Kind of agree.TKiller wrote:
And without scoring it's just the same as going to editor and changing it here.
Well except people won't be able to spectate you.
Duh.
forum
Make Approach Rate function for user definable option
posted
Total Posts
391
Do you support user-definable AR in ranked play?
Total votes: 189
Polling ended
This idea is preposterous to me. AR has effect for map's difficulty absolutely.
actually, some map has fast and complex combos, high density of notes, but it has low AR(OD) intentionally. this kind of intentionall low AR can makes player's confusion. on the contrary to this, low density of note and High AR can makes difficuty. This Request can breaks these intentionall difficulty of the map. NOT FOR ART, FOR ITS DIFFICULTY.
well, but in same time, yeah. I can say this idea is interesting.
however, AR has effect for map's difficulty cleary. so I suggest these if you want using this option and ranking your score.
1. The map what is older than this option, can not use this option.
2. If mapper sets AR of the map with his intentionall, mapper can use 'locking AR option' on that map.
EDIT : And we must think about Stack Leniency of the map. If player use this option freely, some position of stacked notes will be changed because of AR. I think It can makes a lot of broken Replays.
EDIT2 : 'Can use this option freely but not ranked score' can be solution maybe.
actually, some map has fast and complex combos, high density of notes, but it has low AR(OD) intentionally. this kind of intentionall low AR can makes player's confusion. on the contrary to this, low density of note and High AR can makes difficuty. This Request can breaks these intentionall difficulty of the map. NOT FOR ART, FOR ITS DIFFICULTY.
well, but in same time, yeah. I can say this idea is interesting.
however, AR has effect for map's difficulty cleary. so I suggest these if you want using this option and ranking your score.
1. The map what is older than this option, can not use this option.
2. If mapper sets AR of the map with his intentionall, mapper can use 'locking AR option' on that map.
EDIT : And we must think about Stack Leniency of the map. If player use this option freely, some position of stacked notes will be changed because of AR. I think It can makes a lot of broken Replays.
EDIT2 : 'Can use this option freely but not ranked score' can be solution maybe.
Hell no.
Hmm...I'll mention from a point of view as mapper.
I can understand the opinion that mapper want players to play by its own AR.
However in many case, mapper set AR by thinking that which AR is most readable in this mapset, and which AR is good for beginner/pro in this difficulty imo.
And also I think that it is not a problem to be selected by players.
Therefore I agree with this suggestion.
Well...actually there are some problems about score, hidden mod, etc...
Anyway it's just my opinion.
I can understand the opinion that mapper want players to play by its own AR.
However in many case, mapper set AR by thinking that which AR is most readable in this mapset, and which AR is good for beginner/pro in this difficulty imo.
And also I think that it is not a problem to be selected by players.
Therefore I agree with this suggestion.
Well...actually there are some problems about score, hidden mod, etc...
Anyway it's just my opinion.
Easy makes maps harder, you get a score penalty for it.
Hard makes maps easier, you get a score bonus for it.
And it's only because of approach rate. How the fuck does that make any sense?
This is one of those things that I can't see ever happening though. It could have been done when Approach Rate was separated from Overall Difficulty, but for some reason, it was decided to keep AR on the map side. It's really too bad, as this would make most every map playable, especially the crappy ones made before the AR/OD split.
And really, every single other rhythm game I've ever played, including osu!'s other modes have had a way to adjust approach rate on a user basis.
Hard makes maps easier, you get a score bonus for it.
And it's only because of approach rate. How the fuck does that make any sense?
This is one of those things that I can't see ever happening though. It could have been done when Approach Rate was separated from Overall Difficulty, but for some reason, it was decided to keep AR on the map side. It's really too bad, as this would make most every map playable, especially the crappy ones made before the AR/OD split.
And really, every single other rhythm game I've ever played, including osu!'s other modes have had a way to adjust approach rate on a user basis.
Sounds like a crappy map to me. Hide and seek maps are terrible.Bikko wrote:
FOR ITS DIFFICULTY.
I support this if it's only for increasing AR
I read all posts in the discussion (except the japanese ones) but I'm still not getting the point of the request.
Are you guys asking to make AR a value chosen by the player?
In that case: hell no, are you all nuts?
If you can't read a map learn to sightread, that's a skill you have to master as well to be able to play a fair range of maps. Maps are not only jumps and streams, they require the ability to sightread stuff.
If you can't do that, improve at it.
I'm not asking people to limit streams only because I don't like/can't play them: either i get better at them or i don't play, easy as that.
Unless you're requesting this for training purposes and as an unranked mod or something: in that case I agree because it could be really useful.
If i misunderstood something, feel free to explain better what you mean.
"AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH OH REALLY?"
Then rage.
Try playing AR/OD 9/10 and size 5 circles in hard/insane maps, then we'll talk.
Are you guys asking to make AR a value chosen by the player?
In that case: hell no, are you all nuts?
If you can't read a map learn to sightread, that's a skill you have to master as well to be able to play a fair range of maps. Maps are not only jumps and streams, they require the ability to sightread stuff.
If you can't do that, improve at it.
I'm not asking people to limit streams only because I don't like/can't play them: either i get better at them or i don't play, easy as that.
Unless you're requesting this for training purposes and as an unranked mod or something: in that case I agree because it could be really useful.
If i misunderstood something, feel free to explain better what you mean.
Everytime i read this i want to say this:ziin wrote:
Hard makes maps easier, you get a score bonus for it.
"AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH OH REALLY?"
Then rage.
