Serizawa Haruki wrote:

You agreed to make exceptions for looping songs for the exact same reason though, repetition. I don't see how this is any different just because one section is looping rather than the entire song.

Anyway, there are other songs which exemplify this issue more evidently:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duNvbqZzLd8
This song loops the same rhythm for 1.5 minutes at the end (starting from 5:50) which is more than 20% of the entire song's length. Forcing people to map, let alone play, this entire section isn't sensible because it would be an extremely stale and boring experience for most people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wjZrswriz0
This song has a long period of almost silence at the end, the only sounds are faint drums with the rhythm of a metronome. I'm pretty sure that any map of this song that does not cut out the last part would be vetoed due to the lack of engaging gameplay (as we have seen on other maps before).

dong wrote:

I am not making a case against cut versions. I am making a case for including a marker for unofficial cut versions. You have provided some extreme examples and I would be happy for people to cut them so long as such a marker is provided, though personally I think that if the current ranking criteria cannot make an exception for such extreme cases in allowing the final parts of these songs to extend into the results screen with a skip despite being over 20%, then that part of the ranking criteria is also flawed.

I have the impression you don't fully understand the problem. Of course people could still cut these songs, but they would basically be forced to do so and they would have no other option than adding the (Cut Ver.) marker, although they are only removing parts of the song that wouldn't be mapped anyway.

You are right that the 20% rule is somewhat flawed for these cases, but removing it would also not be a viable solution because that would allow mappers to only map a fraction of the entire song without cutting the audio file, resulting in an awkward gameplay experience and unnecessarily big file size.

Consequently, there either needs to be an exception from the marker rule for songs that cut more than the last 20% of the song in order to comply with that rule due to having a section at the end that is not suitable for mapping, or that rule needs to be modified as you said. There is actually a thread about it: community/forums/topics/996498

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

You are overemphasizing the importance of the "official" status, there is no clear difference between an official and unofficial cut, neither regarding length nor quality. Recreations of official cuts are also technically unofficial so treating them differently proves that such a distinction is not necessary.

dong wrote:

In your opinion? And why would you recreate an official cut unless the official cut is somehow unusable? In which case yeah, you have an unofficial cut. The point is that I expect a map without a marker to be the full version or some official cut for which I may or may not have prior knowledge about existing. There is a clear difference if an official shorter version of, say, Gold Dust (which is already a short version, but it's official and the most well known version) or Airplanes simply does not exist - then I expect it to be one of the official lengths that I have prior knowledge of!

It's hard to follow your train of thought when you contradict yourself repeatedly. First you added a clause that says recreations of official cuts don't count towards the rule but now you say that it would be an unofficial cut. Recreations are not uncommon as there is often no high quality audio file available for the short version so people have to use the full version and cut it themselves.

Anyway, I still don't see why it matters whether a shorter version is official or not. I saw your video about Airplanes and I highly doubt your reaction would've been different if that version were official and you simply didn't know it exists, since you were disappointed about the fact that it ended sooner than expected, not about it being unofficial. This is why I'm arguing that the key aspect is the length, not whether it's official or not.

honestly, i just really want to see this resolved

okay, so problem:

If unofficial cut versions are made to include "cut ver." in the title, should this be extended to official short versions which do not include "short ver." or similar in the official metadata similarly to the TV size ruling?

I don't think this is for two people to decide arguing with each other.

i think just using cut ver. is better imo. cut ver. implies that it's a cut version made by you, while short ver. implies that this is the rerecorded version made to be short

okay, so i think this could work (nats check maybe)

RC wrote:

Unofficial short versions of maps must have the (Cut ver.) tag attached to it. Fanmade works are included if they're considered "(TV Size)" Official short versions that have the (Cut ver.) tag attached to it are to be replaced with (Short ver.).

After reading through the thread (wow, that was long) here is what I've done, based off the various opinions and issues presented.


