this would be a pretty convenient implementation to the game
Nao Tomori wrote:
i think necessitating it in tags (cut, shortened, etc), and in description is a minimum standard that should be applied . aside from that i think putting it in title would be fine too but others may have different opinions.
helix wrote:
I expect people will bring up the fact that mappers can just add 'cut version' or something similar to the tags (which some have already been doing) and that isn't really enough imo.
Surely editing the mp3 in this way constitutes it being a remix, meaning it would be perfectly fine to change the metadata to suit the changes - (cut ver.), (short ver.) or something to that effect
eiri- wrote:
Definitely agree that if something is cut, at the very least include it in tags. (Cut, short, etc)
eiri- wrote:
Although, I feel like this would be weird to force onto many songs since people would be required to check if there was a longer version than whatever was mapped (From a modding PoV)
eiri- wrote:
and it would also require a definition as to what is cut/remixed/whatever depending on the criteria of the marker.
Noffy wrote:
Also, about harumachi clover example listed. This case is because it is currently impossible to retroactively change map metadata.
TV Size harumachi clovers ranked after last year's metadata changes have the standardized tags, while those from before the rule changes do not. Maps ranked before a (Cut Ver.) rule is added would still not have the label, unless osu's set-up changes in a way to make those changes possible after rank.
Noffy wrote:
The main issues are as eiri- has written but shouldn't be too big of a concern for most cases as song length is usually easily identified when finding metadata. Also https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/topics/917229 will probably need defining of what is or isn't considered a cut too, so this and that thread go hand in hand.
Trynna wrote:
I don't think it's super convenient to have a rule that says like "oh you must use (Short Ver.) if a song has it in it's title" but then add (Cut Ver.) just to mess things up for the ppl checking it. If anything, a way to merge those two would be better than just adding one more marker. I don't think being an official cut or not is that benefitial to know from a player's perspective, as in the end they are trying to show something extremely similar
The point of my proposal is to have the information in the title though, to avoid this:Nozhomi wrote:
I would agree with Nao, using tags to inform about if it’s cut or not + description should be enough to not mess too much with the current metadata system.
dong wrote:
I believe that all cuts/mixes of songs, official or unofficial, must have this fact specified somewhere which is visible in both osu!direct and the website's beatmap listing.
dong wrote:
My proposition is that any beatmap featuring an unofficial cut of a song should specify so in the title using the term "(Cut ver.)".
These are the cases I am talking about where this distinction is necessary, yes. What makes a non-anime song weird here? Have you seen Sotarks' Gold Dust mapset, for example? Why would the distinction be necessary for your examples but not a 'non-anime song'?realy0_ wrote:
imo i really agree with this but for the case when the song is actually extended, it is just misleading cuz a cut often meant shorter version of the song, not a longer official tv size ver
the case i'm actually talking about is when you cut a full ver into a tv size but with extra parts of the song like https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/775766#osu/1630299 or https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/745312#osu/1571309
also for non-anime songs it would be super weird imo
Isn't this song from a video game? Of course the track is gonna be looped. Cutting a looped song is expected, see, for example, any Pokémon or Undertale BGM map.Mirash wrote:
it seems like a good idea but at the same time i dont want to add CUT VERSION to all of the zts tracks that are basically looped for 9 minutes
https://old.ppy.sh/s/889315 this for example is a cut and doesn't suffer from it anyhow and i dont think people need to know its a cut
dong wrote:
realy0_ wrote:
imo i really agree with this but for the case when the song is actually extended, it is just misleading cuz a cut often meant shorter version of the song, not a longer official tv size ver
the case i'm actually talking about is when you cut a full ver into a tv size but with extra parts of the song like https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/775766#osu/1630299 or https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/745312#osu/1571309
also for non-anime songs it would be super weird imo
These are the cases I am talking about where this distinction is necessary, yes. What makes a non-anime song weird here? Have you seen Sotarks' Gold Dust mapset, for example? Why would the distinction be necessary for your examples but not a 'non-anime song'?
Well, going by this definition, if a song that loops (such as a BGM like an Undertale, Pokémon or zts track as previously mentioned) is cut, does that count as removing a portion of audio? I think if a song loops indefinitely then an exception can be made so long as a cut is not made part-way through a loop.glossygloss wrote:
Cut: A song file that has had a portion of audio removed to shorten the beatmapset's play time.