Try playing AR/OD 9/10 and size 5 circles in hard/insane maps, then we'll talk.
Yes, the request is to make AR editable without having to go into the osu file.
Okay, I played those maps after I changed the circle size to 3, and AR/OD to 6. It was much easier using hard rock rather than without. Hard should make all maps harder, regardless of how well they were made.Card N'FoRcE wrote:
Everytime i read this i want to say this:ziin wrote:
Hard makes maps easier, you get a score bonus for it.
"AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH OH REALLY?"
Then rage.
Try playing AR/OD 9/10 and size 5 circles in hard/insane maps, then we'll talk.
Mods work differently depending on the type of map you're going to play.ziin wrote:
Okay, I played those maps after I changed the circle size to 3, and AR/OD to 6. It was much easier using hard rock rather than without. Hard should make all maps harder, regardless of how well they were made.
Some maps are easier with specific mods while other may be more tedious with the same mod.
HardRock has a great difficulty gap when applied to a map with AR7 when compared to a map with AR6.
I know about the general issue that the Easy mod actually makes about 98% of the maps more tedious, but at this point isn't it better to fix that issue instead?
Easy could be:
- Circle Size -1 (one tick bigger feels like the perfect value to make things easier and not messy)
- HP Drain -3/-4 (makes it harder to fail, thus easier to pass)
- OD -2/-3 (lot more leniency for 300s and spinners, thus easier to play)
If AR is user selectable, then Easy/Hard rock will be fixed. But honestly, at this point in the game, it's too late to fix them. Osu!'s doing fine, and this is only a wish. Even if we get something that turns it into "unranked" play, people will still play for the points. After all, if you don't get credit, why do it at all? And that mode already exists in osu, thought it's probably even more tedious than easy mode.Card N'FoRcE wrote:
I know about the general issue that the Easy mod actually makes about 98% of the maps more tedious, but at this point isn't it better to fix that issue instead?
I do find it funny how I am much better than some of the sub-1000 rankers on easy insanes, simply because they play better/are more used to higher approach rates. Of course, if you stick hard rock on there, there's a strong likelihood that they will not only do better, but I will do much worse.
I dunno, for fun? I play on relaxing sometimes =3ziin wrote:
After all, if you don't get credit, why do it at all?
Not going to question the rest of the message since this is the only thing that caught my attention, please carry on with yo lives.
I'm with Card N'FoRcE on this one (except for the suggested changes on easy mode, I love it the way it is). I think sightreading is part of a player's skill and should stay as it is.
HardRock mod harkens to our Ouendan heritage, and the most recognizable changes of Hard ROCK! / Karei were the smaller circles, fast AR, and 180° flip. (osu! gets the flip wrong by only flipping vertically, not 180, but that's beside the point and can't be changed now.) Removing the AR change on HardRock subverts this. Providing separate mods to control AR adds too much complication. (This request is effectively for a "custom AR" mod.)
流れを無視して、日本語で書きこむ。
個人的にはARは調整できたほうが、これまで門前払いだった譜面もできるようになるので嬉しい。
……が、HardRockでARが高くなるように、ARは公式的に難易度の一部として組み込まれているように、私は感じる。
ランキングというのは同じ条件で競うものだからこそ意味があるのであり、
ここでARを調整できてしまうと、その前提条件が崩れてしまうようにも思える。（modは難しくして点数を上げるのでOK）
だからといってARを調整したらmodのようにスコアが変わるのも何かがおかしいと思うので（何が言いたいか分からなくなったので略
客観的に見ると自分の感情で嫌だと言ってる感じなので理論的ではないかな？
ARを変えたときのスコアの扱いに悩む感じ。いろいろ考えたけど納得する答えが浮かばない。
つまりは何が言いたいのかというと、ARを変える機能は賛成なのだが、
ランキングには反映できないようにした方がいいかな？と言うのが私の意見です。
マルチに関しては、試合の時は変えないようにすればいいし遊びの時は変えればいい。
変えているのが分かるようにして、自分たちでその都度決めていけばいいと思います。
私見なので反論は認める
個人的にはARは調整できたほうが、これまで門前払いだった譜面もできるようになるので嬉しい。
……が、HardRockでARが高くなるように、ARは公式的に難易度の一部として組み込まれているように、私は感じる。
ランキングというのは同じ条件で競うものだからこそ意味があるのであり、
ここでARを調整できてしまうと、その前提条件が崩れてしまうようにも思える。（modは難しくして点数を上げるのでOK）
客観的に見ると自分の感情で嫌だと言ってる感じなので理論的ではないかな？
ARを変えたときのスコアの扱いに悩む感じ。いろいろ考えたけど納得する答えが浮かばない。
つまりは何が言いたいのかというと、ARを変える機能は賛成なのだが、
ランキングには反映できないようにした方がいいかな？と言うのが私の意見です。
マルチに関しては、試合の時は変えないようにすればいいし遊びの時は変えればいい。
変えているのが分かるようにして、自分たちでその都度決めていけばいいと思います。
私見なので反論は認める
As much as this would benefit me, I don't want this. This is basically allowing an option to make maps easier. Everyone should have to deal with how hard it is. Bad bad idea.
Topic Starter
personally, I can play AR5-9 and don't want/need this option.
But how many people are enjoying this game for difficulty, or how much % of players can see AR9+ or AR5-.
This will reduce difficulty, and could work as negative motivation for player who trained to be able to see high AR map or low AR map（include myself)
But Approach Rate isn't the option to make map more difficult as far as I understand.
In other hand, this option will expand playability for low AR / high AR attack like no-speed / high-speed play in other game.
