I'm with monstrata in this case, the map won for the design and creativity in no mod, while mods are an important thing in game... in this case I think reducing the hp do more bad than good, since HR destroy the visuals of the map o.o.. and considering this is an aspire map, I guess is better to keep the mapper's way.
forum
IAHN - Transform (Original Mix)
posted
Total Posts
380
Generally maps are designed to be played on NoMod, therefore the argument HR doesn't work for this map is invalid. That's why the point "The map must be able to be completed without the NoFail mod required to pass it" is mentioned because that's hilarious if a ranked map can only be played with a score reduce or has a mod requirement to be played properly.
If you're looking for pp or want to challenge yourself with HR Mod, look for another beatmap. This one doesn't suits well.
If you're looking for pp or want to challenge yourself with HR Mod, look for another beatmap. This one doesn't suits well.
izeraoS
.
the point i'm trying my hardest to make is that while it's not a requirement(even though i'd argue it should be), limiting the players because of the HP mechanic is a bullshit thing to do, as it removes an entire way to enjoy the map, and simply limits the challenge of the map for no good reason.Stefan wrote:
Generally maps are designed to be played on NoMod, therefore the argument HR doesn't work for this map is invalid.
i'm terribly sorry for saying this, but you have no basis for this - you're a rank 130k player. you don't get to claim this map isn't well suited for HR. 6 stars is way outside of your ability to judge playability of maps. because that's what you're doing, right?Stefan wrote:
If you're looking for pp or want to challenge yourself with HR Mod, look for another beatmap. This one doesn't suits well.
the map doesn't suddenly flip upside down when you're on nomod if the sliders are altered to allow HR passes, using the concept i illustrated earlier. the intended experience of the map does not change in this case, i just don't think players should be limited in this way.Natsu wrote:
I'm with monstrata in this case, the map won for the design and creativity in no mod, while mods are an important thing in game... in this case I think reducing the hp do more bad than good, since HR destroy the visuals of the map o.o.. and considering this is an aspire map, I guess is better to keep the mapper's way.
it's not the same thing. you should realize this. you remove the possibility of any HR scores reaching the top scores set on the map, an achievement that should (ideally) reflect the effort/ability put into the map by the players.appleeaterx wrote:
If Monstrata does not want to change the HP just for that, I feel that you have to respect his choice. You can always edit HP yourself if you want to play HR so bad.
come on. the strongest reason argued against this is "it looks weird/different when auto plays GN's quickly edited proof of concept", which i should add, can be done in a much more tasteful way if you alter the zigzag to cover a smaller area. is that REALLY all the reason you need to deny me?
Topic Starter
No, the main reason is that I don't want to lower the HP. It's already low enough so that you only need some skill to pass the map. Most people 30k can eventually pass this map. Any lower and there's literally no penalty to messing up any of the elements I've used. If you can just pass everything, theres no challenge to different patterns, and it makes the map less memorable. You are far too high ranked to appreciate slowly getting through different stages of a map in an effort to finally get a run that passes it.
We've said all thats needed to be said about this discussion, and my decision remains clear: HP will not be lowered. Thanks for your concerns though, but I'd appreciate if you didn't go into this discussion expecting a change.
We've said all thats needed to be said about this discussion, and my decision remains clear: HP will not be lowered. Thanks for your concerns though, but I'd appreciate if you didn't go into this discussion expecting a change.
don't tell me you forgot about the slider science already. i'm not talking about HP.
i'm also not "expecting" anything. i'm just trying my damn hardest to convince you your map should be passable on HR.
that's rude. i'll have you know i had trouble passing apparition up until i finally did it yesterday night.Monstrata wrote:
You are far too high ranked to appreciate slowly getting through different stages of a map in an effort to finally get a run that passes it.
i'm also not "expecting" anything. i'm just trying my damn hardest to convince you your map should be passable on HR.
