saying by a dev. As i know what we should do is to make all players happy (though it's impossible to please everyone, but let's say most then), not make only you happy, so stop the subjective comments.

Edit: check it in a objective way plz, does the new feature benefit more people? if yes, what's your point on stopping this? your personal preference? Also, learn to be polite and choose your words, thanks.

Gameplay More players should suck it up

It's interesting to see how little the devs think of the competitive players. And you expect us to sit silently and accept everything you impose on us?
This game was made popular by the players not by the devs.

This problem is very simple.

Mapper have rights to let player play map with mapper's own setting ( include AR SB Skin )
vs
Player can choose how to play except the width of judgment and overall difficulty , etc etc ( core elements of map)


First of all, there is no difference between player mapper modder bat mat devs.
(devs could be exclude from this , but still remind this )

dvorak wrote:

This problem is very simple.

Mapper have rights to let player play map with mapper's own setting ( include AR SB Skin )
vs
Player can choose how to play except the width of judgment and overall difficulty , etc etc ( core elements of map)

emm i don't think it's only that. this feature aims to get a point between the two sides and benefit both of them.

dvorak wrote:

First of all, there is no difference between player mapper modder bat mat devs.
(devs could be exclude from this , but still remind this )

That's it.

You asked for opinions, I gave you one.
If it was my say, I'd add it. I don't really care.

This doesn't change the fact that mappers who are inconsiderate of players are doing something wrong. (a map made with no attention to gameplay SHOULD be nuked)
Likewise, players who rely on the fake skill of disabling skins by no means oblige us to add more fake skill elements for them to abuse.

mm201 wrote:

This doesn't change the fact that mappers who are inconsiderate of players are doing something wrong. (a map made with no attention to gameplay SHOULD be nuked)

I could agree with this. but it's still hard to draw a line of what is "inconsiderate of players"

mm201 wrote:

Likewise, players who rely on the fake skill of disabling skins by no means oblige us to add more fake skill elements for them to abuse.

Personally i'm one of those who never delete any elements of a map, but as we all know, it happens a lot, more and more people start to do this, so before they start to act in maps, (things like "Your SB makes me blind, why do you even bother to make it?") we may need some ideas to stop the potential flames.

in that "example", could you say the mapper is inconsiderate of players? i guess not, because there can't be a totally objective way to judge. since things happens this way, why not try to solve at a neutral point.


Edit: @Ever17, check SapphireGhost's post.

Why not a "mod" before the beatmap get ranked where it "ask" if they want to allow players or not to disable some of the skins elements?. So at least, it depends on the mapper to give the "right" or not to make players able to change it.

Sorry if I said something not concerning to this feature.

NatsumeRin wrote:

If we put a rule "No combo colors should be blend to the BG/video/SB/whatever", it's still a subjective thing, and really hard to draw a line to limit those.

I don't see how it's a subjective thing when it can actually be measured

/' I'm not blaming anyone. '/

peppy already showed one solution for Skin disable option thread.

Ever17 wrote:

Why not a "mod" before the beatmap get ranked where it "ask" if they want to allow players or not to disable some of the skins elements?. So at least, it depends on the mapper to give the "right" or not to make players able to change it.

It won't solve problem, it will make new problem.

We should choose disable all, enable all, enable after xxx, etc, need to make one rule for whole map.

Ever17 wrote:

Why not a "mod" before the beatmap get ranked where it "ask" if they want to allow players or not to disable some of the skins elements?. So at least, it depends on the mapper to give the "right" or not to make players able to change it.

This basically amounts to a checkbox which states "I created a horrible atrocity which no one will want to see." (inb4 I get misunderstood again)

In other words, opinions on what's playable/unplayable differ from player to player, but when it's the very creator who makes the judgement call, either they think their map is fine and will leave this field unchecked or they think something's wrong with it and check the field.
Alternatively, a mapper may think "power to the players!" and check the field all the time.
In either case, it doesn't get used for its intended purpose.

like all controversial feature requests, we're talking about less than 5% of beatmaps, and that number is steadily decreasing. I don't mind the crappy skin/color maps: I vote 1 and move right along.

awp wrote:

NatsumeRin wrote:

If we put a rule "No combo colors should be blend to the BG/video/SB/whatever", it's still a subjective thing, and really hard to draw a line to limit those.

I don't see how it's a subjective thing when it can actually be measured

1) it's hard to measure
2) at what difference are the colors good enough?
3) what is the % color reduction in the background dim?



While this one is pretty clearly too close, I can actually tell fairly well where this note is whenever I play.

ziin wrote:

While this one is pretty clearly too close, I can actually tell fairly well where this note is whenever I play.

Well, in that example, the approach circle is still transparent. So while the beatmap might be a suitable example, that image doesn't provide helpful information.

As for measurement, it's very easy. The combo colours themselves are recorded in the .osu files, and to check them against a background image you just throw the image into an editor such as photoshop, index the colours so that the prominent ones pop out, then measure the colour and diff the RGB values from the combo colours.

Now video, that's a bit tricky. Good thing you can disable those through the UI.

Well you can always edit the colours on the new combos to skip some colors so to avoid blending with certain video sections

NO WAY. But it would be nice if there was a "I'M COLORBLIND" button.

awp wrote:

then measure the colour and diff the RGB values from the combo colours.

So are you talking on a channel to channel basis?

Because +33, +33, +33 isn't much difference, but +99, +0, +0 is pretty huge. Trying to figure out where the limits of what's acceptable is the problem. I agree you can measure it, but the one on the right is much easier to see than the one on the left, and if I did +0,+0,+99, that's even harder to see.