Also all player can enjoy easy / normal with higher AR, hard insane with lower AR.
We (means who can enjoy AR9 or 10, or AR5 or lower) need to remind that we are standing on minority side :P
Also remind how many normal map are ignored due to low AR / or played with DTHR
for PSPDS Eddie
どちらかといえばHighARを下げるというよりは、Low ARを上げてNormal/Easyが誰でも楽しめるようにする方が大きい。
うちら（AR9とか10が見える人間）は少数派であるってことを理解して、残り95%も考えたほうがいいのも事実。
ノーマルとかイージーなんてDT HRなしじゃプレイできないし、middle Player（Hard辺りをメインにやる人たち）ですら
すでにノーマル以下にHR付けるのが基本になってるという現状があるよね。
後ARを上げて難易度上げるという手法ってのはARの本来の使い方じゃないわけで
その使い方をしている人に対して警鐘を鳴らす意味での提案でもある。
ついでに言えば、私は9見えるまで練習したし正直このオプションは邪魔、でも一方で自分が恐らくプレイヤープールで言う
10%以下のサイドに入っている自覚はあるので、冷徹にosu自体をを考慮するのであればこのオプションは有益。
スコアやランキング云々が大事な人達にとってはとても困る提案であることは分かってる。
But how many people are enjoying this game for difficulty, or how much % of players can see AR9+ or AR5-.
This will reduce difficulty, and could work as negative motivation for player who trained to be able to see high AR map or low AR map（include myself)
But Approach Rate isn't the option to make map more difficult as far as I understand.
In other hand, this option will expand playability for low AR / high AR attack like no-speed / high-speed play in other game.
Also all player can enjoy easy / normal with higher AR, hard insane with lower AR.
We (means who can enjoy AR9 or 10, or AR5 or lower) need to remind that we are standing on minority side :P
Also remind how many normal map are ignored due to low AR / or played with DTHR
for PSPDS Eddie
どちらかといえばHighARを下げるというよりは、Low ARを上げてNormal/Easyが誰でも楽しめるようにする方が大きい。
うちら（AR9とか10が見える人間）は少数派であるってことを理解して、残り95%も考えたほうがいいのも事実。
ノーマルとかイージーなんてDT HRなしじゃプレイできないし、middle Player（Hard辺りをメインにやる人たち）ですら
すでにノーマル以下にHR付けるのが基本になってるという現状があるよね。
後ARを上げて難易度上げるという手法ってのはARの本来の使い方じゃないわけで
その使い方をしている人に対して警鐘を鳴らす意味での提案でもある。
ついでに言えば、私は9見えるまで練習したし正直このオプションは邪魔、でも一方で自分が恐らくプレイヤープールで言う
10%以下のサイドに入っている自覚はあるので、冷徹にosu自体をを考慮するのであればこのオプションは有益。
スコアやランキング云々が大事な人達にとってはとても困る提案であることは分かってる。
This all is very true and I'm all for this option.dvorak wrote:
stuff
But the main problem is not in how people will accept this, problem is that the scoring balance will be changed completely, hardrock modificator will have to get changed and lots of older records will simply look weird or even silly compared to new.
And there are no obvious solutions for this except the radical ones, such as only making this possible for maps ranked after the feature gets into osu! or just implement it for all maps without penalty and put a trollface on while not giving a damn about how people react.
I'd like to make more input into this, but I have to go soon, so I'll keep it for later.
Tbh, since I played almost all difficulties in mapset (which why my plays incredibly high I manage to adapt from AR2 to AR 8 accordance to the speed of map. I see this is a good idea, but as MM said some mods must be considered before implement this.
I quite strongly disagree with this, a set AR rate keeps the map at a consistent difficulty for all players (not counting mods, but afaik HR and Easy are affected by the map's default settings.). Also, the mapper makes their map with an AR that fits the song and the map is made to be played with this AR. If there was a problem with it it should have been brought up during modding.
The multi speaks!AdaunanJP wrote:
NO!!
However I agree with him.
No. This is quite a silly idea. Don't even know how it got this many stars to be honest. If peppy adds this option it'll only be a matter of time before someone says "Oh the maps BPM is too fast for me, add option to slow it down lulz?" and then it'll just snowball from there.
A) Your argument is silly, and someone has already said that.Zetta wrote:
No. This is quite a silly idea. Don't even know how it got this many stars to be honest. If peppy adds this option it'll only be a matter of time before someone says "Oh the maps BPM is too fast for me, add option to slow it down lulz?" and then it'll just snowball from there.
B) It already exists in Double and Half Time
C) it would not be a bad thing to slow the song down in 25%, 50%, 75% or speed it up 133%, 166%, 200% so long as the modes are unranked. These modes already exist in other games (usually called practice mode or something).
A set AR rate does not keep the map at a consistent difficulty for all players because AR is not linear in difficulty and varies from person to person.Mashley wrote:
I quite strongly disagree with this, a set AR rate keeps the map at a consistent difficulty for all players
AR does not affect score at all. An AR which is set to a non-optimized rate is added difficulty for the player with no reward.
That's like saying that beatmaps aren't consistent in difficulty because players have different skill levels in different areas. Of course AR difficulty varies from person to person, you clod.ziin wrote:
A set AR rate does not keep the map at a consistent difficulty for all players because AR is not linear in difficulty and varies from person to person.
