I'd rather give players the right to choose, depends they like "art" more, or "gameplay" (or score) more.
I'm a mapper, i like the art thing more in my map, this is without doubt, but i don't want to force people to think that way. (so yeah force skin is not a good idea.)

For now, it takes no longer than 10 seconds for people to delete it, so if they want the gameplay, hehe, just do it why not.
I agree with the last sentence you have, but it's more a mappers preference. instead of "this map is just based on mapper so you should follow everything", why not let every player choose. i know it's kinda against the main idea of the coming osz2, but here's maybe one way to solve. also i never delete BG/SB/skin stuffs myself, but in previous posts, you could see that's what majority is doing.

Using crippling skins with the expectation that players will delete them is a bad attitude. peppy wants skins to be irremovable, and they're going to be very shortly. You should choose your map skins with the expectation that EVERY player is going to have to play with them, and be considerate.

I often delete skins but i have no problem with any of the wowarin skins so...

I agree my method is not ideal either, and truly your maps are works of art, I just don't find they play well (many others don't mind it. The skin isn't crippling to them, clearly.)

One nice thing about forcing a skin (which by the way is not really "forcing" because anyone can go in and change that skin later if they so desire, and I should hope this remains the same in osz2) is that it completely bypasses the ranking guidelines.

The wowaka skin has hitbursts which under the new ranking guidelines are/should be unrankable. If you force a skin rather than including the elements in the map, you can also change things like slider preference and slider track override, which you can't do if the skin is in the map (again a limitation of osu!). I like peppy sliders better, but for stacked maps, mm sliders work much better, since they're more transparent.

I think the majority of people don't care about skin issues, and a few are quite vocal about their skin preference, even though I guarantee most of them don't bother to change the skin if the skin isn't especially bad.

It's too bad we can't have a skin.ini in the map itself which holds all this stuff and would remain editable and rankable.

Why does stuff get denied even tho most people support it

If most people supported jumping off a bridge, is it still a good idea?

RemmyX25 wrote:

If most people supported jumping off a bridge, is it still a good idea?

Depends on who you're talking that thinks it's a good idea ;P

If people support it, why should it be denied? Just because you admins/devs don't like it? :/

RemmyX25 wrote:

If most people supported jumping off a bridge, is it still a good idea?

If the majority want's it, it may be a good idea.

To keep a game running you need to satisfy the majority

RemmyX25 wrote:

If most people supported jumping off a bridge, is it still a good idea?

That analogy is completely retarded and unrelated to this issue.
One results in one's death where the other only changes gameplay.

shifted this back to feature requests pending more discussion

there is certainly some merit to this idea and it may be a feature worth investigating. fundamentally though, whatever combo colours a map has should be mediated before it is ranked in the first place. you can also alter custom skin default colours clientside by editing skin.ini

This should be reserved to maps which combo colours were categorized as blending with the background.

EDIT: I didn't think of it at first, but that would be very handy for colour blind people.

This would be handy to lots of people, not obligatory colour-blind.

Visual perception differs a lot.

TKiller wrote:

Visual perception differs a lot.

That's why the feature request here. now every ranked map force people to get used to one of the color sets, some sets that is acceptable to most people could be a "good" set, the ones most people consider "blending" would become hard to read. But there're lots of exceptions, like JesusYamato and myself, could read the wowaka serie maps perfectly, but we may feel uncomfortable to read some shining colors.

Another point is, sometimes mapper use combo color as part of the art effect (because it affects the least to gameplay), he thinks it won't make too much difference for players, but some players may not think so. This could benefit both those "gameplay first" players also the mapper. Mapper could still show people what he want in his map, and players that see art as nothing could easily get the score they want. i don't know why one side of them has to compromise to another, here's just a way to make both side the winner.

and... why the nuke icon still here?

RemmyX25 wrote:

If most people supported jumping off a bridge, is it still a good idea?

You are ridiculous and so are your analogies, just felt like putting this out there, the others explained why pretty well;


My only problem with this request is that a select few maps with fake circles might have their effects ruined a bit if the combo colours are changed in those maps (fake circles and real ones differ in colours). But it is a decent solution, as what one perceives as hard to see and what another one perceives so can differ quite a lot, and a compromise between all these views is hard to get even with thorough modding.

Letting the player play the map once the way the mapper intended it and then allowing them to change the combo colours, similar to the suggested storyboard toggle sounds like a good compromise between mapper and player for me. Not every map will have custom colours, and not all of these wil have ones thatl blend in with the background so much that you have to use your own colours. Playing the map once then won't kill too much of the player's time in the big picture. That's my suggestion anyways.

Why not have a "bland mod" which becomes unlocked once you play the map? It would remove the storyboard, background, skins, colours--basically everything.

I'd like to see the mapper set a second set of combocolors. That way, the player could choose between set one or set two.
Both sets shouldn't be completely the same and if a second set isn't defined, that one gets the same colors as the custom skin the player is using.

Of course I'm just dreaming and all. Oh, and I kinda support this, specially for colourblind people out there.

mm201 wrote:

Why not have a "bland mod" which becomes unlocked once you play the map? It would remove the storyboard, background, skins, colours--basically everything.

I guess it sounds really cool to some people (not including myself though). extend this topic a bit, we know osz2 won't allow people to change BG/video/SB elements, so what about this:

Players could decide whether to extract the osz2 file or not after he played (or say have a score on it) a map, through the editor. This thing works for all ranked/approved map. We keep pending maps as a flexible .osz and easy for people to mod/test, just remake it to .osz2 file when the map goes to ranked/approved. The duty belongs to the BAT who rank/approve the map.

