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Mode Specific BN's and QAT (osu!mania)

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Tornspirit
251 posts
Joined January 2012
Tornspirit
Seeing as this thread has mostly responses about BN's I want to talk a bit about attempting to get maps ranked as a new mapper (or at least as a mapper who doesn't have any ranked maps).

The typical timeline for someone is along the lines of:

I want to get a map ranked/start mapping > I'm going to collect mods until my map is good enough > My map is good enough, time to call BNs

Lets talk about each of these steps.

I want to get a map ranked/start mapping:


Not much to talk about here other than maybe trying to get better base resources for beginner mappers such as tutorials on the editor itself as well as what makes maps 'good', what patterns are commonly used, what to avoid etc.

I'm going to collect mods until my map is good enough:
Two issues here, the mods and knowing when your map is good enough.

As of now, a lot of people try to fill a 'quota' of mods before they try and find BN's to check. In an ideal world, everyone would have maps that are already well done in the 'style' or 'theme' or whatever you want to call it of the map, and these mods would be to check for technical issues (which most mods already are) and to maybe offer some suggestions (which, again, they already are). People are getting surprised when they fill out their quota and it turns out that contrary to what everyone else has told them in their quick mods, technical issues are not the only part of what their map needs to fix.

This also begs the question of how do you actually know when your map is polished enough to be considered for ranking. BN's get bombarded with heaps and heaps of requests, and sometimes these requests can range from very well polished maps to 'why are you even coming to me your entire map is an issue'. We should try to cut down the number of requests that BN's actually get by teaching the mapping community how to recognize when your map is ready for ranking, not just by the lack of technical issues within the map, but by ensuring that your map is done to the best of its potential. I'm not entirely sure how this can be done considering the subjective matter of mapping, but even small steps into being able to say 'this map is closer to being ready' or 'this map is ready' would be really good.

My map is good enough, time to call BNs

This is a massive issue for multiple reasons.

There's already been a lot of criticism about favouritism when it comes to BN's; I'm not going to say much about anything in particular, but I think that the perception of it being harder to find BN's when you're an unknown mapper is true.

When you're an unknown/newer mapper, there's multiple things you have to go through. Remember that BN's get bombarded with heaps of requests, so it's easy to get brushed off as 'yet another request'. This isn't the BN's fault of course, but it's rough to go around asking for requests then hearing BN's complain about people requesting BN checks when it's literally the only way that you can advance your map and multiple BN's are either difficult to contact due to inactivity or being busy, and the fact that it's actually really difficult sometimes to figure out what the BN actually wants in a map. Personally I think that all BN's should lay out clearly what they want from requests SOMEWHERE, preferably in their profile page or on a modding queue that they link from their profile or something.

A combined BN/QAT thread that only lists the BN/QAT expectations, current level of activity (active, semi-active, inactive, etc.) and current state of their queues (currently taking 5 requests, will be unavailable for roughly 1 month, etc.) might be very helpful too. This would cut down on the number of 'bad' requests, or at least make it easy to ignore when the BN's have clear rules on what they will and won't accept.

---

Ideally, the system should be easy for newcomers to get into while maintaining high quality standards that are CLEAR and EASY to understand for ranking. Remember this isn't only about BN activity, or mapping activity, it's about helping mappers and BN/QAT get the most out of each other to create and rank the best maps possible.

---

As an aside, I see a few suggestions on BN's and playability of high difficulty maps, as well as modding of low>high maps as a progression system. Remember that some people out there are good mapping/criticising high level maps, but are clueless on low level maps, and vice versa. Even if their ability is more limited, I don't think we should discount people who's expertise is focused on a single keymode, or a single level range if they are good at what they do.
Gravey-
1,491 posts
Joined July 2013
Gravey-

abraker wrote:

A third issue we are dealing with is that BN work is boring for some and there is not enough time for such.