How about "use your head?" oh wait, that has since long stopped working which is why there needs to be rules discussed, but yeah really, im impressed this topic was even created, it's pretty easy to know what you didnt see because it was too hard to see.

mm201 wrote:

Ever17 wrote:

Why not a "mod" before the beatmap get ranked where it "ask" if they want to allow players or not to disable some of the skins elements?. So at least, it depends on the mapper to give the "right" or not to make players able to change it.

This basically amounts to a checkbox which states "I created a horrible atrocity which no one will want to see." (inb4 I get misunderstood again)

In other words, opinions on what's playable/unplayable differ from player to player, but when it's the very creator who makes the judgement call, either they think their map is fine and will leave this field unchecked or they think something's wrong with it and check the field.
Alternatively, a mapper may think "power to the players!" and check the field all the time.
In either case, it doesn't get used for its intended purpose.

I'd like to politely disagree. I think that it would be better for the mapper to give players a choice on how they would like to experience the beatmap, and I know that sometimes I enjoy making storyboards but if someone doesn't want to see that storyboard, I would not want to force them to see it. But you're free to disagree with me ~

Basically you fit into category 2, the mappers who would always check it because they like giving players the option.

Sakura Hana wrote:

How about "use your head?" oh wait, that has since long stopped working which is why there needs to be rules discussed, but yeah really, im impressed this topic was even created, it's pretty easy to know what you didnt see because it was too hard to see.

You must be fucking kidding me.

Oh, woops, I couldn't see this note because it's exactly same color as BG! Woops, I must be a retard!

Blame the ma--wait no, blame the BAT who ranked it.

mm201 wrote:

Blame the ma--wait no, blame the BAT who ranked it.

As far as I know, this thread wasn't created only to stop new maps from being ranked, but old maps that don't make any sense on their colours, like Chocobo with the black circle.

So uh, I would like to know your opinion on these maps.

Blue Dragon wrote:

mm201 wrote:

Blame the ma--wait no, blame the BAT who ranked it.

As far as I know, this thread wasn't created only to stop new maps from being ranked, but old maps that don't make any sense on their colours, like Chocobo with the black circle.

So uh, I would like to know your opinion on these maps.

Hax submit?

In either case BD, you totally misunderstood what i said, im not calling anyone a retard, rather im saying that you must use your head when modding to see what's good and what's not good, if there's a problem it should be addressed during the modding phase, but most players that play pending maps go "lol star" rather than finding these issues with the maps and mentioning them, they may earn their first ever kudosu for doing so, however they dont, and when maps get ranked, they complain.

If there's such a big problem with a distracting storyboard, skin, etc, just go ahead to the beatmap thread and say it before it gets ranked, if it's too much of a problem it could be unranked, then loss of scores, and thread becomes drama (i still love how i pointed out blending colors on this map by directly PMing some BATs on the day it got ranked and no one did anything so im not sure if they care or not now, but really pink over pink?)

Instead of trying to fix what's not broken, why not prevent the blending colours from getting ranked, which is the whole reason the rule was created in the first place.

Seems Sakura Hana still don't get the idea.

It means, a general solution for the combo color thing, included the maps will be ranked, also the maps got ranked before. If you insist to "fix" combo color/SB/BG before a map get ranked or even bother to unrank them, have you ever considered, will those "fixed elements" be suitable for all players? it's still opinions by one or two people, or a little group, it's just turns "let mapper decide" to "let modders decide", no really difference here, because there's still no choice leaves for players and they have to deal with it. it's impossible for 100% players to feel comfortable about those elements.

According to what the request is going now, we could still leave the right "if the map is optional" to mappers and if the mapper is not willing to change, he could still keeps what he want to show. This feature really improves sth without hurt someone.

I could agree that mappers should have some "special right" just because they're mappers (i'm a mapper myself, yeah), spends days or even weeks to make a map, so he could decide "if it's optional". But in Sakura's way, why a certain modder is so special and have the right to force others use the "probably fit" color? If we decide to change, should players' opinion be the first place to consider about? They will decide what's the colors fit themselves for sure.

The problem is (if you disagree with these things just say it plz):
1. We all agree mappers should have some rights to handle his own maps.
2. We all agree players' feeling must be considered.
3. We need a point between this to get all things work fine.
4. No, it's not only modders. If the mapper have no right to force players, the modders shouldn't even think about that. So this is what the feature stands.

Players feelings are considered... they are welcome to mod the map anytime before it gets ranked.

What i mean is, why are you trying to fix something that is not broken

Sakura Hana wrote:

Players feelings are considered... they are welcome to mod the map anytime before it gets ranked.

What i mean is, why are you trying to fix something that is not broken

Not really, you have to admit "players" and "modders" are probably 2 separated groups. 90% of the players won't play a map that's not ranked. And this is why now mappers treat "rank" so seriously.

So in your way, The 90%'s feeling is not considered, really. And i guess 90% is probably less than the real number.

the fact that they dont, doesnt mean that they cant.

Edit: If players really wanted to voice their opinions on maps, they really would mod them before they are ranked, so they can play them in peace without anything bothering them, and the way the mapper intentended them to be played, both players and mappers can come to an agreement on what fits both for the mapper's criteria and the player's gameplay so the map can be the best it can for both the mapper and the players.
But since like players dont want to ever touch pending maps, so they dont want to voice their opinions when the maps can still be changed, rather they voice their opinion when nothing can be done.

Do we solve things based on the fact, or "they could and they should"?

Edit: In this feature, everything could be done after it's ranked. Players could still get what mappers intend the map to be (they have to play the map once to get the option). Players could change things fit themselves perfectly, which is obvious a better solution to force all players use the same color (if we're talking about gameplay). So what will leave you unsatisfied?

If they can play a pending map, and voice their opinion to the mapper already, i dont see why we should let them have control of the combo colours. It's obvious this is going to be a pointless argument between you and me, so i'll refrain from posting any further, i already have given my point and you gave yours, we just disagree with each other.