Edit: In this way, coule combo color thing be a unique .txt file, with every diff and its color on it, for people to change? I don't know programming much so... possible?

I think it would be nice to have an option in probably the mod selection screen that says:
After map is played once, disable:
[ ] Storyboard
[ ] Skin
[ ] Background
[ ] Custom Colors

Or something like that.

First of all, I think that this kind of stuff is really rude for the mappers that put so much effort in the design of their maps.

There are many mappers that spend several hours designing a Skin/SB, even picking the right BG/Combo Colours for their maps. Now, knowing that players will simply throw their work to the 'recycle bin' is really sad.

The combo colors issue should be fixed in the modding process therefore, I don't see any reasons to implement such things. Also, I wonder if there are recently ranked maps with that problem.

About the old maps, I think that there are some BATs that can 'haxsubmit' some of those maps and fix them, if it's really necessary.

It's probably the fact. Mappers always want to keep their will, show people what they want, but the reality is pretty cruel, "osu is a game not art", "why do you bother to make them?", "it just hurt my eyes".
And one lol thing is this even happen in the mappers community, "osu is a game not art blablabla". I don't think these mappers will care about their BG/combo color/SB/video, but i do, some other mappers do (Gonzvlo is probably one).

It will be... yeah, a compromise, from some mappers, to those players and mappers don't respect the art thing. before they become the majority of the community (i doubt if they already are) and start to force mappers delete everything affect their "gameplay". it's probably the best answer i could find now, not to hurt both the side.

Edit:
@Gonzvlo: Now the delete BG thing happens a lot, do you think it's a fine solution to just pack them to a not-able-to-change osz2? i don't.
Also as we proved, combo color thing is really different from people to people, so how to "fix" since there's no real errors but mainly subjective issues.

Well in that case, a better solution might be to let the mapper decide whether their visual elements are optional or not. This way if the mapper doesn't really care if the player doesn't use it, then they don't have to worry but mappers who want their storyboard/skins/stuff played with can have that work too.

SapphireGhost wrote:

Well in that case, a better solution might be to let the mapper decide whether their visual elements are optional or not. This way if the mapper doesn't really care if the player doesn't use it, then they don't have to worry but mappers who want their storyboard/skins/stuff played with can have that work too.

so great.

SapphireGhost wrote:

Well in that case, a better solution might be to let the mapper decide whether their visual elements are optional or not. This way if the mapper doesn't really care if the player doesn't use it, then they don't have to worry but mappers who want their storyboard/skins/stuff played with can have that work too.

+1

NatsumeRin wrote:

@Gonzvlo:
Also as we proved, combo color thing is really different from people to people, so how to "fix" since there's no real errors but mainly subjective issues.

I thought we were talking about "The right to change Combo Colours" because some of them might blend with the "BG" or because some are confusing while playing. That sounds like an "error" that should be fixed in the modding process, like I said before.
Sorry if I misunderstood the objective of this feature request.

Sapphire's idea sounds nice, ilu.

With Sapphire's idea I can see it coming that mappers who don't add the option are instantly flamed to death and the maps are down-voted =/
But if the community is actually mature enough to accept a few unchangable maps, I'd be all for it ^^

First was storyboards, then skins, then backgrounds and now combo colours too...

this has no end =/ i imagine the next will be what, disable the mp3?

and blending isnt subjective, or tell me you can see black approach circles (0,0,0) on black background (0,0,0)?
I dont even know how this request has a star icon, but yeah, that's my opinion on it

Sakura Hana wrote:

I dont even know how this request has a star icon, but yeah, that's my opinion on it

It was 'Denied' but then moved back to 'Pending Requests'. I guess it needs an icon, lol.

Gonzvlo wrote:

Sakura Hana wrote:

I dont even know how this request has a star icon, but yeah, that's my opinion on it

It was 'Denied' but then moved back to 'Pending Requests'. I guess it needs an icon, lol.

No, actually they could just have removed the nuke icon and left no icon, but whatever anyways, this is going off-topic so yeah

Luna wrote:

With Sapphire's idea I can see it coming that mappers who don't add the option are instantly flamed to death and the maps are down-voted =/
But if the community is actually mature enough to accept a few unchangable maps, I'd be all for it ^^

That's quite a big ask.

To be honest, I think SapphireGhost's idea hit it on the head. If players can't accept that it's a mappers right to make their maps how they want them to be, said players should map themselves to see how fun it is catering for everyone. Making this an optional feature would help create a balance where hopefully players will be satisfied.

Why this feature request is needed is because:

Now, we are about to have many rules/guidelines we never had before, to limit the BG/SB elements/Combo Color, why do we even do that? We're trying to make all players happy, let all of them could enjoy the fun of a certain map. But this thing in fact reduced the possibility of a map, may leads to a total decrease of map quality (just a small part though)

So what if we throw this question to the players? if we are trying to make them happy, why not let players to decide? Mappers who want to keep his map as what he want could still do it, which do no harm to current system, but some more players could benefit from this new feature, some of the mappers (like myself) won't be under the pressure of "hey you can't do this".

So why not?

It is impossible to make everybody in a given commmunity happy with what they have. That being said, I didn't say I disagree with you. I just think this would be better off as an optional setting specified by the mapper, rather than giving players complete control over the combo colours.

Mapsets are pieces of art, let the mappers use the combo colours they want and they must be played by the p--- oh wait, it disturbs players, since it blends with the background, since this is a game too, not just art.

