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Make Approach Rate function for user definable option

posted
Total Posts
391

Do you support user-definable AR in ranked play?

Yes
96
50.79%
Yes, with a negative multiplier
40
21.16%
No
53
28.04%
Total votes: 189
Polling ended
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +2,763
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Cyril Scarlet
osu! Alumni
3,877 posts
Joined May 2009
Cyril Scarlet
私のマッパー側としての意見

自分の譜面でこの曲、この配置、このリズムだからこの AR がマッチングする。
だからこの ＡＲ で作成したいしプレイして頂きたい。

もちろん自分がこの曲、配置、リズムがこのＡＲとマッチングするから
他の方もそう思うと言うのは思っていません。

個人差あるので理解は出来ます。

**********************************************************************


私のプレイヤーとしての意見

譜面作成側の意見もわかるけど、確かに個人差あるので
このＡＲ９譜面は出来るけど、あのＡＲ９は出来ない。
などと言うパターンもそう少なくは無い。

と言う事でこのアイデアは良い案なのかもしれない。
Zekira
9,233 posts
Joined September 2008
Zekira
You also have to consider that faster circles means circles that start larger, which makes Flashlight easier.
This is my main concern regarding this...
dvorak_old
294 posts
Joined February 2010
Topic Starter
dvorak_old
It isn't hard to make AR change option for none//no-option only.
Mod play (+/- multiplayer) use AR which mapper set is solution for FL/HL become easier.

also about overlap/readability, everyone have unique brain/eye or not ?
Gomo Psivarh
584 posts
Joined December 2009
Gomo Psivarh
I ONLY support that you can customize AR and the custom AR will neutralize score bonus from mods.
Frostmourne
osu! Alumni
3,737 posts
Joined November 2009
Frostmourne
most of old beatmaps created with ar lower than 8

and i used to ar 8-9

if this idea be true, i think i can get more score from old beatmaps
TKiller
4,390 posts
Joined May 2009
TKiller
that's how it should've been from the start, but currently it will break the set game balance
Waryas
Waryas
Omg yes i'll play with AR10 all the time!
In most rhythm game you can set the speed without affecting the score I don't know why osu wasn't made this way..
But make this possible only for nomod otherwise people will set low AR and DT+HR everything.
Lybydose
osu! Alumni
2,024 posts
Joined January 2009
Lybydose

MetalMario201 wrote:

Approach circle speed is open to such a possibility, but the advanced time a circle spends on screen before you hit it needs to stay as it is, or unintended problems in maps such as overlaps may be introduced.
If the "fade-in" time of circles remains unchanged, it would be largely pointless to customize approach rate. Why? Most players read maps and determine "hit order" based on watching the circles themselves appear, not based upon approach circles. This is why low AR Hidden is incredibly difficult, why very few people can play Flashlight (while those that can are often found hitting notes in the wrong order or hitting notes early enough to result in a miss), why Hidden is so easy that it's almost "no mod" on AR 8 or so, why there are people who hate overlapping notes, despite the approach circles still being completely visible.

So, if the advanced time a circle spends on the screen must remain the same, what about Hard Rock and Easy mods then? These both alter when circles appear and can cause stack leniency and readability issues that weren't previously present in the map. It's especially noticeable with Easy mod because most maps that aren't already "Easy" become completely unreadable. Maybe I should post a feature request to remake the Easy mod, I've been meaning to do that for a while.

Also, I believe the doubletime mod should have been set to retain the approach rate setting of the map, rather than increasing it as it does now. As it stands now, DT is difficult because it increases approach rate to be incredibly high on many maps, not because it forces you to play faster.
Viola_old
40 posts
Joined October 2010
Viola_old
マッパーはランクさせるのに苦労しているわけですし、「これは絶対AR9でやってほしい！」
というのがあるかも知れません　(mappingはしないので分かりませんが)
なので、作ったマッパーがAR8でも9でも遊べるように設定できるならいいと思います
Mercurius
Former osu! Champion: 2014
501 posts
Joined November 2010
Mercurius
曲調にマッチさせる、速さを上げて難易度を調節する、などのmapperの意図を崩してしまうのでは？

これらを踏まえて、自分は反対です。
dvorak_old
294 posts
Joined February 2010
Topic Starter
dvorak_old

Viola wrote:

マッパーはランクさせるのに苦労しているわけですし、「これは絶対AR9でやってほしい！」
というのがあるかも知れません　(mappingはしないので分かりませんが)
なので、作ったマッパーがAR8でも9でも遊べるように設定できるならいいと思います
(trans by dvo) mapper spent much time to make own map as ranked, and there could be "play this map with AR9"
so if there is option that will allow mapper to choose changable or not ?


About this, it is impossible to ask whole mapper to activate this or not, so all or nothing is current solution.

これに関しては all or nothingで、mapperに選択可能にさせるという折衷案は現実的に不可能です。


Mercurius wrote:

曲調にマッチさせる、速さを上げて難易度を調節する、などのmapperの意図を崩してしまうのでは？

これらを踏まえて、自分は反対です。
To fit song. to adjust difficulty is mapper's though and this will break that ?
So I'm against this.


The first one is basically for mapper's thought, everyone have (like i said in first)
2nd, to use AR to adjust difficulty is intended usage of AR ?