Oh also something i forgot: players are already modding the maps, the only difference is that we dont call them players anymore ^^;; are are you telling me that modders dont play?

Sakura Hana wrote:

If they can play a pending map, and voice their opinion to the mapper already, i dont see why we should let them have control of the combo colours.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Players could change things fit themselves perfectly, which is obvious a better solution to force all players use the same color (if we're talking about gameplay)

Sakura Hana wrote:

i already have given my point and you gave yours

i think i answered all your questions but you didn't give me even one.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Oh also something i forgot: players are already modding the maps, the only difference is that we dont call them players anymore ^^;; are are you telling me that modders dont play?

They play, of course. We often consider modders as "a small part of players, who has better playing skills and mapping skills in general". But if we are talking about combo color, i guess we should emphesis on the "small part".

NatsumeRin wrote:

It means, a general solution for the combo color thing, included the maps will be ranked, also the maps got ranked before.

This policy is inviting mappers to continue choosing bad combo colours, which, if anything, adds to the problem instead of making it better.

NatsumeRin wrote:

If you insist to "fix" combo color/SB/BG before a map get ranked or even bother to unrank them, have you ever considered, will those "fixed elements" be suitable for all players? it's still opinions by one or two people, or a little group, it's just turns "let mapper decide" to "let modders decide", no really difference here, because there's still no choice leaves for players and they have to deal with it. it's impossible for 100% players to feel comfortable about those elements.

Chooosing high-contrast colours that fit with the map's theme isn't hard.

NatsumeRin wrote:

The problem is (if you disagree with these things just say it plz):
1. We all agree mappers should have some rights to handle his own maps.
2. We all agree players' feeling must be considered.
3. We need a point between this to get all things work fine.
4. No, it's not only modders. If the mapper have no right to force players, the modders shouldn't even think about that. So this is what the feature stands.

The correct answer is, the mappers and players need to reach a compromise. The mappers need to be considerate of the players and choose high contrast colour themes. "My song is about a ghost" is not an excuse to use transparent hitcircles. The players need to be considerate of the artistic work that went into the map and not insist on using VIBRANT SUPER GREEN #38 WHICH IS SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN TO PROVIDE A .001% FASTER RETINAL RESPONSE coloured circles in every map they play. The objective of the approval process is to make this a reality.

Allowing players to set their own colours pulls these two groups apart and encourages them to get in each other's way instead of help each other.

mm201 wrote:

This policy is inviting mappers to continue choosing bad combo colours, which, if anything, adds to the problem instead of making it better.

So what's wrong with it? I think i already gave the solution after that. If both players and mappers feel better, what's the point of thinking "adds to the problem instead of making it better?

mm201 wrote:

Chooosing high-contrast colours that fit with the map's theme isn't hard.

No, sometimes it can't be. Just use my wowaka series as example, including combo color change with PV, i think it's just impossible to choose another set of combo color to fit the theme better. Or do you think i should just "compromise" instead of making the best map i can.

mm201 wrote:

Allowing players to set their own colours pulls these two groups apart and encourages them to get in each other's way instead of help each other.

Again, yes, they may. But in the time before, they step on the same way, if mappers keeping to step forth, players has to choose "back". So at the very end we'll see the two side keep a compromise in somewhere around the middle point. But in this feature request, they can get in each other's way, step further than they did, which will make them happy. I still think the main point is to change things and make all players happy, not keeping a rule in the head and use the rule to explain all the things.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Or do you think i should just "compromise" instead of making the best map i can.

Now you're getting it!

(Although I'm a bit disappointed that your concept of "best" doesn't consider the players.)

NatsumeRin wrote:

But in this feature request, they can get in each other's way, step further than they did, which will make them happy.

Suppose I don't want to have to resort to disabling colours (or custom skins, storyboards, ..., same deal) to be able to play a map. Suppose I want to play them as the mappers intended. If there are no regulations on combo colour/skin/storyboard contrast and visibility, I may not be able to do this.

Disabling things shouldn't be necessary to enjoy the game.

I'm afraid that if I used an option like this I'd end up picking colors that occasionally blend more with the background than the original ones would have... I use yellow in tag coop and every now and then I find myself wishing I had picked another color instead.

Not really a huge fan of this request as a whole (it breaks Fear Factory ), but I wouldn't object to it being implemented I guess.

1. Let mappers do their best, let players do their best.
2. LET'S COMPROMISE!

What's the point you even think about option 2....?

Disabling things shouldn't be necessary to enjoy the game. But what if it start to make most players and mappers feel better? It's unnecessary, but will be useful. And we still should ban it because of unnecessary? Do you remember Faraday and electricity?

(1) is an ideal, but an impractical one, because different people have different concepts of what's best. Finding common ground is necessary to make something that everyone can enjoy. It's not always possible for everyone to have their way.

Yeah it wouldn't hurt much to add something like this but it's still not my say. peppy has made it clear that he doesn't want disablers for anything related to skinning and I'm not going against that.

mm201 wrote:

(1) is an ideal, but an impractical one, because different people have different concepts of what's best. Finding common ground is necessary to make something that everyone can enjoy. It's not always possible for everyone to have their way.

Not really, at least we get more close to the ideal with the feature, because... different people have different concepts of what's best.

mm201 wrote:

Yeah it wouldn't hurt much to add something like this but it's still not my say. peppy has made it clear that he doesn't want disablers for anything related to skinning and I'm not going against that.

If it's peppy's will i can't say much about it. Maybe let the discussion continues a while and see if peppy would like to change his idea.

Let's throw a wrench in the works: Suppose my ideal is that I should be able to play every map with its custom skin and like it. This feature now makes my gameplay experience worse.

mm201 wrote:

Let's throw a wrench in the works: Suppose my ideal is that I should be able to play every map with its custom skin and like it. This feature now makes my gameplay experience worse.

