3L - Macrophylla Parasol · forum

Ataraxia

Joined February 2014

Ataraxia 2017-11-25T17:22:04+00:00

If you want a re-chek (with a special live modding xD) just call me

In my stream, i listened carefully all hitsound about the map, and the reason of tick 4 is just for the best way to follow the music through hitsounds

tick rate 4 is like (all beats will have a sample, all beat will have a purpose)

its simple to understand(if i can, anyone can)

idk why people don't understand something that's so explicit.

--

boa sorte pimpg, sinceramente eu fico triste em ver voce passando por todo esse bocado desnecessario só porque algumas pessoas não querem procurar algo a fundo e só querem o obvio...

DJPop

osu! Alumni

3,549 posts

Here since the beginning

DJPop 2017-12-03T17:13:35+00:00

You don't need slider tick 4. If you want sound on non-tick position, use delayed hitsounds technique.

For example, a sound on 1/4 beat after a note, use wav file with 114ms delay added to the beginning. However, it will sounds off if player doesn't hit a note at the correct timing. You can instead put sound on the end of previous slider's end or repeater, add enough delay to make it sounds at the position you want. Ex 01:16:044 (4) - wav file will need 2/1 (909ms) delay. It will not sound off, but the file size will be bigger (up to the length of delay).

You can use Audacity to edit wav files. Add delay by go to Generate > Silence.

pimp

1,417 posts

Joined April 2010

Topic Starter

pimp 2017-12-03T20:20:50+00:00

@Net0 sure, i'll find you later for an irc mod.

@Veridian yeah, that was accurate xD. appreciate your support

@Ataraxia thank you ^^. btw i barely made changes since you modded last time so no need to recheck my map, but thanks.

@DJPop interesting, i'll consider this the 2nd option, thanks

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

since no one is paying attention to what i say, at least pay attention to what God-tier mappers and former MAT/BAT have to say
bolded the most relevant parts of the chat logs

DJPop

val0108

2017-11-20 00:19 pimpG: hi

2017-11-20 00:20 pimpG: will you have free time to tell me your opinion today?
2017-11-20 00:22 val0108: oh hi!!
2017-11-20 00:22 val0108: now okay
2017-11-20 00:23 pimpG: let's check a map quickly first. just for reference
2017-11-20 00:23 pimpG: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55769 Caramell - Ooa Hela Natten (Speedycake Remix) [Normal]]
2017-11-20 00:23 pimpG: normal diff
2017-11-20 00:24 val0108: dl
2017-11-20 00:24 val0108: wait~
2017-11-20 00:24 val0108: opinion? or mod
2017-11-20 00:24 pimpG: just opinion
2017-11-20 00:24 val0108: ok
2017-11-20 00:32 pimpG: what do you think about the custom slider tick hitsounds?
2017-11-20 00:33 val0108: soooooo big
2017-11-20 00:33 pimpG: do you think the slider tick hitsounds are not good?
2017-11-20 00:34 val0108: i guess 50% is best
2017-11-20 00:34 pimpG: i see
2017-11-20 00:34 pimpG: let's compare to my map now
2017-11-20 00:34 val0108: and
2017-11-20 00:34 pimpG: ?
2017-11-20 00:35 val0108: Please also add clap to notes
2017-11-20 00:35 pimpG: this map is not mine
2017-11-20 00:35 val0108: ho
2017-11-20 00:35 pimpG: it's just for reference
2017-11-20 00:35 pimpG: let's check my map now
2017-11-20 00:36 val0108: ok
2017-11-20 00:36 pimpG: it has similar slider tick usage
2017-11-20 00:36 pimpG: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1031280 3L - Macrophylla Parasol [Marathon]]
2017-11-20 00:37 pimpG: slider tick rate 2 works for the most parts that needed custom slider tick hitsounds
2017-11-20 00:37 pimpG: 01:30:022 (8) - but i have 11 sliders like this one, requiring slider tick rate 4
2017-11-20 00:38 val0108: 01:29:453 (7,8) -
2017-11-20 00:38 val0108: https://puu.sh/ypEMi/29e29bdd7d.png
2017-11-20 00:38 val0108: i think better
2017-11-20 00:39 pimpG: i don't want to remap any part of my beatmap : (
2017-11-20 00:39 pimpG: but do you think that the way i used slider tick hitsounds are okay?
2017-11-20 00:39 val0108: ;_;
2017-11-20 00:40 val0108: ok wait
2017-11-20 00:40 val0108: i use default skin
2017-11-20 00:40 pimpG: i use default skin too
2017-11-20 00:41 val0108: The volume is very good
2017-11-20 00:41 pimpG: i have 7 BN's against me using slider tick rate 4
2017-11-20 00:42 pimpG: they are suggesting me to replace them for storyboarded hitsounds
2017-11-20 00:42 pimpG: on the sliders that requires tick rate 4
2017-11-20 00:44 val0108: Osu of the present era does not recommend hit sound of slider tick
2017-11-20 00:44 pimpG: 01:17:294 (2) - 01:30:022 (8) - 01:39:113 (2) - 01:45:135 (3) - 01:48:772 (1) - 05:03:658 (3) - 05:10:931 (3) - 05:15:476 (5) - 05:23:658 (2) - 05:30:022 (5) - 05:49:794 (2) -
2017-11-20 00:44 val0108: So I think that it was recommended that the sound on SB be recommended
2017-11-20 00:45 pimpG: the ranking criteria says SB hitsounds should be avoided
2017-11-20 00:45 pimpG: this guideline never changed
2017-11-20 00:46 val0108: yeah ;_;
2017-11-20 00:46 pimpG: i'm just trying to avoid them using slider tick hitsounds, because slider tick hitsounds was never considered a problem
2017-11-20 00:46 val0108: yes
2017-11-20 00:47 val0108: I am sorry but I do not know much about the sound >_>
2017-11-20 00:47 val0108: The rank criteria of recent osu is getting strange
2017-11-20 00:47 val0108: so sad
2017-11-20 00:47 pimpG: but it did not changed about SB hitsounds and custom slider ticks
2017-11-20 00:48 pimpG: custom slider ticks are still rankeable
2017-11-20 00:48 val0108: yeah its rankable
2017-11-20 00:49 pimpG: that's why i'm getting opinions from experienced mappers like you
2017-11-20 00:50 pimpG: so what do you think about my custom slider tick hitsounds, do they look good to you?
2017-11-20 00:50 val0108: it's fine
2017-11-20 00:51 pimpG: thank you, appreciate your feedback

2017-11-20 00:51 val0108: yeah!!!

Saten

2017-11-16 18:24 pimpG: hello
2017-11-16 18:24 Saten: hi
2017-11-16 18:25 pimpG: i would like to get opinions from veteran mappers, on something
2017-11-16 18:25 pimpG: people who won't be biased and stuff
2017-11-16 18:25 pimpG: are you busy?
2017-11-16 18:26 Saten: yeah kinda
2017-11-16 18:26 pimpG: alright, i ask you another day then, np
2017-11-16 18:26 pimpG: have fun
2017-11-16 18:27 Saten: thanks, you too
2017-11-19 13:45 pimpG: hello
2017-11-19 13:45 Saten: hi
2017-11-19 13:45 pimpG: are you busy now?
2017-11-19 13:46 Saten: not busy atm
2017-11-19 13:46 pimpG: i would like to get opinions from experienced mappers on something very specific in my map
2017-11-19 13:47 pimpG: let's check another map quickly just for reference
2017-11-19 13:47 pimpG: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55769 Caramell - Ooa Hela Natten (Speedycake Remix) [Normal]]
2017-11-19 13:48 pimpG: normal diff
2017-11-19 13:49 pimpG: sorry, random connection issue
2017-11-19 13:50 pimpG: let's check another map quickly just for reference
2017-11-19 13:51 pimpG: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55769 Caramell - Ooa Hela Natten (Speedycake Remix) [Normal]]
2017-11-19 13:51 pimpG: normal diff
2017-11-19 13:51 Saten: o.o
2017-11-19 13:52 Saten: man that's quite an old map there
2017-11-19 13:52 pimpG: xD
2017-11-19 13:55 pimpG: i got disconnected again, did you said something
2017-11-19 13:56 Saten: rip
2017-11-19 13:56 pimpG: so what's your thoughts on the slider tick hitsounding?
2017-11-19 13:56 Saten: I don't mind such hitsounding, but the offset is kinda off in general
2017-11-19 13:57 Saten: I've done it myself
2017-11-19 13:57 pimpG: whoa
2017-11-19 13:57 pimpG: plese show me some exemples
2017-11-19 13:57 pimpG: i might need them
2017-11-19 13:59 Saten: sec
2017-11-19 13:59 Saten: can't remember which I used it in
2017-11-19 13:59 Saten: most likely in easier difficulies
2017-11-19 14:01 Saten: I used it slightly in this one
2017-11-19 14:01 Saten: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/201226 yozuca*, Rino, et al - Santa Claus ni Yoyaku Shite! [Santa-San]]
2017-11-19 14:02 pimpG: nice
2017-11-19 14:02 pimpG: i will check your other maps later too
2017-11-19 14:03 pimpG: now let's check my map
2017-11-19 14:03 pimpG: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1031280 3L - Macrophylla Parasol [Marathon]]
2017-11-19 14:04 Saten: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/235865 Ushirokara Haiyoritai G - Koi wa Chaos no Shimobenari (TV Size) [Saten's Easy]]
2017-11-19 14:04 Saten: this as well
2017-11-19 14:04 Saten: hm ok
2017-11-19 14:05 pimpG: most of the slider ticks are on 1/2, so slider tick rate 2 was good enough for them
2017-11-19 14:05 pimpG: 01:17:294 (2) - but there is 11 sliders like this one, that requires slider tick rate 4
2017-11-19 14:06 Saten: yeah since you started on a blue tick
2017-11-19 14:07 pimpG: so what do you think about it?
2017-11-19 14:08 Saten: I think it's necessary
2017-11-19 14:08 Saten: I mean 01:45:135 (3) -
2017-11-19 14:08 Saten: wouldn't work with 2
2017-11-19 14:08 pimpG: yup
2017-11-19 14:08 pimpG: i have 7 nominators against me using tick rate 4
2017-11-19 14:09 Saten: tbh it's the map creator that should decide that
2017-11-19 14:09 pimpG: yeah, they suggest me to use storyboarded hitsounds instead
2017-11-19 14:09 Saten: but it would be a different story if it was 200+bpm with tickrate 4
2017-11-19 14:09 Saten: oh god no
2017-11-19 14:10 pimpG: the ranking criteria is on my side, but they are ignoring all what i say
2017-11-19 14:10 Saten: you can't disable storyboard sounds
2017-11-19 14:10 pimpG: yeah
2017-11-19 14:10 Saten: afaik
2017-11-19 14:10 Saten: even if you miss they will play
2017-11-19 14:10 pimpG: the taiko convert players would be disgusted
2017-11-19 14:10 Saten: which makes it even more awkward
2017-11-19 14:10 Saten: yup
2017-11-19 14:10 pimpG: i'm glad you agree with me
2017-11-19 14:11 pimpG: are you okay with me posting this chat log in the thread later?
2017-11-19 14:11 pimpG: among other experienced mapper's chat logs about the same thing
2017-11-19 14:11 Saten: sure
2017-11-19 14:11 pimpG: thank you, your feedback will surely make a difference
2017-11-19 14:11 Saten: btw did you ask any QATs too?
2017-11-19 14:12 pimpG: okorin
2017-11-19 14:12 pimpG: and he disagree with me
2017-11-19 14:12 pimpG: the other qat's barely get online, and they never reply
2017-11-19 14:12 Saten: imma slap him
2017-11-19 14:12 pimpG: lol
2017-11-19 14:12 pimpG: he deserves that for sure
2017-11-19 14:13 pimpG: thank you for offering me your opinion, have a wonderful day
2017-11-19 14:14 Saten: my pleasure

Blue Dragon a.k.a Mismagius

21:18 pimpG: oi
21:22 Mismagius: oi
21:22 pimpG: eu preciso de opiniões de mappers experientes
21:22 Mismagius: noq
21:23 pimpG: que pensam por conta propria e tals
21:23 pimpG: vc ta ocupado?
21:23 Mismagius: nao
21:23 Mismagius: mas n tenho mt como articular opiniao pq eu to mt w/e pra mapping ultimamente
21:24 Mismagius: so falar
21:24 pimpG: precisa ser em ingles ok?
21:24 pimpG: tipo, gostaria de usar o log pra postar, se vc deixar
21:25 Mismagius: ok
21:25 Mismagius: np
21:25 pimpG: okay let's check a map first
21:25 *pimpG is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55769 Caramell - Ooa Hela Natten (Speedycake Remix) [Normal]]
21:26 pimpG: what do you think about those slider tick hitsounds
21:26 *Mismagius is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55769 Caramell - Ooa Hela Natten (Speedycake Remix) [Normal]]
21:26 Mismagius: good when used right and only in lower difficulties imo
21:27 pimpG: right
21:27 Mismagius: it must be consistent rhythm and shouldnt really put the player off
21:27 pimpG: i used a similar idea on my insane
21:27 Mismagius: 01:21:331 (1,2,3) - e.g. rhythm gets a bit confusing here because of it
21:27 *pimpG is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1031280 3L - Macrophylla Parasol [Marathon]]
21:28 pimpG: i'm getting a lot of hate for those slider tick sounds i'm using
21:28 *Mismagius is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1031280 3L - Macrophylla Parasol [Marathon]]
21:29 pimpG: my rhythms are not simplified, i just mapped to the vocals mostly
21:29 pimpG: and have custom hitsounds to keep consistency
21:30 Mismagius: seems alright since the rhythm you're using with the slidertick-based hitsounds works as a secondary rhythm which is completely constant and foreseeable by the player. maybe it's not as comfortable but that's why it works as a gimmick
21:31 pimpG: if i mapped all of the sounds as clickable notes, my map would be no different from those generic stuff from nowadays
21:31 pimpG: yup
21:31 Mismagius: yep, the gimmick in the map is that your rhythm isn't a constant 1/2 based on strong notes
21:31 pimpG: now something more specific
21:31 Mismagius: works well enough
21:31 Mismagius: as long as you don't use SB'd hitsounds it should be fine
21:32 pimpG: that's what i'm being suggested, actually
21:32 pimpG: because
21:32 pimpG: 01:17:294 (2) -
21:32 pimpG: people are against me using slider tick rate 4
21:32 pimpG: i need slide tick rate 4 for notes like this one
21:33 Mismagius: tick rate doesn't even make a difference in the map lol, why be against it if it's basically worthless and only affects gameplay in a way where it forces people to be more consistent when aiming a slider..
21:33 Mismagius: it's just forcing the map to be "consistent" with the ones in the ranked section and killing variation this way
21:34 pimpG: so you agree with me that tick rate 4 is okay if i simply need it, right?
21:34 pimpG: they are silenced in the parts that they are not necessary
21:35 pimpG: there is 11 sliders that needs tick rate 4
21:35 pimpG: they want me to use tick rate 2 and use storyboarded sounds for those that needs tick rate 4
21:36 Mismagius: dude everything is okay as long as it's rankable lol map quality is subjective especially talking about gimmicky mapping styles like this one
21:36 Mismagius: as long as you have an argument to keep them then there's no issue
21:36 Mismagius: there's no thing as "this map would be objectively better without tick 4"
21:36 Mismagius: and any BN who says otherwise might just be too far up their own ass
21:36 pimpG: i have like 10 nominators againt me
21:37 pimpG: i feel like if i get a bubble they will want to veto
21:37 Mismagius: ye ppl like (name removed from chat log) and (name removed from chat log) who do everything to keep mapping meta the way they want it to be
21:37 Mismagius: not really interested in their opinion tbh
21:37 pimpG: but i want my stuff ranked T.T
21:37 pimpG: so i'm collecting experienced mapper's opinions
21:38 Mismagius: might be easier to get your map loved atm since ppl are gatekeeping ranked section like that xd
21:38 Mismagius: but well, i cant say much in the matter aside from the fact i dont see anything wrong with the map
21:38 pimpG: thanks, i'm glad you agree with me
21:39 pimpG: slider tick rate is nothing but a setting to be adjusted to fit the mapper's needs
21:39 pimpG: k this should be enough, hope you have a nice week
21:39 Mismagius: well, gl wit hthat
21:39 Mismagius: npnp
21:40 pimpG: oh