一つ目については、曲調に合うARというものは個人の主観だよね？
2つ目についてはARを難易度調整に使うって正しい使い方なのかな？
Orgol
493 posts
Joined July 2010
Orgol
It's a good idea "Approach Rate function for user definable option".
Because it will be comfortable to play osu! than ever before (for all players).
But...what to do with up to the present online score ? :o
Last edited by Orgol , edited 1 time in total.
Rare
1,119 posts
Joined August 2010
Rare
いいアイデアだと思います。
自分は反対ですが、
mapperが決めた許容範囲でARが変更可能。
これなら自分はこの案には賛成に近づくかもしれません。
Muya
2,355 posts
Joined August 2009
Muya
star rateが変わってスコアが変わるRanked譜面もでると思うんですが、これはどう対処するのだろう・・・
tobaku2784
33 posts
Joined May 2009
tobaku2784
正直この意見には賛成か反対かと言われればどちらとも言えません。

正直ARを低くしたりすればやりやすいと言うと思いますが、スコアとかの換算をどうするんですか？という話ですね。

modとかでARを低くしたり高くしたりしてスコアを変えるのであれば話は別だと思いますが正直譜面によっては難易度が完全に変わりますしARをわざと下げてHRとかDTとかつけるのが出てきます。

もしもスコアに入れないと言うのであればspun autoみたいな扱いにすればいいと思います。しかしスコアに入れると言う話になると別ですね。輪が閉じるのが早いから難しいと言うものもあるのでそれをわざわざ簡単にしてしまうのはどうかと言う話です。難しくするのは別に僕としては反対じゃないです。

まぁ、ARを自分の設定で出来るようにする事には反対では無いです。しかしスコア等に反映させるのはどうかと思うって話ですね。練習にならいいと思います。もしスコア入れるならmodにするべきだと思います。

分かりにくい意見で申し訳ないです。
Sure
4,220 posts
Joined February 2009
Sure
Difficulty change of AR change isn't always regular.
If player can adjust AR, score should be ignored.
dvorak_old
294 posts
Joined February 2010
Topic Starter
dvorak_old

Lunet wrote:

It's a good idea "Approach Rate function for user definable option".
Because it will be comfortable to play osu! than ever before (for all players).
But...what to do with up to the present online score ? :o
nothing, ranking is so much important for everyone and that is main part of motivation to play osu! ?



Muya wrote:

star rateが変わってスコアが変わるRanked譜面もでると思うんですが、これはどう対処するのだろう・・・
t) star rate changed and score change on ranked map ? how to treat this.

Default AR set by mapper and that is used to culc score , so no change at all.

マッパーがデフォルトのARを決めてスコア計算もそれですべてやるので問題なくない？
過去の曲とかのデフォルトARは.osuに書かれてある奴を維持。



tobaku2784 wrote:

正直この意見には賛成か反対かと言われればどちらとも言えません。
ごめん省略
ARを変えられるのはnone（ノーオプションプレイオンリー）、scoreについてはまあひとまず置いといてmodプレイについてはこれまでと一緒。
ARは本当に難易度が変わるのか、個人によって最適のARが存在する筈で、つまるところEasyやNormalの様に低いARを高くしたり
８ですら早い、７見えないみたいな人がInsaneをやれるキャパシティーあったとしても目の関係で無理＞ARを下げれるように
みたいに遊べる譜面の幅を拡げることが真の目的なのでランクスコアとかは実はあんまり関係ない話。
スコアをランクに乗せるとするならNoneオンリーで、将来的にはAR1（ビートマニアでいうノースピアタック）みたいなものから
AR１０固定のハイスピ狂までをおなじ土台で遊べるようにするのも一つの理想。


ykcarrot wrote:

Difficulty change of AR change isn't always regular.
If player can adjust AR, score should be ignored.
Score isn't main point of this request.



TKiller wrote:

that's how it should've been from the start, but currently it will break the set game balance
I know this is late, but if we can figure out good solution from here, it will be nice.
tobaku2784
33 posts
Joined May 2009
tobaku2784
了解です。理解しました。しかしまだ疑問なので聞いておきたいと思います。

マルチの時ぼ場合どうするんですか？皆が同じ条件の下でやって競うのがマルチの面白いところだと私は思っています。なのでARを個人個人で調整するのはどうかと思います。

あとマッパーの方々が言うようにARを調整して難易度を上げたり下げたりする話ですが、極端な話EASYをAR10でやったりInsaneをAR1でやるようなのがでてくるわけです。さすがに言いすぎですがこんな事が起こり得るわけです。この点も考えていって欲しいです。
-----_old
257 posts
Joined June 2008
-----_old
This will nicely solved one of the idea i'm current supporting:
viewtopic.php?p=828419
so yeah i'm also supporting this.

nice one dvorak :)
GladiOol
4,475 posts
Joined August 2008
GladiOol

dvorak wrote:

Score isn't main point of this request.
This is kinda my main point of not supporting this.


ykcarrot wrote:

If player can adjust AR, score should be ignored.
^ exactly~
TKiller
4,390 posts
Joined May 2009
TKiller
And without scoring it's just the same as going to editor and changing it here.

Well except people won't be able to spectate you.

Duh.
waterfall
27 posts
Joined May 2009
waterfall
I think that the major problem with this is DT and HR. Unless those mods are changed, I don't think that this can work. Although it's an interesting idea, since some maps are difficult because the AR is just so low.
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock
At least make this possible with Easymod
Natteke
6,540 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke

TKiller wrote:

And without scoring it's just the same as going to editor and changing it here.