It stays the same since one of the option is to keep it as original, don't forget it plz?

NatsumeRin wrote:

mm201 wrote:

Let's throw a wrench in the works: Suppose my ideal is that I should be able to play every map with its custom skin and like it. This feature now makes my gameplay experience worse.

It stays the same since one of the option is to keep it as original, don't forget it plz?

And should we assume all mappers will use that?

But it goes back to my earlier point, that this would imply removing quality control from object colour choice, allowing mappers to choose difficult-to-see colours.

^that's not quite what mm meant.
The important part is the "and like it" which expresses his concern that the colors the mapper chooses might be (nearly) unplayable because mappers will just assume that players can change them anyway~
/E: Too late \:D/

All this idea is going on assumptions, all of the supporters are assuming the mappers will let players play their colours, while others can be assuming all mappers are going to choose to keep their colours.

All in all this is only a way to justify "Im too lazy to check if colours blend with the background" which is probably one of the most easy checks in a map.

This is just going against the reasoning behind the modding phase of beatmaps, as i said problems like these should be addressed during the modding phase of the beatmap.

And before you bring colour blind people into the equation, take in mind that even colour blind people can distinguish dark from light, so as long as colours contrast there shouldnt be a problem at all.

@Sakura: Probably. i'm one of the "Art More Mappers', a quite strong one among them. i don't dare to turn it off, i already have enough flames.

@mm201:The "quality control" is still a way, to let players feel better when they playing. If we can reach the final point in another way, those middlepoints could be dropped for sure.

Edit: @Sakura: do you even bother to read through the thread then start to speak? thanks.
Give me a clear reason why you against it, not saying "i'm right, i'm always right" again and again.

NatsumeRin wrote:

If you are a mapper and put gameplay the first place, you SHOULD let players decide the combo color, since you can't know them better than themselves. They will have more fun (at least, equal fun), with their own custom colors.

If you are a player at the point between Art and Gameplay, you may want to enjoy the map sometimes, while get a nice score at another time. and with the new feature it's easily to change.

If you are a mapper and think Art is more important, you will be happy (not that happy... happier maybe) to know your map will be played as your wish at least once, instead of the current situation: they will be deleted once the are extract from .osz file to a folder.

You missed my point. I was considering a player who feels bad because they need to turn off map colours. They don't want to be forced to turn things off just to be able to play. It makes them feel bad. This attitude may be a bit unreasonable, but so is expecting to be allowed to use any and all colours of your choosing.

I also don't exactly understand why you want to use low-contrast colours so much.

Building on your chart, let's consider:

The connecting lines show what kinds of maps different mappers will create, and what kinds of maps different players will enjoy.
Balanced mappers can create maps approachable to both ArtMore and GameplayMore players. Likewise, balanced players will be able to approach most kinds of maps. (In reality, there are way more variables than this, but it provides the basics.)

The message here? Everyone should strive for balance! If mappers are mapping for the community, and not for themselves, they'll try to make maps that strike a balance between art and gameplay to maximize the enjoyment to the widest audience. (inb4mainstreamfaggotry)

NatsumeRin wrote:

Stuff too big to quote entirely

I'm not saying im always right, all im telling you is to not fix what's not broken.

If a fix is needed is with the modders themselves for letting things like these slip by, the game is not what is broken there's no need to change the game at all.

i think i get your point now.... but, that in fact explains why the maps are becoming similar now, which leads to another question: do you think it would be better if all map becomes similar? (now it's probably a trend, mainstreamftw) I just can't agree with that. (btw, this model is really like the one used in political science, but it's not similar because balance is probably not the best answer here.)

Everyone should strive for balance! Yeah, if they treat "how will the community judge my map" more than "how i feel about the map myself"... It doesn't make much sense imo. If just few styles left, osu must be less interesting then. Not like in political science, in which balance leads to "safe".

For the combo color thing, i guess we just have really different value about aesthetic.

Edit: @Sakura: you're repeating your point again now. i'll reply to you when you could read my point and give your idea to it. (I already comment about what's wrong with your point enough i think)

btw, "there's no need to change the game at all." <<It's just silly.

So you say that all maps will be the same? ok let's assume your idea gets accepted, either 1) mappers dont let players choose their colours, which will lead us to this same point, and we did nothing or 2) mappers will let the players choose their colours so they will play every map with the same colours, which makes maps EVEN MORE similar.

As far as efficiency goes, i'd rather see efficiency in the modding process increased, than removing aspects of the modding just because you think modders are incapable of doing their job right since apparently ppl can tell black colours on a black background, or blue colours on a blue background and say they are fine because their appreciation of colours is different.

Basically, and as I hinted at with my inb4, it boils down to the mainstream art debate. Artists don't want their creative visions tainted by the wants of others. It's your right. But may I reiterate that not every beatmap needs to be ranked. People are welcome to upload their maps (here or elsewhere) and link to them without aiming for ranking. Beatmap approval is basically just a stamp that says "this map should have some level of appeal and playability to the majority of players." Also, why do you want your maps ranked other than to draw attention to them?

You could also provide both a toned down version of a map, suitable for ranking, and a version, linked to in the thread, which is more close to your original intentions.

Again, ranking guidelines themselves are compromises between mappers and players.

Sakura Hana wrote:

So you say that all maps will be the same? ok let's assume your idea gets accepted, either 1) mappers dont let players choose their colours, which will lead us to this same point, and we did nothing or 2) mappers will let the players choose their colours so they will play every map with the same colours, which makes maps EVEN MORE similar.

It's "map becoming similar" or "it plays more similar"? The former, is not likely to happen if we have more features encouraging them to develop in a various way (like this one!). The Latter, isn't it what you guys wanted?