If this was an unranked mod, I would be okay
With it. If this was a ranked mod, I would say no. I say no because this what practice is for. This would defeat the purpose of hardrock. Also, along with what jar said, different players have different strengths and weaknesses. Like some players are good at large spacing and jumps while others are good at streams etc
With it. If this was a ranked mod, I would say no. I say no because this what practice is for. This would defeat the purpose of hardrock. Also, along with what jar said, different players have different strengths and weaknesses. Like some players are good at large spacing and jumps while others are good at streams etc
This already exists and is called the editor.ouranhshc wrote:
If this was an unranked mod, I would be okay
True. I'm going to go with a big no then. (nice name change)mm201 wrote:
This already exists and is called the editor.ouranhshc wrote:
If this was an unranked mod, I would be okay
IMO you should only be able to raise the AR. guitar hero has it's hyper speed cheat or whatever and stuff like that. While it may be "easier" to some players it still technically takes more skill and shouldn't have any real effect on the scoreboards.
Beatmap difficulty is abstract and not easily definable (see star rating). It depends a lot on the song and the skill of the beatmap creator. AR is completely separate and is represented in a linear fashion when in reality its impact on difficulty is not linear.Jarby wrote:
That's like saying that beatmaps aren't consistent in difficulty because players have different skill levels in different areas.
This is more of an issue of "I want to be considered better than you because I have visual acuity" vs "I want to be able to have fun while playing more beatmaps." Anyone in opposition to such a feature is not required to use it. It is also not the same as beatmap difficulty because streams and jumps are not in every single map to the same degree. Approach rate is.
Of course the flipside of all this is that as mm said, this already exists, and the people whining about it want a less tedious option, and would obviously prefer it to be still rankable.
None of the difficulty settings are in fact linear in difficulty at all. ar rates should be chosen according to the density of incoming notes at an average over the entire map, specifically at a rate where the player can see far enough ahead to react, but not so far ahead that note confusion becomes an issue. This is very hard to pin down, especially with the fact that people get used to certain ars over others (ar8 and 9 especially)ziin wrote:
Beatmap difficulty is abstract and not easily definable (see star rating). It depends a lot on the song and the skill of the beatmap creator. AR is completely separate and is represented in a linear fashion when in reality its impact on difficulty is not linear.Jarby wrote:
That's like saying that beatmaps aren't consistent in difficulty because players have different skill levels in different areas.
This is more of an issue of "I want to be considered better than you because I have visual acuity" vs "I want to be able to have fun while playing more beatmaps." Anyone in opposition to such a feature is not required to use it. It is also not the same as beatmap difficulty because streams and jumps are not in every single map to the same degree. Approach rate is.
Of course the flipside of all this is that as mm said, this already exists, and the people whining about it want a less tedious option, and would obviously prefer it to be still rankable.
OD and HP are just as important to choose as ar, yet people don't mind as much since having an off-kilter setting on those two won't drastically impact a player's ability to play a map.
I don't see why we have an AR setting if we could just choose our own AR? Also isn't approach rate indirectly related to how we perceive a beat or portion of a rhythm. So could we be sure that in all cases this option would benefit the flow of the song? Because I just picture people setting their OMG crazy map at a low AR that the spacing doesn't support just to take advantage of this feature. Furthermore I don't see how you could balance out a lower than OD AR setting as approach rate does relate to how easy a beat is to hit.
Example
Take any Easy mode and put AR 10. Tell me if its harder or the same challenge to play it. Do the same for an insane. Put AR 1 and tell me if it's any easier. Base the challenge off of ability to read the beat and not how much clutter it causes.
We must have a clear understanding of what effects this would have before we could even think of implementing it.
Example
Take any Easy mode and put AR 10. Tell me if its harder or the same challenge to play it. Do the same for an insane. Put AR 1 and tell me if it's any easier. Base the challenge off of ability to read the beat and not how much clutter it causes.
We must have a clear understanding of what effects this would have before we could even think of implementing it.
Yeah, should I have the option to choose my own circle size too? Small circles are much too hard for some players!
you guys are really not getting it
Waryas
But again this will allow people to rank some kind of maps more easily.
Take these maps for instance :
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/65756&m=0
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/24023&m=0
Play it normallly, post your score.
Change it to AR9/AR10 (whateveryou're most comfortable with) and post your score.
For some people, higher AR means easier to do jumps/patterns (I am unable to snap to notes on jumps on any AR lower than 9) and that's why it'll create unbalance on some maps.
Many factors have to be considered before making this possible.
Take these maps for instance :
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/65756&m=0
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/24023&m=0
Play it normallly, post your score.
Change it to AR9/AR10 (whateveryou're most comfortable with) and post your score.
For some people, higher AR means easier to do jumps/patterns (I am unable to snap to notes on jumps on any AR lower than 9) and that's why it'll create unbalance on some maps.
Many factors have to be considered before making this possible.
>BikkoJesusYamato wrote:
But again this will allow people to rank some kind of maps more easily.
Take these maps for instance :
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/65756&m=0
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/24023&m=0
Play it normallly, post your score.
Change it to AR9/AR10 (whateveryou're most comfortable with) and post your score.
For some people, higher AR means easier to do jumps/patterns (I am unable to snap to notes on jumps on any AR lower than 9) and that's why it'll create unbalance on some maps.
Many factors have to be considered before making this possible.
no
>chocobo
fffffuuuuuuu rage
Waryas
1) Madness is meant for touchscreen >_>JesusYamato wrote:
Those maps are not full FC in their top40 mainly because the low AR makes it confusing ON PURPOSE.
2) you choose an mtmcl map from 2008
Waryas
and how many maps are like this?JesusYamato wrote:
2) you choose an mtmcl map from 2008This is my point, exactly.