-kevincela-

2017-11-20 19:06 pimpG: hello
2017-11-20 19:08 pimpG: i'm looking for opinions from experienced mappers (who think for themselves rather than being biased by other's opinions) on something very specific in my map
2017-11-20 19:08 pimpG: are you busy?
2017-11-20 19:12 -kevincela-: unfortunately i have stuff to do now, i think i'll be free tomorrow or the day after tomorrow
2017-11-20 19:12 pimpG: alright, thank you
2017-11-23 17:26 pimpG: hi
2017-11-23 17:26 -kevincela-: oh hey, i remember you were asking me about that opinion
2017-11-23 17:26 pimpG: are you busy today?
2017-11-23 17:27 -kevincela-: i can give a quick look after i'm done mapping this bit :p
2017-11-23 17:27 pimpG: btw sorry about your friend, but he asked for it
2017-11-23 17:27 pimpG: (link was removed from the chat log)
2017-11-23 17:28 pimpG: sure, i'm free for a few hours
2017-11-23 17:28 -kevincela-: hmm?
2017-11-23 17:28 -kevincela-: i don't know this guy lol
2017-11-23 17:29 pimpG: this line he sent me is the same i sent you like 5 minutes before his random pm
2017-11-23 17:29 -kevincela-: oh
2017-11-23 17:29 pimpG: but alright
2017-11-23 17:30 -kevincela-: no idea how he did that, but i closed osu soon after talking with you
2017-11-23 17:31 pimpG: maybe he found a way to stalk your logs xD
2017-11-23 17:35 -kevincela-: ok i'm done
2017-11-23 17:35 -kevincela-: what did you want me to look into?
2017-11-23 17:36 pimpG: lets quickly check another map just for reference
2017-11-23 17:36 pimpG: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/53573 Caramell - Ooa Hela Natten (Speedycake Remix) [Hard]]
2017-11-23 17:36 pimpG: ops
2017-11-23 17:36 pimpG: normal diff
2017-11-23 17:37 pimpG: what do you think about the custom slider tick hitsounding?
2017-11-23 17:37 -kevincela-: oki
2017-11-23 17:38 -kevincela-: it's okay
2017-11-23 17:38 -kevincela-: i also do that some times
2017-11-23 17:38 pimpG: cool
2017-11-23 17:38 pimpG: my map has similar usage, i think
2017-11-23 17:38 pimpG: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1031280 3L - Macrophylla Parasol [Marathon]]
2017-11-23 17:40 pimpG: slider tick rate 2 worked for the most part of my map
2017-11-23 17:40 pimpG: 01:17:294 (2) - but there is 11 sliders like this one requiring slider tick rate 4 to have enough ticks
2017-11-23 17:41 -kevincela-: hmm
2017-11-23 17:42 pimpG: the slider ticks are silenced where i don't need them, and this is rankeable
2017-11-23 17:42 -kevincela-: i don't think it's an issue personally
2017-11-23 17:43 pimpG: there is 7 BN's against me using tick rate 4
2017-11-23 17:43 pimpG: they want me to use SB'ed hitsounds instead
2017-11-23 17:43 pimpG: but i hate this idea
2017-11-23 17:44 -kevincela-: tbh i don't see much wrong with it
2017-11-23 17:44 pimpG: yeah
2017-11-23 17:44 -kevincela-: it looks strange, but that's it
2017-11-23 17:44 pimpG: most veteran mappers are fine with it
2017-11-23 17:44 -kevincela-: slider ticks can be silenced without any problems, unlike actual beats
2017-11-23 17:45 -kevincela-: they don't have to necessarily represent a beat in the same way a note does imo
2017-11-23 17:45 pimpG: exactly
2017-11-23 17:45 pimpG: i'm going to post this chat log in the thread eventually, among other veteran mappers opinions
2017-11-23 17:46 -kevincela-: yeah, sure
2017-11-23 17:46 pimpG: is this ok?
2017-11-23 17:46 -kevincela-: np
2017-11-23 17:46 pimpG: nice, thank you

2017-11-23 17:46 -kevincela-: i don't really get this concept that every slider tick has to match the song lol
2017-11-23 17:47 pimpG: they just complain because it's unusual, the new mappers don't know how to deal with unusual ideas
2017-11-23 17:48 pimpG: especially when it's about hitsounding, that most mappers really don't care
2017-11-23 17:49 -kevincela-: tbh the maps that make good use of EVERY tick regarding hitsounding are very few
2017-11-23 17:49 -kevincela-: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/83473 Hanazawa Kana - Ashita Kuru Hi [Hard]]
2017-11-23 17:50 -kevincela-: this is the only one i remember very well for example lol
2017-11-23 17:50 pimpG: do you have any map doing the same thing i did with tick 4?
2017-11-23 17:50 -kevincela-: hmm, i don't really know
2017-11-23 17:50 pimpG: so far i only have that james map to show as exemple
2017-11-23 17:53 pimpG: oh, he changed the bpm to make bette use of the slider ticks?
2017-11-23 17:53 pimpG: better
2017-11-23 17:53 -kevincela-: yeah
2017-11-23 17:54 -kevincela-: and that's also the reason why the map couldn't be ranked back then
2017-11-23 17:54 pimpG: it's not his fault that the tick rate can't be changed : /
2017-11-23 17:54 pimpG: same for me
2017-11-23 17:54 -kevincela-: yep
2017-11-23 17:55 pimpG: it actually made it to ranked section
2017-11-23 17:56 pimpG: literaly heart breaking
2017-11-23 17:56 -kevincela-: yeah
2017-11-23 17:56 -kevincela-:

Andrea and Garven

2017-11-30 17:39 pimpG: hi andrea
2017-11-30 17:39 pimpG: can i get your opinion (just opinion, not like a mod) on something very specific in my beatmap?
2017-11-30 17:46 Andrea: well, I gotta logoff for now
2017-11-30 17:46 Andrea: remind me when I'm back owo
2017-12-01 19:37 pimpG: *(reminder sound)
2017-12-01 19:39 Andrea: owo
2017-12-01 19:39 Andrea: what I had to gd
2017-12-01 19:39 Andrea: I was sooo away xd
2017-12-01 19:39 pimpG: xD
2017-12-01 19:39 pimpG: i asked for your opinion on something very specific in my current map for ranking
2017-12-01 19:40 pimpG: shouldn't take too much for you to decide about it, i think
2017-12-01 19:40 pimpG: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1031280 3L - Macrophylla Parasol [Marathon]]
2017-12-01 19:41 pimpG: it's about the slider tick rate
2017-12-01 19:45 pimpG: i'm using custom slider tick sounds, and slider tick rate 2 was enough for the most part of my map
2017-12-01 19:46 pimpG: 01:17:294 (2) - but there is 11 like this one, requiring me to use str4 to custom hitsound
2017-12-01 19:46 pimpG: 11 sliders*
2017-12-01 20:20 Andrea: let me see
2017-12-01 20:21 Andrea: the tick rate seems okay to me actually
2017-12-01 20:21 Andrea: it's rare nowadays to see maps with short sliders using ticks
2017-12-01 20:21 Andrea: I find it pretty cool tbh
2017-12-01 20:22 Andrea: Garven would approve too :^)
2017-12-01 20:22 pimpG: i have like 7 BN's against me using tick rate 4
2017-12-01 20:22 pimpG: they want me to use SB'ed hitsounds to replace the 4's
2017-12-01 20:23 pimpG: even after i explained the bad side effects sb'ed sounds have : /
2017-12-01 20:24 pimpG: that's why i'm collecting veteran's opinions, to show them they don't speak for everyone/they are just kinda unexperienced
2017-12-01 20:24 pimpG: too bad you and garven are not nominators : /
2017-12-01 20:25 pimpG: i hope the opinions will open their eyes a bit
2017-12-01 20:28 pimpG: do you give me permission to post this chat log among other veteran mappers/modder's opinions?
2017-12-01 20:28 pimpG: in the thread
2017-12-01 21:14 Andrea: sorry I had to afk
2017-12-01 21:14 Andrea: of course you can
2017-12-01 21:14 Andrea: and yeah sb hitsounds are no good
2017-12-01 21:15 pimpG: it's ok. thank you : )
2017-12-01 21:18 Andrea: no problem

Chewin

2017-11-11 16:52 Chewin: tell me about your question
2017-11-11 16:52 pimpG: you modded my map but you didn't seem bothered by the slider tick rate 4
2017-11-11 16:53 Chewin: mh I didn't have any trouble about it probably o:

Stefan

2017-11-15 19:01 pimpG: hello
2017-11-15 19:05 pimpG: i would like to get opinions from experienced mappers
2017-11-15 19:06 pimpG: those who can think for themselves and are not going to be biased
2017-11-15 19:06 pimpG: are you busy?
2017-11-15 19:07 Stefan: Uh
2017-11-15 19:07 Stefan: Well, it'd be better if you ask me tomorrow
2017-11-15 19:07 Stefan: because I am extremly tired right now
2017-11-15 19:07 pimpG: sure, thank you
2017-11-15 19:08 Stefan: Btw, standard or taiko?
2017-11-15 19:08 pimpG: std
2017-11-15 19:23 Stefan: okay.
2017-11-15 19:23 Stefan: Gonna see for that later but I am going to bed now
2017-11-15 19:23 Stefan: gnight~
2017-11-16 17:30 pimpG: sup
2017-11-16 17:31 Stefan: hey hey
2017-11-16 17:32 pimpG: you used to be a bat, right?
2017-11-16 17:32 Stefan: Uh, well
2017-11-16 17:32 Stefan: I am a Beatmap Nominator atm so it's the same
2017-11-16 17:33 pimpG: but it was way more difficult to join bat
2017-11-16 17:34 pimpG: whatever, i trust on your skills more than the other nominators since you are a veteran
2017-11-16 17:34 pimpG: can we check something?
2017-11-16 17:35 Stefan: Uh sure.
2017-11-16 17:35 pimpG: lets see
2017-11-16 17:36 Stefan: gimme map
2017-11-16 17:36 pimpG: lets check a map 1st
2017-11-16 17:36 pimpG: not mine
2017-11-16 17:36 pimpG: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55769 Caramell - Ooa Hela Natten (Speedycake Remix) [Normal]]
2017-11-16 17:38 pimpG: 00:31:808 (1) -
2017-11-16 17:38 pimpG: what do you think about this hitsounding?
2017-11-16 17:39 pimpG: normal*
2017-11-16 17:40 Stefan: You mean the slider ticks?
2017-11-16 17:40 pimpG: yup
2017-11-16 17:40 Stefan: Well, it's a smart way to have them included despite of the difficulty level
2017-11-16 17:40 Stefan: but idk if that is acceptable in 2017, hafta check the RC for that.
2017-11-16 17:40 pimpG: i have an insane with similar concept
2017-11-16 17:41 Stefan: Hmm, then gimme a minute
2017-11-16 17:43 Stefan: Only thing that is important to consider is the following:
2017-11-16 17:43 Stefan: "Finally, you cannot silence both slider ticks and slider slides together."
2017-11-16 17:43 Stefan: This would apply for example at the beatmap you have sent.
2017-11-16 17:43 pimpG: yup, rankeability is not a problem
2017-11-16 17:44 pimpG: now my map
2017-11-16 17:44 Stefan: But except of that the idea can be used without problems.
2017-11-16 17:44 pimpG: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1031280 3L - Macrophylla Parasol [Marathon]]
2017-11-16 17:47 pimpG: 01:30:022 (8) - i have 11 sliders that requires slider tick rate 4
2017-11-16 17:47 pimpG: for hitsounding purposes
2017-11-16 17:48 pimpG: the slider ticks are silenced where i don't need them
2017-11-16 17:48 pimpG: but not the sliderslide, as you said
2017-11-16 17:49 Stefan: Well, the slider tick rate doesn't really matter much. It's rather a question of creativity for what you need it.
2017-11-16 17:50 pimpG: i have like 10 std nominators against me using tick rate 4
2017-11-16 17:50 Stefan: Objectively said, there is nothing wrong to use TR4 here
2017-11-16 17:50 Stefan: Oh
2017-11-16 17:50 pimpG: they want me to use storyboarded sounds instead ._.
2017-11-16 17:51 pimpG: kids nowadays...
2017-11-16 17:52 pimpG: so far no one of the veterans i asked for opinions disagree with me using tick rate 4
2017-11-16 17:55 pimpG: can i post this log on the thread once i get a lot of opinions?
2017-11-16 17:58 Stefan: Well, I have read the complete thread rn - just to understand the whole problem.
2017-11-16 17:58 pimpG: yeah, i'm the most arrogant and stubborn mapper, apparently
2017-11-16 17:59 Stefan: So from what I see people have a problem that TR4 is used because 11 sliders require it to work with the current setup.
2017-11-16 17:59 Stefan: And they recommed to use storyboarded hitsounds to get the same effect.
2017-11-16 18:00 pimpG: i explained the bad side effects that sb'ed sounds have
2017-11-16 18:00 pimpG: and much more
2017-11-16 18:00 Stefan: I haven't seen a proper reason why TR4 is bad per se.
2017-11-16 18:00 Stefan: Except "it doesn't fit".
2017-11-16 18:00 pimpG: to me it seems like they are all biased, just because me and okorin had a disagreement
2017-11-16 18:00 Stefan: Which is.. uh..
2017-11-16 18:02 Stefan: I mean, honestly I can imagine to use storyboarded hitsounds as alternative.
2017-11-16 18:02 Stefan: It's one way but I'd like to hear what's so bad about TR4 for your beatmap.
2017-11-16 18:02 pimpG: but silencing the slider tick is rankeable
2017-11-16 18:03 Stefan: It is.
2017-11-16 18:03 pimpG: so how often it's fitting does not matters
2017-11-16 18:03 pimpG: i need it i use it, that's it
2017-11-16 18:03 Stefan: Using TR4 is inconvenient but that's it.
2017-11-16 18:04 pimpG: as a taiko player
2017-11-16 18:04 Stefan: The map isn't even hard as it would result to many slider breaks
2017-11-16 18:04 pimpG: would you like to hear random hitsounds that are not part of taiko default sounds when you play my map in taiko?
2017-11-16 18:05 Stefan: Well, that are my thoughts why storyboarded hitsounds are partly an acceptable idea.
2017-11-16 18:05 pimpG: sb'ed hitsounds are treated like a "last option" in the ranking criteria
2017-11-16 18:06 Stefan: I believe it'd also make a difference if you prefer to play with your own hitsounds and then suddenly here the storyboarded one.
2017-11-16 18:06 pimpG: yeah, players with custom skins will hear them even on standard
2017-11-16 18:06 pimpG: i write that on the thread too
2017-11-16 18:07 pimpG: custom skin hitsounds*
2017-11-16 18:08 pimpG: "ignore beatmap's hitsounds" won't work. "disable storyboard" won't disable the sb'ed sounds
2017-11-16 18:14 Stefan: I posted in the thread.
2017-11-16 18:15 pimpG: oh thank you
2017-11-16 18:15 pimpG: this is better than posting the log but i didn't expect anyone to want to get involved
2017-11-16 18:16 Stefan: Well
2017-11-16 18:16 Stefan: All I want is a good reason why TR4 is bad
2017-11-16 18:16 Stefan: And nobody gave one so far.
2017-11-16 18:17 Stefan: I don't give a shit when people say it doesn't make sense or fit. lol
2017-11-16 18:17 pimpG: i considered everything, actually.
2017-11-16 18:17 Stefan: Fair enough.
2017-11-16 18:17 pimpG: it raises the combo from 1400 to 1800
2017-11-16 18:17 Stefan: However, you cannot really consider other modes (example with Taiko) since the map is designed for Standard, not for Taiko.
2017-11-16 18:18 Stefan: It's just an annotation you can mention.
2017-11-16 18:18 Stefan: But that's it.
2017-11-16 18:18 pimpG: yeah i expected that treadment for that annotation
2017-11-16 18:18 pimpG: but it's real and can be avoided
2017-11-16 18:18 pimpG: the way i did
2017-11-16 18:20 pimpG: do you have anyone to recomend me to get opinions?
2017-11-16 18:22 pimpG: for now i asked chewin, blue dragon, gabe, you, planning to ask val0108, djpop, toy, hollow wings, saten and whoever shows up randomly
2017-11-16 18:22 Stefan: Uh, not really.
2017-11-16 18:23 pimpG: i see
2017-11-16 18:23 pimpG: but i'm very thankful for your support anyway
2017-11-16 18:25 Stefan: np!

Gabe

18:14 pimpG: hello
18:15 Gabe: hiii
18:15 pimpG: i would like to get opinions from experienced mappers
18:15 pimpG: from those who can think for themselves and not going to be biased
18:16 pimpG: are you busy?
18:16 Gabe: can do my best
18:17 pimpG: i will just show you my map and show the specific parts
18:18 Gabe: yeah sure
18:18 *pimpG is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1031280 3L - Macrophylla Parasol [Marathon]]
18:20 pimpG: i honestly think that i have more interesting gameplay the way it is, rather than remapping slider ticks as clickable notes
18:20 pimpG: as my mapping is for the most part, vocal
18:20 Gabe: okay yeah
18:20 Gabe: lemme check
18:22 pimpG: in my opinion, slider ticks work the same way as repeats and slider ends
18:22 pimpG: so it's okay to have sounds like that on them
18:23 pimpG: because repeats and slider ends get the same treatment as circles and slider starts on hitsounding
18:23 Gabe: there's no issue on my end
18:23 Gabe: as you said, you're following the vocals with your objects
18:23 pimpG: now something more specific
18:23 pimpG: yup
18:23 Gabe: and hitsounds in this case is like a plus
18:24 pimpG: yes!
18:24 pimpG: 01:17:294 (2) - what about this?
18:24 pimpG: hitsound on 1/4
18:24 Gabe: its okay
18:24 Gabe: hitsound consistency while following another sound
18:24 pimpG: nice, then the next point
18:25 pimpG: people are saying
18:25 pimpG: that i should not use slider tick rate 4 because i don't need it very often
18:25 pimpG: they say that i should use tick rate 2 and use storyboarded sounds for those parts that i need faster slider ticks
18:26 pimpG: i told them that storyboarded hitsounds are not a better option than slider tick rate 4, because it has too many bad side effects that slider ticks don't
18:26 pimpG: you probably know them already
18:27 pimpG: the bad side effects
18:27 Gabe: yeah, I do
18:27 Gabe: it's not even recommended to use storyboarded hitsounds ANYWAYS
18:28 pimpG: yup
18:28 pimpG: especially inside hitobjects
18:28 pimpG: so do you think it's fair to use tick 4 for hitsounding?
18:29 pimpG: i have muted slider ticks where i don't need them
18:29 pimpG: just like the map i showed earlier
18:29 Gabe: yes, since your 1/2 sliders will have hitsounds with tick 4
18:30 pimpG: nice
18:30 pimpG: can i use this log if i need it later?
18:30 Gabe: i guess