@mm201: About to agree here, but the fact is still mappers (even the guys most like artist) still want their map to be ranked. It's not a bad thing to see such maps being ranked if it doesn't go too far. After all, "artist" is not a absolute meaning, everyone has his "artist" characteristic and some "society".

Not at all =/

I respect every mappers' mapping style, and i love to see different styles throughout the modding process, the fact that hitcircles blend with the background entirely relies on the choice of background by the mapper and their combo colour choice, i dont see how asking the mapper to use something different that they also like is restricting them or forcing them to map one way or another

I would hope that a map could stand out by the merit of its mapping, not the frills tacked on like skinning and colours.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Not at all =/

I respect every mappers' mapping style, and i love to see different styles throughout the modding process, the fact that hitcircles blend with the background entirely relies on the choice of background by the mapper and their combo colour choice, i dont see how asking the mapper to use something different that they also like is restricting them or forcing them to map one way or another

Sometimes the solution is the ONLY one. But you probably won't know. In such situations, i could just hope the modder won't force anything to the mapper, it's another topic anyway.

mm201 wrote:

I would hope that a map could stand out by the merit of its mapping, not the frills tacked on like skinning and colours.

True. This is just a small part (which could improve imo), but i really wonder why some MAT/BAT rushed in and think it's so important lol.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Sakura Hana wrote:

Not at all =/

I respect every mappers' mapping style, and i love to see different styles throughout the modding process, the fact that hitcircles blend with the background entirely relies on the choice of background by the mapper and their combo colour choice, i dont see how asking the mapper to use something different that they also like is restricting them or forcing them to map one way or another

Sometimes the solution is the ONLY one. But you probably won't know. In such situations, i could just hope the modder won't force anything to the mapper, it's another topic anyway.

If it comes to that i'd be happy to give suggestions that work to the mapper until the mapper is happy

NatsumeRin wrote:

Sometimes the solution is the ONLY one. But you probably won't know. In such situations, i could just hope the modder won't force anything to the mapper, it's another topic anyway.

It's like telling a poem in Spanish to someone who only speaks Japanese. They aren't going to get it. Players aren't going to understand your artistic expression if they can hardly see your map.

I haven't read the whole thread since it's damn long but I think this is absolutely necessary if osz2 is ever gonna be implemented, since there are TONS OF MAPS (even a lot from the thread's creator) that are just very VERY hard to read due to the BG being the same damn color than lots of hits.

Ok wait a second. What's the idea of "maps" to begin with? You make a map and people PLAYS them, and from my pov which is the one from a player who knows NOTHING about mapping, is that players should enjoy a map instead of dealing with stuff they don't like. That's why we actually play, to enjoy the whole thing, now, what's so fun of playing a map with grey hitcircles, grey background, kiai 24/7, flashy SB so you can't see a shit, etc? Nothing. Some people MAY actually like it (I'm pretty sure they're just a few since I've got many friends playing this and most of them if not all rage when playing a retardskinned map where you can't see a thing, and I'm talking about CASUAL players...), but anyways, the best idea would be to let each player to play each map however they want, I don't care if the mapper wanted to "make some artistic map", because I'm not interested in how the map looks but how thet map plays, as well as there is some other people who is interested in the opposite thing, or maybe in both, but in the end by not letting everyone play their way you just get people to not enjoy the game.

Inb4 bad english ftw ye.

And just so you get it guys, nobody plays any "hard" or "fun" map with BG/Skin/SB/Video, whenever I start playing something and like it the first thing I do (if I haven't already) is delete every damn element from the map so I can enjoy it, not that nobody cares but I will and lots of players will keep deleting everything so they can play with black/grey/whatever BG and their own skin (some even delete hitsounds I'm sure).

Wishy22: Old maps that can be considered hard to read due to it, can be easily force updated to change the combo colours, what we need to do is prevent those things from now on...

-- Spanish version just in case / Version en español por si acaso ----

Wishy22: Los mapas viejos que pueden ser considerados dificiles de leer debido a los colores, pueden ser facilmente forzados a hacer update para cambiar los colores, lo que necesitamos hacer es prevenir que esas cosas ocurran de ahora en adelante.

updated? let's assume only 5% of the maps use "blending" colors, another 5% have other visual elements makes people "uncomfortable", you need to fix 500 maps then. Why don't you even think about another way? just to show your power hah?

Edit: this is kinda harsh, but i think you should stop and think, not going as a tail of all "rules"

Edit2: and let's assume 10% of those maps use this for certain art effects and did good. You break 50 good maps then. Great job lady.

NatsumeRin wrote:

updated? let's assume only 5% of the maps use "blending" colors, another 5% have other visual elements makes people "uncomfortable", you need to fix 500 maps then. Why don't you even think about another way? just to show your power hah?

Edit: this is kinda harsh, but i think you should stop and think, not going as a tail of all "rules"

Edit2: and let's assume 10% of those maps use this for certain art effects and did good. You break 50 good maps then. Great job lady.

Not like your idea would fix it either you know, im not showing any power, im just showing my opinion on the matter

WHY CAN'T IT FIX?

oh damn, i guess i have explained it long enough and well enough?

NatsumeRin wrote:

WHY CAN'T IT FIX?

oh damn, i guess i have explained it long enough and well enough?

Yeah. If I were you I'd have already stopped.

NatsumeRin wrote:

WHY CAN'T IT FIX?

oh damn, i guess i have explained it long enough and well enough?

Because you've already lost the hopes in the modding process, this feature request is proof enough of it, you dont trust the modding process anymore, so you want to let the players do what they want.
With time you'll probably start to make more feature requests to let players disable other gameplay elements as well, and who knows where it will lead to.
If you had a little bit of faith and hope in the modding process you wouldn't need to create a feature request like this on the basis that "blending colours is subjective", instead you should instead, be helping other maps to not allow colours to blend, if you become stubborn and say that making the colours match the colours in your map is art, then that's you, but you're not helping the players that way...