Now you see why those rules and guidelines are needed, remember that this is a game, so you must compromise your art to make the game fairly playable to everyone, even if that means that you must change your combo colours on your map so they dont blend with the background.

My position still stands, this request is unnecessary, mappers have the right to get their maps played the way they intended them to be played. And it's the modders job to make sure the maps are playable by the players BEFORE they get ranked, if issues like this slip by, then there was a problem during the modding process of the beatmap that wasn't addressed, and the people involved should have pointed it out.

Instead of trying to change the colors for players, tell the mappers the blending colours during the modding process, so they can change it and it doesn't happen again.

Now you see why those rules and guidelines are needed, remember that this is a game, so you must compromise your art to make the game fairly playable to everyone, even if that means that you must change your combo colours on your map so they dont blend with the background.

After this feature added, it's still fairly playable to everyone. "You need to comprise to rules" ---- No, better to change this sentence to "You need to comprise to players". Because Rule is to serve players (don't tell me it's not.)

My position still stands, this request is unnecessary, mappers have the right to get their maps played the way they intended them to be played.

They could still have the right to "get their maps played the way they intended them to be played", based on SapphireGhost's suggestion, give mappers the right to decide whether it's optional or not.

NatsumeRin wrote:

After this feature added, it's still fairly playable to everyone. "You need to comprise to rules" ---- No, better to change this sentence to "You need to comprise to players". Because Rule is to serve players (don't tell me it's not.)

You're right, they are

NatsumeRin wrote:

They could still have the right to "get their maps played the way they intended them to be played", based on SapphireGhost's suggestion, give mappers the right to decide whether it's optional or not.

That still doesnt show a "need" for the toggle to be there in the first place, its completely unnecessary.

I think this will explain well enough.

Art More Mappers, and all the modders, will certainly benefit from this new feature.

the Gameplay More Players, have to play the map once to get to the option, which do little harm to them. But im pretty sure the whole mapper community would like to see this.

The advantages is really much more than disadvantages.

Edit: in fact there's more... such as:
If you are a mapper and put gameplay the first place, you SHOULD let players decide the combo color, since you can't know them better than themselves. They will have more fun (at least, equal fun), with their own custom colors.
If you are a player at the point between Art and Gameplay, you may want to enjoy the map sometimes, while get a nice score at another time. and with the new feature it's easily to change.
If you are a mapper and think Art is more important, you will be happy (not that happy... happier maybe) to know your map will be played as your wish at least once, instead of the current situation: they will be deleted once the are extract from .osz file to a folder.

opinions?

That still doesnt show a "need" for the toggle to be there in the first place, its completely unnecessary.

Not unnecessary for a lot of players.
Not in this case myself but what about players that are color blind?

Colorblind people are completely unnecessary.

I'm color blind and with some colors its like I'm playing certain maps on hidden because approaches blend in with backgrounds, etc Not to mention just bad color combo's and colors + backgrounds.

There's a point where game play needs to come before someone who wants their map to look pretty. Aesthetics should not come first. I'm not really sure why a mapper would get upset by changing the color scheme on combos and see no reason why we shouldn't be able to change them.

I understand some of these people spend many hours on their maps, that's no reason for them to spend only 5 minutes thinking about what skins/backgrounds to copy and paste into them and not be sure they don't interfere with the users experience of the game.

At the very least the combo colors should not clash with the backgrounds, should be mapper rule IMO.

Right now, there are more people that are gameplay oriented than mappers

We just need to accept the fact that mappers are the minority, but have more power since most of them have mod/admin powers

So we want to ask you kindly, because sometimes, players want to do a really good score, and 0 distraction would really, really help

I know most of the mappers don't play alot or don't try to rank double time songs/hardrock, but please just think about it once


Also : I knew a friend, which was colorblind also, this would REALLY REALLY help her to enjoy the game

I thank you for posting this suggestion Natsume. I think this would easily solve issues of BG blending as well as what Xact says about some users being colour blind.

Xact wrote:

At the very least the combo colors should not clash with the backgrounds, should be mapper rule IMO.

It already is. Maps with poor contrast shouldn't be getting ranked in the first place.
Colour blindness is irrelevant since motion is only strongly perceived in the luma domain anyway. Approach circles with low luma contrast will be hard to see for everyone.

If a map has awful combo colours, point it out in the map's thread and get a BAT to change it.

NatsumeRin wrote:

opinions?

Yes. Art More maps should be nuked on the spot. Gameplay More players should suck it up. Your "modders don't need to check for awful colours" idea is very concerning.

mm201 wrote:

Yes. Art More maps should be nuked on the spot. Gameplay More players should suck it up. Your "modders don't need to check for awful colours" idea is very concerning.

This shouldn't be words saying by a dev. As i know what we should do is to make all players happy (though it's impossible to please everyone, but let's say most then), not make only you happy, so stop the subjective comments.

Edit: check it in a objective way plz, does the new feature benefit more people? if yes, what's your point on stopping this? your personal preference? Also, learn to be polite and choose your words, thanks.

Gameplay More players should suck it up

It's interesting to see how little the devs think of the competitive players. And you expect us to sit silently and accept everything you impose on us?
This game was made popular by the players not by the devs.

This problem is very simple.

Mapper have rights to let player play map with mapper's own setting ( include AR SB Skin )
vs
Player can choose how to play except the width of judgment and overall difficulty , etc etc ( core elements of map)


First of all, there is no difference between player mapper modder bat mat devs.
(devs could be exclude from this , but still remind this )

dvorak wrote:

This problem is very simple.