bossandy

2017-11-18 13:25 pimpG: hello
2017-11-18 13:26 bossandy: yoyo
2017-11-18 13:26 pimpG: i'm looking for opinions from experienced mappers
2017-11-18 13:26 pimpG: those who can think for themselves and are not going to be biased
2017-11-18 13:26 pimpG: are you busy?
2017-11-18 13:27 bossandy: I think It's okay to take a look xD
2017-11-18 13:27 pimpG: i'll show you another map 1st just for reference
2017-11-18 13:27 pimpG: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55769 Caramell - Ooa Hela Natten (Speedycake Remix) [Normal]]
2017-11-18 13:28 pimpG: normal diff
2017-11-18 13:28 bossandy: Wait a second
2017-11-18 13:29 bossandy: oh!
2017-11-18 13:29 bossandy: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/9568602
2017-11-18 13:29 bossandy: I have played this song when I was a junior high xD
2017-11-18 13:30 pimpG: everybody should play james maps xD
2017-11-18 13:30 pimpG: what do you think about the custom slider tick hitsounding?
2017-11-18 13:31 bossandy: He is a great mapper
2017-11-18 13:32 pimpG: indeed, his legacy is barely matched by other mappers from the same era
2017-11-18 13:33 bossandy: I thinks it's fine , but do not use too many custom slider ticks
2017-11-18 13:34 pimpG: okay let's compare with my map, it has similar idea
2017-11-18 13:34 pimpG: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1031280 3L - Macrophylla Parasol [Marathon]]
2017-11-18 13:34 bossandy: It's a bit wired now recently because of its slider tick rate xD
2017-11-18 13:35 pimpG: wired?
2017-11-18 13:35 bossandy: too much stick xD
2017-11-18 13:36 bossandy: I think Slider Tick Rate 2 is the best imo
2017-11-18 13:36 pimpG: 01:17:294 (2) - but i have 11 sliders that requires slider tick rate 4
2017-11-18 13:36 pimpG: like this one
2017-11-18 13:37 pimpG: the slider ticks that i don't need, are using a silenced hitsound file
2017-11-18 13:37 pimpG: everything i did in this mapset is rankeable
2017-11-18 13:37 bossandy: I know what you mean
2017-11-18 13:38 pimpG: what do you think?
2017-11-18 13:38 bossandy: It is all rankeabke imo , It's all fine for me tho , but I am not a formal MAT or BAT now
2017-11-18 13:38 bossandy: haha
2017-11-18 13:39 pimpG: i know, but i have 7 nominators against me using slider tick rate 4
2017-11-18 13:39 bossandy: If I am a MAT or BAT , I will bubble or rank this map :3
2017-11-18 13:39 pimpG: so i want to show them that veteran mappers have no problem with them
2017-11-18 13:39 bossandy: Their reason is ?
2017-11-18 13:39 pimpG: "it's not fitting"
2017-11-18 13:39 pimpG: but i muted the ticks where i don't need them
2017-11-18 13:40 pimpG: "just because it's rankeble doesn't means it's good"
2017-11-18 13:40 pimpG: that's all they say
2017-11-18 13:40 bossandy: Yeah , That's why you muted the tick and it's fine for me
2017-11-18 13:41 pimpG: yup
2017-11-18 13:41 pimpG: are you fine with me posting this chat log in the thread later?
2017-11-18 13:41 bossandy: why is it not good ? Rate 4 for a
2017-11-18 13:41 bossandy: rate 4 for a better hitsounding
2017-11-18 13:41 bossandy: It's all good for me
2017-11-18 13:41 pimpG: i think they are just scared because nobody uses slider tick rate 4 noawdays
2017-11-18 13:41 bossandy: Yeah
2017-11-18 13:42 pimpG: thank you, your opinion means a lot to me, i hope it helps me get this map qualified
2017-11-18 13:43 bossandy: You right haha
2017-11-18 13:43 bossandy: I hope so!
2017-11-18 13:44 bossandy: Good luck on the ranking road hehe

spboxer3

2017-11-18 10:51 pimpG: so you disagree with me using tick rate 4?
2017-11-18 10:51 pimpG: does it makes my map be bad as the nominators are saying?
2017-11-18 10:53 spboxer3: umm... sorry about that but yes, but if I'm BN I will make this pass, cuz It's really not a big problem to melol
2017-11-18 10:53 spboxer3: The sb sound is good sol to me too
2017-11-18 10:55 pimpG: i wrote why i don't like to use sb'ed sounds here p/6349361
2017-11-18 10:55 pimpG: but it's ok if you disagree, thank you for giving me your opinion, and i hope you decide to a become BN xD

for those who don't know, MAT was the equivalent to the tier 1 BN (could only bubble maps, not rank them, they all had different tone of pink color name)
BAT was the equivalent to the tier 2 BN (could do what the MAT's did, and also rank maps, they all had different tone of red color name)

and at some point the status of a BAT was basically the same as a QAT+GMT, basically admins that also handle beatmap rank process

the standards for joining MAT and BAT were much higher than what it is nowadays to join the BN. so it's safe to assume that if the veterans were still around handling beatmap ranking process, many of the current members of the BN would not even be accepted as BN...

the only ones that never been part of the MAT or BAT are Saten and val0108, but they are both god tier mappers, they just were not interested in handling beatmap ranking process.

spboxer3 still prefer SB'ed sounds but my map is still worth a bubble for him. everyone else seems to be totally okay with tick rate 4
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Until this day, slider tick rate has been used in different ways depending on the map/mapper's needs. for exemple, mappers often use them to make slider changes more noticeable, especially when they try to make a slider with higher length to have similar size as a shorter length slider, similar to new combo for SV changes.
There is also some mappers who simply don't like slider ticks, so in the past, when it was available, they ranked their maps with slider tick rate 0.5 making slider ticks appear only after two beats instead of every 1/1 beat with str1.

i wish i could find more beatmaps using str above 2 and custom slider ticks but unfortunately they are very difficult find because tick rate is not a setting that can be searched like "od=9" "ar=10" (but that also shows how "irrelevant" this setting is, changing the AR OD CS HP by 1 have much more significant impact on gameplay than changing the slider tick rate)

so let's just imagine a map that has 1/3 rhythm, the "correct" slider tick rate would be 3, right?
WRONG .... most of the 1/3 songs don't have that many sounds landing on 1/3 ticks, usually only 40%~70% of the song supports str3 but no one complains about str3 if the mapper decides to use str3. music using 1/3 rhythm are minority, so if they can't use str3 on songs using 1/3 rhythm then where are they going to use? meanwhile, music with 1/4 rhythm are majority, but people usually go for 1/1 because they don't like slider ticks, or because they don't want slider ticks for the parts without 1/4 sounds (even knowing that silencing slider ticks are rankeable, they might just not want to have to mess with green lines), or they simply would want to map the parts where the slider ticks could be used.

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/14624 that James map i showed to everyone is a good exemple. str3 was used only in normal, because he needed it there, and decided to mess with green lines to silence the parts that he didn't want to hear the ticks. James did not used str3 on the harder difficulty, even knowing that it was very fitting, the sounds he thought that are important were mapped normally, and instead, he used slider tick rate 0,5?
He simply don't like slider ticks, only used for normal because it was necessary and he knew that slider tick rate is to be used according to his own needs.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/81060 why didn't DJPop used slider tick rate 3 on his normal? if slider tick rate is something that's supposed to be fitting the song then he might have made a mistake on his normal or on the harder diffs? and what about the max combo? normal have much smaller max combo than the higher diffs, max combo is an issue, right? NO... if he decided that str1 is more fitting for his normal then taking the combo in consideration would be stupid.
btw i have nothing but respect for DJPop and Winter Bells is my favorite Christmas map of all times, and one of my favorites maps in general, but to be honest, when i think about it, str3 doesn't really sounds that great for the most part of the song, he and CDFA needed str3 for their custom hitsounds on "Hard" and "CDFA's difficulty" but the insane doesn't have the same spots with custom slider ticks, he could have used slider tick rate 1 if he wanted, but he didn't so it's fine.

Slider tick rate 0,5 was removed from the editor ages ago, now it can only be activated editing the .osu file, so using str0,5 is discouraged (or unrankeable?) but slider tick rate 4 and 3 are still usable in the editor, that means higher tick rate is not discouraged.

slider tick rate can not be changed, we can only use one slider tick rate per difficulty, and it's not like it was not a feature that was requested before t/47451&start=0
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=4694&hilit=slider+tick+rate
it's been 9 years....if the Developers wanted to add this feature then it would be added already. why do you think that silencing slider ticks is rankeable?

conclusion: slider tick rate can be whatever the map/mapper needs/wants as long as it makes at least one little bit of sense.

i'm not using slider tick rate 4 because i think it's superior to the other tick rates, it's just because it's necessary.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

a lot of people were trying to convince me that sb'ed sounds are superior to slider tick hitsouds, and some people even mock me for relying so much on the ranking criteria. if the ranking criteria is not important, then why is the staff wasting their time improving it constantly?

yes, i know it's relatively easy to make a rankeable mapset, the ranking criteria is actually very easy to be followed. but why the staff keep it so easy to be followed? because it's to force mappers to keep using the "fundamentals" while not limiting their creativity.
limiting creativity is exactly what's happening here.

by "creativity" i don't mean that what i'm doing is innovative, james and djpop already did that before me, and probably a lot more people did that too, but this is still something that is at least very unusual for nowadays, that is clearly rankeable, and i did it very well. but instead of being praised for making good use of an unusual mapping technique, i'm only getting negative comments and being suggested to only do "more of the same".

Last edited by pimp 2017-12-04T01:40:04+00:00, edited 1 time in total.

VINXIS

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VINXIS 2017-12-04T01:17:35+00:00

ur method of persuasion is bad honestlyyyyyyyy
wouldnt say slider tickrate 4 is bad for the map but it definitely isnt ur best option Tbh

wots actually bad is ur ncing please REMOVEEEEE ALL BLUE TICK NCS P L E A S E WTF

pimp

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Topic Starter

pimp 2017-12-04T01:39:44+00:00

reminder: anyone interested in joining the discussion at least bring valid arguments, only saying that you don't agree with something without valid arguments makes your opinion meaningless.

VINXIS

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VINXIS 2017-12-04T01:51:08+00:00

Hello.

I assume you mean reasoning instead of arguments as saying you do not agree with something is an argument; however, as to what you think is a valid reason is questionable, and you may need to explain as to why the reason is invalid (for example, stating why the person's reason does not hold up).

The slider tick 4 that you currently have is fine I guess, but it is definitely not the best option that you have. Mapping them out and changing your hitsounding patterns is better mostly because you are trying to map to one thing while hitsounding to something completely different... that itself will confuse players in the first place!

May I ask, what is your definition of new comboing? From what I see, you may have a definition of new comboing which holds comboing in general at a low pedestal considering the colossal amount of inconsistencies and blue tick NCs

is this ok pimpGsenpai OwOwowowowo

- VINXIS
tryin to make a change :-\

pimp

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Topic Starter

pimp 2017-12-04T19:59:23+00:00

you might think that what i say is questionable but it doesn't changes the fact that what i did is rankeable so everything is valid until someone proves otherwise, but no one explained why my stuff is not acceptable... you didn't even explain why you think what i say is questionable...

if slider tick rate 4 is fine, then it's fine. people is free to suggest whatever they want but the mapper decides what to do with the suggestions.
there is no need to worry about the players, if they miss notes it's their own fault for not being skilled enough, they just have to learn and adapt, there is nothing confusing about the way i mapped, and i don't see how keeping hitsound consistency could make players confused, if they miss it's their own fault, i mapped in a way that makes sense to the song, that's all that matters.

nowadays most of the maps are made to confuse players, actually. anyone that is too worried about the weaker players can simply map easy normal and a friendly hard. my map is a Marathon but it's clearly an Insane level (i will probably rename it to Lunatic next update), it's supposed to be a bit challenging, the difficulty is named "Lunatic" for a reason, my map is easier than the average Lunatic/Insane anyway.

the blue ticks are there to be mapped, the slider ticks are there to be customized or whatever, the settings are there to be used.

really, since when using new combos on blue ticks is a bad thing? you could possibly be the type of mapper that thinks that the only fitting spots to use new combos are on main beats, for all songs. you are the only one so far that's making this a big deal.
i use new combo where i think that it works better regardless of the color of the tick, i don't map the song thinking on the spots where i wiill use new combos or hitsounds so sometimes i find limitations to my new combo usage, i use shorter combos where it makes sense.

if my new combos bothers you that much then make a detailed new combo mod, i give you a more detailed explanation, and even if i don't fix anything i will give you kudosu.

VINXIS

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VINXIS 2017-12-09T07:29:45+00:00

Hello.

No. I said that what you consider a reason to be "valid" is questionable because you never explicitly stated what you define a "valid reason" to be... I never said that any of your statements are questionable, only what you consider an object to be defined as. Please do not put words into my mouth!

- VINXIS
tryin to make a change :-\

pimp

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Topic Starter

pimp 2017-12-09T20:48:11+00:00

i wrote walls of text of valid arguments already in page 4 and a significant number of skilled mappers also were able to understand (and approve) what i did easily. while the people who are against me using slider tick rate 4 says nothing but "it's not good" "it's not fitting" "i don't like it" "just agree with the BN's already" i don't consider those valid arguments.

it's not good = that's subjective, everyone has it's own opinion on what's good or not.

it's not fitting = the song has 1/4 rhythm so it is fitting. i have a lot of ticks silenced because i don't need them, silencing ticks is rankeable and the developers show no interest of allowing beatmaps to have different slider tick rates per green line, and this was a feature that has been requested 9 years ago.

i don't like it = the beatmap was not made specifically to you, it's my map, i like it and other people will like it, i made sure that everything is rankeable.

you should just agree with the BN's = i don't need to reply to trolls or people who don't have their own opinion (but i still did).
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

btw "best option" to map something does not exists, beatmapping is like expressing how you feel the song, everyone can have their own way to express their understanding of the song, this is how i feel about the song and that's it.

you already said that tick rate 4 is fine for you, and you don't look like you are going to make that detailed new combo mod, so we are probably done discussing.

thanks for the feedback

VINXIS

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VINXIS 2017-12-09T21:15:34+00:00

Hello.

You still did not define what a "valid" reason is to me... I haven't even replied to the other parts of my original post... I just want you to tell me what would make a reason "valid"...

- VINXIS
tryin to make a change :-\

pimp

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Topic Starter

pimp 2017-12-09T21:52:11+00:00

that's the problem, everyone wants me to explain myself here because they don't understand their own position as modders in my beatmap.
^
^
honestly, a mapper desn't even needs to provide valid arguments on why his stuff is acceptable as long as his stuff is rankeable (but i still did, and everything i say are valid arguments)

it's the modders "job" to explain why something rankeable (that also has been done before by other mappers) is not acceptable, and so far no one did that, i replied to everyone politely and they don't come back to continue the discussion...

everything is valid until proven otherwise.

VINXIS

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Joined April 2014

VINXIS 2017-12-09T22:10:48+00:00

Hello.

To clear up/specify my question, I am asking, "What would make a modder's reason valid?"

- VINXIS
tryin to make a change :-\

pimp

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Topic Starter

pimp 2017-12-09T22:16:29+00:00

proving that their suggestions will benefit my map more than the current way i have mapped.

only saying that they don't like, doestn't looks fitting, or it's not good proves nothing.

VINXIS

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3,161 posts

Joined April 2014

VINXIS 2017-12-09T22:33:50+00:00

Hello.

OK. We finally got that solved. Onto the next part of my original post.

When I meant by "slider tick 4 is fine, but definitely not the best option you have," I meant that regardless of if there is a best option or not, the possibility of "using slider tick 4" being (a/one of the) best option(s) here is 0% because there is still a better option which is better because it works much better at a fundamental scale, and this option is mapping to what you are basing your hitsounds on. Mappers are essentially the game developers in a sense, and they map for a target audience/skill level. If their target audience becomes confused at the patterning while they play it, then it probably is not a good choice to use such option for the sake of your target audience. My hypothesis is that your target audience will become confused because your rhythm patterning is much different to your hitsound patterning without any substantial reason in general as far as i can see considering the inconsistencies between mapping to and not to drums.

The best way to check this is asking multiple people in your target audience to test it! Maybe include yourself as well if you are part of the target audience!

I would also like to know how you "mapped in a way that makes sense to the song." I am not saying it doesn't, but rather curious as to your reasons for mapping in such way compared to other ways, since it is a cool idea.