Not sure how realistic the following bit is, but this is to solve the 3rd issue. Call me crazy if you must. If possible it is best to make points BN get as competative as possible much like pp. Idk, have a difficulty check be worth some amount of points based on how hard it is to go over. SB? Hitsounds? Timing? Etc? Have a some sort of difficulty rating system. Have leaderboards for such. This is a game for crying outloud, and we make BN work look like it's a job! Since inactive BN would be a thing, the listing should also keep track of which BN is active allow to sort by active/inactive for easy finding.

Crazy aside, we are indeed not making it exciting enough for BN's. I think there should be something encouraging them similiar to what drives players to play this game now-a-days. Remember that new BN's dont have the same passion for modding as the current QAT's for instance. Moreover, we are discouraging them by putting so much weight onto them right now. I don't know how such system would work, but any incentive is better than no incentive..

I'd like to hear your thoughts on how crazy this. Other than that, I have no idea. I'd like to help however I can whenever I can if possible
Actually there's a BNG ranking before. . .
abraker
Global Moderator
8,296 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
There is some kind of difference between a statistic, numbers that keep track of something, and values others are competing for. The difference, I think, is how it is done and what it is used for
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
I honestly don't think making BNs a competitive system is a good idea. Any time you create competition, some people will want to find a way to get the most out of the system with the least amount of work. Cliques of BNs and mappers will form and these groups will be largely independent of eachother (this is already true, see comments mentioning favoritism). Since these groups will mostly be independent, it will be easy for them to pass maps that aren't as polished as they should be through the process with minimal oversight (you can't realistically expect QATs to catch every map with problems).

Now, on the topic of language barriers: if a mapper ignores or denies a mod due to not understanding it, I almost think that should have some sort of penalty. If someone mods your map, but you do not understand them, you need to ask them to clarify.

Additionally, I think that if a mapper is aggressive towards their modders, there should be some sort of penalty. Perhaps make it so that the map that was modded is unable to be pushed forward in the process for a certain amount of time (this should be a relatively long period, since something like 1 month isn't likely to delay a map being ranked by any significant amount of time, nor will it likely deter the mapper from being aggressive towards their modders). Maybe something along the lines of 3 months? The reason I bring this up is that I've seen quite a few cases where someone mods a map, but the mapper disagrees with them and becomes abusive towards the modder.

I definitely agree with the idea of making guides for mapping styles, and I have a few suggestions for how those should be implemented. First, I think that any guide should be posted to the wiki, not a forum post (that way anyone can update it in the future without requiring forum mod privileges in the case that the original poster becomes inactive or unable/unwilling to edit their forum post). I also think that the writing should be a collaborative effort between many community members. For example, I think that even if the guides are written in english (although ideally they should be translated to other languages as well), mappers who do not speak english should be given a chance to contribute through someone who can help translate their ideas.

EDIT: also ztrot, you should check out the guide linked in my signature: http://www.cosmovibe.com/ncguide/ it was written for a different game, but it's general enough that most of the ideas apply to osu!mania just as well as any other VSRG.
puxtu
2,926 posts
Joined August 2013
puxtu
Less talk, more action.
As long as no one is circlejerking with their maps, I'm fine with any terms and conditions in modding or ranking system.
Abraxos
855 posts
Joined October 2014
Abraxos
posting in legendary thread

puxtu wrote:

Less talk, more action.
As long as no one is circlejerking with their maps, I'm fine with any terms and conditions in modding or ranking system.
tru fam 10/10


Bobbias wrote:

I definitely agree with the idea of making guides for mapping styles, and I have a few suggestions for how those should be implemented. First, I think that any guide should be posted to the wiki, not a forum post (that way anyone can update it in the future without requiring forum mod privileges in the case that the original poster becomes inactive or unable/unwilling to edit their forum post). I also think that the writing should be a collaborative effort between many community members. For example, I think that even if the guides are written in english (although ideally they should be translated to other languages as well), mappers who do not speak english should be given a chance to contribute through someone who can help translate their ideas.