In this case, the shorter version is the original version, so no metadata changes need to be made - the cut ver. marker should not be added - and the extended ver. is as expected the version with the extended ver. marker. I think that each different version of a track should be distinguished starting from the original version of the song. If an artist makes a new version of the same song, whether shortened or extended, without their own marker in the official metadata, it should then be added based on which version is the original version.Ryuusei Aika wrote:
one case can be the very first version of a song is "full ver", like nearly all rhythm game songs, their first version is the original one while their "full ver" are actually called "extended ver", "original mix" etc. so in that case, players would like to see the shorter (original) version while downloading those rhythm game songs so adding a cut ver after those shorter songs shows disrespect to the artist and also conflict with the initial point with that proposal (well standardize tv size/short ver/game ver is also disrespectful but that's another story)
the second one is more reasonable since it divides the "propose of the artist" and "propose of the fan-made" better and respect the artist to some extent.
pishifat wrote:
i don't have much opinion on this proposal, so i'm gonna run it by all bn/nat members to see what they think. hopefully we'll be able to reach a conclusion in a few days
Proposal wrote:
If the song is an unofficial cut that is not made that way for a remix or cover, it should include (Cut Ver.) at the end of the current title string. This is to easily distinguish shortened versions of songs from their full length counterparts. Exceptions are if a song is only slightly shortened where musical sections match the original song, or if the cut is (a) full loop(s) from a looping track.
If the song is shortened for reasons other than a remix, a cover, or an official cut, it should include (Short Ver.) at the end of its title. This is to clearly signify shortened songs from their full versions. Songs that are insignificantly shortened, songs that are shortened in ways that nearly match their original versions, and songs that are a full loop of a looping track are exempt.
realy0_ wrote:
i wonder how this would be applied to cases where you use a unoffical extended mp3 ? do you have to put a (Cut Ver.) in the second map if it doesn't follow this ? "This is to easily distinguish shortened versions of songs from their full length counterparts."
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/514204#osu/1092402
(official)
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/515939#osu/1095534
(unofficial extension)
Serizawa Haruki wrote:
The problem about this is that it still wouldn't differentiate between different cut lenghts. A 30 second cut and a 2:30 cut would have the same exact title which would still be misleading.
Serizawa Haruki wrote:
Also, the reason why the (Short Ver.) marker wasn't enforced on all game size maps (like TV Size for anime openings) is that it would affect a large number of maps and it would make things even more complicated so it wouldn't make much sense to enforce (Cut Ver.) on so many maps.
Serizawa Haruki wrote:
And I think someone already mentioned this earlier but in some cases it's actually really hard to find out how long the original song is unless you buy the single/album somewhere, and it could be confusing if a song was released with different lengths without indicating short/full version, this has actually happened to me on some of my maps.
dong wrote:
realy0_ wrote:
i wonder how this would be applied to cases where you use a unoffical extended mp3 ? do you have to put a (Cut Ver.) in the second map if it doesn't follow this ? "This is to easily distinguish shortened versions of songs from their full length counterparts."
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/514204#osu/1092402
(official)
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/515939#osu/1095534
(unofficial extension)
then it is an "Extended ver."..?
realy0_ wrote:
so then it has to be precised in the purposal or else people would be confused
Serizawa Haruki wrote:
The problem about this is that it still wouldn't differentiate between different cut lenghts. A 30 second cut and a 2:30 cut would have the same exact title which would still be misleading.
As I said, this problem can easily be solved by simply adding information about the map length in osu!direct/on the website or by clicking on the mapdong wrote:
The problem is differentiating between the official length of the song and any cut version. If I download a beatmap without any indication that it differs from the official, original version of the song, I expect it to be the official, original version of the song. If the marker is added then I at least know which map is the official length and which have been 'butchered'. Differentiating between a million different varieties of 'cut version' is unimportant.
Serizawa Haruki wrote:
Also, the reason why the (Short Ver.) marker wasn't enforced on all game size maps (like TV Size for anime openings) is that it would affect a large number of maps and it would make things even more complicated so it wouldn't make much sense to enforce (Cut Ver.) on so many maps.
I wouldn't say it is, these standardization rules are supposed to be somewhat consistent with each other, meaning that if (Cut Ver.) is enforced on all maps, the same thing would have to be done with (Short Ver.) but apparently it has already been decided that (Short Ver.) shouldn't be enforced. I also don't consider it a problem like you say. Before the standardization rules existed, the metadata wasn't wrong, just handled differently. Standardization doesn't necessarily equal progress.dong wrote:
This point is moot because why let a problem persist just because it has existed for years? Progress means progress. I was previously unaware that 'TV Size' markers weren't required for official TV Size cuts. If that's the case, that is unequivocably stupid.
Serizawa Haruki wrote:
And I think someone already mentioned this earlier but in some cases it's actually really hard to find out how long the original song is unless you buy the single/album somewhere, and it could be confusing if a song was released with different lengths without indicating short/full version, this has actually happened to me on some of my maps.