Allowing us to choose our own AR will make ranking on some maps especially easier and that might be unfair to those who ranked on them when AR was still fixed.
Waryas
I dont' think changing the AR is going to make a jump any easier, the jump is still a jump. a 1.5x jump will still be a 1.5x jump no matter what the AR is.JesusYamato wrote:
I can post a list of maps that are in fact easier (again this is in my opinion/for me) if you increase the AR :
Every 2008/2009 maps.
Every Easy/normal/Hard
Any Jumpy/Pattern on AR8-.
Judging by the people who are supporting this thread, it is a tiny group of people compared to the number of players on osu!
How many people actually play maps from 2008
a lot and you're completely missing the pointouranhshc wrote:
I dont' think changing the AR is going to make a jump any easier, the jump is still a jump. a 1.5x jump will still be a 1.5x jump no matter what the AR is.JesusYamato wrote:
I can post a list of maps that are in fact easier (again this is in my opinion/for me) if you increase the AR :
Every 2008/2009 maps.
Every Easy/normal/Hard
Any Jumpy/Pattern on AR8-.
Judging by the people who are supporting this thread, it is a tiny group of people compared to the number of players on osu!
How many people actually play maps from 2008
Also interesting that only raising the AR is being discussed, since lowering it breaks the set balance just as much as increasing
I don't agree with this request, but this was so retarded that it made me cry.ouranhshc wrote:
How many people actually play maps from 2008
Waryas
Shael_old
yes, but using your reflexes to hit the jumps are actually easier for me than playing it with low ARouranhshc wrote:
I dont' think changing the AR is going to make a jump any easier, the jump is still a jump. a 1.5x jump will still be a 1.5x jump no matter what the AR is.JesusYamato wrote:
I can post a list of maps that are in fact easier (again this is in my opinion/for me) if you increase the AR :
Every 2008/2009 maps.
Every Easy/normal/Hard
Any Jumpy/Pattern on AR8-.
Judging by the people who are supporting this thread, it is a tiny group of people compared to the number of players on osu!
How many people actually play maps from 2008
best example would be this, http://osu.ppy.sh/s/23667, i can't fc it without HR but with, i can
Approach rate is something that should have been user defined from the start. It's a bit late for that though because it would break existing maps and mods. There's a reason many other rhythm games let you choose your own scroll speed; it's something that ultimately comes down to personal preference, not play skill.
By having maps set the approach rate rather than the user, you run into a few weird circumstances. Take me for example. When I first started this game, I couldn't play it on any difficulty. Why? The approach rates on Easy/Normal maps were so damn low I couldn't figure anything out. The approach rates on Hard/Insane maps were perfect for me, but I couldn't play the maps because the patterns were too hard or fast. It seems kind of stupid that the "Easier" difficulties were so much more difficult for me that I preferred playing Insane right from the start. I suck ass at DDR and Rock Band, but the Easy/Medium charts feel much more balanced than this game, simply because I can choose the speed I want, rather than being forced to "superslowunreadable" speed.
It's only after playing for a while that I could finally read the slower speeds, and yet those speeds are commonplace amongst what are supposed to be "Easy" maps.
By having maps set the approach rate rather than the user, you run into a few weird circumstances. Take me for example. When I first started this game, I couldn't play it on any difficulty. Why? The approach rates on Easy/Normal maps were so damn low I couldn't figure anything out. The approach rates on Hard/Insane maps were perfect for me, but I couldn't play the maps because the patterns were too hard or fast. It seems kind of stupid that the "Easier" difficulties were so much more difficult for me that I preferred playing Insane right from the start. I suck ass at DDR and Rock Band, but the Easy/Medium charts feel much more balanced than this game, simply because I can choose the speed I want, rather than being forced to "superslowunreadable" speed.
It's only after playing for a while that I could finally read the slower speeds, and yet those speeds are commonplace amongst what are supposed to be "Easy" maps.
Precisely the opposite for me, things worked out perfectly on my end.Lybydose wrote:
It's only after playing for a while that I could finally read the slower speeds, and yet those speeds are commonplace amongst what are supposed to be "Easy" maps.
That's basically what I said a few days ago in this thread.Lybydose wrote:
Approach rate is something that should have been user defined from the start. It's a bit late for that though because it would break existing maps and mods. There's a reason many other rhythm games let you choose your own scroll speed; it's something that ultimately comes down to personal preference, not play skill.
And everyone else is saying that "personal preference" IS play skill. I agree with them, but I don't think it's a skill we need to foster, and 90% of rhythm games agree with me, including taiko and CTB (making it faster only).
I like JesusYamato's suggestion with a user defined in the map, but that is still left to the beatmap creator. Likewise it does not solve the problem in currently ranked maps (where we really need it, newer maps are of much higher quality). Should this be added (including any sort of storyboard toggle or skin toggle in similar fasion) people will be considered "assholes" if they do not check that box. Eventually it would become as standard as circle size 4 is to check that box.
I agree with lybydose however. It's a bit late for this. Osu! is thriving. Should this pass, it would anger a lot of people. If it doesn't pass, no change occurs, nobody gets pissed off.
I like JesusYamato's suggestion with a user defined in the map, but that is still left to the beatmap creator. Likewise it does not solve the problem in currently ranked maps (where we really need it, newer maps are of much higher quality). Should this be added (including any sort of storyboard toggle or skin toggle in similar fasion) people will be considered "assholes" if they do not check that box. Eventually it would become as standard as circle size 4 is to check that box.