EDIT: also ztrot, you should check out the guide linked in my signature: http://www.cosmovibe.com/ncguide/ it was written for a different game, but it's general enough that most of the ideas apply to osu!mania just as well as any other VSRG.
i guess bobbias just hit the nail on the head on this one. although the guide in it of itself is kinda wordy and there are a couple of pretty irrelevant sections, it still does the job pretty well as a general mapping guide, maybe even a modding guide if you stretch that word wide enough.

to me, i feel as if it isnt the problem of not really having enough BNs for every mapper to clamor over, rather than it is about stepping up the standard of the general modding scene. when i first started modding for mania i had absolutely no idea how to do it (i still dont tbhimosmdh) , and after digging i only managed to find a few obscure posts talking about the basics of it, i.e. how to link timing points and other rudimentary things. it would really be nice to have a wikipage that goes into more detail than what we currently have, and maybe even a dedicated mania #modhelp place where anyone can ask questions related to mania modding/mapping.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
sometimes I feel like abraker's points are so abstract and unrealistic that his posts could do well as modern art.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,296 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
I want to help, I am try to think of solutions, and what are you doing? There is no room for hate here. Please be mindful of that each person has their their own way of thinking and approaching the problem. Be constructive and be polite. Bobbias made a good argument against my idea which still leaves me thinking. This is a difficult problem to solve and it's best we work together to solve it.

In regards to the idea about guides, yes I do agree that we are lacking intructional content on how to make good maps. However, these will likely appeal to novice BN and would be generally ignored by typical players who are just starting out casually. Don't expect them to study this. Remember that BN is an already a time consuming position. I would expect a player who wants to start out as a BN to gradually learn this stuff. Requiring to read guides and taking time to watch videos may turn a good chunk of players wanting to be BN away, leaving only dedicated players fit for BN. I am trying to figure out how to make this easy for people starting out and how to make this entertaining
lenpai
Beatmap Nominator
1,772 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai
Just thought of something. Rough idea but w/e

Considering the diversity of mania, we could accept specalized ppl to the scene. Ignoring what they lack and instead consider what they are really good at / knowledgeable on.

Which leads to my rough idea where BN (or rather, the bubbling and qualifying system) should be more of a collaborative effort than an effort of two people (who at certain occassion PM other modders on timing issues, snaps, and w/e)

What if instead of:
Person A checks map for bubble
Person B checks map for qualify
Qualify woohoo

Do this instead:
Person A (possibly a BN trainee) says "hey i checked this map and i think this is good enough"
Some ppl check and agree its good (if not says that the map above must be modded more / redone)
Person B checks timing and metadata
Person C checks HS and SV
Person D checks easier diffs ( or meta keys )
Person E checks harder diffs (or anti meta keys)
Person F (maybe QAT or current BN) decides it's good and qualifies

Insert the bubbling somewhere and the process could be not this long.

Eh yeah

Stuff:

1. People who aren't directly working for mania can help
2. Specialization gives way to people who may be good at modding but hates "insert ranking necessity and technicality"
3. Breaking down to what a person wants to check = less unwanted work
4. No competition(?)
5. The model i provided can be a thing for the 30 days BN thing
6. Possibly the best or worst thing


Idk, was just a thought while I was commuting. Any thoughts? Additions?
abraker
Global Moderator
8,296 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
I like this idea. BN specialization may indeed take the weight off some BN's shoulders. I just want to add that perhaps allow BN to switch specialization like from SV to timing or etc if they want to once a month. Allowing it any time would make this no different than the current system and I don't see why making permanent specialization is a good idea. Also allow BN to take on multiple specializations if they so wish.
Halogen-
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
574 posts
Joined September 2009
Halogen-
The problem with doing this is that the required distribution/division of responsibilities forces a much larger team to be present in order to get a single piece of content ranked. The issue with inactivity is now being counter-acted by a much higher required team involvement.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,296 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
I like to think that getting more BN is a prequisite for this idea to work rather than "there is not enough BN, therefore this is a bad idea". This idea is similiar to my idea of a tier system, so I'll hold on to it as it appeals to me.
Halogen-
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
574 posts
Joined September 2009
Halogen-

abraker wrote:

