GaterRaider wrote:

monstrata ranked 42,9% of Hobbe2's maps. Gotta return some favors now that you're a BN, huh?

Genjuro wrote:

nice map, i like the concept used where the map is ugly to go with the ugly song, gl with rank

Akitoshi wrote:

What's This?

Xexxar wrote:

This isnt how this rule works. You're hopelessly below this maps difficulty and a brand new beatmap nominator. If you think you're exempt from this rule simply because the difficulty is "only jumps and high bpm" you're incorrect.

Reconsider your actions.

Ekoro wrote:

this should be nuked

Hobbes2 wrote:

This isn't actually true, lol. Community voice matters a lot. Monstrata did respond to everyone that had a specific concern, which is why I was confident in pushing this forward.

EDIT - Just want to point out that I don't want to involve myself in drama (I didn't bubble this map to start a fight, I did it because I think it deserves to be ranked) so I'm not going to respond to any posts that aren't relevant to the map itself from now.

Ekoro wrote:

this should be nuked

Kynan wrote:

Xexxar wrote:

This isnt how this rule works. You're hopelessly below this maps difficulty and a brand new beatmap nominator. If you think you're exempt from this rule simply because the difficulty is "only jumps and high bpm" you're incorrect.

Reconsider your actions.

Well fuck, this coming from a guy who speed ranks trash jump maps for the sole reason of being the highest SR TV size map out there (and you probably can't even clear your map as well), is painful to read.

MagicDragon wrote:

Clearly the only solution is to revoke every single BN's rights and start from scratch by giving BN permissions to all the salty 5 and 6 digit players who madpost about maps that give high PP while not being able to make a decent map themselves.

Hobbes2 wrote:

I'd respond with the fact that this map in itself isn't actually that complex. The difficulty itself comes from the high bpm + jumps more than anything. The play-ability concerns I had were addressed in my mod.

Gokateigo wrote:

I love you, finnally a good bn who does his job

Gokateigo wrote:

You're 96k, you have 4 pending tv size maps from 11 days ago, your opinion is shit, you have no experience in mapping

+we don't flame the map because of pp (I don't even know how much pp is this shit), it's just an unplayable shitmap with ugly patterns because "lol metal is disgusting anime is better so I'll shitmap this and push it to ranked because a lot of BNs suck my dick"

Kagetsu wrote:

hi

i'm vetoing this because i think it doesn't fit the ranked section, this map has proven to be unplayable while being in the loved section and it's pretty clear that even though people can pass it, its playability is far from being acceptable.
i do agree that the map concept is cool and i liked how you managed to structure your irregular shapes to represent the tougher sections of the music, but at the same time, i dislike how overdone the map is. you might be thinking that distance is subjective, and there's no limit to express the song intensity, which is in part true. what most of people would agree with, though, is that 280~ bpm full screen jumps aren't approachable even for the top part of the playerbase.

Hobbes2 wrote:

I'd respond with the fact that this map in itself isn't actually that complex. The difficulty itself comes from the high bpm + jumps more than anything. The play-ability concerns I had were addressed in my mod.

i find this argument really basic because everything can be treated as "jumps" or "streams" or whatever thing that comes to your mind. under those ways of thinking, we could promote 500 bpm streams as official content because it would be a very basic stream at 500 bpm (i'm obviously exaggerating for the sake of making the explanation clearer) maps are meant to be played after all.

nothing more to add i guess.

Realazy wrote:

you're 69k with 2 pending maps, don't act like you're even remotely good enough at mapping nor playing to be able to judge this

if it is so unplayable and shitty, how about you mod it or explain why you feel that way other than saying "it's ugly so it must be bad!!"

M a r v o l l o wrote:

I think everyone can make mistake, so imo Kagetsu should remove his veto because he didn't provide any really valid reason. Sad that I amn't a member of BNG, I would nominate this. And yeah, 800th post hooray

Naotoshi wrote:

uh. this argument is kind of strange and not really a valid reasoning imo.

consider that throughout osu's history, players have been constantly improving.
remember this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/1173 was once considered very difficult, and is now more or less trivial.
similarly, freedom dive was mapped under the premise of being impossible to pass, and here we are with numerous fcs on it.
a bit ago, ephemeralfetish attempted to rank the empress, an 8.78 star map which was also ridiculously hard to play, containing 270 bpm deathstreams; you supported it.
not to mention promethean kings like... exists. which is, as we can see from the leaderboard on that one, significantly harder than this map; one of the highest plays is a 65% acc pass done entirely by mashing.

aside from the fact that this argument has been proven again and again to be invalid in rankability, you didn't really suggest any solutions. should he just nerf the ending ("ending") jumps from being fullscreen? he's already done that, but are they not nerfed enough? is the concept of a high sr 280 bpm map inherently unrankable? please elaborate so he has the opportunity to respond rather than just being slammed into a brick wall that says "too hard, vetoed, bye."

1. Since osu! is completely community driven game, and QAT's functions are much less utilized, I believe that maps should follow the community's stuff.
   This map caused a lot of controversy, and after being passive for a while, people were alright with that. But even with that much spiked hate for the map (be it logical, or blind hate), you still go to rank this map, causing even more controversy and hate. Usually when a maps gets in a ranking state, everybody is happy with that, sometimes there's controversy like in HW maps, but it gets somewhat more agreement with mappers and players. This is complete chaos, we're not even close to understanding how much people are happy or mad with this map. Meaning I think monstrata you should chill out, and move on, even if it may look unjustified to you, that's how the world works against masses. So I think you should just let this map go, I don't see much accomplished by ranking this.
   