Well except people won't be able to spectate you.

Duh.
Kind of agree.
Bikko
151 posts
Joined January 2010
Bikko
This idea is preposterous to me. AR has effect for map's difficulty absolutely.

actually, some map has fast and complex combos, high density of notes, but it has low AR(OD) intentionally. this kind of intentionall low AR can makes player's confusion. on the contrary to this, low density of note and High AR can makes difficuty. This Request can breaks these intentionall difficulty of the map. NOT FOR ART, FOR ITS DIFFICULTY.

well, but in same time, yeah. I can say this idea is interesting.
however, AR has effect for map's difficulty cleary. so I suggest these if you want using this option and ranking your score.

1. The map what is older than this option, can not use this option.
2. If mapper sets AR of the map with his intentionall, mapper can use 'locking AR option' on that map.

EDIT : And we must think about Stack Leniency of the map. If player use this option freely, some position of stacked notes will be changed because of AR. I think It can makes a lot of broken Replays.

EDIT2 : 'Can use this option freely but not ranked score' can be solution maybe.
FireballFlame
280 posts
Joined May 2010
FireballFlame
Hell no.
Suzully
osu! Alumni
2,446 posts
Joined July 2010
Suzully
Hmm...I'll mention from a point of view as mapper.

I can understand the opinion that mapper want players to play by its own AR.
However in many case, mapper set AR by thinking that which AR is most readable in this mapset, and which AR is good for beginner/pro in this difficulty imo.
And also I think that it is not a problem to be selected by players.

Therefore I agree with this suggestion.
Well...actually there are some problems about score, hidden mod, etc...
Anyway it's just my opinion.
Last edited by Suzully , edited 1 time in total.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
Easy makes maps harder, you get a score penalty for it.
Hard makes maps easier, you get a score bonus for it.

And it's only because of approach rate. How the fuck does that make any sense?

This is one of those things that I can't see ever happening though. It could have been done when Approach Rate was separated from Overall Difficulty, but for some reason, it was decided to keep AR on the map side. It's really too bad, as this would make most every map playable, especially the crappy ones made before the AR/OD split.

And really, every single other rhythm game I've ever played, including osu!'s other modes have had a way to adjust approach rate on a user basis.

Bikko wrote:

FOR ITS DIFFICULTY.
Sounds like a crappy map to me. Hide and seek maps are terrible.
Kert
2,083 posts
Joined June 2009
Kert
I support this if it's only for increasing AR
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE
I read all posts in the discussion (except the japanese ones) but I'm still not getting the point of the request.

Are you guys asking to make AR a value chosen by the player?
In that case: hell no, are you all nuts?
If you can't read a map learn to sightread, that's a skill you have to master as well to be able to play a fair range of maps. Maps are not only jumps and streams, they require the ability to sightread stuff.
If you can't do that, improve at it.

I'm not asking people to limit streams only because I don't like/can't play them: either i get better at them or i don't play, easy as that.

Unless you're requesting this for training purposes and as an unranked mod or something: in that case I agree because it could be really useful.

If i misunderstood something, feel free to explain better what you mean.

ziin wrote:

Hard makes maps easier, you get a score bonus for it.
Everytime i read this i want to say this:

"AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH OH REALLY?"
Then rage.

Try playing AR/OD 9/10 and size 5 circles in hard/insane maps, then we'll talk.
Lunah_old
Lunah_old
inb4 every map 1AR and SS .

gz
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
Yes, the request is to make AR editable without having to go into the osu file.

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

ziin wrote:

Hard makes maps easier, you get a score bonus for it.
Everytime i read this i want to say this:

"AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH OH REALLY?"
Then rage.

Try playing AR/OD 9/10 and size 5 circles in hard/insane maps, then we'll talk.
Okay, I played those maps after I changed the circle size to 3, and AR/OD to 6. It was much easier using hard rock rather than without. Hard should make all maps harder, regardless of how well they were made.
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE

ziin wrote:

Okay, I played those maps after I changed the circle size to 3, and AR/OD to 6. It was much easier using hard rock rather than without. Hard should make all maps harder, regardless of how well they were made.
Mods work differently depending on the type of map you're going to play.
Some maps are easier with specific mods while other may be more tedious with the same mod.
HardRock has a great difficulty gap when applied to a map with AR7 when compared to a map with AR6.

I know about the general issue that the Easy mod actually makes about 98% of the maps more tedious, but at this point isn't it better to fix that issue instead?

Easy could be:
  1. Circle Size -1 (one tick bigger feels like the perfect value to make things easier and not messy)
  2. HP Drain -3/-4 (makes it harder to fail, thus easier to pass)
  3. OD -2/-3 (lot more leniency for 300s and spinners, thus easier to play)
Now that the approach rate is a separate value it could just stay as it is.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

I know about the general issue that the Easy mod actually makes about 98% of the maps more tedious, but at this point isn't it better to fix that issue instead?
If AR is user selectable, then Easy/Hard rock will be fixed. But honestly, at this point in the game, it's too late to fix them. Osu!'s doing fine, and this is only a wish. Even if we get something that turns it into "unranked" play, people will still play for the points. After all, if you don't get credit, why do it at all? And that mode already exists in osu, thought it's probably even more tedious than easy mode.