Yes you usually know if you cut an mp3 but BNs also need to check the metadata which means they have to find out whether it's a cut or not. Also, some people just take mp3s from other maps so they wouldn't know if it's cut or not. Regarding the different versions of the same song, sometimes they are released at the same time or the release date is unknown. And "just doing the research" is not really possible if no information is available at all.dong wrote:
You should know if you cut an mp3 yourself first of all, but this just boils down to whether or not you even care about having proper metadata, which the ranking criteria definitely should. If the artist themselves doesn't specify in the official metadata then the earliest released version of the track should not have a marker, and those shorter and longer than the original release should use the unofficial markers discussed in this thread, in my opinion. If it's just 'hard to find out', then just do the research.
Sure, but how would you know the length specified in osu!direct/the site isn't the length of the official release? You would either have to search for the length of other ranked maps or scour the internet for metadata which you state later on in the post might be impossible.Serizawa Haruki wrote:
As I said, this problem can easily be solved by simply adding information about the map length in osu!direct/on the website or by clicking on the map
Speaking as someone whose interest in the issue stems outside of rhythm games, there are very few cases where the source metadata are not available somewhere online; even if it's not, you can usually find the length of the full version by searching for it on a video site such as YouTube or niconico. If you're re-using an mp3 from another set, then there will be a link back to the original metadata which usually contains the length. If you have sourced the mp3 from somewhere else online, then there will almost definitely be metadata on it.Serizawa Haruki wrote:
Yes you usually know if you cut an mp3 but BNs also need to check the metadata which means they have to find out whether it's a cut or not. Also, some people just take mp3s from other maps so they wouldn't know if it's cut or not. Regarding the different versions of the same song, sometimes they are released at the same time or the release date is unknown. And "just doing the research" is not really possible if no information is available at all.
Serizawa Haruki wrote:
As I said, this problem can easily be solved by simply adding information about the map length in osu!direct/on the website or by clicking on the map
Adding (Cut Ver.) to every second map kinda goes against the idea of "Do not modify the metadata an artist provides on official sources unless said modification is done in order to comply with formatting and standardisation rules on this Ranking Criteria." Even if this falls under the exceptions, the rule would become pointless because contrary to (TV Size) and (Short Ver.), this one is an artificial marker which changes the metadata of the map. The (Cut Ver.) marker doesn't exist in the official metadata, but TV Size and Short Ver are common in official sources, so enforcing those make sense for standardization purposes, however this one doesn't.helix wrote:
Sure, but how would you know the length specified in osu!direct/the site isn't the length of the official release? You would either have to search for the length of other ranked maps or scour the internet for metadata which you state later on in the post might be impossible.
Serizawa Haruki wrote:
Yes you usually know if you cut an mp3 but BNs also need to check the metadata which means they have to find out whether it's a cut or not. Also, some people just take mp3s from other maps so they wouldn't know if it's cut or not. Regarding the different versions of the same song, sometimes they are released at the same time or the release date is unknown. And "just doing the research" is not really possible if no information is available at all.
Like I said, some songs are not available on platforms such as YouTube or niconico, you have to buy them or find a sketchy website with pirated music if you're lucky. As for taking the mp3 from another map, it's not true that the map always contains a metadata link. This usually only happens on ranked maps, pending and graveyarded maps often don't have that. And a lot of older ranked maps don't have it either because the metadata rules were less strict some years ago.helix wrote:
Speaking as someone whose interest in the issue stems outside of rhythm games, there are very few cases where the source metadata are not available somewhere online; even if it's not, you can usually find the length of the full version by searching for it on a video site such as YouTube or niconico. If you're re-using an mp3 from another set, then there will be a link back to the original metadata which usually contains the length. If you have sourced the mp3 from somewhere else online, then there will almost definitely be metadata on it.
I don't really understand the need to be informed about the length of the original song. You said "if they play a shortened version of a map they may not look for other versions of the song since they may think this is the only officially released length" but if someone wants to look up the song of a map they played, they will do so regardless of map length, and then they will probably find the full version themselves.helix wrote:
I can see you're personally invested in this issue because 3/4 of your ranked maps are cut significantly from the official versions (presumably to match the length of the TV-size versions) with no indication there's actually a longer version available. Looking at this from the perspective of a player, as I mentioned earlier, if they play a shortened version of a map they may not look for other versions of the song since they may think this is the only officially released length.
If I'm not being succinct enough, in my opinion, this change is not only important for the players in the sense that they get the best gameplay experience, but also for ensuring the quality of the metadata in the ranked section.