2. I usually like to say, if a mapper bases his map on overlaps, he can't simply get away with every possible overlap. Not every overlap is good, and sometimes its just too extreme. Similar thing I could say for this map, as you kinda term it as "ugly", which i could kinda agree on some sliders. If you say its based on that, that doesn't mean you can go with the ugliest sliders ever, but should be toned down a bit to have some aesthetic value over some "art" "song is going like that" stuff.
   
3. PS, I think the playability is fine, it follows logical patterns fitting the intensity of the song. Rhythm perfectly follows it, it's just the ugly sliders that i'm against of.

brain damage wrote:

my name is what im getting from you guys here

Gokateigo wrote:

I have a shit ton of non submitted maps and a few gds so stfu ?

brain damage wrote:

my name is what im getting from you guys here

MaridiuS wrote:

Random dude giving opinions, maybe more agree:

1. Since osu! is completely community driven game, and QAT's functions are much less utilized, I believe that maps should follow the community's stuff.
   This map caused a lot of controversy, and after being passive for a while, people were alright with that. But even with that much spiked hate for the map (be it logical, or blind hate), you still go to rank this map, causing even more controversy and hate. Usually when a maps gets in a ranking state, everybody is happy with that, sometimes there's controversy like in HW maps, but it gets somewhat more agreement with mappers and players. This is complete chaos, we're not even close to understanding how much people are happy or mad with this map. Meaning I think monstrata you should chill out, and move on, even if it may look unjustified to you, that's how the world works against masses. So I think you should just let this map go, I don't see much accomplished by ranking this.
   
2. I usually like to say, if a mapper bases his map on overlaps, he can't simply get away with every possible overlap. Not every overlap is good, and sometimes its just too extreme. Similar thing I could say for this map, as you kinda term it as "ugly", which i could kinda agree on some sliders. If you say its based on that, that doesn't mean you can go with the ugliest sliders ever, but should be toned down a bit to have some aesthetic value over some "art" "song is going like that" stuff.
   
3. PS, I think the playability is fine, it follows logical patterns fitting the intensity of the song. Rhythm perfectly follows it, it's just the ugly sliders that i'm against of.

Eraser wrote:

in other words: plz change your sliders to nice looking curves with blankets because fuck your core idea of this map!

Left wrote:

i hated this map before, but now i support this map lol

Mentai wrote:

Left wrote:

i hated this map before, but now i support this map lol

brain damage wrote:

my name is what im getting from you guys here

Gokateigo wrote:

This map sucks tbh, you shitmapped a huge part because you think metal is disgusting

Gokateigo wrote:

If you make a contrast with beautiful/ugly mapping you obviously think one part is ugly and the other one is beautiful, seems obvious. He can make a contrast with difficulty, like Mazzerin did with PK, it'll be way better than this

Gokateigo wrote:

He can make a contrast with difficulty, like Mazzerin

Linada wrote:

Gokateigo wrote:

He can make a contrast with difficulty, like Mazzerin

i know you love Mazzerin a lot but the mapper here is Monstrata and not Mazzerin, why would he map like him.

Gokateigo wrote:

If you make a contrast with beautiful/ugly mapping you obviously think one part is ugly and the other one is beautiful, seems obvious.

Gokateigo wrote:

my opinion

This map sucks tbh, you shitmapped a huge part because you think metal is disgusting, Mazzerin maps death metal and thinks song representation is more important than aesthetics. His maps are NOT ugly af, they are a bit ugly sometimes (with really ugly sounds, not everything) but his style fits very well to metal, you should map something similar to his style in the "ugly" part and map ugly sliders when they are in the middle of the calm part because you can't change your style for 2 objects. If you map something like this I'll bee happy if it's ranked, it's just a random shit map atm for me

Left wrote:

i hated this map before, but now i support this map lol

Sinnoh wrote:

why not just convert the map to ctb then rank and call it a day

M a r v o l l o wrote:

I think everyone can make mistake, so imo Kagetsu should remove his veto because he didn't provide any really valid reason. Sad that I amn't a member of BNG, I would nominate this. And yeah, 800th post hooray

Seni wrote:

You don't have to be a chef to know the dish is bad.

Monstrata wrote:

fufu- wrote:

00:38:356 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) no pLEASE bring back the old jumps these pentagons are so hard to play and snap to

I have a possible alternative in mind for it, i'll push a quick update tomorrow though after confirming with some players. I like how it plays currently because its arranged in a way where its possible for players to try alternating it instead of single tapping, but essentially the structure is set up to cause really fast counterclockwise flowing movements that break down into rotating/tornado based jumps afterwards.

Kagetsu wrote:

i'm vetoing this because i think it doesn't fit the ranked section, this map has proven to be unplayable while being in the loved section and it's pretty clear that even though people can pass it, its playability is far from being acceptable.

Qapitol wrote:

Hi guys, I'm just gonna leave this here.