I do find it funny how I am much better than some of the sub-1000 rankers on easy insanes, simply because they play better/are more used to higher approach rates. Of course, if you stick hard rock on there, there's a strong likelihood that they will not only do better, but I will do much worse.
Krisom
osu! Alumni
2,867 posts
Joined April 2009
Krisom

ziin wrote:

After all, if you don't get credit, why do it at all?
I dunno, for fun? I play on relaxing sometimes =3
Not going to question the rest of the message since this is the only thing that caught my attention, please carry on with yo lives.
maay
410 posts
Joined September 2009
maay
I'm with Card N'FoRcE on this one (except for the suggested changes on easy mode, I love it the way it is). I think sightreading is part of a player's skill and should stay as it is.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
HardRock mod harkens to our Ouendan heritage, and the most recognizable changes of Hard ROCK! / Karei were the smaller circles, fast AR, and 180° flip. (osu! gets the flip wrong by only flipping vertically, not 180, but that's beside the point and can't be changed now.) Removing the AR change on HardRock subverts this. Providing separate mods to control AR adds too much complication. (This request is effectively for a "custom AR" mod.)
PSPDS Eddie
457 posts
Joined November 2009
PSPDS Eddie
流れを無視して、日本語で書きこむ。
個人的にはARは調整できたほうが、これまで門前払いだった譜面もできるようになるので嬉しい。
……が、HardRockでARが高くなるように、ARは公式的に難易度の一部として組み込まれているように、私は感じる。

ランキングというのは同じ条件で競うものだからこそ意味があるのであり、
ここでARを調整できてしまうと、その前提条件が崩れてしまうようにも思える。（modは難しくして点数を上げるのでOK）
だからといってARを調整したらmodのようにスコアが変わるのも何かがおかしいと思うので（何が言いたいか分からなくなったので略
客観的に見ると自分の感情で嫌だと言ってる感じなので理論的ではないかな？
ARを変えたときのスコアの扱いに悩む感じ。いろいろ考えたけど納得する答えが浮かばない。

つまりは何が言いたいのかというと、ARを変える機能は賛成なのだが、
ランキングには反映できないようにした方がいいかな？と言うのが私の意見です。

マルチに関しては、試合の時は変えないようにすればいいし遊びの時は変えればいい。
変えているのが分かるようにして、自分たちでその都度決めていけばいいと思います。

私見なので反論は認める
AdaunanJP
AdaunanJP
NO!!
lkjl23
207 posts
Joined July 2010
lkjl23
As much as this would benefit me, I don't want this. This is basically allowing an option to make maps easier. Everyone should have to deal with how hard it is. Bad bad idea.
dvorak_old
294 posts
Joined February 2010
Topic Starter
dvorak_old
personally, I can play AR5-9 and don't want/need this option.

But how many people are enjoying this game for difficulty, or how much % of players can see AR9+ or AR5-.

This will reduce difficulty, and could work as negative motivation for player who trained to be able to see high AR map or low AR map（include myself)
But Approach Rate isn't the option to make map more difficult as far as I understand.

In other hand, this option will expand playability for low AR / high AR attack like no-speed / high-speed play in other game.
Also all player can enjoy easy / normal with higher AR, hard insane with lower AR.

We (means who can enjoy AR9 or 10, or AR5 or lower) need to remind that we are standing on minority side :P
Also remind how many normal map are ignored due to low AR / or played with DTHR


for PSPDS Eddie

どちらかといえばHighARを下げるというよりは、Low ARを上げてNormal/Easyが誰でも楽しめるようにする方が大きい。
うちら（AR9とか10が見える人間）は少数派であるってことを理解して、残り95%も考えたほうがいいのも事実。
ノーマルとかイージーなんてDT HRなしじゃプレイできないし、middle Player（Hard辺りをメインにやる人たち）ですら
すでにノーマル以下にHR付けるのが基本になってるという現状があるよね。

後ARを上げて難易度上げるという手法ってのはARの本来の使い方じゃないわけで
その使い方をしている人に対して警鐘を鳴らす意味での提案でもある。

ついでに言えば、私は9見えるまで練習したし正直このオプションは邪魔、でも一方で自分が恐らくプレイヤープールで言う
10%以下のサイドに入っている自覚はあるので、冷徹にosu自体をを考慮するのであればこのオプションは有益。

スコアやランキング云々が大事な人達にとってはとても困る提案であることは分かってる。
TKiller
4,390 posts
Joined May 2009
TKiller

dvorak wrote:

stuff
This all is very true and I'm all for this option.

But the main problem is not in how people will accept this, problem is that the scoring balance will be changed completely, hardrock modificator will have to get changed and lots of older records will simply look weird or even silly compared to new.

And there are no obvious solutions for this except the radical ones, such as only making this possible for maps ranked after the feature gets into osu! or just implement it for all maps without penalty and put a trollface on while not giving a damn about how people react.