Mapper have rights to let player play map with mapper's own setting ( include AR SB Skin )
vs
Player can choose how to play except the width of judgment and overall difficulty , etc etc ( core elements of map)

emm i don't think it's only that. this feature aims to get a point between the two sides and benefit both of them.

dvorak wrote:

First of all, there is no difference between player mapper modder bat mat devs.
(devs could be exclude from this , but still remind this )

That's it.

You asked for opinions, I gave you one.
If it was my say, I'd add it. I don't really care.

This doesn't change the fact that mappers who are inconsiderate of players are doing something wrong. (a map made with no attention to gameplay SHOULD be nuked)
Likewise, players who rely on the fake skill of disabling skins by no means oblige us to add more fake skill elements for them to abuse.

mm201 wrote:

This doesn't change the fact that mappers who are inconsiderate of players are doing something wrong. (a map made with no attention to gameplay SHOULD be nuked)

I could agree with this. but it's still hard to draw a line of what is "inconsiderate of players"

mm201 wrote:

Likewise, players who rely on the fake skill of disabling skins by no means oblige us to add more fake skill elements for them to abuse.

Personally i'm one of those who never delete any elements of a map, but as we all know, it happens a lot, more and more people start to do this, so before they start to act in maps, (things like "Your SB makes me blind, why do you even bother to make it?") we may need some ideas to stop the potential flames.

in that "example", could you say the mapper is inconsiderate of players? i guess not, because there can't be a totally objective way to judge. since things happens this way, why not try to solve at a neutral point.


Edit: @Ever17, check SapphireGhost's post.

Why not a "mod" before the beatmap get ranked where it "ask" if they want to allow players or not to disable some of the skins elements?. So at least, it depends on the mapper to give the "right" or not to make players able to change it.

Sorry if I said something not concerning to this feature.

NatsumeRin wrote:

If we put a rule "No combo colors should be blend to the BG/video/SB/whatever", it's still a subjective thing, and really hard to draw a line to limit those.

I don't see how it's a subjective thing when it can actually be measured

/' I'm not blaming anyone. '/

peppy already showed one solution for Skin disable option thread.

Ever17 wrote:

Why not a "mod" before the beatmap get ranked where it "ask" if they want to allow players or not to disable some of the skins elements?. So at least, it depends on the mapper to give the "right" or not to make players able to change it.

It won't solve problem, it will make new problem.

We should choose disable all, enable all, enable after xxx, etc, need to make one rule for whole map.

Ever17 wrote:

Why not a "mod" before the beatmap get ranked where it "ask" if they want to allow players or not to disable some of the skins elements?. So at least, it depends on the mapper to give the "right" or not to make players able to change it.

This basically amounts to a checkbox which states "I created a horrible atrocity which no one will want to see." (inb4 I get misunderstood again)

In other words, opinions on what's playable/unplayable differ from player to player, but when it's the very creator who makes the judgement call, either they think their map is fine and will leave this field unchecked or they think something's wrong with it and check the field.
Alternatively, a mapper may think "power to the players!" and check the field all the time.
In either case, it doesn't get used for its intended purpose.

like all controversial feature requests, we're talking about less than 5% of beatmaps, and that number is steadily decreasing. I don't mind the crappy skin/color maps: I vote 1 and move right along.

awp wrote:

NatsumeRin wrote:

If we put a rule "No combo colors should be blend to the BG/video/SB/whatever", it's still a subjective thing, and really hard to draw a line to limit those.

I don't see how it's a subjective thing when it can actually be measured

1) it's hard to measure
2) at what difference are the colors good enough?
3) what is the % color reduction in the background dim?



While this one is pretty clearly too close, I can actually tell fairly well where this note is whenever I play.

ziin wrote:

While this one is pretty clearly too close, I can actually tell fairly well where this note is whenever I play.

Well, in that example, the approach circle is still transparent. So while the beatmap might be a suitable example, that image doesn't provide helpful information.

As for measurement, it's very easy. The combo colours themselves are recorded in the .osu files, and to check them against a background image you just throw the image into an editor such as photoshop, index the colours so that the prominent ones pop out, then measure the colour and diff the RGB values from the combo colours.

Now video, that's a bit tricky. Good thing you can disable those through the UI.

Well you can always edit the colours on the new combos to skip some colors so to avoid blending with certain video sections

NO WAY. But it would be nice if there was a "I'M COLORBLIND" button.

awp wrote:

then measure the colour and diff the RGB values from the combo colours.

So are you talking on a channel to channel basis?

Because +33, +33, +33 isn't much difference, but +99, +0, +0 is pretty huge. Trying to figure out where the limits of what's acceptable is the problem. I agree you can measure it, but the one on the right is much easier to see than the one on the left, and if I did +0,+0,+99, that's even harder to see.

How about "use your head?" oh wait, that has since long stopped working which is why there needs to be rules discussed, but yeah really, im impressed this topic was even created, it's pretty easy to know what you didnt see because it was too hard to see.

mm201 wrote:

Ever17 wrote:

Why not a "mod" before the beatmap get ranked where it "ask" if they want to allow players or not to disable some of the skins elements?. So at least, it depends on the mapper to give the "right" or not to make players able to change it.

This basically amounts to a checkbox which states "I created a horrible atrocity which no one will want to see." (inb4 I get misunderstood again)

In other words, opinions on what's playable/unplayable differ from player to player, but when it's the very creator who makes the judgement call, either they think their map is fine and will leave this field unchecked or they think something's wrong with it and check the field.
Alternatively, a mapper may think "power to the players!" and check the field all the time.
In either case, it doesn't get used for its intended purpose.