DISCLAIMER I DONT ACTUALLY KNOW IF THIS IS UNRANKABLE I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT THAT THE FILE IS STRETCHED IN MULTIPLE PLACES.

pls no hate mnstrato ily

1. 00:28:922 (1,2,3,4) - this little square kinda kills the cursor speed built up previously and aesthetically feels out of place, I think an irregular shape with a bit more spacing (same movement is fine) would be better.
   
2. 00:32:760 (3) - I don't see much reason for this to be ctrl+Gd, this will be prone to confuse players causing a late hit, please keep in mind that with how the game works right now you need to hit this slider a bit early otherwise it will reach the first repeat and cause a sliderbreak even if it's within the hit window (first repeat is 54ms after the start so with this OD that means you'd break if you hit basically anything later than a 300).
   
3. 00:38:356 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4) - this doesn't fit at all imo, you theme almost all sliders "ugly" and with uneven spacings but this a "perfect shape", I think this comes from you being used to mapping like this (not saying it's a bad thing) but imo this pattern is out of place here, I'd personally go with something more in tone with the map's theme and difficulty, check this for an idea: https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/HotOpulentGosling And more importantly than aesthetics, using a cursor-snap-based small jump section is a great setup for the next big one here 00:40:385 (2) - your current pattern is based on constant circle movement so it doesn't transition very well.
   
4. 00:40:385 (2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4) - I think you could improve this flow to be less awkward but it's not terrible so I wont go into detail unless requested.
   
5. 01:01:258 (4,5,6,1) - this almost square-like flow is one of the most awkward in the whole map, this comes after a whole section of acute angled jumps, I think this can be improved, first thing that comes to mind would be 01:01:258 (4) - on x:163 y:326, 01:01:366 (5) - on x:319 y:233, 01:01:473 (6) - on x:30 y:189 and 01:01:580 (1) - a bit closer to 01:01:794 (3) - , the reduced spacing from 6 to 1 increses the emphasis of the back and forths making them more powerful.
   
6. 02:25:494 (1,2,3,4,5) - I disagree with this shape, aesthetics aside, I don't see how this would play better than angled jumps and they would fit better imo.

Gasai wrote:

If you're going to bubble or veto it, give good reasons that the mapper can actually consider and implement to make the map better and that 'better' being the 'better' in your opinion and not necessarily the thousands of people playing the game.

Gokateigo wrote:

Gasai wrote:

If you're going to bubble or veto it, give good reasons that the mapper can actually consider and implement to make the map better and that 'better' being the 'better' in your opinion and not necessarily the thousands of people playing the game.

osu! is a community based game, if a huge part the community doesn't like a map (obvious in this cse, seiously look at the user rating) the map shouldn't be ranked, especially when it uses such a controversial mapping

Monstrata wrote:

That said, lets await Kagetsu's reply now and give this thread a break. Thanks everyone for participating

Gokateigo wrote:

osu! is a community based game, if a huge part the community doesn't like a map (obvious in this cse, seiously look at the user rating) the map shouldn't be ranked, especially when it uses such a controversial mapping

1. 01:40:844 (2) - Overlapped by the HP bar with the default skin.
2. 01:58:499 (1) - Shouldn't be a normal finish?
3. 02:27:195 (1,2,3,4) - I really dislike how those kick sliders are overlapped by the previous ones. 1 also slightly overlaps 3 and 2 overlaps 4 as well. I understand you probably did that on purpose, but it's hardly sightreadable and more confusing than anything when you could have made it easier to read just like 02:28:885 (1,2,3,4) - .
4. 02:37:902 (2,3,4) - Slightly overlapped by the HP bar with the default skin.
5. 02:40:244 (2) - Slightly overlapped by the HP bar with the default skin.
6. 02:56:316 (1) - Slightly overlapped by the HP bar with the default skin.
7. 02:56:786 (1) - Slighlty overlapped by the score nulbers with the default skin.
8. 04:22:012 (2) - Almost under the HP bar grr

1. I really dislike when objects are put just next to the bottom border of the screen because 1. it's not that comfortable to play 2. it's sometime overlapped by the little accuracy bar. Here's a list of the objects placed way too close to the bottom border of the screen, moving them some grids up should do the trick, it's not like you have to care much about the aesthetics of the map xp:
   
   
   1. 00:51:250 (1) -
   2. 00:56:007 (3,5,1) -
   3. 00:59:022 (1) -
   4. 01:01:794 (3,5) -
   5. 01:31:862 (3) -
   6. 01:33:991 (1) -
   7. 01:35:058 (3) -
   8. 01:58:499 (1) -
   9. 04:45:311 (1) -

UndeadCapulet wrote:

this is sick

Liiraye wrote:

I love maps that go from really fast to really slow, especially towards the end.