I agree with lybydose however. It's a bit late for this. Osu! is thriving. Should this pass, it would anger a lot of people. If it doesn't pass, no change occurs, nobody gets pissed off.
Taiko can be ignored in this discussion as their approach rate is determined by slider velocity; not in the difficulty settings, and the standard et for taiko is through-and-by 1.4 / 1.6 with varying amounts on high bpms / very low bpms.
ar is extremely important to ctb (just as, if not more so, than standard), however because the ability to react to fruits changes entirely - I know Mei, Poker Face, Go Beyond, etcetcetc would not be anywhere near as challenging (note: NOT "hard") if we could just throw it from ar9 to ar 7 or 8. It'd also screw with how dt works, where people can just use very low ars combined with dt to make reacting much easier than it should be.
ar is extremely important to ctb (just as, if not more so, than standard), however because the ability to react to fruits changes entirely - I know Mei, Poker Face, Go Beyond, etcetcetc would not be anywhere near as challenging (note: NOT "hard") if we could just throw it from ar9 to ar 7 or 8. It'd also screw with how dt works, where people can just use very low ars combined with dt to make reacting much easier than it should be.
Topic Starter
As I wrote before, AR change option should stick with None mod.
any mod which give player plus multiplier should follow mapper's default AR setting.
or remove all score + multiplier from mod, well this should be talked in another thread.
any mod which give player plus multiplier should follow mapper's default AR setting.
or remove all score + multiplier from mod, well this should be talked in another thread.
Cover up the top half/ right side of the screen with another window/piece of paper. Instant AR 9.Shiirn wrote:
Taiko can be ignored in this discussion as their approach rate is determined by slider velocity; not in the difficulty settings, and the standard et for taiko is through-and-by 1.4 / 1.6 with varying amounts on high bpms / very low bpms.
ar is extremely important to ctb (just as, if not more so, than standard), however because the ability to react to fruits changes entirely - I know Mei, Poker Face, Go Beyond, etcetcetc would not be anywhere near as challenging (note: NOT "hard") if we could just throw it from ar9 to ar 7 or 8. It'd also screw with how dt works, where people can just use very low ars combined with dt to make reacting much easier than it should be.
lolno, you're describing flashlight.ziin wrote:
Cover up the top half/ right side of the screen with another window/piece of paper. Instant AR 9.
flashlight maxes out at 200 combo, which is often much too small, and it's a constant reduction irrelevant to BPM, not like screen shrinking, which is customizable down to the pixel.Shiirn wrote:
lolno, you're describing flashlight.ziin wrote:
Cover up the top half/ right side of the screen with another window/piece of paper. Instant AR 9.
you weren't really cleardvorak wrote:
As I wrote before, AR change option should stick with None mod.
any mod which give player plus multiplier should follow mapper's default AR setting.
or remove all score + multiplier from mod, well this should be talked in another thread.
lol beatmaniaziin wrote:
Cover up the top half/ right side of the screen with another window/piece of paper. Instant AR 9.
Anyway.
Making AR user-definable is a completely proved logical idea already. Seriously.
What we guys need to discuss is the way of keeping the balance and how to trick peppy into coding this. If there is one.
lol.TKiller wrote:
Making AR user-definable is a completely proved logical idea already. Seriously.
What we guys need to discuss is the way of keeping the balance and how to trick peppy into coding this. If there is one.
Yeah, I agree with this.
Might as well throw in a support post for this myself. Played a map today where it seemed like the AR in one difficulty was artifically lowered a couple notches to "fix" the difficulty curve (or just plain chosen poorly) and it was pretty bad...
I just played this one map. It had this jump at the most awful place, seemingly just to artificially inflate the difficulty. We should make an automatic jump remover and let players chose their own spacing.Soaprman wrote:
Might as well throw in a support post for this myself. Played a map today where it seemed like the AR in one difficulty was artifically lowered a couple notches to "fix" the difficulty curve (or just plain chosen poorly) and it was pretty bad...
Yeah, you're right, that post of mine was kind of bad. I still agree with this feature request though.
I don't like this idea at all but answering TKiller:
Players should only be able to lower AR and if they do there should be a negative score multiplier. This is the only way not to kill game balance.
But there's another thing that should be taken into consideration:
If players start lowering song's AR then they won't get better. Playing high bpm / high AR maps is part of what makes you improve in this game.
That said, I completely disagree with this idea.
Players should only be able to lower AR and if they do there should be a negative score multiplier. This is the only way not to kill game balance.
But there's another thing that should be taken into consideration:
If players start lowering song's AR then they won't get better. Playing high bpm / high AR maps is part of what makes you improve in this game.
That said, I completely disagree with this idea.
Man like 2 people have realized the obvious. If it makes it easier for you, than it is giving you an unfair advantage over other players... This idea should be voided just for that purpose.
Just because you can play AR 10 doesn't mean most of Osu can/should. And if playing a map with AR 10 gives you an advantage than that's unfair since you can't expect everyone to play a map in AR 10.
Just because you can play AR 10 doesn't mean most of Osu can/should. And if playing a map with AR 10 gives you an advantage than that's unfair since you can't expect everyone to play a map in AR 10.
Yeah but Easy, Half Time and No Fail are ranked mods and they are the same as what is being suggested. I don't like that they are ranked mods. Maps should be played in their original form or harder, not easier. But that's how the game is and I doubt it'll change.