Topic Starter
No, I don't want to implement those sliders. What I have works, and creating those up/down vibration movements is not something I want do implement. Additionally the entire slider thing is extremely hard to implement correctly. You can already see how off your slider-ends are when you look at them in editor, and thats already overlooking how unprecise the nodes are. You can't just zigzag them, they have to be perfectly vertical, or the butterfly body's horizontal vibrations, which simulate it fluttering, are completely covered. Something like this requires .osu editing in order to properly implement, and it additionally would have to be applied to every butterfly slider. Also, it would look really bad anyways because the up/down movement can be seen in editor and on HT. I'm not going to implement it. It's far too tedious and time consuming to implement it just to satisfy a few HR players who won't even be playing the sliders how I wanted them played.
if you can't pass a literal impossible map with a mod, theres no challenge or a point to playing the map. really, there isnt a point to not let someone play a mod that was clearly implemented in the game to give experienced players a bigger challenge, even when it ruins the aesthetic value for a map because lets face it, it ruins the aesthetic value for every single map, and not only do most players not even give a single shit about the looks or beauty of the map, they mostly care about having it be playable. really, changing the hp to 3.5 or so won't make it less memorable, because though passing will be somehow easier, achieving a combo will still be as challengingMonstrata wrote:
If you can just pass everything, theres no challenge to different patterns, and it makes the map less memorable.
^
I don't get why players must go out of their way to convince mostrata that this map needs to be HR-able. Is the standard gamemode having a map deficit? You ran out of things to HR? You keep knocking on a door to a club that will not open for you because it is not for you. I like the concept that certain maps are made for players who enjoy the art for what the map is and not players looking to get a good score on. It gives a bit more color and diversity to the existing ranked maps.
TL;DR: Have some taste
TL;DR: Have some taste
Why is it being pushed in to the core ranking system when it is very clearly not made for that? If you can't play this map properly in ranked, then it does not belong in ranked. In no way should an artists vision obstruct the core gameplay in a way that this clearly seems to. You're free to draw paintings in the graveyard.abraker wrote:
I like the concept that certain maps are made for players who enjoy the art for what the map is and not players looking to get a good score on. It gives a bit more color and diversity to the existing ranked maps.
Ninmi wrote:
Why is it being pushed in to the core ranking system when it is very clearly not made for that? If you can't play this map properly in ranked, then it does not belong in ranked. In no way should an artists vision obstruct the core gameplay in a way that this clearly seems to. You're free to draw paintings in the graveyard.abraker wrote:
I like the concept that certain maps are made for players who enjoy the art for what the map is and not players looking to get a good score on. It gives a bit more color and diversity to the existing ranked maps.
Because this won the Aspire contest? Literally the whole concept of the Aspire contest is to break practically all rules of mapping. And as i've been told by other "mappers" - "As long as it plays nomod, then what's the issue"
To set it apart from other graveyard maps. It won the Aspire contest for crying outloud. Currently there is no better catagory to put creative playable maps not optimized for playability. Also while not made for gameplay, don't you still wonder how you would do against others on it?Ninmi wrote:
Why is it being pushed in to the core ranking system when it is very clearly not made for that? If you can't play this map properly in ranked, then it does not belong in ranked. In no way should an artists vision obstruct the core gameplay in a way that this clearly seems to. You're free to draw paintings in the graveyard.
Saying that art belongs in the graveyard is like stepping it with your foot. That can hurt any creator's feelings, and more over when it is something as great as this. I am not the creator, and I felt a very offensive vibe from this statement.Abyssal wrote:
You're free to draw paintings in the graveyard.
Edit: Charles left because players think "drawings" like these belong in the graveyard. I don't blame him. Obviously there is a great divide of opinion here between players who have taste and appriciate the art and players who can want to make scores and can't care less about the art. There needs to be a split in catagory of maps, otherwise this shitstorm will continue. At this point, I am waiting for this thread to be locked.
But, there IS a fix for passing it with HR, -GN proposed it, and if Monstrata don't want to implement it because it's "too tedious", "too time consuming" and that he just don't want to finish cleaning his map, then that shouldn't belong to Ranked map, Aspire or not.
There is a fix that don't change the experience, if he doesn't want to apply it, there is no excuse and that's all.
The good side is that it show us how Monstrata treat his map and the extand of the time and effort he want to spend in, that would be the kind of guy to won a ping-pong match 21 to 5 and finally when the arbiter say to him that he need to re-do the last point because there was an error, even knowing that he will win again, he take the cup and flee away, showing us his middle finger in the process.
That's extremly childish, and there is no "but".
There is a fix that don't change the experience, if he doesn't want to apply it, there is no excuse and that's all.
The good side is that it show us how Monstrata treat his map and the extand of the time and effort he want to spend in, that would be the kind of guy to won a ping-pong match 21 to 5 and finally when the arbiter say to him that he need to re-do the last point because there was an error, even knowing that he will win again, he take the cup and flee away, showing us his middle finger in the process.
That's extremly childish, and there is no "but".