Even though this is too hard for me to enjoy, I think arguing that the easy part would somehow arbitrarily make the map bad is silly. Having your only point being 6* would be better than 8* doesn't help much. That could go for ANY hard map out there, it doesn't say much about the map itself.

eeezzzeee wrote:

ya. i like the contrasting aesthetics of this map btw

bbj0920 wrote:

what the actual fuck is this

nice concept though

Pereira006 wrote:

we did make more ugly, Shame question where you from ?

irc

20:36 Pereira006: LET'S DO THUS
20:37 *Monstrata is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/978026 Maximum the Hormone - A-L-I-E-N [Stop! Stop Winny Upload!!]]
20:37 Monstrata: 8.5 stars lmaooo
20:37 Monstrata: ahahahah
20:40 Pereira006: 00:48:737 (2) - that ugly lol
20:40 Monstrata: xD
20:40 Monstrata: make it uglier?
20:41 Pereira006: yes like this 00:42:090 (3) -
20:41 Pereira006: pls
20:41 Monstrata: looool
20:41 Monstrata: oka
20:41 Monstrata: y
20:41 Monstrata: :DD
20:43 Monstrata: http://puu.sh/pzPLu.jpg
20:43 Monstrata: am i doing this right?!
20:43 Pereira006: GOOD JOB
20:43 Pereira006: 01:41:058 (3) - i suprise you didn't hat NC
20:43 Pereira006: WHY ?!"
20:44 Monstrata: oh
20:44 Monstrata: right
20:44 Monstrata: omg
20:44 Pereira006: TELL ME
20:44 Monstrata: do you think i should NC 01:41:272 (5) - too?
20:44 Monstrata: xD
20:44 Pereira006: 01:46:531 (2) - well BPM change is huge
20:44 Pereira006: NC ?
20:45 Pereira006: i don't know, there lot jump actually you don't NC
20:45 Pereira006: bu you can that NC
20:45 Pereira006: 01:49:654 (4) - ^ same NC
20:46 Monstrata: okay
20:46 Pereira006: well just saying missing NC
20:46 Pereira006: example 01:48:572 (1) orz
20:47 Monstrata: ya
20:47 Monstrata: its hard here cuz of all the bpm shifts
20:47 Pereira006: ya i know
20:48 Pereira006: i wonder other why didn't NC example 01:53:585 (2) -
20:48 Pereira006: but actually that is fit song ...
20:48 Pereira006: i don't know... i wonder other BN see that
20:48 Pereira006: or qat
20:48 Pereira006: OR LOCTAHV
20:51 Pereira006: lmo
20:53 Pereira006: that all
20:53 Monstrata: o lol okay gimme a sec
20:54 Monstrata: bonsai mention 04:37:266 (3) - is too early so im going to get a better offset reset
20:55 Pereira006: ayy
21:00 Monstrata: okay moved it to 04:37:276 -
21:00 Monstrata: +10 ms
21:00 Pereira006: ónly that ?
21:00 Monstrata: should be enough
21:00 Pereira006: ARE U REALYIDFSIFDGBSF SURE =!
21:00 Pereira006: ?!
21:01 Monstrata: and also 04:37:763 (1) -
21:01 Pereira006: lol
21:01 Monstrata: shifted offset for the "stop"
21:01 Monstrata: cuz i told pishifat i wanted to follow instruments
21:01 Monstrata: but i guess for those S T O P sliders i want to follow vocals
21:01 Pereira006: i don't you follow
21:01 Monstrata: the song's vocals and instruments are on different offsets so im just shifting them to vocal offset instead of instrument lol
21:01 Pereira006: but the bpm or offset
21:01 Pereira006: should be snap correct
21:02 Monstrata: yep
21:02 Pereira006: if there beat
21:02 Pereira006: then Beat > allthing
21:02 Pereira006: if no beat, only instrumental
21:02 Monstrata: well, it depends what you want to follow tho xD
21:02 Pereira006: then instrumental > all things
21:02 Monstrata: Vocal beat and Drum beat is like 10 ms different
21:02 Pereira006: ya i know
21:02 Pereira006: but is better if you put snap correct is beat
21:02 Monstrata: but yea 99% of map is following beat/drum beat/ instrument beat
21:02 Pereira006: well if you wanna snap vocal or instrumental
21:03 Pereira006: is risky guidelines
21:03 Monstrata: i just change for 04:33:754 (1) - 04:35:730 (1) - 04:37:763 (1) - 04:39:787 (1) -
21:03 Monstrata: everything else is beat. just those 4 sliders are vocal
21:03 Pereira006: did u update ?

#bubble 1

Enkidu wrote:

pff, got a C, seems good

this is a legendary map, have a kudosu star, this deserves a rank, arguably the best map i've seen in my two long years playing this game : ^)

edit: i'm serious i want to see this ranked lol

CelsiusLK wrote:

well
if the map is intend to be ugly then saying this map is so ugly might be a compliment instead xd

#Mind = Blown

the guitar intro sound like 1/3 for me tho lmao

Desperate-kun wrote:

Grand mapping. This is exactly what my interpretation of this song would look like, except I wouldn't be able to pull it off and finish it. Also everyone complaining about the slidershapes being 'ugly' should calm down and think for a moment. The sliders are just as 'ugly' as the song, both in a good way.

EDIT: Also, please stop saying it goes against any 'standards of quality'.