I like to think that getting more BN is a prequisite for this idea to work rather than "there is not enough BN, therefore this is a bad idea". This idea is similiar to my idea of a tier system, so I'll hold on to it as it appeals to me.
Who is this responding to? My response was targeted to Lenfried -- and yes, you're more than entitled to hold onto your opinion (as is everyone else), but you guys need to have a bit more forethought than "we need to add BNs" or "we need to change the system". Without a proper division of labor, the same thing is going to happen and repeat itself. How many times do you want to have to cry out for fixing a system? I think that one time is one time too many, but while we're all here, we should come to a solution that is actually functional for the long term.
lenpai
Beatmap Nominator
1,772 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai
I do acknowledge that to be the major flaw of the idea as to which is why i posted at the hopes of it possibly being a base model, reference, or whatever for something better
Halogen-
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
574 posts
Joined September 2009
Halogen-

Lenfried- wrote:

I do acknowledge that to be the major flaw of the idea as to which is why i posted at the hopes of it possibly being a base model, reference, or whatever for something better
Yeah, I understand. It's certainly not a bad idea at all in concept (in my opinion) -- having different groups of people doing subsets of things that are more comfortable to them is a good step in the right direction logically.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
I also agree that specializing people into specific roles sounds like a good way to divide labor, assuming there's a large number of BNs to spread this work out. Consider that multiple people for each role will be necessary to prevent burnout from overwork, and to create redundancy so that if one or two BNs for a specific role happen to go inactive it won't completely break the system.

Another reason I think it's a good idea is because it will allow for more people to become BNs, since it takes less knowledge about patterning and map structure to check things like timing, hitsounds, metadata, etc. It will allow the BNs who do actually understand the more subjective concepts to focus on that work rather than wasting time checking the objective details.

The most important prerequisite for this to work though is a GREATLY expanded BN group compared to it's current size. And something I haven't seen discussed yet is how you would keep some sort of control and oversight over the entire BN system. What sort of organizational structure works best for an expanded BN group? How do we structure the admission system to ensure that new BNs are qualified for the position? How do we ensure that we have a well balanced number of BNs for each position?

Also important to consider is the current situation is a) we lack a reasonable number of BNs given the overall amount of work for them, and b) the BNs we do have are often inactive. A sudden change to a new system will completely change many things at once and we need to be ready to take control, modify our ideas, and keep a continuing dialog about the changes as they are implemented. If we don't, it's easy to end up in a different situation where we are once again complaining about a broken system. If things don't work out the way we expect them to, we need to be able to come up with possible alternatives or changes to try to counteract whatever unexpected consequences arise.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
This system can be fairly easy to simulate on a smaller scale by the community if enough people - including non-BN users who are good at checking one specific thing - are willing to try it out. I think Lenfried's got a neat idea there and it is something I really want to see live to know whether it works or not. We'd only need a few mapsets - with their respective mappers' agreement - and a dozen of normal users volunteers to give it a try, along with a couple actual BNs. I for one would be totally in. A simple Trello could be all we need for all I know. The only issue I see here is that, in case it ever ends up working nicely, having that system apply for every mapset calls for a pretty huge revamp of the ranking process (again), which ends up affecting the other modes as well - I can hardly imagine such a system officially only supported for o!m, hence why representatives of the other modes should give it a go as well.

I'm probably thinking too far ahead, but so far this has been the only suggestion with which we do not actually need official support to set up and try out at first (that being said help from the higher ups is of course welcome), and it should be simple enough to get it to work given we have enough people sticking around to start the experiment.