There is now a pull request open on github

This PR does a few things:
- Adds a rule for cut versions having it in the title
- Moves the 20% outro to guidelines. It should have been a guideline anyways as it has exceptions. Added unmappable audio due to fade out or timing to the exceptions. There should not be songs that HAVE to be cut now when the outro isn't mappable, which was a major issue brought up here.
- Fixed phrasing for short ver./game ver. slightly to make it clear other similar markers apply to those standardizations.

I'll leave it open for one week so people have time to see it and make suggestions for it as it has been a long-standing RC issue - this is probably one of our oldest RC related threads to have stayed active throughout. The main issue present on osu is cut versions, so I am considering extensions out of scope for now. Please make a new thread for that if needed.

Why are the exceptions mentioned in the original rule being omitted now?

I also can't stress this enough but this actually doesn't make things clearer, in fact it adds even more chaos to metadata given the myriad of ranked maps without such markers. Think about it, if someone maps a cut song that was previously ranked, there are now 2 versions but only one of them is marked as a cut so the person looking up the song will be mislead to believe that the one without the marker is the full version, which is exactly the problem this proposal was trying to solve. I'm repeating myself here but it also creates more confusion with official cuts since they will also look like full versions. I really fail to see how messing with the metadata rules on such a large scale again is a good idea when it doesn't even fix these issues.

Any new rules apply to all maps going forward but not previous ones. This is not something that can be fixed, and will cause some confusion, but that doesn't mean improvements are not worth implementing. If song authors choose not to tag short versions, that is their choice which will be matched in this case. Many tracks, especially other rhythm game tracks, are too messy for which version is "original" or "short" or "extended". This is a very complex issue which is why it's considered out of scope compared to "unofficial cuts will be marked as such". I do not think it's worthwhile to delay the simpler part of a quality of life change that players and mappers alike want in an attempt to cover every single exception to the point discussion has been stuttering for over a year. If other weird issues occur I would think they can be handled case-by-case or RC adjusted as needed. Clearly solutions to the other issues aren't coming, so let's stick with what we can address and can fix for now.

I've now added "songs that are shortened in ways that nearly match their original versions" and looping versions to the exeptions in the pull request. Insignificantly shortened is even more vague but basically says the same thing as the nearly matching part so it has been removed.

"What about cut versions of (extended ver.)s of songs that are different than the original shorter version"-> before this gets brought up again, this is part of why Cut Ver. would simply be added to the existing title instead of replacing current markers, which is different from how the other tags are handled. It'd look a bit dumb but would be the best way to handle such cases.

Handling metadata things like this on a case-by-case basis is a very bad approach though, every time there is such a case nobody knows what to do and the map just gets ranked with arbitrary metadata. There is literally no reason not to include the exceptions that were pointed out by various people. Cuts made for the sake of remixes and covers shouldn't use the marker if there is no full version of it. Also, how are double markers going to be handled? Is it (Sped Up Ver.) (Cut Ver.) or (Cut Ver.) (Sped Up Ver.)? I understand that extensions can be left out for now as they are very rare, but everything else is common and should be addressed.

As for adding (Cut Ver.) after other markers like Extended or Full Ver., it wouldn't only look a bit dumb, it's literally a contradiction. If it's a cut version it's not the full version and vice versa.

Anyway, I still don't get how it's an improvement to implement this. What exactly does it fix? Figuring out which version of a song it is based on the title alone is not possible in any case (even with this rule), especially when here the marker would even apply to completely different types of cuts although length markers are supposed to denote a specific version. Unless you can show that this would bring more clarity to metadata, I think it's best if people adapt to it and/or try to find a different solution.

pr looks good to me, it solves "Unofficial cuts/mixes of songs must be specified" just fine and I don't think it needs to be more complicated than that

there's plenty of fuckery that will always be had with these title-marker things, but "fixing" all of those problems is not the scope of this thread. in the future I'd rather just scrap these and give some dev love to more intuitive display of edit/remix/cover/extension/arrangement/whateverthefuckelse

^ this is merely for weird cuts and edits to alter the length of a song. Things like Remixes and covers were never problematic.