Spaghetti wrote:

ok what u guys dont understand is that if the map was the same without the ugly sliders you wouldnt be complaining :\

VINXIS wrote:

it was made to look like shit/for aesthetic purposez not to be the ahrdest ranked map u can ask monstrata huimself

if som parts that actualy "boost" sr play lik shit hed proly chang it..

snoverpk wrote:

this entire thread is a bunch of nonsensical arguing
i mean seriously listen to yourself "ewww this map isn't aesthetic where are the qats pls only aesthetic we need triangles"

Broodich wrote:

this map is rly fun i hope it gets ranked

Bonsai wrote:

Hello, I am a completely uninvolved BN who has never M4M'd with any other BN since he became BN and I just wanted to say that I like this map and I hope it gets ranked soon once the timing-issues have been fixed

ok cya guys

Illkryn wrote:

hey guys look at me im in a drama thread

if it was bubbled and you don't like it help it improve?

i think im saying this in every drama thread now but if you don't like it, ignore it.

i looked at the map and i dont rly mind tbh i want it to rank so i can get a phatty pass on it tbh

also all u slow noobs always so emotional over maps u cant play xddd

Spaghetti wrote:

i dont understand why ugly sliders = bad quality it makes no sense lol

captin1 wrote:

i love when people who don't understand anything that they're talking about try and criticize a map for doing what the creator intended. the messy sliders absolutely fit the style of the song, so stop being a bunch of r/osugame shitlords and take a hike. there's no reason to say that sliders done erratically mean that the "map quality" is low, if you think that you're completely shallow.

gl monstrata hope these people leave you alone soon

Haruto wrote:

i feel so sad to monstra who had taken all of his effort for this map.

i still dont understand why this shouldnt be ranked/qualified, there is no unrankable stuff on the map anyway. it is didnt play well like i expect but please respect the mapper ;;

gl monstra, i hope those guys will realize themself and can leave you alone soon

CypCypCyprian wrote:

holy fuck it's actually not bad

Nevo wrote:

Random new mapper strolling by, but I since I don't want to say anything because of my experience I love how you spelled stop at the end Past that I want to see this ranked really bad.

HabiHolic wrote:

Star. good luck!

StarrStyx wrote:

I just love it when ppl say mapping isnt art l o l
How come it isnt? Its a form of creativity after all XD

-kevincela- wrote:

I haven't been following the situation, but the last post just feels so wrong that i somehow have to reply in a way or another.

Sophia wrote:

If I smear you with elephant feces and cover you in duck feathers while singing the lyrics to Pensamento Tipico de Esquerda Caviar wearing a watermelon around my neck in front of a cheering crowd that would be an incredibly creative way of publicly humiliating you and making myself look like a retard and that is in no way art.

Let's just skip this part, which is nonsensical and also quite embarassing.

Sophia wrote:

But let's amuse yourselves that mapping is "art", even for a bit.

Let's pick a dictionary and search for the word "art". Here is the definition, according to Oxford Dictionaries (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... nglish/art):

The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination

What is a map, if not an expression of somebody's imagination and skill? If we also take the fact that mapping is based on music, which is by some considered as the most direct type of art, then we can say that mapping is also an art. This is based on a DEFINITION, so I don't think there's really much to say about this!

Sophia wrote:

Do you think mapping is a form of art which could even one day hope to compare to literature?

Why are you even comparing mapping to literature? It's like comparing engraving to music, they have nothing in common except for the fact they're both art expressions. They have completely different audiences as well as intentions, why the heck would you do this? lol

Sophia wrote:

I'll be looking for the day you mapping the next TV Size Anime Opening by LiSA makes an impact in society or any form of culture in the world in a relevant way.

Even a tv size map can be art, it would probably "low quality" art, but it's an interpretation of a song by somebody nonetheless, thus it is art. Also, do you really think art's purpose is to impact society in any way? Haven't you studied the Aesthetic and Romantic movements, where writers wrote mostly just for themselves, recluding themselves from the outer society? Only some art currents have this purpose of "impacting" someone, it's still mostly something depending from the subject who wants to create that piece of art for his own reasons.

I don't know the context in which this whole discussion has been put into, but whatever conception somebody has on an object can be considered as art, even if we're talking about mapping. Hell, Duchamp went as far as saying that art can be a mere process of selection, instead of creation!

The OT ends here for me, I hope you understood what I meant and have a good day.

melloe wrote:

estellia- wrote:

already missing the point, so many things have been brought up about this map and you're neglecting everything else

people have already time and time again stated the fact that monstrata contradicted himself by saying its a map he made for "lolz" and yet still has serious meaning behind it, and somehow that meaning is some shitty excuse of "philosophy". boi, if it were anyone who prompted the "artsy" argument first it'd be monstrata trying to be edgy and defending himself in the shittiest way possible lol. the fact that people are still defending monstrata is such a joke.

all i'm typing out here is an opinion. as much as i see no value in monstrata's map, perhaps you see no value in my argument. many things to mention about what you said about what i said but i'm seriously too lazy lol. typing out arguments is a pain in the ass, especially when it won't make sense to you anyways

There is value in your argument in that it brings up (and is itself) a kneejerk reaction for many people who encounter something they find unfamiliar or ugly, which is to promptly slap the label "art" on it and declare it pretentious frivolity. Is it a logically sound argument? No, I don't think so.

You also have to understand that when Monstrata waxes poetic in his long posts that he is meming. He's invoking Horace (he literally said "yolo" in his post), he's posting huge walls of quotes from Woody Allen and Confucious, he linked Christina Aguilera's "Beautiful." He actually posted the actual god damn Tatoe song. All these posts are not "Philosophy," they are "Memes." I really don't know how any of you can think he's actually being serious when he says those things.