I'd like to make more input into this, but I have to go soon, so I'll keep it for later.
Lunah_old
Lunah_old

AdaunanJP wrote:

NO!!
:(
Ayeen_old
316 posts
Joined October 2010
Ayeen_old
Tbh, since I played almost all difficulties in mapset (which why my plays incredibly high I manage to adapt from AR2 to AR 8 accordance to the speed of map. I see this is a good idea, but as MM said some mods must be considered before implement this.
Mashley
2,042 posts
Joined September 2008
Mashley
I quite strongly disagree with this, a set AR rate keeps the map at a consistent difficulty for all players (not counting mods, but afaik HR and Easy are affected by the map's default settings.). Also, the mapper makes their map with an AR that fits the song and the map is made to be played with this AR. If there was a problem with it it should have been brought up during modding.
Zetta
334 posts
Joined December 2009
Zetta

AdaunanJP wrote:

NO!!
The multi speaks!

However I agree with him.

No. This is quite a silly idea. Don't even know how it got this many stars to be honest. If peppy adds this option it'll only be a matter of time before someone says "Oh the maps BPM is too fast for me, add option to slow it down lulz?" and then it'll just snowball from there.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Zetta wrote:

No. This is quite a silly idea. Don't even know how it got this many stars to be honest. If peppy adds this option it'll only be a matter of time before someone says "Oh the maps BPM is too fast for me, add option to slow it down lulz?" and then it'll just snowball from there.
A) Your argument is silly, and someone has already said that.
B) It already exists in Double and Half Time
C) it would not be a bad thing to slow the song down in 25%, 50%, 75% or speed it up 133%, 166%, 200% so long as the modes are unranked. These modes already exist in other games (usually called practice mode or something).

Mashley wrote:

I quite strongly disagree with this, a set AR rate keeps the map at a consistent difficulty for all players
A set AR rate does not keep the map at a consistent difficulty for all players because AR is not linear in difficulty and varies from person to person.

AR does not affect score at all. An AR which is set to a non-optimized rate is added difficulty for the player with no reward.
Jarby
2,962 posts
Joined August 2008
Jarby

ziin wrote:

A set AR rate does not keep the map at a consistent difficulty for all players because AR is not linear in difficulty and varies from person to person.
That's like saying that beatmaps aren't consistent in difficulty because players have different skill levels in different areas. Of course AR difficulty varies from person to person, you clod.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc
If this was an unranked mod, I would be okay
With it. If this was a ranked mod, I would say no. I say no because this what practice is for. This would defeat the purpose of hardrock. Also, along with what jar said, different players have different strengths and weaknesses. Like some players are good at large spacing and jumps while others are good at streams etc
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

ouranhshc wrote:

If this was an unranked mod, I would be okay
This already exists and is called the editor.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

mm201 wrote:

ouranhshc wrote:

If this was an unranked mod, I would be okay
This already exists and is called the editor.
True. I'm going to go with a big no then. (nice name change)
Avedas
68 posts
Joined February 2011
Avedas
IMO you should only be able to raise the AR. guitar hero has it's hyper speed cheat or whatever and stuff like that. While it may be "easier" to some players it still technically takes more skill and shouldn't have any real effect on the scoreboards.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Jarby wrote:

That's like saying that beatmaps aren't consistent in difficulty because players have different skill levels in different areas.
Beatmap difficulty is abstract and not easily definable (see star rating). It depends a lot on the song and the skill of the beatmap creator. AR is completely separate and is represented in a linear fashion when in reality its impact on difficulty is not linear.

This is more of an issue of "I want to be considered better than you because I have visual acuity" vs "I want to be able to have fun while playing more beatmaps." Anyone in opposition to such a feature is not required to use it. It is also not the same as beatmap difficulty because streams and jumps are not in every single map to the same degree. Approach rate is.

Of course the flipside of all this is that as mm said, this already exists, and the people whining about it want a less tedious option, and would obviously prefer it to be still rankable.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn

ziin wrote:

Jarby wrote:

That's like saying that beatmaps aren't consistent in difficulty because players have different skill levels in different areas.
Beatmap difficulty is abstract and not easily definable (see star rating). It depends a lot on the song and the skill of the beatmap creator. AR is completely separate and is represented in a linear fashion when in reality its impact on difficulty is not linear.

This is more of an issue of "I want to be considered better than you because I have visual acuity" vs "I want to be able to have fun while playing more beatmaps." Anyone in opposition to such a feature is not required to use it. It is also not the same as beatmap difficulty because streams and jumps are not in every single map to the same degree. Approach rate is.

Of course the flipside of all this is that as mm said, this already exists, and the people whining about it want a less tedious option, and would obviously prefer it to be still rankable.
None of the difficulty settings are in fact linear in difficulty at all. ar rates should be chosen according to the density of incoming notes at an average over the entire map, specifically at a rate where the player can see far enough ahead to react, but not so far ahead that note confusion becomes an issue. This is very hard to pin down, especially with the fact that people get used to certain ars over others (ar8 and 9 especially)

OD and HP are just as important to choose as ar, yet people don't mind as much since having an off-kilter setting on those two won't drastically impact a player's ability to play a map.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I don't see why we have an AR setting if we could just choose our own AR? Also isn't approach rate indirectly related to how we perceive a beat or portion of a rhythm. So could we be sure that in all cases this option would benefit the flow of the song? Because I just picture people setting their OMG crazy map at a low AR that the spacing doesn't support just to take advantage of this feature. Furthermore I don't see how you could balance out a lower than OD AR setting as approach rate does relate to how easy a beat is to hit.

Example


Take any Easy mode and put AR 10. Tell me if its harder or the same challenge to play it. Do the same for an insane. Put AR 1 and tell me if it's any easier. Base the challenge off of ability to read the beat and not how much clutter it causes.