In the end, all you want is for you to be able to do what you want with the colours with no one to yell at you, now tell me if im wrong?.


No matter what happens i'll never lose hope on the mappers, i think we can all come to a day when we dont even need to be telling anyone a rule for mappers to make intuitive and fun to play maps, that dont disturb players at all either, that have fair gameplay elements, that dont TRY to trip the players on purpose, and for that reason i'll continue to mod, to help the mappers out there make some fair maps that players dont need to complain about.

If you want to continue with this request i wont stop you, but now i already know how you think.

Edit: You want to solve a problem? solve a problem by its root <--- there's your answer

i'm sorry, i just saw this post for several secs, and i think there's no answer to my question.

Like all your posts in this thread before. you're trying to repeat your "modding process ftw" again and again. YOU'RE ONE OF THOSE WHO LOVE TO FORCE MAPPERS DON'T YOU.

Also of course i want the right "no modders could force me to do anything except i'm against a certain, objective rule", i don't need you to yell at me just like Cookiezi don't need you to teach him how to play osu.

You used many text walls but still don't want to answer any question, i just fucking laughed.

NatsumeRin wrote:

i'm sorry, i just saw this post for several secs, and i think there's no answer to my question.

Your question is, "WHY WON'T IT FIX?" from what I can tell. She does answer it but didn't make that answer clear.

Her answer is that it won't fix the actual problem; the actual problem is that mappers choose retarded combo colors at times. All this is is a band-aid. You can't argue otherwise - it does not stop mappers from choosing retarded combo colors. It gives players a workaround, but does not fix the actual problem. A player should not have to do the mapper's work for them - that is her viewpoint.

As far as "forcing mappers" goes, her point is simply that mappers do some pretty dumb shit sometimes - I am extremely guilty of t-

...oh this is getting nowhere, let's just lock this thread already so we don't have to deal with this nonsense from the both of you. Neither of you are understanding each other, and both have valid viewpoints on the matter. Let's just end this nonsense; combo colors are the least time-consuming part of making a beatmap - so who gives a fuck? - and really, you guys will argue until this is locked no matter what. Let's just end this and wait for what the devs decide on.

I'm going to be blunt about this matter..... first off, the mapper needs to properly figure out what colors can safely work with the map. I wouldn't give two s***s about the color "perfectly matching the map" if it blends with the background and elements. It SHOULD be fixed, not just wait to complain and b**** about it AFTER the map is ranked. Small details like these get ignored until people say something later which is something I really hate honestly. If you're blinded by how "cool" the map looks and then figure out later after 100 or so plays that something is off, you're only fooling yourself.

If you really want to prevent things like this, then MOD SOME MAPS and stop waiting for someone else to say something for you. Also for the mappers, trying to rush the layout of the map is not cool. Yes, it's nice to find related combo colors for the background, but not in such a way that disappears with other like-colors from the video and background. DON'T IGNORE THOSE SUGGESTIONS. Changing the combo colors takes only a few minutes and is not a life or death matter.

Last..... NatsumeRin, I only see you trolling at this point and failing to keep a logical debate for the request. Tone down the attitude and get your head out of your ass. You mod maps as well and should be able to HELP prevent these kind of things, not let them happen.

NatsumeRin wrote:

i'm sorry, i just saw this post for several secs, and i think there's no answer to my question.

Like all your posts in this thread before. you're trying to repeat your "modding process ftw" again and again. YOU'RE ONE OF THOSE WHO LOVE TO FORCE MAPPERS DON'T YOU.

NatsumeRin, modding is one of the most important things in the community so there's nothing wrong with saying "moddingftw". Also, you're a modder so you should know that the only time when a modder enforces something is when there is unrankable stuff in the map. (Like blending colours)

Also of course i want the right "no modders could force me to do anything except i'm against a certain, objective rule"

This why the new rules/guidelines are being made. Sorry, but you can't do whatever you want. (Please don't start discussing this here)

Just making some points clear, you may continue with your pointless arguing.

combo colors are the least time-consuming part of making a beatmap - so who gives a fuck?

so who gives a fuck

I do, exotic colors are the reason i need to replace backgrounds. monochrome as always worked the best for me and thats why i use a gray bg.

I see how this could work. I don't quite see any relevance in Sakura's post. I don't see any distrust in the modding process. Seems like all Sakura is saying, as usually, it's that all mappers try to trip up players on purpose aka it's always the mappers fault.

Anyway. You have my support because what maybe considered distinguishable will not be the same for everyone. Like stated earlier, the player should be required to play the map first before being able to change the colors. Perhaps an option that appears that is similar to the combo color option for tag in multiplayer?

Also sometimes the video and the background maybe related but may not have the same color scheme.

@whyme: I know how you ended up in this thread.

Now, let's get back on track

Another thing..... if it comes down to the point the players have to change the combocolors, then something is REALLY wrong.

whymeman wrote:

Another thing..... if it comes down to the point the players have to change the combocolors, then something is REALLY wrong.

Umm, seems like in the "new" rules you modders are trying to cater to all types of players. What if a small group of players are colorblind. Are you planning on alienating them? Or you might have another of group people who might be impaired some other way

whymeman wrote:

Another thing..... if it comes down to the point the players have to change the combocolors, then something is REALLY wrong.

True.

But if some of the players are willing to change it for better gameplay experience, nothing wrong with it. It's where the feature stands. As i know, Sakura is trying to emphesis "you should be able to find a combo color fit everyone, not let them choose", which is impossible.

Back to logical parts:

1.What's wrong with "make all players happy"? Nothing wrong i guess.
2.Devide "players" to "players", "mappers", "modders".
3.I'm using this again (3rd time!), i hope the guys who are against my request could really understand it, then give your point.
4.Quoting this again (3rd time) to make it more clear.