His map isn't a sternfaced, semantic composition on death and its meaning. That's what he's saying when he wants people to laugh at/with the map. It's kind of a silly map with silly sliders, and the song itself is pretty out there and wild. It's an interesting map for people to say, "haha wow this is kinda weird/cool." That's what he means when he says laugh. He's not hoping that people think it's utter crap and ridicule the living shit out of it.

It's not a complete mess of a map. He's already said that "there's already enough structure involved, both in the consistency of my rhythm choices, and the flow/movement choices between these patterns" and has chosen the sliders to be messy out of everything else. There's method and reasoning that has gone into the mapping, it's not a throwaway joke. Does this mean that the map is above criticism? Of course not. There are things I don't like about it and have brought up that he has seriously responded to, and other criticism that he is still now dealing with where he doesn't even once mention philosophy.

It's okay to criticize the map. But we should begin by viewing the map as what it simply is, which is "messy sliders for a messy song." There's a lot of ways you can go from there. Maybe the sliders are TOO messy, maybe the sliders are messy in the wrong way, maybe they come across as lazy instead of messy. Maybe you disagree with the rhythm choices, the flow, the bad blankets. That's where you should start when you begin to criticize the map, and if Monstrata doesn't respond to your satisfaction then that's fine. But you have to know that if your purpose in criticizing the map is to make it exactly how you want because you don't like so many things about the map and you want him to make the sliders all pretty and the map all neat, then short of him bending over and letting you backseat map for him, you are not going to get what you want.

If you notice the types of criticism he has been responding to and how he has responded to it, you'll notice a pattern. Any stupid, ideological qualms about the map, he has responded with in a way that he feels the response is deserving of: equally ideological, equally vague, equally unspecific. But if you actually get down and talk about, say, red nodes and white nodes, he will respond in the same terms. Same with actual mods.

And "it won't make sense to you anyway?" Seriously? What kind of puerile grade school jab is that? I suppose next you'll be just responding with a short post: "too long didnt read i kno im better then u anyway xd"

In conclusion, can we really all just stop screaming out "ART!! ART!! ART!!" and make some more productive arguments? Because there are more productive arguments to be made. And if Monstrata is uncompromising and doesn't get anywhere with his map, that's on him. But we first have to give the mapper a little room for himself and stop trying to enforce our arbitrary standards on him for every little thing.

FriendoFox wrote:

The map is fun, it just feels.. overmapped at some places
If I was good at modding I'd do it, but I'd probably only be a waste of time on reading, the only thing I don't like is the sliderjump-ish-parts, but that's just me.

appleeaterx wrote:

Changed metadata, fixed another snap issue. The slider designs have been explained in details in the post above, let's see how this goes.
Also, MA´s weird concurrent thing seems like a bug.
Rebubbled #1.

Yuii- wrote:

So, we discussed some patterns, but... we didn't really fix anything, it was most likely pure clarification.

fradiger wrote:

While I don't agree with mappers editing mp3s to push their songs into the marathon category rather than having to map a full spread, complaining about it in this thread will just make you look stupid.

I think the song is perfectly fine, it's music, it has a beat and a melody, and therefore can be adequately mapped. This map meets all of the ranking criteria, isn't over the top ridiculous, and while it does look ugly (which mind you, is the entire purpose of the mapping style that Monstrata chose to use), it is passable (perhaps even fcable).

The best part is it's a consistent group of people who talk crap in these threads. Mappers shouldn't have to put up with this stuff, their map is their opinion, and while everyone is entitled to have one, and you can debate back and forth about them, you can't just blow off the mapper's effort with these stupid backhanded comments like "remap" or "wow this map is BAD." That's like telling an artist that you don't like their painting, and then when they ask why you respond with "it's just bad and I don't like it." If you disagree, please provide some sort of argument that makes sense, and if the mapper tells you to shove it, there's nothing you can do about it. If you don't like the map, don't install it, don't play it. Every day there are probably 3-4 maps ranked that you never even hear about or play, just turn this map into another one of those. It's not like ranking maps like these will destroy the mapping community here in osu!, so don't act like it.

Also the amount of >20k ranked players commenting on the playability of this map is far too high and honestly just silly.

Secretpipe wrote:

That reflects the song's atmosphere at least \:D/

I really liked the second half of it tho

Underforest wrote:

congratz o/
come on, i'm ready for love :3

Edited per request

DualAkira wrote:

Congrats! Fun map.

VINXIS wrote:

This is a really nice map! Congratulations Monstrata!

Rapthorn wrote:

I would post a mod, but I don't have much to contribute with. Map is great, congratulations on qualify!

AustinsGuitar wrote:

love the second part of the map. Maybe a larger spred on the streams at 03:38:822 - and 03:38:822 - .... just think it would add to a equalization of difficulty level and make that part of the map not 100%'able by everyone playing it .-. GREAT MAP KEEP IT UP!

jawns wrote:

Warpyc wrote:

Obviously the biggest issue with this map is that it's made intentionally worse looking, which is why people dislike it so much, its not like they downvote the map because they dislike Monstrata, actually the community loves monstrata or well at least used to. They are simply trying to make their voices heard in this.

It's obvious that this map has an issue so why not fix the issue instead of ignoring it and shrugging it off with some far fetched it fits the music or whatever, honestly how thick headed can you be, learn to accept some feedback, get off your high horse and fix the actual problem with this map.

I think most of us knows that there lies a good map below this, why dont you bring that map forward instead of this heap of drama and hate that you've managed to bring upon yourself.