That would solve the immediate need of teaching BNs how to be, well, BNs altogether by writing up modding or mapping or whatever guides you can come up with, not to mention learning all of this stuff is pretty time consuming. Guides are good to have, but having them as options for users and "specialized BNs" to expand their knowledge without the former being forced upon the latter could be the right (or wrong who knows) way to proceed.
Kruzon
1,023 posts
Joined December 2013
Kruzon

Bobbias wrote:

EDIT: also ztrot, you should check out the guide linked in my signature: http://www.cosmovibe.com/ncguide/ it was written for a different game, but it's general enough that most of the ideas apply to osu!mania just as well as any other VSRG.

agreed, you might want to replace current how-to-map-mania wiki with this one instead, or at least, stickied somewhere in osumania forum. diversity of mapping style aside, new players should at least know the basic essence of mania mapping, pronto
LastExceed
Master of the Fade
394 posts
Joined March 2015
LastExceed
offer bonuses for being a BN
I really like this idea! How about free osu!supporter for BNs?
Evening
2,464 posts
Joined December 2012
Evening

LastExceed wrote:

offer bonuses for being a BN
I really like this idea! How about free osu!supporter for BNs?
YEA! (that'd be cool though)
Kruzon
1,023 posts
Joined December 2013
Kruzon
but that won't be effective for long term tho, also not that much boost of morale, excluding the dedicated ones c:

well, easier way to recruit bn is probably by promising them certain fame, ie forum title might be worthy enough for players to venture the realm of bn

or maybe make kinky badge for bn idk but that might works don't spank me mommy
Fubukicat
970 posts
Joined February 2012
Fubukicat
Give Bn red names tbh
*i'm not even here don't mind me okay thanks*
juankristal
osu! Alumni
1,408 posts
Joined August 2010
juankristal

LastExceed wrote:

offer bonuses for being a BN
I really like this idea! How about free osu!supporter for BNs?
The thing about that is that most of the BN's can AFK or just quit and still be supporters. I dont think we should give rewards to the BNs in general, I do believe we just have to fix some stuff for mania and make people feel interested of being part of it (we all know it wont happend but some really cool mappers just dont want to map here because of hitsounding :D)
Deimos
802 posts
Joined April 2012
Deimos

juankristal wrote:

The thing about that is that most of the BN's can AFK or just quit and still be supporters.
So like GMTs/QATs?
juankristal
osu! Alumni
1,408 posts
Joined August 2010
juankristal

Deimos wrote:

juankristal wrote:

The thing about that is that most of the BN's can AFK or just quit and still be supporters.
So like GMTs/QATs?
BN's are not forced to be modding all day or iconing all day. QATs and GMTs are forced to be either moderating or checking beatmaps. There is a difference.
Feerum
osu! Alumni
2,042 posts
Joined August 2014
Feerum

juankristal wrote:

BN's are not forced to be modding all day or iconing all day. QATs and GMTs are forced to be either moderating or checking beatmaps. There is a difference.
GMT are not forced to checking Maps :o
QAT's doing that Map stuff, GMT that moderating stuff, right? o:
Rumia-
2,513 posts
Joined July 2012
Rumia-

Bobbias wrote:

Also important to consider is the current situation is a) we lack a reasonable number of BNs given the overall amount of work for them, and b) the BNs we do have are often inactive. A sudden change to a new system will completely change many things at once and we need to be ready to take control, modify our ideas, and keep a continuing dialog about the changes as they are implemented. If we don't, it's easy to end up in a different situation where we are once again complaining about a broken system. If things don't work out the way we expect them to, we need to be able to come up with possible alternatives or changes to try to counteract whatever unexpected consequences arise.
pretty much agreeing with this.

juankristal wrote:

The thing about that is that most of the BN's can AFK or just quit and still be supporters. I dont think we should give rewards to the BNs in general, I do believe we just have to fix some stuff for mania and make people feel interested of being part of it (we all know it wont happend but some really cool mappers just dont want to map here because of hitsounding :D)
they could just revoke the supporter/nominating power if they afk for x(exceed) amount of time . besides they dont really have any moderating powers other than iconing so it shouldnt matter much

juankristal wrote:

BN's are not forced to be modding all day or iconing all day. QATs and GMTs are forced to be either moderating or checking beatmaps. There is a difference.
they may have to moderate channels but i dont see they check maps everyday nowadays. implying that we are lacking activites of BN , so QAT activities is reduced , too , since QATs check maps that have been qualified by BNs , normal modding are up to each own . they arent enforced.