Questions:
1.Now do you think this feature could benefit most of the community?
2.If yes, what's wrong with it?
3.If no, please answer me why?


Edit: Why i post the trolling thread is Sakura seems don't want to discuss, she just repeat again and again to make irrelevant posts. Now, statements here, questions here, discuss.

@whyme: i won't call that a debate, since Sakura's posts are just like a recorder and i don't know how to debate with a recorder, then i lost my patience. It's probably my fault, but it's Sakura's problem to bring those meaningless thing to a feature request thread, make it clear.

@Ekaru: You mean a random guy jumped in a thread, post irrelevant things, which lead to a debate (near flame), and close a meaningful topic because of that? You must be kidding me.

Just because you feel the posts are "irrelevant" doesn't mean you have the right to be an ass against someone. Trolling will also make your own post irrelevant as well.

Also, to "divide" the people into Players | Mappers | Modders is stupid. A person can be all three and be able to use their minds more to apply common sense / logical thinking on what is proper for the map, not what they feel is right because being right by opinion could be wrong in truth.

@ ouranhshc: That.... is a poor concept on trying to make a point. Colorblind or not, the combocolors should be set to a proper hue that does not blend with the map. Even if the person IS color blind, the hue level in black and white scale still implies the same in a way but only with different levels of brightness based on two colors. And, even with the hue adjustment, HOW is someone going to actually play not being able to see the colors properly? Might as well put a blank black or white background with opposite combocolors.

still, find it funny how everything is always the mappers fault

To make it clear:

1.We're discussing a new way to solve combo color problems, include the problems may happen in the future, and the problems happened in the past.

2.We should discuss about if it's useful, if it's better than the way we used before.

3.If not, you should make your point about why, also if could, try think some way to improve the feature or current system.

4.Let's discuss or debate based on those things.

ouranhshc wrote:

still, find it funny how everything is always the mappers fault

Only from your insight. When serious problems show up on the map, it also becomes the modder's fault for not finding the issue or ignoring it and allowing it through. But in reality EVERYONE takes the blame for the serious *flaws* on the map.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Wishy22: Old maps that can be considered hard to read due to it, can be easily force updated to change the combo colours, what we need to do is prevent those things from now on....

Nah maps with hitcircles bending with BG will still get ranked, we all know that kind of stuff happens and you ain't gonna go unranking pretty much every map that gets ranked because some people can't play them properly. Plus nobody's gonna go back and check 6000 beatmaps (when most of them are crap and barely played at all) to see if they are hard to read due to hitcolors, and again you need more than one guy checking out all of them since you need several povs since if you get some people saying it's hard to read that's good enough to say it can actually be hard to read for some players, which is bad and would require an update. The fastest way to deal with this is just letting every player play like they want.

Btw so you guys see how serious modding/ranking process actually is, a map with a guy masturbating in it's video got ranked I mean LOL, and sometimes it takes MONTHS until someone notices there is a SUPER HYPER UNRANKABLE SLIDER or a hidden hit or any kind of crap, the BEST thing you can ALWAYS do is apply new features that avoid a possible human error, with each user being able to choose to play with custom colors (and of course having the option to play with the map's one) you avoid ANY TYPE OF POSSIBLE ISSUE with this thing, which I think it's the best. Of course I may agree with the map having to be played AT LEAST ONCE for you being able to change some stuff like hitcolor and shit.

Of course it is different for everyoen because not everyone uses the same skin. Some people have transparent hitcircles, etc.
The only solution is to use a hitcircleoverlay that overlays on top of the hitcircle to get the desired color.

I don't believe in "quick fixes" to address this issue. The main thing is that if more and more maps are being seen with blending combocolors, then that would show signs of a weakening modding process. This especially becomes true and shows more as some mappers tend to rush to get their maps ranked than properly modded. But honestly, my thoughts on this is to combat the issue with trying to mod the maps (even right now) and check the combocolors for this kind of simple problem. Seriously, the mapper should NOT have trouble doing a 10 minute fix.

And also, demanding for requests do not help if you don't ask yourself the questions the feature will have to go through to know if it really can go through or not.

Wishy22 wrote:

with each user being able to choose to play with custom colors (and of course having the option to play with the map's one) you avoid ANY TYPE OF POSSIBLE ISSUE with this thing, which I think it's the best. Of course I may agree with the map having to be played AT LEAST ONCE for you being able to change some stuff like hitcolor and shit.

@whyme:If we spend 10mins on every map it's just a waste of time, also it doesn't help the old maps to become better.

@All: We put players first place, shall we?

I'd just be happy if from here on out, mappers would take this problem into consideration and change the colors to make them stand out more from the story board...which is the ideal and easy solution. I know everyone has played a map and thought to themselves "A black background with black hitcircles??? Really??".

I get people are trying to carry the theme of the music to the background and hitcircles, but it shouldn't be at the cost of making your map hard to read... making it a strain on the players eyes and in the end making the user not want to play your map. For now, atleast you can change the background to something else, but when osz2 comes out...we're not going to have that option anymore which really bothers me.

Mappers before players i guess. Who are the players anyways, they dont matter

If 10 minutes of effort is a "waste of time" then that's just being lazy. Also, if the mapper was thinking about the players more, then there wouldn't be a need for a topic like this....

whymeman wrote:

If 10 minutes of effort is a "waste of time" then that's just being lazy. Also, if the mapper was thinking about the players more, then there wouldn't be a need for a topic like this....

let's think for both of them... thanks.

Apologies, I oversimplify everything.

NatsumeRin wrote:

1.We're discussing a new way to solve combo color problems, include the problems may happen in the future, and the problems happened in the past.

Let's look at this with a logical approach:
Why are similar combo colors blending into the background a problem?
Because it makes it difficult to read and find out when and where the next note is
Why is not knowing when and where the next note is a problem?
Because it is not fun. If something isn't fun, you're not going to do it.