- VINXIS
tryin to make a change :-\

pimp

1,417 posts

Joined April 2010

Topic Starter

pimp 2017-12-10T03:00:51+00:00

i don't agree with the idea that beatmaps are made for a target audience (at least i don't do that).
i already said earlier that i don't map for anyone in particular, i just map the way i like.
mapping for target audience (that the mapper himself may not be included) can be interpreted as mapping to become a popular mapper even at the cost of not liking your own creation. (not everyone are like that, but there are mappers like that for sure) beatmapping should be about expressing yourself, not impressing other people.

basically everyone is my target audience, including the players from the other game modes, they are free to play my map (if they don't like it that's another story...)
it's just a matter of who would actually be interested in giving it a try, some people might not want to give it a try, because they don't like the song, they only play maps that are trending, they only play maps from popular mappers, they only play maps with specific star rating, length, language...

to me, it's not accurate to assume everyone from the possible target audience will enjoy the map, and that no one that's not part of that possible target audience would dislike the map.
WubWoofWolf for exemple, if he is supposed to be part of a specific target audience, then he is part of the audience that plays competitively for Performance Points, maps that gives less than 300 pp would not interest him, but WWW often plays old maps and easier diffs that gives him no PP at all.

another exemple is henry11ei, never talked to him before, he accepted to testplay my map, i checked his profile, his rank is 6 digit and he already played over 15.000 times, but his most played beatmap is big black (over 150 plays is enough to know that "the map was made for 3 digit players or better", so he played the map that much because he liked it or because he wanted to improve his skills, the real reason doesn't really matters, what's relevant is the fact that he was interested in the beatmap even when he would not be considered part of a possible target audience)

it's up to the player that added a map to his client to decide if the map interests him or not, he can play a map regardless of being able to make a full combo, or to even complete it. that's why the mods that makes the maps easier or impossible to fail exists, so anyone will be able to enjoy any map. same applies for the mods the makes the maps harder, they allow competitive players to play easier maps competitively...

i guess we can say that older players/mappers would usually like my map more, considering that all the very skilled veterans i asked for opinions accepted my map the way it is, but that's just a consequence of the way i like to map.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
i will be getting testplays from players with different skill levels, i'm okay with doing this, so far i got:

asked for testplays on modhelp

only henry11hey accepted at that time.

chat log henry11hey

20:40 henry11hei: I can do it
20:40 pimpG: i want to watch
20:40 *henry11hei is away: eating
20:40 pimpG: can you also play with default osu skin and stuff?
20:40 henry11hei: I can try
20:40 *pimpG is listening to [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1489084 3L - Macrophylla Parasol]
20:41 henry11hei: I am here mapping rewind 2015
20:46 pimpG: how do i save your replay btw?
20:48 pimpG: i'm trying to think on relevant question to ask...
20:49 pimpG: what's your opinion on the map?
20:49 henry11hei: is fine
20:49 henry11hei: deafult skin is killing me
20:49 pimpG: what about your performance? do you think i mapped anything that was too confusing that made you miss that much?
20:50 pimpG: or is it just above your skill level?
20:50 henry11hei: the skin
20:50 henry11hei: THE SKIN
20:50 pimpG: then please play again with your skin
20:50 pimpG: if you can
20:50 henry11hei: I think something died inside me
20:50 pimpG: ??
20:51 henry11hei: ok
20:55 henry11hei: it kinda remind me of old maps
20:58 pimpG: it is an old map, i'm from 2010, most of this map was made it 2013~2014
20:58 pimpG: again, is there anything confusing about this map?
20:59 henry11hei: and you sumitet in 2016?
20:59 pimpG: yeah
20:59 henry11hei: I think it was fine
20:59 pimpG: i usually submit completed maps
20:59 pimpG: this one was complete, but with experimental hitsounds
21:00 pimpG: do you think i have confusing hitsounds?
21:00 henry11hei: I don't think it was so much confusing with the map
21:01 pimpG: do you allow me to save this log and post in the thread with your replay files later?
21:01 henry11hei: but why do you need people to test play it?
21:01 henry11hei: yes
21:01 pimpG: some people claim that the way i mapped is confusing
21:01 pimpG: my hitsounds are bad
21:02 pimpG: the whole drama is in the thread
21:02 pimpG: starting at page 3
21:02 henry11hei: it is a old map
21:02 pimpG: yeah, it can be seen that way
21:02 henry11hei: so no wonder people gonna complain
21:03 pimpG: yeah, but the people that makes maps qualified nowadays are too close minded
21:03 henry11hei: https://puu.sh/yCY38/0b0362f087.osr
21:03 henry11hei: replay
21:03 pimpG: if they are not familiar with something, then it's not rankeable for them
21:04 henry11hei: maybe
21:04 henry11hei: idk
21:04 pimpG: i asked a lot of veterans
21:04 pimpG: they all think my map is fine
21:04 pimpG: i mean
21:04 pimpG: i asked val0108
21:05 pimpG: he thinks my map is fine
21:05 henry11hei: I don't have any idea who that is
21:05 pimpG: i asked, mismagius (blue dragon) he also thinks that my map is fine
21:05 pimpG: val0108 is basically one of the gods of beatmapping
21:06 henry11hei: I think the confusen here is the mapper and player
21:06 pimpG: blue dragon is not far behind
21:06 pimpG: what?
21:06 henry11hei: the conmunity
21:06 henry11hei: is have been diffrent since 2010
21:07 henry11hei: I have idea
21:07 pimpG: yup, this map you testplayed i consider my best beatmap, and i'm struggling to get it qualified
21:07 pimpG: my 1st map was not very polished and i got it ranked easily
21:07 pimpG: but it was in 2012
21:08 pimpG: so yeah, BN's are too close minded
21:08 pimpG: do you know anyone else that would accept to testplay my map?
21:08 henry11hei: it is not the first time something like this happen
21:08 pimpG: definitely
21:08 henry11hei: nope
21:09 henry11hei: good luck getting it rank
21:09 pimpG: i will do my best, thanks for your help

his performance was not good at all but he didn't blame my mapping style or anything about my hitsounds.
i think his performance is just relative to his skill level, 6 digit player able to complete the map but with bad accuracy and several misses.
the misses were not on places with slider tick sounds

i also asked for testplays on the brazillian mapper's discord server

Bariton and TheBenderGamer accepted
Ataraxia accepted too but he already modded/testplayed the map ages ago, he made a live stream modding/testplaying the map and the link is on description
if i recal correctly, ataraxia didn't complain about the slider ticks at any moment, and even if he did he changed his mind eventually because he didn't post anything about the slider tick hitsounds on his mod.

chat log Bariton

21:43 *Bariton is listening to [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1489084 3L - Macrophylla Parasol]
21:43 Bariton: vo testa
21:43 Bariton: me dá spec
21:43 pimpG: opa blz
21:50 pimpG: fc de primeira

21:50 Bariton: ow mt bom
21:50 Bariton: fc toptop
21:50 pimpG: vc jogou com sua propria skin?
21:50 pimpG: vc desabilitou meus hitsounds?
21:50 Bariton: nop
21:50 Bariton: eu deixo sempre o hitsound
21:50 Bariton: do mapa
21:50 Bariton: mas a skin eu joguei com a minha
21:51 Bariton: gostei dos hitsounds nos ticks :3
21:51 Bariton: talco
21:51 pimpG: valew

21:51 pimpG: então vc os notou mas eles não te incomodaram/atrapalharam, certo?
21:51 Bariton: yw
21:51 Bariton: hmm
21:51 Bariton: não
21:51 Bariton: não mesmo shjsd
21:52 Bariton: eu achei bonitinho
21:52 pimpG: hmmm
21:52 pimpG: vou salvar seu replay
21:52 Bariton: do it
21:52 pimpG: vc me permite postar esse log no thread? junto com o replay?
21:52 Bariton: de boas
21:52 pimpG: blz valew
22:17 pimpG: puts acho que esqueci de salvar o replay
22:17 pimpG: vc tem ai?
22:17 Bariton: nop
22:17 Bariton: se quiser eu jogo dnv
22:17 pimpG: blz
22:17 Bariton: pera so vou ao banheiro q
22:18 pimpG: ok
22:19 Bariton: voltei
22:22 pimpG: salva o replay ai e manda pra mim tb
22:22 pimpG: ai eu mando os 2 replays la na thread
22:25 Bariton: ook
22:26 Bariton: mandei no discord
22:26 pimpG: valew
22:26 Bariton: nd
22:26 Bariton: vou sair
22:26 Bariton: adiso

he did a FC in the 1st try, very good accuracy, i asked if he was using his own skin and if he disabled the map's hitsounds. he was using his own skin but didn't disable the hitsounds.
he praised my "taikosu hitsounding". i asked if he noticed my slider tick sounds and if they bothered him, he said he noticed them and they were cute.
later i noticed that i didn't save his replay, then i asked him to play again so i could save it and he got another FC with good accuracy.

chat log TheBenderGamer

21:59 TheBenderGamer: pimp
21:59 pimpG: ?
21:59 TheBenderGamer: sinto que esse hp está mt grande
21:59 TheBenderGamer: pq vamos dizer uma pessoa de hr
21:59 TheBenderGamer: for jogar
21:59 pimpG: hmm
21:59 TheBenderGamer: esse começo tem umas pausas
21:59 pimpG: na verdade eu queria assistir os testadores
22:00 pimpG: e salvar os replays
22:00 pimpG: conversar
22:00 pimpG: sobre coisas especificas do map
22:00 TheBenderGamer: hm entendi
22:00 pimpG: não importa se vc é capaz de fazer fc
22:00 pimpG: está interessado em testar?
22:00 TheBenderGamer: sim
22:07 pimpG: nada mal
22:07 pimpG: o que achou do map em geral?
22:07 TheBenderGamer: em geral ele está normal
22:07 TheBenderGamer: digo
22:07 TheBenderGamer: n tem problema nenhum com ele com jogabilidade
22:08 pimpG: mas ainda assim vc errou bastante
22:08 pimpG: o que vc diria que foi a causa?
22:08 TheBenderGamer: do meu mouse/mouse pad
22:08 pimpG: hmm
22:08 pimpG: entendo
22:08 TheBenderGamer: como uma hora vai mt distante
22:08 TheBenderGamer: meu mouse fica la em cima
22:08 TheBenderGamer: é complicado
22:09 TheBenderGamer: porém em algumas partes eu senti desconforto
22:09 TheBenderGamer: msm
22:09 TheBenderGamer: porém acredito eu que seja normal ter como em
22:09 TheBenderGamer: 01:40:590 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) -
22:10 TheBenderGamer: esse é movimento que ao menos
22:10 TheBenderGamer: da desconforto
22:10 TheBenderGamer: mas creio que seja só cmg
22:10 pimpG: acho que nessa parte vc só errou na ultima nota
22:10 TheBenderGamer: sim
22:11 pimpG: vc percebeu meus hitsounds em slider ticks?
22:11 TheBenderGamer: acho que é só isso
22:11 TheBenderGamer: sim mt bem
22:11 TheBenderGamer: é a coisa mais evidente kkkkk
22:11 pimpG: atrapalhou em alguma coisa?
22:11 pimpG: vc acha eles estranhos?
22:11 TheBenderGamer: faz parecer q n estamos jogando no ''vazio''
22:11 TheBenderGamer: não atrapalhou
22:12 TheBenderGamer: ficaria estranho sem eles
22:12 pimpG: bacana, fico feliz que gostou

22:12 pimpG: agora famos falar sobre o hd q vc mencionou
22:12 pimpG: hr
22:12 pimpG: hp
22:12 pimpG: lol
22:12 TheBenderGamer: kk
22:13 pimpG: vc acha que está muito alto para a diff inteira? ou só para o começo que tem poucas notas?
22:13 TheBenderGamer: o começo
22:13 pimpG: antes estava mais alto o hp, eu abaixei um pouco pq reclamaram disso mesmo
22:13 pimpG: vou abaixar uma fração a mais então
22:14 TheBenderGamer: 6.6 ainda é um valor um pouco alto
22:14 TheBenderGamer: deixa 6.4 6.2 sla
22:14 TheBenderGamer: pois acho que a maioria irá jogar de hr
22:14 pimpG: hmm
22:14 pimpG: vou comparar o atual com 6.5
22:15 pimpG: aos poucos vou ajustando o hr conforme o pessoal diz o que pensa sobre
22:15 pimpG: hp*
22:15 pimpG: ah
22:15 TheBenderGamer: mas se você quiser deixar 6.6 n tem problema
22:16 pimpG: vc me autorisa a postar esse replay e esse chat log na thread depois?
22:16 TheBenderGamer: pode
22:16 pimpG: puts esqueci de salvar
22:17 TheBenderGamer: quer q eu passo o replaY?
22:17 pimpG: vc tem ai?
22:17 pimpG: sim
22:17 TheBenderGamer: replay*
22:17 TheBenderGamer: fica salvo
22:17 TheBenderGamer: só n sei se é do jeito que vc quer
22:17 pimpG: a gente ve depois
22:18 pimpG: se eu conseguir usar aqui, provavelmente outros tb conseguem
22:18 TheBenderGamer: mandei no discord
22:18 pimpG: blz, depois eu testo
22:18 pimpG: esqueci de salvar o do bariton tb
22:18 pimpG: ele vai jogar de novo ja que ele tb não salva
22:18 TheBenderGamer: é só pedir
22:18 TheBenderGamer: ele deu fc?
22:18 pimpG: sim xD
22:18 TheBenderGamer: fica salvo no local e é só ele exporta
22:18 pimpG: fc de primeira
22:19 TheBenderGamer: ''posição local''
22:19 TheBenderGamer: ele poderia testar de hr pq ele sabe fazer
22:19 TheBenderGamer: facil
22:19 pimpG: ah deixa, ele vai jogar de novo, eu só vou lembrar de salvar
22:19 TheBenderGamer: blz
22:19 TheBenderGamer: qualquer ajuda é só pedir
22:19 TheBenderGamer: <3

he played on his own rather than telling me that he was going to testplay the map, later he sent me a pm complaining about the HP, i said that this could be discussed later and asked him to play again while i watch him play.
his performance was not very good but i asked him and he thinks the map is not mapped wrong, at some point he said that he is not good at ar8 but he didn't mean that it was not fitting, he blames his mousepad for the bad performance, and his skill level.
i asked if he noticed the slider tick hitsounds he said that it was the most noticeable thing in the mapset. i asked if the slider tick hitsounds bothered him he said that they didn't, and the map would feel empty without them.
later i told him that i forget to save his replay so he sent me his saved replay

all of the replays from the mappers i asked for testplay so far

my own lazy replay i used to play better than that, but i'm not playing often lately, so i had a lot of misses, none of them were caused by being confused by hitsounds, mostly aim misses, i mean obvious aim misses, not slider tick misses.

you can go ahead and post your own testplay, but since bariton, a 4 digit player, was able to get a FC on the 1st try, i expect nothing less than a FC with better accuracy from you as you are a 3 digit player. let's not forget about henry11hei, 6 digit player being able to beat my score playing the map the 1st time or 2nd time. he clearly struggled a lot, but he was able to keep a significant combo.

so this is the local ranking with the current saved replays

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

i will be getting more testplays eventually.

as for you asking me reasons to map the way i did, it's just as i said before, i didn't wanted to mention your name when i said that "they don't understand their own position as modders" but yeah, you are basically making the same mistake as them.
^
^
i don't need to explain why i did something in a way to prove that it's acceptable, it's the modder's "job" prove that what i'm doing is not acceptable.

to be honest this is not even relevant to the discussion, the way i mapped was accepted already, it's just that people don't want me to use slider ticks sounds and use SB'ed sounds instead.

i'm okay with trying to explain to you how i feel about the song and anything else, but as i said, this is not relevant to the discussion, just ask me ingame and i will do my best to explain. but this will just be me trying to be nice to someone interested in knowing more about the way i map, it does not contributes to the discussion at all.

VINXIS

Featured Artist

3,161 posts

Joined April 2014

VINXIS 2017-12-10T04:49:30+00:00

Hello.

osu! is a game I recall.
Mappers are creating the content of the game.
Ranked beatmaps are ranked so that players can have fun and compete in the game.

When you are ranking a beatmap, you are not mapping for yourself, you are mapping for the players. This is because for any game that exists, the game developers/content creators are creating content for the players. Again, they are making it for the players, which means not (just) for themselves. This is what ranking a map entails.

If you are only mapping for yourself, then I would highly recommend that you do not rank your map, as the ranked beatmaps are made for players, not for mappers themselves. It actually is quite absurd to rank a map only for yourself, and osu! is the only game that exists that has this surreal problem where the content creators are not creating content for their audience.

You didn't need to link/embed a bunch of testplays... that doesn't do anything. I merely stated a suggestion that would seems to be better than your slider tick 4 idea currently, and if the testplayers in your target audience says it plays fine, then the chances of it being fine are good... you didn't need to link a bunch of plays and chatlogs saying so; however, I would ask the players if they think that actually mapping to what you are hitsounding to would be better or not, if I were you (because I am very sure they would agree, though I may be wrong).

I do not care what the other modders have said regarding this, as I want to discuss with you 1 on 1 regarding these few problems I have with the beatmap, and I am sure I have given "valid" reasoning so far for this specific point (if I did not, then I would like an explanation as to why).

That last section of your latest reply is irrational... if modders can not figure out what the mapper is trying to do, then the mapper should explain their intentions behind their method of mapping such a way if requested. Failing in doing so shows that the mapper is either swallowed up in ignorance, can't be bothered to, or doesn't know themselves as to why they mapped in such a way. I never said it was relevant either as I was merely interested as to how you came up with choosing such a concept. Again, please do not put words into my mouth!

- VINXIS
tryin to make a change :-\

pimp

1,417 posts

Joined April 2010

Topic Starter

pimp 2017-12-10T05:57:29+00:00

i don't remember saying that i'm mapping for myself, i said that i map the way i like.

i decide if i want my map approved or not.

i just provided "detailed" testplays, there is nothing wrong with it.

your reasoning doesn't looks convincing to me because it implies that there is better ways to map than others, that's just subjectiveness, beatmapping is not something exact, everyone can see it differenlty.

the modders figured what i did already, they just don't want me to use slider tick rate 4

i won't be writing walls of text for you anymore since you are making it look like you feel bothered by anything i say. so if this 1 on 1 discussion really haves to be longer than it needs, then at least i won't be wasting too much of my time making detailed explanation.

VINXIS

Featured Artist

3,161 posts

Joined April 2014

VINXIS 2017-12-10T06:52:54+00:00

Hello.

It sounded like that is what you implied when you said that you "don't agree with the idea that beatmaps are made for a target audience" and that you "just map the way i like." I'm not sure as to what else I would have made of it so...?

However, I am NOT saying that mapping is concrete or exact. I am saying that there are good/bad and better/worse options for when you are creating something, such as "does this note that is not in the song's main scale really belong at this place?" or "does this colour really fit with my palette for this picture I am creating?" There are always better options than what someone has created, and there are always worse options than what someone has created.

Think of it like an endless building that does not necessarily start or end anywhere in terms of height, and that the floors are the choices. The higher you go up, the better the artistic choice. There may not be a best option (aka there is no top floor), but there is always a choice that is better than current. Such is the way of artistic choices and anything that requires creative thinking. Surprisingly, mapping requires creative thinking! What I meant to do was suggest a floor (mapping to the sounds you hitsounded to) that could be higher than your current floor (using slider tick 4 for the sake of hitsounds). It is subjective; however, there are multiple ways to see if it is better or not, such as trying it out yourself and see. I never said the slider tick 4 was bad mind you.

In terms of ranking, the BNG/staff decide if your map gets ranked, not you... but I see what you mean I guess.

In terms of the testplays, I meant that you went pretty over the top, and that you didn't really need to do that as it does not help in backing your claim anymore than simply saying "I got a few people that were within the target audience that say that it plays fine, and none of them say it plays bad".

And again, I really do not care as to what the other modders have said, since I am the one asking as to why you mapped in such a way! I will repeat again that "if modders can not figure out what the mapper is trying to do, then the mapper should explain their intentions behind their method of mapping such a way if requested. Failing in doing so shows that the mapper is either swallowed up in ignorance, can't be bothered to, or doesn't know themselves as to why they mapped in such a way." If the mapper tells the modder the reasoning, then the modder may possibly be able to suggest somethign that would help convey what the mapper was trying to do better so such questions don't need to be asked in the future like how I currently am.

I'm bothered by nothing that you've said so far, it is interesting seeing an obscure viewpoint, so I'm just curious. Plus, discussions are the only way to resolve things.

