The stuff I didn't reply to I'm fine with the "explanations" for.Monstrata wrote:
[]Mir wrote:
well
i genuinely do have some concerns about the topdiff of this mapset
[Four Dimensions]
00:39:757 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - you drop the emphasis through slight spacing change thing with 00:38:426 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - for some reason here and the song hasn't really changed all that much, the intensity of both instances are similar This is just visuals. The "slight spacing change" isn't being used to create emphasis. You won't feel any emphatic difference when hitting those specific notes because of their spacing. um.. you do feel the difference, this is quite noticeable and does have an impact on gameplay. even if you say it's only aesthetics it's inconsistent with 00:39:491 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - aesthetically too, and since this map's core concept is apparently consistency, that breaks the concept.
00:45:876 (1,2,3) - I think this rhythm would fit the drums and piano better, what you have right now kinda.. doesn't really fit imo http://i.imgur.com/KpXKhZk.png What? No... this fits perfectly
00:44:812 (1,2,3,4) - all ignoring the 1/4, you could use 1/4 sliders here? I don't want to use 1/4's. 1/2 works better in building up the song.
The kiai at 00:46:941 - ignores so much of the song imo. Especially 00:48:005 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - this part as a lot of doubles in it that you could have mapped with 1/4 sliders or something like 00:12:883 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - which would not only represent the song way better but also provide respite from the constant 1/4 clicking. I want this to be a stream map. THey are definitely supported in the song and the rhythm being used is in no way confusing. That's exactly the problem, the song is using complex rhythm but the map isn't representing it. They're supported in the song by background noises sure, but if you map only the background noises you end up ignoring what makes the song.. the song, which is the problem I have with your rhythm. You can have it be a stream map in all the other places, but this doesn't rhythm doesn't really fit here. This rhythm is also separating the stanzas - they're different phrases. This is also - if I didn't misread - a concept of your map, and it's breaking itUh.. I jsut disagree. THey're maybe annoying to you, but they fit very well for me.
- 00:51:198 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1,2) - sidenote the whistles here overlap each other so annoyingly when they're put on such high bpm 1/4, it actually takes away from the gameplay experience imo so what i would suggest is using a shorter whistle so that they don't overlap as noticeably
00:53:061 (1,2) - is also cool as an emphasis tool but then using 1/4 sliders again for 00:54:125 (1,2) - is kind of undermapping it a bit imo, they're noticeable drums and you could have done something like http://i.imgur.com/RlPIw9N.jpg What? They're following the drum. And it really helps to separate this rhythm from the rest of the streams. If it's separating the rhythm you want, you may as well make 00:53:061 (1,2,1,2) - circles instead of 1/4 sliders because what you're doing with these is blending different rhythm 00:53:593 (1,2,1,2) - with the same objects, which is exactly what you're telling me you want to avoid. you even said earlier that "1/2 works better in building up the song."
00:54:923 - from here the song really lowers in intensity but the map doesn't at all, what would fit here is a couple of 1/4 reverses like http://i.imgur.com/bncrIlL.png or something to represent that change in intensity instead of keeping the same intensity stream It doesn't lower in intensity. Listen to the 1/4's they are still there. You are basing the "lack of intensity" on the fact that the high piano note is held which is subjective at best. I'm having a hard time understanding how a held piano warrants a stream then, because blending the lower and upper layer of the music for this change is in essence ignoring the separation of these stanzas, which is also, as you said, a concept of your map
00:56:519 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16) - this ncing seems to be inconsistent with 00:48:005 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - but again my point about rhythm here and other places My bad. But i'm not dq'ing unless theres a valid reason. lets see...
01:02:240 (4,5,6) - these call for circles imo, differentiation here would work wonders to represent this build up since they look the same as the rest of the 1/4 sliders but cover different sounds Theyre definitely kicksliders... just listen to the kick rhythm. okay, 01:02:240 (4,5,6) - aren't 1/4 drums in the song after all, your hitsound mislead me. this entire section is 1/2 drums, in which case why not make them all circles instead since, again, you said above "1/2 works better in building up the song."
01:16:209 - song changes here too, lots of drums introduced but the emphasis doesn't really change. the flow gets sharper sure but i think you could also use spacing emphasis when the drums change intensity as well like 01:17:806 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - compared to 01:18:338 (7,8,9) - and so on I want to keep the pattern consistent. expressing them differently is really awkward for mapping. sure, i can do them differently, but patterning would suffer, as would rhythm and flow. because the way you have it right now isn't expressing them to the fullest potential, that's why it would be hard to change
01:32:706 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - you know blue zenith had a cool part at 02:57:434 - 03:02:234 - that pretty much fits what the song is doing here too, but the stream you mapped doesn't really show off the building (or dropping, however you interpret it) intensity very well That's too bad. Uhm, excuse me? Can you at least give me a reason as to why you don't want to do this, instead of saying "That's too bad." and letting it drop?