Not a fan of the proposal as well as some years ago things like Cut/Edit/Nightcore markers were perfectly fine until people chose it's not the correct way to use metadata. And reverting this in a state where inconsistency has a bigger impact than suddenly labeling maps with the correct marker I doubt the practical usage of this change.

I understand the metadata of 13 years cannot be adjusted to our rules today but I'd work on this issue to optimise the metadata of already ranked maps, and not apply major changes to a song title. Hell I recently nominated two maps that were cut and had no marker that indicates that. And a few months ago I got a DQ for using a short ver. marker. And I honestly don't believe this is a rule that will last for a long time.

Might just add a tagging system that clearly indicates the version type of a song (original, tv size, cover, remix, etc.) that is unrelated to the title. so at least it fixes the problem with older maps.

Stefan wrote:

Might just add a tagging system that clearly indicates the version type of a song (original, tv size, cover, remix, etc.) that is unrelated to the title. so at least it fixes the problem with older maps.

I think this is a good idea because it's a more organized and flexible solution and also allows for easier searching/filtering. This could be combined with community/forums/topics/1138937 (related to https://github.com/ppy/osu-web/issues/5852) in order to tackle both issues at once.

Stefan wrote:

Might just add a tagging system that clearly indicates the version type of a song (original, tv size, cover, remix, etc.) that is unrelated to the title. so at least it fixes the problem with older maps.

does this mean that the existing tv size tags and others will no longer see use? is there any probability of having it in-game (direct) in stable?

A better tagging system is also in mind for genres and other length markers, but likely will not happen in the near future, and certainly not on stable. For now, updated the PR so Cut Ver. would replace other length markers when relevant, and polished up wording a bit.

if you're interested in following along with new metadata/tagging/whatever systems: unfortunately discussion is kinda all over the place across osu-web, #modding, and other Discord channels, but the gist is in https://github.com/ppy/osu-web/issues/5852, and Ephemeral later restated there the basic idea for how new system might look https://github.com/ppy/osu-web/issues/5852#issuecomment-687696017. that GitHub thread was originally about genre and language but the proposed system fixes a crapload of issues including the ones in this thread

it won't be supported in stable like Noffy said but that's not holding anything back. the new stuff can work alongside old stuff for as long as it's necessary

this change looks good to me, I understand there are still some cases where you wouldn't be able to parse useful info out of title markers, but identifying unofficial cuts is the thing we're trying to address here and this does it without introducing other problems that don't already exist

clayton wrote:

pr looks good to me, it solves "Unofficial cuts/mixes of songs must be specified" just fine and I don't think it needs to be more complicated than that

It *is* more complicated than that and just because you choose to ignore other aspects doesn't change the fact that it opens a can of worms.

clayton wrote:

there's plenty of fuckery that will always be had with these title-marker things, but "fixing" all of those problems is not the scope of this thread. in the future I'd rather just scrap these and give some dev love to more intuitive display of edit/remix/cover/extension/arrangement/whateverthefuckelse

I literally explained why this doesn't solve the very scope of this thread, I don't know why you're saying that these problems are out of scope when they are exactly what this proposal tries to solve. Also if a different system is planned, that is even more of a reason to leave things the way they are and work on a much more efficient solution instead. We've already seen how much of a mess it was when people kept changing the TV Size rules several times. If you already know it's going to be replaced at some point, why even bother adding it in the first place.

Still relevant:

I wrote:

Cuts made for the sake of remixes and covers shouldn't use the marker if there is no full version of it. Also, how are double markers going to be handled? Is it (Sped Up Ver.) (Cut Ver.) or (Cut Ver.) (Sped Up Ver.)?