Even while I agree with the suggestion, it'll completly break the game balance, some players are pro at reading retarded AR (aka AR lower than 7) and that gives you an advantage. I personally have a hard time doing jumps on AR 8 (find it easier with 9 or 10) and being able to increase it without getting OD 99999 and Circle Size >9000 would be an huge help. Even when I know the AR should be defined by the user instead of the mapper (except with mods), the game is currently just like this and changing it wouldn't do any good tbh.
However I agree with Metro, players should be able to lower AR by getting a negative bonus (10% per point?). Doubt anyone's gonna use it since AR 9 is pretty much easy to read for most people I know, and AR 8 is like standar nowadays so whatever.
However I agree with Metro, players should be able to lower AR by getting a negative bonus (10% per point?). Doubt anyone's gonna use it since AR 9 is pretty much easy to read for most people I know, and AR 8 is like standar nowadays so whatever.
I honestly don't see a point to this. If a map is too hard, then the player simply isn't good enough for it. If a map is approved and played for being good enough on its own merits, then why would the player need to alter it? Doing so would disrupt the flow of a map. For one, slow approach rates in high difficulties would make the whole experience feel disjointed.
Imo if this was implemented, it would break the flow of maps.
Don't know how to explain. It just would.
Don't know how to explain. It just would.
Having read through most of the thread . . . nah. I mean, an uncomfortable approach rate can be annoying, but it can be easily countered. If it's too slow you just have to keep playing the map until you memorise the timing. If it's too fast, as you keep playing you'll adjust to the high rate anyway, and get a vague idea of where the notes are, so you can prepare yourself better. In addition, the feature would greatly decrease the difficulty of hard time, and probably skew the rankings quite horribly as a result.
Ussuru
Ughh, just no. Think about it, all games have a certain skill level. I can't pass AR 11, but I can play AR 10. Two months ago I couldn't even touch AR 9, same goes for other things like streams, jumps, stamina, nervousness and my cat which jumps on me when I am playing. Just get better that's all.
Perfect spacing is a must with slow AR. If the map is confusing, the BAT should tell the mapper to raise the AR.Matty wrote:
If it's too slow you just have to keep playing the map until you memorise the timing.
Such a nonsense.
It alone defines a part of difficulty of song, not to even mention, that it makes a song visual appearence too.
w
t
f
Do you seriously want this to be user-defined?
NO!
It alone defines a part of difficulty of song, not to even mention, that it makes a song visual appearence too.
w
t
f
Do you seriously want this to be user-defined?
NO!
Shael_old
Why are we still dawdling around in the past/present when we can escalate this to the future. No more features asking to enable/disable kiai time, adjust background darkness, define your own circle size/approach rate
Let's just let players make/customize their own maps. That way EVERYBODY is happy. Because that's the direction we're going, here.
Let's just let players make/customize their own maps. That way EVERYBODY is happy. Because that's the direction we're going, here.
make easy mod customize map settings.
uhhh isn't reading different AR's just as much a skill as hitting jumps, small circles or streaming? I'd like this for an unranked mod, sure, but not as a ranked one. If the reason is to enjoy more maps and having fun, then you probably won't mind it being unranked anyway.
If it were a skill like you say we would have more ar 4- insanes, because it's clearly harder.
Actually, I find AR 4 easier than AR 9 simply because I am able to read it easily, and don't have to react like I have to with AR 9. In fact, I hate it when AR 9 is used on songs that aren't really really fast, because then it's just a pain.ziin wrote:
If it were a skill like you say we would have more ar 4- insanes, because it's clearly harder.
Therefore, because it's easier, it shouldn't be used on Insanes. You're so silly. \o/
which is easier: AR 4 or AR 7? We have circle size 6 insanes. We don't have any approach rate 4 insanes, or at least none that I've seen.Ekaru wrote:
Actually, I find AR 4 easier than AR 9 simply because I am able to read it easily, and don't have to react like I have to with AR 9. In fact, I hate it when AR 9 is used on songs that aren't really really fast, because then it's just a pain.ziin wrote:
If it were a skill like you say we would have more ar 4- insanes, because it's clearly harder.
Therefore, because it's easier, it shouldn't be used on Insanes. You're so silly. \o/
The game isn't fun if you don't know where the next note is. If a bunch of notes are stacked/clustered in one area, you need a higher AR to be able to separate the notes. Otherwise everything becomes a CF and you end up getting lost. It's the same as having an approach rate which is too high.
> cs 7 is clearly harder than cs 5ziin wrote:
If it were a skill like you say we would have more ar 4- insanes, because it's clearly harder.
> we don't have many maps with cs 7
> we don't need skill to play cs 7
some is different than none.
alright, i blame shotgun symphony
anyway, afaik we don't have ranked maps with ar 10, od 10 or drain 10. no skill needed to play any of these settings, then? yay
@Ekaru try playing some high bpm insane with ar 9 and then with ar 4 or lower
anyway, afaik we don't have ranked maps with ar 10, od 10 or drain 10. no skill needed to play any of these settings, then? yay
@Ekaru try playing some high bpm insane with ar 9 and then with ar 4 or lower
JesusYamato wrote:
pfff ar9 is too slow
Tested that out right now on a couple of fast maps.maay wrote:
@Ekaru try playing some high bpm insane with ar 9 and then with ar 4 or lower
It depends on the Insane, really. Straightforward ones are easy on AR 4. More confusing ones? I could do it, but I'd have to go through the map a few times first to get the hang of it. So, let's talk about AR 6, which is actually realistic. I can read this just fine on AR 6:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/17338
And this:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/29044
I do think there should be a minimum AR rule or guideline for Insanes, though; 7+ AR is recommended, though 6 AR is OK if it's like 110 BPM or something. But like AR 6- on a fast Insane is stupid. Sure, I can do it, but AR 7+ is funner most of the time.