01:49:069 (7,8,1) - isn't differentiated either in terms of rhythm, spacing, flow or anything, and there are different sounds here. doing it only with hitsounds is a bit lackluster imo I'm not trying to differentiate.... This is a map about consistency and streams. you have stream everywhere else it's just 3 notes that you'd be sacrificing, and it would improve the emphasis altogether. it's still a stream map
01:49:735 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - this is way higher intensity but mapped the same intensity as the rest of the streams, it also has fluctuations on 01:50:200 (8,1) - that aren't emphasized at all synth-wise. 01:51:863 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - is really really underdone it's not shown off at all and the synth is going crazy and the drums are all over the place but.. the stream is the same spacing and has very few direction changes It's the same as all the others. I think your idea of intensity just differs from mine. I want a consistent map that test player's endurance, tests their ability to continue consistently getting 300's, follow the freedom-dive esque aesthetic streams etc... okay that's a good aim and I respect that but you're sacrificing emphasizing the song itself for making the map challenging. you're misrepresenting the song because you want to just have one massive stream that players have to click that doesn't follow the intensity of the music. emphasizing this would give a challenge, and it would test the players endurance to adapt to this change as well
01:55:056 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - outro stream but it's the same spacing throughout, the piano even peaks at 01:56:120 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - but isn't shown off at all, it's the highest pitch the piano is ever going to get. also 01:55:854 - why does the hitsound volume decrease on such an intense part? it's not as major but yeah it sound be constant volume imo ^ ^
A lot of the direction changes feel quite arbitrary or just don't exist. 00:52:794 (1) - would be grounds for a direction change. yet 00:59:712 (1,5) - 1 has a strong sound so direction change here is good, but 5 doesn't really and they change at the nearly the same angle. 00:54:391 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) - changes slightly on what seems to be the 7 but the stronger note is on the 00:54:923 (9) - and so forth, this happens in a lot of places in both kiais That's the idea. it's freedom dive esque in that aspect and i really like it. i think streams nowadays respect emphasis way too much and it causes right hand rhythm to be really predictable and uninteresting. but what you're doing is making predictable and uninteresting rhythm that's ignoring the song - the song itself is unpredictable, just look at the places i pointed out where you ignore that unpredictable nature to put in your predictable streams. you're doing the exact thing you want to avoid doing, just without the emphasis part. your rhythm is predictable because it's all 1/4 deathstreams, and it's uninteresting because it's all 1/4 deathstreams.
Minor stuff:
- 00:09:890 (3) - 00:10:821 (2) - missing whistle? No theyre there on purpose. spamming all whistles sounds bad. 3 is consistent with 00:10:821 (2) - anyways.
- 00:20:599 (5,7) - removing the hitsounds here would actually sound better imo since the song has no noticeable drum here Uh no... disagree.
- 00:38:027 (2) - 1/6 here you could have taken advantage of Yea i don' want to xP.
Overall the map in its current state I think does not represent the song in the best way it can and as it stands actually chooses to ignore it in both kiais and through lack of differentiation between instruments in various places. The streams have very little emphasis spacing-wise and the infrequent direction changes, while some are present and work, don't really do much to help the emphasis. The rhythm in the kiai ignores the song pretty obviously especially when the same rhythm as 00:48:005 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - was mapped like 00:12:883 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - in a non-kiai section.
Sorry... I think we just have differing views on how intensity should function, and you should really consider the idea behind this map more. Look at Nakagawa kanon's freedom dive. you'll see a lot of aesthetics are borrowed there. as well, the map is a test of consistency and stamina. it's not trying to delegate different spacings to match the exact pitch and intensity of every section of music. It's looking more broadly at whole stanxas, and less narrowly at specific patterns and rhythms.
Monstrata, come on.
If you want to compare different maps (which is never a good idea, I think we both know using other maps for justifying things on a different map isn't very solid reasoning) Nakagawa Kanon mapped the melody of Freedom Dive, but you ignore this song's melody. How could you compare that? In Freedom Dive: 01:47:974 - look at this kiai, it follows the melody in the song to a T, it does it consistently and in a challenging way that emphasizes everything in a reasonable way. Your map really isn't doing that very much, and I think you know that.
I'm sorry Monstrata, but I'm inclined to disagree with a lot of what you replied to me with, and the way you replied came across quite condescending. I would appreciate if we could treat each other with a bit of respect here, we're both trying to make this the best map it can be, so let's try to come to a compromise where that's possible.