We must have a clear understanding of what effects this would have before we could even think of implementing it.
Mashley
2,042 posts
Joined September 2008
Mashley
Yeah, should I have the option to choose my own circle size too? Small circles are much too hard for some players!
TKiller
4,390 posts
Joined May 2009
TKiller
you guys are really not getting it
Waryas
Waryas
But again this will allow people to rank some kind of maps more easily.
Take these maps for instance :

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/65756&m=0
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/24023&m=0

Play it normallly, post your score.
Change it to AR9/AR10 (whateveryou're most comfortable with) and post your score.

For some people, higher AR means easier to do jumps/patterns (I am unable to snap to notes on jumps on any AR lower than 9) and that's why it'll create unbalance on some maps.
Many factors have to be considered before making this possible.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn

JesusYamato wrote:

But again this will allow people to rank some kind of maps more easily.
Take these maps for instance :

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/65756&m=0
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/24023&m=0

Play it normallly, post your score.
Change it to AR9/AR10 (whateveryou're most comfortable with) and post your score.

For some people, higher AR means easier to do jumps/patterns (I am unable to snap to notes on jumps on any AR lower than 9) and that's why it'll create unbalance on some maps.
Many factors have to be considered before making this possible.
>Bikko
no
>chocobo
fffffuuuuuuu rage
Waryas
Waryas
Those maps are not full FC in their top40 mainly because the low AR makes it confusing ON PURPOSE.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

JesusYamato wrote:

Those maps are not full FC in their top40 mainly because the low AR makes it confusing ON PURPOSE.
1) Madness is meant for touchscreen >_>
2) you choose an mtmcl map from 2008
Waryas
Waryas
2) you choose an mtmcl map from 2008
This is my point, exactly.
Allowing us to choose our own AR will make ranking on some maps especially easier and that might be unfair to those who ranked on them when AR was still fixed.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

JesusYamato wrote:

2) you choose an mtmcl map from 2008
This is my point, exactly.
Allowing us to choose our own AR will make ranking on some maps especially easier and that might be unfair to those who ranked on them when AR was still fixed.
and how many maps are like this?
Waryas
Waryas
I can post a list of maps that are in fact easier (again this is in my opinion/for me) if you increase the AR :
Every 2008/2009 maps.
Every Easy/normal/Hard
Any Jumpy/Pattern on AR8-.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

JesusYamato wrote:

I can post a list of maps that are in fact easier (again this is in my opinion/for me) if you increase the AR :
Every 2008/2009 maps.
Every Easy/normal/Hard
Any Jumpy/Pattern on AR8-.
I dont' think changing the AR is going to make a jump any easier, the jump is still a jump. a 1.5x jump will still be a 1.5x jump no matter what the AR is.

Judging by the people who are supporting this thread, it is a tiny group of people compared to the number of players on osu!

How many people actually play maps from 2008
TKiller
4,390 posts
Joined May 2009
TKiller

ouranhshc wrote:

JesusYamato wrote:

I can post a list of maps that are in fact easier (again this is in my opinion/for me) if you increase the AR :
Every 2008/2009 maps.
Every Easy/normal/Hard
Any Jumpy/Pattern on AR8-.
I dont' think changing the AR is going to make a jump any easier, the jump is still a jump. a 1.5x jump will still be a 1.5x jump no matter what the AR is.

Judging by the people who are supporting this thread, it is a tiny group of people compared to the number of players on osu!

How many people actually play maps from 2008
a lot and you're completely missing the point

Also interesting that only raising the AR is being discussed, since lowering it breaks the set balance just as much as increasing
Froslass
Beatmap Nominator
9,344 posts
Joined July 2008
Froslass

ouranhshc wrote:

How many people actually play maps from 2008
I don't agree with this request, but this was so retarded that it made me cry.
Waryas
Waryas

This is the only way I can see this idea working without breaking the current balance : make it an option for future maps and the mapper is free to tick it or not.
Shael_old
Shael_old

ouranhshc wrote:

JesusYamato wrote:

I can post a list of maps that are in fact easier (again this is in my opinion/for me) if you increase the AR :
Every 2008/2009 maps.
Every Easy/normal/Hard
Any Jumpy/Pattern on AR8-.
I dont' think changing the AR is going to make a jump any easier, the jump is still a jump. a 1.5x jump will still be a 1.5x jump no matter what the AR is.

Judging by the people who are supporting this thread, it is a tiny group of people compared to the number of players on osu!

How many people actually play maps from 2008
yes, but using your reflexes to hit the jumps are actually easier for me than playing it with low AR

best example would be this, http://osu.ppy.sh/s/23667, i can't fc it without HR but with, i can
Lybydose
osu! Alumni
2,024 posts
Joined January 2009
Lybydose
Approach rate is something that should have been user defined from the start. It's a bit late for that though because it would break existing maps and mods. There's a reason many other rhythm games let you choose your own scroll speed; it's something that ultimately comes down to personal preference, not play skill.

By having maps set the approach rate rather than the user, you run into a few weird circumstances. Take me for example. When I first started this game, I couldn't play it on any difficulty. Why? The approach rates on Easy/Normal maps were so damn low I couldn't figure anything out. The approach rates on Hard/Insane maps were perfect for me, but I couldn't play the maps because the patterns were too hard or fast. It seems kind of stupid that the "Easier" difficulties were so much more difficult for me that I preferred playing Insane right from the start. I suck ass at DDR and Rock Band, but the Easy/Medium charts feel much more balanced than this game, simply because I can choose the speed I want, rather than being forced to "superslowunreadable" speed.