Mods aren't taken in consideration for ranked maps, aspire or any other map, if the mapper want to fix then is up to him, but the mapper believe the map get hurt on the intended way of no mod, then you guys should respect the mapper decision and move on. GN's suggestion hurt the design of the map and the HP fix hurt the no mod intended way.Niroe wrote:
But, there IS a fix for passing it with HR, -GN proposed it, and if Monstrata don't want to implement it because it's "too tedious", "too time consuming" and that he just don't want to finish cleaning his map, then that shouldn't belong to Ranked map, Aspire or not.
There is a fix that don't change the experience, if he doesn't want to apply it, there is no excuse and that's all.
The good side is that it show us how Monstrata treat his map and the extand of the time and effort he want to spend in, that would be the kind of guy to won a ping-pong match 21 to 5 and finally when the arbiter say to him that he need to re-do the last point because there was an error, even knowing that he will win again, he take the cup and flee away, showing us his middle finger in the process.
That's extremly childish, and there is no "but".
You already pointed your suggestion the mapper disagree with it and provide you valid explains, move on guys there are thousand of maps that can be played with hr, also is monstrata map, no your map, you can do suggestions, but you can't force him to hurt his work because of you, the map still can be played with hr + no fail.
If the contest was about breaking ranked rules, then maybe the maps should not be ranked. I was really puzzled as to why repeating sliders that don't use the actual repeat mechanism and circles outside of the play area were suddenly allowed, but I guess this is the culprit. I am heavily in favour of winning maps like these rather getting their own leaderboard and other sorts of prestige attached to them.Abyssal wrote:
Because this won the Aspire contest? Literally the whole concept of the Aspire contest is to break practically all rules of mapping. And as i've been told by other "mappers" - "As long as it plays nomod, then what's the issue"
just play the map, not everything has to be hr. it may not seem much to you but for the mapper it is asking a lot to tell him to change his sliders in a way he doesnt want to. honestly if i put all that work into pretty butterfly sliders i would not want even want to add those zigzags to it, it's totally understandable
that being said, lowering hp will not affect "memorability," what a silly notion, nobody is going to say "aw man that was too easy to pass, fuck that map i'm gonna forget all about it, it was nothing special!" and if you cant pass the map on hp4 then it's probably because you cant read it, and in all likelihood cant pass on hp3 either
that being said, lowering hp will not affect "memorability," what a silly notion, nobody is going to say "aw man that was too easy to pass, fuck that map i'm gonna forget all about it, it was nothing special!" and if you cant pass the map on hp4 then it's probably because you cant read it, and in all likelihood cant pass on hp3 either
hi could you not misrepresent charles, nothing mentioned in his podcast even remotely resembles your elitist conception of art and tasteabraker wrote:
Charles left because players think "drawings" like these belong in the graveyard. I don't blame him. Obviously there is a great divide of opinion here between players who have taste and appriciate the art and players who can want to make scores and can't care less about the art. There needs to be a split in catagory of maps, otherwise this shitstorm will continue. At this point, I am waiting for this thread to be locked.
Not even sure about the future of this...
I am no expert in how the editor works, but can't you just add ''breaks'' like you did in some parts of the map at the butterfly sliderstream so that you can survive the map without losing HP so that you could pass it on HR?
this actually sounds like a plausible fixNyanaro wrote:
I am no expert in how the editor works, but can't you just add ''breaks'' like you did in some parts of the map at the butterfly sliderstream so that you can survive the map without losing HP so that you could pass it on HR?
I studied the sliders a bit with automod since all of you seem to get different results with the auto mod.
The answer to this is, that it depends on many factors:
1. Your FPS-Limit (I got the best Accuracy with VSync)
2. The speed you are viewing the play (0,5x 1x or 2x)
3. The Mods you are using (Nomod, HR, DT, HRDT and HDHRDT are all giving completly different results)
I tested many possibilities and got dozens of different results with this. Also it seems to be impossible to get a SS with HRDT, no matter which settings you choose. A nomod SS or HR SS is possible with the right options though.
But nevertheless the most strange thing is the play I just got with 20fps as you see at the #1 Spot. 4 combopoints are missing but it has only 3x 100s.
lmao this thread
well, there is an idea which could prevent shitstorm like this one: What if same what happened to TAG maps would happen to further aspire winner's maps? Still, there will be people who will cry about how unpassable 2b mapping with hr/fl/ezhd/potato mods (while not being able to do even nomod), but there will be less of them, because of no pepe immo.
well, there is an idea which could prevent shitstorm like this one: What if same what happened to TAG maps would happen to further aspire winner's maps? Still, there will be people who will cry about how unpassable 2b mapping with hr/fl/ezhd/potato mods (while not being able to do even nomod), but there will be less of them, because of no pepe immo.