Agreed. ^_^JesusYamato wrote:
140- bpm: ar8
140-210: ar9
210+: ar10
And osu would be a better place.
AR depends on the mapping. Taking a high AR map and lowering it will turn it into a confusing clusterfuck. Another map could be designed for the low AR, have no overlaps, have readable spacing, and work just fine.
A 210bpm Easy with AR10 is just stupid.
Here's a better guide: Pick an AR so that there aren't more than 4 objects onscreen at once. More if you (the mapper) are really good at dealing with overlaps.
A 210bpm Easy with AR10 is just stupid.
Here's a better guide: Pick an AR so that there aren't more than 4 objects onscreen at once. More if you (the mapper) are really good at dealing with overlaps.
This is a skill they should develop. inb4 extreme case shit where maps not designed for low AR get their AR changed.Shael wrote:
it would be nice, because some people are not used to lower ar than 9
ランキングの判定時にARの違う人どうしが一括りにされるというのは公平性に欠けると思うので反対です。
ARを全体で統一してこそ公平が保たれるのだと私は思います。
AR変更をModで行うのならば話は別ですが、Noneでやる以上はこの問題は避けられません。
またMapperの立場から見て言えば、ARという難易度基準をPlayerサイドで変更できてしまうという事は
譜面を作る人の個性を出せる幅が狭まるという事に繋がると思います。
面白いアイデアなのですが、実現は困難と感じます。
ARを全体で統一してこそ公平が保たれるのだと私は思います。
AR変更をModで行うのならば話は別ですが、Noneでやる以上はこの問題は避けられません。
またMapperの立場から見て言えば、ARという難易度基準をPlayerサイドで変更できてしまうという事は
譜面を作る人の個性を出せる幅が狭まるという事に繋がると思います。
面白いアイデアなのですが、実現は困難と感じます。
CXu wrote:
uhhh isn't reading different AR's just as much a skill as hitting jumps, small circles or streaming? I'd like this for an unranked mod, sure, but not as a ranked one. If the reason is to enjoy more maps and having fun, then you probably won't mind it being unranked anyway.
Shael_old
This.CXu wrote:
uhhh isn't reading different AR's just as much a skill as hitting jumps, small circles or streaming? I'd like this for an unranked mod, sure, but not as a ranked one. If the reason is to enjoy more maps and having fun, then you probably won't mind it being unranked anyway.
Not to mention that it would completely ruin the spirit of some maps like http://osu.ppy.sh/b/24428. Speaking of fun, successfully reading slow AR (especially with weird patterns) may be equally thrilling as reading high AR.
Now you understand why honeycombs are <3~
I agree with this idea and the mods easy and hardrock should only change the timing window and circle size. So maybe easy mod will be a bit more helpfull on insane difficulty maps. DT should keep the AR too then. And AR should be set at mod selection before song, so you could set it for every song for your preference.
I hope it is not too late for this feature and i hope it will be considered
I hope it is not too late for this feature and i hope it will be considered
ar is a crucial part of the game... it'd kinda ruin it if you could pick it
ar is a crucial part of the game... so crucial that the player should be able to pick the perfect setting.shaNk wrote:
ar is a crucial part of the game... it'd kinda ruin it if you could pick it
noziin wrote:
ar is a crucial part of the game... so crucial that the player should be able to pick the perfect setting.shaNk wrote:
ar is a crucial part of the game... it'd kinda ruin it if you could pick it
Or yes, but then no ranking. It would be really lame if you could still rank.
Shael_old
you can already increase AR on ctb and taiko, or rather decrease the number of notes on the screen at one time.knjiga wrote:
It would be really lame if you could still rank.
Just because x-person can stream 240 bpm, doesn't have to mean y-preson needs be able to stream 240 bpm also.Shael wrote:
Why?
I don't see how this would destroy rankings
Just because x-person is good with ar8, doesn't have to mean y-preson needs to be good with ar8 also
Just because x-person is good with rhythm, doesn't have to mean y-preson needs to be good with rhythm also.
Just because x-person has good reflexes, doesn't have to mean y-preson needs to have good reflexes also.
Unless they want to be good at the game that is.
Playing high AR (or low in some cases) requires skill, skill then shouldn't be removed from the game for basically no reason.
CTB, Taiko - How do you increase the AR there?
With a piece of paper or a window blocking the top/side of the screen.knjiga wrote:
CTB, Taiko - How do you increase the AR there?
There is such a thing as eggpain difficulty:
Circle size too small - This makes it a whole lot harder to hit the note correctly, but usually you can still read it.
AR too high or too low - This makes it difficult to see where the next note will be, and that makes it not fun to play.
very fast BPM deathstream - usually a sign of a badly made map, but often time there is an inherent difficulty within the song. Very fast songs are almost always harder than slow songs.
Rhythms that don't make sense with the song - your style sucks, but this is all opinion based.
Most games I have played allow you to customize AR, which is really the reason for this request. When playing a map at the wrong AR, it's not fun. I don't really care about the whole "skill" thing. AR doesn't affect score, it just adds artificial difficulty. Very few people can read AR10. AR9 is more reasonable. AR8 is almost everyone who can pass insanes.
If I can pass a song on AR9 but not on AR10, why should it be AR10 then? It's a question of where the difficulty in a beatmap should lie, and it shouldn't be in your eyes. It should be based on the difficulty of the rhythms in the song.