I'd like to politely disagree. I think that it would be better for the mapper to give players a choice on how they would like to experience the beatmap, and I know that sometimes I enjoy making storyboards but if someone doesn't want to see that storyboard, I would not want to force them to see it. But you're free to disagree with me ~

Basically you fit into category 2, the mappers who would always check it because they like giving players the option.

Sakura Hana wrote:

How about "use your head?" oh wait, that has since long stopped working which is why there needs to be rules discussed, but yeah really, im impressed this topic was even created, it's pretty easy to know what you didnt see because it was too hard to see.

You must be fucking kidding me.

Oh, woops, I couldn't see this note because it's exactly same color as BG! Woops, I must be a retard!

Blame the ma--wait no, blame the BAT who ranked it.

mm201 wrote:

Blame the ma--wait no, blame the BAT who ranked it.

As far as I know, this thread wasn't created only to stop new maps from being ranked, but old maps that don't make any sense on their colours, like Chocobo with the black circle.

So uh, I would like to know your opinion on these maps.

Blue Dragon wrote:

mm201 wrote:

Blame the ma--wait no, blame the BAT who ranked it.

As far as I know, this thread wasn't created only to stop new maps from being ranked, but old maps that don't make any sense on their colours, like Chocobo with the black circle.

So uh, I would like to know your opinion on these maps.

Hax submit?

In either case BD, you totally misunderstood what i said, im not calling anyone a retard, rather im saying that you must use your head when modding to see what's good and what's not good, if there's a problem it should be addressed during the modding phase, but most players that play pending maps go "lol star" rather than finding these issues with the maps and mentioning them, they may earn their first ever kudosu for doing so, however they dont, and when maps get ranked, they complain.

If there's such a big problem with a distracting storyboard, skin, etc, just go ahead to the beatmap thread and say it before it gets ranked, if it's too much of a problem it could be unranked, then loss of scores, and thread becomes drama (i still love how i pointed out blending colors on this map by directly PMing some BATs on the day it got ranked and no one did anything so im not sure if they care or not now, but really pink over pink?)

Instead of trying to fix what's not broken, why not prevent the blending colours from getting ranked, which is the whole reason the rule was created in the first place.

Seems Sakura Hana still don't get the idea.

It means, a general solution for the combo color thing, included the maps will be ranked, also the maps got ranked before. If you insist to "fix" combo color/SB/BG before a map get ranked or even bother to unrank them, have you ever considered, will those "fixed elements" be suitable for all players? it's still opinions by one or two people, or a little group, it's just turns "let mapper decide" to "let modders decide", no really difference here, because there's still no choice leaves for players and they have to deal with it. it's impossible for 100% players to feel comfortable about those elements.

According to what the request is going now, we could still leave the right "if the map is optional" to mappers and if the mapper is not willing to change, he could still keeps what he want to show. This feature really improves sth without hurt someone.

I could agree that mappers should have some "special right" just because they're mappers (i'm a mapper myself, yeah), spends days or even weeks to make a map, so he could decide "if it's optional". But in Sakura's way, why a certain modder is so special and have the right to force others use the "probably fit" color? If we decide to change, should players' opinion be the first place to consider about? They will decide what's the colors fit themselves for sure.

The problem is (if you disagree with these things just say it plz):
1. We all agree mappers should have some rights to handle his own maps.
2. We all agree players' feeling must be considered.
3. We need a point between this to get all things work fine.
4. No, it's not only modders. If the mapper have no right to force players, the modders shouldn't even think about that. So this is what the feature stands.

Players feelings are considered... they are welcome to mod the map anytime before it gets ranked.

What i mean is, why are you trying to fix something that is not broken

Sakura Hana wrote:

Players feelings are considered... they are welcome to mod the map anytime before it gets ranked.

What i mean is, why are you trying to fix something that is not broken

Not really, you have to admit "players" and "modders" are probably 2 separated groups. 90% of the players won't play a map that's not ranked. And this is why now mappers treat "rank" so seriously.

So in your way, The 90%'s feeling is not considered, really. And i guess 90% is probably less than the real number.

the fact that they dont, doesnt mean that they cant.

Edit: If players really wanted to voice their opinions on maps, they really would mod them before they are ranked, so they can play them in peace without anything bothering them, and the way the mapper intentended them to be played, both players and mappers can come to an agreement on what fits both for the mapper's criteria and the player's gameplay so the map can be the best it can for both the mapper and the players.
But since like players dont want to ever touch pending maps, so they dont want to voice their opinions when the maps can still be changed, rather they voice their opinion when nothing can be done.

Do we solve things based on the fact, or "they could and they should"?

Edit: In this feature, everything could be done after it's ranked. Players could still get what mappers intend the map to be (they have to play the map once to get the option). Players could change things fit themselves perfectly, which is obvious a better solution to force all players use the same color (if we're talking about gameplay). So what will leave you unsatisfied?

If they can play a pending map, and voice their opinion to the mapper already, i dont see why we should let them have control of the combo colours. It's obvious this is going to be a pointless argument between you and me, so i'll refrain from posting any further, i already have given my point and you gave yours, we just disagree with each other.

Oh also something i forgot: players are already modding the maps, the only difference is that we dont call them players anymore ^^;; are are you telling me that modders dont play?