- VINXIS
ostensibly tryin to make a change :-\

pimp

1,417 posts

Joined April 2010

Topic Starter

pimp 2017-12-10T13:54:47+00:00

my "target audience" is basically everyone, already said that in the longer post.

if it's not exact then it's variable, subjective, or whatever we can call it.
so anything else said about it is nothing but expressing own opinion/taste.

in terms of ranking, my map's ranking process was delayed because of subjectiveness, not legit issues... but the members of BNG involved don't seem to understand the difference.

i tried to provide convincing testplays to avoid people complaining about how the texts could be simply me asking my friends to say what i want them to say to benefit me here.

i don't need to explain to every single mapper what i already explained before over and over, if they are interested then they should be the ones to read the info available on the discussion
i will make a simplified explanation now just for you because i'm respecting your effort...

everything i mapped is representing a sound in the music, and is properly hitsounded,
that includes the blue ticks mapped as hit-able objects, they have their own hitsounding while the slider tick hitsounds near them are usually the "default" rhythm that was mapped/hitsounded with hit-able objects for the most part of the beatmap,
not having them hitsounded would result on inconsistent hitsounding.

more simpler version:

circles and sliders are all mapped to relevant sounds and hitsounded propperly
the custom slider ticks are basically hitsound consistency fixes and extra hitsounds for nice and unusual sounds.

Uta

965 posts

Joined December 2016

Uta 2017-12-15T13:51:04+00:00

reading simulator. i actually enjoy this conversation.

pimp

1,417 posts

Joined April 2010

Topic Starter

pimp 2017-12-24T17:55:51+00:00

today i saw cRyo[iceeicee] online so i decided to ask his opinion about my map
just like before, i bolded the most relevant parts

cRyo(iceeicee)

2017-12-24 14:56 pimpG: hello
2017-12-24 14:57 cRyo[iceeicee]: hi
2017-12-24 14:58 pimpG: i really need opinions from god tier mappers (only opinion, not mod) will you have some free time to check something very specific in my map in the near future?
2017-12-24 15:00 cRyo[iceeicee]: ok
2017-12-24 15:00 pimpG: ACTION is listening to [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1489084 3L - Macrophylla Parasol]
2017-12-24 15:02 pimpG: slider tick rate 2 was good enough for the most part of my map's slider tick hitsounding
2017-12-24 15:02 pimpG: but there is 11 sliders that requires me to use slider tick rate 4 to be able to custom hitsound
2017-12-24 15:02 pimpG: 01:17:294 (2) - 01:30:022 (8) - 01:39:113 (2) - 01:45:135 (3) - 01:48:772 (1) - 05:03:658 (3) - 05:10:931 (3) - 05:15:476 (5) - 05:23:658 (2) - 05:30:022 (5) - 05:49:794 (2) -
2017-12-24 15:03 pimpG: a few BN's are against me using slider tick rate 4
2017-12-24 15:03 pimpG: so i asked a lot of veterans and, all of them agree with me so far
2017-12-24 15:05 cRyo[iceeicee]: i think you can use SB hitsounds
2017-12-24 15:05 pimpG: i don't like sb hitsounds
2017-12-24 15:05 pimpG: they can't be disabled, will be played even if the player miss the notes
2017-12-24 15:06 pimpG: everything i did in this mapset is rankeable btw
2017-12-24 15:06 pimpG: i silenced the unecessary slider ticks, it is rankeable too
2017-12-24 15:07 pimpG: don't want to take too much of your time, so do you think it's fine to keep slider tick 4?
2017-12-24 15:08 cRyo[iceeicee]: well i dunno what was a purpose of a sliderticks in osu, but since they are audible by the default i think they are about hitsounding, not the gameplay, and back to those days when we were mapping in osu we used slider ticks only to put some hs on them, otherwise 0.5 tick rate
2017-12-24 15:08 cRyo[iceeicee]: so idk whats problem with tickrate 4
2017-12-24 15:09 cRyo[iceeicee]: https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/690556/#osu/1479927
2017-12-24 15:09 pimpG: yeah, it has little to no inpact on gameplay
2017-12-24 15:09 cRyo[iceeicee]: i also used tick 4
2017-12-24 15:09 pimpG: oh nice
2017-12-24 15:09 pimpG: gonna check
2017-12-24 15:09 cRyo[iceeicee]: i mean i forsed him to change to tick 4 for hs xD
2017-12-24 15:09 pimpG: cool!
2017-12-24 15:10 cRyo[iceeicee]: i used them for this part
2017-12-24 15:10 cRyo[iceeicee]: 01:49:736 -
2017-12-24 15:11 cRyo[iceeicee]: you should ask some players, do they care about ticks, in my opinion if smth not affecting gameplay its fine
2017-12-24 15:12 pimpG: i think the tick rate affects your map more than mines, since mines has smaller sliders
2017-12-24 15:12 pimpG: but yours seems ok too
2017-12-24 15:12 pimpG: will ask some players
2017-12-24 15:13 cRyo[iceeicee]: oh yeah i think higher st boost some scores
2017-12-24 15:13 pimpG: wow, the slider has stutters
2017-12-24 15:13 pimpG: is it for loved?
2017-12-24 15:13 cRyo[iceeicee]: idk
2017-12-24 15:14 pimpG: the stuttering slider is unrankeable, so it's probably for loved
2017-12-24 15:15 cRyo[iceeicee]: but they fit the music xD
2017-12-24 15:16 pimpG: i agree

2017-12-24 15:17 pimpG: i guess if it's going for loved, then it won't help my map at all
2017-12-24 15:17 cRyo[iceeicee]: and whats the problem with st4 anyway?
2017-12-24 15:17 cRyo[iceeicee]: aesthetic?
2017-12-24 15:17 pimpG: hmmm
2017-12-24 15:17 cRyo[iceeicee]: or because it boost scores
2017-12-24 15:18 pimpG: they never said anything conclusive about it, only don't want me to use it
2017-12-24 15:18 cRyo[iceeicee]: they should explain the reason behind this
2017-12-24 15:18 cRyo[iceeicee]: st4 is unrankable by the default?
2017-12-24 15:19 pimpG: no, it's rankeable
2017-12-24 15:19 pimpG: they claim to be unfitting in my map
2017-12-24 15:19 pimpG: but silencing ticks is rankeable, and i did that
2017-12-24 15:19 pimpG: i don't think they are unfitting anyway
2017-12-24 15:20 pimpG: one of them said it's weird to see them, but even with double time he was able to get a B on the map
2017-12-24 15:20 cRyo[iceeicee]: its weird because everyone using 1.0 xD
2017-12-24 15:21 pimpG: my friend is ranked about 9000. was able to fc the map
2017-12-24 15:21 pimpG: yeah, they just don't see it nowadays so they consider it an issue
2017-12-24 15:24 pimpG: wow
2017-12-24 15:24 pimpG: somehow, tick rate 4 helps to notice the stuttering sliders in this map you hitsounded
2017-12-24 15:24 pimpG: so it makes it easier to play, actually
2017-12-24 15:24 cRyo[iceeicee]: ya, that was the point
2017-12-24 15:25 pimpG: then maybe, just maybe, it can be rankeable
2017-12-24 15:29 pimpG: do you allow me to post a chat log in the thread later?
2017-12-24 15:30 cRyo[iceeicee]: but everyone will see my broken inglish <_<
2017-12-24 15:30 cRyo[iceeicee]: ye idm
2017-12-24 15:31 pimpG: they will love you even more because of that xD
2017-12-24 15:31 pimpG: thank you xD
2017-12-24 15:31 cRyo[iceeicee]: yw/

well, another god-tier veteran agrees with me, clearly the discussion is not one sided, imo by now it should be clear enough that there is no problem about the tick rate 4 at all, it's just that this generation doesn't expect this type of setting to be used...

but i will be getting more opinions as cRyo suggested

more veteran's opinions on the previous page!
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

btw thanks to everyone who stalked the map so far. iirc, the map didn't even had 2000 views before the drama, now it has over 6500 views

thanks for the support?!?!?!?!

defiance

503 posts

Joined July 2015

defiance 2017-12-24T18:53:55+00:00

100th post

ScubDomino

690 posts

Joined September 2016

ScubDomino 2018-01-02T20:34:03+00:00

tick 4 🤔

Mun

468 posts

Joined July 2015

Mun 2018-01-04T19:04:37+00:00

if this somehow ever makes it to qualified or loved, everyone rate 4

hi-mei

784 posts

Joined June 2014

hi-mei 2018-01-04T19:08:03+00:00

Can u guys chill

pimp

1,417 posts

Joined April 2010

Topic Starter

pimp 2018-01-04T19:37:04+00:00

updated, added some skin elements. now the slider ticks are slightly less visible, it looks very nice imo.

Last edited by pimp 2018-02-04T10:01:54+00:00, edited 1 time in total.

hi-mei

784 posts

Joined June 2014

hi-mei 2018-01-05T07:28:51+00:00

I didnt read the thread, however there are few things i wanted to talk about:
hitsounding:
00:57:863 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,1) - basically it sounds inconsistent, why:
01:00:363 - 01:02:181 - 01:03:999 - 01:07:635 - i feel like you gotta find a better CHS for these.
feels really out of place
01:22:408 - 01:45:249 - stuff like that (slider tick hitsound as common one) feels strange in my opinion, basically ure avoiding rhythm adjustments by some reason? I mean, i played it on my skin without custom hs and i didnt feel anything there anyways.
if your map depends on custom hitsounds, it should also support players with their skins, which means it should be fine even with default hitsounds.
01:50:703 - looks like an issue here, 01:48:885 - reference (slider tick 01:50:703 - isnt activated?)
03:02:635 - sudden change in hitsounding? i cant really understand why tho?

04:33:317 (1,2,3) - this stuff is actually cool

rhythm:
honestly, i dont get why is this a break 00:30:590 -
like... what?
00:30:590 - it is a progression which is started 00:00:818 - from the very beginning, i have no idea why is this not mapped
02:19:681 - honestly, im strongly against such stuff. youre mapping strong beat on a slider tick, yea thats beacuse of vocals, but t doesnt mean u cant map 2 layers at the same time.
beat here is stronger and more distinguished than vocals. basically i would do the following:

02:39:681 - in this part such stuff like 02:41:044 - is okay, because this part is calm. but when it comes to regular/kiai parts I dont think its an option to oversimplify the rhythm.
03:04:113 - i just noticed, that these things arent mapped by some reason. not saying anything yet about it, however you probably oversimplified the rhythm too much (imo)
05:31:726 - man, this stuff is really oversimplified, its a start of new measure under the slider tick. like, wtf

structure:
01:26:044 (1,2,3,4,5) - stuff like that might be properly placed on hexagrid like im showing:

basically you should copy-paste 01:26:044 (1,2) - these two and rotate them by -120*
here is a code:

60,60,86044,5,8,0:0:0:0:
133,71,86272,1,0,0:0:0:0:
87,129,86499,1,8,0:0:0:0:
206,82,86726,1,0,0:0:0:0:
114,198,86953,2,0,P|162:255|250:271,1,138,10|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:

02:15:817 (5) - is off a bit, not lining up with 02:14:681 (2,3,4) - you have to move the entire pattern to the left-down to make 5 fitting in the playfield.
05:33:999 (3,4) - and 04:58:090 (2,1) - seems inconsistent
05:46:499 (2,3) - i cant really tell its a 1/4s depending on how they look distance-wise. 05:46:840 (4,5) - same here. referense: 05:50:476 (3,4) -

aesthetics:
01:33:317 (2,1) - might consider removing the overlap. the easiest way to make the map look clean is to make sure that the visual distance between active/fading out objects is equal, if you cant avoid 2 objects overlapping each other - the best option is to make them blanketing/paralleling/stacking on each other.
02:49:567 (6,4) - ^
02:54:226 (4,2) - ^
03:00:135 (2,2) - ^
03:41:272 (3,3) - ^
03:53:658 (4,2) - ^
05:14:226 (5,3) - ^
04:55:590 (2,2) - ^
05:28:772 (1,4) - ^
05:57:863 (7) - ^
02:02:408 - nc maybe? its a different sound measure
03:36:953 - ^
03:51:499 (4) - ^
04:36:953 (4) - ^
04:51:499 (3) - ^
05:36:044 (6) - ^
04:46:044 - white combo? you havent used it before. so as i can assume, its used for vocals-only 05:08:544 (1) - like this? however 05:16:044 (1) - here are the beats.
04:56:044 (1,2,3,4) - imo, you can make them more precise:

overall it plays nice, a bit too slow for me but w/e i guess. the ideas youre pushing are interesting, however the way they were executed is kinda poor. maybe ill become a bn soon so you can consider me for further help.

gl!

pimp

1,417 posts

Joined April 2010

Topic Starter

pimp 2018-01-05T19:32:50+00:00

it is clear that he had good intentions, but since the modder doesn't looks happy with my reasons to deny his suggestions, and also because i was considered to be denying standards of mapping, i edited this post to make a more detailed mod reply.
note that i already linked what really are standards of mapping in my next post, so lets just call the suggestions "modern mapping tendencies" instead of "standards of mapping"

updates to the mod reply are using this color
all of the other colors are the original reply

hi-mei wrote:
I didnt read the thread, however there are few things i wanted to talk about:
hitsounding:
00:57:863 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,1) - basically it sounds inconsistent, why:
01:00:363 - 01:02:181 - 01:03:999 - 01:07:635 - i feel like you gotta find a better CHS for these. (don't know what you mean by CHS but i'm happy with those hitsounds, i didn't pick hitsounds specifically for those parts, those hitsounds were used in a lot other places so unless someone send me hitsounds files and i agree that they are better, they are probably not going to be replaced.. so you linked a userpage with a lot of hitsounds, but in my reply i said that i would just wait for someone to directly send me the exact hitsounds that he thinks that are more fitting, so i was trying to say that i would not search everywhere by myself for hitsounds since i'm happy with the current hitsouding. well, i will at least take a look on the library files eventually, who knows.... maybe i actually approve something...)
feels really out of place
01:22:408 - 01:45:249 - stuff like that (slider tick hitsound as common one) feels strange in my opinion, basically ure avoiding rhythm adjustments by some reason? I mean, i played it on my skin without custom hs and i didnt feel anything there anyways. (custom slider tick hitsounding as a common one is an existing mapping technique, it may not be used often nowadays but this doesn't means i can't use it.. i'm mostly mapping vocals, so these spots are not really relevant to map, they being clickable notes are 1000% optional. making any noticeable sound as clickable note usually creates the least creative patterns on the timeline and consequently, the notes structure itself becomes too similar to other people's maps. "If your map could fit in other songs with the same BPM, then your map is bad." NatsumeRin.
i simply put more effort on hitsounding than most people would. most people who maps vocals usually fail to have consistent hitsounding, even for the most basic patterns like claps on white ticks or even finishes on main beats. that's one of the features of my mapping >>>i'm not being lazy>>> i'm actually making stuff to work the way it should, just beacause i'm mapping vocal doesn't means i would ruin my "default hitsounds" like most people would.
(all respect for A r M i N , i don't think the map is bad but i wanted to show at least one exemple for this) https://osu.ppy.sh/s/549421 this map has the "default hitsounds" issues i mentioned on top diff. 00:44:305 (3,4) - he used clap the whole song on a fixed pattern except for this part that was mapped following vocals, i would try to avoid to have this hitsound inconsistency if i mapped the song, just like i'm doing in my song.)
if your map depends on custom hitsounds, it should also support players with their skins, which means it should be fine even with default hitsounds. (my map don't depend on anything in particular, they are just the hitsound style that i chose for the map. now my map is more compatible with "ignore beatmap hitsounds" option)
01:50:703 - looks like an issue here, 01:48:885 - reference (slider tick 01:50:703 - isnt activated?) (doesn't haves the same sound that the activated one have. while both objects are mapped to the vocals, 01:50:703 - doesn't haves the same synthesizer sound as 01:48:885 - so if i still added a custom hitsound for it, i would be "overmapping" the hitsounds. same applies for this other "pair" 01:45:135 (3) - 01:46:499 (6) - )
03:02:635 - sudden change in hitsounding? i cant really understand why tho? (idk about any sudden change, maybe you are talking about the hitsounds following the flute? in this case, the flute started 02:46:499 (1,2,3,4,5) - . your suggestion doesn't makes it clear what you are considering a sudden change since you only posted a timestamp, didn't mention what specific hitsound type or sample or how long this sudden change lasted, so i'm still assuming you were talking about the flute. i added that japanese percussion hitsounds in the ticks where the flute is present, i didn't add any extra japanese percusion sound to "overmap" or "remix" any part in this section, so it's accurately hitsounded imo.)