I wrote:

Figuring out which version of a song it is based on the title alone is not possible in any case (even with this rule), especially when here the marker would even apply to completely different types of cuts although length markers are supposed to denote a specific version. Unless you can show that this would bring more clarity to metadata, I think it's best if people adapt to it and/or try to find a different solution.

Also if a different system is planned, that is even more of a reason to leave things the way they are and work on a much more efficient solution instead.

why is both not an option lol. it's not like time spent thinking about RC is directly subtracted from time spent working on the other stuff. I can tell you that much cuz it's looking like I am gonna be the guy working on the other stuff ಠ_ಠ

for the "I wrote"s:

1. where are you getting the idea that this conflicts with remix/covers?
   for double markers, why does order matter?
2. brings more clarity for the stuff like in OP cuz u can tell that it's been cut from full version, this is why I said it feels like you're talking about something more complicated than how this actually is, all we wanna do is specify when things are cut

clayton wrote:

why is both not an option lol. it's not like time spent thinking about RC is directly subtracted from time spent working on the other stuff. I can tell you that much cuz it's looking like I am gonna be the guy working on the other stuff ಠ_ಠ

It's not about spending time, it's because it would make this change redundant and since you mentioned to scrap such markers once this system is implemented it would just increase the inconsistencies.

clayton wrote:

1. where are you getting the idea that this conflicts with remix/covers?
   for double markers, why does order matter?
2. brings more clarity for the stuff like in OP cuz u can tell that it's been cut from full version, this is why I said it feels like you're talking about something more complicated than how this actually is, all we wanna do is specify when things are cut

1. It conflicts because if someone cuts a song and then makes a cover/remix, they'd have to add this marker although a full version of said cover/remix doesn't exist. Look at community/forums/posts/7156425, this was part of the rule but then randomly removed.
The order for double markers matters for consistency across different maps. Also the marker rules contradict each other because they both say "add this at the end of the title" but technically only one can be at the end. There needs to be a clause regarding which one takes precedence.

2. It doesn't though, it's still the same as before:


There also seems to be a loophole regarding tracks which repeat themselves because lots of electronic music consists of the same verse, chorus, drop repeated twice so it would fall under the exceptions despite being a cut from a regular song and not the typical video game music or similar that was in mind with this exception.

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

It's not about spending time, it's because it would make this change redundant and since you mentioned to scrap such markers once this system is implemented it would just increase the inconsistencies.

a lot of these types of rules are going to be "redundant" or require reworks, doesn't mean it's not worth improving them for now. also when eventually we can scrap the markers and get a move on using more practical metadata tools there won't be any inconsistencies as we'll be fixing past ranked maps too

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

It conflicts because if someone cuts a song and then makes a cover/remix, they'd have to add this marker although a full version of said cover/remix doesn't exist.

what part of RC tells you to add "(Cut Ver.)" to a cover or remix? I'm not seeing it written or implied anywhere, and I'm assuming Noffy left out the explicit wording abt this cuz there's just no reason to say it. covers and remixes are the full length versions of themselves

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

The order for double markers matters for consistency across different maps. Also the marker rules contradict each other because they both say "add this at the end of the title" but technically only one can be at the end. There needs to be a clause regarding which one takes precedence.

okay my bad for wording but rather than "why does it matter" I should have asked "who cares". it doesn't take genius to understand that both wanting to be at the end means you'll have to put one before the other in some cases. you can add an additional rule like "if u need multiple title markers, put them in alphabetical order" if u rly care that much

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

[the image]

yeah cuz ur looking at past ranked maps that didn't follow these rules, see community/forums/posts/7668399

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

There also seems to be a loophole regarding tracks which repeat themselves because lots of electronic music consists of the same verse, chorus, drop repeated twice so it would fall under the exceptions despite being a cut from a regular song and not the typical video game music or similar that was in mind with this exception.

I'm not sure if ppl would consider those "looping tracks" to begin with but @ other ppl in this thread Should probably clarify if that wasnt the intention

this is merged now and rule is in effect, so archiving the thread now