Sakura Hana wrote:

If they can play a pending map, and voice their opinion to the mapper already, i dont see why we should let them have control of the combo colours.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Players could change things fit themselves perfectly, which is obvious a better solution to force all players use the same color (if we're talking about gameplay)

Sakura Hana wrote:

i already have given my point and you gave yours

i think i answered all your questions but you didn't give me even one.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Oh also something i forgot: players are already modding the maps, the only difference is that we dont call them players anymore ^^;; are are you telling me that modders dont play?

They play, of course. We often consider modders as "a small part of players, who has better playing skills and mapping skills in general". But if we are talking about combo color, i guess we should emphesis on the "small part".

NatsumeRin wrote:

It means, a general solution for the combo color thing, included the maps will be ranked, also the maps got ranked before.

This policy is inviting mappers to continue choosing bad combo colours, which, if anything, adds to the problem instead of making it better.

NatsumeRin wrote:

If you insist to "fix" combo color/SB/BG before a map get ranked or even bother to unrank them, have you ever considered, will those "fixed elements" be suitable for all players? it's still opinions by one or two people, or a little group, it's just turns "let mapper decide" to "let modders decide", no really difference here, because there's still no choice leaves for players and they have to deal with it. it's impossible for 100% players to feel comfortable about those elements.

Chooosing high-contrast colours that fit with the map's theme isn't hard.

NatsumeRin wrote:

The problem is (if you disagree with these things just say it plz):
1. We all agree mappers should have some rights to handle his own maps.
2. We all agree players' feeling must be considered.
3. We need a point between this to get all things work fine.
4. No, it's not only modders. If the mapper have no right to force players, the modders shouldn't even think about that. So this is what the feature stands.

The correct answer is, the mappers and players need to reach a compromise. The mappers need to be considerate of the players and choose high contrast colour themes. "My song is about a ghost" is not an excuse to use transparent hitcircles. The players need to be considerate of the artistic work that went into the map and not insist on using VIBRANT SUPER GREEN #38 WHICH IS SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN TO PROVIDE A .001% FASTER RETINAL RESPONSE coloured circles in every map they play. The objective of the approval process is to make this a reality.

Allowing players to set their own colours pulls these two groups apart and encourages them to get in each other's way instead of help each other.

mm201 wrote:

This policy is inviting mappers to continue choosing bad combo colours, which, if anything, adds to the problem instead of making it better.

So what's wrong with it? I think i already gave the solution after that. If both players and mappers feel better, what's the point of thinking "adds to the problem instead of making it better?

mm201 wrote:

Chooosing high-contrast colours that fit with the map's theme isn't hard.

No, sometimes it can't be. Just use my wowaka series as example, including combo color change with PV, i think it's just impossible to choose another set of combo color to fit the theme better. Or do you think i should just "compromise" instead of making the best map i can.

mm201 wrote:

Allowing players to set their own colours pulls these two groups apart and encourages them to get in each other's way instead of help each other.

Again, yes, they may. But in the time before, they step on the same way, if mappers keeping to step forth, players has to choose "back". So at the very end we'll see the two side keep a compromise in somewhere around the middle point. But in this feature request, they can get in each other's way, step further than they did, which will make them happy. I still think the main point is to change things and make all players happy, not keeping a rule in the head and use the rule to explain all the things.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Or do you think i should just "compromise" instead of making the best map i can.

Now you're getting it!

(Although I'm a bit disappointed that your concept of "best" doesn't consider the players.)

NatsumeRin wrote:

But in this feature request, they can get in each other's way, step further than they did, which will make them happy.

Suppose I don't want to have to resort to disabling colours (or custom skins, storyboards, ..., same deal) to be able to play a map. Suppose I want to play them as the mappers intended. If there are no regulations on combo colour/skin/storyboard contrast and visibility, I may not be able to do this.

Disabling things shouldn't be necessary to enjoy the game.

I'm afraid that if I used an option like this I'd end up picking colors that occasionally blend more with the background than the original ones would have... I use yellow in tag coop and every now and then I find myself wishing I had picked another color instead.

Not really a huge fan of this request as a whole (it breaks Fear Factory ), but I wouldn't object to it being implemented I guess.

1. Let mappers do their best, let players do their best.
2. LET'S COMPROMISE!

What's the point you even think about option 2....?

Disabling things shouldn't be necessary to enjoy the game. But what if it start to make most players and mappers feel better? It's unnecessary, but will be useful. And we still should ban it because of unnecessary? Do you remember Faraday and electricity?

(1) is an ideal, but an impractical one, because different people have different concepts of what's best. Finding common ground is necessary to make something that everyone can enjoy. It's not always possible for everyone to have their way.

Yeah it wouldn't hurt much to add something like this but it's still not my say. peppy has made it clear that he doesn't want disablers for anything related to skinning and I'm not going against that.

mm201 wrote:

(1) is an ideal, but an impractical one, because different people have different concepts of what's best. Finding common ground is necessary to make something that everyone can enjoy. It's not always possible for everyone to have their way.

Not really, at least we get more close to the ideal with the feature, because... different people have different concepts of what's best.

mm201 wrote:

Yeah it wouldn't hurt much to add something like this but it's still not my say. peppy has made it clear that he doesn't want disablers for anything related to skinning and I'm not going against that.

If it's peppy's will i can't say much about it. Maybe let the discussion continues a while and see if peppy would like to change his idea.

Let's throw a wrench in the works: Suppose my ideal is that I should be able to play every map with its custom skin and like it. This feature now makes my gameplay experience worse.

mm201 wrote:

Let's throw a wrench in the works: Suppose my ideal is that I should be able to play every map with its custom skin and like it. This feature now makes my gameplay experience worse.