04:33:317 (1,2,3) - this stuff is actually cool ( )

rhythm:
honestly, i dont get why is this a break 00:30:590 -
like... what?
00:30:590 - it is a progression which is started 00:00:818 - from the very beginning, i have no idea why is this not mapped (this might be your own preference, the break is fitting, i don't like the idea of mapping this part because aside from the loud kicks, there is no difference between this part and the one i mapped (that is very repetitive already), asking someone to map this small part for me would be weird since i would be mapping 80% of the song. there is countless examples of maps with similar breaks. i'll just provide some exemples, Lily - Scarlet Rose, the two breaks keep the fast paced rhythm and val could have mapped if he wanted, he actually mapped the ending that has the exact same melody, just with a different pitch. Konuko - Toumei Elegy, G's Insane has a break on a very fast paced part while the slow intro was fully mapped. Another diff did almost the same thing, but mapped a bit more than G's the other diff's also have different breaks.
some diff't don't even have breaks. Mitsuki Nakae - Ouka Enbu same as before... so basically every mapper may have it's own opinion on where breaks are fitting, i personally don't agree with some of the ones i linked)
02:19:681 - honestly, im strongly against such stuff. youre mapping strong beat on a slider tick, yea thats beacuse of vocals, but t doesnt mean u cant map 2 layers at the same time. (as i said before, this is an existing mapping technique, some people may like it others not, this applies to any mapping technique,and anything else. As i said before, my priority is to map vocals, mapping too many rhythms at the same time would make this part to be like a 1/2 1/4 spam, so the vocal feeling would be lost in that mess. that's the thing about rhythm games, you don't follow all possible rhythms, or there wouldn't be rhythm at all.)
beat here is stronger and more distinguished than vocals. basically i would do the following:

02:39:681 - in this part such stuff like 02:41:044 - is okay, because this part is calm. but when it comes to regular/kiai parts I dont think its an option to oversimplify the rhythm. (^)
03:04:113 - i just noticed, that these things arent mapped by some reason. not saying anything yet about it, however you probably oversimplified the rhythm too much (imo) (they are repetitive and land on unusual ticks, mapping them would make a lot more difficult to map vocals.)
05:31:726 - man, this stuff is really oversimplified, its a start of new measure under the slider tick. like, wtf (there is only two relevant rhythms to follow aside from the beats... the flute and the back vocals. there is no flute in this part until 05:31:726 - so i'm just mapping the vocals until it's most fitting)

structure:
01:26:044 (1,2,3,4,5) - stuff like that might be properly placed on hexagrid like im showing: (i'd rather keep since my goal is to increase spacing note by note, your suggestion only haves increasing spacing after 3)
basically you should copy-paste 01:26:044 (1,2) - these two and rotate them by -120*
here is a code:
60,60,86044,5,8,0:0:0:0:
133,71,86272,1,0,0:0:0:0:
87,129,86499,1,8,0:0:0:0:
206,82,86726,1,0,0:0:0:0:
114,198,86953,2,0,P|162:255|250:271,1,138,10|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
02:15:817 (5) - is off a bit, not lining up with 02:14:681 (2,3,4) - you have to move the entire pattern to the left-down to make 5 fitting in the playfield. (i will try to move 5 a bit instead since it seems like it's gonna be enough space for this fix, i don't know if i will be able to make it perfect, this is actually kinda difficult to confirm since they are not perfectly staight with x or y )
05:33:999 (3,4) - and 04:58:090 (2,1) - seems inconsistent (inconsistent to what?)
05:46:499 (2,3) - i cant really tell its a 1/4s depending on how they look distance-wise. 05:46:840 (4,5) - same here. referense: 05:50:476 (3,4) - (the only 1/6's that i have in this map are 01:08:317 (4,1) - and they are both mapped as click-able 1/1. so the player is not supposed to expect 1/3's or 1/6's at all, since the whole song is mostly common rhythm 1/1 1/2 1/4... . to be honest i don't get why you used 05:50:476 (3,4) - as referehce since it's a stack. you can't compare a 1.30x DS 1/4 double with a stacked 1/4 double, because a stack usually don't mean that the object will always have a specific rhythm, people use stacks of all types of rhythm, and in the same song, and even in the same section if the mapper thinks that it's fitting. what i mean is that notes with 1/4 rhythm and 1.30 distance snap should be compared to notes with 1/4 rhythm and a distance snap that is big enough to not be a "stack based" placement (like 01:04:681 (1,2,3,4) - ), because stacking is a design choice. perfect stacks (0.0x distance snap) are not even mentined as distance issue on aimod, even if you stack notes with different rhythm in the same stack.
you didn't really mention 1/6's or 1/3's but this is what came to my mind, because i don't have any 1/2 notes placed this way, the closest we get of a 1/2 having that small distance is 04:14:226 (1,2,3,4) - but it's a slow part, and the objects are not even touching, so yeah, they are different enough. also this part of the song is kinda jumpy, so objects that are placed that close should be expected to be 1/4's imo.)

aesthetics:
01:33:317 (2,1) - might consider removing the overlap. the easiest way to make the map look clean is to make sure that the visual distance between active/fading out objects is equal, if you cant avoid 2 objects overlapping each other - the best option is to make them blanketing/paralleling/stacking on each other. (unlike the old (OOOOLD) default skin, the current one behaves in a way that makes overlaps to not be a big deal at all. this overlap is really small, has about 1 second difference between the objects, and the note placement will change the focus of the player to other 4 spots before returning to the spot where the overlap happens.)
02:49:567 (6,4) - ^
02:54:226 (4,2) - ^
03:00:135 (2,2) - ^
03:41:272 (3,3) - ^
03:53:658 (4,2) - ^
05:14:226 (5,3) - ^
04:55:590 (2,2) - ^
05:28:772 (1,4) - ^
05:57:863 (7) - ^ (some overlaps might be avoidable, but i still don't think it's a big deal to keep them, as i said in the earlier reply, the OOOOLD skin (i didn't expain perfectly, it's not really the skin, but the actual way the old client used to handle the skins behavior, not only the default skin, i think) didn't handle overlaps like the current skin, so they really should be considered bad things in the past, since they really could look bad and certainly affected negatively the gameplay . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtzoWDfFiZI this is not the old default skin but this is how the overlaps used to be in the past (the hitbursts stay in front of the next objects), people did complain about overlaps in the past just the same way as you are doing now, but still a lot of maps got ranked with overlaps. what i'm saying is that nowadays we have a default skin (and client) that handles overlaps much better than in the past so there is no need to worry about overlaps that much.
apparently, osu!laser will handle overlaps even better by fading the slider bodies as we progress...
let's not forget that many users plays with their own skins nowadays, and they usually include a invisible 300 hitburst.)
02:02:408 - nc maybe? its a different sound measure (it's still the same instrument as the previous notes)
03:36:953 - ^
03:51:499 (4) - ^
04:36:953 (4) - ^
04:51:499 (3) - ^
05:36:044 (6) - ^
04:46:044 - white combo? you havent used it before. so as i can assume, its used for vocals-only 05:08:544 (1) - like this? however 05:16:044 (1) - here are the beats. ( the beats just land on the exact same spots as those back vocals. yes you are right, i use white combo specifically for back vocals. don't forget that the beats are present in the whole song, but only a few parts has back vocals that stands out enough.)
04:56:044 (1,2,3,4) - imo, you can make them more precise: (your version looks okay too but mines is more fitting to old style mapping imo. what i mean is that this sharp curve makes it clear that it was made using the new slider algorithm that makes perfect slider curves. yeah we did have perfect slider curves like yours but they were more difficult to do with bezier sliders, so a lot of people were stubborn on improving slider shapes... i don't think my version is bad and i think it's more fitting to the general design.)

overall it plays nice, a bit too slow for me but w/e i guess. the ideas youre pushing are interesting, however the way they were executed is kinda poor. maybe ill become a bn soon so you can consider me for further help.

gl!

thanks for the feedback

Last edited by pimp 2018-02-16T10:27:37+00:00, edited 35 times in total.

hi-mei

784 posts

Joined June 2014

hi-mei 2018-01-05T19:43:37+00:00

https://osu.ppy.sh/u/3265023 - check his profile for custom hitsound library.

as far as I can see, youre completely denying many of the current standards of mapping.

well its your choice so i cant really do much at this point. this map could be top notch like 4-5 years ago, however nowadays people are making stuff more strictly (i.e. beats shud be clickable, new flow/rhythm/instrument/sound phrase shud be indicated with nc... etc.)

ehh im not saying its a bad map, im just from different generation of mappers, so from my perspective it has lots of flaws.

well... I wish you luck anyways

pimp

1,417 posts

Joined April 2010

Topic Starter

pimp 2018-01-05T21:39:39+00:00

https://osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/Ranking_Criteria/osu!
https://osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/Ranking_Criteria

standards of mapping ^
anything else is own opinion/taste.

so far i failed to find enough BN's without this "new generation mentality" but i'm not in rush at all

thanks for your opinion
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

updated (tried to fix the position of the circle as i mentioned in the mod reply, not sure if it's good enough now).
more updates are planned, following feedback from some smart people who mentioned stuff that i consider reasonable.

i'm considering to change the name of the difficutly to "LUN4TICK" btw :3
jkjk

igorsprite

623 posts

Joined September 2015

igorsprite 2018-01-07T18:13:58+00:00

:^)

Himari Kino

324 posts

Joined June 2015

Himari Kino 2018-01-17T03:17:59+00:00

Nice

pimp

1,417 posts

Joined April 2010

Topic Starter

pimp 2018-01-31T21:45:48+00:00

please re-download if you downloaded before February 8, 2018
added some skin elements and audio files

more updates planned
i will be back

bossandy

osu! Alumni

1,665 posts

Joined May 2010

bossandy 2018-02-09T14:18:43+00:00

GO GO! Fighting!! <3

pimp

1,417 posts

Joined April 2010

Topic Starter

pimp 2018-02-10T03:58:13+00:00

I got this, boss

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

please delete the current version of the map and re-download
modified some skin elements and audio files in February 11, 2018

i might try to improve the skin a bit more, but i already finished the updates i mentioned earier (will ask some people to take a look)

update includes:

making the hitsounding to be more compatible for people that plays with their own skin's hitsounds when they enable the "ignore beatmap hitsounds" option, as suggested by Naotoshi and hi-mei (keep in mind that not disabling the hitsounds will still provide the best hitsounding experience, just like in any other beatmap with custom hitsounds).
making the custom slider tick hitsounding to be used more often, to make it a "general style to this map" as suggested by ????????????
the slider ticks are no longer silenced with muted slidertick files. (neonat complained about this a few months ago)
^ spots that have no sound in the music but have slider ticks now have the volume reduced with green lines (as suggested by Chewin)

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/475154
^ slider tick rate 4 ranked nov 2017, because regardless of being fitting to the song or not, it was necessary for the beatmap

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/696607
^ slider tick rate 4 ranked feb 2018, i'm glad that my friend was successful getting his map qualified, he liked what i did with slider tick rate 4 so he wanted to try on his mapping.

TheKingHenry

1,666 posts

Joined October 2014

TheKingHenry 2018-02-15T09:26:17+00:00

Me when seeing this thread

Anyways check of sorts/M4M from my queue or something

Okay so first of all I see you haven't really changed (atleast a lot) of the point I said to you about the doubles few months ago, see for example this post. It's not really major problem, but it doesn't still make sense to have the pattern used become easier during the course of the song when the logical progression would be the reverse.

Most of my concerns were pretty much in the mod I did back then (maybe lil' more input now). But then as for this slidertick discussion and all this jazz. Not really anything new to say here, pretty much everything is said but at this point it's more of giving in more opinions to see what the consensus is. Maybe.

Kisses wrote:
It's not about the tickrate specifically it's about the hitsounding, for me anyways

For me it's more like this as well. What I mean is that the hitsounds you've used with the slidertick hitsounds (for most part) are very dominant hitsounds in the soundscape that you've otherwise used. Basically what has been said before too, if you think the sounds warrant such strong hitsound, why haven't you mapped them instead? Or if you don't think they aren't important enough to be mapped, why is the hitsound for them so loud? You need to prioritize what you want to emphasise. If you want everything, one option is to map them. If you want to have everything but map only some of the rhythms, you need to prioritize the emphasis on the parts you want to map. This doesn't mean you should get rid of your additional hitsounding on sliderticks, but you can't have the parts not played/clicked sounding dominant compared to the ones played. It's not like it currently results in terrible playability (as can be seen from your testplay posts) but it still confuses at many parts (atleast me) so it could be better. The constant beat slidertick hitsound blends in better and causes less problems, but stuff like 01:45:135 (3) - works worse (and there's like no reason to have slider like that when kickslider actually captures the hitsounded rhythm and plays pretty much the same). Basically, if you want to keep the idea as is, lower the hitsound volume of the slidertick hitsounds or something similar.

So TLDR: I have nothing against this idea you've used if you really want it, but imo the execution of your idea could be done better. So basically as it seems that you're dead on having this and there's apparently nothing objectively against it, I think it's better if we tried tuning the idea to create the best possible result instead of trying to bash it's existence.

TheKingHenry

1,666 posts

Joined October 2014

TheKingHenry 2018-02-15T14:11:17+00:00

So had some lengthy discussion in-game. Some things got changed, some might get changed, some might not. We shall see

Massive ass chat log for those interested in wasting their time reading pointless debate lul