It's only after playing for a while that I could finally read the slower speeds, and yet those speeds are commonplace amongst what are supposed to be "Easy" maps.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn

Lybydose wrote:

It's only after playing for a while that I could finally read the slower speeds, and yet those speeds are commonplace amongst what are supposed to be "Easy" maps.
Precisely the opposite for me, things worked out perfectly on my end.
TKiller
4,390 posts
Joined May 2009
TKiller

Lybydose wrote:

Approach rate is something that should have been user defined from the start. It's a bit late for that though because it would break existing maps and mods. There's a reason many other rhythm games let you choose your own scroll speed; it's something that ultimately comes down to personal preference, not play skill.
That's basically what I said a few days ago in this thread.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
And everyone else is saying that "personal preference" IS play skill. I agree with them, but I don't think it's a skill we need to foster, and 90% of rhythm games agree with me, including taiko and CTB (making it faster only).

I like JesusYamato's suggestion with a user defined in the map, but that is still left to the beatmap creator. Likewise it does not solve the problem in currently ranked maps (where we really need it, newer maps are of much higher quality). Should this be added (including any sort of storyboard toggle or skin toggle in similar fasion) people will be considered "assholes" if they do not check that box. Eventually it would become as standard as circle size 4 is to check that box.

I agree with lybydose however. It's a bit late for this. Osu! is thriving. Should this pass, it would anger a lot of people. If it doesn't pass, no change occurs, nobody gets pissed off.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
Taiko can be ignored in this discussion as their approach rate is determined by slider velocity; not in the difficulty settings, and the standard et for taiko is through-and-by 1.4 / 1.6 with varying amounts on high bpms / very low bpms.

ar is extremely important to ctb (just as, if not more so, than standard), however because the ability to react to fruits changes entirely - I know Mei, Poker Face, Go Beyond, etcetcetc would not be anywhere near as challenging (note: NOT "hard") if we could just throw it from ar9 to ar 7 or 8. It'd also screw with how dt works, where people can just use very low ars combined with dt to make reacting much easier than it should be.
Last edited by Shiirn , edited 1 time in total.
dvorak_old
294 posts
Joined February 2010
Topic Starter
dvorak_old
As I wrote before, AR change option should stick with None mod.
any mod which give player plus multiplier should follow mapper's default AR setting.

or remove all score + multiplier from mod, well this should be talked in another thread.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Shiirn wrote:

Taiko can be ignored in this discussion as their approach rate is determined by slider velocity; not in the difficulty settings, and the standard et for taiko is through-and-by 1.4 / 1.6 with varying amounts on high bpms / very low bpms.

ar is extremely important to ctb (just as, if not more so, than standard), however because the ability to react to fruits changes entirely - I know Mei, Poker Face, Go Beyond, etcetcetc would not be anywhere near as challenging (note: NOT "hard") if we could just throw it from ar9 to ar 7 or 8. It'd also screw with how dt works, where people can just use very low ars combined with dt to make reacting much easier than it should be.
Cover up the top half/ right side of the screen with another window/piece of paper. Instant AR 9.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn

ziin wrote:

Cover up the top half/ right side of the screen with another window/piece of paper. Instant AR 9.
lolno, you're describing flashlight.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Shiirn wrote:

ziin wrote:

Cover up the top half/ right side of the screen with another window/piece of paper. Instant AR 9.
lolno, you're describing flashlight.
flashlight maxes out at 200 combo, which is often much too small, and it's a constant reduction irrelevant to BPM, not like screen shrinking, which is customizable down to the pixel.
TKiller
4,390 posts
Joined May 2009
TKiller

dvorak wrote:

As I wrote before, AR change option should stick with None mod.
any mod which give player plus multiplier should follow mapper's default AR setting.

or remove all score + multiplier from mod, well this should be talked in another thread.
you weren't really clear

ziin wrote:

Cover up the top half/ right side of the screen with another window/piece of paper. Instant AR 9.
lol beatmania




Anyway.

Making AR user-definable is a completely proved logical idea already. Seriously.

What we guys need to discuss is the way of keeping the balance and how to trick peppy into coding this. If there is one.
Avedas
68 posts
Joined February 2011
Avedas

TKiller wrote:

Making AR user-definable is a completely proved logical idea already. Seriously.

What we guys need to discuss is the way of keeping the balance and how to trick peppy into coding this. If there is one.
lol.

Yeah, I agree with this.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
Might as well throw in a support post for this myself. Played a map today where it seemed like the AR in one difficulty was artifically lowered a couple notches to "fix" the difficulty curve (or just plain chosen poorly) and it was pretty bad...
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

Soaprman wrote:

Might as well throw in a support post for this myself. Played a map today where it seemed like the AR in one difficulty was artifically lowered a couple notches to "fix" the difficulty curve (or just plain chosen poorly) and it was pretty bad...
I just played this one map. It had this jump at the most awful place, seemingly just to artificially inflate the difficulty. We should make an automatic jump remover and let players chose their own spacing.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
Yeah, you're right, that post of mine was kind of bad. I still agree with this feature request though.
Metro
693 posts
Joined April 2010
Metro
I don't like this idea at all but answering TKiller:

Players should only be able to lower AR and if they do there should be a negative score multiplier. This is the only way not to kill game balance.