It stays the same since one of the option is to keep it as original, don't forget it plz?

NatsumeRin wrote:

mm201 wrote:

Let's throw a wrench in the works: Suppose my ideal is that I should be able to play every map with its custom skin and like it. This feature now makes my gameplay experience worse.

It stays the same since one of the option is to keep it as original, don't forget it plz?

And should we assume all mappers will use that?

But it goes back to my earlier point, that this would imply removing quality control from object colour choice, allowing mappers to choose difficult-to-see colours.

^that's not quite what mm meant.
The important part is the "and like it" which expresses his concern that the colors the mapper chooses might be (nearly) unplayable because mappers will just assume that players can change them anyway~
/E: Too late \:D/

All this idea is going on assumptions, all of the supporters are assuming the mappers will let players play their colours, while others can be assuming all mappers are going to choose to keep their colours.

All in all this is only a way to justify "Im too lazy to check if colours blend with the background" which is probably one of the most easy checks in a map.

This is just going against the reasoning behind the modding phase of beatmaps, as i said problems like these should be addressed during the modding phase of the beatmap.

And before you bring colour blind people into the equation, take in mind that even colour blind people can distinguish dark from light, so as long as colours contrast there shouldnt be a problem at all.

@Sakura: Probably. i'm one of the "Art More Mappers', a quite strong one among them. i don't dare to turn it off, i already have enough flames.

@mm201:The "quality control" is still a way, to let players feel better when they playing. If we can reach the final point in another way, those middlepoints could be dropped for sure.

Edit: @Sakura: do you even bother to read through the thread then start to speak? thanks.
Give me a clear reason why you against it, not saying "i'm right, i'm always right" again and again.

NatsumeRin wrote:

If you are a mapper and put gameplay the first place, you SHOULD let players decide the combo color, since you can't know them better than themselves. They will have more fun (at least, equal fun), with their own custom colors.

If you are a player at the point between Art and Gameplay, you may want to enjoy the map sometimes, while get a nice score at another time. and with the new feature it's easily to change.

If you are a mapper and think Art is more important, you will be happy (not that happy... happier maybe) to know your map will be played as your wish at least once, instead of the current situation: they will be deleted once the are extract from .osz file to a folder.

You missed my point. I was considering a player who feels bad because they need to turn off map colours. They don't want to be forced to turn things off just to be able to play. It makes them feel bad. This attitude may be a bit unreasonable, but so is expecting to be allowed to use any and all colours of your choosing.

I also don't exactly understand why you want to use low-contrast colours so much.

Building on your chart, let's consider:

The connecting lines show what kinds of maps different mappers will create, and what kinds of maps different players will enjoy.
Balanced mappers can create maps approachable to both ArtMore and GameplayMore players. Likewise, balanced players will be able to approach most kinds of maps. (In reality, there are way more variables than this, but it provides the basics.)

The message here? Everyone should strive for balance! If mappers are mapping for the community, and not for themselves, they'll try to make maps that strike a balance between art and gameplay to maximize the enjoyment to the widest audience. (inb4mainstreamfaggotry)

NatsumeRin wrote:

Stuff too big to quote entirely

I'm not saying im always right, all im telling you is to not fix what's not broken.

If a fix is needed is with the modders themselves for letting things like these slip by, the game is not what is broken there's no need to change the game at all.

i think i get your point now.... but, that in fact explains why the maps are becoming similar now, which leads to another question: do you think it would be better if all map becomes similar? (now it's probably a trend, mainstreamftw) I just can't agree with that. (btw, this model is really like the one used in political science, but it's not similar because balance is probably not the best answer here.)

Everyone should strive for balance! Yeah, if they treat "how will the community judge my map" more than "how i feel about the map myself"... It doesn't make much sense imo. If just few styles left, osu must be less interesting then. Not like in political science, in which balance leads to "safe".

For the combo color thing, i guess we just have really different value about aesthetic.

Edit: @Sakura: you're repeating your point again now. i'll reply to you when you could read my point and give your idea to it. (I already comment about what's wrong with your point enough i think)

btw, "there's no need to change the game at all." <<It's just silly.

So you say that all maps will be the same? ok let's assume your idea gets accepted, either 1) mappers dont let players choose their colours, which will lead us to this same point, and we did nothing or 2) mappers will let the players choose their colours so they will play every map with the same colours, which makes maps EVEN MORE similar.

As far as efficiency goes, i'd rather see efficiency in the modding process increased, than removing aspects of the modding just because you think modders are incapable of doing their job right since apparently ppl can tell black colours on a black background, or blue colours on a blue background and say they are fine because their appreciation of colours is different.

Basically, and as I hinted at with my inb4, it boils down to the mainstream art debate. Artists don't want their creative visions tainted by the wants of others. It's your right. But may I reiterate that not every beatmap needs to be ranked. People are welcome to upload their maps (here or elsewhere) and link to them without aiming for ranking. Beatmap approval is basically just a stamp that says "this map should have some level of appeal and playability to the majority of players." Also, why do you want your maps ranked other than to draw attention to them?

You could also provide both a toned down version of a map, suitable for ranking, and a version, linked to in the thread, which is more close to your original intentions.

Again, ranking guidelines themselves are compromises between mappers and players.