13:29 pimpG: hi
13:29 TheKingHenry: yo
13:30 pimpG: thanks for checking my map again, and i'm sorry for the impression you have of my thread
13:31 TheKingHenry: no problem, stuff like that happens
13:31 pimpG: if i don't defend my map and gatekeep the thread, no one else will
13:31 pimpG: but anyway
13:31 pimpG: ppl seems to hate me less during in game discussions...
13:31 pimpG: what should we discuss about your initial mod?
13:32 TheKingHenry: its because things are private and you can always explain it more during the discussion here
13:32 pimpG: only the doubles?
13:32 TheKingHenry: but wiht forum post you have to be strict and get your point through once
13:32 TheKingHenry: and its public
13:32 TheKingHenry: anyways
13:32 TheKingHenry: well my initial mod hm
13:32 TheKingHenry: there are actually quite few things id like a good reasoning for
13:32 TheKingHenry: gimme sec ill find my mod and your map
13:33 pimpG: did you delete and redownload?
13:33 pimpG: changed a lot of files since your mod
13:33 TheKingHenry: yeah i did
13:33 TheKingHenry: latest redownload date seemed like feb 11 lol
13:33 TheKingHenry: so yeah
13:34 pimpG: yup
13:35 TheKingHenry: my stuff on my old mod was mostly some quite light stuff except for the topics of the present day discussion
13:35 TheKingHenry: stuff like NCing according to music or patterns doesnt really sink this boat
13:35 TheKingHenry: though id like some good reasoning if you do that on blue ticks like i mentioned there
13:36 pimpG: ncs?
13:38 TheKingHenry: comboin
13:38 TheKingHenry: like stuff like 03:50:590 (6,1,2) - 
13:39 pimpG: most of my mapping is vocal based
13:39 TheKingHenry: ya
13:39 pimpG: this 6 was the last part of the vocal
13:39 TheKingHenry: thus NC 03:51:044 (2) - instead
13:39 pimpG: only the slider end is part of the instruments
13:39 TheKingHenry: NC is always structuring emphasis or sorts
13:39 TheKingHenry: and since blue ticks are almost never the important ones in that sense
13:40 TheKingHenry: they shouldnt be the one to be NCd
13:40 TheKingHenry: when talking about triples, the important note is always either the first or last
13:41 TheKingHenry: or whne its tagged along some other object it can switch according to it like here it would be with hte sldier
13:41 pimpG: the blue tick just happens to be the next note after the last part i considered to keep the last combo
13:41 pimpG: the blue tick definitely don't belong in the previous combo
13:42 TheKingHenry: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
13:42 TheKingHenry: as for next what i had in mind
13:42 TheKingHenry: oh yeah it wasnt this but now that i stumbled upon it
13:42 TheKingHenry: 01:08:317 (4) - 
13:42 TheKingHenry: you said there was 1/3 here with some instrument
13:43 TheKingHenry: mind elaborating since i dont hear it
13:43 pimpG: 01:07:863 (3) - seems to be the same instrument as this note is following
13:43 pimpG: the volume is very low
13:44 TheKingHenry: the backing orchestration string?
13:44 TheKingHenry: thats 1/2 too though
13:44 pimpG: but i can tell it is there, as a timing checker
13:44 TheKingHenry: sounds like 1/3 with 100%
13:44 TheKingHenry: maybe lil
13:45 pimpG: if it sounds like 1/3 is because it is 1/3
13:45 pimpG: to me it lines up with the 1/3's even at 25% playback rate
13:45 TheKingHenry: uh if it sounds like 1/3 in 100% its because of hte impression the music gives with all the other stuff goin on, not because its necessarily 1/2
13:45 TheKingHenry: well anyways thats not wat i was going to say about anyways
13:46 pimpG: the sound on the repeat is low
13:46 pimpG: the sound on the red tick is loud
13:46 pimpG: the sound on the slider end is low
13:47 pimpG: the sound on the blue tick after it is loud
13:47 pimpG: the sounds are definitely not on the same ticks
13:47 pimpG: 4 sounds 4 ticks
13:47 pimpG: 1/3's and 1/2's (and 1/4's)
13:48 TheKingHenry: if the 1/3 are so low and the others so loud why are you even mapping them? well that aside nexti  wanted to talk about the jumpstream
13:48 TheKingHenry: 01:41:385 (4,1) - 
13:48 TheKingHenry: thsi was what i mentioend in my mod
13:49 pimpG: the previous instrument is the same as the one i'm following in the 1/3's
13:49 pimpG: what is wrong with this, lets see
13:50 pimpG: 01:40:590 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) -
13:50 pimpG: the pitch of the sounds is lowering little by little
13:50 TheKingHenry: yeah this
13:50 TheKingHenry: ya
13:50 pimpG: the repeat is the lowest pitch
13:51 pimpG: slider with repeat *
13:51 pimpG: my mapping is not just about the more noticeable sounds / louder sounds
13:51 pimpG: i also take in consideration the pitch of the sounds
13:52 pimpG: i don't even know if this can be considered an old style tendency
13:53 TheKingHenry: okay so basically this isnt wrong in the sense of needing immediate removing
13:54 TheKingHenry: but its the only usage of jumpstreams in the map and how fitting it is in the difficulty can be debated
13:54 TheKingHenry: but at the same time
13:54 TheKingHenry: the sounds its basing on are actually fairly unique in the song as well
13:54 pimpG: it's the start of something
13:55 pimpG: it eventually gets more difficult
13:55 pimpG: 01:46:953 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) -
13:55 pimpG: and eventually
13:55 pimpG: 01:52:408 (1,2,3,4,5,6) -
13:55 pimpG: lower pitch = i usually make it easier
13:57 TheKingHenry: wew i cant find the thing i was looking for mmm
13:57 TheKingHenry: anyways
13:58 TheKingHenry: now for the doubles
13:58 TheKingHenry: do you know what i mean wiht them
13:58 TheKingHenry: i mean not doubles but what i said about them
13:59 pimpG: yes
13:59 pimpG: challenge progression
13:59 pimpG: just like any type of game
13:59 pimpG: gets more difficult as we progress
13:59 TheKingHenry: well sort of that too, but more so that the normal progression of songs intensity levels is forward too
13:59 TheKingHenry: so the last chorus is more intense than the first chorus
13:59 TheKingHenry: if they are of the same music
14:00 TheKingHenry: with no drastic differences in the actual sheet stuff
14:00 TheKingHenry: so thus its reversed to map the doubles so that the hardest ones are in the beginning
14:00 TheKingHenry: its easy to change them anyways so i see no reason not to
14:01 pimpG: i tried to replace the beginning doubles for the pattern with slider
14:01 pimpG: didn't liked the result
14:01 pimpG: i mean i failed to make it work
14:02 TheKingHenry: how so lol, just act like reversed slider convert tool and bam its ready
14:02 TheKingHenry: that being said with low bpm like this
14:02 pimpG: what is this tool?
14:02 TheKingHenry: i dont think the whole slider version of the doubles are even necessary and id rather just utilize the ones with atleast somne circle
14:03 TheKingHenry: i mean slider convert to stream, so if youd use that to the slider version of doubles youd have ready double pattern with circles
14:03 TheKingHenry: so just do it reversed (there aint tool for that though)
14:04 pimpG: you want me to just use the x and y and replace the sliders for circles?
14:04 TheKingHenry: that way it goes with the tool too
14:05 TheKingHenry: ctrl+shift+f
14:05 TheKingHenry: but from circles to sliders youd need to manually tune it to line
14:05 pimpG: oh
14:05 pimpG: btw
14:06 pimpG: i found one example of the nc thing
14:06 TheKingHenry: blue tick thingy or what?
14:06 pimpG: yes
14:06 pimpG: 03:35:817 (5,1,2,3) - this is the ideal nc'ing for that parts in the kiais
14:06 pimpG: imo
14:06 pimpG: the long white tick being the last relevant vocal
14:07 TheKingHenry: i mean yeah thats good one if you are going for the vocal / instrumentalisation separation with NC
14:07 pimpG: that's what i do
14:07 pimpG: i just didn't map the other parts like that so it wouldn't be possible
14:07 TheKingHenry: you see what i mean here now? the middle one of the triple still isnt the important one since when the opportunity is htere you did it differently
14:08 TheKingHenry: that being said how to take the vocal parts when begins when ends is kinda meh too
14:08 pimpG: look at it this way
14:08 TheKingHenry: since basically teh vocal continues on for like 4 beats
14:09 pimpG: the ideal place to stop the vocal is the long white tick, the closest i got to do this for the other parts are half beat earlier or half beat later
14:10 pimpG: half beat earlier = not gonna happen
14:10 pimpG: no one wants that i think
14:10 pimpG: i can't have a nc on a slider end
14:11 pimpG: the vocal is not relevant after the long white tick
14:11 TheKingHenry: half beat earlier at 03:36:044 - would be like my to-go ideal patterning according to music
14:11 TheKingHenry: lul
14:11 TheKingHenry: anyways
14:11 TheKingHenry: due the longevity of the vocal options like NCing as late as 03:36:953 (5) - isnt really wrong eiother
14:11 TheKingHenry: but anyways ill leave this to you since arguments about NCs and similar are tedious
14:12 pimpG: i'm not mapping vocals after the long white tick
14:12 TheKingHenry: NCing doesnt mean mapping, its how you structure your mapping
14:12 pimpG: sure
14:12 TheKingHenry: anyways that aside for the doubles
14:13 TheKingHenry: what i said earlier about the whole slider pattern
14:13 TheKingHenry: if you remove the usage of that
14:13 TheKingHenry: it becomes more lenient on what you use imo
14:13 TheKingHenry: since the rest mostly utilize the clicking of the doubles in similar way
14:14 TheKingHenry: 03:47:863 (2,3,4,5) - and 01:58:772 (1,2,3,4,5) - work very similarly
14:14 TheKingHenry: and
14:14 TheKingHenry: 03:33:317 (1,2,3) - is little easier
14:14 pimpG: you mentioned earlier that the nc could be used later?
14:14 TheKingHenry: yeah sec i finish my thought here
14:14 TheKingHenry: so for the usage id do 03:33:317 (1,2,3) - for the first occasion of the rhythm
14:14 TheKingHenry: and after that more free usage
14:15 TheKingHenry: but with the circles only one in the last kiai
14:15 TheKingHenry: now for the NC
14:15 TheKingHenry: yes i think it coulbe done as a latter one too?
14:15 pimpG: on the stream?
14:15 TheKingHenry: like hold up sec
14:15 TheKingHenry: for this for example
14:15 TheKingHenry: 03:34:226 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14) - 
14:15 TheKingHenry: it could also be possible to NC03:36:953 (10) - 
14:16 TheKingHenry: when the current one is
14:16 TheKingHenry: 03:36:272 (6) - 
14:16 TheKingHenry: to similar relative places the replacing NC would be
14:16 TheKingHenry: 02:02:408 (5) - 
14:17 TheKingHenry: 02:16:953 (4) - 
14:17 TheKingHenry: 03:51:499 (4) - 
14:17 pimpG: so basically move the nc to the streams
14:17 pimpG: seems ok i think
14:17 TheKingHenry: yeah basically, thatd be fine too
14:18 pimpG: consider it done for now
14:18 TheKingHenry: k
14:19 TheKingHenry: now that we are talking NCs, also mentioned that solo section in the in my mod
14:19 TheKingHenry: its already consisting of a lot of difficult rhythms for this level of difficulty so id like you to improve the structuring with the NCs, since currently theres a lot of slack
14:20 pimpG: ??
14:20 TheKingHenry: uh like
14:20 pimpG: wait are you saying that my rhythm is difficult for an insane?
14:21 TheKingHenry: well that could be said too but its irrelevant isnce its approval map, we dont need to take spread progression into accord
14:21 TheKingHenry: its a fact it contains lot of rhythms not normally on this SR diff but its due low bpm not rising the rating
14:21 TheKingHenry: and it doesnt matter
14:21 TheKingHenry: what i mean that sicne there are difficult rhythms in the song that are mapped in the map
14:22 TheKingHenry: itd be beneficial to make the NCing solid since that helps players grasp the song better
14:22 pimpG: i honestly don't see my NC patterns as not solid
14:23 TheKingHenry: on some occasions it woudlnt hurt to slightly change the way youve mapped the rhythms too as in for sliderend placements and such
14:23 pimpG: where do you think it could be improved?
14:23 TheKingHenry: anyways okay lemme give examples
14:23 TheKingHenry: so we talkin bout this section from 04:59:681 - onwards
14:24 TheKingHenry: okay so the main reason this could be improved is
14:24 TheKingHenry: because it feels like its neither following the downbeats of the oveerall music nor the gimmicks of the flute but rather trying to utilize both
14:24 TheKingHenry: which is why it can get messy
14:25 TheKingHenry: from the beginning, see 04:59:681 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - for now
14:26 pimpG: the flute is the main instrument i followed
14:26 TheKingHenry: 05:01:499 (8,1) - is done according to the flute ending a phrase and going out (done with NCing the going out not the downbeated last flute -> flute gimmicks)
14:26 TheKingHenry: now then the next one
14:26 TheKingHenry: 05:02:863 (4,1) - 
14:26 TheKingHenry: pretty much shatters it
14:26 TheKingHenry: since for this one, both the flute gimmicks and musical downbeat lead towards the same tick
14:26 TheKingHenry: that is 05:03:317 (2) - 
14:27 TheKingHenry: ignoring that and going onwards
14:27 TheKingHenry: 05:03:658 (3,1) - is like the first one, NC change when flute dies out
14:27 TheKingHenry: 05:05:817 (9,10) - is the real problem for the flute follwoing though, since its obviously when the flute comes back in but its not followed
14:27 TheKingHenry: also happens to position on downbeat of sorts
14:28 TheKingHenry: then at 05:06:953 (3,1,2) - 05:07:408 (1) - is NCd even though according to NCing with the flute dying out 05:07:635 (2) - should be the NC
14:28 TheKingHenry: thats now first few secs of this section
14:28 TheKingHenry: you see what i mean
14:28 TheKingHenry: ?
14:29 pimpG: i think so
14:29 pimpG: the nc'ing is not accurate as it could be
14:30 TheKingHenry: id rather NC it according to musical downbeats since not only does the flute line up with them quite often, the gimmciks that do not are often still leading towards them
14:30 pimpG: and the reason is that the mapping was not made thinking on the new combo usage
14:30 TheKingHenry: and flute gimmicks arent too reliable source to structure around anyways
14:30 TheKingHenry: yeah i see that
14:31 TheKingHenry: since for example sliders like 05:04:908 (5) - are terrifying in terms of NCing haha
14:31 pimpG: yup
14:31 TheKingHenry: well you can probably tune that using this discussion as advice here
14:31 pimpG: those got me thinking
14:32 TheKingHenry: any questions now?
14:32 pimpG: hmm
14:33 pimpG: do you have a consistent nc pattern for this parts?
14:33 pimpG: that actually makes sense
14:33 pimpG: cause i'm not gonna remap just because of nc
14:33 TheKingHenry: hm
14:33 TheKingHenry: lemme see
14:33 pimpG: 05:06:158 (10) - this for example contradicts with what i said earlier
14:33 TheKingHenry: due some of the sliders it might need some artistic shiz
14:34 TheKingHenry: okay so if we first remove all NCs and ill begin linking new ones in a way that it could for example be done
14:34 pimpG: said earlier about using nc on blue ticks since it's the nearest object after the ideal nc spot
14:34 TheKingHenry: yeah
14:35 TheKingHenry: well thats with 05:04:908 (5,9) - 
14:35 pimpG: cause it would make this part look bad
14:35 TheKingHenry: and they are one sliders id change sothat the ends are clicked
14:35 TheKingHenry: anyways going on with the NCin
14:35 TheKingHenry: obvious 04:59:681 (1) - 
14:35 TheKingHenry: 05:01:499 (8) - 
14:36 TheKingHenry: 05:03:317 (2) - 
14:36 TheKingHenry: next would be the sliderend of05:04:908 (5) - 
14:36 TheKingHenry: then 05:06:953 (3) - 
14:36 TheKingHenry: 05:08:544 (1) - 
14:36 pimpG: main beat nc'ing
14:37 TheKingHenry: 05:10:590 (1) - 
14:37 TheKingHenry: 05:12:408 (1) - 
14:37 TheKingHenry: i mean yeah its mostly main beat NCing since not only is it the most clear way to NC, most of the time the music lines up according to it too
14:37 TheKingHenry: so does the solo here too
14:37 TheKingHenry: with just occasional variation
14:38 TheKingHenry: 05:14:226 (5) - 
14:38 TheKingHenry: 05:16:044 (1) - 
14:38 TheKingHenry: 05:17:863 (2) - 
14:38 TheKingHenry: 05:19:681 (7) - 
14:38 TheKingHenry: 05:21:499 (3) - 
14:38 TheKingHenry: btw as for 05:23:317 (1,2,3) - 
14:38 TheKingHenry: id change it little so its more clear what rhythm it is
14:39 TheKingHenry: visual distance aside the DS from the sliderends to sliderheads is pretty much the same as with the sliders before, it wouldnt hurt to use little more differentiation
14:39 TheKingHenry: 05:23:317 (1) - is the next NC actually
14:39 TheKingHenry: 05:28:772 (1) - 
14:39 TheKingHenry: 05:30:590 (2) - 
14:40 TheKingHenry: 05:30:590 (2) - id cut the last repeat from this and map the sounds
14:40 TheKingHenry: then NC the downbeat at
14:40 TheKingHenry: 05:31:953 - 
14:40 TheKingHenry: oopsie no
14:40 TheKingHenry: 05:32:408 (3) - 
14:41 TheKingHenry: 05:33:999 (3) 
14:42 TheKingHenry: 05:39:681 (2) - id NC this but due the spinner fuck up 05:38:999 (1) - is fine so its not alone in its own combo
14:42 TheKingHenry: 05:41:499 (3) - 
14:42 TheKingHenry: 05:43:317 (1) - 
14:42 TheKingHenry: 05:46:953 (5) - 
14:43 TheKingHenry: 05:48:544 (1) - 
14:43 TheKingHenry: 05:50:590 (4) - 
14:43 TheKingHenry: 05:52:408 (1) - 
14:43 TheKingHenry: 05:54:226 (1) - 
14:44 TheKingHenry: 05:56:044 (1) - (NCing additionally 05:55:135 (1) - is fine liek the current is)
14:44 TheKingHenry: so yeah thats basically what id do with these current rhythms
14:44 TheKingHenry: and how they are mapped
14:44 TheKingHenry: pretty simple way of doing it as you saw
14:44 pimpG: yup
14:45 TheKingHenry: also as you can see theres quiet few links with (1) already so not like its complete mess
14:45 TheKingHenry: quite*
14:46 pimpG: the thing is, this is the most freestyle part of the song
14:46 TheKingHenry: the more important it is to structure it so that the player keeps up with it
14:46 pimpG: my new combo usage during the whole map couldn't be consistent
14:46 TheKingHenry: thats true
14:46 TheKingHenry: well depends actualy
14:47 pimpG: this is because of my mapping style/other things
14:47 pimpG: the 1st half of your nc suggestions seemed agreeable
14:48 pimpG: but the 2nd certainly not (for me)
14:48 TheKingHenry: you mean parts of the map or parts of the suggestion
14:48 TheKingHenry: i didnt think i made 2 part suggestion
14:48 pimpG: your timestamps
14:48 TheKingHenry: fine for what part and not fine for what part
14:49 pimpG: i mean you suggested like 20 nc changes
14:49 pimpG: most of the earlier 10 seemed agreeable
14:49 pimpG: the later 10 not much
14:49 TheKingHenry: hm
14:49 TheKingHenry: okay
14:50 TheKingHenry: anything you want to add or do we move onto the slidertick hitsound stuff?
14:50 pimpG: 05:01:499 (8) - i mean the mapping is following the flute
14:51 pimpG: it very clear because of the way i map
14:51 TheKingHenry: yeah obviously, its flute solo so its clear you are mapping flute
14:51 TheKingHenry: as for how you structure the way you map the flute is another thing
14:52 TheKingHenry: one way of structuring being NCing here
14:52 pimpG: object is another instrument
14:52 TheKingHenry: so like i said in the beginning, either map it along musical downbeats how you can (mostly like you linked the stuff) or flute for how it fits
14:52 TheKingHenry: but be consistent
14:52 TheKingHenry: and problem here is that the flute in the music isnt consistent
14:53 TheKingHenry: so following the musical line with NCing is immediately more consistent thatn flute
14:53 TheKingHenry: independent on whether you want to map flute or not
14:53 TheKingHenry: but anyways no matter what you do with this, make the NCing be consistent with the logic you use so player understands the structure better too
14:54 pimpG: the usage of new combos can be done differently depending on the way it was mapped
14:54 pimpG: my mapping is not very compatible with common new combo logic
14:54 pimpG: because this song in particular made me nc this way
14:55 TheKingHenry: i mean yeah im fine with what you wanted to do, but since it seems like you could improve the way you executed what you did i gave couple advice on how it could be done
14:56 TheKingHenry: basically, no matter how you wanted to do it, the song isnt as inconsistent as your NCing and thats why i recommended a cleanup
14:56 TheKingHenry: thats how i see it here
14:56 TheKingHenry: NCing is easy change anyways so you can just mess with it to see what seems to work best
14:56 pimpG: i do realised that my new combos were going to be complained when i made them, but i honestly don't believe that trying to use a less unusual new combo pattern would benefit the map enough to make consider it to make rhythmical sense
14:57 pimpG: less rhythmical sense*
14:57 TheKingHenry: then what benefit does the current NC give to you? you jsut said the NC clean up would help it make more rhythmical sense, so is there something more worth with the current one?
14:57 TheKingHenry: ohlol
14:58 pimpG: i mean my nc'ing makes more sense right now, it's the closest i could get to fit the rhythm i mapped
14:59 TheKingHenry: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
14:59 TheKingHenry: so anything else or do we now move on to the next topic?
14:59 pimpG: my new combos make more sense to the way i mapped/the song i chose to map
15:00 pimpG: well, i'm happy with my new combos, i'm supposed to make other people agree with me
15:01 pimpG: i'm fine with moving to the next anyway
15:01 TheKingHenry: allright so lets move on to the slidertick hitsounds then, which seemed to be the uproar in the thread
15:01 TheKingHenry: okay so first of all did you read my post yet
15:01 TheKingHenry: i mean atleast you saw it since youre here now
15:01 pimpG: yup
15:02 TheKingHenry: thoughts?
15:04 pimpG: nothing in particular, just that you don't consider slider ticks as relevant as circles/slider ends/repeats
15:04 pimpG: but you seem to be one of the good guys
15:05 pimpG: so, what do you think about slider ticks vs the other hit-able objects?
15:05 TheKingHenry: okay so first of all, both are hitsounds, and their purpose is to give feedback for player's actions
15:06 TheKingHenry: the main difference is that the objects that are hit give active feedback and sliderticks (and sliders) give passive feedback
15:06 TheKingHenry: well you know all this
15:06 TheKingHenry: so thus
15:06 pimpG: yeah
15:06 TheKingHenry: sliderticks should not be more dominant than clickable object hitsounds
15:07 TheKingHenry: since they dont require similar active action to trigger them
15:08 TheKingHenry: note here that passive hitsounds are always related to active ones because to triggere them you need to go through the active hitsounds part
15:08 TheKingHenry: which is the lcicking object part
15:08 TheKingHenry: so this is just to demonstrate the importance order between them
15:08 TheKingHenry: now, the problem here is that the samples/volumes you use for teh slidertick hitsounds are so dominant that they get confused for active sounds
15:09 TheKingHenry: or if straight get confused, they confuse player for the position of the actual active sounds
15:09 TheKingHenry: and this was the problem
15:09 pimpG: k allow me to make a few comparissions
15:09 TheKingHenry: sure
15:10 pimpG: do you think it's fine for sliders to have the same type of hitsounds as circles?
15:11 pimpG: i mean start end or repeat
15:11 TheKingHenry: depends on what kind of sound they are used on in the music
15:11 TheKingHenry: most of the time id say the hitsound usage would be good to be smth like
15:12 TheKingHenry: circles = sliderheads > slider repeats = sliderends
15:12 TheKingHenry: with repeats and ends depending on what kind of sounds they cover
15:12 TheKingHenry: basically this order is according to the click
15:12 pimpG: so circles and slider heats are same tier
15:13 TheKingHenry: sort of, but as i said this kind of stuff also depends on where they are used
15:13 TheKingHenry: due sliders and circles often being used for different kind of sounds/places they arnet necessarily completely equal
15:13 TheKingHenry: same with repeat/end
15:14 pimpG: slider repeats and slider ends being on the same tier i suppose
15:14 TheKingHenry: similarly yeah, what i noted above
15:15 pimpG: well, in general, people seem to not have a problem with using the same type of hitsounds on circles slider start/repeat/end
15:15 TheKingHenry: well, dunno bout that since havent talked too much with ppl about that
15:16 pimpG: i take in consideration the hitsounding i see on ranked beatmaps
15:16 TheKingHenry: yeah
15:16 pimpG: if a slider end lands on a main beat, it will have the same hitsounds as if it was mapped as a circle or slider start/repeat
15:17 TheKingHenry: okay so this was one of my concerns here
15:17 TheKingHenry: not related to if the hitsound itself is okay or not
15:18 TheKingHenry: its more like problem of positioning it so that there is important sound on the sliderend
15:18 TheKingHenry: so instead of strong hitsound being in wrong place in the sliderend
15:18 TheKingHenry: its the sldierend being in wrong place where there should be strong sound
15:18 pimpG: imo, a slider tick is basically the same as a repeat or slider end, in terms of gameplay. you just need to hold and follow until you get there
15:18 TheKingHenry: its not though
15:19 TheKingHenry: if you simplify it to follow or not
15:19 TheKingHenry: sure
15:19 TheKingHenry: but lets think more about it
15:19 TheKingHenry: sliderslide or the follow here is simple
15:19 TheKingHenry: you follow and stuff goes well
15:19 TheKingHenry: but
15:19 pimpG: the only difference is where it goes, the repeat will make you go the oposite direction, the slider tick won't. the slider end is the slider end
15:20 TheKingHenry: i mean yeah, you just told there is difference
15:20 TheKingHenry: they arent similar
15:20 TheKingHenry: repeate forces movement change
15:20 TheKingHenry: this is the same reason for why very sharp slidershape can be used for emphasis even wihtout repeats
15:20 TheKingHenry: since they force similar kind of strong movement chage
15:20 pimpG: this movement change is not even relevant most of the times
15:21 TheKingHenry: following repeat in slider body ≠following sliderbody wihtout repeat
15:21 pimpG: since most of repeats on slider ends don't require you to move at all since the follow circle is big
15:21 TheKingHenry: repeated slider ≠ short kickslider
15:21 TheKingHenry: whatevdr glossary we want to use here
15:22 TheKingHenry: 05:16:044 (1) - you need to follow this stuff
15:22 pimpG: you will need to move anyway since you need to reach the slider end
15:23 pimpG: i doubt you can keep the combo if you just stay where you initially
15:23 pimpG: clicked
15:23 pimpG: regardless of the slider tick rate
15:23 TheKingHenry: ofc
15:23 TheKingHenry: depending on slider
15:23 pimpG: you will have a combo breat in the repeat if you don't follow
15:23 TheKingHenry: but idc about that dude, i dont need sermon about the slidertick now
15:23 pimpG: break
15:23 TheKingHenry: i wasnt going to talk about that
15:23 TheKingHenry: so before i sidetrack more now
15:24 TheKingHenry: two options for thsi thing
15:24 TheKingHenry: A. is just doing what people have requested with two variations: keep current rhythm or map the hitsounded rhythm
15:24 TheKingHenry: seems liek you wont do this
15:24 TheKingHenry: so
15:24 TheKingHenry: B
15:24 TheKingHenry: 3 points
15:25 TheKingHenry: or different categories of sorts
15:25 TheKingHenry: most of this can be done with just tuning what kidn of sounds you use for sliderticks
15:25 TheKingHenry: but anyways
15:25 TheKingHenry: 1.
15:26 TheKingHenry: the ones id definitely change. Here are ones where changing it would not only keep the current idea and soundscape you have, but have like no effect on how it works currently
15:27 TheKingHenry: also note that there are similar things done inconsistently and they get here
15:27 TheKingHenry: now lemme find some links
15:28 TheKingHenry: for example these
15:28 TheKingHenry: 01:48:772 (1) - 
15:29 pimpG: changing = reducing volume?
15:29 pimpG: or replacing the hitsound?
15:29 TheKingHenry: most of these can be done with either of those
15:29 TheKingHenry: though, this is one of the inconsistent ways of doing stuff
15:30 TheKingHenry: see 01:52:408 (1) - 
15:30 TheKingHenry: you havent done all of these with the hitsounded slider, so why even have them at all? the kickslider is better for this anyways since the emphasis of the slidertick hitsounds is not needed for constant bpm beat like with some others
15:30 TheKingHenry: this was example of the 1. category
15:31 TheKingHenry: now for the 2.
15:31 TheKingHenry: unnecessary long sliders with additional hitsounds located in the ticks due the length
15:32 TheKingHenry: probably prime example being 05:30:590 (2) - 
15:32 TheKingHenry: id recommend changing these rhythmically as well and not with hitsound changes, but that also depends on the object in question in this category
15:32 TheKingHenry: this one here would be better off shortened
15:32 TheKingHenry: but for example
15:32 pimpG: those are new hitsounds
15:32 TheKingHenry: ones like 01:14:908 (5) - 
15:33 pimpG: someone suggested me to make the slider tick hitsounding happen more often
15:33 TheKingHenry: with the constant beat applied to long sliders that emphasis something
15:33 pimpG: so it would be more acceptable
15:33 TheKingHenry: can just be tuned with lessening the feedback on ticks
15:33 TheKingHenry: thats something from category 2.
15:33 TheKingHenry: then for the last one, where the most probable solution would likely be hitsound tuning
15:34 TheKingHenry: so 3.
15:34 TheKingHenry: pretty much these dudes mostly
15:34 TheKingHenry: 01:17:294 (2) - 
15:34 TheKingHenry: since its obvious you want to capture the rhythm that is going on there but keep the beat on
15:34 TheKingHenry: you need to make the priorization
15:34 TheKingHenry: so tune down the unnecessarily large feedback from the mid-slider hitsounds
15:34 TheKingHenry: and tune up the active feedback from the object itself
15:35 TheKingHenry: thats about it for me, ill post this log and TLDR to your thread so you can address it the way you feel fit
15:36 pimpG: surely
15:36 pimpG: sorry for the discussion taking too long
15:36 TheKingHenry: no problem
15:36 TheKingHenry: hopefully i was of some help here