It's not even an issue with pp tbh because it's probably going to be pretty underweighted compared to its difficulty like Charles' map. Besides that the acc is definitely going to drop since the sliders make it guaranteed that a few 100s are going to happen z
who are you referring to here? is pp the only reason to care about the map being passable on hr?EvilElvis wrote:
Still, there will be people who will cry about how unpassable 2b mapping with hr/fl/ezhd/potato mods (while not being able to do even nomod), but there will be less of them, because of no pepe immo.
i still second thisKibbleru wrote:
this actually sounds like a plausible fixNyanaro wrote:
I am no expert in how the editor works, but can't you just add ''breaks'' like you did in some parts of the map at the butterfly sliderstream so that you can survive the map without losing HP so that you could pass it on HR?
What do the breaks even do except giving warningarrows and lag?
So i just looked at the map and Hum...
Do anyone remenber how HP work in this game anymore???
like...
Why in f**king hell of all this drama, has nobody propose to just change all the note in the butterfly to new combo, making it passable with HR, cause that's how new combo WORK!?!
Then you just have the make the new combo be the same colour has the previous note where before the change, this way the map look exactly the same and GG!
I just tested it and it with HR and it work perfectly, with literraly NO need to change the HP, the slider, the look, or the playability of the map!
Basically the only change required is to add new combo colour.(and maybe not even, cause you can probably just edit color using the osu file)
Do anyone remenber how HP work in this game anymore???
like...
Why in f**king hell of all this drama, has nobody propose to just change all the note in the butterfly to new combo, making it passable with HR, cause that's how new combo WORK!?!
Then you just have the make the new combo be the same colour has the previous note where before the change, this way the map look exactly the same and GG!
I just tested it and it with HR and it work perfectly, with literraly NO need to change the HP, the slider, the look, or the playability of the map!
Basically the only change required is to add new combo colour.(and maybe not even, cause you can probably just edit color using the osu file)
Mindwaves wrote:
So i just looked at the map and Hum...
Do anyone remenber how HP work in this game anymore???
like...
Why in f**king hell of all this drama, has nobody propose to just change all the note in the butterfly to new combo, making it passable with HR, cause that's how new combo WORK!?!
Then you just have the make the new combo be the same colour has the previous note where before the change, this way the map look exactly the same and GG!
I just tested it and it with HR and it work perfectly, with literraly NO need to change the HP, the slider, the look, or the playability of the map!
Basically the only change required is to add new combo colour.
this actually makes a whole lot of sense lol
Topic Starter
It was all a lie.
by editing the .osu http://i.imgur.com/zHr1JdS.jpgMonstrata wrote:
Uh, how exactly do you add more NC's without messing up the combo colors? Lol
the fourth value has to be set to 118* for each slider you want to nc with the same color as before
for 01:11:260 (2) - it would be 256,192,71433,118,0......... in the file
*value will be different for circles, but that obviously doesn't matter here since it's only sliders
hi uuuh i've been getting mentions here so
i did play the map with hr a couple of times but i had nf on on all of them, pretty sure i didn't pass any of my runs because i thought the map wasn't passable with hr? sadly i can't find the replay but i'm sure i played hrnf on all of my hr runs
not gonna give any opinions on this matter, just saying i don't have a pass on the map with hr lol
i did play the map with hr a couple of times but i had nf on on all of them, pretty sure i didn't pass any of my runs because i thought the map wasn't passable with hr? sadly i can't find the replay but i'm sure i played hrnf on all of my hr runs
not gonna give any opinions on this matter, just saying i don't have a pass on the map with hr lol
Topic Starter
Huh, so thats how it works. Assuming doubling the NC will fix the HP drain i'll implement the change. Can someone confirm? I'll contact a QAT when I get home from work (2 hours?).
Confirmed through my imagination so someone feel free to DQ this now (or in 2 hours when I get back home?) i'll update with the changes and get quadruple rebubbles~.
Quick, someone post "We did it!" on Reddit for free karma!
Confirmed through my imagination so someone feel free to DQ this now (or in 2 hours when I get back home?) i'll update with the changes and get quadruple rebubbles~.
Quick, someone post "We did it!" on Reddit for free karma!
you should probably add aspire contest and its characteristics to your map description to avoid idiots from posting nonsense
Topic Starter
Lol. Good idea haha.