Sakura Hana wrote:

So you say that all maps will be the same? ok let's assume your idea gets accepted, either 1) mappers dont let players choose their colours, which will lead us to this same point, and we did nothing or 2) mappers will let the players choose their colours so they will play every map with the same colours, which makes maps EVEN MORE similar.

It's "map becoming similar" or "it plays more similar"? The former, is not likely to happen if we have more features encouraging them to develop in a various way (like this one!). The Latter, isn't it what you guys wanted?

@mm201: About to agree here, but the fact is still mappers (even the guys most like artist) still want their map to be ranked. It's not a bad thing to see such maps being ranked if it doesn't go too far. After all, "artist" is not a absolute meaning, everyone has his "artist" characteristic and some "society".

Not at all =/

I respect every mappers' mapping style, and i love to see different styles throughout the modding process, the fact that hitcircles blend with the background entirely relies on the choice of background by the mapper and their combo colour choice, i dont see how asking the mapper to use something different that they also like is restricting them or forcing them to map one way or another

I would hope that a map could stand out by the merit of its mapping, not the frills tacked on like skinning and colours.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Not at all =/

I respect every mappers' mapping style, and i love to see different styles throughout the modding process, the fact that hitcircles blend with the background entirely relies on the choice of background by the mapper and their combo colour choice, i dont see how asking the mapper to use something different that they also like is restricting them or forcing them to map one way or another

Sometimes the solution is the ONLY one. But you probably won't know. In such situations, i could just hope the modder won't force anything to the mapper, it's another topic anyway.

mm201 wrote:

I would hope that a map could stand out by the merit of its mapping, not the frills tacked on like skinning and colours.

True. This is just a small part (which could improve imo), but i really wonder why some MAT/BAT rushed in and think it's so important lol.

NatsumeRin wrote:

Sakura Hana wrote:

Not at all =/

I respect every mappers' mapping style, and i love to see different styles throughout the modding process, the fact that hitcircles blend with the background entirely relies on the choice of background by the mapper and their combo colour choice, i dont see how asking the mapper to use something different that they also like is restricting them or forcing them to map one way or another

Sometimes the solution is the ONLY one. But you probably won't know. In such situations, i could just hope the modder won't force anything to the mapper, it's another topic anyway.

If it comes to that i'd be happy to give suggestions that work to the mapper until the mapper is happy

NatsumeRin wrote:

Sometimes the solution is the ONLY one. But you probably won't know. In such situations, i could just hope the modder won't force anything to the mapper, it's another topic anyway.

It's like telling a poem in Spanish to someone who only speaks Japanese. They aren't going to get it. Players aren't going to understand your artistic expression if they can hardly see your map.

I haven't read the whole thread since it's damn long but I think this is absolutely necessary if osz2 is ever gonna be implemented, since there are TONS OF MAPS (even a lot from the thread's creator) that are just very VERY hard to read due to the BG being the same damn color than lots of hits.

Ok wait a second. What's the idea of "maps" to begin with? You make a map and people PLAYS them, and from my pov which is the one from a player who knows NOTHING about mapping, is that players should enjoy a map instead of dealing with stuff they don't like. That's why we actually play, to enjoy the whole thing, now, what's so fun of playing a map with grey hitcircles, grey background, kiai 24/7, flashy SB so you can't see a shit, etc? Nothing. Some people MAY actually like it (I'm pretty sure they're just a few since I've got many friends playing this and most of them if not all rage when playing a retardskinned map where you can't see a thing, and I'm talking about CASUAL players...), but anyways, the best idea would be to let each player to play each map however they want, I don't care if the mapper wanted to "make some artistic map", because I'm not interested in how the map looks but how thet map plays, as well as there is some other people who is interested in the opposite thing, or maybe in both, but in the end by not letting everyone play their way you just get people to not enjoy the game.

Inb4 bad english ftw ye.

And just so you get it guys, nobody plays any "hard" or "fun" map with BG/Skin/SB/Video, whenever I start playing something and like it the first thing I do (if I haven't already) is delete every damn element from the map so I can enjoy it, not that nobody cares but I will and lots of players will keep deleting everything so they can play with black/grey/whatever BG and their own skin (some even delete hitsounds I'm sure).

Wishy22: Old maps that can be considered hard to read due to it, can be easily force updated to change the combo colours, what we need to do is prevent those things from now on...

-- Spanish version just in case / Version en español por si acaso ----

Wishy22: Los mapas viejos que pueden ser considerados dificiles de leer debido a los colores, pueden ser facilmente forzados a hacer update para cambiar los colores, lo que necesitamos hacer es prevenir que esas cosas ocurran de ahora en adelante.

updated? let's assume only 5% of the maps use "blending" colors, another 5% have other visual elements makes people "uncomfortable", you need to fix 500 maps then. Why don't you even think about another way? just to show your power hah?

Edit: this is kinda harsh, but i think you should stop and think, not going as a tail of all "rules"

Edit2: and let's assume 10% of those maps use this for certain art effects and did good. You break 50 good maps then. Great job lady.

NatsumeRin wrote:

updated? let's assume only 5% of the maps use "blending" colors, another 5% have other visual elements makes people "uncomfortable", you need to fix 500 maps then. Why don't you even think about another way? just to show your power hah?

Edit: this is kinda harsh, but i think you should stop and think, not going as a tail of all "rules"

Edit2: and let's assume 10% of those maps use this for certain art effects and did good. You break 50 good maps then. Great job lady.

Not like your idea would fix it either you know, im not showing any power, im just showing my opinion on the matter

WHY CAN'T IT FIX?

oh damn, i guess i have explained it long enough and well enough?