Why does a map have to be beautiful for it to be good?

hi-mei wrote:

well i think this map is decent to be reanked.
but for real there will be no players to actually play this (or even pass)

DiamondRain wrote:

Pacemaker wrote:

Wtf does that even mean. Collectively hating/liking something does not equal circlejerking. Even good mappers get shit ratings when they fuck up

What it means? It just means that this beatmap was specifically targeted by the osu reddit community to downvote it, if you dont see that, then you're a sad person with low intellect, which you are anyways when I look at your poor attempts to "burn" people. Idk this map, don't really care either but hating on something just because it gets qualified is just stupid. I don't go around and tell people to stop eating tomatoes just because I don't like them.

What's so damn hard in avoiding something you don't like? Your opinion isnt superior to anyone else's so don't act like you're some godsent messias.

RoX2_Fang wrote:

LOVE this song
LOVE this map

Franc[e]sco wrote:

I've played this on ht and hthr, and IMO the jumps don't feel like "tag4" jumps at all. they're fast, sure, but that's simply because of the sheer speed of the song. I think the map is overall pretty enjoyable even if it's incredibly hard

jesse1412 wrote:

Look, this map looks like shit and plays like butter. The jumps flow inexplicably well, the only jumps that don't feel like butter to me are - guess what - the hardest jumps in the map; the reason? I'm no where near good enough to play them. Maybe people should keep that in mind when thinking about this map. Worth noting that I even thing the 1/4 sliders play incredibly well too, everything works fine.

The map plays smooth and looks shit. Nothing about this plays/reads badly, if it's unrankable, it's because of a lack of blankets and other redundant aesthetic things that people care about and maybe a few small issues that need to be forked out with a comb.

Personally I could not give two fucks about aesthetics if it the map plays well.

Also please don't compare this map to anything wings has done, this map plays like a fairly standard map in my opinion; relatively easy to read with natural flowing triangle jumps. It's just ugly as fuck and people seem to think ugly mapping is "20XX never before seen shitmapping".

EDIT: AR9.2 was cooler.

Varqaaa wrote:

The triplets around 02:37:015 (2,3,4) feel overmapped to me. Why put them in there? There's nothing corresponding in the song.

In general though, I don't see what all the fuss is about. The spacing and jerkiness is warranted. Have you listened to the song? It thrashes about and shifts gears in a deliberately grotesque and sporadic manner which the map mirrors effectively. "It's hard" "it's bad" "it's different" "I don't like it"... these are not sufficient grounds to write off a map.

FriendoFox wrote:

The map is fine, why does it have to look good? Aslong as it's fun to play noone should give a shit
I at first thought this map is bad, just to join the hate-train, but I gave it a try myself and this map is actually fun, the only thing I don't like are the "slider-jump-streams", as I like to call them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytqJDAelxRQ

Graf wrote:

Never had more fun on a map.

grumd wrote:

good map when qual???

WISPG_G wrote:

Rank it already, please ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

Lilynn wrote:

This is incredible! ^-^

Its what I imagine mapping would be like right now if the general "meta" for mapping evolved in a completely different way than it did.

Its really tempting to just look at this map and say, "Shit map xddxDX; lel" but I honestly can't bring myself to even call this bad, or average.
Its mapped in such a way that it stretches the boundaries of what is creative or innovative and what is just downright...insane
Its probably the most creative map I've ever seen...you look at what you actually did in order to create this map and have it flow in the way it did and it becomes clear that there was intention behind this madness.


Art.

GhostZ wrote:

Really Beautiful Map

Ranked when

Renumi wrote:

GhostZ wrote:

Really Beautiful Map

Ranked when

I agree!

grumd wrote:

psl rank??? wtf

Lunicia wrote:

rank pls thx

MaddaFakka-sama wrote:

Bakari wrote:

Removed a few irrelevant posts.

If you have something informative to post, read through the previous posts first. Otherwise, don't post at all.

You want this ranked as much as we do right? FeelsBadMan

Hobbes2 wrote:

at least now people wont say "but you're dethroning mazzerin!!"

good luck monstrata, I personally really like this map and wish you the best.

Varqaaa wrote:

glad to see Promethean Kings brought this back


Monstrata I'll be honest this is unironically my favorite map you've ever made by a pretty large margin, best of luck with rank

FoxyGrandpa wrote:

Best of luck on this monstrata!

Hopefully it'll go well now that we have a 9* ranked

DanDaBruh wrote:

i really want this ranked

Arphimigon wrote:

Thanks for bringing this back.
Wish the best of luck, hope it pleases everyone (or at least more than before).

(ps: I like ar9.7 because I can see more of the aesthetics, and that is a key factor in the map \ o /
also patterns play more into the playing of the map here rather than individual notes, so lower AR helps in that case)

fastmarkus wrote:

Good luck on trying to get this ranked, it's an ugly beautiful map (if that makes sense)!

The only thing which bothers me is the fact that there should be a complete mapset for this one (come on, it would make a lot of people happy/happier!), since the song is shorter than 5 minutes, even though the current map is not. I read the discussion before, but I believe if this gets a free pass, it will show few flaws on the ranking system.