But there's another thing that should be taken into consideration:

If players start lowering song's AR then they won't get better. Playing high bpm / high AR maps is part of what makes you improve in this game.

That said, I completely disagree with this idea.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Man like 2 people have realized the obvious. If it makes it easier for you, than it is giving you an unfair advantage over other players... This idea should be voided just for that purpose.


Just because you can play AR 10 doesn't mean most of Osu can/should. And if playing a map with AR 10 gives you an advantage than that's unfair since you can't expect everyone to play a map in AR 10.
Metro
693 posts
Joined April 2010
Metro
Yeah but Easy, Half Time and No Fail are ranked mods and they are the same as what is being suggested. I don't like that they are ranked mods. Maps should be played in their original form or harder, not easier. But that's how the game is and I doubt it'll change.
Wishy
2,972 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Even while I agree with the suggestion, it'll completly break the game balance, some players are pro at reading retarded AR (aka AR lower than 7) and that gives you an advantage. I personally have a hard time doing jumps on AR 8 (find it easier with 9 or 10) and being able to increase it without getting OD 99999 and Circle Size >9000 would be an huge help. Even when I know the AR should be defined by the user instead of the mapper (except with mods), the game is currently just like this and changing it wouldn't do any good tbh.

However I agree with Metro, players should be able to lower AR by getting a negative bonus (10% per point?). Doubt anyone's gonna use it since AR 9 is pretty much easy to read for most people I know, and AR 8 is like standar nowadays so whatever.
D33d
1,699 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
I honestly don't see a point to this. If a map is too hard, then the player simply isn't good enough for it. If a map is approved and played for being good enough on its own merits, then why would the player need to alter it? Doing so would disrupt the flow of a map. For one, slow approach rates in high difficulties would make the whole experience feel disjointed.
Hamuko
4,717 posts
Joined April 2009
Hamuko
Imo if this was implemented, it would break the flow of maps.
Don't know how to explain. It just would.
Matty
21 posts
Joined July 2008
Matty
Having read through most of the thread . . . nah. I mean, an uncomfortable approach rate can be annoying, but it can be easily countered. If it's too slow you just have to keep playing the map until you memorise the timing. If it's too fast, as you keep playing you'll adjust to the high rate anyway, and get a vague idea of where the notes are, so you can prepare yourself better. In addition, the feature would greatly decrease the difficulty of hard time, and probably skew the rankings quite horribly as a result.
Ussuru
Ussuru
Ughh, just no. Think about it, all games have a certain skill level. I can't pass AR 11, but I can play AR 10. Two months ago I couldn't even touch AR 9, same goes for other things like streams, jumps, stamina, nervousness and my cat which jumps on me when I am playing. Just get better that's all.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

Matty wrote:

If it's too slow you just have to keep playing the map until you memorise the timing.
Perfect spacing is a must with slow AR. If the map is confusing, the BAT should tell the mapper to raise the AR.
DelMann2
22 posts
Joined April 2011
DelMann2
Such a nonsense.

It alone defines a part of difficulty of song, not to even mention, that it makes a song visual appearence too.

w
t
f

Do you seriously want this to be user-defined?

NO!
Shael_old
Shael_old
it would be nice, because some people are not used to lower ar than 9

all other rhythm games have custom approach rate too, since it's preference
awp
osu! Alumni
11,869 posts
Here since the beginning
awp
Why are we still dawdling around in the past/present when we can escalate this to the future. No more features asking to enable/disable kiai time, adjust background darkness, define your own circle size/approach rate

Let's just let players make/customize their own maps. That way EVERYBODY is happy. Because that's the direction we're going, here.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
make easy mod customize map settings.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,560 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
uhhh isn't reading different AR's just as much a skill as hitting jumps, small circles or streaming? I'd like this for an unranked mod, sure, but not as a ranked one. If the reason is to enjoy more maps and having fun, then you probably won't mind it being unranked anyway.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
If it were a skill like you say we would have more ar 4- insanes, because it's clearly harder.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

ziin wrote:

If it were a skill like you say we would have more ar 4- insanes, because it's clearly harder.
Actually, I find AR 4 easier than AR 9 simply because I am able to read it easily, and don't have to react like I have to with AR 9. In fact, I hate it when AR 9 is used on songs that aren't really really fast, because then it's just a pain.

Therefore, because it's easier, it shouldn't be used on Insanes. You're so silly. \o/
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Ekaru wrote:

ziin wrote:

If it were a skill like you say we would have more ar 4- insanes, because it's clearly harder.
Actually, I find AR 4 easier than AR 9 simply because I am able to read it easily, and don't have to react like I have to with AR 9. In fact, I hate it when AR 9 is used on songs that aren't really really fast, because then it's just a pain.

Therefore, because it's easier, it shouldn't be used on Insanes. You're so silly. \o/
which is easier: AR 4 or AR 7? We have circle size 6 insanes. We don't have any approach rate 4 insanes, or at least none that I've seen.

The game isn't fun if you don't know where the next note is. If a bunch of notes are stacked/clustered in one area, you need a higher AR to be able to separate the notes. Otherwise everything becomes a CF and you end up getting lost. It's the same as having an approach rate which is too high.
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