There are many other things which make the map difficult to read:
High AR, stacking notes, using illogical spacing, putting notes under other objects. The difference between hiding a note in the background color and underneath a slider, to me, is negligible. Allowing players to choose their colors will not solve the problem.

NatsumeRin wrote:

2.We should discuss about if it's useful, if it's better than the way we used before.

Undoubtedly. I would use it the same way I use the current skin deletion exploit. Only on maps which I think need it. But everyone will think it's useful. The question is if they want it. Balancing art and gameplay is difficult at times, and many people would rather be artistic and ostracize 10% of the players to protect their artwork from being completely ignored/wasted.

NatsumeRin wrote:

3.If not, you should make your point about why, also if could, try think some way to improve the feature or current system.

Having the player decide everything about a beatmap except for the timing window, hp drain, circle size, and note placement is IMO the ideal situation which has been harshly denied in the past. I've said before I'm amazed we have a cursor toggle. I would go so far as to say customization should be all or nothing, and I wouldn't complain if we lost the cursor toggle.

ziin wrote:

There are many other things which make the map difficult to read:
High AR, stacking notes, using illogical spacing, putting notes under other objects. The difference between hiding a note in the background color and underneath a slider, to me, is negligible. Allowing players to choose their colors will not solve the problem.

What you said is true except for the last sentence, which should be "It can solve part of the problem."

ziin wrote:

Undoubtedly. I would use it the same way I use the current skin deletion exploit. Only on maps which I think need it. But everyone will think it's useful. The question is if they want it. Balancing art and gameplay is difficult at times, and many people would rather be artistic and ostracize 10% of the players to protect their artwork from being completely ignored/wasted.

We could agree on "it's useful". Then the problem becomes the balance of Art and Gameplay. With thie feature i think we could let people choose what they want more, so no one will be really ignored/wasted. Not like current system, if a mapper insist his "art", a nuke is probably waiting for him.

ziin wrote:

Having the player decide everything about a beatmap except for the timing window, hp drain, circle size, and note placement is IMO the ideal situation which has been harshly denied in the past.

Don't know much but i could understand that.

ziin wrote:

I've said before I'm amazed we have a cursor toggle. I would go so far as to say customization should be all or nothing, and I wouldn't complain if we lost the cursor toggle.

Hehe let it be all then. If the reason is good enough. As a mapper i'd like to use this period to proteck myself, how ridiculous...

I know you're tired of me, but as i've said before, the problem is within the modding process, you should solve a problem by it's root, or do you give a coughing medicine to someone with a flu?

If you dont attack the problem by it's root and just keep adding band-aids the problem will never cease to exist, letting players control the colours wont solve the problem within the modding phase of the beatmaps.

I really hope you get it this time, coz i'm really getting tired of posting here

Edit: yay for using the same words as Ekaru

Your point is modding process should solve all the things, but it's just ideal. Because you can't expect several people to come up with an idea that ALL people could enjoy. So why not let them decide how to enjoy?

I said it again here now. And back to topic, quote again:

Wishy22 wrote:

with each user being able to choose to play with custom colors (and of course having the option to play with the map's one) you avoid ANY TYPE OF POSSIBLE ISSUE with this thing, which I think it's the best. Of course I may agree with the map having to be played AT LEAST ONCE for you being able to change some stuff like hitcolor and shit.

Don't worry about the modding process, we fix the things forever.

Edit: And for the old maps, your solution is "fix them one by one", which costs much more than just adding a new feature. Am i wrong with it. Also, combo color thing is in .osu files and any change of .osu file will lead to a update, which give many troubles to players.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Your point is modding process should solve all the things, but it's just ideal. Because you can't expect several people to come up with an idea that ALL people could enjoy. So why not let them decide how to enjoy?

Actually i can: viewforum.php?f=80

Like I said modding is not a flawless process and errors always slip by.
It's utopia to imagine ALL ERRORS will be caught during the modding process and I hardly doubt new rules/guidelines are going to stop any more problem from arising in the future.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Actually i can: viewforum.php?f=80

Irrelevant post again, also:
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=57060
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=57292

I just loled. Sorry, i can't expect discussions like this will end up with a nice idea. Before the poll, i guess mm201 didn't think about a new feature to indicate slider speed change will be needed. And hey the discussion is still heated. Why do you even bother to discuss it, lol. Assume something and force it to players/mappers, do you think you should teach Cookiezi how to read slider speed change now?


Side note: How could an update with minor changes hurt the players?

This is a plot line shows the playcounts/day in one of my map. The place with a read square is when i asked LuigiHann to hax submit the video, which leads to an update. We can know from this line that players get confused when they need to update a ranked map.

Sakura Hana wrote:

I know you're tired of me, but as i've said before, the problem is within the modding process, you should solve a problem by it's root, or do you give a coughing medicine to someone with a flu?

If you dont attack the problem by it's root and just keep adding band-aids the problem will never cease to exist, letting players control the colours wont solve the problem within the modding phase of the beatmaps.

I really hope you get it this time, coz i'm really getting tired of posting here

Edit: yay for using the same words as Ekaru

^This for the love of (insert thing you love here)

/end thread

Seriously, there's NOTHING to debate about. It's a problem and this is the solution. Why this isn't a mapping rule already, I can't grasp.

Mapping rules should be ever changing and evolving to improve the quality of game play. If mappers truly want to make the best possible maps for Osu, I don't think this is too much to ask, is it?

Xact wrote:

Seriously, there's NOTHING to debate about. It's a problem and this is the solution. Why this isn't a mapping rule already, I can't grasp.

Why all maps are not the same already, I can't grasp.

Hey, if you want to discuss, use your brain, follow the things i mentioned, or you could go out of this thread.