in anyhow in my opinion we just need something to motivate these BNs (not supposedly to be free supporters,
maybe bring back BN ranking and points stuffs might do even if its just a little) to do their job properly and consistently , pushing maps forward / polishing maps arent easy tasks and the request must have been a lot ,it do need a lot lot lot lots of motivation .
at the same time i dont mean it to be some sort of competitive , just a marking points that shows their work is good enough.
i do not know what the current BN system offers ,so please correct me if im wrong.I;ve been away from the team for a year now

some modders are actually good with just saying move 3 delete 2 ctrl h ctrl j , they just dont know how to explain because of language barriers/lack of communication skills

things that actually demotivate them are actually because checking osu!mania maps are a bit heavier work than other modes because of the specific hitsound volumes and keysounds , understanding between various of other game style charting ,miscommunicating/misunderstanding between styles occurs.

LastExceed wrote:

offer bonuses for being a BN
" offering bonus " is not the right word , giving them a feeling of appreciation of their hardworks i think words it better. the team was once name Beatmap Appreciation Team.

giving a name color does affects motivation too , even if its just on forum , it displays on their profile , so it does feel like being appreciated instead of the nominator badge that only appears in map threads was not really satisfacting, those were the time heh.

nvm why am i even writing this. oh my , its been almost a year since i touch this game mode xD
AncuL
1,114 posts
Joined March 2013
AncuL
community checking or such should be helpful as people who can mod really well arent really active.
Deimos
802 posts
Joined April 2012
Deimos

juankristal wrote:

Deimos wrote:

So like GMTs/QATs?
BN's are not forced to be modding all day or iconing all day. QATs and GMTs are forced to be either moderating or checking beatmaps. There is a difference.
And? There shouldn't be any differences. GMTs are moderating the forum and/or chat. QATs are checking Qualified Beatmaps if they fit the quality to be Ranked. BNs also spend their time to improve Beatmaps to get high quality Beatmaps ranked for the community. When you get inactive you will get moved out of the group and that's probably for all groups. At the end everyone of them is spending their time to improve the game and community and that's not worth a supporter tag which only costs 4$ a month?

PS: Also I think no one is forcing you to be a GMT, you should be free as well to stop moderating like a BN to stop modding.
juankristal
osu! Alumni
1,408 posts
Joined August 2010
juankristal

Deimos wrote:

And? There shouldn't be any differences. GMTs are moderating the forum and/or chat. QATs are checking Qualified Beatmaps if they fit the quality to be Ranked. BNs also spend their time to improve Beatmaps to get high quality Beatmaps ranked for the community. When you get inactive you will get moved out of the group and that's probably for all groups. At the end everyone of them is spending their time to improve the game and community and that's not worth a supporter tag which only costs 4$ a month?

PS: Also I think no one is forcing you to be a GMT, you should be free as well to stop moderating like a BN to stop modding.
You are not seeing my point at all... You can lave the GMT for sure but you have actual responsabilities in the moderation team, something that you dont have in the BN. Yeah, you should be iconing 3 maps per month but you are not forced to be a bubble machine. You are not forced to check the maps that you dislike. As a moderator or QAT you have to check even if you dont want.

Anyways, why are we discusing this in a thread like that? Lets just talk about BN's.
SpectorDG
1,167 posts
Joined June 2014
SpectorDG
need more active BN's and best quality ranked maps
AyeAries
880 posts
Joined June 2015
AyeAries
i hope for more active BN's and QAT's for mania :D
Arzenvald
4,033 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
hi

just passing by, don't mind my inactivity in BN stuff..
is there any significant progress for this newer BNs & QATs development? also.. have a nice day!

_(:3」∠)_
JoelCN
1 post
Joined May 2015
JoelCN

xanibabe wrote:

Although this isn't particularly about BN's, I want to point out that become a mania modder is very difficult in the beginning. There aren't a lot of guides for modding specific to mania, and so it's hard to know exactly what to do or what the editor is capable of doing.
edit: also the current mapping meta is very conflicting, as there is a clash of BMS, o2jam, stepmania, etc, and people who are new to VSRG
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