TLDR

Read the log if something doesn't make sense.

Two possible ways of perhaps solving this situation:

A.

Remove the slidertick hitsounds and the high slidertick rate. Basically what many have been asking in this thread. Then either
1. Keep the rhythms as is
or
2. Map the previously hitsounded rhythms (only the most important ones).

B.

Keep the sliderticks and hitsounds but tune them and things related to them to create better end result. In different categories depending on whether I think they should be changed rhythmically too or just tuning the way of the hitsounds:
1. The ones I think should be changed. This includes usages of the slidertick hitsounds that'd either work overall work better without, tuned down or when they are already inconsistent with other places mapped without. For example see 1/2 sliders with 1/4 triple hitsounds like 01:48:772 (1) - ; not only is the hitsounding emphasis different rhythm than mapped (like with many places) but it also doesn't line up with the constant beat-types of the slidertick hitsounding. And finally this similar place is done with casual kickslider too for example few seconds later at 01:52:408 (1) -
2. The ones I'd recommend changing. Mostly long sliders with slidertick hitsounded bpm beat. Whether changes would be better off with hitsounds or rhythms, depends. With the like of for example 01:23:999 (4) - or 01:29:453 (7) - with the constant beat, I think just tuning down the feedback of the sliderticks would be enough. With for example 05:30:590 (2) - though it'd be just better off shortening the slider and mapping the rhythms instead. They aren't constant beat so if you consider them strong enough to have them hitsounded, map them instead (or remove the hitsounds from these).
3. The ones with hitsound tuning. This basically mostly means these dudes 01:17:294 (2) - ; as in objects where you've prioritized doing some other rhythm but want to keep the constant beat with sliderticks. Since you've prioritized the rhythm of the slider, tune the hitsounds according to it. Feedback of the constant beat on the sliderticks is way too dominant compared to the actual points of the slider, and shouldn't be that way. Sliderticks down, others up.

And finally I'd also like to see you address the additional comments I made (and possibly other not-closed topics in this thread); the ones related to my old mod here and then the structuring of the last flute solo sections (we mainly talked about inconsistent NCs on it).

pimp

1,417 posts

Joined April 2010

Topic Starter

pimp 2018-02-15T18:37:42+00:00

i hope i didn't miss anything. this mod is kinda difficult to apply... will probably require a bit more of in-game discussion

Two possible ways of perhaps solving this situation:

A. (I don't want to remap, if i simply remove the hitsounds then my map will have very inconsistent hitsounding)

Remove the slidertick hitsounds and the high slidertick rate. Basically what many have been asking in this thread. Then either
1. Keep the rhythms as is
or
2. Map the previously hitsounded rhythms (only the most important ones).

B. (seems reasonable to some extent. made many adjustments)

Keep the sliderticks and hitsounds but tune them and things related to them to create better end result. In different categories depending on whether I think they should be changed rhythmically too or just tuning the way of the hitsounds:
1. The ones I think should be changed. This includes usages of the slidertick hitsounds that'd either work overall work better without, tuned down or when they are already inconsistent with other places mapped without. For example see 1/2 sliders with 1/4 triple hitsounds like 01:48:772 (1) - ; not only is the hitsounding emphasis different rhythm than mapped (like with many places) but it also doesn't line up with the constant beat-types of the slidertick hitsounding. And finally this similar place is done with casual kickslider too for example few seconds later at 01:52:408 (1) -
2. The ones I'd recommend changing. Mostly long sliders with slidertick hitsounded bpm beat. Whether changes would be better off with hitsounds or rhythms, depends. With the like of for example 01:23:999 (4) - or 01:29:453 (7) - with the constant beat, I think just tuning down the feedback of the sliderticks would be enough. With for example 05:30:590 (2) - though it'd be just better off shortening the slider and mapping the rhythms instead. They aren't constant beat so if you consider them strong enough to have them hitsounded, map them instead (or remove the hitsounds from these).
3. The ones with hitsound tuning. This basically mostly means these dudes 01:17:294 (2) - ; as in objects where you've prioritized doing some other rhythm but want to keep the constant beat with sliderticks. Since you've prioritized the rhythm of the slider, tune the hitsounds according to it. Feedback of the constant beat on the sliderticks is way too dominant compared to the actual points of the slider, and shouldn't be that way. Sliderticks down, others up.

as i said before, the slider ticks are gameplay relevant because they have their own default hitsound (different default hitsounds for drum/soft/normal) just like a circle/sliderhead/repeat/tail, they affect the combo/score when you hit/miss them, the skill required to play a slider tick is exactly the same as required to play a slider repeat/end, or even a circle since you can also hit the slider tick exactly on time, they can be skinned and have their own setting.
so yeah, i don't think it's worth remapping any slider ticks since they are already gameplay relevant and i'm happy with the patterns i have.

for now i updated and removed two slider tick hitsound files, changed the new combos I confirmed that I would change and reduced most of the slider ticks volumes

now i have very few custom hitsounds on blue ticks and red ticks, only the ones I really considered essential are loud enough to be noticeable in-game, the unecessary slider ticks are muted again, but with green lines. I think this will work for what you suggested as "The ones I think should be changed"

reduced the volume of the white tick hitsounds, they are still very noticeable, but less than most of the circles and sliders starts/repeats/ends. As for the things related to the hitsounded ticks, i can't really reduce the volume of all white ticks mapped as circles/sliderstart/end/repeats because this is probably 60% of the map. I think this will work for what you suggested as "The ones I'd recommend changing" and "The ones with hitsound tuning"

at this point I think I will just roll back to the previous version of my map (has identical note placement the only difference is that the previous version has much less slider tick hitsounds, like less than 40% of the current version)

i tried to think of a way to adjust the doubles to what you suggested but the results still doesn't pleases me. i still suck at remapping (i've been a terrible re-mapper since my 1st map for rank from 2012), willing to check suggestions

the 1/3 will stay as it is, they are not the loudest rhythm at that part of the song but they are the same instrument I followed the previous/next object and it plays almost like a kick slider with repeat, feels/sounds very natural imo, and I never seen anyone get a miss there.

05:16:044 (1) - 05:30:590 (2) - these sliders are not going to be remapped, they are supposed to follow the vocals that lands on the white ticks, they already do that and the slider tick hitsounds were just there because the current (actually previous) version of the map was made to have a lot more slider tick sounds so i simply added them because it was possible. now i don't have any custom slider ticks on these sliders, they were very optional.

as i said before, half of conventional new combo pattern we discussed earlier seemed to work decently for the end of the song but it was getting less and less fitting as we progress, because the way i map requires me to take a lot of things in consideration when NC'ing and applying suggestions, for example 05:04:453 (2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) - I can't move these objects one pixel because of the symmetry they create, also can't use new combos on the last slider that starts the next rhythm because the symmetry would look dumb with a new combo there and the next circle with a new combo would look weird since it's stacked and distant in timing/placement to the next object.
05:01:953 (1) - this sound for example seems way more important than the one on the previous main beat, I see no problem in keeping the new combo on it.
Imo the ending of the song is kind of a solo for the flute and other instruments, there is not many main beats that actually stands out more than those instruments and back vocal.
my short combos, for example 05:52:181 (1) - and 05:53:772 (1,2) - are back vocals.
i use white combo only for back vocals.
some rhythms are not divided from the next rhythm because this would result on very short combos that really don't deserve that much attention, like 05:41:272 (1,2,3,4,5) -
05:09:226 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3) - this is split in two combos because the last slider is basically a copy of the previous, i want it to be seen this way.
05:54:226 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - this is the same rhythm but split in two combos because the way i mapped requires this.
so I decided to keep the new combos the way they are instead of trying a more conventional new combo'ing for the most inconsistent part of the song. we can still discuss some small tweaks.

for the structuring of the flute on the end of the song i don't really know what i could say, it is mostly freestyle mapping, maybe a bit out of my comfort zone but i think i did a decent job on this. the rhythm mapped is a bit unusual because the song is just like that. sometimes i tried to map specific shapes like mirrored symmetry 05:04:226 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10) - , or a more triangle based shape 05:01:953 (1,2,3,4,1) - , sometimes i tried something with no particular shape or specific type of flow like 05:06:385 (1,2,3,1,2,3,4) -.
04:59:681 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - this part is mostly pitch based, where the lower pitch goes lower on screen and louder pitch higher on the screen, the shape of the combo itself is not really important but i like it. same pitch based mapping for 05:03:090 (1,2,3) - and 05:11:499 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - but unfortunately pitch based placement is not always possible because of screen limitations, obviously.

and possibly other not-closed topics in this thread

I don't know what the other modders pointed that I could possibly address further, I did the best I could to explain stuff and I assumed everyone was satisfied with my replies... if they weren't satisfied with my replies then they shouldn't have back off from the discussion.
anything in particular that they mentioned that you want addressed further?

Last edited by pimp 2018-02-16T21:24:54+00:00, edited 1 time in total.

Jools

23 posts

Joined May 2012

Jools 2018-02-16T18:40:24+00:00

Hiya, thought I would do a wee playthrough of the map to see what I thought. I think it plays pretty nicely although confusing at times (which I'll put down to my rank of 79k~).

My play:

SPOILER

https://i.imgur.com/zHcGVRF.jpg

Also please note that I do have an interest in learning to map/mod however this is the first time I have ever tried to do so, so please take everything that I say with a grain of salt as it may not make any sense at all. It's a learning experience for me!

Lunatic (3,82 stars, 856 notes)

I think the skin is sort of confusing as sometimes I read a circle as the first repeat of a slider, this for example: 02:45:817 (3) - I saw the white bunny ear from the slider tail overlapping on to the head of 02:46:158 (4) - and it messed with my brain a little and told me it was a repeating slider. This however may be down to my skill as previously mentioned.
I know this has been mentioned but I'm not sure if I like the hitsounds that start at 00:57:863 (1) although this is just personal preference.

Two tiny little things but yeah, hope this helps?

pimp

1,417 posts

Joined April 2010

Topic Starter

pimp 2018-02-16T18:58:19+00:00

Jools wrote:
Hiya, thought I would do a wee playthrough of the map to see what I thought. I think it plays pretty nicely although confusing at times (which I'll put down to my rank of 79k~). (i'm around 78k )

My play:
SPOILER
https://i.imgur.com/zHcGVRF.jpg

hmm yeah i think that performance is appropriate for your actual rank. i usually do slightly better than that.

Also please note that I do have an interest in learning to map/mod however this is the first time I have ever tried to do so, so please take everything that I say with a grain of salt as it may not make any sense at all. It's a learning experience for me!
(we all started somewhere, glad you chose my map )

Lunatic (3,82 stars, 856 notes)
I think the skin is sort of confusing as sometimes I read a circle as the first repeat of a slider, this for example: 02:45:817 (3) - I saw the white bunny ear from the slider tail overlapping on to the head of 02:46:158 (4) - and it messed with my brain a little and told me it was a repeating slider. This however may be down to my skill as previously mentioned.
(they are to be seen as White Wolf Girl ears , yeah i see your point, it can happen indeed.
i hope it doesn't happens often cause i like the way this part is mapped and i also like the skin elements i added)
I know this has been mentioned but I'm not sure if I like the hitsounds that start at 00:57:863 (1) although this is just personal preference. (it's the best i could do , i think they are better like that than if it was with default hitsounds, i hope i can find better hitsound files before qualification)
Two tiny little things but yeah, hope this helps?

your post put a smile on my face so it certainly helped

looking forward to see you develop as a mapper

3L - Macrophylla Parasol

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