But I really mean good luck! It would be lovely watching high ranked players play this one

Weriko wrote:

rank it, p l e a s e

Tanomoshii Nekojou wrote:

Please monstrata sama continue making this kind of maps~... <3

Scarlet Evans wrote:

Good luck, if you try to rank it someday!

destroyerwilly wrote:

Don't hate on map, is gud!

-Sh1n1- wrote:

:o let's go!!

Sotarks wrote:

Go go go! *Grabbing popcorns*

M a r v o l l o wrote:

Oh, you are trying to rank it again. Best of luck owo

Gabe wrote:

You can do it!

1597534268 wrote:

dooooooooooo it

osuskrub wrote:

rank this pls

Genjuro wrote:

nice map, i like the concept used where the map is ugly to go with the ugly song, gl with rank

Left wrote:

i hated this map before, but now i support this map lol

Illkryn wrote:

fun map gl

Mini Gaunt wrote:

M a r v o l l o wrote:

I think everyone can make mistake, so imo Kagetsu should remove his veto because he didn't provide any really valid reason. Sad that I amn't a member of BNG, I would nominate this. And yeah, 800th post hooray

Yeah, I think this veto was uncalled for especially without any reason given but because Kagetsu thinks it is too hard for top players.
And you got sniped on that 800th post real good.

Mentai wrote:

Left wrote:

i hated this map before, but now i support this map lol

Pachiru wrote:

With all the shitmaps we can see nowadays, I think this beatmap can reach the ranked section.
Because the map itself isn't bad, and the contrast between the both part is very well done. If it's how he want to express his point of view about the music, why are you trying to change Monstrata's mind?

Gokateigo wrote:

If you make a contrast with beautiful/ugly mapping you obviously think one part is ugly and the other one is beautiful, seems obvious. He can make a contrast with difficulty, like Mazzerin did with PK, it'll be way better than this

I don't think he wanted to make it ugly, but more something weird, fast and tricky, as the song would be. As I said before, it's his POV on this song.

DeviousPanda wrote:

Gokateigo wrote:

my opinion

This map sucks tbh, you shitmapped a huge part because you think metal is disgusting, Mazzerin maps death metal and thinks song representation is more important than aesthetics. His maps are NOT ugly af, they are a bit ugly sometimes (with really ugly sounds, not everything) but his style fits very well to metal, you should map something similar to his style in the "ugly" part and map ugly sliders when they are in the middle of the calm part because you can't change your style for 2 objects. If you map something like this I'll bee happy if it's ranked, it's just a random shit map atm for me

Telling him to map like mazzerin won't change anything, because this song is quite different to the stuff that mazzerin maps.

Monstrata didn't shitmap this map, he's explained quite clearly why he's mapped it the way this is, so stop tying to get him to change that because that's not going to happen

Ankanogradiel wrote:

Left wrote:

i hated this map before, but now i support this map lol

Tbh I never actually hated it but I can sort of understand that.
At first I thought "oh he is just trying to show that he can rank anything" but then I took a closer look.
Monstrata is making an effort to rank this and mapping it like that seems fitting for the music imo. You are all just creatin unnecessary drama.
Didn't find something wrong with the map.
In reality there isn't anything wrong with it than the fact that it's different in a way, and people need some time to digest it.
Unbubling for invalid reasons ain't gonna help either. Further discussion will only lead to more pointless arguments and salt.

AncuL wrote:

i'd say monstrata mapped the first half with such weird shaped sliders is because of how chaotic it is with many chaotic screamos all over the place, and i think monstrata had done it very masterfully. you can't compare this with mazzerin's maps because the songs he is mapping are so much better organized (and also not intended to be chaotic at the first place).. well i mean you don't find the vocalist throwing tantrums on songs mazzerin mapped

Seni wrote:

You don't have to be a chef to know the dish is bad.

but you need to be able to taste it to judge whether it's bad or not. if someone don't like eating vegetables, they would mostly say that every vegetable dishes taste bad

at first, i thought monstrata was just a jerk who can speedrank anything at his own will, but seeing this map further makes me understand how much effort he was putting into this map. good luck on ranking this!

Ampiduxmoe wrote:

i can't say i want this map to be ranked (it's fine for ranked section i guess), but i don't understand why people think this is unrankable.
Can you please say why it is unrankable? because sliders are ugly? well, they are fine because represent music almost perfectly. I can't see anything bad in expressing music through the visuals.
Some say this is unplayable. Oh, really? i had a pass on this map when i was practicing high bpm maps a lot. now im 18k btw (i didn't gain any ranks so i probably had same 4k pp back then). It's nowhere near unplayable, i really don't get this point.
so why it can't be ranked? can someone explain properly?

Gasai wrote:

Sucks that you apparently can't be original in map making. I feel most maps these days are just the same copy and paste patterns on different bpms (awks). I like the concept of a map being mapped based on how the song is. If the song sounds chaotic, I'd like to see a chaotic map. If the song is slow and soothing, I expect a soothing map. So, if you try to stifle mappers' creativity here, then what's going to happen in the future. If you're going to bubble or veto it, give good reasons that the mapper can actually consider and implement to make the map better and that 'better' being the 'better' in your opinion and not necessarily the thousands of people playing the game.

Kynan wrote:

Gokateigo if cancerous people like you who can't even play the map weren't allowed to vote and appear in the "user rating", then we'd see a way more positive one. Using NF shouldn't allow people to rate the map IMHO.